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Wikileaks Files Show 'Truth' On Iraq: Assange
LONDON -- WikiLeaks' founder Julian Assange said Saturday that hundreds of thousands of classified US military documents leaked by the website showed the 'truth' on the Iraq war.
Wikileaks founder Julian Assange speaks during a news conference about the internet release of secret documents about the Iraq War, in London October 23, 2010. Wikileaks released nearly 400,000 classified U.S. files on the Iraq war on Friday, some detailing gruesome cases of prisoner abuse by Iraqi forces that the U.S. military knew about but did not seem to investigate.
REUTERS/Luke MacGregor "This disclosure is about the truth," Assange told a news conference in London after WikiLeaks released 400,000 documents which give a grim snapshot of the Iraq war, including showing the abuse of Iraqi civilians by Iraqi security forces.
"The attack on the truth by war begins long before war starts and continues long after a war ends," Assange added. Profile of the WikiLeaks founder
"We hope to correct some of that attack on the truth that occurred before the war, during the war and which has continued on since the war officially concluded."
WikiLeaks' spokesman Kristinn Hrafnsson told the same news conference that it would also soon release a further batch of 15,000 secret files on the war in Afghanistan.
The heavily redacted files released Friday contain graphic accounts of torture, civilian killings and Iran's hand in the Iraq war, giving a grisly picture of years of blood and suffering following the 2003 US invasion to oust Saddam Hussein.
The Iraqi government said the documents "did not contain any surprises". Related article: Wikileaks files held 'no surprises'
Many of the documents, which span from January 2004 to December 2009, chronicle claims of abuse by Iraqi security forces, while others appear to show that US troops did nothing to intervene to stop the abuse.
The documents comprise the second such release from the controversial website, which accused the United States of "war crimes" and earlier released some 92,000 similar secret military files detailing operations in Afghanistan.
WikiLeaks made the files available to selected newspapers and TV channels and then, just before their publication, invited journalists for a three-hour lock-in preview in London. Facts about WikiLeaks
In one report, US military personnel describe detainee abuse by Iraqis at a facility in Baghdad that is holding 95 detainees in a single room where they are "sitting cross-legged with blindfolds, all facing the same direction."
It says "many of them bear marks of abuse to include cigarette burns, bruising consistent with beatings and open sores... according to one of the detainees questioned on site, 12 detainees have died of disease in recent weeks."
Other reports describe Iraqis beating prisoners and civilian women being killed at US military checkpoints.
The Guardian newspaper said the leak showed "US authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally unpunished."
It added that "more than 15,000 civilians died in previously unknown incidents," going on to say that "US and UK officials have insisted that no official record of civilian casualties exists but the logs record 66,081 non-combatant deaths out of a total of 109,000 fatalities."
The Guardian said WikiLeaks is thought to have obtained the electronic archive from the "same dissident US army intelligence analyst" who leaked 90,000 logs about the war in Afghanistan this year. WikiLeaks has not revealed its source.
Al-Jazeera concluded that major findings of the leaked papers included a US military cover-up of Iraqi state-sanctioned torture and "hundreds" of civilians deaths at manned American checkpoints.
On Iran's role in the conflict, the secret US files show Tehran waging a shadow war with US troops in Iraq, with a firefight erupting on the border and Tehran allegedly using militias to kill and kidnap American soldiers.
The documents describe Iran arming and training Iraqi hit squads to carry out attacks on coalition troops and Iraqi government officials, with the elite Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps suspected of playing a crucial role, the Times and the Guardian reported, citing the files.
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemned "in the most clear terms" the leaks of any documents putting Americans at risk, while the Pentagon warned that releasing secret military documents could endanger US troops and Iraqi civilians.
Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said the documents were "essentially snapshots of events, both tragic and mundane, and do not tell the whole story."
A spokesman for the Iraqi rights ministry said: "The report did not contain any surprises, because we had already mentioned many things that happened, including at Abu Ghraib prison, and many cases involving US forces."
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185 Comments so far
Show AllEverything you have said is right on target ! You are so right. Now the problem with that is, what in the Hell can we do, if so many of our fellow Americans are suckered, into believing that there is one speck, of Nobility or Good Reason for one Damn thing we are doing, in the Wars or at Home. These Americans really believe in killing all those poor innocent people, and letting the Corporations, and Insurance companies ,the Bush Third Riech, and the whole bit of breaking every rule of the Geneva Convention, and almost bragging about it.We are not apologetic at all !
