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A 'Police State' Celebrates
JERUSALEM - The Israeli government is stepping up efforts to suppress dissent and crush resistance in the streets. Police have been videotaping the demonstrations and subsequently arresting protesters in large numbers.
Israeli police officers arrest a Palestinian man during a protest against Israel's military operation in the Gaza Strip, outside Jerusalem's Old City, Friday, Jan. 16, 2009. (AP Photo/Atta Awisat) According to Israeli police reports, at least 763 Israeli citizens, the majority of them Palestinian and 244 under 18 years old, have been arrested, imprisoned or detained for participating in such demonstrations. Most have been held and then released, but at least 30 of those arrested over the past three weeks are still being held in prison.
Ameer Makhoul, director of Ittijah, the Union of Arab Community-Based Associations in Haifa, tells IPS that these demonstrations "are part of the uprising here inside the Green Line, to share responsibility and to share the challenge with the people in the Gaza strip."
As an organiser of many of these solidarity demonstrations inside Israel, Makhoul himself was arrested by the Shin Bet (the Israeli secret service). "They called me, came to my home and held me for four hours," he tells IPS. "They accused me of being a terrorist and supporting terror. They said that they are watching me and monitoring me." Israel, he said, "has become a terror state."
The Shin Bet has accused Makhoul and the hundreds of others arrested of "being a rebel, threatening the security of the State of Israel during war time."
Makhoul believes that such threats are being implemented by Israel's security forces "(in order to) break our will and the spirit of our people. But I think our spirit is much, much stronger here in Haifa and in Gaza than the Israeli oppression."
On Jan. 15, a Haaretz-Dialog public opinion poll taken in Israel found that 82 percent of the Israeli population believes that Israel did not go too far in its three-week operation in Gaza, "despite pictures from Gaza depicting massive destruction and a large number of wounded and killed, including women and children," reports Haaretz.
At a demonstration last week in front of Kishon prison north-east of Haifa, where some of the Palestinian demonstrators are being held, Israeli anarchist and professor of mathematics Kobi Snitz tells IPS that this figure is indicative of the current social climate inside the state.
"People are made to be afraid. Virtually all Israelis, particularly Israeli Jews, are convinced that Hamas was the one that violated the ceasefire. This just isn't true...(But) you won't find this in the Israeli media. There is no understanding of the level of violence used on Gaza by the Israeli military. And the police operate under the assumption and guidelines that every political expression now is to be repressed and prevented."
IPS asked Snitz to describe the momentum of these daily protests across the country. "These demonstrations happened virtually by themselves," he says. "At this point, anybody who is not severely indoctrinated or ignorant just feels compelled to do something every day. It's unbearable to sit at home and not do anything."
Last Saturday night in the coastal town of Jaffa, south of Tel Aviv, several thousand demonstrators - including Palestinians, various peace groups, Israeli anarchists and teenaged Israeli refusniks fresh from jail for refusing to serve in the mandatory military - marched through the main street in the old city with flags, banners, and vociferous determination to keep up the fight inside Israeli society against their government's lethal operations in Gaza. Israeli security forces, carrying weapons and video cameras, heavily flanked the protesters.
But activists say it is crucial to expand the discussion from this current struggle for Palestinians inside the Gaza strip outward into the larger context. "I'm here to take a stand for Gaza," Mahmood Jreri of the acclaimed Palestinian hip-hop group DAM, based in Lydd (east of Tel Aviv), tells IPS during the march.
"The main reason (I'm here) is to say that we are not part of what the Israeli government is doing. The Palestinian people are fighting for their freedom and fighting against the occupation. When Palestinians have their freedom, then there will be peace here."
- Posted in
81 Comments so far
Show AllFascism.
And now, let's wait for its supporters to come out of the woodwork...
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
Ted Markow,
Come on, this isn't fascism. This is about safety. Don't distort the actions of the police by exaggerating what they mean. This isn't a big deal.
The DNC and RNC did the same thing during there conventions.
Peaceful protesters aren't the problem. They aren't the ones being detained or questioned. Police have no problem with people exercising free speech.
It's people like the guy in the photo (who is clearly resisting arrest) and violent anarchists are the ones who cause these kinds of conflicts.
Take the recent Greek riots, are police just supposed to let a loud minority trash businesses, deface public art, and throw Molotov cocktails? Are the police supposed to d their job?
How is it different in Israel?
Only 30 people are being held in prison. That's 30 people out of tens of thousands of protesters, okay? There are some bad apples in every group. It's not a big deal.
Didn't Oakland just arrest 120 people because a BART protest turned violent. No one is saying Oakland has turned fascist.
