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Hansen: Carbon Offsets Modern Equivalent of Medieval 'Indulgences'
How to Solve the Climate Problem
The following is excerpted from James Hansen's "Storms of My
Grandchildren," the climate scientist's new book about what is
needed to stop global warming.
We have finally arrived at the main story: what we need to do to solve
the climate problem, and how we can save a future for our grandchildren.

People need to make basic changes in the way the live. Countries need to cooperate. Matters as seemingly intractable as population must be addressed. And the required changes must be economically efficient. Such a pathway exists and is achievable.
Let's define what a workable backbone and framework should look like. The essential backbone is a rising price on carbon applied at the source (the mine, wellhead, or port of entry), such that it would affect all activities that use fossil fuels, directly or indirectly.
Our goal is a global phaseout of fossil fuel carbon dioxide emissions. We have shown, quantitatively, that the only practical way to achieve an acceptable carbon dioxide level is to disallow the use of coal and unconventional fossil fuels (such as tar sands and oil shale) unless the resulting carbon is captured and stored. We realize that remaining, readily available pools of oil and gas will be used during the transition to a post-fossil-fuel world. But a rising carbon price surely will make it economically senseless to go after every last drop of oil and gas--even though use of those fuels with carbon capture and storage may be technically feasible and permissible.
Global phaseout of fossil fuel carbon dioxide emissions is a stringent requirement. Proposed government policies, consisting of an improved Kyoto Protocol approach with more ambitious targets, do not have a prayer of achieving that result. Our governments are deceiving us, and perhaps conveniently deceiving themselves, when they say that it is possible to reduce emissions 80 percent by 2050 with such an approach.
A successful new policy cannot include any offsets. We specified the carbon limit based on the geophysics. The physics does not compromise--it is what it is. And planting additional trees cannot be factored into the fossil fuel limitations. The plan for getting back to 350 ppm assumes major reforestation, but that is in addition to the fossil fuel limit, not instead of. Forest preservation and reforestation should be handled separately from fossil fuels in a sound approach to solve the climate problem.
The public must be firm and unwavering in demanding "no offsets," because this sort of monkey business is exactly the type of thing that politicians love and will try to keep. Offsets are like the indulgences that were sold by the church in the Middle Ages. People of means loved indulgences, because they could practice any hanky-panky or worse, then simply purchase an indulgence to avoid punishment for their sins. Bishops loved them too, because they brought in lots of moola. Anybody who argues for offsets today is either a sinner who wants to pretend he or she has done adequate penance or a bishop collecting moola.
Be prepared for energy experts telling you that a kazillion units of energy will be needed in 2050 or 2100. They will calculate how many square miles of solar power plants must be built every day or how many nuclear power plants must be built every year, and then they will wring their hands and perhaps try to sell you something. Yes, energy use is going to increase--mainly because parts of the world are developing rapidly and raising their standards of living and energy use. But energy growth need not be exceedingly rapid--energy use hardly grew during rapid economic growth in the world's largest economy, even though the great potential of energy efficiency was barely tapped.
Also remember that the solution to the climate problem requires a phasedown of carbon emissions, not necessarily a phasedown of energy use. We will need to slow the energy growth rate and decarbonizes our energy sources to solve the problem.
Why do fossil fuels continue to provide most of our energy? The reason is simple. Fossil fuels are the cheapest energy. This is in part due to their marvelous energy density and the intricate energy-use infrastructure that has grown up around fossil fuels. But there is another reason: Fossil fuels are cheapest because we do not take into account their true cost to society. Effects of air and water pollution on human health are borne by the public. Damages from climate change are also falling on the public, but they will be borne especially by our children and grandchildren.
How can we fix the problem? The solution necessarily will increase the price of fossil fuel energy. We must admit that. In the end, energy efficiency and carbon-free energy can surely be made less expensive than fossil fuels, if fossil fuels' cost to society is included. The difficult part is that we must make the transition with extraordinary speed if we are to avert climate disaster. Rather than immediately defining a proposed framework for a solution, which may appear to be arbitrary without further information, we need to first explore the problem and its practical difficulties.
Two alternative legislative actions have been proposed in the United States: "fee-and-dividend" and "cap-and-trade." Let's begin by looking at the simpler approach, fee-and-dividend. In this method, a fee is collected at the mine or port of entry for each fossil fuel (coal, oil and gas), i.e., at its first sale in the country. The fee is uniform, a single number, in dollars per ton of carbon dioxide in the fuel. The public does not directly pay any fee or tax, but the price of the goods they buy increases in proportion to how much fossil fuel is used in their production. Fuels such as gasoline or heating oil, along with electricity made from coal, oil or gas, are affected directly by the carbon fee, which is set to increase over time. The carbon fee will rise gradually so that the public will have time to adjust their lifestyle, choice of vehicle, home insulation, etc., so as to minimize their carbon footprint.
Under fee-and-dividend, 100 percent of the money collected from the fossil fuel companies at the mine or well is distributed uniformly to the public. Thus those who do better than average in reducing their carbon footprint will receive more in the dividend than they will pay in the added costs of the products they buy.
The fee-and-dividend approach is straightforward. It does not require a large bureaucracy. The total amount collected each month is divided equally among all legal adult residents of the country, with half shares for children, up to two children per family. This dividend is sent electronically to bank accounts, or for people without a bank account, to their debit card.
A rising carbon price does not eliminate the need for efficiency regulations, but it makes them work much better. The best enforcement is carbon price--as the fuel price rises, people pay attention to waste.