I bet this will barely even get very much MSM attention, they will phase it out quickly, so as not to let to many people learn what's really been happening. That is why there is no footage shown on this war to American civilians .This has turned into like a takeover by the Mob or something. We can't even protest, they will shoot to kill... they recently had an episode in Seattle, where the soldiers were told that they would have live ammo, and might be ordered to shoot the protesters !! This is getting way out of hand. They are ALL corrupt, not one Politician is clean...all the Corporations break mad rules, and regulations, and many don't pay their taxes, amounting in billions each year, and yet the goverment never goes after them !
We are letting our nieghbors' homes burn down to the ground, with live pets inside, and millions think that is just fine. I don't think like those Americans. I know that the War is Illigal, and a Terrorist act on our part. I know the Banks and Corporations have done us a great injustice, and broke many laws, and no body went to jail. I know the Christian fanatics are using our Army, and Airforce to try and convert the Iraqi people... to save the souls of the wretched creatures, this whole thing has my head spinning. Americans are acting just like the Germans did, right before Hitler killed 28,000,000 people. They all went nuts, and I know we are different, the people are far away and we can't see them... but still, I think we are acting really wierd.I am not proud of my Country at this time. Or many of my fellow countrymen, and how they are misbehaving.
This is the real news about Wikileaks: the people yawn. This is wonderful news for the PTB. Any atrocity can be made public. Any crime can be divulged. The important thing is that those who divulge them be tracked down and punished.
What does the glorious NYTimes have to say about the subject today? A smear story on Assange entitled “WikiLeaks Founder on the Run, Trailed by Notoriety.”
And who’s going to bring the US to task? No one has yet. Nobody will.
It’s shocking how openly indifferent our government officials are concerning the publication of their vile misdeeds, and how little people care. And it’s shocking how many people really do see five fingers when only four are up. And it’s wretched to be one that can’t, and heart-wrenching to think of the life that awaits our children. I talk to them daily, these college freshmen I teach, and sometimes I don’t even want to try to wake them up from their techno-induced slumber, their American dreams, their indifference to suffering and corruption. They don’t know the media air they breathe is toxic: let them sleep on.
If they do wake up, what hope do we have to give them? The banksters and the military have stolen your country, and their criminality is rewarded. You’ve been “educated” into stupidity. The jobs are all going overseas, and you are essentially f—ked. Our military is a terrorist organization, but possibly your best opportunity—you can’t add fractions yet, and you want to be a forensic criminologist? Like on a TV show you watch? You don’t have the rights you think you have. Your “liberal” president, a “Constitutional scholar,” has an assassination list.
Today, Glenn Greenwald addresses the NY Times, and their reporters, calling them to task for their unscrupulous faux reporting.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/
Elizabeth: Thanks for your post!
I know the following is off-topic, however, I wanted you to know:
I am very glad to run across your post. Last week, we had a very deep conversation about health care, and all issues related, and I want you to know that I followed up and am currently reading Robert Whitaker's book, Mad In America -- whew! What an indictment of the medical community, particularly the mental health experts. The fact that the frontal lobes shrink during the usage of antipsychotics (drugs) should concern every single person in this country.
Thanks, Elizabeth!
Following, is the link to a talk by Robert Whitaker about his recently published book, History of an Epidemic:
http://www.booktv.org/Program/11502/Anatomy+of+an+Epidemic+Magic+Bullets+Psychiatric+Drugs+and+the+Astonishing+Rise+of+Mental+Illness+in+America.aspx
Thanks for the Greenwald link. I'm glad you're reading Whitaker and passing him along.
ELIZABETH: I hear and feel the conundrum you face. I was once a classroom teacher, too. I will only add this: the night was dark before Edison came up with the means to keep it lit. Possibly cliche, but times are always darkest right before the dawn; and paradigm-shifting events tend to show up just when the old systems are imploding. Necessity acting the role of Mother of invention.
