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A Wink, A Nod and A Loss
ST. LOUIS, Missouri - In the aftermath and varying opinions of the overhyped debate between the Democratic and Republican candidates for vice presidents, two areas of consensus appear to emege: Sarah Palin didn't do anything TOO stupid and voters, the ones who still make the decisions on election day, feel Joe Biden won the night.
Republican vice presidential candidate Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin winks as she speaks during her vice presidential debate against Democratic vice presidential candidate Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., at Washington University in St. Louis, Mo., Thursday, Oct. 2, 2008. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite) Incredibly, Palin held her own by not debating: She announced
straight out that she would not answer the questions but would stick to
talking points. It was, perhaps, the only way she could stay out of
trouble but it showcased an inexperienced, inept candidate who has
trouble with facts and only a faint relationship with specifics.
She winked. She nodded. She grinned. She said "betcha." But she didn't debate.
In a format where clear winners are impossible unless one side or the others screws up big time or one side of the other scores a "knockout," neither Palin nor Biden emerged as the clear winner. Still, Palin did nothing to stem the doubts that remain about her ability to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency.
Writes Democratic political activist Bob Shrum:
Sarah Palin has experience being a runner-up -- which will come in handy in November. Tonight she barely kept up. In advance, the commenteriat almost unanimously agreed on a false measure of this debate. Judging by "expectation" meant that pundits could conceivably award a faux victory if she was half-coherent and modestly informed after a cram session in Arizona. But voters apply an absolute standard, not a low water mark of expectations: With America facing two wars and economic disaster, Americans ask if a candidate is up to the job.
By any rational assessment, Palin wasn't tonight -- and hasn't been any time she's not reading a teleprompter. President Palin-- the nuclear button, recession, the health care crisis, global warming (which she doesn't believe in, as she believes in creationism) -- well, it simply doesn't compute. A part in Fargo, yes -- that office in the West Wing, no.
Millions of Americans were watching Thursday night's vice-presidential debate waiting for a demolition derby moment - another crash by GOP running mate Sarah Palin, another serving of raw material for the writers at "Saturday Night Live."
By that standard, she got out alive, though there were white-knuckle moments along the way: questions that were answered with painfully obvious talking points that betrayed scant knowledge of the issue at hand, and sometimes little relevance to the question that had been asked.
But recent days have given John McCain's team little reason to suppose that not-that-bad is good enough. The Republican ticket's sliding polls and narrowing electoral map gave it a different imperative in her showdown against Joe Biden. That was to alter the trajectory of the race in a way reminiscent of how Palin first enlivened Republicans-it seems long ago now-when she joined the ticket in late August.
Absent new polling, there is little reason to think she cleared that bar in St. Louis.
To the contrary, it is hard to count any objective measures by which Biden did not clearly win the encounter. She looked like she was trying to get people to take her seriously. He looked like he was running for vice president. His answers were more responsive to the questions, far more detailed and less rhetorical.
Writes Dan Balz in The Washington Post:
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin spent much of the past two weeks on the defensive, hounded by critics over halting performances in television interviews and questioned even by conservative writers doubtful about whether she is ready to be vice president.
But the Palin who showed up for Thursday's debate against Democratic Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. was anything but defensive. In a fast-paced exchange about a range of domestic and foreign policy issues, she was the aggressive campaigner who in the first weeks of her candidacy had so energized the Republican faithful.
As a result, what was touted as a moment of truth for Palin instead turned into a lively and civil argument between the two vice presidential nominees over the policies and records of Sens. John McCain and Barack Obama. For 90 minutes, they sparred over Iraq and Afghanistan, energy and global warming, the economy and taxes, and which candidate would do more to protect the middle class.
One debate will not erase doubts that have been building about Palin's capacity to serve as vice president, but the effect of the encounter may shift the focus away from the sideshow that Palin has become and put it back on the two presidential nominees and what they would do for the country. Thursday's debate adds to the importance of the two remaining presidential debates, the first of which will be held Tuesday.
Palin produced at a moment McCain needed it most. In the past two weeks, his standing has deteriorated as the focus of national attention has shifted almost entirely to the economy. National and state polls show Obama gaining ground, and the preface to the debate Thursday was the news that McCain is pulling out of Michigan, once seen as a potential pickup.