Let's discuss cap-and-trade explicitly. Then I will provide a bottom-line proof that it cannot work.
In cap-and-trade, the amount of a fossil fuel for sale is supposedly "capped." A nominal cap is defined by selling a limited number of certificates that allow a business or speculator to buy the fuel. So the fuel costs more because you must pay for the certificate and the fuel. Congress thinks this will reduce the amount of fuel you buy--which may be true, because it will cost you more. Congress likes cap-and-trade because it thinks the public will not figure out that a cap is a tax. How does the "trade" part factor in? Well, you don't have to use the certificate; you can trade it or sell it to somebody else. There will be markets for these certificates on Wall Street and such places. And markets for derivatives. The biggest player is expected to be Goldman Sachs. What is the advantage of cap-and-trade over fee-and-dividend, with the fee distributed to the public in equal shares? There is an advantage to cap-and-trade only for energy companies with strong lobbyists and for Congress, which would get to dole out the money collected in certificate selling, or just give away some certificates to special interests.
Okay, I will try to be more specific about why cap-and-trade will be necessarily ineffectual. Most of these arguments are relevant to other nations as well as the United States.
First, Congress is pretending that the cap is not a tax, so it must try to keep the cap's impact on fuel costs small. Therefore, the impact of cap-and-trade on people's spending decisions will be small, so necessarily it will have little effect on carbon emissions. Of course that defeats the whole purpose, which is to drive out fossil fuels by raising their price, replacing them with efficiency and carbon-free energy. The impact of cap-and-trade is made even smaller by the fact that the cap is usually not across the board at the mine. In the fee-and-dividend system, a single number, dollars per ton of carbon dioxide, is applied at the mine or port of entry. No exceptions, no freebies for anyone, all fossil fuels covered for everybody. In cap-and-trade, things are usually done in a more complicated way, which allows lobbyists and special interests to get their fingers in the pie. If the cap is not applied across the board, covering everything equally, any sector not covered will be able to lower its price. Sectors not covered then increase their fuel use.
In contrast, the fee-and-dividend approach puts a rising and substantial price on carbon. I believe that the public, if honestly informed, will accept a rise in the carbon fee rate because their monthly dividend will increase correspondingly. The cap-and-trade target level for emissions (defined by the number of permits) sets a floor on emissions. Emissions cannot go lower than this floor, because the price of permits on the market would crash, bringing down fossil fuel prices and again making it more economical for profit-maximizing businesses to burn fossil fuels than to employ energy-efficiency measures and renewable energy technology.
With fee-and-dividend, in contrast, we will reach a series of points at which various carbon-free energies and carbon-saving technologies are cheaper than fossil fuels plus their fee. As time goes on, fossil fuel use will collapse, remaining coal supplies will be left in the ground, and we will have arrived at a clean energy future. And that is our objective.
A perverse effect of the cap-and-trade floor is that altruistic actions become meaningless. Say that you are concerned about your grandchildren, so you decide to buy a high-efficiency little car. That will reduce your emissions but not the country's or the world's; instead it will just allow somebody else to drive a bigger SUV. Emissions will be set by the cap, not by your actions.
Fourth, Wall Street trading of emission permits and their derivatives in the anticipated multitrillion-dollar carbon market, along with the demonstrated volatility of carbon markets, creates the danger of Wall Street failures and taxpayer-funded bailouts. In the best case, if market failures are avoided, there is the added cost of the Wall Street trading operation and the profits of insider trading.
In contrast, a simple flat fee at the mine or well, with simple long division to determine the size of the monthly dividend to all legal residents, provides no role for Wall Street. Could that be the main reason that Washington so adamantly prefers cap-and-trade? Fee-and-dividend is revenue neutral to the public, on average. Cap-and-trade is not, because we, the public, provide the profits to Wall Street and any special interests that have managed to get written into the legislation. Of course Congress will say, "We will keep the cost very low, so you will hardly notice it." The problem is, if it's too small for you to notice, then it is not having an effect. But maybe Congress doesn't really care about your grandchildren.
Hold on! Or so you must be thinking. If cap-and-trade is so bad, why do environmental organizations such as the Environmental Defense Fund and the National Resources Defense Council support it? And what about Waxman and Markey, two of the strongest supporters of the environment among all members of the House of Representatives?
I don't doubt the motives of these people and organizations, but they have been around Washington a long time. They think they can handle this problem the way they always have, by wheeling and dealing. Environmental organizations "help" Congress in the legislative process, just as the coal and oil lobbyists do. So there are lots of "good" items in the 1,400 pages of the Waxman-Markey bill, such as support for specific renewable energies. There may be more good items than bad ones--but unfortunately the net result is ineffectual change. Indeed, the bill throws money to the polluters, propping up the coal industry with tens of billions of taxpayer dollars and locking in coal emissions for decades at great expense.
Yet these organizations say, "It is a start. We will get better legislation in the future." It would surely require continued efforts for many decades, but we do not have many decades to straighten out the mess.
The beauty of the fee-and-dividend approach is that the carbon fee helps any carbon-free energy source, but it does not specify these sources; it lets the consumer choose. It does not cost the government anything. Whether it costs citizens, and how much, depends on how well they reduce their carbon footprint.
