'He also repeated his demand for Tibet's "legitimate and meaningful autonomy".'

What does this mean exactly? Hispanics don't have 'autonomy' in the US, Blacks don't either. Native American tribes have very little amounts of autonomy.

I think that he was demanding independence from China and then alignment with the US Empire. Why should we in the US support that?

As much respect as I have for the Dalai Lama, the "hell on Earth" statement is stooping to hyperbole. The man needs to spend time in the Middle East, in particular Gaza, southern Lebanon and Iraq, to understand hardship.

Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins - Native American proverb.

It's very telling how the PROC government always dismisses anything the Dalai Lama says as coming from the "Dalai Clique". Much like the use of the word "liberal" by right-wingers in the US, this is a cue that whatever follows is a propaganda point.

The Tibetans are going through what many indigenous American tribes went through during the late 1800s and early 1900s, having their language, religion and culture systematically destroyed to further the PROC aim of homogenization of the territories under its control.

Chinese propoganda is based on the absurd. The struggle for Tibet will go on for a hundred years if need be but will never die. If the Chinese become a tad more 'civilized', they may finally begin to respect the rights of individuals.

rfloh's rather simplistic formula has me supposedly stating... 'Right.Progressivism: US / West == evil. Anyone against US / West == good.'

Trying to tear off 1/4 of the territory of the world's most populous nation and align it with the US doesn't seem to be a good program to support, rfloh. You think that it is? Why?

It seems like a US effort to tear off access to natural resources away from the Chinese more than anything. I think that perhaps it is you that should be labeled the 'Right Wing Progressive' here, and not me.

'The right to self determination' has become more and more a Western code word for supporting the 'right' for the US Empire's imperialist intervention to have success. Here it is used by you to support splitting 1/4 of the territory away from 1 1/2 billion people for a US allied clique to then govern about 5 million people. What about the Chinese people's right to self determination? Didn't even think about that, now did you, rfloh?

'Why does someone in Shanghai, or Beijing, or Guangdong, have a right to "self determination" about Tibet and Tibetans, or Taiwan and Taiwanese? And yes, I said TAIWAN. NOT "Chinese Taipei".'

Because both Taiwan and Tibet are part of Chinese national territory, that's why. The Chinese have the same right to self determination about their own territory as the US or the United Kingdom do.

You and riddimboy simply want to give that right away to the rest of the world, I see.... and both from your vantage points in the US of A. You simply both think that what the good liberals in the US Empire decide is what goes down, and justify all that in the supposed name of 'self determination', too, which really takes the cake!

Who appointed either one of you to the Empire's Supreme Court one might want to know?

1) My sense is that the Dalai Lama's words are without fail preceded by much contemplation and are always purposeful.

2) China is a totalitarian state. This is what such states do as a matter of course. Within commonsense limits one can rightly compare China with the Nazi Regime and Stalinist Russia. Oppression, destruction, and handling reality through "George-Orwell-esque" twisting of truth --- these are simply par-for-the-course. The behavior of such states is quite predictable as the essential mold is the same.

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(From Wikipedia on Orwell's description of "Newspeak," the language of Oceania:

"Though Nineteen Eighty-Four is most famous for the Party's pervasive surveillance of everyday life, reality control means that the population of Oceania — all of it, including the ruling élite — could be controlled and manipulated merely through the alteration of everyday thought and language....

"Newspeak incorporated doublethink, as it contains many words that create assumed associations, between contradictory meanings, especially true of fundamentally important words, such as good and evil; right and wrong; truth and falsehood; justice and injustice...

"In the case of workers at the Records Department in the Ministry of Truth, doublethink means being able to falsify public records, and then believe in the new history that they, themselves, had just written...the Ministry's name is itself an example of doublethink: the Ministry of Truth is really concerned with lies.")

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3) Empires, by definition, do this. The United States has virtually demolished the Native American people --- even though They Were Here First!

4) The ability to feel shame is a first step in dealing with shameless beahvior.

'China is a totalitarian state. This is what such states do as a matter of course. Within commonsense limits one can rightly compare China with the Nazi Regime and Stalinist Russia.'

