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TechnoratiTerrorists Strike In Mumbai
Dozens still held hostage in India after night of terror attacks that left hundreds dead and injured
Indian commandos freed hostages from Mumbai's Taj Mahal hotel today but faced continued resistance in other parts of the city from Islamist militants still holding between 50 and 200 of hostages and demanding the release of extremists held in Indian jails.
![[Mumbai police stand guard after shootings took place inside a railway station in Mumbai, November 26, 2008. (Punit Paranjpe/Reuters)]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/india1127.jpg "india1127.jpg")
The commandos
stormed two buildings in the late afternoon, seizing the lobby of the
Oberoi hotel and taking positions around a tower block where a number
of militants were believed to be holed up. Indian television reported
that some hostages were freed from the Oberoi.
Security forces seized grenades, bullet magazines for AK-47 machine guns and provisions from the Taj hotel, according to NDTV. A large fire has broken out in the old wing of the hotel, and NDTV reported more explosions from both hotels.
A National Security Guard spokesman said 200 more NSG
commandos were being rushed to Mumbai. An Indian army major, quoted by
the Times of India, said the force was preparing for a final assault.
Link to video.
Link to audio.
The gunmen arrived yesterday in India's financial capital by boat before fanning out to launch a series of bloody attacks on luxury hotels, restaurants, a rail terminus and an ultra-orthodox Jewish centre, killing more than 100 people. British and Americans were reportedly rounded up as hostages.
Today, one of the kidnappers in the Oberoi said the hostages, some of whom were believed to be westerners, would only be released if "mujahideens" and Islamic militants were released from Indian jails.
The kidnapper, who identified himself as Sahadullah, told Indian TV that he was one of seven attackers inside the Oberoi hotel. "Release all the mujahideens, and Muslims living in India should not be troubled," he said.
India's prime minister said the government would ensure those responsible did not escape the law. Manmohan Singh said in a national address: "We intend to ensure the safety of our citizens. We salute the police and men who lay down their lives in fighting these terrorists.
"The well-planned and well-orchestrated attacks, probably with external linkages, were intended to create a sense of terror by choosing high-profile targets."
Police and gunmen exchanged heavy fire early this morning and a number of people managed to flee the Taj Mahal hotel.
The deputy state chief of Maharashtra, RR Patil, confirmed the commandos had caught one militant alive as they tried to flush them out of the hotels.
"They have held a few people hostages," he said. "Therefore, the operation is taking place at a slower pace. Five have been killed and one has been caught alive. We have got all the information."
Gunmen seized the Mumbai headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch. Commandos surrounded the building this morning and witnesses said gunfire could be heard from inside.
A militant holed up in the centre phoned an Indian television channel to offer talks with the government for the release of hostages, but also to complain about abuses in Indian Kashmir. "Ask the government to talk to us and we will release the hostages," said the man, identified by the India TV channel as Imran, speaking in Urdu with what sounded like a Kashmiri accent.
"Are you aware how many people have been killed in Kashmir? Are you aware how your army has killed Muslims?" he said.
One police officer who encountered the gunmen as they entered the Jewish centre told the Guardian the attackers were "white", although this could mean they were paler-skinned Indians from the country's north.
"I went into the building late last night," he said. "I got a shock because they were white. I was expecting them to look like us. They fired three shots. I fired 10 back.
"We know they have kept five Jewish families as hostages. They are in the building below the flat where the terrorists are in. Every time the Jewish families try to move out, the terrorists shoot them. They have grenades, they have AK47s. The neighbours told us these men had brought 100kg of chicken. They want to last out for a few days."
A senior government official for Maharashtra state said the dead included at least one Briton, an Australian and a Japan. The Italian foreign ministry in Rome said an Italian was killed.
A German media manager named as 51-year-old Ralph Burkei died from his injuries after trying to escape from an upper floor of the Taj hotel.
"Ralph wanted to flee from an upper floor of the building but he fell," Munich's Abendzeitung newspaper quoted an unnamed friend as saying. The friend said Burkei called on his mobile phone from a lower rooftop saying: "I've broken all the bones in my body. If no one helps me right now, I won't make it." Burkei died on the way to hospital.
The home secretary for Maharashtra state, Bipin Shrimali, said four suspects were killed at two battle scenes in Mumbai when they tried to flee in cars, while four more gunmen were reported killed at the Taj Mahal hotel.