A final comment on cap-and-trade versus fee-and-dividend. Say an exogenous development occurs, for example, someone invents an inexpensive solar cell or an algae biofuel that works wonders. Any such invention will add to the 28 percent emissions reduction in the fee- and- dividend approach. But the 17 percent reduction under cap-and-trade will be unaffected, because the cap is a floor. Permit prices would fall, so energy prices would fall, but emission reductions would not go below the floor. Cap-and-trade is not a smart approach.
Contrary to the assertion by proponents of a Kyoto-style cap-and-trade agreement, cap-and-trade is not the fastest way to an international agreement. That assertion is another case of calling black "white," apparently under the assumption that the listener will accept it without thinking. A cap-and-trade agreement will be just as hard to achieve as was the Kyoto Protocol. Indeed, why should China, India, and the rest of the developing world accept a cap when their per-capita emissions are an order of magnitude less than America's or Europe's? Leaders of developing countries are making that argument more and more vocally. Even if differences are papered over to achieve a cap-and-trade agreement at upcoming international talks, the agreement is guaranteed to be ineffectual. So eventually (quickly, I hope!) it must be replaced with a more meaningful approach. Let's define one.
The key requirement is that the United States and China agree to apply across-the-board fees to carbon-based fuels. Why would China do that? Lots of reasons. China is developing rapidly and it does not want to be saddled with the fossil fuel addiction that plagues the United States. Besides, China would be hit at least as hard as the United States by climate change. The most economically efficient way for China to limit its fossil fuel dependence, to encourage energy efficiency and carbon-free energies, is via a uniform carbon fee.
The same is true for the United States. Indeed, if the United States does not take such an approach but rather continues to throw lifelines to special interests, its economic power and standard of living will deteriorate, because such actions make the United States economy less and less efficient relative to the rest of the world.
Agreement between the United States and China comes down to negotiating the ratio of their respective carbon tax rates. In this negotiation the question of fairness will come up--the United States being more responsible for the excess carbon dioxide in the air today despite its smaller population. That negotiation will not be easy, but once both countries realize they are on the same boat and will sink or survive together, an agreement should be possible. Europe, Japan and most developed countries would likely agree to a similar status to that of the United States. It would not be difficult to deal with any country that refuses to levy a comparable across-the-board carbon fee. An import duty could be collected by countries importing products from any nation that does not levy such a carbon fee. The World Trade Organization already has rules permitting such duties. The duty would be based on standard estimates of the amount of fossil fuels that go into producing the imported product, with the exporting company allowed the option of demonstrating that its product is made without fossil fuels, or with a lesser amount of them. In fact, exporting countries would have a strong incentive to impose their own carbon fee, so that they could keep the revenue themselves.
As for developing nations, and the poorest nations in the world, how can they be treated fairly? They also must have a fee on their fossil fuel use or a duty applied to the products that they export. That is the only way that fossil fuels can be phased out. If these countries do not have a tax on fossil fuels, then industry will move there, as it has moved already from the West to China and India, with carbon pollution moving along with it. Fairness can be achieved by using the funds from export duties, which are likely to greatly exceed foreign aid, to improve the economic and social well-being of the developing nations.
In summary, the backbone of a solution to the climate problem is a flat carbon emissions price applied across all fossil fuels at the source. This carbon price (fee, tax) must rise continually, at a rate that is economically sound. The funds must be distributed back to the citizens (not to special interests)--otherwise the tax rate will never be high enough to lead to a clean energy future. If your government comes back and tells you that it is going to have a "goal" or "target" for carbon emission reductions, even a "mandatory" one, you know that it is lying to you, and that it doesn't give a damn about your children or grandchildren. For the moment, let's assume that our governments will see the light.
Once the necessity of a backbone flat carbon price across all fossil fuel sources is recognized, the required elements for a framework agreement become clear. The principal requirement will be to define how this tax rate will vary between nations. Recalcitrance of any nations to agree to the carbon price can be handled via import duties, which are permissible under existing international agreements. The framework must also define how proceeds of carbon duties will be used to assure fairness, encourage practices that improve women's rights and education, and help control population. A procedure should be defined for a regular adjustment of funds' distribution for fairness and to reward best performance. Well, what happens if, instead of accepting the need for a rising carbon price, our governments continue to deceive us, setting goals and targets for carbon emissions reductions?
In that case we had better start thinking about the Venus syndrome.
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43 Comments so far
Show All"With few results." No doubt.
"Those of us who are exceedingly distressed at the great economic, political and environmental injustices that afflict our society see no sign of these injustices diminishing, but instead we see them increasing." They are.
"Economic and political power is concentrated in the hands of a few thousand mostly competent people."
That depends on how you view or think of competency. They're effectively getting the results that they want, but are they really competent? If they're really competent, then wouldn't they care, at least, about their own families and descendants? If not, then how is this competent?
It's a rhetorical question; while seriously meant, it nevertheless is only rhetorical. It's only a thought or question that crossed my mind, because I don't perceive evil or wickedness as [competent] even when its greed is effective or realised, and it achieves the infliction of unjust miseries, f.e. Similarly, I don't consider a murderer or rapist competent just because they succeeded in committing their crimes.
Imo, really competent leadership would govern in terms that are holistic with regards to our dependence on Nature, as well as to be humanly fair among ourselves, all of Humanity. That's a way I'd consider socially, environmentally, and politically competent; and this is contrary to our corporatist governments and their corporate rulers, rulers until we elect enough political representatives of sufficient moral conscience and intelligence, anyway. Our over-lords, whatever they can be called, are wicked and act against their families' best interests, instead of only acting against our best interests, and this is not particularly competent; not as I use the term, anyway.