Truly what exists before us seems beyond what can be fixed or healed. Sometimes small acts of love and kindness reverberate up the human chain in ways we fail to see. And sometimes an invention shows up out of the blue that alters the paradigm in a way we previously could not foresee. There are many good people, and many who could be/act in a caring way, had not media and its luminaries used powerful tools of behavior modification to deceive them. Redemption is possible. For those who can be enlightened, and for all the innocents living in spots the military neanderthals have set their sights upon, Let There Be Peace... and deliverance. And may this petition to powers of Universal Justice catalzye acts of radical courage, and assist us, persons of conscience, in our efforts to bring forth a healthier society.
Another World is Possible. The World Social Forum understands this empowering truth. It is spreading, and consciousness wields a power of its own.
Yes, Siouxrose. I know you’re essentially right. As hopeless as the task may seem, one must always continue to try. And I do. And some few students come back to me and say, “you have made me a freak,” and then they hug me. “Thanks to you,” they say, “I want to know what is really going on, and I can’t find anyone I can talk to. I question the stories I’m told, and everyone laughs at me.”
Ah, the taste of America. We are the worst sort of barbarians, most of us.
I can only try to activate my little classes. It is better than nothing.
Siouxrose, please, Edison did not light the world, did not get the motors going. That was Nicola Tesla, inventor or A/C power, wireless communication, much of what we call modern technology. Never heard of him? Now that’s an interesting story.
ELIZABETH: I am aware of Tesla and that his theories were considered quite controversial. I always heard that it was Edison who came up with the technology for incandescence.
Keep speaking truth to your students. As an English teacher 20 years ago, I had a lot of freedom to open the class to compelling discussions. These were easily linked to the required reading lists; and then teachers were allowed some room for reading suggestions of their own. In the literature textbook our school purchased was the story, "The Devil and Daniel Webster." It's interesting, and in my view, a sort of watered down version of Arthur Miller's, "The Crucible."
I don't like to use the "we" pronoun and lump myself with the barbarians. I think a very specific sensibility has been inculcated using Hollywood, fundamentalist religion, macho contact sports, and even the meat-based American diet to render a population responsive to the most raw, primitive behavioral cues. Many of us, and I suspect you are one among them, have managed to thus far fly "Over The Cuckoo's Nest." We is a frame that lends itself to passive acceptance of that which our souls rail against. Much is done without my consent. My low income pretty much means no taxes, and I try to leave a small footprint honoring the adage, "Live simply that others may simply live."
Assange walks out of CNN interview:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/23/julian-assange-walks-out-_n_772837.html
This man is a hero to me and I feel bad that I have done so little while he sticks his neck out and dedicates time and effort to do something that benefits us all. I do not often feel this kind of admiration for anyone. I am immensely grateful to this Assenge individual. Like I said, he is a hero to me.
Ditto ! Also whomever got the info in the first place ! One of our bravest !!!
Brian Manning. hard to imagine what he must have been subject to, knowing those who have been detaining him.
The person accused of this (as far as I am aware, the only evidence against him is hearsay) is Bradley Manning.
From what Assange has stated, due to the infrastructure of WikiLeaks, he has no way of knowing if Bradley was the source of the information or not.
For someone quick to call others a shill, you seem to be spreading disinformation here.
Did Wikileaks find any files on Rape of Detainees and Honour Killings thereafter?
This man should win the Nobel Peace Prize...if that honor is actually legit and not manipulated for political purposes like every other accolade handed down by the governments of the world.
I came across this in "The New Yorker"
No Secrets
Julian Assange’s mission for total transparency.
by Raffi Khatchadourian
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian?currentPage=1
interesting read
thanks for the link...........very interesting indeed.
thank you for the link. i thoroughly enjoyed it.
can anyone shed light on the writer himself, in terms of his credibility?
This truth?
War is BAD!, People do BAD thing in BAD war!
WOW... Who knew!
Will members of congress send their children and grandchildren to fight in our ever expanding wars around the world?
This Pentagon hack really knows how to blow smoke up people's booties. Gee give us a break! This Geoff Morrell is quite a character. Then we have Slick Willy's wife putting out more hot air and propaganda to defend the indefensible. She should resign in disgrace like that GOP president elected in 1968 and her hero. Hiizilla Rodam Clinton is really a closet case Republican. Oh, but then so is the current US president. The last time we had a real Democrat in the White House was back in January 1981 when Jimmy Carter was finishing his term as president.