Reports said a previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen had claimed responsibility for the attacks in emails to several media outlets. There was no way to verify that claim.
Witnesses said the attackers were young south Asian men in their early 20s, most likely of Indian nationality, and spoke Hindi or Urdu.
Dr George Kassimeris, an expert in conflict and terrorism at the University of Wolverhampton, said the terrorists behind the coordinated attacks had followed a "blueprint" created by al-Qaida.
Professor Richard Bonney, the author of Jihad: From Qu'ran To Bin Laden, said: "This attack looks more dangerous and better planned, though not directed against possible government targets but economic ones and of course the western allies."
A spokesman for the Pakistan-based militant group Lashkar-E-Taiba denied it was involved.
Mumbai is today a ghost town, with the normally chaotic and crowded streets eerily still.
The Indian navy said its forces had boarded and were searching a cargo vessel suspected of ties to the attacks.
Navy spokesman Captain Manohar Nambiar said the ship, the MV Alpha from Karachi, Pakistan, had recently docked at Mumbai.
42 Comments so far
Show All"This whole board is spewing hate against all groups, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Indian etc. It needs to stop!!!!"
Yep. It's been going on for a long time here, is highly counterproductive, and just makes the movement look like an insular subculture of backbiters and demgogues, which only helps the Right. It's partly why I stopped posting.
No religion of religious group is inherently evil. Too many people, right and left can't seem to grasp that.
Ok, say we wipe out all Muslims because some of them kill and maim. Then we'd have to wipe out all Christians because some of them spew intolerance and hate, and let's not forget the Crusades. We'd have to wipe out all the Jews because some of them are Zionists and support the disenfranchisement and murder of Palestinians.
Some whites lynch blacks and burn crosses on their property. So let's sterilize them. Some blacks and browns belong to criminal gangs. So let's sterilize them.
Let's sterilize the Hindus because some of them marginalize and oppress Muslims.
Don't forget the Germans. Let's sterilize them also. China oppresses Tibet, so let's sterilize the Chinese.
There 'aint gonna be a lot of people left if we follow Carla's path.
"There 'aint gonna be a lot of people left if we follow Carla's path."
... except Carla ! Cockroaches can survive a nuclear disaster.
WOW ! I am amazed that even on this site, people would show their hostility towards the Hindus. My wife's brother lived in Pakistan for 2 years and in India for 3 and I can tell you straight up that in India, there's actually far more religious tolerance whereas in Pakistan and Afghanistan, your life is at risk unless you convert to Islam. I'm afraid that much as I detest bombing a nation, Carla Waters is correct.
Another thing that is ignored is this. Did you notice that the news networks covered only the Jews and Westerners on the attack while everyone else's lives were rendered irrelevant? If all those Americans and Jews were just regular Indians, the Mumbai attack on the hotels would have made no news whatsoever. As a matter of fact, on July 11, 2006, the terrorist attack on a Mumbai subway was similar to the one in Spain in 2004 and yet the media coolly ignored the Mumbai one unlike the Spain one. I find it also truly amazing the like the rightwing, the leftwing has the nerve to come up with double standards in religion. If Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc ... had actually done the terrorizing against the Muslims, this board and the rest of the liberal blogosphere would be showing their outrage at the lives whereas in this case, the leftwing would much rather say that Indians (except for the Muslim ones) are bad people despite the fact that they are the people we rely on for business and use them as slaves. And I noticed on conservative blogs that it is no different from the rightwing. If Christians and/or Jews are attacked, show outrage and go after them whereas if the Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc ... are the victims, then give them the middle finger. I am disheartened to find such religious animosity even on the left. I'd expect the rightwing to be hostile but not the leftwing. Oh well, I guess those ordinary Indian civilians who were the most to lose their lives don't matter to you rightwingers and leftwingers out there, do they?
Jason Jordan
Sandpoint, Idaho
This whole board is spewing hate against all groups, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Indian etc. It needs to stop!!!! We need to come together as humanbeings and condemn this violence and support the Indian people who were victims of this and also the expat victims of this violence. Really enough of the hate!
As always DC's voice of reason is the only one worth reading. It seems as though the Left's blind hatred of Bush and his policies automatically translates to giving jihadi Islam a free pass while you have fundamentalist and 'nationalistic' Indians spewing vicious bile against the majority of Indian Muslims who had nothing to do with this attack.