You know, joe, maybe you're right. I mean, I did a search for protests and demonstrations in Israel, and all I could come up with is the original IPS piece. Maybe it never happened and this "isn't a big deal." Maybe there really are only protests all over the world against Israel, but not in Israel. Maybe this is all an illusion and none of this is happening and we should all be happy and smoke what you're smoking.
Or, maybe you're a fool and should be ignored.
Give me two seconds to decide which one to do...
Ted, come on. This isn't about mass arrests or the suppression of free speech. It's 30 people we're talking about.
Have you met them? Do you know what they're like? How do we know the police were wrong to arrest them?
Do you also bother to defend every American who gets arrested at a protest - regardless of why they were arrested?
I support the right of anyone to criticize Israel, but I'm sure even you would admit there are people who take it too far. Have you ever been to a protest where things get out of hand? At that point, you become very thankful that there are police there to ensure law and order.
However, if it can be proven in an Israeli court that anyone had their rights violated, then that needs to be taken care of. However, I just don't see that as being the case here.
This is making a mountain out of a molehill.
I have been to quite few protests here in the U,S. joehope and EVERY single time there is trouble it's the cops who started the rioting by doing things like shoving people to the ground, preemptively tear gassing them, telling them to leave and then leaving no exit, etc. I'm sure it's ten times worse in Israel where protestors are shot on a regular basis with live ammo rounds.
If you think this is some nicey, nice support the system and it's well armed goons "KOS" type web site you are in for some eye opening surprises Joe.
You have no idea what you are talking about, re the Greek riots.
What an insightful rebuttal...
"The DNC and RNC did the same thing during there conventions."
They did indeed and that was fascism as well when they preemptively raided activists houses and beat up reporters from Democracy Now trying to report the news:
"All three were violently manhandled by law enforcement officers. Abdel Kouddous was slammed against a wall and the ground, leaving his arms scraped and bloodied. He sustained other injuries to his chest and back. Salazar's violent arrest by baton-wielding officers, during which she was slammed to the ground while yelling, "I'm Press! Press!," resulted in her nose bleeding, as well as causing facial pain. Goodman's arm was violently yanked by police as she was arrested.
On Tuesday, Democracy Now! will broadcast video of these arrests, as well as the broader police action. These will also be available on: www.democracynow.org.
Goodman was arrested while questioning police about the unlawful detention of Kouddous and Salazar who were arrested while they carried out their journalistic duties in covering street demonstrations at the Republican National Convention. Goodman's crime appears to have been defending her colleagues and the freedom of the press."
http://www.alternet.org/rights/97194/amy_goodman_and_two_democracy_now!_producers_unlawfully_arrested_at_rnc/
Ron Paul supporters were forcibly ejected from the RNC for having buttons and signs, the range of opinion that is allowed to be expressed in the U.S. without a violent police or private security response is EXTREMELY narrow.
I doubt joehope will have a rebuttal...or anything meaningful other than platitudes.
I had thought of mentioning the raids in Minneapolis or the roundups of peaceful protesters in other areas, but thought better of it. joehope doesn't want to hear or think of things not pretty. He doesn't want to know of state-sponsored provocateurs (or, maybe he knows about them all too well), or of planned interruptions of citizen protests and gatherings. He believes that all violence is started by the people, never by the state.
I have a new name for joehope - Mother Goose. As in...fairy tales.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
Nobody says Oakland is turning fascist, people ARE saying the USA is, just like Israel. Have you entered or departed from the USA recently? Did all the weaponry and body armour not clue you in a little?
Do you remember Woodstock? ever heard of it?
Sophie Scholl-The Final Days
“People are made to be afraid. Virtually all Israelis, particularly Israeli Jews, are convinced that Hamas was the one that violated the ceasefire. This just isn't true...(But) you won't find this in the Israeli media”
Sounds just like the media in the good ol’ US of A. doesn’t it? But perhaps someone can tell me the plan? Can you tell me how killing a few hundred kids, in a growing population of millions, is going to help your, or Israel’s, situation?
Who cares about winning anything except the elections. Call it a "war", kill some Palestinian deprived civilians, women and children in a beseaged refugee compound, commit some war crimes, and that's how you make yourself popular with Israel's electorate?
The Bush - Obama (I won't do anything and I can't do anything duo...), transition celibration means party time for the IDF, and new weapons testing time for the joint US-Zionist MIC. How about that DIME right?
It is high time these kids had their toys taken away from them, don't you think? It's your money!!