Normally, a CEO who acts only for himself, against the best interests of the workers and shareholders, both, won't last long in his or her position. Normally. There's hardly anything normal today though. Well, there's normative psychosis, psychopathy, sociopathy, etcetera, clearly and unfortunately; but there's hardly anything left of good kinds of normal. Was there ever any? I don't know and hope there was, but now I wonder. Humans are not a particularly inspiring species.
So there's hardly anything for basis about competency. We're competently destroying, killing, that is, murdering, adding more genocides and holocausts. Heh, the Nazis competently holocausted roughly 6mn eastern European Jews and caused a world war that cost 60mn or so lives. That's technically competent, if it's the goal; but even then I would resist against thinking of it as competent. If we're to believe that it's competent, then we may as well believe that Satan may be evil, but he's competent about it; and we may as well consider all of our wasteful and bla bla bla ways are only because we're competent, at destroying the future for ourselves, children, grandchildren, etcetera. If it's what we aim for, then I guess we're already competent and if we're competent, then what's to be corrected? Should we become incompetent and if so, then how? Should we incompetently try to correct our self-destructive manners?
Rhetorics. You just should have avoided calling them competent. They're morons who think they're competent.
"They are largely responsible for the continual growth in greenhouse gas emissions and the coming (now starting) great loss of life, human and non-human, from Climate Change."
Is it humans, or the sun, that is more responsible?
"Since its birth, the U.S. has invaded approximately 162 foreign countries."
That number excludes the invasion against the indigenous populations of the Americas, or is this included in the 162?
"Our answer, which we are starting to implement in a few cities: Baltimore, Camden, New York, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh in January, and in Chicago and Detroit in July, all of which are cities where we have been working for three decades in churches and colleges, is to form great numbers of small (25-50) communities of people who ...."
Is that supposed to be 25 to 50 communities, or 25 to 50 people per community formed? If the latter, then how many communities of such numbers of members have been formed?
This, btw, is NOT to criticize your post in any manner. My questions and thoughts are not to criticize anything you stated. Instead, I'm quite supportive of what you posted; just that some thoughts and questions nevertheless come to mind. And it clearly is just a matter of a little of the wording in your post.
Otherwise, keep up the good work you describe.
It seems like a bad idea to use common words like 'competent' in special, non-standard ways. It muddies the water, fuzzes up the listener's brain, and the real message gets lost in the struggle. Any message should be easy to understand in an honest way without special training. That's why 'academese' and 'bureaucratese' are great for creating confusion, but lousy for getting across real information.
Discovering the bed of lies by our politicians and markets is probably the most important task we as citizens of this world have.
I found this article describing where the bed of lies lay.
Thank you.
I will do all I can to bring support to fee and dividend.
toophat for you!
Discovering the truths from words of our politicians and markets should be easier. After all, there are a lot more lies than there are truths from these sources. Most of what they say and present to us can be written off as lies, charlatanry, ....
And I don't want a bed of lies. We're already inundated with this shit.
British Columbia (a Province of Canada) introduced a carbon tax on all fossil fuels on July 1, 2008. All adult residents of the Province also got a rebate cheque at the same time.
While the tax is small this is, to my knowledge, the only jurisdiction that has imposed the tax and dividend regime that is simple to apply and far superior to funding Wall Street.
"In that case we had better start thinking about the Venus syndrome."
...or the China Syndrome if you keep pushing nukes.
China syndrome and nukes, eh? What are your sources?
Presently, Russia is the military power in that part of the world and China is the economic power, certainly in terms of potential anyway. Both have nuclear arms, but Russia has much more than China, according to official numbers. And China doesn't really need more than it has in order to be a real challenger against any nuclear attacks. It has ... what, maybe a couple hundred nuclear missiles? That's certainly enough to be a threat to any country wanting to attack with nuclear weapons. Russia has thousands of nuclear missiles; thousands less than the USA, but then it also doesn't take thousands to make most of the USA become like ... vapor-ware, either.
Interesting picture that brings to mind. Gawf. Don't mind me; my imagination runs fantastically wild, now and then.
A lot of weight-lifters, body-builders, whatever, say, "no pain, no gain", which is dumb and wrong, for the pain they refer to is about harmful stresses to their bodies; while some of these idiots also think this stress is to be challenged by making it worse ... fr the better, which it can't be. Dumb animals! Our politicians aren't usually athletic in any intelligent sense, either, and they clearly aren't respectably bright in any other terms, which reflects upon voters; but they, the politicians, think that inflicting great pain on humanity is profitable, which is oxymoronic, to say the least of what it sickeningly is. In both cases, the reverse is true, that is, pain signals to STOP stressing and to correct the approach or activity, which can mean to switch to a totally different activity, or to modify the or a particular exercise in the activity, like changing the number of repetitions, the weight, so resistance, or the frequency of routines, work-outs, f.e.
In the case of our governments and unfortunately elected "representatives", their [whole] approach needs correction and this starts with voters needing to wake up and stop electing and re-electing rogue individuals as "representatives". Or maybe the majority of people who vote want to think of themselves as also rogue(?). In the latter case, the rest of us are evidently at a loss that seems or is undefeatable. It's bad enough trying to get voters who don't want to elect rogue candidates to stop doing so. What do you do when voters want rogue candidates and these voters constitute a majority of electors?
Voters sure do seem to like to elect evil.