The U.S. and Pakistan bear the full brunt of blame for these attacks for willfully following policies that created these monsters. We need to focus our energy in holding them accountable, as impossible as it seems.
I'm with you all the way on that. People need to work to get bad governments off their backs. Sorry I still have libertarian residue so please don't be offended. Government that governs the least governs the best.
Jason Jordan
Sandpoint, Idaho
This whole board is spewing hate against all groups, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Indian etc. It needs to stop!!!! We need to come together as humanbeings and condemn this violence and support the Indian people who were victims of this and also the expat victims of this violence. Really enough of the hate!
Amen. I am rather appalled.
Joe
A comment near the top (most recent)by AZCowBoy, exhibits the kind of intense hatred of Jews that I usually ignore. After thinking about the subject, I'll use it as an illustration of what James Carroll was addressing in writing "Constantine's Sword". James Carroll articles are frequently found on CommonDreams. His nonfiction history, "Constantine's Sword" is the history of why Christians hate Jews, culminating in the Jewish Holocaust in WWII. Carroll had been a seminarian,but left. There is a new video, not a video-visualization of the book, but based on it, also called "Constantine's Sword". Google it.
AZCowBoy didn't address his Jew hating as hating the policies of Israel. He used the word "Jews". That was my clue. Vile language in re Jews is Jew baiting. The other clue was quoting Christian bible scripture in re Jews and destruction.
As a child, growing up in Brooklyn, I was ignorant of Jew hatred locally. I was a child during WWII and watched my grandmother, Bubbie in Yiddish, with the "ie" sound that Polish and Russian people put on endings of words, such as Bubba (yes, that Southern word in the US is the Yiddish word for grandmother) but it's really sounding like Bubbe as in eh.
Why did the Church, as Carroll writes, hate Jews going way back? He explores it all kinds of ways. Long and wonderful book, which I stopped reading when it got into theology as I am an atheist Jew. I think it is best summarized as Christians hate Jews because Jews do not accept Jesus Christ as Messiah and won't become Christians.
It was knowing that I am a Jew and some of the history of my people, that as an American, I was able from my pre-teen years identify with other minority groups:African-Americans and within the last decade plus, with Muslims and Palestinians. People post on CD and other blogs with fake names. They may use it as a cloak for being the "bad boys" they wouldn't dare act out if they were known, or names may be irrelevant. I am amused, wryly, at the same comment batch by a "hater" uses words of psychiatric labeling about others. (I will not touch the obvious, like spelling.)
So sad to see most people here taking the bait. You'd think progressives would know better.
Re: The attack in Bumbia, India.
Like Israel in Gaza, the world doesn't know, because the corporate media doesn't want us to know, just how brutal the Indian military is, and has been, in subjugating Kashmir for decades.
So, if the condemnation of the Islamic resistance is of concern, so should be the concern for the peaceful return of sovereigty to the people of Kasmir who have been 'between a rock and a hard spot' for decades as the Indian and Pakistani 'wild dogs' do as they will with their Kashmirian 'rag doll.'
The interesting part of this 'psychiatric disorder' is that the same 'principals' that are involved as 'targets' in this battle. The US/British/Jewish killers, that continue to murder innocent Afghans/Pakistani's/Somalian's/Palestinians/Lebanese) for the same reason - Greed for land, water, gas and oil and their 'beloved' pipeline routes.
The oll/gas line pipeline through (UNOCAL) Afghanistan. The oil/gas line through madman Sashkavilli's Georgia (Exxon-Mobile/British Petroleum & Israeli oil) and the theft of Kosovo (another British Petroleum, Dutch-Shell, Exxon-Mobile gas/oil line project, of course) from Serbia by the US/British hegemons has been paid for in mostly Arab blood, so do they not have the right to attack and destroy these 'monsters' as they leisure in India? (You don't have to answer that one)
In Afghanistan USAF B-1B bombers lay their 50,000 lb. cluster bomb loads on pitifully poor Arab villages that hold, often but one (maybe) 'terrorist' suspect, leaving the dead and dying innocent men, women and children torn to shreds in the freezing snow and then the Predators/Grim Reapers come along firing their 'horrendous' AGM-117 hellfire missiles into Pakistani villages where another 'suspect' was 'known to have been hiding' later to discover that 30/50/80 innocents lie there in pieces and one has to ask why the attacks in Bumbia?!!!!
The answer is written in the Holy Scriptures:
Psalm 145:20
"Jehovah is guarding them that love him - the evil ones he will annihilate."