If we could somehow get the Green left and pat Buchanan Ron Paul supporting true conservatives talking I suspect a movement could be formed that would get a majority of Americans to support cutting off Israel's money supply. Key people to get that ball rolling would likely be sites like this one and democracynow.org on the left antiwar.com and amconmag.com on the Libertarian/paleo-con right. Paul Craig Roberts who writes for both sides of the fence would be a good contact guy most likely. Anyone here know him and want to start a defund Israel movement?
Pat Buchanon, please...You must be quite a young person. He is a total racist and was a supporter of george wallace. Are you a big supporter of the border fence to keep out Mexican 'illegal aliens'?
Actually, Pat Buchanan has been quite vocal in support of the Palestinians and against the Israelis on this particular issue. Make of it what you will. In my humble opinion, it is pointless to tear down this poster. Even though the idea may seem like a bit of a stretch, he is only attempting to come up with a possible solution. Creative thinking is exactly what is needed here. The old left/right/"progressive" stereotypes do not cut it anymore.
It is very telling when traditionally disparate groups end up with the same position on an issue. To me it is a signal that change is becoming possible. As distressing and destructive as recent events have been, maybe the one positive thing is that people are finally waking up to Israel's true motives and methods and the plight of the Palestinian people (and not just the people on here - they were probably already aware of it).
The world needs to stand up for what is right and step up to the defense of the Palestinian people. That is the real issue here. It will take more than the people on commondreams to accomplish that... If anyone is speaking out and working towards that end I am all for it.
Maybe you have a practical suggestion for solving this that you would like to share...
Thanks for chiming in with support and it's really not even that big a stretch anymore, the right Libertarian antiwar.com publishes pieces by lefties like Amy Goodman all the time, and the left counterpunch regularly publishes pieces by former Reagan deputy Secretary of the Treasury Paul Craig Roberts, as has CD I believe. Getting out of the terrible fix of living in a dying empire that is lashing out in its death throes is going to take creative thinking on all out parts, including yes maybe those of us on the left dealing with a few Buchanan's and a few Buchanan's dealing a few Lesbian peace activists. IMO we MUST unite soon as a populist front against the war mongering disaster capitalists, or they will take the planet down in an endless fight for more resources and a "New World Order."
And yes to get back to the practical issue, HOW and WHO would like to do outreach to build a large coalition to defund Israel?
Google "anti imperialist league" to see how this left right coalition might look for a historical precedent.
Well, IamOne, i will try to take you up on that opening, thank you.
But first i must say that Pat Buchanon is suspect to me. He doesn't have a compassionate history. But that is not the important point for me right now.
How does the world stand up for what is right at this point? Many of us stood up in the sense of taking all of the usual actions for at the very least, the past eight years. I think we need to get more creative. And also as simplistic as it sounds, i think we need to look at certain actions, such as what happened in Gaza and say, "its not acceptable" under any circumstances.
But this would need to happen on a more massive scale. More people need to begin to give a damn. And many don't really care that much. That is the bottom line. They may never have that much empathy and compassion. And this may be the majority of humanity. How many americans care about what our 'heroes' did and continue to do in Iraq?
How to make a person into someone who is even interested in what goes on in other parts of the world, other than merely not wanting to be harmed by them? That may be an underlying question...
But i think there is a critical mass of humans who do care. So, we need to start to question the present myths that go the deepest. I personally think that one of them is the belief that human nature is flawed and we can't do any better because we are killers at heart and we need to be destructive in order to survive. That would seem oxymoronic. I think that in a infinite system there is always a creative solution or solutions. We need to breakthrough the closed systems that frame our experiences and histories. It seems we are living within a very restricted perspective, on the whole, which hasn't evolved in very essential ways, over many centuries of time.
I think this goes deeper than what it appears to be, actually. What is going on with Israel is actually just a very direct and poignant example. And by the way, i find the paralls to the way the u.s. govt and media handled the war in Iraq to be very overt and worrisome but not surprising. Victimhood and victimizer has got to become obsolete as a way of framing most all of human discourse on all levels. There are infinitely other ways to understand ourselves. Other angles and vantage points that hold possiblilities for resolving our conflicts, both inner and outer-- they are intricately connoected.
Blah, blah, I offered a practical idea and you shot it down do you have a practical counter suggestion?
hootowl, i wasn't criticizing your whole philosophy, i just made a pat buchanon remark. I do think that where someone is coming from makes a difference. For example, obama was against the iraq war because it wasn't pragmatic, but makes a point that he is for war as a viable way to go.
I think that will not get major changes in the long run. People say, about vietnam very often, we just didn't do it all the way, full on. We should have been more committed, etc. Again, a view of how the war is handled as opposed to the morality of it. They never learn the deeper lessons.
