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US-CANADA: Shared Border, Unilateral Policy?
TORONTO - Canada and the United States are on different wavelengths when it comes to a shared and increasingly hardening of what had been a sleepy border within North America.
One University of Toronto political scientist doubts this will change anytime soon in the wake of how "paranoia" in the U.S. about its northern frontier has continued under the administration of Barack Obama.
"The U.S. approach to border security has been consistently unilateral," said Stephen Clarkson, the author of "Does North America Exist: Governing the Continent After NAFTA and 9/11" . "Canada and Mexico have the option of doing what the Americans want and then consulting about how they will do that," he told IPS.
"As for the continental perimeter, there is one in the sense that antiterrorism and visa regulations [for both countries] have largely been harmonised to U.S. standards. At the same time, the U.S. has reinforced its land borders. The result is that we have both a fortress North America and an internal U.S. wall," he said.
Some of this has been fuelled by the insecurity within the U.S. towards the traditionally undefended northern border in the wake of the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington and the mistaken notion among some U.S. politicians, including the new U.S. Homeland Security secretary Janet Napolitano, that some of the airplane hijackers arrived via Canada.
She reiterated upon visiting Canada last week that she had been mistaken in her initial assertion about Canada but then urged her hosts to move on.
"What I regret is that Canada can't seem to get beyond one misstatement to what I'm trying to suggest," she said. "And what I am suggesting is to say we share security concerns, just as we share trade concerns, just as we share all kinds of other concerns," she told reporters.
While Canadians are worried about illegal guns and drugs coming into their country, the U.S. is preoccupied with terrorism and illegal immigration going south, as well as the presence of a large Muslim population in Canada, observed Clarkson.
At the same time, both Ottawa and Washington have maintained the posture that the insurgency in Afghanistan represents a real threat to the North American continent, he noted.
"Canada is one of the few countries along with the U.S. that defines the Afghan situation in terms of our national security," he said.
Nevertheless, the joint statement by Napolitano and Peter Van Loan, the Canadian public safety minister, that Canada and the U.S. will jointly assess security threats on their shared border is a major breakthrough and a departure from the unilateralism of George W. Bush, commented Reg Whittaker, political scientist at the University of Victoria and a security specialist.
"The U.S. would just make unilateral decisions about what they consider to be, who they consider to be threats, and what they consider being threats. So, it is perfectly appropriate that we have some kind of machinery in place to facilitate and create cooperation," he told IPS.
Greater sharing of perceived threats by Canadians and U.S. police and intelligence may eliminate the scenario where a Syrian-born Canadian citizen, Maher Arar, was automatically "kidnapped" in a U.S. city by U.S. officials and sent to a prison in his country of birth for torture during the Bush administration, Whittaker said.
"Instead of having ad hoc kind of arrangements that are subject to abuse, to have something that is more institutionalised and recognises from the American point of view that Canada has something to contribute, here, and Canadians should be respected and not told what to do," he said.
Also, it appears that the Conservative government in Ottawa has abandoned its initial position - while the party was in opposition - of negotiating a joint immigration and refugee arrangement under a so-called North American security perimeter.
This represents a recognition by even a right-wing, supposedly more pro-U.S. administration in Ottawa that Canada as the smaller player in North America would invariably have to adopt U.S. laws and approaches in total if it went this route, added Whittaker.
"That is the problem with a security perimetre. One set of rules that are exactly the same [on] who gets into the country, and so on. Given the power relationship between Canada and the U.S. that means Canada gives up its autonomy to have its own policies. And there are all kinds of issues where Canada has really distinctive rules abut immigration. For example, positively encouraging francophone immigration [because of Quebec in the Canadian federation]," he said.
Nevertheless, despite the advance of a joint threat assessment, Brian Masse, the opposition Member of Parliament from the border city of Windsor, Ontario pointed to what he described as the "militarisation" of the Canada U.S. border. He expressed concern about the presence of U.S. gunboats, Black Hawk helicopters, drone planes, fences and spy towers on the U.S. side.
Masse is critical of a new feature in the Napolitano/Van Loan announcement that will allow U.S. and Canadian law enforcement personnel to ride in each others' vessels in the lakes and waterways along the shared border and enforce the other countries' laws. "It allows on the Canadian side Americans to arrest Canadians and also on the American side Canadians to arrest Americans," the Canadian politician told IPS.
He remarked on the introduction on the U.S. side of Coast Guard vessels carrying auto cannons that have the capacity to shoot 750 1,200 rounds per minute.
Masse remarked this follows an earlier and little discussed announcement that U.S. troops will be allowed with the permission of Ottawa to enter Canada in an emergency situation.
He also stated that the Canadian government missed the opportunity in the recent discussions with the homeland security secretary to push for a loosening of the Canada U.S. border.
"[The U.S. policy] is making our border like the Mexican border... I can't imagine a threat coming from Canada. I mean we all want to be more secure. Does that require Black Hawk helicopters [and] gun boats?" he asked.
Canada has not recovered from the negative impact that the 9/11 attacks have had on north-south trade within North America, commented Steven Globerman, who teaches business at Western Washington university in Bellingham, Washington and is the co-author of the recent book, "The Impact of 9/11 on Canada-US Trade".
While U.S. exports to Canada returned to a normal level by 2004, Canadian exports have between 2001 and 2007 declined by about 15 to 20 percent because of a hardened 9/11 U.S. border, Globerman told IPS.
Among the factors contributing to this trend has been the disruption of a formerly seamless border under the North American free trade agreement where parts produced within continental manufacturing operations such as auto and steel crossed back and forth without disruption.