(So it is written - so it will be done)
Look out Great Satan and your Jewish hemmoroids (and the British killers too) for it will be 'fire & brimestone' for some time to came.
TheAZCowBoy
Tombstone, AZ.
Unfortunately your family hasnt been shot in the head or firebombed. If that were to happen in a terrorist attack, your grisly eye-for-an-eye judgment would come to a screeching halt.
Kashmiris by and large were and are a peaceful lot but have definitiely been radicalized thanks in large part to Pakistans incessant and successful meddling in the region. decades of Pakistani support to insurgency coupled with fundamentalist indoctrination has brought the Kashmir problem to this stage. The Indian Army has definitely committed atrocities as well which can not be denied.
India will not and cannot give up Kashmir. Its akin to the U.S. voluntarily giving up California (at least Northern California !!). Pakistan will never give up Baluchistan or Sind or Punjab or the Waziristans. Thats the reality and it doesnt matter how we spin this.
Actually, the so-called "Kashmiri separatists" are nothing more than Al Quaida hacks trying to destabilize the region. The US and Europe have been arming the Islamic militants who in return crush their own followers. The good Muslims need to show some spine and purge their community of the extremists who are nothing more than a puppet of the military elite. Otherwise, the innocent ones will continue to suffer all the while the terrorists keeps winning.
You are correct about the wars for oil and water. Have you ever heard of INDUSTRIAL HEMP? It has been banned for 70+ years for no reason other than to keep Big Oil happy. Legalize that for fuel and wars for oil will be gone.
I've read 20 comments. I am having trouble understanding what has and is happening in Mumbai. I think it will be clearer as more journalists with the help of long time analysts start looking at it. I have been a listener and reader of Arundhati Roy (often on DemocracyNow). I am sad every time people are hurt. I am trying to figure out why the Jewish Center was targeted. (I'm an atheist Jew. I grew up in an Orthodox family from E. Europe, not Hassidim.)
The tone of comments is disappointing to me. I hope folks gets more reflective, analytical and give up on the name calling and personal attacks. There's a world in a mess. It needs all of us to help clean up the messes that our government's policies have helped make in the mess. ( I don't like military solutions. I was opposed to attacking Afghanistan after Sept. 11,2001. I saw it as a police action and think war was a bad idea. I said it then. )
The fact that India's tiny, well-accepted and peaceful Jewish population was attacked is very suspicious to me. What better way to inflame Jewish opinion and shift world sympathy? What better to unite India and Israel against Pakistan? India has had a long enmity with Pakistan, engineered by the departing British in their usual divisive exit strategy. Israel / Pakistan tensions are part of the general Jewish / Moslem divide. The two have separate issues with Pakistan, but up to now have not been allies.
Who wants to build up opinion and concensus to attack Pakistan? Think Think. Let us not be stampeded by what could be a set-up job. We need to KNOW WHO DID THIS before embarking on any response. Any response should be a legal response to the individuals who committed a set of criminal acts, not a collective punishment attack against the men, women and children of any country.
Joe
Dude you sound like this Carla but from the other side ! Do you seriously believe the Indians staged this to malign Pakistan ? How deluded are you again ??
Sorry if I gave the impression to anyone that I think Indians staged these attacks. I think no such thing. I do think these attacks provide an opportunity for the USA to build support to escalate attacks into Pakistan, which some here have been itching to do.
Furthermore, when we find out who carried out these attacks, we should not extend the culpability to all the people of their particular religion or country. I will keep an open mind and not jump to any conclusions, nor advocate a kneejerk military retaliation against anyone.
Joe
"Furthermore, when we find out who carried out these attacks, we should not extend the culpability to all the people of their particular religion or country"
I totally agree. I do also think that if this group/s operate out of any country, that country needs to take serious action to dismantle these groups or they will essentially be perceived as condoning them.
So do I agree with both of you, but you may be surprised at which country and people you are talking about.
It seems that some here are totally convinced already that Pakistan and Muslim extremists are the culprits and have no interest in facts or background which may show something totally different. Some people seem to want to satisfy there Prejudice, or convince others to be prejudiced. (A lot like 9-11. wouldn’t you say?)
What would you say if the country that was organizing terrorist groups to appear as Muslim extremists was Israel? I'm not saying it is, but here are some reasons it might be:
“The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs.
This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan.
Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan.