AD
As much as I agree that Hillary Clinton made a grossly insensitive remark about the loss of all these lives in the Mideast, I do, also, agree that revealing all these classified documents do, indeed, cause danger to our troops. There are many, I am sure, who will now feel justified in retaliating against American soldiers. These American soldiers may be entirely innocent of any of the atrocities made since 2003.
mh018
"also, agree that revealing all these classified documents do, indeed, cause danger to our troops."
First so what? The leaks reveal torture, rape and murder not of soldiers but of the local people who live where we occupy their homeland. Of course they will be pissed that we did this.
This is an illegal war we do not belong there. You want to protect the soldier bring the fucker home.
The leaks tell of horrid acts of human depravity and you suggest that that be secret so that you deprive the family that lost a woman or child of knowing that a foreign invader was responsible for their torture, rape or murder to protect the perpetrator of the crime?
What church do you attend?
Who puts the American troops into more danger, those that report on what they have done, or those that sent them over there and compel them to stay there?
Robert Fisk has an excellent article on this latest leak in the Independent today.
I trust Fisk and he has a perspective that i certainly couldn't have. The article is called "The Shaming of America".
It is really great to live in a country that lies to its citizens, crooks run the banks, corporations and politics and smoke is blown up our butts touting freedom and liberty.
Wikileaks, freedom fighter and upholder of truth!
The wikileaks leak is intended to keep troops in Iraq.
http://www.pressherald.com/news/leaked-iraq-files-portray-weakened-divided-nation_2010-10-24.html
I note that William S. Cohen has ownership interest in this newpaper.
.
Just to respond briefly to this painful comment thread:
1) The plain truth about historical and ongoing massive crimes of the USA is plain. We don't require some "truth" or some "leak" or any sort of revelation to make it any more plain, whether from "truthers" or from Wikileaks. This does not "prove" that "truthers" or Wikileaks are (or are not) spreading truth or disinformation. It does mean that it is NOT "crucial" to prove that they are (or are not).
2) i do not believe official US government stories about anything. This does not mean i believe any other specific story about anything either. Just because you are denouncing a bunch of obvious liars, does not prove you are spouting truth.
3) Dig through the CD archives and find hundreds of claims that "If you don't (or do) believe this (or that) you must be an agent a shill or a dupe." This claim is made from many angles, from contradictory sides of arguments, and by persons with very different world views. If i do not believe your story, that only proves i do not believe your story. It is obviously almost certain that agents shills and dupes are among us. i don't need to work out everyone's identity.
Myself, i'm not following down any rabbit holes. The criminal conspiracy of the US government and military must be ended. This understanding does NOT require any "litmus test" of belief in any specific disputed piece of "truth." Arguing insistently about this is a huge waste of energy.
very sophisticated. NOT. you're clueless, without knowing which end is up or down. what makes you so sure about the criminality of the US, if you're not sure about anything????????
Where did i say i'm "not sure about anything"? i said, and mean, no such thing.
Just because i take no position on "nano-thermite" - or on Julian Assange's status as a CIA plant or dupe - in NO WAY means i'm "not sure about anything." It only means, i'm not following down that rabbit hole.
i do not need to know if Assange's leaks are part of, or manipulated by, a psy-ops program. i know plenty of undisputed plain truths about the vast ugly horrific ongoing criminality of the US government, out in plain sight, not hidden under some byzantine conspiracy.
Jumping to conclusions, being certain that the only possible explanation for Wikileaks is some deeper operation - no need to go there. And no need to denounce others who don't follow down that rabbit hole.
you clarify or add nothing through your second effort.
Maybe you're just incapable of understanding. Sorry for you.
"Following news of Iran’s remark, condemnation was swift. British Prime Minister Tony Blair expressed “revulsion” and implied that it might be necessary to attack Iran."
(Yes? Blair, The Instigator...the devil-character of the religion he professes to believe in.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Iran's President DID NOT say "Israel must be wiped off the face of the map"
"So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want “wiped from the map”? The answer is: nothing. That’s because the word “map” was never used. The Persian word for map, “nagsheh”, is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase “wipe out” ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran’s President threatened to “wipe Israel off the map”, despite never having uttered the words “map”, “wipe out” or even “Israel”.
THE PROOF:
The full quote translated directly to English:
“The Imam said THIS REGIME occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”.
Word by word translation:
Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).