Another manifestation of this has been the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative travel rules in the U.S. which obligate the carrying of valid documentation by anyone including Canadians crossing into the U.S. Many commentators have observed that because more Canadians carry passports than Americans, it is widely expected that U.S. travel to Canada will decline.
"All of these various phenomena [of disruption] contribute to Canadian goods costing more in the U.S. because it costs more to bring them across the border," Globerman said. "If you raise the price obviously you are going to reduce your sales, whether we are talking about goods that are sold to other producers in the U.S. or goods that are sold to retailers."



35 Comments so far
Show AllThe US and Canadian border patrols have become one agency. This happened more than 2 years ago, and it is not mentioned in this article. Why?
I have had extremely disturbing experiences crossing the US/Canadian border, specifically returning to the US, where I heard border patrol officers say things like "Oh we'll fins something on you" and "Why do you have so much money when you're a student" to a Canadian student crossing back into the US to return to college.
Make no mistake about it, the US/Canadian border is an unfriendly reminder that our governments want us to shut up and stay at home.
"our governments want us to shut up and stay at home"
Well-said.
As soon as security changes began overtaking common sense at our border with the US, I decided to stop travelling to the US. It has been eight years. No way will I subject myself to security goons or participate in propping up state-induced fear and paranoia.
Hear, hear. But even if you fly somewhere else, your name will probably be run against the U.S. no-fly list.
baruchzed,
I respect your comments with regards to the Canada/United States border. In my profession I cross the border on a monthly basis and so far have not run into any difficulties with Canadian or American authorities...But...I have heard many stories from those (Canadians) who have had negative experiences and many have vowed to only enter the United States if absolutely necessary.
In a previous post I reminded our readers (American and Canadian) that in the not so distant past Canadians and Americans would proudly point to the existence of the longest undefended border in the world. The Canada/United States border was once a symbol of international cooperation and friendship.
I was born in Canada (Quebec) and I am a citizen of both the United States and Canada. My home is in the greater Atlanta area.
Thomas Gilbert
We are all Americans!
North, Central and South America!
When politicians use America to describe the U.S., it shows how small they think.
It might be done as a mind control thing so U.S. citizens think they are the center of the Universe.
----
Militarizing the border does nothing for trade, produces nothing of value for tax dollars spent.
All because we fear Afghanistan blow back!
There was a very interesting poll asked of thousands of people worldwide on travel to other countries.
The first question they were asked is "In what country do you feel you would be most welcomed as a Visitor"?
Canada was voted number one with countries like Australia and New Zealand close behind.
The USA was down in the mid 20's.
They then asked "if money was no object where would you most like to visit"?
I was quite surprised to see Canada was at number 1 again.
Please let us NOT Harmonize with our US Neighbors. Let us keep our own immigration and security policies. If the USA does not want our products, other countries will buy them.
We tried a policy of bailouts in concert with the USA to "save Chrysler and GM" and that is going to increse our deficit by 10 billion dollars to an estimated 50 billion.
Let us not copycat poor policy because the US Government thinks it good for the USA while expecting we in Canada even warrant concern in Washington.
When the number 1 defenders of Canadian Sovereignity is the Bloc Quebecois, then we have a problem here.
I long to replace the sign at the Blaine border crossing with a new one which reads: Welcome to the United States, Home of the Terrified. The entire Homeland Security Agency is so reminiscent of 1930s Nazi crap, and there seems to be no one in my country's infrastructure literate enough to see and understand this. I was so hopeful that the new political administration would begin the dismantling of these draconian institutions, but, alas, they seem to be following the same downward spiral path to destruction. We, the people [North Americans/Norteamericanos] need to band together and stop the militarization of our nations. It doesn't take a genius to understand that it is originating in Washington DC. MichaelC
I used to regularly go down through blaine on visits to the USA. I have not done so in about 10 years nor do I forsee myself doing it again for a long while. It is not worth the hassle.
My law abiding ,worked all his life without being unemployed straight as an arrow cousin once came to visit. He wanted to go over the border just to say he had been in the United States on his visit heare from North Alberta.
He was held for 6 hours as they searched his van and questioned him. They did not like his answer when asked "what is your prupose in entering the USA?"
He said "I am going down for a cup of coffee because I have never been out of Canada" :)
GW,
I wonder how many people have had similar experiences crossing into the United States. Your cousin's experience certainly is not an isolated event. Perhaps we will hear from other Canadians regarding their border experiences in this insane post 9/11 era. Also it would be interesting to see more comments from United States citizens regarding their experiences crossing over into Canada.
GW, I know if I were your cousin that would be the first and last cup of coffee I would ever have in the United States. It is so unfortunate that his first journey outside of the borders of Canada exposed him to that ugliness better known as the national security apparatus. A good man treated as if he were a criminal....
Thomas Gilbert
I was in the Blaine line-up 4 or 5 years ago behind a couple with two very young children. I said to my wife "they meet the profile" and sure enough they were pulled over for secondary inspection. The family was, to me, clearly of Asian Indian descent (Hindu or secular, not Muslim) but I guess border security stops any non-pales.
How about trash bins along the southbound lanes with signs reading DEPOSIT HABEAS CORPUS HERE?
My experiences crossing the Canadian border have not always been good.
By law as an American I should be allowed into Canada for 6 months and there are many Canadians who spend 6 months in Florida every year.
I have been turned back at the border twice which means an 800 mile round trip for me. The first time I was turned back I was told by the border guards I could enter Canada once a month to monitor my property and when I tried to enter Canada a month later I was turned back.
I have no criminal record and have several hundred thousand dollars invested in Canada. I now have a work permit..but if my work permit is not renewed I have to wonder if I will have trouble crossing the border into Canada again.