Under these considerations, it is really hard for me to go with generalized labels. Like christian or jewish, democrat, green, etc. I personally think that caring, creative people who truly realize that a profound transformation is needed in the way we relate to each other and the planet are needed and really soon. I have met quite a few libertarians that do not resonate with my own, admittedly, Amy Goodmanesque perspective on many things.
I never believed in democrats as any kind of change agency, etc. I think humanism and creativity combined is key. Or else, from my perspective, history is gonna just keep repeating. It is predictable. I personally don't label myself except maybe as a spiritual/humanist and probably an anarchist in the original sense of the world. But i do think that politics is really a reflection of what goes on inside of people. To change the outside, you have to work inside. But maybe it is because that is also how i work. Besides from what most all of us here do and have been doing in our activism.
I respect your commitment to creating solutions.
Thanks for chiming in with support and it's really not even that big a stretch anymore, the right Libertarian antiwar.com publishes pieces by lefties like Amy Goodman all the time, and the left counterpunch regularly publishes pieces by former Reagan deputy Secretary of the Treasury Paul Craig Roberts, as has CD I believe. Getting out of the terrible fix of living in a dying empire that is lashing out in its death throes is going to take creative thinking on all out parts, including yes maybe those of us on the left dealing with a few Buchanan's and a few Buchanan's dealing a few Lesbian peace activists. IMO we MUST unite soon as a populist front against the war mongering disaster capitalists, or they will take the planet down in an endless fight for more resources and a "New World Order."
And yes to get back to the practical issue, HOW and WHO would like to do outreach to build a large coalition to defund Israel?
Google "anti imperialist league" to see how this left right coalition might look for a historical precedent.
I am 42 and I have been engaged in direct action left activism for 20 years, does that make me "young," you tell me?
I do not agree with Buchanan's border policy, or his religious or economic views, OTOH he has done FAR more than any Dimocrap other than Kucinich to oppose American imperial wars of aggression, corporate globalization, and the police state at home. Before you smear someone you ought to read his American Conservative:
http://www.amconmag.com/
with an open mind. This issue for example is dedicated to a strong critique of Israel's war mongering, he has had entire issues dedicated to "slow food," in the past and articles by people like William Kauffman comparing similarities between old SDS though thought and recent paleo-conservative thought:
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/may/19/00009/
I personally think that those of us on the anti authoritarian left in some ways have better friends in Russell Kirk reading paleo-cons,
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/may/19/00009/
than in the Dimocrapic party with its AIPAC paid off war mongers and corporate banksters. "Left" thinkers like Wendell Berry, Kirkpatrick Sale, and Jeremy Rifikin DO share concerns with paleo-cons about just where the elite globalist class is taking us:
"For starters, the subject was an unusual one for a Washington show: the future. Not the future of the new Republican-led Congress or of welfare reform or of Bill Clinton's political career, but the future in general. The guests were Jeremy Rifkin, the well-known antitechnology activist, and Ed Cornish, the president of the World Future Society. Rifkin sat on the left, aligned with Michael Kinsley; Cornish on the right, aligned with Pat Buchanan.
Or at least that was how the producers planned it. That was how conventional politics prescribed it. Rifkin, the former antiwar protester and darling of environmentalists, clearly belongs to the left. Cornish, a technophile, becomes a right-winger by default. And hosts Kinsley and Buchanan were, of course, hired for their political positions.
But as soon as the discussion began, the entire format broke down. Buchanan and Rifkin turned out to be soulmates. Rifkin answered Buchanan's opening question with a fearful description of "this new global high-tech economy" as a cruel destroyer of jobs. "You sound like a Pat Buchanan column," replied his interrogator. "I agree."
Both men were deeply pessimistic about the future, upset about changes in the world of work, and desperate to find government policies to restore the good old days. Both spoke resentfully of the "knowledge sector." Neither had anything good to say about new technologies. Neither could imagine how ordinary people could possibly cope with economic changes. "There are many, many Americans who are not equipped to do this kind of work. They're the ones losing their jobs," said Buchanan. Responded Rifkin: "Let me say I find myself in a position of agreeing with Pat once again, which gives me alarm, but I really do agree with you on this one."
http://www.dynamist.com/tfaie/index-excerptB.html
As A Green decentralist anti authoritarian in many ways the paleo-con vision of tight communities of local New England style town meetings is more appealing than the Democraps more war in Afghanistan, national service with the possibility of a draft, bankster bailouts, etc.
