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Russian Advice on Afghanistan: More Troops Won't Help
MOSCOW - The old diplomat sighed as he recalled his years in Afghanistan, and then leaned forward and said in a booming voice that no escalation of troops would bring lasting peace.
As the Soviet ambassador to Afghanistan from 1979 to 1986, Fikryat Tabeyev saw the numbers rise to more than 100,000 troops without any possibility of victory against a growing insurgency.
Even with President Barack Obama's plan initially to send 17,000 more U.S. soldiers and Marines to that mountainous nation this year, the combined NATO-American force will be smaller than the Soviet contingent was. Moscow's failure to pacify Afghanistan, which broke the back of the Soviet Union, doesn't mean that the same fate awaits Obama's efforts, but ignoring a decade of experience there would be a mistake, former envoys and generals warn.
The Soviets rumbled into Afghanistan in 1979 to rescue a weak communist regime, a very different reason from the U.S.-led invasion of 2001, which sought to deny the 9-11 terrorists a haven. The seven years of war since the U.S. intervention, though, look familiar to the Russians.
Many challenges that bedeviled the Soviets confront the American operation today, the retired envoys and generals said. Among them are vicious tribal rivalries, a weak central government, radical Islamists, power-hungry warlords, incompetent or corrupt local military commanders, failing infrastructure and the complexity of fighting guerrilla groups. The former officials also cautioned that trying to bring democracy to Afghanistan, or anything resembling it, will be as fruitless as their attempts to install communism.
"You may elect a parliament, you may invite parliamentary delegations from Afghanistan to visit Europe, but it means nothing," said Boris Pastukhov, whose service as Soviet ambassador began in 1989, the year the Red Army withdrew. "The decisions by parliament cannot be compared with the decisions of a jirga," a tribal council.
Among the experts, there was gloating that the U.S. military is battling some of the same insurgents whom the CIA once funded to fight Moscow. All skated over the details of the brutal Soviet campaign to stomp out the Afghan resistance.
However, they also seemed to voice genuine concern about the U.S. troop buildup.
The Soviets also were convinced that superior numbers, firepower and training would make it possible to avoid the mistakes that the British and others had committed stretching back to Alexander the Great, former Ambassador Tabeyev said.
"History didn't listen to us," said Tabeyev, who's now 81. "All our efforts to restore peace in the country . . . this was a flop in the end."
The fundamental problem in Afghanistan is that it isn't a country in the way the West thinks of countries, said retired Lt. Gen. Ruslan Aushev, who did two tours there and left as a regimental commander.
"There has never been any real centralized state in Afghanistan. There is no such nation as Afghanistan," said Aushev, who's a former president of the Russian Caucasus republic of Ingushetia and now heads a veterans group in Moscow. "There are (ethnic groups of) Pashtuns, Uzbeks and Tajiks, and they all have different tribal policies."
As a result, any occupation force will spend much of its time propping up a government that has little relevance outside Kabul and trying to corral disparate ethnic groups and tribes into a national army that's often unwilling to fight, Aushev said.
"We made the same mistake when we put the weak Babrak Karmal as the head of state," Aushev said of a former Afghan president. "He was so weak that no one obeyed him. He was hiding behind the backs of Soviet soldiers. . . . Today the situation is the same; (Afghan President Hamid) Karzai is being protected by U.S. special forces."
Retired Gen. Pavel Grachev, who spent two tours in Afghanistan, including commanding an airborne division, had a tone somewhere between disbelief and shock when he discussed the news of Obama's troop buildup.
"I believed as sincerely as American officers do now that we were fighting there to help make our country safer," said Grachev, who later became defense minister and sent in Russian units to quell Chechnya during the 1990s, a campaign that also ended in disaster. "After the war, as a politician, I could see this war had been pointless."
That said, Grachev offered some advice: Post soldiers to guard road projects and irrigation systems, and send in an army of engineers, doctors, mining experts and construction advisers.
Pouring billions of dollars into infrastructure would be a lot more productive than firefights in far-flung villages, he said.
"You have to understand that in the economic sphere, Afghanistan is now at a stage lower than the Middle Ages," Grachev said.
Unlike Iraq, which has relatively large cities and highways, much of the Afghan population is dispersed across small villages of mud houses connected by dirt paths and crumbling roads. In many regions, there are no jobs other than tending poppy fields. Health care and education levels are among the worst in the world.
That, Grachev said, is a commander's nightmare; it gives insurgents and terrorists a population that sees little reason to support the Kabul government or its Western backers. The hardened military man insisted that instead of bombs, "It is urgently necessary to create a comprehensive road network!"
Retired Gen. Viktor Yermakov agreed. He led the Soviet Union's 40th Army in Afghanistan during the early 1980s, and he said that his staff officers came to realize that they simply weren't going to win the war by military means.