The American border may be worse but I can not say that the Canadian border has been a breeze for me. How would you like to own property and have tenants and wonder whether you will be able to go see what is going on in your property?
As the date to renew the work permit came closer every time I crossed the border I was pulled to the side and questioned. I have asked to see those records so that I can correct any inaccuracies.
My guess is that there are very few individual Americans who have bought property in Canada...but I would like to know if I have had bad luck or whether this is a recurring problem for Americans who own property in Canada.
And there is anti American sentiment in Canada. Some Canadians have told me they have been happy that their border is protected from Americans. So no sympathy from Canadians when an American has trouble crossing the border.
"By law as an American I should be allowed into Canada for 6 months ... "
Sorry, but as a non-Canadian, you are not ENTITLED to enter Canada at all. Perhaps it is your attitude that is causing you difficulty. Try a little humility. Or get a Nexus pass.
I think a world without anthropoid apes patrolling both sides of the border would be a better place.
"think a world without anthropoid apes patrolling both sides of the border would be a better place." (winning ticket)
I agree but there is no money to be made in it. These so called border security initiatives are just another way to allow for private concerns (Corporations) to enrich themselves via the public treasury. Great deal if you happen to be a McDonnell Douglas..etc etc..etc..etc...All the usual subjects are now in the protecting the "homeland" business. (That word still gives me the creeps) Keeping us safe........from????.....
Colleen,
I cannot adequately address your comment regarding your experiences as a United States citizen [with income producing property in Canada] entering the country but I can tell you that American investment in real property in Canada is huge.
"And there is anti American sentiment in Canada."(Colleen)
Canada is no different in that regard than anyone else. But the "Anti-American sentiment" you refer to has more to do with United States policy and its impact on the world community than it does with the American people themselves. Colleen you will find more criticism of the United States within the United States itself than you will find in Canada.
"Some Canadians have told me they have been happy that their border is protected from Americans." (Colleen)
Yes Colleen there are idiots everywhere but overall the citizens of Canada view their neighbors to the south as "our American cousins."
"So no sympathy from Canadians when an American has trouble crossing the border"
I disagree with the above statement. You would find many Canadians who would readily sympathize with your difficulties regarding crossing the border into Canada.
Colleen I hope your next visit to Canada will be a much more pleasant one than what you have described in your above comment.
Thomas Gilbert
Thank you Thomas. I'm not sure why I had the problems I had.I have been active in opposing the Bush administration..but I have never broken the law. The border guards have at times been told to pull me over by some information in their computer. I am trying to find out what has been written there. I liked being in Canada but being uncertain about whether I can come in is a very big problem. Many Americans assume it will be easy to get into Canada...and Canadians think that the US border is difficult. The Canadian border can also be difficult
and you are right..there have been Canadians who were surprised that I had trouble crossing the border (I was a little overly dramatic there...but some Canadians do delight in causing trouble for Americans.)
realdim
I was interviewed for more than an hour by teams of border guards..and then sent back. I have no criminal record at all. I have never been arrested or in a court of law in any capacity except as a perspective juror. There is no reason to send me back ..I had some pillows in my car and that is what set it off and I am an artist. Canadians are very protectionist about jobs.
There are treaties between the two nations and thats why I wrote
"I should be allowed into Canada for 6 months" and I know of many Canadians who are in Florida for 6 months and own property there.
But the reality is there is no protection through the law. Just on a whim I could be sent back to the US and I know that now. I am far more sympathetic to immigrants now after my experience in Canada.
What is the worst though is that I was told that I could cross over the next time and then turned back. And I had some electricians waiting to do work on a building which had knob and tube wiring and a cat that was abandoned in the building.
Once you leave your own nation you have very little legal protection imo.
The laws do not apply to you if you are a foreign national.
(I won't use Nexus because I am nervous about an iris scan. My eyes are very important to me
http://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/prog/nexus/iris-eng.html I would rather have a strip search then jeopardize my eyes.)
Canada has of late blocked peace activists from Entering Canada and or enviromentalists based on lists provided to them by the FBI. Who the heck knows whats on those lists?
At the same time GW Bush was once more In Canada, this time at a forum in Toronto so go figure.
There ARE ugly Americans, just as there are ugly Canadians but just as with any people in the world , most folk are decent sorts. I have met many Americans visiting BC and like chatting with them about their visit. I empathize with them when they have bad experiences just because they are Americans.
Now *I* am certainly Anti-a number of things.
I am Anti-Corporatist and Anti-Militarist. The more any Government in the world adopts Militarism and Corporatism, the more I will be opposed to that Government.
There are certainly other things I am against but none of those are because where a person happened to be born, or what color skin s/he was born inside of.
As of Monday (June 1st) Canadians are required to produce a passport to enter the US.
I can't wait for the howls of protest from the American towns and cities when the inevitable gigantic loss of Canadian business occurs.
What a mess this world has become! Wow!
It's really sad to watch freedom and dignity be destroyed
for corporate profit. All I can recomend is to . Keep Left
When you have policies that murder millions of people, directly through war and indirectly through sanctions and other sabotage techniques, you're probably wise to be paranoid.
There are 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world and counting. If we don't get our elected officials to stop bombing, invading, torturing, raping and killing them soon, our children and grandchildren will not be safe.
We can safely assume that Muslims are raising their children to find a way to stop us.
We can be sure that, as technology advances and our heavy weapons become absolete in favor of very lethal "portable" weapons, the balance of power will change, and the grandchildren of the perpetual Muslim holocaust that the US, England and my extended family in Israel have oppressed for so very long will exact revenge. We are creating lots of martyrs and jihadists every day.
"We can safely assume that Muslims are raising their children to find a way to stop us."