The hubris of rulers who think they can dupe Mother Nature like they do most of their subjects. As Vandana Shiva says, "We face a stark choice: we can destroy the conditions for human life on the planet by clinging to "free-market" fundamentalism, or we can secure our future by bringing commerce within the laws of ecological sustainability and social justice." The Injustice of Carbon Offsets, The New Statesman, September 18, 2009.
I just did a Web search and CD has a copy of Vandana Shiva's article.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/09/18-9
END CAPITALISM.
And how do we set the prices of goods and services? By committee? And whose on the committee, you? WTF, man, grow up.
Ending capitalism doesn't mean the end of money. Goods and services will still be determined by the market. Capitalism is a system of wealth being created by wealth, not labor. Those with wealth continue to increase their wealth and in time the increase is exponential until the wealth has funneled into the hands of few. Those without grow poorer by the day and have no chance of attaining the same measure of wealth and their numbers grow as the wealth funnels into the hands of few.
Play a game of Monopoly.
It is modeled on capitalism.
See how it ends.
One player owns all the property and cash.
The rest are busted and off the board.
I'll let others explain the power of corporations and the environmental degredation that results from this rotten system.
"Capitalism is a system of wealth being created by wealth, not labor"
Not true at all! Read Karl Marx. He proved that wealth is the creation of labor and only labor.
Marx was right, but once profiteers become more wealthy than the laborers, then the course is spinned or worked to favour the latter and not the former. History proves this. When and the more that this course continues, the labourers lose more and more, relatively speaking. Eventually, many of the labourers lose everything and it's them who made the system work to begin with; but that's of no concern to the ever-richer profiteers. Again, history proves this.
Banks have nothing until they have depositors. Once there are depositors, the banksters use the money for investments and retain, including for shareholders, I guess, 80% of more of the profits, depositors get maybe a whopping 5%, and the rest, I also guess, goes to pay for bank operation costs. These numbers might not be exactly right, but are nevertheless close enough; and the banksters basically do nothing, while getting rich from other people's money.
While I think your argument is [basically] right, it seems to not be fully descriptive of reality and you were criticizing the latter kind of perception that only omitted mention of the basics. F.e., U.S. citizens and residents started the computer industry, but MANY have since been replaced with cheaper foreign labor. Many manufacturing jobs in the US and Canada, as well as Mexico, have been lost to offshoring to cheaper labour countries.
Labourers are the muscle, but they're outmuscled by the bureaucrats as they see fit for their profit.
Your argument is valid, but it's not descriptive of the whole reality and we can refer to the whole without needing to specify the basics. We can do both, but most people usually don't state all of the related details when speaking on a topic.
Read between the lines.
Otoh, if this is a misinterpretation of Buck's post, then I also disagree with him. However, I think he'd agree with the above; maybe. I don't know Buck, and can see why you made the post that you committed, but I think, from the rest of his post, that he'd agree with the above. (?)
If he doesn't or wouldn't, then I would then have to disagree with him and maybe about more than what you posted.
I've been a labourer and not even migrant workers are compensated as little as I am these days due to the lack of jobs for citizens and other legalised residents, immigrants. I've done farm and manufacturing labour, worked in a few restaurants, dishwasher, short-order cook, and deliverer, worked municipal park security, and ten years as a computer professional, mostly on unix systems, and I never desired to be boss, etcetera; for I only care to do my work and provide consultation, not manage or boss others. You can provide management consultation services or input without needing to be manager and I need this personal freedom, in part because I like to be hands-on and not occupy a bureaucratic sort of position or job. I know what labour is and I'd like my own piece of land to have to work it. Being a bureaucrat has NO appeal to me whatsoever and if I applied and was hired for such a job today, then I'd surely use my income to take some professional certification courses to help me get back to the skills work, labour; but such courses cost thousands of dollars, so the job would need to pay well enough to be able to afford these courses out of my own, personal income. And that's not going to happen as the world is today.
Labourers make businesses what they are, but are treated as last in line, anyway. For this to justly change requires serious labour solidarity and there's usually NONE.
Dog eat dog world, eh. No kidding.
And this has nothing to do with climate change problems.
WTF Grow up.?
Do you understand what Capitalism is?
It is not the prescence of a Currency. They had Currency long before Capitalism.
It is not as some suggest property rights. They had property rights long before Capitalism.
It is not a "Marketplace" where the market sets the prices of Good and services. Marketplaces existed in Ancient Egypt and Sumerica and China, along with rights to property and the existence of currency. Long before Capitalism.
Capitalism starts with the creation of a Capitalist Class who control most of a countries "wealth" thus concentrating Capitalin their hands.
The Capital is invested to create profits. In exchange for that Capital those without Capital exchange their labor. By design this leads to the Capital being concentrated into the handful of a small handful who make more in the way of profits off that Capital. It can not work if Capital is equitably distributed because people will not exchange labor for Capital if they already have Capital.
These are amongst the closest defintions of Capitalism.
capi·tal·ism (kap′ət 'l iz′əm)
noun
>>1.an economic system in which all or most of the means of production and distribution, as land, factories, communications, and transportation systems, are privately owned and operated in a relatively competitive environment through the investment of capital to produce profits: it has been characterized by a tendency toward the concentration of wealth, the growth of large corporations, etc. that has led to economic inequality, which has been dealt with usually by increased government action and control
>>2.the principles, methods, interests, power, influence, etc. of capitalists, especially of those with large holdings
>>The Penguin Dictionary of Politics goes for a more substantial definition: “The economic system under which the ownership of the means of production is concentrated in the hands of a class, consisting of only a minor section of society, and under which there is a property-less class for whom the sale of their labour power, as a commodity, is the only source of livelihood.” It goes on to point out that capitalism does not necessarily imply free enterprise, since markets tend to become dominated by monopolies and cartels.