It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.”
This statement was issued by none other than David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle, 9 August 1967:
If you don't think Israel has any part to play in matters between India and Pakistan and their relations to terrorism, enlighten yourself with anti-terror joint development, read : Mossad and Indian Intelligence Target Pakistan, by Tariq Saeedi of The Balochistan Post.
http://eldib.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/mossad-and-indian-intelligence-target-pakistan/
Please keep an open mind and remember very little is what it appears to be.
I agree with you. Right now there is little information and what we see are people's prejudices zooming in to fill the vacuum. I wait to see what Arundhati Roy and Tariq Ali have to say. I also believe that all good people should demand a swift calm, independent, professional, non-partisan investigation of exactly who was involved before anyone (like us) uses the opportunity to rush in with military "solutions".
Joe Clientelle
Re: The Jewish center attacks; Oh yeah, the 'indiscriminate' attacks on the 'eternal victims.'
Perhaps you should read up on what Israel is doing in Gaza (and the West Bank) - starving, murdering, maiming and displacing innocent Palestinian families from the homes and lands where they have lived on for millennia and then you might 'catch the drift' of the seething anger Islam has for the evil twins, the US/Israel 'homicide twins' and their joint 'war crimes' in hapless Palestine who hasn't even an army to defend its people.
We need to end "The War on Terror" period. It has done nothing but create more discord and make certain people wealthier and heavier.
If we are to bomb anyone, let it be with butter. Violence only emboldens the poor, angry, and desperate,is usually visited upon the innocent,and ulitimately benefits those who rule.
I am so grateful for the few thoughtful posts on this issue. Thanks.
Joe
Ok, I've said this on another post but this article pretty much deserves the same response and by the way, thanks to DCBeltway and Gyptian for bringing up the ISI issue.
It's amazing that the so-called "left" in this country has no problem with Israel attacking innocent Palestinians and yet these same people blame the Hindus in India for everything. They think that bad Muslims in India are "good". On the issue of Pakistan, much as I hate to see the innocent folks get killed, I say forget it. They had the chance to stop the militants from brainwashing the public and they blew it. For this issue, I don't regret my vote for Obama. Obama should just blow the country out by redirecting troops from Iraq. Al Queda could have been crushed in Afghanistan in 2001 itself but America blew her opportunity. It's in Pakistan now and now is the time to smoke them out. And while at it, will the so-called "left" please wake the hell up and get rid of the CIA? The CIA has been a complete failure and is the payroll center for Al Queda even today. ABOLISH THE CIA ALREADY !
P.S.: India is even more dog-eat-dog than America that terrorist attacks are the least of their worries. The population in that country is too dense for any reasonable solution to take place. The real reason for too high population density is those ILLEGAL MUSLIMS entering and producing out of control. India needs real leadership to cut down on Muslim overpopulation as the Muslim extremists have ruined otherwise great traditions in that country.
This is a confused post, all over the map.
"It's amazing that the so-called "left" in this country has no problem with Israel attacking innocent Palestinians and yet these same people blame the Hindus in India for everything."
Huh? Where do you get your information. Where is this famous pro-Israel anti-Hindu left?
Most of the left and many decent people in the center here and even within Israel find Israel's role in Gaza excruciating and spend much time trying to remedy the situation. We can however be criticized for being too few and too ineffectual, here as in other arenas.
Aside from critiques of some cruel aspects of the caste system or status of women, I have never heard much discussion of Hindus. In fact, everyone I know on the left thinks it is tragic that Hindus and Muslims, who co-existed before, were set against each other by the British during the partition. Hinduism and India are too complex to be characterized by any simplistic attitude, especially blame.
Joe
Carla Muslims have always been a part of India. Many Muslims chose to stay even while other went to Pakistan during the partition. Blaming all Muslims for the acts of these sick extremists is bigotry. Your comments smack of hate and bigotry. Cut it out.
Indian people of all religious faiths should come together now and support one another, condemn this henious act, bring the terrorists to justice, mourn the innocent lives lost and do not allow secterian violence to happen. My thoughts and prayers are with the Indian people right now and the innocent lives lost or injured in this horrific terrorist attack.
"Carla Muslims have always been a part of India. Many Muslims chose to stay even while other went to Pakistan during the partition."
But that does not excuse ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION which is being done by most Muslims in Pakistan who won't stand up to the tyranny in their own country. As for the breakup, I don't see you taking on England who was responsible for dividing the country for use against Russia.