Further if society should break down frankly I think the paleo-cons and Libertarians would fight at the side of hard leftists while the Dimocrpas would sic Blackwater troops and German Shepards on us.
IMO with society on the verge of ecological and economic collapse it really does behove to think long and hard about who our true friends are. I personally refused to be corralled by simplistic labels like left and right and chose my allies based on their personal integrity and respect for human decency, and yourself?
Although my home is on the Chomsky reading Amy Goodman listening hard left I think we are going to need many different sorts of friends to throw off the chains of empire and to revitalize our communities towards, farmers markets, CSAs, co-ops, and a more locally oriented frame of mind.
I also think getting back to the original subject that the Green activist left allied with paleo-con and Libertarians might be able to fight and win the 3 billion per year tax payer money sent to Israel to brutally slaughter Palestinians, wouldn't it be nice to win one for a change by doing outreach?
jlocke123,
Is Patrick Cockburn now a a big time shill for Israel? No, he just doesn't propagate the lies that you do.
"Hamas declared a week-long ceasefire in Gaza yesterday within hours of the truce unilaterally announced by Israel coming into effect.
The Hamas declaration, 22 days after Israel's military offensive began, put the ball back in Israel's court after its ceasefire was first met by the firing of 17 rockets from Gaza into Israel."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-ceasefire-brings-uneasy-peace-to-gaza-1419288.html
Hamas broke this ceasefire, just like they have broken all the others.
"On Jan. 15, a Haaretz-Dialog public opinion poll taken in Israel found that 82 percent of the Israeli population believes that Israel did not go too far in its three-week operation in Gaza, "despite pictures from Gaza depicting massive destruction and a large number of wounded and killed, including women and children," reports Haaretz."
**and why is that? Because they only care about their own, care NOTHING for anyone else-and actually get outraged when someone suggests they should believe in equal rights. "How absurd--we are the chosen people of the one true god!
Its your tough luck that you dont hail from a little piece of desert because that's what God cares about, everything else is surplus creation."
Hurting Israelis economically is the only way to go.
It is being way to kind-even delusional, to assume this is simply about the Israeli media hiding the truth. Israelis know the truth. But too many of them are fiercely ethnocentric. This is the root of the problem and Zionism.
People just dont want to admit it. Your average Israeli and pro Israel supporter is mentally ill.
"To be humane is to be cruel, vicious and unrestrained, like humans.
To be inhumane is to be compassionate, restrained, moderate, like non humans."
"When the invasion began in October 2001, polls indicated that about 88% of Americans and about 65% of Britons backed military action in Afghanistan"
http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.22819/pub_detail.asp
Ever think that, maybe, just maybe, people don't like their country being attacked by terrorists?
When you say "terrorists", are you referring to the Americans or the British?
Seventhson,
Who attacked us on 911?
I call them terrorists. Is Bin Laden a "freedom fighter" to you?
I assume you think that when Hamas trains small children to become "martyrs", they are actually becoming "freedom fighters" in your opinion.
"I will eat the Jews"
- Hamas rabbit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm8w7_P8wZ0&feature=related
Joe,
Truth be told, I actually don't really like the word "freedom fighter" at all - whether it's used to describe an Israeli, a Palestinian, an American, a French, or anyone else. It's a kitschy, smarmy word meant to tug at the heart strings, evoke a patriotic emotional response, and divert attention away from the fact that this person is little more than a professional killer. And it's rife with semantic hypocrisy. Like George Carlin pointed out, "If fire fighters fight fire and crime fighters fight crime, what exactly do freedom fighters fight?"
I don't deny there are atrocities being encouraged and committed by Palestinians. They pale in comparison to those committed by Israel, though. I still stand by the notion that Israel is ultimately to blame for this whole thing. You have, in past posts, used the "defending their homeland" argument to defend Israel's actions. Seeing as how Israel was a created state forced upon an already-existing people (the Palestinians) back in 1947-8, I dare say that argument would more accurately apply to the Palestinians than the Israelis.
Now . . . as for your FIRST question . . . I don't know who attacked the US sites on September 11, 2001. And your question is exactly the question I would ask too - who DID attack us on 9/11. I DO know the official story is riddled with inconsistencies, half truths, and blatant lies, the official Commission Report was a pathetic whitewash, and there are many people making a lot of money off of the warfare that has resulted. I would love for you to show me one SHRED of evidence that bin Laden had anything to do with those attacks. The FBI's own website (www.fbi.gov) does not even list anything at all about 9/11 on bin Laden's Most Wanted page - and that is because there IS no evidence against him . . . there is merely a story that was sold to the American public. There are many reasons to question the official 9/11 story and ask that most relevant of Latin questions: "Qui bono?" ("To whose benefit?").