Tom Shales of The Post was more pointed:
Sarah Palin looked as though she had prepared for her appearance at the vice presidential debate last night by studying Tina Fey's impressions of her on "Saturday Night Live." She twinkled and winked and piled on the perkiness, a "darn right" here and an "I'll betcha" there.
The challenge to Fey, who is scheduled to play the Alaska governor and Republican candidate again on the next "SNL" broadcast, will be to out-Palin Palin, to make the parody more outrageous than the original.
At the same time, Palin seemed determined to banish thoughts of her as airheaded and inexperienced; she was really debating her own public image rather than Sen. Joe Biden. She subverted the whole purpose of the exercise by merely repeating the key points of her running mate, Sen. John McCain, and ignoring questions that called for more specific answers.
A focus group for CBS and the viewer response line for CNN scored the debate for Biden and undecideds said they were leaning more towards the Obama-Biden ticket after watching the debate.
With the vice president sideshow over, the focus now switches back to the two principal candidates and their two remaining debates.
161 Comments so far
Show AllThe right wing media is twisting itself into a pretzel trying to find a way to make Palin's performance anything more than a dog & pony show. When she comes right out at the very beginning and says she's not going to answer any questions but will be happy to spout crammed and canned rhetoric, the show is already over and Biden's won.
Who in their right mind would think this pathetic excuse is ready to be president?
Watch the mainstream corporate media scramble and decide on a McCain comeback story as their "narrative" this next month. It's all so predictable. Can't they please just get out of the way of the news and let things just happen? And of course, to include Nader-Gonzalez, McKinney-Clemente and even Barr-Root despite my dislike of the last two.
Are any of these career politicians ready to lead? They have all been 'dog and pony shows' since Roosevelt. The republicans actually ran an actor, and he won. That alone should tell you presidential politics and campaigns are a sham. (What makes Palin stick out is that she is not a polished career politician so her sidestepping, say-nothing politico-lingo is not up to snuff yet. Perhaps more cramming and briefing? Maybe Ms. Fey should run?) It's not about qualifications anymore, but who will get the empty-headed Americans (those who claim Dem. or Rep.) to fall for the rhetoric and buy into the 'mainstream corporate media' campaign circus and go out and vote.
Those who don't vote are either lazy or waiting for someone to step up and make sense, show integrity, and intelligence and not just merely continue to plunder like both our great parties take turns doing after elections. When will we get a viable third party to represent reasonable, hardworking people who find this whole process shameful and insulting? Perhaps some of us bloggers and internet plebeians should step up and out from behind our keyboards and turn our written rants into action? A third party calls.
Sarah "scripted within an inch of her life" Palin - disagreed with 100%.
Joe Biden, more likable than I thought he would be, but disagreed with quite a bit.
Billions (or is it trillions?) of dollars of debt: out of control military spending, not enough on social programs, deregulation, buzz words, corporate centrist-conservative framework, lovefest for Israel, anti-gay marriage without recognition of need for separation of church and state, sales job/sales pitch rather than debate...
BOTH parties so hellbent on killing people all over the world: they never talk about the costs, the loss of lives, destroyed families, destabilized regions, nor the billions wasted on the carnage and imperial aggression.
Matt Gonzalez and Rosa Clemente would have shaken things up, created real debate, new ideas, progressive ideas...
Too bad Katie Kuric wasn't there to make sure that Sarah answered the question.
I bet Palin wants Couric sealed up in an igloo somewhere!
It's all irrelevant.
If McCain is announced the winner he will rule as a neo-conservative corporatist.
If Obama wins he will rule as a right-of-center corporatist.
Where was Rosa Clemente and Matt Gonzales?
My bet is the sheepish American public will respond to the "outsider" Palin with enthusiasm, especially in light of the problematic Obama's "possible muslim ties".
Face it folks, we're screwed! Corporate control is complete and unrelenting and worst of all, unchallenged by timid, frightened, and spoiled Americans.
Come visit me in Sweden when you need a lesson on social democracy that works for people, not Wall St........