"But unfortunately it was too late," Yermakov said, adding later that, "We had to answer fire. When we were attacked, we attacked with all of our might."
His soldiers were in a battlefield, caught in a cycle of attack and counterattack with an enemy that usually slipped away by the time the artillery shells rained down. There was no military solution, but he had a war to fight.
For the Americans, Yermakov said, it probably will become a familiar story.
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16 Comments so far
Show AllActually the soviets were winning in afghanistan and the taliban were retreating to pakistan. That is until the US supplied them with stinger manpads.
With all due respect to the good general, looks like he didn't do too well in Afganistan or Chechnya.
I woudl dispute your definition of 'winning'. If you read the article with greater care you would note the obvious reasons why there can be no military victory in that nation, or in Iraq , or in Pakistan for that matter.
With all due respect to you, the good general, Grachev, and the other generals quoted here, Aushev, Yermakov, and the ambassadors, agree that they didn't do too well in Afghanistan.
And with all due respect to you, they fought there.
Tom Lasseter is harboring a few delusions. Russia was actually trying to form a rather liberal government in Afghanistan, at least compared to some of the other 'puppet' governments in the region. It had the support of women's organizations and other liberal forces in the country. It's enemies were the warlords, backed by the United States. The United States should have kept its nose out of the situation. Those very warlords are now trying to take back the country and return it to barbarism, and they are using the very arms that we gave them to 'fight communism'. They are absolutely ruthless, and would put our lords of organized crime to shame. They are thugs who grow fat on the poppy trade, and will never give up control. The situation with the Taliban is more of a Pakistan/Arabia issue than an Afghanistan issue--always has been.
But Tom is right when he says we should get out of Afghanistan. It is an unwinable war. If there ever was a 'tar-patch' in the world, it is Afghanistan.
No one's listening. The fact of no reason for being in Afghanistan to begin with carries no weight. The fact of heroin being produced in massive amounts means nothing. No end goal is of no significance. Basically, how can war industries profit without a "war". That's the reason we're there...no other. That's the reason we'll NEVER leave Iraq, ever. In 100 years there will be US troops ensconced in the massive bases that Uber-Fuhrer Bush had built. The Vatican City sized "embassy" will stand as a monument to slave labor and the inside out nature of freedomizing countries by bringing tyranny to them in greater numbers than before we arrived. George Bush for instance, is demonstrably worse than Saddam ever was.
He's killed more Iraqi's than Saddam ever dreamed of. Even if you go by the ridiculously low estimates at Iraq Body Count, Bush, per annum, has the crown as Iraqi Butcher Extraordinaire. Saddam is reported to have "murdered" 300,000 of his people over his 21 year reign. Think ahead to the year 2024...the 21st year after the beginning of the Rape of Iraq. As of today at IBC, the innocent death toll stands at 99,433 (I'm using the high estimate, because BOTH the low and high are ridiculously conservative). Let's just say we're on the dot at 6 years. That provides a per annum butchers report of 16572. Multiply that times 21. That's 348,015...which exceeds the reported deaths by Saddam for the same period of time. And, this is the absolute rock bottom number.
I believe the numbers must now be approaching about 1.5 million in reality. That's 250,000 per annum. Take it out 21 years. 5.25 millon...or about 17.5 times the deaths caused by Saddam. And, with the coming years, and likelihood of more violence, these numbers may well rise way beyond these numbers. And these numbers probably make George Bush deeply proud of how effective a butcher he's been. I believe that if Christians can get forgiveness at the end of their lives, by asking for forgiveness and really believing in Jesus...that there must be one extra requirement...if you've been a murderer (like, say, Ted Bundy), you must recount the names of those you've butchered. Considering how GWB butchers the English language, and Muslim names, I think he ought to just cut to the chase and GO TO HELL!
Now tell us what you REALLY think! :-)
Thanks for putting into perspective. I agree.
Bring America Back !!!!President Eisenhower strongly warned us==once the Military-Industrial Complex gets out of control, rolling us into war after war, and it is an unfeeling, unthinking beast.
***The US military/industrial Beast did not listen to the advice of the French who warned us NOT to go into Vietnam !!!!
***The Beast did not listen when the UN, and all experts advised NOT to go into Iraq==a defenseless sovereign Nation.
***The Beast is not listening to Russia, refuses advice from most Americans, and continues its Trek into Afghan !!!!
*You see, the Young Prince we elected to stop this war has lost his way !!!
Barak Obama kept the same Neocon Sec of Defense, Gates, kept the same Generals on the ground, appointed a Sec of State Clinton who Voted FOR this War and its Trillion $$ funding====
***So how could Obama even possibly be getting fresh advice, new viewpoints,
Exit Strategies ???????? Right, he is not, and Russia's failure in Afghan does not seem to impress Obama !!!