Now as I have mentioned before most of us, some 90 percent plus are NOT of the Capitalist Class. If one believes in the system called the Monarchy , it harldy means the peasent in the fields is Monarch.
The majority of us earn our income and our livelihood off our labor which we exchange with those of the Capitalist class for Capital. Those of the Capitalist class earn the vast majority of wealth (through profits) OFF the mere prescence of that Capital. Thus then can buy beachfront proeprty with that Capital leveraged at 20 to one on Monday, and sell it two weeks later earning more in Profits then a laborer can make in 20 years.
Ine The System called Capitalism, if we were all Capitalists wherein we could earn more wealth (income) off our Capital then our labor, then none of us would work and the entire system would collpase because TRUE wealth can only be created by labor. Thus Capitalism MUST have classes. Those with Capital and those with little or none and thus willing to labor for a livelihood.
"The Capital is invested to create profits. In exchange for that Capital those without Capital exchange their labor. By design this leads to the Capital being concentrated into the handful of a small handful who make more in the way of profits off that Capital. It can not work if Capital is equitably distributed because people will not exchange labor for Capital if they already have Capital."
This statement deserves a little more explanation. "Profits" are created by the capitalist class appropriating the value of unpaid labor, ie. surplus value. Capital itself is composed of two components: Fixed capital and Variable capital. The former is comprised of: depreciation of the means of production and raw materials as inputs for production. The latter is capital used to purchase labor power. As you say, capital is owned by the capitalist class, but it ONLY becomes capital if it invested into the production of commodities. A worker who is able to obtain enough money to then use it as capital to produce commodities, ceases to be a worker or has no reason to sell his/her labor power to a capitalist and can become an independent producer himself. :-)
The key behind a capitalist economy is that surplus value is appropriated by the capitalist class. An alternative (socialism) is where surplus value is returned to society as a whole with no capitalist class there to appropriate it. This can take the form of worker co-operatives or collectives of workers, appropriating the surplus value they produce or through democratically controlled state run enterprises where the surplus value then is returned to society as a whole, or a combination of all the above.
I have no disagreement with your clarification.
I didn't think you would GWNorth. :-)
Hey, GWNorth! you wrote:
"Capitalism starts with the creation of a Capitalist Class who control most of a countries "wealth" thus concentrating Capitalin their hands."
How does this work? How do they gain control of 'wealth', and what is the 'wealth' they control?
Thanks!
Looking at the history of the European invasion of the Americas brought that process into sharp relief for me.
1) People find somebody else's land.
2) Some guy with a fancy hat says to one of his favorites 'Take an army, go there, and take it over in my name.'
3) The favorite and the army go there, kill everyone who resists, and, if successful, the favorite gets to keep the land and pay taxes to the guy with the hat.
4) That process is replicated as the first guy hands out smaller divisions to *his* favorites in return for money, service, etc., and the second-tier ones hand out to a third tier, etc.
5) The country's wealth --its capital-- is now in the hands of an oligarchic class who never worked for it - they 'own' it only because the big web of enculturation keeps people in the system from protesting. They're told that it's "God's will" and they'll go to Hell (expedited by an ax, sword, or gun) if they commit the heresy of saying 'no'.
thank you so much, mairead! you responded just as I had hoped, and just as I would...you even prioritized correctly!
your first item states it clearly:
find some land
and your second, following logically:
take it...
the 'ownership of land': this is the issue underlying all others...
there is no wealth without the planet, there is no labor without the planet, there are no resources for labor to turn into wealth without the planet...
we must retake the planet for life, as business is killing it...
thanks, again...
And how do we set the prices of goods and services? By committee? And whose on the committee, you? WTF, man, grow up.
----------------------------------
I think you might have misunderstood something. Only in command economies like Capitalism and Soviet Communism are prices 'set' in defiance of trade principles and common sense. In other contexts, they're set by the cost of labor and, if sustainability is an issue, the cost of damage to the commons.
he proposes offsetting personal taxes from generated fees, the best solution up to date, therefore most unlikely to happen,
remember,gore is selected by nobel and wall street
edweg
"remember, gore is selected by nobel and wall street"
Thanks for that "promising" note.
I'm 75, kid and what I want to know, Do you love your market fundamentalism more than your children or their children?
If you want to change Washington, shock it. Fly your flags upside down, do not vote, do not spend, do not borrow, live local, help each other.
And don't reproduce.
Do not vote? What do you have against Ralph Nader?
"What is the advantage of cap-and-trade over fee-and-dividend, with the fee distributed to the public in equal shares? There is an advantage to cap-and-trade only for energy companies with strong lobbyists and for Congress, which would get to dole out the money collected in certificate selling, or just give away some certificates to special interests."
--Which is why we won't be getting fee-and-dividend anytime soon. By the way, this is Georgism, as in Henry George. Makes perfect sense. But since Congress and the Prez don't…
Mike Corbeil wrote:
"That depends on how you view or think of competency. They're effectively getting the results that they want, but are they really competent? If they're really competent, then wouldn't they care, at least, about their own families and descendants? If not, then how is this competent?"