Some and probably most Muslims are just like us and don't want war. To me it seems like there is this minority of about 30% or so that exists in all these groups and is willing to go to war. The rest seem cowed by the ones who are violent. Most people seem interested in protecting themselves and their loved ones...
If we spent the money we now spend on weaponry on helping these average people we might be able to change this constant use of war...
Canadian MP Brian Masse certainly seems to be AWAKE.
Wherein he speaks of militarisation of the border and refers to the "earlier and little discussed announcement that U.S. troops will be allowed with the permission of Ottawa to enter Canada in an emergency situation", he's definitely right on both counts and seems to be speaking of Northern Command, NORTHCOM, although maybe not directly. I'm not sure if the Black Hawk helicopters are of the U.S. military, or the CIA, or .... If they're being operated by the military, then I guess Brian Masse then is speaking directly, just not explicitly, about NORTHCOM.
NORTHCOM is certainly about establishing a "Fortress America" or "Fortress North America", whichever of the two ways it's normally referred to. I think recall that the former is the usual reference. www.globalresearch.ca has numerous articles on or at least seriously about NORTHCOM.
There is no realistic situation in which military troops of either country will be needed in the other country, but there still is a strategic purpose for trying to make the public believe the contrary is sufficiently probable that the public should support this militarisation.
The IPS article is certainly about reality, but while the artcle isn't extensive, at all, it nonetheless is about a reality that's full of more political fear-mongering bs! It mostly or wholly consists of political lies with the purpose of trying to instill fear into the minds of the public. And wherein the governments of the two countries, the parties in power anyway, speak of the "insurgency" (which it really isn't) in Afghanistan being a potential future threat for both Canada and the USA, this also is full of damn politics of deceit; plus, I guess to some degree anyway, incompetence, [again]. As disgustingly, nauseatingly usual!
They strategically need to keep up all of the deceitful fear-mongering about potential terrorist threats. After all, they aren't about to give up on their project to try to conquer and dominate Afghanistan and, by the looks of it, Pakistan. They're not about to give up on their construction of massive military bases in Afghanistan, positioning themselves ever more strategically against Russia and, possibly anyway, China; plus ... right next door to oil-rich Iran. After all, they need these because they're definitely not ready to give up on trying to achieve global economic domination, most certainly including over energy resources.
They therefore strategically need the population of the USA to continue to support the war in and on Afghanistan (and Pakistan), which apparently most "leftists", "liberals", "progressives", ... in the USA have been doing and evidently aren't ready to cease doing. Most Canadians want withdrawal from Afghanistan, but evidently most Americans continue to support the (criminal) war there.
"Silence on Afghanistan: If Only It Were a Joke",
by Laura Flanders, Apr 2 2009
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/02-5
There are some articles posted at Uruknet and by Arthur Silber saying much like Laura Flanders does and I got the link for this above article by her from one of Arthur Silber's articles posted at Uruknet over the past couple or few days.
There are people with sound wits who realise that the war on Afghanistan (and Pakistan) must be stopped and now, asap, not some years from today. Enough of these people are writing about this, but like they or some of them have now said, many voters who voted for Obama side against continuing war in Iraq, while siding with the opposite for Afghanistan (and the new extension, Pakistan).
The Obama administration and the real ruling elites of the government of the USA aren't prepared to stop their supreme international crimes any time soon and given that they do this because of what they say were the 9-11 attacks, they are still in need of trying to instill fear in the minds of the public; to try to avoid losing more of the public's support.
They want to avoid political problems with the public, so they strategically need to continue to lie to the public; to keep'em afraid, very, very afraid, and to therefore keep'em fooled, believing that the war on Afghanistan was justified when it really never was, which is a fact many (if not most) people in the USA still seem to not be aware of.
Most Americans don't seem to yet be aware of the fact that the [whole] GWoT has been based on deceptions; the [whole] of it!
This will continue with a following post regarding the 9-11 Commission's officials having come to denounce the results of their inquiry, what little there was of it.
This continues from my first post in this CD page.
Most Americans are surely unaware of the fact that many, if not all, of the 9-11 Commission's officials have come to denounce the results of the inquiry and all of the corrupt, rogue obstruction from the Bush-Cheney administration. It's been known for years that the Admin. heads deliberately prevented the commissioners from being able to conduct a real investigation.
Some resources for this latter topic are the following sampling.
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/911questions.html
EXCERPT:
Some Questions from the Family Steering Committee of the 9/11 Commission
What connections did our government have with the terrorists prior to 9/11? Specifically: State department negotiations with Taliban re: pipeline through Afghanistan; interaction with the Taliban and/or bin Laden; CIA training and arming of terrorists
In what ways might our government's policies toward Saudi Arabia have contributed to September 11th?
On September 9th the president had a war plan on his desk to go into Afghanistan. What was the origin of this plan? Why was this plan drawn up even before the September 11th attacks?
Why did Donald Rumsfeld, immediately after the September 11th attack, say that Saddam Hussein was involved?
Does the FBI have proof that it was in fact Al Qaeda that perpetrated 9/11? Do they know if the names the hijackers used were their real names?
END OF EXCERPT
Plenty more questions continue this above list in the PBS page, which only provides a sampling, instead of a thorough set.
Selecting one of the above examples:
"On September 9th the president had a war plan on his desk to go into Afghanistan. What was the origin of this plan? Why was this plan drawn up even before the September 11th attacks? "
The second, so last, question is answered by the first sentence. After all, if the plan was on Bush's desk on Sept. 9th, then the plan was obviously drawn up before Sept. 11th.
As for its origin, it was about ENERGY resources; namely, those of the Caspian Sea or that region, and the related pipeline, for piping the oil through Afghanistan to get it to Pakistan and, some people say anyway, India. From there the oil would become internationally in the control of Big Oil and Big Finance USA, which'd share with oil corporations of NATO allies that "helped" in Afghanistan and would continue to help after conquest is achieved.