Blessings,
John
"You must unlearn what you have learned" - Jedi Master Yoda
"Truth be told, I actually don't really like the word "freedom fighter"
It is over-used. But in some cases I do think it is possible to fight for freedom such as WWII and the Civil War.
"I don't deny there are atrocities being encouraged and committed by Palestinians. They pale in comparison to those committed by Israel"
Look I don't deny that Israel has killed more people in this conflict. I can't deny that. But that is only one way the look at it. Hamas is like the guy at the bar who wants to pick a fight with someone much bigger. What can Israel do? How long should Israel ignore Hamas's rockets and suicide bombers? How long til the next Intifada? There's a saying that goes “if the Arabs laid down their arms, there would be no conflict; if the Israelis laid down their arms, there would be no Israel.”
"Seeing as how Israel was a created state forced upon an already-existing people (the Palestinians) back in 1947-8,"
The history is more complicated than that. I recommend reading "The Case for Israel" by Alan Dershowitz or To Life: A Celebration of Jewish Being and Thinking or by Harold S. Kushner.
"I don't know who attacked the US sites on September 11, 2001"
I don't know the details of the FBI's case against him (perhaps they ceased building one when we invaded Afghanistan) but I have heard several audiotapes, and seen several videotapes where he openly admits to planning the attacks. Also there is the entire 911 Commission report where they interviewed over 1,200 people in 10 countries and reviewed over two and a half million pages of documents, including some closely-guarded classified national security documents. Even Noam Chomsky accepts the official story.
www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf
Are you talking about the fake tapes of Bin Laden cobbled together from old footage or manufactured using actors such as the "fat Bin Laden"?? These are produced by the CIA and their assets. How about the tape produced by a CIA vendor from old footage in which the vendor inadvertently neglected to remove their logo from the tape?? 911 was surely an inside job.
P.S. If we are talking about the dictionary definition of "terrorist", the United States fits the bill better than anyone. That was the whole point of my smart aleck comment.
Iraq is a mess. It's horrible. Thousands of people have died. But even though I think Bush is a vile a disgusting pig, I don't think he wanted to "terrorize" Iraq. I really don't know what he was thinking. Maybe he honestly felt Saddam was a threat. I just don't know.
Hamas, however, will openly admit that their rockets attacks are meant to inflict psychological terror against ordinary Israeli citizens - even Israeli Muslims.
If Mr. Bin Laden attacked the USA on 9/11, why isn't he wanted for that crime?
The crime of killing people in the WTC is not listed, why is that?
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
Because the FBI does not have evidence that Mr. Bin Laden was involved. Yet, people continue to believe that al-quada and Bin Laden attacked the USA.
Yes, I was surprised at the implication.
I always heard they were mostly Saudis an Egyptian, Yemeni, Lebanese, and one from the United Arab Emirates. Looks like we got a lot more countries to waste.
___________________________________________
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and then misapplying the wrong remedies. " Groucho Marx
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
H. L. Mencken
This is exactly the behavior to expect from a Terrorist State and proves the sham called democracy in the Zioinist State. The Zionist State Apparat is the one true enemy of ALL Palestinians--Everyone, jews included--and must vanish from the face of time, being replaced by ONE Palestine, which would also erase the artificial Trans-Jordan autocracy.
"Wipe Israel from the map", "push them into the sea", yeah, I've heard those before.
Since you are Pro-Hamas I assume you've also heard this one.
"Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day. America will be of no avail to them. Their generals will be of no avail to them. The last of their generals has been forgotten. Allah has made him disappear. He's over. Gone is that Sharon behind whose back they would hide and find shelter, and with whom they would feel relatively secure. Today they have frail leaders, who don't even know where our Lord placed them.
"Allah willing, we will make them lose their eyesight, we will make them lose their brains."
Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006
Israel has already humiliated themselves by thumping their chest after killing 1300+ people, mostly civilians. Israel humiliated themselves when they got their collective arse handed to them after being thrown out of southern lebenon in 2006. It has lost is moral compass and it has showed to the world that they are nothing but the 221st century nazis. And you will hopelessly remain a terrorist supporting buffoon!!
Israel has no state religion. Get your facts right.
So, by your standards, Israel isn't a democracy because they arrest 30 protesters during a state of emergency.
However, by your standards, this means that there are no democracies at all. Because (I hate to break it to you) every democracy in the world has riot control police who will sometimes have to arrest out-of-control protesters. Even in the USA.
Israel is a JEW first country that is theology based on Judaism. You get YOUR own facts right you stupid buffoon.