Plus, he's getting some real sharp salutes from the Honor Guard at the White House, and the temptation to play soldier and Commander is just too great to say NO--get the troops the hell out !!!
**Therefore The Big Beast rolls on.and on.....and on.....
This is where genocide may be a necessary tactic, set up an area that we consider a country then declare an area around it a no-man's land; seed it with a radioactive material and kill anything that moves by any means available drones, artillary,snipers, paid mercenaries. lt is time to take the gloves off and make Hitler, Stalin, Alexander the Great, and Antilla The Hun look like girl scouts selling cookies or we could pull out and let the people who live there decide what kind of government they want then apologize to them and give them the aid they need to rebuild their country. We could also decriminalize heroin take the profit out of the drug lords and help the people who suffer this terrible addiction.
That said, Grachev offered some advice: Post soldiers to guard road projects and irrigation systems, and send in an army of engineers, doctors, mining experts and construction advisers.
Pouring billions of dollars into infrastructure would be a lot more productive than firefights in far-flung villages, he said.
=================
what? there was 'social system' reconstruction as well as roads being built during the Soviet Era. I'm really confused by this storyline. Is the author just finding sources that reinforce a bias?
Beside the failure of social engineering under the Soviets, the new counterinsurgent model the US MIL is employing is much like some of the formats the Soviets attempted at the village level.
Alas, do we not understand that the only thing the US will be able to offer is city-state form of government?
""You have to understand that in the economic sphere, Afghanistan is now at a stage lower than the Middle Ages," Grachev said.
Unlike Iraq, which has relatively large cities and highways, much of the Afghan population is dispersed across small villages of mud houses connected by dirt paths and crumbling roads. In many regions, there are no jobs other than tending poppy fields. Health care and education levels are among the worst in the world.
That, Grachev said, is a commander's nightmare; it gives insurgents and terrorists a population that sees little reason to support the Kabul government or its Western backers. The hardened military man insisted that instead of bombs, "It is urgently necessary to create a comprehensive road network!""
I understand Afghanistan isn't Iraq, and I read what Grachev said. what I am telling you is that the Soviets did do a considerable amount of nation building and roads and constrution of buildings --- and it didn't matter. Grachev isn't speaking completely about the efforts the Soviets made in trying to convert Afghanistan into a functional state.
That's what I am saying. Go a head a build roads and bridges and schools and banks and jails and this and that... in the end, all the US will have 5 years from now is a city-state.
100 million USans voted for continuity of "business as usual" back in Nov. 2008, ehh? Despite that they voted the lesser evil to promote healing the greater evil, it may have now advanced beyond healing, which is a good thing for the people and the planet.
What do US elites think about the resilience of the Afghani tribes, due to their strength through local/regional independence? US elites don't like it, but they aren't talking about it either, because US elites are in the Ghandian "ignore stage", that is, "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". US elites ignore local/regional independence as in the localism philosophy adopted by the far left progressive movement in the USA. Afghanis are illustrating one of the key benefits of localism - this ability to resist outside conquest. The USA controls only Kabul. So you can see that in a localist USA only the power centers are vulnerable to conquest. Everywhere else is safe.
the easily forgotten thing is the VIEW from the afghani standpoint.
it matters little -- the HOWS -- of invasion, of "assistance" , or "improvements for the good of the afghans" a foreign power does or says:
the AFGHANS have thousands of years of MEMORY that says it the way an afghan "cargo driver" said it about the USA and all others:
"THEY are here only because of their own self-interests".
in other words:
ALL foreigners came here because they were only trying to USE us for their advantage.
the afghanis are SMARTEr than the west gives them credit for.
It's a good article, but the author like most of the populace in the US, is operating from a flawed premise. The premise is that the U.S. wants to "win the war" (whatever that means) and wants to bring peace to the region. The "U.S." but more accurately the U.S. military contractors and their profiteers, don't necessarily see an end to the War in Afghanistan or anywhere else for that matter. These contractors (and their majority share holders no matter where they are--U.S. or elsewhere) make mega-profits from war. Obama is there is facilitate that while keeping up the hollow rhetoric of change.
It's not that the military commanders or other experts don't know (at least privately) what they are getting into. They are all too afraid to stand up to the machine they know will chew them and spit them out. They all know the lessons of history for the individual who dare stand up, and until we the masses can embolden them and support them, we will be embroiled in one war on another.
We want pipelines through the place. Pure and simple.
We'll do anything to get it because no fuel means no food.
Industrial agriculture and all.
Thank you.
russian are wiser after disgrace and defeat in afghanistan, an authentic advise for US to withdraw gracefully, and leave all this to the sons of the soil to manage it as per their demands, aspertions and tradations. belive me and take my word, that the moment foreign forces withdraw from afghanistan peace will prevail in the region including pakistan.