Conquest doesn't seem to be a feasible outcome, but it's part of the plan nevertheless.
The ruling elites want to keep the public fooled, unaware or un-critically aware of the above, which is reality, has been all along; therefore, they use strategic fear-mongering and "news" media that either omits reporting or underreports on the real reality(ies).
"Constitutional Expert Slams 9/11 Commission", April 22, 2009
(url broken over two lines)
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/04/
constitutional-expert-slams-911.html
EXCERPT:
Constitutional expert Jonathan Turley said yesterday:
[The 9/11 Commission] was a commission that was really made for Washington - a commission composed of political appointees of both parties that ran interference for those parties - a commission that insisted at the beginning it would not impose blame on individuals. So it's the ideal Washington commission - a commission that would investigate without any reprecussions.
Indeed, the 9/11 Commission itself admitted as much:
...
Additionally, as explored in the book The Commission by respected journalist Philip Shenon , the Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission was an administration insider whose area of expertise is the creation and maintenance of "public myths" thought to be true, even if not actually true. He controlled what the Commission did and did not analyze, then ....
Combined with the fact that the evidence the government presented to the Commission lacked any credibility, and that the Commission itself believes the government misled it, it is obvious to anyone paying attention that the 9/11 Commission Report should be treated solely as a work of fiction.
END OF EXCERPT
That article has plenty of supporting resource links.
I wonder if the school bully I knew long ago lived in fear.
It does seem that he had built a fence around himself.
This continues my prior post with respect to 9-11 Commissioners being critical of the inquiry and the Bush administration's obstructiveness; their corruption of the inquiry and the information the public received. And the following link was obtained from the article excerpted in my second post in this CD page.
For this excerpt, I'll insert NYT, WP, ... within parentheses for the NYT, Washington Post, ..., articles that are linked as the sources of the information.
"Highly-Credible People
Question 9/11
9/11 COMMISSIONERS"
http://911summary.com/911c.php
EXCERPT:
The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said (NYT) that the CIA (and likely the White House) "obstructed our investigation".
The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, (WP) yet didn't bother to tell the American people (free subscription required).
Indeed, the co-chairs of the Commission now admit that the Commission largely operated based upon political considerations. (SFGate)
...
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that "There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn't have access . . . ." (SALON)
9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said "We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting" (CNN)
Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: "It is a national scandal" (SALON); "This investigation is now compromised" (BOSTON.COM); and "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up". (DEMOCRACYNOW.ORG)
The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) who led the 9/11 staff's inquiry, said "I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described .... The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years.... This is not spin. This is not true." (WP)
END OF EXCERPT
The last two sentences of what's quoted from John Farmer seems a little confusing to me, for he says it's "not spin", which I guess is in reference to his words, while following that with it not being true, which (sort of comically) seems (in terms of logic) to refer to his words again. That shouldn't be what he meant to say and maybe I'm just interpreting the logic incorrectly, but I think to have that part right and if I do, then he's instead saying that his words aren't spin and that what was 'described' (and not his statement) isn't true. The WP article should certainly clarify what he precisely means, but I haven't yet read it, so maybe it doesn't provide the needed clarification.
The part of the page that was omitted in the above excerpt was omitted for similar reasons, the logic seeming to be a little off-base.
QUOTE: "9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says "I don't believe for a minute we got everything right", that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first draft" of history." (a podcast at a 9-11-related website)
What Lee Hamilton is therein quoted saying logically seems to say that he doesn't believe that they "got everything right"; doesn't believe "the Commission was set up to fail"; doesn't believe "people should keep asking questions about 9/11"; etcetera. However, I think what he means, purportedly anyway, is that only the first negative, the "don't believe", or my "doesn't believe", is what he meant to say in the first case, while he does believe the rest; believing that "the Commission was set up to fail", "people should keep asking questions about 9/11", and so on.
That would be the fitting meaning, but ... well, the podcast (.WMV file) should reveal what the real answer is to this questioning )of mine).
After all, he started by saying "don't believe ..., that ..., that ...", which logically means that the "don't" or rather "don't believe" applies to each ", that ..." as well as what immediately follows "don't believe", up to the first comma. I don't think that that's what he meant to say and that he would therefore have neglected to say, f.e., "don't believe ..., and believe that ..., that ..." and so on; until the end of the sentence or the next instance of "don't" or logical terminator, switcher, whatever.
I just don't think he really meant for the "don't" to apply throughout the remainder of the sentence, from that point onward, to the end of the sentence. And I've found that political officials sometimes (or too often) speak in terms we're expected to understand but which nonetheless are logically off a little and sometimes more than a little.
Journalists should work to immediately catch these errors or possible errors and then ask for clarification, but many journalists don't do this; western journalists anyway.
I'll check the linked resources some day; maybe.
So, and again, Canadian MP Brian Masse is absolutely right to be seriously concerned; as described in the above IPS article this CD page is for. And I wonder what he thinks about the 9-11 attacks, the 9-11 Commission's report, the 9-11 Truth Movement, and everything or anything else that's related, which can certainly include the war on Afghanistan, as well as the one on Iraq and the new extension of all of this, the war on Pakistan, which the war on northern Pakistan seems to be leading to; a war on Pakistan. After all, it is on or against the Pakistan's national sovereignty that the war is waged by the U.S. there.
He might be very, very concerned about all of these matters.
"John F. Butterfield May 31st, 2009 2:03 am
I wonder if the school bully I knew long ago lived in fear. It does seem that he had built a fence around himself."