Israel does a have a state religion and marriage law laws that are very specifically based on the criteria of Jewsih faith:
"Marriage Ban Closes the Gates to Palestinians
By JONATHAN COOK
In approving an effective ban on marriages between Israelis and Palestinians this week, Israel's Supreme Court has shut tighter the gates of the Jewish fortress the state of Israel is rapidly becoming. The judges' decision, in the words of the country's normally restrained Haaretz daily, was "shameful".
By a wafer-thin majority, the highest court in the land ruled that an amendment passed in 2003 to the Nationality Law barring Palestinians from living with an Israeli spouse inside Israel -- what in legal parlance is termed "family unification" -- did not violate rights enshrined in the country's Basic Laws."
http://www.counterpunch.org/cook05192006.html
You really don't know much about the country you choose to defend which is called the "Jewish state" do you JoeHope?
Isn't that law in effect essentially to bar Palestinians from entering Israel?
Can't people of Palestinian decent who are Israeli citizens still marry Jews?
I don't see how the marriage laws are biased towards Judaism.
Many Arab states like Saudi Arabia do not allow Israelis to enter their country.
But tell me, if Israel has a "state religion", why are Muslims 16.2% of the population?
That is a stupid question as Iran is a Muslim state with a decent population of Jews and Christians....you are starting to grasp at straws.
Check out the marriage and divorce laws.
Joe
just like the fascist american government the israeli police state has realized that there is only one option with truth speakers: kill them or imprison them
i give credit to all those in israel with the courage to stand up and speak out, including the anti-fascist jews
the parallels between the us and israel are mind numbing
we see now - now that the american public is beginning to get its mind around the fascism that has permeated their country - now that they understand the militarization of most aspects of life in their imperium - they are beginning to comprehend the price of empire
not only does it take a lot of dollars - you have to continually kill people
the practice of which we are all tired
none of this could be done without the corporate media and perhaps it is there where reform is most needed in the short term
we live under the threat of martial law at a time when there is no threat from any outsiders whatsoever
the war on terror is a fiction that is supposed to scare you into accepting the obscene military budgets
osama bin laden - please
i hope it is now clear that the notion of these madmen blowing up the wtc towers on 9/11 is not at all a stretch
these bastards would do anything to anyone at any time
as we see in gaza - there is not a shred of humanity to be found with this bunch
it strikes me as bitterly ironic that a guy like cheney - who has zero compassion for any other living thing - travels with a medical team 24/7 because he is afraid of having a fatal heart attack
the alien shape shifting lizard from the sump pump is afraid of his own death
coward
cheers, b
"I don't hate you but I'm glad you're afraid"---Cal to his mother in East of Eden
Anybody who has ever been afraid for any length of time knows that it eats you from the inside out. It shows on Cheney. It shows.
When will AIPAC import this Israeli product to Amerika?
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Historians who have made a specific study of fascist regimes know that the more pronounced the coercive tendencies become (both against the domestic population and its scapegoat enemies) the more self-destructive this form of government becomes to itself and its people. Fascism has always at its core this venom of self-loathing and self-destruction of large elements of its own population whom it must always divide and conquer in order to maintain a gradually, increasingly ruthless and shakey control. Fascism is a schizophrenic form of class semi-consciousness that pretends its people are all part of one hyper-patriotic State where notions like class are subordinated to the good of that State, when in fact its ruling, upper- and middle classes are economically dependent upon foreign subsidies, exploitation of cheap minority labor or military plunder of other nations' land and resources. Consider the damage Bush II's increasingly desperate fascism wrought in Amurka and the still unfolding economic and foreign policy aftermath. Bush's Amurkan Empire would already be in hyper-Depression if not for subsidies from increasingly worried foreign enablers like China, Japan, the Saudis and a few others. Israel is on the rapid downward path of endgame fascism now and is not only destroying what was left of any democratic or moral principles from within, but surrounding itself with regional enemies who are biding the time for the U.S. economy to wither and for that withering to put downward pressure on subsidies for Israel and the Sunnis inside Iraq.
Sorry to spoil your statements about democracy in Israel. Read Israeli newspapers and you'll see huge criticism of the war, significantly more than the common opinion in the Israeli public. The commentaries of Gideon Levy and Amira Hess, which are often quoted or printed in full on this web site, and which focus completely on the suffering on the palestinian side, originally appear on a mainstream Israeli newspaper, Haaretz (which is also available translated to English). There have been numerous other opinions printed in major Israeli newspapers questioning the usefulness of the operation or the morality of Israeli actions. I haven't seen anything similar to that level of criticism in mainstream US media during the war in Iraq.
