Peaceflag:I am a US citizen by birth. I am a Jew by birth. (I am an atheist Jew since age 15.) My government is the US government.

I look at the "we" you use,"just as we have in the name of terrorism"(no disagreement on idea, but I make a point about "we"). So often people mean "the government" but say "we". Howard Zinn pointed out in a great speech, on DemocracyNow on Jan. 2,2009 that the interests of the government are not the same as the interests of the people. www.democracynow.org

While your comment "It is a shame the Jewish people have a government...." re Israel, I point out that not all Israelis are Jews and Israel does not represent Jews everywhere, such as Americans who are Jews. I am an American, not an Israeli.

I have been making political protest art for several years, altho an artist a long time. I have made "Shame on the US and Israel" art a few years ago,more than one, and agree with calling "shame" on governments, ours, the US government, and the Israeli government.

When the US military used white phosphorus in Fallujah, I made protest art. Now, I have made protest art linking Fallujah and Gaza, before the news of the white phosphorus in Gaza.

Like you, "it's breaking my heart". I wrote my member of the House of Rep., and told him that I'd just sent a thank you to both Rep. Dennis Kucinich and Rep. Maxine Waters. My Congressmember was NOT one of the "NO" votes for the nonbinding resolution last week in support of Israel, not urging a ceasefire. I have been writing my Congressmember for years and told him that if he voted for the bailout, he'd not see my vote for him again. And sending my peace/protest art. I kept my word in the last election. (He was in no danger of losing his seat. I hope there's a contender for his seat in the next Dem.primary.)

Whatever way we can work for peace will help.

Peaceflag,

I am Christian and also a Jew by birth. To me, supporting Israel is just a matter of doing the right thing. It doesn't matter if you are Jew or gentile. If you are confused why Israel is so important to the Jewish people, I recommend reading rabbi Harold S. Kushner's "To Life: A Celebration of Jewish Being and Thinking". Kushner shares my support for Israel. He talks about such topics as the love of Israel by Jews, how Jews and Christians need to understand one another. This book was actually recommended to me by another poster here on CD, and I've found it quite helpful in answering some questions I've had, like "who is a Jew"? and "are Jews a people?".

Although keep in mind that Kushner is a rabbi from Judaism's Conservative movement, so the perspective you're getting is largely from his take on Jewish observance and belief, though he does make efforts to show you the Reform and Orthodox perspectives as well.

I don't think you have considered the unique challenges faced by Israel. Hamas is not a progressive non-violent revolutionary movement. Since their founding, their motive hasn't changed, they wish to destroy Israel through the use of terrorism. There is no disputing that the destruction of Zionism is their goal. They will not recognize Israel's right to exist. On the other hand, Israel recognizes not only the Palestinian's right to exist, but their right to sovereignty. That is why they are willing to support the peace process and a two-state solution. However, they have made but one demand that is non-negotiable, and that is that Hamas cease their campaign of terror against the people of Israel. Yet Hamas refuses.

For 8 long years they have been endlessly raining down bombs on Israel, breaking ceasefire after ceasefire. The psychological impact of living in this kind of environment cannot be understated. A whole generation of Israeli schoolchildren are being educated in bomb shelters. Mother's and father's fear their sons will be sent to die in Gaza.

Some argue that because Hamas uses inaccurate rockets that diminishes the insidiousness of their crimes. I would argue the exact opposite. Intent is important. Hamas's intent is to randomly butcher as many civilians as possible. Israel is trying to save civilians from getting caught in the crossfire.

If a policeman accidentally kills your child while trying to save the lives of many people, that is tragic, but we understand that their intent was to do the right thing. If a madman poisoned the water supply and killed thousands of people, their intent was murder. Their is a huge difference between these two analogies. Israel is one of the most powerful military powers on the planet. They could kill every last Palestinian if they wanted to. They could have done that years ago.

But instead, they use surgical strikes and smart bombs to try to minimize civilian casualties. If Hamas had an army as strong as Israel's, then every last man, woman, and child in Israel would be dead. The challenge that Israel faces is that if the don't deal with Hamas, then what happens down the road? What happens if Iran or Syria supplies Hamas with more powerful weapons? Hamas is just waiting for the chance to make their own 911 is Israel. Should Israel do nothing?

Hamas is like cancer, and if you just ignore it, it will kill you.

Chomsky just gave a talk at MIT
http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N63/chomskytalk.html

Supposedly that will be on Democracy Now soon. The MIT website will have video of the talk soon as well.

Why do you need to wait until Tuesday to figure it out? The New Boss Elect is EXACTLY like the old Boss.

Olbermann and Maddow toe the line. That's why they remain on air. Liberals are acceptable as long as they remain uncritical of Israel. Once they criticize Israel, they are persona non grata. This even applies to ex-presidents.

In fact, this is almost a rule of thumb for Western media which demonizes anyone critical of Israel. For example, Chavez would have much better press if he didn't speak out in support of Palestinian rights. His revolutionary ideals would be much more positively protrayed if he had simply ignored the issue. Amazing really.

There is actually more coverage on FOX than MSNBC where there is a total news blackout.

Clue.

Olbermann and Maddow have been furiously disappointing on this. Both go on constantly about war crimes WE commit, but can apparently wink at those same crimes if committed by Israel.

Rachel is obviously a hardcore Zionist whose liberality stops at Israel's yet undefined borders. I wrote her on this and said that until she grew into the concept that even Palestinians deserved human rights to spare us any more whining about her and her friends not being able to get married.

She also, at the beginning of the slaughter, did mention Israel's attack on her show, but it was all the typical Zionist talking points and of course for backup had a nice Jewish boy (Richard Engel) on to explain it all to us.