THAT apparently is a fine perspective on the bully and maybe the U.S. "elites" and their political workers in the White House have been lying and fear-mongering based on lies and grotesque or extreme distortions for so long now that they've brainwashed themselves into believing all of this bs of theirs and therefore instilled serious fear within or in themselves. They probably are more afraid than they've been able to succeed in making the general public fearful of what these psychopathic and delusional "elites" want to get the public to fear.
They're certainly insecure, irrational, pathological liars, and so on, and maybe they've been at this for so long now that they've brainwashed themselves into believing their own lies, fearing what they initially only wanted others to fear, etcetera. They are irrational and delusional; psychopathically so. They're bullies ... to the extreme.
MikeCorbeil or anyone who cares to comment
Do you have any opinions about why there is a difference in the view of the Afghanistan war between Canadians and Americans?
Some differences I have observed as an American...
There has never been conscription in Canada. Canadians rely on volunteers for their military
Canadians are very aware of any deaths of their military who are called fallen heroes. A military soldier who has died will have a funeral that is reported in the news and there will be people who line the route along the major roads that his body will be taken as his body is returned home. They are there to recognize his service and to commemorate his death as a fallen hero.
By contrast Americans have until recently hidden the deaths of soldiers. To my mind it is like Americans are denying there is a cost in human lives and suffering to a war, while Canadians are acutely aware of the loss of a Canadian.
(What is interesting to me is to see a personality in Canada..that I think would be a person who would have supported Bush and his wars ..if he were American ..but that personality as a Canadian and influenced by Canadian culture opposes the war in Afghanistan)
What I want for my nation, for the United States, is for us to have a sense of unity that we would want to help one another rather than ignoring the misfortune and suffering that happens within any society. Americans will attack one another and will deny social services and blame the victim ..in a way that I don't think happens as often among Canadians.
It is this lack of compassion and lack of concern for one another that is creating some damage to the unity of the United States...and that lack of unity is hidden by an extreme nationalism by some people...who then try to browbeat people who dissent
Obama imo is trying to reunify the nation...even as we disagree about solutions.
"colleen May 31st, 2009 9:42 am
MikeCorbeil or anyone who cares to comment
Do you have any opinions about why there is a difference in the view of the Afghanistan war between Canadians and Americans?
There has never been conscription in Canada. Canadians rely on volunteers for their military
Canadians are very aware of any deaths of their military who are called fallen heroes. A military soldier who has died will have a funeral that is reported in the news and there will be people who line the route along the major roads that his body will be taken as his body is returned home. They are there to recognize his service and to commemorate his death as a fallen hero."
THIS IS perhaps too tardy for a response, but I'll write and post it anyway.
I don't know that the funerals of Cdn troops killed in the war in Afghanistan have much attendance, but have seen through news reports that there is a public funeral in, I believe, every case and with military members as well as family and probably locals attending. At least there's public recognition of the troops who are killed in the war; there being no efforts that I'm aware of for trying to bury or hide this fact.
However, I don't about there never having been conscription in Canada. F.e., I don't know if there was, or not, for WW II and/or I. There certainly wasn't any Cdn military involvement in the Vietnam War, though. So there certainly wasn't conscription for that war, either.
Maybe that is one of the reasons for the difference between Cdns and Americans regarding the present war in Afghanistan, even if there also isn't any conscription in the U.S. for any of the GWoT wars. Otoh, the way the U.S. National Guard has been basically or really forced into overseas service in these GWoT wars, maybe their case can be actually considered to be conscription; because the N.G. aren't supposed to serve overseas.
I imagine Cdns would feel the same way if the troops had been sent into the war in Iraq, but am not sure; because I spoke with a couple of young adults, a young man and young woman, at the beginning of the month and this little discussion was interesting, say.
They worked at a convenience store in downtown Sherbrooke, Quebec, and we somehow got onto the topic of the war in Afghanistan; perhaps or probably because I regularly speak with people I encounter during my outings. She said that her boyfriend is in the war in Afghanistan, while the young man has a friend who is also there. So while I expressed my total disagreement with this war, I still expressed some sympathy by saying that I hope their friends make it back home okay. And their reactions, esp. hers, were funny.
She is so pissed off about and opposed to the war in Afghanistan that her reaction was an expression like of not particularly caring whether her boyfriend makes it back healthy, or not; having an expression of disgust, like of the boyfriend's stupidity, .... Funny, she was.
The young man didn't have the same reaction, but made it clear that if his friend dies in the war, then he won't be holding it against the Taliban.
Both of these people were in defence of Afghan defence against the west's forces of aggression. And we all agreed about this.
That was good, but where the short discussion became interesting, or rather odd in terms of their reactions and views is when I said that the war on Iraq was also wholly criminal, wholly unjustifiable. They, and especially the young woman, seemed to believe that this war has been justifiable and I don't know why, not having asked her, but maybe it's only due to Canadian troops not serving in this war, or possibly that and thinking that Saddam Hussein was a particularly evil man or leader. Whatever their reasons, though, I firmly stated that this war has always been based on lies and could never be justifiable.
I'll leave my reply to your question at this, but will finish reading your post after submitting this and if there's more that I can provide for information or view regarding what the rest of your post says or queries, then I'll add another post.
"colleen May 31st, 2009 9:42 am
...
By contrast Americans have until recently hidden the deaths of soldiers. To my mind it is like Americans are denying there is a cost in human lives and suffering to a war, while Canadians are acutely aware of the loss of a Canadian."
CDNS are more aware thanks to the fact that the Cdn federal government hasn't banned public coverage of the funerals and specific, by name, reporting of the killed troops.