Demonstrations against the war exist not only in the palestinian population but also in major Jewish cities in Israel.
Arrests were made due to violence of demonstrators: for example - throwing of stones, throwing of molotov bottles, and other illegal activity such as blocking of traffic.
A demonstration in Israel, as in most democratic counties, requires coordination with the police, which can be obtained regardless of the purpose of the demonstration. Illegal demonstrations that obstruct public order are stopped, as they are in other democratic countries. Check your facts.
Now to another mater.
A huge percentage of the Israeli population indeed supported the operation, an almost unprecedented percentage in the response of Israeli society, which is typically very critical - including in times of war. The reason is that the south of Israel was bombarded for several years by thousands of rockets and mortars, hundreds in the month and a half preceeding the operation. Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and complete evacuation of the settlements was not followed by palestinian effort to improve civilian life in Gaza, but rather by turning Gaza into a huge weapons arsenal and manufacting center. Israelis know very well what are the goals of Hamas, as well as what are their mehtods - from the suicide killings in which hundreds of Israeli civilians were ruthlessly killed and thousands were wounded.
While %82 of Israelis support the operation knowing that it was targeted towards Hamas, NOT deliberately towards civilians, about %95 of palestinians in Gaza supported the suicide attacks which were targeted completely towards civilians, and a large majority supported the rocket attacks, which were targeted at Israeli towns and villages.
The fact that a significant percentage of casualties in Gaza are civilian is seen in Israel as a regrettable outcome of the density of the population in Gaza, as well as a result of how Hamas conducts the war, putting civilians and children at the front by their own account.
Here are just a few examples of Hamas ideology, most from Hamas TV. There are many more examples, just search yourself.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1bf_1206527402
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1939.htm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=17e_1230602484
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aea_1231799681
Try to find one example of such violent hatred in mainstream Israeli media.
I'm not even getting into a discussion of freedom of opinion in the Arab world. It's funny how any form of violence and oppression in the Arab world is seen as acceptable in this "progressive" forum.
"Try to find one example of such violent hatred in mainstream Israeli media."
You won't find it in mainstream Israeli media because it is suppressed. Israel has a propaganda machine par excellence, as your post well proves.
What I will show are examples of hatred toward Palestinians by Israeli leaders:
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
When does a statement become propaganda? When you don't like it? I often wish that Israel actually had better “hasbara”.
Every one of your quotes that I'm familiar with is taken out of context or is false, and many of them have nothing to do with the topic of my post. None of them nearly approaches the violent hatred transmitted on a daily basis in the palestinian media, so this is a very lame response.
I’ll refer only to the first “quote” from Ben-Gurion, “We must expel Arabs and take their places”. The true quote, from a letter that he wrote to his son Amos is, “we do not need and do not wish to expel Arabs”. Check your sources. And, no, wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.
You want to go back to the days of Ben Gurion? Why don't I provide some quotes from Haj Amin al Husseini, Hitler's friend, or other prominent Palestinian and Arab leaders from that time. These will be true examples of what murderous, violent rhetoric really is.
But the real problem is that in the arab world that’s also the situation right now. It's sad to see that people who call themselves “progressives” are willing to accept that. In my opinion that’s nothing but racism, the thought that one can’t expect any better from Arabs, that it’s OK if Arab kids are pumped with hatred, violence, and ignorance.
I disliked Sharon, and I strongly opposed his views. I think he had very little regard for either Israeli and Arab lives. Can you get a word of criticism out of your mouth for any action of Hamas? What do you think of the videos that I posted?
I wish I had more time to respond.
The US has had its share of race-baiters and haters who have spewed their hate over the media. Does that make the US a whole nation of racists and haters?
The Arab world has its own haters, as does Israel, as does every nation. Posting excerpts of haters does not make a whole group culpable.
Israel was formed as a Jewish state. It was formed in a land occupied by others - Palestinians - Muslims. Since its inception, Israel has had the goal of taking land away from the Palestinians and giving it to Jews. I don't need to read this on Wikipedia (though, I give it far more credence than I do you). This is known fact, stated by many dissenters who have lived the history of Israel.
For sure, some of the quotes I gave may have been out of context. In order to put them in context, look at what Israel has done AS A STATE, and look at what just happened in Gaza, and look at how the media has been shut down by Israel.
Hamas is a nasty organization, and it no doubt is a den of hate and violence. They have to be dealt with. But, they have to be dealt with in the context of the history which brought them to power. Justice can not be meted out selectively, as Israel has tried to do.
Now, who am I to trust - you, or my lying eyes?