Keith's refusal to even acknowledge that any of this is even taking place is pathetic and he just lost me as a long time fan. And if anyone knows of an email for him, please post. I have been all over MSNBC's site several times and cannot find one. Rachel's is rachel@msnbc.com

That may be true. It is also unfortunately a fact that this present slaughter is approved by 95% of the Israelis. So much for the power of Jewish peace groups. Sorry.

Maybe. But not in the U.S. and not in Israel, where Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud Party are leading in the polls heading into next month's election (I heard in one report 80%). As a reminder: Netanyahu thinks the current occupation and assault are not going anywhere near far enough.

Israel will not be satisfied until they have completely absorbed Gaza and the West Bank into Greater Israel and secured every single water source, including the Jordan River. Hand-in-hand with this goal is that every Palestinian still alive resides somewhere else: Jordan, Syria, or Egypt. (And at this point I wouldn't bet too much money on the long-term survival possibilities for Lebanon once these first two goals are reached.)

I was re-reading Herbert Samuel's "An Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine during the period 1 July 1920 to 30 June 1921"; Samuel was the High Commissioner and Commander-in-Chief of the British occupying force.

Fascinating stuff. The derisive and, at the same time, paternalistic view of everyone and everything non-British is typical of the time, but when you start to read past the naive, patronizing pronouncements it helps in bringing a longer term perspective to the genocide Israel is practicing in Gaza today.

From the report: "There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people.... Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or a small number - are Protestants.

"The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil.
...
"The British Government was impressed by the reality, the strength and the idealism of this movement [Zionism]. It recognised its value in ensuring the future development of Palestine, which now appears likely to come within the British sphere of influence. It decided to give to the Zionist idea, within certain limits, its approval and support. By the hand of Mr. Balfour, then Foreign Secretary, it made, in November, 1917, the following Declaration:

'His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish People, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish Communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other Country.'

This pronouncement was received with the warmest gratitude and enthusiasm by the mass of the Jewish people throughout the world. ...Meanwhile, however, a section of native opinion in Palestine was becoming disturbed as to the meaning of British policy. Welcoming release from Turkish misgovernment, anxious to accept the benefit of British assistance in securing an efficient administration, it was uneasy as to the implications of the Balfour Declaration. To install the Jews in Palestine might mean the expulsion of the Arabs. If there were an unlimited Jewish immigration and finally a Jewish majority in the population, how could the safeguards embodied in the second half of the Declaration be enforced? The ownership by the Arabs of their lands and homes would be imperiled. The Moslem Holy Places, and particularly the Haram-esh-Sherif on Mount Moriah, might be taken from them. Quotations from the speeches and writings of Zionist leaders, which were said to justify these forebodings, were translated into Arabic and circulated by the press among the people. An organization was formed, with branches in many parts of the country, to combat the application of the Zionist policy. Individuals or groups, in Palestine or elsewhere, who had some interest in causing embarrassment to the Administration, stimulated the agitation. The wildest stories as to the intentions of the Jews and the fate awaiting the Arabs were circulated in the towns and villages, and were often believed by a credulous people. ...Many men of education and enlightenment among the Arabs took no part, however, in this antagonism. They recognised that the fears that had been expressed were illusory. They realised that Jewish co-operation was the best means, perhaps the only means, of promoting the prosperity of Palestine, a prosperity from which the Arabs could not fail to benefit. They desired the maintenance of peace and order, and they had confidence that the British Government would permit no injustice, even if injustice were intended. And among the mass of the population there were large numbers who, taking no interest in politics, thinking only of the needs of daily life, made no response to the agitation that sought to arouse their fears and inflame their passions."

Yeah. Bunch of paranoid, illiterate Arabs, always thinking that some Jewish people are gonna come steal their ancestral homes!

"no gods, no masters" --m. sanger

So do we call this 'ethnic cleansing' or 'genocide'?

What's the PC term for wiping out a people these days?

Walk in peace.

The food, water, and medical supplies stored at the UN compound have been confirmed by CBC, BBC and other news agencies.

Attacking a marked and well known UN location is a violation of the Geneva conventions similar to attacking a hospital (which Israel has also done BTW).

As a signatory to the UN (which Israel has been harping about), it's leaders are now subject to arrest and trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity if they ever travel.

Walk in peace.

Har Davids:I do not feel guilty at being an American, atheist Jew and protesting ("not supporting") the Israeli government's attacks on Gaza. I do not feel guilty for being an American and protesting ("not supporting")my government's attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq, and protesting my government's supporting Israel's attacks on Gaza.

chaufan:claudia. I respect your pain. I feel big pain, almost "pain overload". I am an atheist Jew. I am angry. I work at not equating the behavior of the Israeli government with being a Jew, just as I am angry at the US government, (I am a US citizen) for its enabling Israel's government in this horrific attack on Gaza. I am more connected to the United States than I am to Israel. I am an older woman. There are things we can do with our pain and anger, even if its small ways. I don't know your country, but you know what I mean. I have sent a thank you note to both Dennis Kucinich and Maxine Waters. I have made protest art and sent out many, stuffing envelopes as can. It makes me feel a little less powerless.

It is how I have felt about being an American during the Vietnam and now during the Iraq wars and the siege of Gaza. Or when we provided critical help to overthrow governments in Congo, or Chile or Haiti etc. etc. Or sometimes I have felt that way about being white. It can drive you crazy.

You cannot help the circumstances of your birth, good or bad. Don't be ashamed. Just live by what is best in you.

I was on a vigil / protest about Gaza last Wednesday evening. I would say the majority of white Americans there were Jewish. There were far too few people of any type, but Jews were better than others.

Joe