Here is the full transcript of the speech in farsi, archived on Ahmadinejad’s web site
www.president.ir/farsi/ahmadinejad/speeches/1384/aban-84/840804sahyonizm.htm
Source of article :
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/irans-president-did-not-say-israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map-by-arash-norouzi-2007/
~sc
Ah a cool breeze. Thank you for the use of your education. Good comment.
Chuck October 24th, 2010 6:02 pm
Even if it was necessary to get Saddam Hussein, why must we destroy their infrastructure and kill innocent men, women, and children?"
It was not necessary for **IRAQ** to get rid of Saddam Hussein... those factions that tried to usurp him in Iraq were brutally put down (would happen in America too and other lands, if factions were trying to depose their 'Saddam' and rule their country in the President's or Prime Minister's stead...)
There were NO suicide bombers in Iraq.. there could have been, protesting against Saddam by suicide bombing (of civilians et al) They rose against the FAR, FAR more powerful invaders of their land. .. . The Iraqis started their suicide bombing BECAUSE of the attack of the 'brave and good' America and her allies. Now, the girls are back in burkas.... now they can no longer go to school or university on their bikes, alonside the boys.
Saddam is dead. He died bravely... ONCE HE HEARD OF THE TWIN TOWERS, of '9/11', he KNEW his death knell was sounding.... the reason for 9/11.
~sc
on what evidence do you say he is dead?
the man in the trial was not Saddam, as was made obvious when he made the mistake of smiling.
Keep in mind, dental records are as much an identifier as fingerprints, and it does not take a professional to notice that the bad teeth of the guy in the trial are not the same teeth that Saddam often bared before the cameras.
Gosh, the level of detail and perfect record keeping of the American corporatist Empire almost matches that of the Nazi fascist Empire's detailed record keeping.
Oh, that's right ---- a corporatist Empire IS a fascist Empire. That's why Benito Mussolini himself said that fascism should really be called corporatism.
Rumor has it that the chain gun camera video from the earlier Wikileaks release is going to be used in an up-coming FOX video game.
As Chris Hedges compelling notes in his books, including his newest and incomparable "Death of the Liberal Class", imperialist wars for profit are beyond the pale and can never be justified by supposedly humanitarian rational for violence ---- wars which the gutless and totally complicit 'Liberal Class' and particularly the Democratic Party have been WELL PAID by the ruling elite corporate/financial/militarist EMPIRE to justify to us even more smoothly than overt fascists like Bush could..
Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine
"US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemned the leaks of any documents putting Americans at risk, while the Pentagon warned that releasing secret military documents could endanger US troops and Iraqi civilians."
The Fascist USA puts us ALL at risk
@Justice Arcs
I have spent far too much time tonight reading your drivel about how the relatively insignificant (my words) mention of Iran in the over 400,000 pages of top secret documents released by Wikileaks is evidence that Wikileaks is either being duped by or is actually complicit with the government in building a case for attacking Iran, while at the same time trying to convince us that the overwhelming wealth of the information released, which details actual abuses committed by coalition troops in Iraq, is just window dressing meant to draw all of us ignorant folks into their trap.
In post after redundant post you have intimated that everyone was already aware of the atrocities taking place in Iraq, yet unaware that the government has been building a case for attacking Iran. According to you, the whole raison d'etre for Wikileaks is as a conspiratorial dupe to plant this obscure seed in the public's mind.
Well excuse me, but I would suggest you have it completely backwards. I think it should be obvious to everyone out there that the government has been building a case for attacking Iran -- and North Korea -- since long before the Iraq war even started, and their media blitz to that end has never abated. Remember Bush and his cronies and their Plan For A New American Century (PNAC)? Remember the Axis of Evil?
From what I have seen there has been far more information fed to the mainstream media since 911 to vilify Iran than there has been information released regarding the atrocities taking place in the either war. In fact, hardly a day has gone by that I haven't seen stories in the media -- mainstream and otherwise -- building the case for attacking both Iran and North Korea, while rarely have I seen any information regarding the abuses taking place at the hands of our military, and even when any such information is released, it has been sugar coated.