This is an incredible leap of unrealistic nonsense. You are merely finding just another way to try to put China in an unfavorable light for all the liberal humanitarian US imperialist backers posting here, Maruti.

All you guys are just itching to save Tibet from the supposedly evil Chinese! It's just another updated version of the Imperial duty logic that the British used so often to justify their own Empire. They were fighting brutal savagery, too (at least in their own heads.

De nial - Not just a river in Egypt...

Shameless behevior is caused by a condition known as "toxic shame." It is almost always invisible to the person who is caught up in this condition. Such a person inevitably is involved in shaming, demeaning, or destroying others - and/or self.

From Wikipedia on Orwell's 1984:

Doublethink is a form of trained, willful intellectual blindness to contradictions in a belief system. Doublethink differs from ordinary hypocrisy in that the "doublethinking" person deliberately had to forget the contradiction between his two opposing beliefs — and then deliberately forget that he had forgotten the contradiction. He then had to forget the forgetting of the forgetting, and so on; this intentional forgetting, once begun, continues indefinitely. In the novel's notes, Orwell describes it as "controlled insanity".

...Moreover, doublethink's self-deception allows the Party to maintain huge goals and realistic expectations: If one is to rule, and to continue ruling, one must be able to dislocate the sense of reality. For the secret of rulership is to combine a belief in one's own infallibility with the power to learn from past mistakes.

Newspeak words ---

Equal: Only in the sense of physically equal, like equal height/size, etc. It does not mean politically equal, since there is no such concept in Ingsoc.

Free: Meaning Negative freedom (without) in a physical sense, only in statements like "This dog is free from lice", as the concepts of "political freedom" and "intellectual freedom" do not exist in Newspeak.

Rectify: Used by the Ministry of Truth as a euphemism for the deliberate alteration of the past.

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The ability to blindly believe anything, regardless of its absurdity, can have different causes: respect for authority, fear, indoctrination, even critical laziness or gullibility. Orwell's blackwhite refers only to that caused by fear, indoctrination, or repression of one's individual critical thinking ("to know black is white"), rather than caused by laziness or gullibility. A true Party member could automatically, and without thought, expunge any "incorrect" information and totally replace it with "true" information from the Party. If properly done, there is no memory or recovery of the "incorrect" information that could cause unhappiness to the Party member by committing thoughtcrime.

Look, the three of you who want us, liberals and Leftists included, to label China as being some giant evil entity that must be battled by the do-good US Empire led by our supposedly enlightened Western public opinion here. And now you want me to defend the Chinese government as being some group of saints. Well they aren't and I'm not going to pretend that they are.

However... these campaigns for humanitarian interventionism in the US and Western Europe always base themselves on false foundations and assumptions, whether they be calls to intervene against Yugoslavia, against Iraq, against Afghanistan, against Somalia, against Sudan, or against China. And they always ignore totally the greater geopolitical battlefields that the Pentagon and its propagandists are maneuvering their chess pieces across. That's what you want us all to stay blind and silent about. Fool us once, fool us twice, fool us again and again and again?, and we're just plain fools then.

Toxic shame can be thought of as a form of "soul murder." As a way of thinking, feeling, and being, it is intimately related to having cognitive blindspots. Such a person or (country) seeks to avoid "exposure" - especially to oneself. ("What are you talking about?? I am proud, not ashamed!")

Avoiding even considering the possibility that one has been infected with this kind of soul destroying shame (usually beginning early in life) is the usual state of affairs. For, a fearless, truthful awareness would reveal that, in fact, one is doing shameful things --- and this is exactly the original pain the person believes they can not tolerate, and in many cases simply refuses to tolerate. One seeks to dodge the simple reality of "what is" at all costs.

Healthy shame keeps us aware of our humanity - with all the fallibility and limitations that are the human condition. Toxic shame always involves some mixture of trying to be more than human (unwilling to consider that one may be wrong, for example) and less than human (one reduces themselves to a clone or otherwise degrades their own being and integrity, e.g., through buying into self-deception).

