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Obama Rejects Afghanistan-Vietnam Comparison
WASHINGTON - President Obama rejected comparisons on Monday between the war in Afghanistan and the conflict in Vietnam a generation ago, but he expressed concern about "the dangers of overreach" and pledged a full debate before making further decisions on strategy.
The president's comments, in an interview at the White House with The New York Times and CNBC, appeared to be a response to rising unease within his own party in Congress about the possibility of the United States becoming bogged down in Afghanistan.
Asked whether he worried about repeating the fate of President Lyndon B. Johnson, who declined to seek re-election in 1968 as a result of the turmoil over Vietnam, Mr. Obama replied: "You have to learn lessons from history. On the other hand, each historical moment is different. You never step into the same river twice. And so Afghanistan is not Vietnam."
But, he added, "The dangers of overreach and not having clear goals and not having strong support from the American people, those are all issues that I think about all the time."
The president promised to weigh the recommendation of the top commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, on whether the United States should commit more troops. But he took issue with assertions that the job of dismantling terrorism networks can be handled by drones and other alternatives to soldiers on the ground.
"I assure you that if that were the case, you wouldn't see 68,000 of our young men and women deployed in Afghanistan," he said.
In the interview, Mr. Obama also addressed the repercussions from his decision late last week to levy new tariffs on tires imported from China. He said that his actions and China's response would not incite a trade war.
"I think it's in China's interests and our interests and the world's interests to avoid protectionism, particularly just as world trade is starting to bounce back from the huge declines that we've seen in the last year," Mr. Obama said.
He said that the decision would give him credibility with his labor union supporters the next time he told them a trade agreement was good for the United States.
Mr. Obama also signaled that he thought the need for a new economic stimulus package may have abated.
"I have a strong inclination not to do" a second stimulus package, he said. "I think that most folks believe that we've now turned the corner where we might actually start seeing some positive economic growth in months to come. As you know, jobs tend to be a lagging indicator; they come last."
58 Comments so far
Show AllObama claims that "You have to learn lessons from history. On the other hand, each historical moment is different. You never step into the same river twice. And so, Afghanistan is not Vietnam." This is a president who, like LBJ, is in deep denial. What Obama conveniently chooses to ignore is that a third world country like Afghanistan, like Vietnam, was and never has been a threat to anyone living in these United States. Afghanistan, like Vietnam, was invaded and occupied for the most specious or reasons. The Afghans, like the Vietnamese, will continue to fight the invaders until they are driven from their homeland. The Afghans, like the Vietnamese, have been the recipient of America's bombs which have unjustifiably ripped apart many innocent Afghan children and grandmothers. Afghanistan, like Vietnam, has been used to justify American imperialism.
This is a president who, despite his claim, seems to have learned absolutely nothing from history. The hope is that the insurgents, aka freedom fighters, will continue to engage in hit and run, attack and retreat strategies, that will continue to baffle the Americans and inflict enough casualties upon them so that Obama and his generals will finally call a halt to the bombing and withdraw US troops from the country that has become the graveyard of mighty empires that have attempted to conquer Afghanistan in the past.
Afghans-resist and fight American aggression and American imperialism.
Although many have tried, some more than once (British), no occupying force has ever succeeded in Afghanistan. Too bad the Obama Regime pays no more attention to history than the Dubya Regime did. Both Regimes are better at crafting revisionist history than paying attention to actual history.
The military industrial media complex that owns Obama certainly learned from history. They learned that when the Viet Nam occupation ended their revenue stream dried up. They will make the IrAfPak occupation last forever to assure an eternal revenue stream.
On the other hand, there was that Alexander fellow from Macedonia a while back...
To the present ruler of Amerika,
Yo Holmes, As long as you are relying on the very same people that have been installed by the idiots whom you replaced, you will never get to the truth about anything. I have already made up my mind about you and find you to be one of the greatest hoaxes against hope that has ever been perpetuated against the American people that trusted you to the high office you now occupy. If I have to, I will join with anyone who will be willing to help me in changing the disastrous course you have consigned our great nation's blood,treasures, and future on. The truth sir, is that you and Bush have wasted so much time and energy on this revengeful folly.