.
I heard some lame-brain political analyst claim that because Palin's performance went much smoother than anticipated she proved.."She was ready to step in and be President".
Can you imagine getting paid to say something so incredibly stupid?
Can you imagine coming home and looking your family in the eye knowing this is how you financially support them?
Please visit this site and judge for yourself if "Sexy Sarah" was "wired":
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/what-does-gov-palin-have-in-h...
Also, did you note that during the debate she kept looking down at the podium..."listening"...maybe?
If the bailout passes today, then the voice of the people is lost forever. I can't waste anymore time or energy on yelling into the void when the ears that should be listening are wheeling, dealing, and counting their money.
"Crack open a cynic and you will find an angry idealist!"
"Crack open a cynic and you will find an angry idealist!"
Joe had a smaller flag lapel than Sarah did. Call it about even.
Is that what they think we want? They think we want another VP that will usurp power, overstep the bounds, and hide in the shadows? I'll say this, she's got balls. Maybe bigger ones than Cheney, if that's possible. She has obviously recently been schooled by that devil Addington. Sure, increase the power to the executive branch way beyond what is granted in the constitution, and then state that you won't answer questions but only give talking points, and that you won't make any appearances because the press would "filter" them. Wow, Cheney could learn from this broad.
I don't trust anyone who winks at me!!! It makes me think they are up to something shady!
"I don't trust anyone who winks at me!!! It makes me think they are up to something shady!'
As opposed to what? Bill Clinton looking straight into the camera and saying to the whole world
"I did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky"
Let's just face the facts folks Sarah Palin could have given the cure to cancer last night and "Progressives" would have found a reason to hate her.
Wow, 10 years later and you're STILL upset that Bill never let you tune his organ? That's really sad. You need to get over this thing, surely there's more fish in the sea than Bill Clinton.
It was just an example you loser. Or you just angry because Larry Craig didn't tap your foot while he was trolling?
You brought up Bubba Bill, not me. He's not the King of the Democratic Party, if you want the scoop. In fact, since he squandered his legacy by appointing himself lead attack dog for his wife, he's pretty much persona non grata within the party.
But here's a deal for you: I swear to you I will NOT vote for Bill Clinton this November.
Say "hello" to Larry Craig the next time you meet him in the john, but be careful not to talk with your mouth full.
.OUCH..but Im sure you meant it in the best possible way....please be nice to the special olympics competitors, they are trying their best.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
She came across,
"AS PHONY AS A THREE DOLLAR BILL!"
(LOL)
Progressives and Democrats Unite! Elect Obama!
Get a seat at the table.
Advance race relations.
Stop the fascists.
Bring back government regulations.
Tax the rich.
Advance diplomacy.
Make the world respect us again.
Invalidate Bush/Cheney.
Stop Palin.
Save the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
Get a sane Supreme Court.
Save the constitution.
Get your civil liberties back.
Close Guantanamo.
End the Iraq war.
Open government.
Save the unions.
Advance clean energy.
Save a women's right to choose.
Yeah!
One can always count on RichM's cynical analysis to put a damper on any hope for the future.
Get a seat at the table.---With a Democrat in the White House, Progressives will get a seat at the table. Not just the lobbyists like Bush...
Advance race relations.---Can't deny his election will do just that. Obviously.
Stop the fascists.---Read Naomi Wolf's book "The End of America" It's happening now and McPalin will continue it. Obama will stop the push.
Bring back government regulations.---Republicans are all about deregulation, and they ignore the ones on the books. Obama will return us to proper oversight, and may even repeal recent deregulation.
Tax the rich.---His tax plan will repeal the Bush tax cuts to the rich.
Advance diplomacy.---He wants to talk to "supposed enemies"
Make the world respect us again.---The world wants Obama; look at any poll.
Invalidate Bush/Cheney.---Electing McPalin will be a referendum on Bush/Cheney.
Stop Palin.---Duh.
Save the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.---Drill baby drill vs. $150 billion over 10 years to develop clean energy.
Get a sane Supreme Court.---Duh.
Save the constitution.---Bush/Cheney have done more to destroy our founding document than any duo in history.