In the U.S., I don't think it's that Americans are hiding the deaths of U.S. troops, but that the Bush-Cheney administration ruled that there could be no public images of the coffins returned for troops killed in the GWoT wars and the U.S. news media hasn't had a choice about this. Gold Star Families and other families of U.S. troops killed in these wars certainly demanded for the returning coffins of dead troops to be covered in the news media, as well as demanding more regarding these dead troops from the Bush-Cheney administration, which despotically, diabolically, and unconstitutionally refused to act honourably about this.
That's the main or real problem in the U.S., as far as I'm aware anyway.
colleen:
"(What is interesting to me is to see a personality in Canada..that I think would be a person who would have supported Bush and his wars ..if he were American ..but that personality as a Canadian and influenced by Canadian culture opposes the war in Afghanistan)"
I THINK that that's likely, if not surely, true; sadly, too. There shouldn't be such variation with individuals, but there unfortunately is with many people who act in alternatively good and bad ways due to not being really [principled], not having a sufficient amount of real moral conscience.
Culture surely plays a serious part in people's behaviour, as you describe; I believe.
colleen:
"What I want for my nation, for the United States, is for us to have a sense of unity that we would want to help one another rather than ignoring the misfortune and suffering that happens within any society. Americans will attack one another and will deny social services and blame the victim ..in a way that I don't think happens as often among Canadians."
I'M NOT sure it doesn't often happen among Cdns. They apparently are pretty good about the Cdn governments sending Cdn taxpayer dollars for humanitarian aide in foreign countries where populations certainly need aide; but when it comes to really and seriously caring about the Third World population segment that exists in Canada, now Cdns who aren't poor usually don't really care; and many blame the people in this poverty group. Those Cdns who don't blame the poorest of the country otherwise do usually ignore and want to ignore this socio-economic injustice that exists in Cdn provinces.
Social financial aide for the poorest is provided in both countries and is higher and longer-lasting in Quebec, but the amount of aide varies from province to province and I think Quebec's is the highest. Good for the poor in Quebec, sure; but prices are much higher here for essential items than they are in the U.S., too. Based on what someone said in a post of yesterday at CD about the price of milk in grocery stores in the U.S., the price is nearly double in Canada, certainly in Quebec anyway. Fuel for motor vehicles is more expensive. Clothing often or usually costs two to three times more than in the U.S. and for the very same items of clothing; same manufacturers and so on. Import tarrifs were eliminated by the present government of Quebec, but consumers evidently aren't getting clothing at better prices than before. Etcetera.
Do most Cdns care about the socio-economic injustices that should be resolved in just, fair, and constructive ways, which'd benefit [everyone] without providing enough financial social assistance that it'd permit the poorest to be able to have savings accounts in which money would just keep accumulating? Evidently [not].
Do most Cdns even care about the fact that there is no real democracy here? Evidently [not]. After all, there are related movements, organisations for trying to obtain healthy corrections from governments in Ca, but these groups apparently do not represent [most] Cdns.
colleen,
There are also the First Nations Cdns, the indigenous Indians and Inuit, who are disgustingly disregarded and regularly have their rights "trampled" upon. The situation is similar in the U.S.
Do Cdns care more about aboriginal rights than Americans do? Apparently not. And as far as my limited knowledge goes, I've seen news reports on Cdn government departments, the Fisheries and Oceans department of the federal government anyway, blatantly commit hegemonious, hypocritical, tyrannical, ... violence against First Nations Cdns. An example was the Dept of F&O, aka DFO, which violently intervened when fishermen of a Cdn First Nations tribe in the Maritime provinces, I think in the vicinity of PEI, Prince Edward Island, or else NS, Nova Scotia, or near both just a few years ago. The colonialist, ... white Euro-descendant and pig (and destructive) commercial fishermen of this area were fuming with violent anger because some aboriginal fishermen were out doing some very, very modest and environmentally non-destructive fishing with their small boats. The DFO sent in men with seriously powerful boats and they literally rammed into and over the little boats of the aboriginal fishermen; and while these very or totally modest fishermen were in these little boats in [their] native waters.
Not all Cdns are violent, even in terms of only thoughts, vis-a-vis the aboriginal peoples of Canada; but many nonetheless are.
And the militarisation of the U.S.-Ca border is a very, very serious issue with the Mohawks, whose territory lies on both sides of the arbitrary border established by the invaders, the "conquistadors" of England and France. By natural, native right [and] legal treaties, these people are to be free to travel anywhere they want within their territory without any gun-toting guards at borders, but the Cdn government (and possibly U.S. government) is allowing or imposing armed, weaponised customs guards at borders on what [is] Mohawk territory. The customs buidling or facility on the U.S. side of I believe the bridge that crosses over from upstate NY to Cornwall, Ontario, is apparently not on Mohawk territory, but the customs facility on the Cdn side of this border crossing is, and the guards will be weaponised there, which is against TREATY, which [is] mutually-agreed LAW.
www.mohawkNationNews.com will have plenty of information and reporting on this latter topic. I subscribe to its emails, but haven't had the time to read most of them for a while now. I still have and take the time to see what each of the emails is about; what the articles are. So I know the website will have all of these emailed copies of MNN articles posted at the website.
Both governments, of the U.S. and Canada, are very, very criminal, nationally as well as internationally; just that the Cdn government is junior league compared to the U.S. government in terms of both population and military capabilities, etcetera. They're both colonialist, imperialist, aristocratic, oligarchic, ... anti-democracy, and so on.
Yes, Canada, the federal government, is anti-democratic. If you question whether that's true or not, then carefully consider the deliberate and criminal participation of the Cdn government in sending its military forces to participate in the act-of-war coup d'etat against Haitians [democratically], strongly democratically, elected government and President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, who still remains the rightful President of the Haitian government. This foreign-committed coup d'etat against this democratically elected government and its large majority of voters is and remains an [act of war].