Toxic shame proudly violates both self and other --- often in the same way that the person themselves was originally violated.

And let us not forget, the American Empire has still, even centuries later, refused to come to terms with (let alone, express remorse for) its being built on the backs of African-American slaves, and blatently stolen from the indigenous, Native American people.

Empires routinely dismiss and violate indigenous peoples. That's the way of empire and it has been so for at least 5,000 years.

For more on the "pattern of empire," Andrew Schmookler's book Parable of the Tribes, is a valuable and engaging source of information.

Boy you guys ( and women?) are really going at it.

I must disclose I am a USA citizen who has taken Tibetan Buddhist lay vows.

I have twelve maps in front of me the earliest a Dutch map from 1680.

Tibet has been delineated on a large majority of these maps as a nation separate from China.

Tibet was invaded in the late 1940's by China.

Of course no one should even think of using force to restore Tibet to its former independent status.

China bases it's ownership on the fact that a Tibetan King way back when took a Nepalese, Indian and Chinese princess as wives in order to consolidate the King's Tibetan Kingdom.

Yes, Tibet had a Golden Era of stability and spiritual enlightenment before Maoist China annexed them and destroyed thousands of Ashrams and temples...
Folks here need to read Norm Solomon's article about the relationship between the Dalai Lama and the CIA, who armed the Tibetan resistance movement before it failed and His Holiness was helicoptered out of there...
Don't get me wrong ... I love the Dalai Lama...
Folks here should be focusing on sovereign nations that the USA have colonized and annexed, like Puerto Rico, Hawaii, et al....
Instead of getting worked up over something that other nations have done....
It is shifty what the godless Maoists have done... But the flipside of that is revisionist Hollywood history where they expunge the Nazi from the Brad Pitt character in Seven Years in Tibet....

It is interesting to note the US support for the return of a theocratic monarchy to Tibet, where elsewhere in the world the US champions secular rule at the expense of theocracy (except here at home).

The US interest is not in Tibet. US foreign policy does not care about Tibetans. The US does have a profound interest in destabilizing China through the "divide and conquer" rule.

Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in their moccasins - Native American proverb.

"China says its troops freed Tibetans from effective slavery in a feudal society"

Few societies are evolved enough today to hand their governments a legitimate mandate to "free" another society from anything. The great majority of societies struggle to free themselves from their own governments hijacked by a cabal of global elites. When will the troops help free their own people from the cabal of elites?

It's incredible how so many want to support the 'right to self determination' of various peoples, yet haven't a clue to what they are actually talking about. For example, how many that have responded indignantly about China's control over Tibet have ever said a word on behalf of the Kurdish people or the people of Kashmir? Why is that? And there are hundreds if not thousands of other groups looking for 'self determination', too.

I think that the answer is quite simple and has to do with whether a campaign to supposedly respect 'self determination' is aligned with American and British foreign policy or not? It's just that simple to see where the REAL motivation comes from to get all indignant or not from our comfortable American or Western European homes?

"When the Chinese invaded Tibet, they killed countless peaceful monks and destroyed most of the monasteries. One Chinese General was especially known for his barbaric cruelty of disemboweling monks with his sword while they screamed for mercy. At one remote monastery, word came that this particular general and his band of soldiers were on their way. All the monks fled to the hills except one elderly monk who sat calmly in the main hall.

"When the general arrived and heard that one monk had not run in fear, he was enraged. He threw open the doors of the great hall, strode over to the small man and screamed, "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM??! WHY, I COULD TAKE MY SWORD AT THIS VERY MOMENT, PLUNGE IT INTO YOUR BELLY AND REMOVE YOUR ORGANS WITHOUT BATTING AN EYE!!"

"The elderly monk looked into the General's eyes and softly replied, "But do you know who I am? Why, I could allow you to take your sword at this very moment, plunge it into my belly and remove my organs, without batting an eye.

"The General meekly lowered his eyes, bowed, backed away, and ordered his troops to leave the monastery at once."
Bo Lozoff
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Funny how few mentions there have been on this thread regarding the violence inflicted by the Chinese Army in Tibet, which appears very much seems to be escalating.