The capitalist system defines "competency" as the ability to "succeed". "Success" under this system is defined by how successful each individual is at accumulating wealth. A corporation is rewarded by rising stock values when it shows it can increase profits for its shareholders. An individual consumer is judged on the amount of consumer items he/she is able to obtain. Individual greed is the defining measure of "competency" under a capitalist system.
Without changing the system and doing away with capitalism, there is no hope in hell of redefining "success" and hence what society judges as "competency".
A more rational approach for defining "competency" and "success" would be with the individual stopping acting in his/her selfish individual interest and starts acting in the collective interests of society as a whole. For this to happen the whole economic structure needs to changed so that wealth cannot be appropriated by the individual, but rather becomes collective wealth equally shared amongst all people within the society. IE, a socialist system is required.
If you look at it from the other side, the country, until Reagan put in place the beginnings of its destruction, and the rise of the unregulated Capitalism, was Socialist. Half of the citizens of the country felt about that socialism as the other half is now feeling about capitalism.
But to do away with capitalism, and replace it with the collective wealth of equally shared socialism as you suggest, would be as destructive to the country as the unregulated capitalism that has brought us to the edge of the abyss we now find ourselves at.
We as a society are a fairly equal mix of capitalists and socialists, and until we understand that and find a working balance of both for the country, the slide down to our destruction will continue.
I suspect that by 'socialism' you really mean the discredited 'state socialism', which is equivalent to 'state capitalism' aka 'stato corporativo' aka fascism. Hardly anyone uses that definition these days except for those who've been living in a cave for the past 30+ years or who get excited just thinking about the inequality that's the basis for private-profit capitalism.
Real socialism would be enormously better than private-profit capitalism. And it really wouldn't matter how many people prefer private-profit capitalism, just as it doesn't matter how many people would prefer it were legal to own slaves, or to kill those who oppose their will.
"The capitalist system defines "competency" as ..."
Screw such idiot capitalists.
"Individual greed is the defining measure of "competency" under a capitalist system."
To Hell with such bs.
While I live in capitalist and somewhat socialist societies, this doesn't mean that I must use their terminology as the corrupt leaders do. I employ the term "competency" for what it should sanely mean; not the insane definition that I'm against the application of.
And we can be capitalist without being sociopaths and psychopaths. Being the former does not necessarily mean being the latter. And real capitalists are NOT sociopathic, much less psychopathic, because they want healthy societies, including economically; to the benefit of everyone, which benefits a true and sane capitalist. The problem is that our societies have too many sociopaths and psychopaths running ... nearly everything.
There's nothing wrong with honest sexual relations, but never leave this to psychopaths or even sociopaths. Don't leave them anything, except "behind bars", being placed there, that is.
"And we can be capitalist without being sociopaths and psychopaths... And real capitalists are NOT sociopathic, much less psychopathic, because they want healthy societies, including economically; to the benefit of everyone, which benefits a true and sane capitalist."
You are defining personality traits that has nothing to do with how the capitalist system operates. To be a capitalist means that one MUST exploit the labor of workers by not paying them for part of their production and appropriating that part as surplus value. Capitalism is a class-based exploitive system and cannot be anything else. If you feel that exploitation is carried out because some capitalists are sociopaths or psychopaths, then you don't understand how capitalism works. The capitalist has little choice, if he hopes to remain a capitalist, then to exploit workers. It isn't a moral or lifestyle choice. This process of exploitation of labor power leads to all the inequities we see under the capitalist system along with the drive to further exploit the natural world. The capitalist can only be concerned with rising profits (increased exploitation) under a capitalist system and this DOES NOT "benefit everyone", but rather benefits only the capitalist class to the detriment of everyone else.
Firstly, I'll just state that you should have posted as a REPLY to my post that you've now posted on, a point I didn't mention in my other reply to this reply of yours. You posted this as if to try to evade my notice, even if it wasn't your intention, which I guess it probably wasn't; but CD still provides the ability to directly reply on posts already made and you should've used this feature!
With that said, I'll continue with your quasi-secreted reply.
"Without changing the system and doing away with capitalism, there is no hope in hell of redefining "success" and hence what society judges as "competency"."
I don't live my life based on society's definitions of terms unless it suits what I want to say. If it doesn't suit, then I use some of the terms according to a more open-minded and fair understanding. F.e., I very much dislike, disapprove of the general [American], especially, usage of "liberal", "conservative", "progressive", and the bs so-called "lesser evil". Lesser evil is always unproven, but is always evil; and the other terms are not what I'd want to use when most people use these terms, for those are usages that are incomplete, omissive. They can mean good or bad, depending on the context of usage, but too many idiot Americans fault conservatives when liberals are just as guilty and this latter part is omitted, which is to lie and I disapprove of such bs.
I am liberal, because I don't care about same-sex marriages and believe in separation of church and state, but this also means that I'm conservative in a healthy sense. I don't want to waste my time on matters that really don't pertain to me, unless they bear injustices, in which case I want to liberally and conservatively exercise my world citizenship to try to help the victim(s).
Americans tend to have a lousy use of language and I think abstractly.
"A more rational approach for defining "competency" and "success" would be with the individual stopping acting in his/her selfish individual interest and starts acting in the collective interests of society as a whole."
It's what I've posted about in the past, living holistically. That is about more than only how we conduct ourselves socially, for it also and necessarily includes how we conduct ourseles environmentally, but this is what you essentially say even if you didn't mean to infer any environmental concerns.