Nothing obliged the Cdn government to do that, and the same is true with respect the criminal participation in the war of aggression in Kosovo, against Yugoslavia and Serbia in 1999, either. The latter is a case about which I've found some local Cdns who believe that the war in Afghanistan is wrong, criminal, to not be aware of the fact that the Cdn government's role in that war of aggression in 1999 was indeed criminal.
Some Cdns believe that the government sent its forces there truly for the purpose of only providing humanitarian aide, but like I explain to them, even if humanitarian aide is all the Cdn military forces did or were meant to do there, then it nevertheless was in obvious support of the USA's (Bill Clinton-et-al's) criminal war of aggression. Once I say that, then these Cdns apparently agree; finally agreeing that Ca's participation was indeed wrong, unjustifiable, illegitimate, etcetera.
Cdns are choosie, as you described. Not all Cdns, of course, but still too many. The same is true in the U.S., but given the far larger population in the U.S., we need to understand that there'll be far more Americans who'll act in rogue, say, ways than there are Cdns. 300mn or so in the U.S., vs around 33mn in Ca, for total populations; it doesn't take long before more Americans are of a view or position than there are for total population in Ca.
"colleen May 31st, 2009 12:59 am
"We can safely assume that Muslims are raising their children to find a way to stop us."
Some and probably most Muslims are just like us and don't want war. To me it seems like there is this minority of about 30% or so that exists in all these groups and is willing to go to war. The rest seem cowed by the ones who are violent. Most people seem interested in protecting themselves and their loved ones.."
RE. "We can safely assume ...", whoever posted this; it is [garbage], another asinine, bigotted, ... p.o.v. that doesn't even merit being called a p.o.v.
Re. colleen's response, quoted above:
Probably, or surely, [most] Muslims, I believe; instead of only "some". And I don't know what proportion of Muslims (and other groups, as colleen refers to them, or infers) are for violent actions, but the Muslims who are usually, if not always, are for the purpose of [defence] and not aggression. Those of them who commit acts of terrorism do [not] do this for sadistic pleasure, but to have [real] grievances that are due to real injustices perpetrated by hegemonic, hypocritical, rogue, ... governments, like that of the USA, justly addressed; seeking justice, reparations, corrections where or how ever they indeed are due. These Muslims who are angered by the U.S. government's and therefore ruling elite's corrupt, rogue use of their governments are not wrong to be very angry. Their anger is reality-based; not out of some imagined notions of reality. Etcetera.
Whether or not they constitute 30% of Islam is something I don't know, but 30% seems very high for the Muslims who are actively reactionary, say. After all, Islam consists of how many people? I think it's around one [billion]. And I doubt that 30% of 1bn Muslims are actively reactionary, in what many or most people consider to be violent terms or ways. Many are certainly against the rogue criminality of the powerful governments, but I doubt that 30% of all of Islam is violently reactionary. And that's all they are when they do act in what most or many people consider to be violent ways; [reactionary], reacting, not aggressive or aggressing.
An old saying is, although I'm paraphrasing it a little, "don't (or stop) stop fueling the fire (or flames)", inherently meaning the fires people complain about and claim to want to be extinguised. We, our governments and corporations, and supporting members of the general public, need to stop fueling the reactionary anger of Muslims who are serious about reacting.
The KLA, Kosovo "Liberation" Army, however; now they are a starkly different bunch of Muslims, and true Muslims they definitely are not. They are rogue, extremely criminal, international traffickers of heroin, psychopathic murderers, ... and, "low and behold", instrumental to the U.S. government and its real ruling "elites". See John Pilger, who has his own website, plus videos at Youtube, etcetera; although I am not sure if there are any available for free online for his reports on the Balkans and the 1999 war on Kosovo, etcetera. See also Scott Taylor, a former Canadian Army soldier, who started his military magazine, www.espritdecorps.ca , in I think 1987 or 1988 and who did some real investigative reporting on the Balkans and the 1999 war against the Kosovar government, Yugoslavia and, thereby, Serbia.
There are other good resource people on this latter topic too, and www.globalresearch.ca is one website, among others, that has good articles on this latter war of aggression of the USA in 1999.
Anyway, the KLA are far from representative of Islam; [far] from being that.
Sudan, the Darfur region? The conflicts, violence there is [not] due to the Sudanese government or its President. GlobalResearch also has good articles on this, Keith Harmon Snow ( www.allthingspass.com, which is his website, while having articles at GlobalResearch and DissidentVoice, f.e. ) is another resource person, one who's also an investigative reporter and analyst. Etcetera.
The Muslims who aren't of reactionary violence don't necessarily cow with respect to those who are reactionary in ... active ways, say. But I won't elaborate; wanting to make this my last post for this CD page and am running out of the 1,000-word space limit.
Mike
A Canadian told me there had been no conscription but my son looked it up
"Canadians had drafts in WWI and WWII, but few were actually drafted." (son quote)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Service_Act_(Canada)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_Crisis_of_1917
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_Crisis_of_1944
I pick the number 30% because that is the approximate number that voted for Hitler in Germany...but it does appear to me that it is a minority that will actually go to war...
"but I doubt that 30% of all of Islam is violently reactionary."(Mike quote)
I agree..and I think the Muslim religion has in the Koran sections that would condemn the killing of innocent people. The Taliban is a group that is not following the Koran. Just as imo some of the "Christian" groups are not following Christ's teachings.
Imo the focus should be on human rights..and there will be many disagreements even with that.
Thank you for your reply...I read it all : )
I think there may be an effort to keep Americans and Canadians separate..at least separate at the individual level...and yet not to stop tourists...