But, hey, don't get me wrong, this could be a Huge amount of Fun!.....

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"For 46 Years the Genocide Continues

• 1.3M deaths from China’s occupation. (By 1996, 173,000 while in jail.)
• China’s Tibet genocide by population transfer continues in violation of the IV Geneva Convention.
• 6,200 Tibetan monasteries destroyed.
• Children (including 6 year olds, women, monks, and nuns jailed, tortured, killed for loyalty to the Dalai Lama).
• Systematic, intentional denial by China of Tibetan civil rights, education, employment.
• China’s railroad to Lhassa will complete the genocide as it has in Xinjiang, against the Uighurs and Inner Mongolia against Mongolians.

The disgusting abuse of monks and nuns has been going on since 1961. Atrocities are commonplace-crucifixion, vivisection, disemboweling, burning, beating to death, burning alive, dismemberment, hanging upside down, tearing out tongues, dragging to death behind horses, electric shock into orifices, especially womens’, rape."

Oh I forgot. None of this is really happening. It's all negative lies and propaganda to make China look bad, be seen in a negative light.

Well then, never mind....

My God, does anyone realize how much the world has lost already?

This reminds me of something culled from the Right Wing's Black Book of Communism, Maruti. In short, it is material mainly put on line from a pro-capitalist, pro-capitalist imperialist POV.

The US Empire is simply engaged in a fight against China and Russia for dwindling world resources, and up jump people like Maruti talking it up for 'self determination' of US allied cliques, not those same rights of self determination for China and Russia.

logansafi wrote:

"The US Empire is simply engaged in a fight against China and Russia for dwindling world resources, and up jump people like Maruti talking it up for 'self determination' of US allied cliques, not those same rights of self determination for China and Russia."

logansafi,

I think you are missing a point here. First, I agree with you that the U.S has been in a fight for dwindling world resources. And it has been a fight against anyone (superpower, would-be superpower, or smaller country) who might control access to precious resources [think Iraq]. In this regard I would venture a guess you are unaware of the specifics around Peak Oil. During the past 10 years, in particular, the struggle has gotten even more fierce.

Now, you wrote:

"and up jump people like Maruti talking it up for 'self determination' of US allied cliques, not those same rights of self determination for China and Russia."

I did not say or imply anything about this (unless you are implying that Native Americans qualify as a "US allied clique!"). Your mind made this up.

I did suggest that it is easy to speak in the abstract about geopolitics when the original point of the article was about suffering, about the Tibetan people being put through "hell."

Specifically, documentation that abuse of monks and nuns has been going on since 1961....that atrocities are commonplace-crucifixion, vivisection, disemboweling, burning, beating to death, burning alive, dismemberment, hanging upside down, tearing out tongues, dragging to death behind horses, electric shock into orifices, especially female rape.

Not to mention:

• 1.3M deaths from China’s occupation. (By 1996, 173,000 while in jail.)
• China’s Tibet genocide by population transfer continues in violation of the IV Geneva Convention.
• 6,200 Tibetan monasteries destroyed.
• Children (including 6 year olds, women, monks, and nuns jailed, tortured, killed for loyalty to the Dalai Lama).
• Systematic, intentional denial by China of Tibetan civil rights, education, employment.

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The U.S treatment of Native Americans can certainly be seen as genocidal behavior. Do you honestly think China is "better than that?"

If you think for one minute that I am somehow justifying and U.S. behavior and condemning China's you are dead wrong.

Of course, Russia/the USSR has certainly done its share of horrific stuff.

As I said in an earlier post, this stuff is simply what empires do...and always have done.

The reality is that any country with the means to do so - can do whatever it likes and call what they are doing - whatever they wish.

Do you buy that the situation in Dafur is not genocide, as the government firmly and self-righteously declares?

At the deepest level the issues go far beyond Tibet to a more profound question:

Will humanity choose Empire or Community as its fundamental paradigm for living together on Earth?