What Wikileaks is doing here is incredibly invaluable, not only because they have released such large amounts of previously unknown and/or undocumented information, but more importantly, because the people are now able to see the actual government documents admitting such atrocities -- and so the government is unable to deny the veracity of this information by attributing it to unreliable sources like they normally do. Rather than criticizing Wikileaks, how about doing something positive and writing your representatives and demanding investigation of this unjust war? I am so sick and tired of the negativity that has hijacked this site.
Did you even watch the press conference in London yesterday that this article PRETENDS to report on? I did. The conference itself, which included Daniel Ellsberg of Pentagon Papers fame and others, was much more informative than this article even comes close to being, and I don't think Iran was ever mentioned -- although I could have been taking a leak at the time. But again, even if Iran was mentioned it would be meaningless. We are talking about over 400,000 pages of top secret documents, and it is hardly surprising or conspiratorial that Iran would be included in them -- in fact, it is to be expected.
Also, you stated in one of your earlier posts:
Justice Arcs October 23rd, 2010 12:19 pm
"The fact that the article uses 1/3 of it's length to prepare the people for war with IRAN is what bothers me the most."
Well Justice, I can only assume you are referring to this article, in which case your much espoused adherence to the scientific method lost all credibility with me and showed you for the exaggerator of facts that you are.
Because it was so obvious to me that there was a discrepancy between what you said and the reality of the situation, I ran the article through my word counter. According to my count the article contains 691 words, of which 85 at most were in reference to Iran, which is 12.3%. If counting characters there were 4539 of which 531 pertained to Iran for 11.6%. Since I assume even you realize that 1/3 is 33%, this makes your statement incorrect by a factor of approximately 3. And by the way, in an attempt to be as fair to you as possible I did not include the title, image caption, or copyright in my calculations. If I had, the discrepancy would be even more extreme.
I could go on and on dissecting your flawed logic and inaccurate facts in post after post but it would be a waste of time, as you obviously believe you are so much better educated than the rest of us mere mortals, and you apparently have far too much time on your hands to spew your bullshit.
I personally think that much more would be accomplished in this world if all of the self-righteous individuals who spend endless hours at their keyboards debating conspiracy theories which will never be anything more then that, and also constantly denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with them on ANY subject, would get off their asses and out on the streets and actually protest the wrongs taking place in our society, or put signs in the windows of their home or business and/or in their front yard, or run for local office, or practice ANY other form of visible dissent instead of hiding in the shadows spouting the same old bullshit over and over and over. That is what I have done for the past 40 years, and all of the above, regardless of the price I have had to pay.
VOR
continued from above.....
I ran out of room on my previous comment, but I did want to close by saying that if my comment offends anyone I am sorry. I could have rewritten it but it has been a long day and I am much too tired to do so. I normally sit on the sidelines here and say nothing, and if I do pop up every now and then, I try to not be offensive to anyone -- even when I disagree with them, but there is only so much of this negative crap a person can take day after day when coming to a site that is supposed to be for encouragement and the sharing of COMMON DREAMS!
VOR
I must stand in defense of Justice Arcs, as he is never mean spirited and insulting in his posts, as far as i have ever read them. And he has always been sincere and very civilized. Even when we disagree, as he mentioned - regarding my very different feeling about Assange. And thus i find him to be rather open minded.
peace,
rita
Rita
I have no quarrel with you, but I can't help but wonder if it is possible that you are biased in favor of a friend (relatively speaking) over a total stranger.
I read all of your posts on this thread (and many other threads), and especially remember your earlier exchanges with Justice Arcs -- mainly because I found it somewhat surprising when you answered his questions regarding both Obama and the Kuwait incubator story almost identically as to how I would have answered them. I would say you probably one of the nicest and most reasonable people on this site.
However -- and I am sorry if you see things differently -- but I do not believe there is any way an open minded person can read this entire thread from beginning to end and not see the many places where Justice Arcs has been lees than congenial with others, and that is putting it VERY mildly. In fact, it was his demeaning attitude toward others, like Jim Glover, razomirror, etc., AND the support he was receiving from his fellow "Truthers" along the way -- especially the outrageously condescending comments from reasonisreligion (reasonisreligion October 24th, 2010 7:42 am) and the support those comments received -- that finally triggered my response. If it had simply been a difference of opinion I probably would have remained quiet, as I prefer to remain on the sidelines as I have for years.