"Blaming all Muslims for the acts of these sick extremists is bigotry. Your comments smack of hate and bigotry. Cut it out. "
I'm not against all Muslims. I'm against those who give their good ones a bad name. Furthermore, if the good Muslims don't like the extremists, then why aren't they doing anything to stop them? Talk to them in India, Afghanistan, and Pakistan and while they'll claim that they don't condone such atrocities, they refuse to hold them accountable.
"Indian people of all religious faiths should come together now and support one another, condemn this henious act, bring the terrorists to justice, mourn the innocent lives lost and do not allow secterian violence to happen."
As long as even the innocent bystanders in the Muslim community REFUSE to stand up to the extremists and militants giving the community a bad rap, FORGET IT. The innocent bystanders need to stand up and draw the line or they're just part of the problem, get it?
"My thoughts and prayers are with the Indian people right now and the innocent lives lost or injured in this horrific terrorist attack."
You can keep praying for the Indian people but once they die, your prayers are null and void.
"Furthermore, if the good Muslims don't like the extremists, then why aren't they doing anything to stop them?"
This is asinine, to say the least. When the 'bad' hindus slaughtered muslims did the 'good' hindus 'talk' to them ? Did they do anything to prevent it ? Let me guess ... they were just responding to muslim provocation right ? You're so called concern for the innocents is couched in bigotry. Get over it or shut the f~!k up.
Asinine? Excuse me sir but you failed to defend your own Muslim friends who are letting the mess get worse. You can't even face the truth so there you go inventing some anti-Hindu propaganda, not that I give a darn about Hindus as I'm an atheist, to cover up for the bad Muslims giving the good ones a bad rap and the good Muslims refusing to stand up to the rotten apples in their community. No other set of religious people carry out massive terror attacks the way Muslims do and you know it. You can blame the Hindus all you want but India and the USA are the only two countries that are nice enough to hire Muslims the most. You can't even find a single Muslim nation come close. You have no concern for the innocent Muslims and go about justifying their refusal to stand up to the extremists as you've demonstrated so you're the real bigot.
I think Carla makes some good points.
Keep in mind that although not all Muslims are Islamists, and not all Islamists are terrorists, all Muslim terrorists are Islamists.
And while there are moderate Muslims, there is no moderate Islam.
For moderate Muslims Ijtihad is the preferred method of choice for social and political change and military Jihad the last option. For militant Muslims, military Jihad is the first option and Ijtihad is not an option at all.
And while some people are cultural and nominal Muslims who are ignorant of and/or indifferent to the jihad imperative, it cannot be assumed (as many Western government and law enforcement officials assume) that any given peaceful Muslim opposes the jihad simply by virtue of the fact that he is not actively engaged in violence or participating in plotting in a violent jihad group. So Carla's point that "if the good Muslims don't like the extremists, then why aren't they doing anything to stop them?" - seems quite lucid to me.
I totally agree with Carla's other point that "Obama should just blow the country out by redirecting troops from Iraq. Al Queda could have been crushed in Afghanistan in 2001 itself but America blew her opportunity. It's in Pakistan now and now is the time to smoke them out."
The time has come to fight the War on Terror the right way, the way it should have been fought all along. I don't like war (no sane person would) But there are good wars and bad wars. Just wars and unjust wars. Smart wars and dumb wars. Well, the time has come to end the dumb war, and fight the smart war. So I agree, Carla, the US should "blow the country out" or up, either way, let's do what needs to be done. I just HOPE it doesn't take another 911 for the all the so-called progressives to realize that although Bush was bad, the threat of terror is real, and must be dealt with. While we sit here typing away, there are still some very angry Islamists out there who want nothing more than to harm Americans. Like it or not, that's reality.
Thanks Joe. I don't really like to do shoot first and ask later policies. In the case of Afghanistan and Pakistan, the way I've noticed the people's mood so far, they feel hopeless and stay lifeless or they desperately join the Taliban hoping that they'll get anywhere in life. Try to give them a 3rd way and it's often hard to convince them to accept since they're too fixed to make room for improvement. I studied the history of those nations and they've been given so many chances that I often find myself outraged that they'd give these nations so many chances to blow. I applauded Bush at first for hitting back in Afghanistan where the Taliban ruled but was outraged when he shifted to Iraq when we should have finished our job by crushing Al Quaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan rather than simply displacing them and allowing them to regroup and spread like wildfire again. We had no business in Iraq. Iran only won from our attack in Iraq and Al Quaida is in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Iran is far more secular than Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and yet SA and Pak still continue to get support from our corrupted officials in the US and Europe. India, like Israel, plays a major role in the global economy and Obama's going to be under a hell of lot of pressure to keep his promises on taking down the terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan where they're mainly located. I don't think the US, India, Israel, Turkey, Spain, or any country deserves a 9/11 and if we need to toughen up our thinking, I say go for it.