Get your civil liberties back.---Obama was a constitutional law instructor.
Close Guantanamo.---Yep.
End the Iraq war.---He'll do it. It starts here.
Open government.---Obama is all about transparency and sunshine in government
Save the unions.---Ask any union who they support.
Advance clean energy.---See above.
Save a women's right to choose.---If you care.
Or, you can believe RichM's, no solution, gloom and doom scenario.
" Are Condi Rice, Colin Powell, or Clarence Thomas examples of meaningful advances in race relations?"
Not really, they were APPOINTED by racist republicans to curry favor with blacks. Obama will be ELECTED by the people. If you can't see a difference here---you're blind.
"Obama has only talked about a very limited phased withdrawal of COMBAT troops. That leaves all other kinds of troops in Iraq, along with 150,000 paramilitary "contractors."
Not "very limited". A withdrawal of all troops except those needed to protect our embassy. This could be a very small force. The 150,000 contractors are there to support the troops, and will leave when the troops leave. IF al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes... NO permanent bases!
Blah, blah, blah
I could go on but why bother... You will continue to spin the falsehoods and misrepresentations to make your points. If you can't see a difference---a real choice in the upcoming election---then you are blinded by your dogmatic adherence to silly DPA theories.
>Bring back government regulations
Which government regulations, exactly? Regulating the lending industry? Not likely.
http://thismodernworld.com/4222
Reining back so-called free-market ideology? Again, not likely.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080630/klein
I'm not saying don't vote for Obama/Biden. But when I hear or read nonsense like in the above post I have to think, either the individual is uninformed or has some investment in continuing the status quo.
.For a smart guy, madcow, you seem not to be paying attention to the words of those members of your own party. I would not attempt to add anything to RichM's eloquent and accurate appraisal other than this. To continue to support the Democratic Party after these eight years of inaction and complicity, to continue to support Obama's candidacy after his reversal of position after winning the nomination is simply to continue to contribute to a horrific status quo. Seat at the table, get real.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee the attack vole sez:
"I would not attempt to add anything to RichM's eloquent and accurate appraisal..."
What, did 'Err-oll the Bottom' call in sick?
Baby you're a RichM
Please get off your low-fact diet. It's making you delusional.
"What do you think it means, that Obama supports the Wall St bailout? That he supports the WoT?"
It means the dude is trying to get elected....
She didn't do too badly considering the last 8 years and McCain's positions. She's already better speaker than Dubya and not as scary looking as Cheney.
In the sense that "debates" have become nothing more than photo-ops and stop-overs for razzle-dazzle, you're absolutely right. Which is sad. The only way she would have been declared a loser by the MSM is if she would have attacked Biden with a hocky-stick while shouting racist rants. Other than that, all she had to do was stand up straight, look into the camera and let the bullshit flow.
rosie2731
"She's already better speaker than Dubya and not as scary looking as Cheney."
Except that I don't think I can take four (to say nothing of eight!) more years of "nucular"!
Rosie231
Lemmings are also all about moving forward.
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
My favorite Palin moment was when she said, "Say it ain't so, Joe." She had to find a way to get that one in for all the sportsfans out there.
I liked the clean, quick, straight-faced "Obiden" jab... other than that... uh, no... same sorry, pathetic, unqualified "candidate(s)".
and don't forget that her target audience did not include a single soul who has ever logged in to this website. she's shooting for moderates.
Too bad she ain't winning over any moderates. Half the time, she never answered the question presented to her and often times went off topic. If you did that in a job interview, you would never be employed. Why should politicians get an "easy pass"?
I decided quite soon after she was chosen that to me she looked like Bush squared. She is even more ignorant and empty-headed than Bush, much more of a true Christian nutcase than he is, and much more "of the people" and charming and likable than he ever was. And so that could make her a better campaigner than Bush and an even better puppet, if McCain does not decide to dispose of her, i.e. force her to resign for any of a number of concocted reasons, after the election.
I felt like I was watching a kind of charming Barbie Doll last night. She kept flirting with the audience with her winks and her wide eyed exclamations. She clearly disassociated a number of times, and babbled meaningless response to questions she couldn't answer. She changed the subject a number of times, and responded to questions with answers that stayed on the surface, demonstrating a shallow understanding of the issues, at best.