As to Obama, I followed him long before he was a candidate for president and knew all along he could not be trusted. I did not fall into the trap of voting for him because he was the "lessor of two evils" or because "I would be throwing my vote away" or the old "it could cost the Democrats the election" crap, because I firmly believe that if I do not vote for the person most closely aligned to my world view and my principles I am not being true to myself -- regardless of their supposed chances of winning. This is how I have voted for over 40 years.
I am also extremely unhappy with most of what Obama has done -- or maybe I should say, not done. On health care the unwillingness to consider single payer and not even having the courage to take a stand on a public option; two milquetoast supreme court justices; the escalation of the war in Afghanistan; a totally ineffective finance bill after Wall Street screwed the American public; and on and on and on. Then again, I have watched countless hours of congressional hearings over the years and there has been absolutely NO compromise from the party of no, and with so many of the Democrats being Republicans in disguise, I also find it hard to put all the blame on Obama like many posters on this site do.
Anyway, I am sorry that our first meeting has been negative, as I have worked my entire life for peace and justice, tolerance, and compromise, and I am certainly not a confrontational person -- yet I refuse to stand by and tolerate intolerance. I will address the remainder of my comments to Justice Arcs.
In Peace
VOR
voiceofreason is not "lying", just pointing what you are doing and you don't like it.
Sorry, you post too much and change your position too fast for me to keep up.
But your bully attitude has not changed at all.
Calling me a liar and those who are turned off by your insulting method of discussion tells me much about your "integrity".
Well then, just find somebody else to help you with your "sense of honor".
Justice Arcs
Other than referring to your posts as drivel, and the fact that I found them to be redundant, I never made denigrating remarks about you as a person as you have done to me. I simply disagreed with pretty much everything you said, and pointed out in one case that what you said was specifically incorrect.
You, on the other hand, started out by ridiculing my screen name, and then accosted me by saying:
"Hardly any reason there, mostly personal attacks, exaggerations, distortions, outright lies, and proof of your poor own reading comprehension."
Now I will admit on reflection that I could have used a better choice of words when I referred to your posts as drivel, but that's over and done with. As to being "redundant," that is exactly what your posts become after a while.
In one response to Jim Glover you defended yourself by saying that "When you modify your position over the course of several postings, it is actually deceptive to point to the earlier point of view … and then claim that that is my current position."
Well I am sorry Justice Arcs, but I have not seen any substantive change in your position from your first post to your last. In fact, you seem to concede a point to one person only to restate your previous opinion in different words to another, while your overall theme changes very little. It actually reminds me a lot of Obama talk, but then again, at this point in time I may be so turned off by your attitude that I would be unable to read anything you write without bias.
When I pointed out that you were an "exaggerator of facts," I did so by comparing your exact words (in quotes) with the actual facts, and since you never refuted what I said, there is no way it can be considered anything other than stating the truth! Some times the truth hurts.
The simple fact is this -- you did not provide one single example to back up any of the derogatory remarks you made toward me. You never quoted one thing I said and disputed it factually or logically. You never addressed the complete inaccuracy of your 1/3 statement -- which showed YOU to be the exaggerator, NOT ME. You called me a liar -- about as demeaning a comment as you can make to another, but never showed where I lied about ANYTHING. And you never responded to my question about the press conference, which, if you had watched it, would have explained how the documents were only a first draft of sorts, edited electronically for expediency and consequently heavily redacted in order to err on the side of caution, and how as time allowed the entire 400,000 documents would be edited by real people and re-released.
SO, the plain and simple truth of the matter is that you never specifically addressed anything I said -- not one iota -- you just attacked me. You attacked my name and you attacked my person without ever providing even one specific piece of evidence to back up your claims. THAT is a textbook example of an "ad hominem" attack, and THAT is also what is known as being intellectually dishonest!!! There is no way to debate such a person.
As to how you treat others -- which is what triggered my initial post -- just look back at how you replied to JimGlover, razomirror, and others, and your general attitude of superiority in almost every post on this thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but they are not entitled to insult or belittle those who disagree. You act as if you think you are God's gift to humanity. No one knows everything, and we can all learn from others -- even the dumbest of others if we listen carefully.
When Jim Glover disagreed with you, your immediate retort was, "and if you bothered to read what I did say" -- quite similar to how you felt the need to insult my "reading comprehension." Do you see a pattern here? There is no need for that crap!