WE will soon be coming to your neck of the woods to show you we are serious about stopping this dastardly-disgrace--maybe We the People won't see you then, because we don't have the money to buy your time--but you will see us--till then.
Hey, what a coincidence. He also "rejects" single-payer as a viable solution to the woes of health-care delivery in the U.S.
That stuff he keeps stepping in doesn't look at all like a river.
While LBJ failed the US working class with respect to Viet Nam, at least we got civil rights and medicare from LBJ. Hell, even Nixon gave us the EPA and OSHA.
Obama's legacy will be 1) NO INSURER LEFT BEHIND, NO PATIENT LEFT A DIME disguised as "health care reform", 2)a financial industry that continues to be further de- regulated and more abusive, 3) an increase in corporate welfare of all kinds, and 4) an eternal IrAfPak occupation that will be fueled with the bodies of working class Americans who can't get a job anywhere else.
We have been in Afghanistan 8 years. We are not winning the hearts and minds of the Afghans. Most see us as occupiers, not as liberators. Our deficit swells. An exit srategy is no where to be found. Yes help build schools,roads, hospitals. Save lives of civilians and our soldiers.
Eternal occupation = eternal revenue stream for the military industrial media complex.
As any Viet vet can tell you, a modern army conducting traditional warfare cannot prevail against a guerrilla counter -insurgency. The Soviets learned this lesson the hard way. Apparently, a lesson Obama and his corporate handlers did not learn from Vietnam. But then again, they are more interested in war profiteering than anything else. Obama has demonstrated that human life carries no major significance to him as evidenced by his covert air-strikes on non-combatants, and his perpetuating the existential angst (a theme noted by Chris Hedges yesterday) of combat vets asked to endure years of battlefield stress by a group of elites who themselves never set foot on a battlefield. Even during the Vietnam War, vets could not be mandated to serve in a combat theatre for more than one year during any enlistment. Most of our current Vets have served in combat roles for three and to five years thanks to a measure called “stop gap” which circumvents contracts to insure indentured servitude of our troops. Many don’t know this, but over 100K Viet vets have killed themselves since the end of the Vietnam War. Almost twice the number killed in Vietnam. We are sitting on a powder keg of violence when these young people finally exit the military and return home. Twenty years from now the Vietnam War will look like a benign as compared to the War’s in Afghanistan and Iraq with regards to the destroyed lives of those who served. Meanwhile, Obama and his elitist friends will be writing memoirs, collecting million dollars speaking fees and living lavish life styles and vacationing on Martha’s Vineyard. Meanwhile, Obama and his elitist friends will be writing memoirs, collecting million dollars speaking fees and living lavish life styles and vacationing on Martha’s Vineyard.
"Even during the Vietnam War, vets could not be mandated to serve in a combat theatre for more than one year during any enlistment. Most of our current Vets have served in combat roles for three and to five years thanks to a measure called “stop gap” which circumvents contracts to insure indentured servitude of our troops."
In the Vietnam era there was a draft. You either went to war, went to Canada, or went to jail. There was an endless supply of cannon fodder back then. Not so today. I think the lack of a draft is also the reason for the seeming apathy of the public. Most parents know that their son or daughter is not going to get there ass shot off in some godforsaken desert half a world away. Most kids know that they are not going to join the armed services.
Give it a few years when the economy spirals even further downward.
The only jobs left for young people will be in the military.
Excellent posting, just excellent.
The suicide rate among the Viet Nam vets is increasing I'm told as we all get older. I believe you are quite correct about the problems these kids serving now are going to have.
We should be out of Afganistan. There is no rationale for staying.
P.S. as mentioned below theres no draft so the services have no choice but to keep sending the same folks. NOT good as you point out.
Blah blah blah, Obooba. Black is white and up is down. The spirit of W Bush lives on.