I'm sure the republicans see this as a win, which shows how shallow THEIR engagement is with the issues...all ideology, no real meaning.
I saw her performance...
She didn't mop the floor with Biden but she certainly performed well...
She was one of "us"...I liked the way she used the term "we"...
Biden looked like what he was...a beltway insider and she looked like a modern woman ready to take charge and make some real change....
I hardly call her performance a loss...I doubt they'll pull ahead in the polls by monday but I bet its tied again
You're a sad little person, aren't you? Almost any real "modern woman" would vomit on your head if you compared them to Palin.
Do you mean "Modern" in the Neanderathal vs. Cro-Magnon sense?
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
.Well of course you do, Wolfie. You like your women unable to answer any intelligent and in depth question..One of you, huh, fundamentalist, against a woman's right to choose, pro NUCULAR threats, pro war, global warming is god's work and we cant mess with that you betcha.
There is this new horror film being shot, see President McCain dies and Palin is sworn in as President......Costa Rica sounds better and better.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
You have to admit Sarah exceeded expectations. I thought she came across as naive and used persiflage when asked questions she did not want to answer, but having said that,from my perspective, she looked a lot more genuine than Biden. The big problem: they are both corporate soldiers and this debate just confirmed it. Vote third party.
Pathological Palin is perfect.
America loves stupid.
If she and insane McCain are elected it will hasten the fall of a bankrupt bogus empire of greed and cruelty !
"America this is quite serious"
Ok folks – here’s my take (Letterman – eat your heart out – better yet call me. You could use some new writers)
Why this liberal has changed her mind and will now vote for Palin/McCain!
1 - Sarah's flag pin was 4.76 times larger than Senator Biden's (I mean Joe's), clearly showing her patriotism is greater.
2 - She boldly walked right out there and said "Can I call you Joe?" VERY helpful to "Joe Six Pack" who didn't realize he wasn't watching "My Name is Earl."
3 - The little daughter stumbling around the stage carrying that baby boy - some may say that was irresponsible. NOT ME! I say - that little Palin daughter will be pregnant by age 16 and needs to learn to carry a baby!
4 - The constant "winking" - Sarah's secret message to America "Don't listen to what I'm saying - but WATCH what we pull over on you come January 2009!" Wink wink!
5 - She looked great - she really slimmed down for the debates. Let's face it, she was FAT at the convention and no one wants to see a fat woman. Secret to last night's slimming appearance? Cindy McCain's diet vitamins.
6 - Palin's use of "betcha" and "ya" throughout the night. Don't be critical! She's playing to the dumbing of America and hey - it worked the last eight years didn't it? GOTCHA!
Juliann
Beautiful list. You've convinced me to vote Republican. I guess if you're part of the Republican base, this is the criteria you go by.
hi Juliann,
Oh goodness, I just know you are kidding, right ?
Please say 'YES' -- this has got to be a joke.
No true Liberal would vote for McCain / Palin.
Awaiting your reply -- please.
Winking?? I thought she had developed a facial tick.
Do you REALLY trust a polititian that winks at you?
"The USA Does Not Torture...(wink)"
"The US Economic Fundementals are sound...(wink, wink)"
"Read my Lips, No New Taxes!....(wink, wink, nudge, nudge)"
I tried to listen to her incoherent "talking points"...she did not seem to finish any one sentence, running them all together with well rehearsed talking points, mashing them all together, and not making a damn bit of sense.
She didn't listen to the questions, did not provide any answers, and generally showed her complete contempt for the entire process, which is a reflection of her style of management, should, god forbid, be be given an higher office then she already holds.
And why should she listen to anyone? Shje is on a mission from God, and has been made "witch-proof" from her own private witch doctor.
Someone PLEASE show this snow-bunny bimbo the door, along with her old sugar daddy McLame.
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John KeatsW
Speaking of winks you forgot the best ones:
I'm bill Clinton and I support barack obama.......(wink wink)
I'm Hillary Clinton and I support barack obama....(wink wink)