Thanks Joe. I don't really like to do shoot first and ask later policies. In the case of Afghanistan and Pakistan, the way I've noticed the people's mood so far, they feel hopeless and stay lifeless or they desperately join the Taliban hoping that they'll get anywhere in life. Try to give them a 3rd way and it's often hard to convince them to accept since they're too fixed to make room for improvement. I studied the history of those nations and they've been given so many chances that I often find myself outraged that they'd give these nations so many chances to blow. I applauded Bush at first for hitting back in Afghanistan where the Taliban ruled but was outraged when he shifted to Iraq when we should have finished our job by crushing Al Quaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan rather than simply displacing them and allowing them to regroup and spread like wildfire again. We had no business in Iraq. Iran only won from our attack in Iraq and Al Quaida is in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Iran is far more secular than Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and yet SA and Pak still continue to get support from our corrupted officials in the US and Europe. India, like Israel, plays a major role in the global economy and Obama's going to be under a hell of lot of pressure to keep his promises on taking down the terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan where they're mainly located. I don't think the US, India, Israel, Turkey, Spain, or any country deserves a 9/11 and if we need to toughen up our thinking, I say go for it.
you're an idiot.
If there's something about his post that you disagree with, at least spell it out. Your "he's an idiot" alone is a pathetic response.
Joe Dope talked about 'blowing a country out'. He also uses a bigoted argument in which he makes idiotic generalisations about all Muslims being somehow complicit in the actions of a very small minority who claim that religion.
And of course he gives us that tired old right wing mantra the 'war on terror'. And then goes on to speak of the latest right winger corporate militarist to support that Bush fallacy, the Obama fraudster.
So let me expand on that earlier post, Joe Dope is not just an idiot, he's a bigoted idiot.
I don't know about Joe Hope and the way he bases his support. However, I am terribly misunderstood by the brain damaged idiots who complain about Muslims getting persecuted all the while refusing to stand up to the terrorists in the Muslim community giving Muslims a bad rap. I don't believe the Far Right or the Far Left understand the reality and are happy to rattle on the "war on terror" shit. Don't get me wrong. I don't support the shoot first ask later policy but I know where to draw the line. The US and Israel had no business attacking Iraq or Iraq and they still don't. But countries that harbour terrorist groups the most and are stuck with civilians who refuse to organize and stand up to their oppressive leaders and militants are equally guilty. Pakistan has been given plenty of "free" chances by the US, Europe, and surprisingly even Israel. In fact, the US and Europe have armed Pakistan and India with nukes and I wouldn't be surprised to see a nuke war going on but most of the so-called "left" would much rather treat India as an enemy and Pakistan as the "victim" when in fact India is a secular nation with fewer human rights violations compared to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc ... Keep doing that and no wonder the progressive/liberal folks are pushed into the losing column.
Actually Joe Dope is Carla in drag !!
Religious hatred and ignorance strike again.
Oh, when will humanity learn?
Pakistan's support, encouragement and arming of Kashmiri separatists for the last 20 years has begun to pay off huge dividends. Terror is an effective tool. The Pakistani generals and heads of its intelligence agencies are probably secretly bringing out the champagne bottles right now !!
If the attempt was to sow terror and create divisions amongst India's multi-religious and multi-ethnic communities, then this attack (one among many recently) has definitely succeeded. The BJP will come back to power without doubt and fundamentalist Hindus will once again go on a rampage and seek revenge. Its a testament to Indian tolerance that this hasnt happened so far but all it takes is a few determined individuals.
This is the work of the ISI.
The ISI wouldn't be thriving if it weren't for BIG GOVERNMENT. See, the CIA props them up at the cost of taxpayer money. GOVERNMENT THAT GOVERNS THE LEAST GOVERNS THE BEST !
Jason Jordan
Sandpoint, Idaho
And don't forget the CIA has empowered the ISI and still does.