I will paraphrase;
If we appear to be repeating history or if we appear to be contradicting what we have said before, it is an illusion. This is because we are all about walking in a circle in which we only appear to be retracing our previous path or appear to be 180 degrees away from where we were a moment ago while we are really in a different place because it is a different time and time is history and time is change and time is wasting and time is an illusion and time is time when time was time before we knew that time is this time and ......................................................................................................
Excellently stated, Birdbrain. A lawyer couldn't have said it better.
Like Vietnam, Afghanistan is more than just our typical American March of Folly. It is also about resources. With Vietnam, it was about access to tin and rubber. With Afghanistan, it is about an oil pipeline that the Taliban refused to allow our oil companies to install there under Bush, but once we invaded the country and installed former Unocal executive Karzai, then the pipeline got underway.
Fighting for (fill in the nation here) and its freedom from tyranny is never the reason for these bootless adventures of ours. It is always about an organized theft of the nation's resources.
"Like Vietnam, Afghanistan is more than just our typical American March of Folly. It is also about resources."
More than that it's about keeping everyone in the region in line, sort of an object lesson. Look what we can do if you f*** with our designs for global domination.
"You never step in the same river twice."
Wow I heard that line this one time when I went to a seminar on Zen Buddhism. It really resonates with me. Obama is clearly pretty enlightened. I just wish you people would give him a chance to win the war on terror - you never bomb the same wedding party twice!
you bought into the paradigm :
war on terror.
it is like trying to wage war "against jealousy"...
It was a joke.
Joe
That explains why Obama considers himself "head & shoulders" above LBJ!
· Yr Obd't Servant
Or like a War against Truth.
Oh, wait ... the U.S. has already won that one.
After what the US did to the Soviet Union in Afghanistan
does anyone think that Vladimir Putin will let the US out of this Bush/Obama quagmire?
Putin seems to be letting out what everyone probably agreed already : that he has NO intention of diminishing his power in Russia..and that after the brief "respite" - he will run for the main leadership again..and perhaps medvedev - who is putin's protege anyway...knows what his role is.
be that as it may - that is no different from the USA and its potentates in congress , corporations and their "handpicked" "winners" and candidates such as obama, the clintons, etc...
but at least - in russia - putin and others make NO PRETENSES about being a "democracy" unlike the USA which preaches BIG about it, loudly, endlessly, everywhere in teh globe at the point of a gun and THEN
at HOME doesn't evne really practices it.
in the same way that the USA habitually preaches about "globalization", "free market", "deregulation".......
but when it comes to certain industries that are "too big to fail"
goes the route of PUBLIC funding, then protectionism, raising tariffs, dumping subsidized goods on weak countries that destroy their industries, .etc...
as the writer in asiatimesonline - henry ck liu - described in a very exhaustive expose of the US system and policies:
"THE USA is really the world's MAIN currency manipulator and the head of the global snake of currency manipulation".....
while it preaches about "sound money"...
or "the USA is really a Protectionist Nation PRETENDING to be *free market*".......
or now - in the case of afghanistan :
the USA preaches and threatens about "other countries interefering" in afghanistan or pakistan or iraq
WHILE IT is SITTING THERE illegally and criminally trying to expand its Empire right next door to the very countries IT threatens and warns NOT to "intefere".....
next thing you know - the USA is going to PREACH and THREATEN
Russia and Putin "not to interfere" if the USA INTEREFERES
INSIDE russia and iran!!
welllll..........in effect ....that has BEEN the US policy already....it's just that americans don't admit it to themseoles, including those that actually carry out THESE policies .......
but russians and putin KNOW .
Yep. Jobs come last about sums it up. The working people always come last. Thats why they are sleeping in the streets and losing their homes.
Maybe next time put the jobs and working people FIRST?
this is not the american way.
that is clear now.
the american way is talk BIG about "people first" -- but put the Money in the pockets of the few.
that is the same in its entire social structure which is corporate...
it doesn't matter if it's in community levels...or a small or big business...a church or religious organization...profit, nonprofit ..they are all of them just categories ....
but the american way is really :
make the most number of people fight for crumbs , then make them think they are living the american dream...and if they fail...they are at fault...it is never the system...and above all -- they are NEVER to question this system.
that's the american way.