You next tell Jim Glover "you have no concept of actual physics involved, nor appreciation for the scientific method. It also demonstrates the lack of critical thinking skills..." That was real diplomatic! NOT
You then continue to insult and denigrate Jim Glover for his beliefs throughout the remainder of that particular thread, when in fact it is you "Truthers" who are in the extreme minority by far -- even amongst progressives. And before anyone gets the wrong opinion, I do not have a problem with "Truthers" -- I have a problem with "Truthers" with an attitude. Just because I do not believe in the official version of 911 does not mean I have to believe yours!
You were also dismissive and ridiculing to razormirror -- RE: razormirror October 23rd, 2010 6:46 pm
In fact, it seems to me that almost every time someone on this thread has disagreed with you, unless it was a friend, you have addressed them in nothing less than a condescending manner, which is why I finally could not handle any more of your better-than-thou bullshit. Of course, you really exposed your true colors in your response to me, when you never tried to refute one thing I said, but instead just spewed 2 lines of insults.
What is really a shame is that there are so many people on Common Dreams who are intelligent, reasonable, courteous, and have a lot to offer, even if I do not always agree with them on everything, yet I am afraid many of them are slowly being driven away. I applaud people like Rita (readytotransform) and Salusa Secundus and the many others on this site who set a good example for communicating with civility.
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continued from above...
I for one am sick and tired of all of the name calling on this site, and even more so, the never ending criticism of the webmasters themselves -- and I have been a member of Common Dreams almost since it's inception, and have followed the threads here almost daily since the comments sections started, so please don't try to tell me these things are not happening. Wake up people before you destroy a good thing. It is hard enough to keep a progressive web site up and running without advertising, and all of the negativity and criticism just drives people away. It is bad enough that we have to deal with the real trolls.
And a few final thoughts for both Justice Arcs and his "Truther" cohort reasonisreligion.
As to my reading comprehension, I make every attempt to put all biases aside and see what is written through the mind of the author. I also readily sacrifice expediency for clarity. Just one quick example -- when I read "War and Peace" a number of years ago, I read two different translations simultaneously, and whenever I found what I felt were discrepancies in the translations, I referred to my Cyrilic version in an attempt to find clarity. This is how I approach everything in life. I rarely go off half-cocked but push me too far and you will get a piece of my mind.
As to my world experience, I have been in ALL 50 states, Canada, Mexico, much of Europe, and Asia. I may live in the country now and choose to live a simple life, but I am not some country bumpkin -- in fact, I would say I was born and raised in view of the World Trade Center except it did not exist at the time. *smile* Both of my parents immigrated from Europe, and my father traveled extensively before coming to this country and spoke 8 languages, so I was raised somewhat differently from many.
When I protested the first invasion of Iraq I was friends with a couple who had protested every war since (and including) WWI, and they opened their extensive library of both WWI and WWII literature to me. When I protested the second invasion of Iraq I stood shoulder to shoulder almost every week with a gentleman who held high a huge flag he and his wife had hand stitched 40 years earlier when protesting the Vietnam war, and we too shared much. I myself have thousands of books in my home, and in addition read online every day.
My point here is simply that I have learned much from many in my life, and so I take great offense with people who think they are better than me just because they may have knowledge in a different area. And more than anything, I am sick and tired of the people who have hijacked this site with their constant negativity. Remember the concept of Ghandi -- that an eye for an eye leaves us both blind. Negativity works the same way. I come here for information and support and not to see people constantly fighting with the very people they should be forming alliances with. The constant name calling has got to stop! For my part in the negativity on this thread I am sorry, but there is only so much bullshit a person can take without exploding.
In closing, I would suggest that we all go back and re-read our own posts every now and then, and consider how we would like it if others were speaking to us in the same manner we have spoken to them.
In Peace
VOR
"Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said the documents were 'essentially snapshots of events, both tragic and mundane, and do not tell the whole story.'"
Yeah, I'll bet "they don't tell the whole story;" there is much more that hasn't come to light--yet. The 400,000 documents is merely the tip of a gigantic iceberg.
The basic intent and purpose of out military should never be underestimated.
I remember well the phrase we had to scream out during my basic training in the Army in response to our platoon sergeant's yell: "WHAT'S THE SPIRIT OF THE BAYONET?!?!?"
Our required response yell: "TO KILL!!! TO KILL!!!