"For this to happen the whole economic structure needs to changed so that wealth cannot be appropriated by the individual, but rather becomes collective wealth equally shared amongst all people within the society. IE, a socialist system is required."
I don't care about some wealth being individually accumulated, but do care when it becomes detrimental to others, in which case we have injustice(s) and I am concerned about these.
As for socialism, it's perhaps a nice terminology, but it's also cousin to capitalism. I don't know of any socialist country that is not "infected" with corrupt, predatory capitalism.
I apologize. I meant to reply to your post, but after posting, realized I goofed and it was a new post. Hence, I edited it by addressing it to you.
Ever try to stop doing something that you wanted to do?
Your rational self knows smoking will eventually kill you and in the meantime make you less healthy, more tired, and easily distracted.
Meanwhile every cell in your body is screaming for it's usual fix.
We are very unlikely to do anything about unnecessary driving, eating meat, or present methods of food production until it is proven to us that we are going to die if we don't change.
By then it will be far too late. Bottom line: we are going to die en masse, probably with many regrets.
I agree. The human body biochemical machinery is designed to seek and acquire energy stores. To that end, all our feelings of pleasure come directly from wallowing in plentiful energy. It's basic. It takes a constant effort of will to stop living like a pig. Most people don't possess that amount of will power.
the one stood in the desired place and claimed exclusive right...another countered, but was defeated...another countered, another defeat...no other countered, and no others banded together to counter and defeat the one...
the one allowed the others to return, but meekly, and under condition...
the others must band together to counter and defeat the one...the others will lose much in the process, but will lose all otherwise...
the survival of the living planet must be given highest priority...quickly...
Global Start Date: September 22, 2012...worldwide change must occur, and unanimously...acoustic, agrarian life...individual engagement in one's own sustenance...cessation of industry and electricity...
Impossible? sadly, perhaps...alternatives?
Very good, thanks.
Churches, businesses, military, economies, etc. etc. etc.........sounds like the same old doublespeak to me.
We need to change our way of thinking. No corporations. No churches. No economies. No military.
Everyone taking care of their own business, their own spirituality, their own labors their own self defense.
Each of us holding ourselves accountable for the safety of the earth. Personally!
Hansen:
Also remember that the solution to the climate problem requires a phasedown of carbon emissions, not necessarily a phasedown of energy use. We will need to slow the energy growth rate and decarbonizes our energy sources to solve the problem.
Reply:
This is profoundly dishonest propaganda. Of course a "phasedown" of carbon based fuel means a phasedown of energy use. It's just physics. Sorry.
We don't need to "slow the energy growth rate" -- we need to reduce the amount of energy we use. Slower growth still leads to ecological overshoot. Exponential growth cannot continue forever on a round, and therefore finite planet. Climate Change and Peak Oil and Peak Everything Else are symptoms of this underlying problem. Economic crash and then Oil Depletion is how we are going to reduce energy consumption and greenhouse gas generation, not political promises or treaties or pledges to cut emissions long after the current crop of politicians is forgotten. You cannot burn fuel that does not exist. Peak Oil is going to be harder to ignore in the coming years, although politicians are going to try to focus on the symptoms (conflicts in oil rich regions, economic disruption, price increases) instead of the root causes (we're halfway through the oil and going into the downslope).
It takes a lot of fossil inputs - and a globalized distribution system - to make high tech renewables. Solar hot water and some efficiency systems are simpler to make and don't require rare minerals. But we've waited too long to transition without disruption.
Solar electricity and wind turbines are great and we should build as many as we can with the remaining oil. But they won't power food delivery trucks, airplanes, war toys, freight trains, the existing cars and SUVs, tractors, cargo ships, etc. There's a lag time in changing the infrastructure and we waited too long -- the time to change was certainly no later than Carter, and probably the real opportunity was when Kennedy changed his mind on the Cold War and called for disarmament and international cooperation.
Hansen, in other media forums, has been pushing nuclear power as an alleged solution. He omits the fact that uranium is finite, that it takes a huge amount of coal power to mine, process, enrich the uranium, that reactors emit a variety of atmosphere altering pollutants, and that it will be practically impossible to babysit the nuclear excrement for millennia. The only safe nuclear reactor has a 93 million mile evacuation zone and it rises every morning. We could power a smaller economy based on steady state principles with renewable energy, but not our growth and overshoot based system.
Hansen:
Why do fossil fuels continue to provide most of our energy? The reason is simple. Fossil fuels are the cheapest energy. This is in part due to their marvelous energy density and the intricate energy-use infrastructure that has grown up around fossil fuels. But there is another reason: Fossil fuels are cheapest because we do not take into account their true cost to
reply:
Energy density is the primary issue. Renewable energy is nicer, but it is much less energy dense.
Energy Return on Energy Invested is probably the most important concept for understanding energy.
This report is one of the best for understanding it:
http://www.postcarbon.org/new-site-files/Reports/Searching_for_a_Miracle_web10nov09.pdf
SEARCHING FOR A MIRACLE
Net Energy Limits and the Fate of Industrial Society
by Richard Heinberg Foreword by Jerry Mander
A Joint Project of the International Forum on Globalization and the Post Carbon Institute.
[ False Solution Series #4 ] September 2009
Also recommended:
http://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_population_energy_video1.html
Albert Bartlett, professor emeritus of physics, University of Colorado
"Arithmetic, Population and Energy"
http://www.chrismartenson.com
The Crash Course
(energy and money)