Lets fool em and do it this time. Why wait?
there is only one way to look at obama now :
either he has NO intention in improving conditions by being bold in confronting capitalism itself -
or if he DOES - he does NOT know what to do. he and his advisers are all swimming in their capitalist "ocean" thinking there is land soon enough...not admitting or knowing that they are already drowning and dragging everyone else with them.
so they end up having policies that are nothing more than extremely destructive attempts to save face...each attempt leading to deeper drowning.
it is "pride in american capitalism" gone berserk.
All kill, no fill: dump him.
[Obama] "pledged a full debate "
HA! I can imagine the next Times article...
"The list of debaters invited will be kept secret for national security reasons and anonymous sources inside the Obama administration say that the results of the debate have already been negotiated between the white house and defence industry lobbyists."
jlocke123
Why Mr. Locke! Didn't you get the memo?? Everything will be transparent! No Lobbyist will be hired!....etc.....Nothing will be negotiated behind closed doors.
"But he took issue with assertions that the job of dismantling terrorism networks can be handled by drones and other alternatives to soldiers on the ground."
Well, yeah, if you're willing to put half a million or more soldiers on the ground and their boots on the necks of the Afghan people for a couple of generations. But of course as soon as you commit to that level of force the so-called* terrorists will have won that battle and have moved on to another convenient country which we could destroy and thus give added value to the so-called* terrorists.
--------------
* 'so-called' because the American military pretty much figures that anyone it kills overseas is the enemy-du-jour. American military credibility is pretty much zero.
Obama rejects Afghanistan-Vietnam comparison. Of course he's right:
They are each spelled differently.
In Vietnam the "problem" was "communism", in Afghanistan the "problem" is "Islamofascism".
We haven't assassinated the President of Afghanistan (yet) so he must be doing a good job.
Poet
Poet
The terrain is different, the fighting is different, the tactics are different, but you have indeed identified the real difference. They are spelled differently....but the political result will be the same. You can smell it in the air.
How this became the "good war" I'll never know. Perhaps the guys from 9/11 did train there, perhaps they did come from there......so they came from a country with a Feudal system of warlords, no central government, a population thats basically illeterate........so the Afgans planned this, financed it and executed this....and my Grandmother is Santa Claus.
Any fool can see this is a no win, should never have happened, should be stopped now before one more life is wasted. Well, apparently there are fools that can't see it.
Actually the training for the hijackers was mainly done at various airfields in the US and with airline pilot simulation software programs paid for with pakistani secret service and saudi money sent to the hijackers, some here in Florida.
I haven't heard of one Flight training school in Afghanistan that trained them.
Yep.....I was going round the houses to make my point. Afganistan nor Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. it was a bit of ego from the Bush Bunch. Its pretty much well known that the Saudis are involved in a lot of things, but we wouldn't want to upset them would we??????
And Poets right on the money.
"Mr. Obama pledged a full debate." You notice he did not say an HONEST debate.
"I think that most folks believe that we've now turned the corner where we might actually start seeing some positive economic growth in months to come. As you know, jobs tend to be a lagging indicator; they come last."
Layoffs are accelerating. Foreclosures are accelerating. Yes, both indicate that we have indeed "turned the corner".
EKATON
Excellent observation!
Although it is getting better for the uppers on Wall Street and their friends.
I'm sure a speech will stop them from doing what they did before. Oops! Guess not...that is exactly what they are doing.
Obomber sez: ""I think that most folks believe that we've now turned the corner where we might actually start seeing some positive economic growth in months to come."
***
A shining example of his special brand of newspeak, onto which each listener can project what he/she wants to hear.
Let's pick it apart just a little: "I think" ... "folks believe" ... "we might" ... "start seeing" ... "some positive" ... "in months to come."
Filtered through the Assimilated Press, this comes out: "Obama sez the recession has ended and the recovery is under way."
Someone above compared the "war on terror"(archaic) to a war on jealousy. One way to defeat jealously is to stop fucking your neighbor's wife! Perhaps if we stopped killing innocent men, women and children, and occupying their villages the level of terror worldwide would decrease. Fuck a debate, how about a nation wide referendum? I think the debate has been ongoing for almost 8 years. Kucinich had a plan years ago: we fund a pull out, and a truly multi-national peace keeping force(heavily Arab) moves in(including into Gaza-my words). Then when THEY get thrown out, those countries will be pretty much functioning on their own again. I know this all started out as a joke(the war on terror part)
Don't worry, Obama gave the banks a stern warning not to engage in risky practices in his speech yesterday.
*******
Seriously, the difference between the two is, our technology has come a long way... which means everything is more expensive. Instead of killing a person for the cost of a few bullets, we now probably spend tens of thousands of dollars on each person we kill. (civilian and combatant)
A wedding party will lower the cost per kill.
I'm sure Russia endorses us in Afghanistan, they have been there. That was Ronnie's plan; to break the bank in Russia. Now Russia is doing the same to the U.S., and all they have to do is say, "sure" (go right ahead).
It's just a shame all the GOOD people we kill along the way.
President Obama pledged a full debate before making further decisions on strategy.
Whoosh! Debate's over. We're going in. We're gonna win and win BIG!
What Obama banked on , clearly, was his imagined appeal in the campaign - for being "cool" to contrast with the "shrill hillary"...the "never say it but he's an old mean troglodyte mccain"....and all that kind of salesmanship...
and THEN he assumed that people are supposed to just buy whatever he sells them as the salesman in chief of his corporate masters - and debate was "already made" - such as
"we are going to WIN BIG in the RIGHT war"...
of course - if he thinks there is no comparison with vietnam - that is up to him - but he won't escape history...
Afghanistan might not have the "big muddies" that vietnam has..
it doesn't have the "vietcong"
it doesn't have singular leadership like Ho Chi Minh that gathered vietnamese nationalists
it doesn't have rice paddies or bamboo forests
it just has mountains, hills, valleys, many factions of taliban and tribes known to never have been collected together under one government and entirely hostile to that concept
it just has factions the vietnamese never had
it just has a reputation of making Empires , from alexander the great, to England, USSR and now the USA
dig their own graves...
yes - obama doesn't think there is a correlation at all......NONE at all...
he thinks the USA is EXEMPT from the fate of history on all empires - ESPECIALLY in afghanistan.
he thinks he is clever , and he thinks he is going to fool afghanis into accepting his American Empire because he thinks his empire is going to be better than Macedonia, Persia, Rome, Britain, USSR and that the afghanis will suddenly
"see the light" of america's "shining city on the hill"...
and FORGET THEIR own history of BURYING EMPIRES throughout history.
he is dreaming.
he should no longer be called OBAMA .. he should be called
oDUMBa
A brief glimpse of the future:
Sometime late in 2011, a US president, with approval ratings in the 20s, makes a televised announcement:
"I will not seek, nor will I accept, the nomination of my party for president of the United States."
Followed by headlines:
"President Denies Parallels with LBJ and Rejects Comparison."
LOL!
:p
What you said...DOUBLED!!!!
obama has a pattern of talking from both sides of the mouth.
he says "there is the danger of over-reach"......
and YET he talks about VICTORY and escalation in central asia ...and afghanistan is JUST the beginning, mind you.
so what does he call THAT? what does he call US militarization OUTSIDE of its own borders?
UNDER reach?
Regarding the "War on terror" transition from Bush to Obama, Nothing's changed.
Obama Rejects Afghanistan-Vietnam Comparison
____________________________________________
Why, it's like comparing longan and pomegranates!
Although the headline is eerily reminiscent of this one:
LBJ Rejects Điện Biên Phủ-Tet Offensive Comparison
· Yr Obd't Servant