A Debate On Iraq Benefits Obama
A blistering economic crisis may be the all-encompassing issue of the moment.
But the war in Iraq still defines the difference between John McCain and Barack Obama.
McCain remains the true believer in that occupation, the man who really does want to carry it forward until some ill-defined "victory" is obtained - even if that takes a hundred years.
Obama remains the doubter who -- as he went out of his way to note in Friday night's first debate between the two men who would be president -- spoke out against launching the war six years ago and remains committed to drawing it down.
These were the bottom lines of a debate that could have been all about economics but that ultimately ended up being a very serious, and at times very edgy, discourse about war and peace.
McCain called Iraq "the central issue of our time."
At the very least, it was the central issue of the debate.
The Republican said his Democratic rival "just doesn't understand" the importance of staying the course in the Middle East.
Obama argued that McCain lacks "the broader strategic vision" necessary to make the United States a functional player on the global stage - and at home. And he suggested that the Republican's misread of the Iraq question all the way back in 2002, as well as McCain's ongoing refusal to recognize his error, confirmed his opponent's deficiency.
"The fundamental question is whether we should have gone into Iraq in the first place," Obama declared.
"If the question is who is the best equipped as the next president to make good decisions about how we use our military," the Democrat continued, "then I think we can take a look at our judgment."
McCain, who constantly tried to suggest that Obama was naïve, argued that, "The next president of the United States will not have to address the issue of whether or not we should have gone into Iraq."
"The issue is when we leave and how we leave," said the Republican.
McCain was right about that, as was evidenced by a poignant clash between the candidates over the meaning of the bracelets they wear to honor soldiers killed in the conflict.
McCain said he wore a memorial bracelet - given to him by the mother of a soldier in New Hampshire -- to remind himself that deaths would be in vain if the war was not seen through to "victory."
Rejecting the notion that any soldier's death should be seen as having been in vain, Obama said he wore a memorial bracelet - given to him by the mother of a soldier in Wisconsin - to remind himself of the need to bring the conflict to a rapid conclusion in order to save more mothers from having to bury their sons and daughters.
McCain and Obama did not disagree on every international issue. Both men offered indications that they buy into much of the current consensus in Washington with regard to foreign policy -- a consensus that agrees on bloated defense budgets and over-the-top rhetoric especially with regard to the conflict between Israel and Palestine.
But rarely in modern years has a presidential debate exposed so many clear distinctions on global concerns - about Iraq, Iran and the value of diplomacy - and this is what made Friday night's clash memorable.
Not to mention surprising.
Debate moderator Jim Lehrer opened the first of three debates between the two contenders with a little bit of lip service to the agreed-upon area of discussion: foreign policy. But the moderator acknowledged that they met at the close of a week of wrangling over failed banks and bailouts with a declaration that any discussion of international affairs in a moment of domestic economic turmoil "by definition includes the global financial crisis."
Lehrer really did try to get an economic debate going.
More than a half hour passed before anyone mentioned Iraq or Afghanistan.
The discussion turned to infrastructure renewal and extending access to the internet before it did to China, Russia, India, Georgia, Israel, Palestine or other global hotspot.
Again and again, Lehrer steered the discussion to the financial crisis.
That was appropriate.
But Lehrer didn't have much luck getting either McCain or Obama to scope out visions for domestic economic regeneration, let alone the interplay of the U.S. economy and that of the world.
The moderator tried, repeatedly, to get the candidates to identify ways in which the economic crisis was going to influence how they would govern. But the candidates kept dancing around the questions. McCain was against "unnecessary and wasteful spending." Obama told McCain that "your president" (George Bush) had presided over "an orgy of spending" that, he noted, the Republican nominee has usually supported.
McCain toyed openly with the notion of a spending freeze but, when pressed, refused to formally propose one. Obama acknowledged that the cost of a Wall Street bailout might make it tougher to launch new domestic initiatives, but as Lehrer noted the senator from Illinois did not seem to be willing to abandon any of those initiatives.
Finally, 33 minutes into the discourse, Obama suggested that he would be more inclined to steers some funds be out of Iraq and back toward the U.S.
Obama only devoted a few seconds to the notion before steering back to the domestic debate, however.
It was not until almost half way into the debate that Lehrer actually asked the "Iraq" question.
Then, finally, the candidates diverged.
Recalling his own opposition to the war, Obama rapped McCain for getting everything about the run-up to the war wrong.
"At the time when the war started, you said it was quick and easy. You said we knew where the weapons of mass destruction were," said Obama. "You were wrong. You said that we were going to be greeted as liberators. You were wrong."
McCain said Obama is getting it wrong now. "Senator Obama refuses to acknowledge that we are winning in Iraq," announced McCain.
"That's not true, that's not true," countered Obama.
Repeatedly, the candidates clashed.
And they clearly did disagree.
John McCain debated as the man who wanted this war six years ago and who wants it to continue even now.
Barack Obama debated as the man who won the Democratic nomination in large part because he had the wisdom to oppose launching an unnecessary preemptive war, and who scored points throughout the primary fight by promising to renew America's commitment to diplomacy.
The two men were speaking to a country that is rightly worried about a stumbling economy.
But the country worries, as well, about foreign-policy stumbles.
And the invasion and occupation of Iraq remains the worst of those stumbles in recent American history.
There will be plenty of spin about what was said in the first presidential debate.
But the focus on the war in Iraq, a war that most Americans think was a mistake and want to see finished, means that -- while the night saw no knockout blows -- it was Obama who got the debate he wanted and needed.
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22 Comments so far
Show AllThe other point to remember is that the so called "surge" (or increase in troop numbers) that McCain has pinned his reputation and status as a "warrior" upon, most likely had very little to do with the relatively decreased violence in Iraq..
Satellite photos apparently indicate that the Sunni areas of Baghdad are largely depopulated, (their previous residents killed, ejected and dispersed??)..
When there is nobody left to "ethnically cleanse", then some part of the violence will obviously decrease..
Three glaring problems with this debate..
1) Both candidates made particular mention of how important is that pissy little trouble making country, Israel..
Mccain went much further, repeating the grotesquely inaccurate and dangerously irresponsible lies..
2) About Ahmadinejad talking of "wiping Israel from the map" and..
3) Iran seeking to weaponise their nuclear programme. Obviously McCain doesn't think the CIA and NIE reports comprehensively refuting this are worth considering...
Shades of the criminality over Iraq all over again..
These are utterly shameful lies as we all know. How then could this senile old fossil think he could get away with it?? Hopefully this will show him up for what he is..
But..
Why did Obama not correct him??
John McCain is angry because John McCain is entitled to be President; it’s his turn. These whippersnappers with their new fangled ideas need to be run out of town.
Rest assured we'll be out of Iraq and Afghanistan sooner than we think. And then peace-keeping forces will be needed here after our country crumbles to keep the rightwingnuts from killing/ethnic cleansing all those who don't believe in Jesus and the sanctity of the fetus.
John Nichols
-what is a DPA?
...and at times very edgy, discourse about war and peace.
-not true, neither candidate is offering peace. This is a DPA attempt at obfuscation and an attempt to present Obama as the antiwar candidate, which is a lie.
McCain remains the true believer in that occupation,
-Obama hasn't said he is taking ALL the troops out. He will leave an unspecified number there to guard "our" oil and carry out attacks on "al Qaeda". The number of troops required for that could be many tens of thousands. That sounds like an occupation doesn't it?
McCain called Iraq "the central issue of our time.
-Obama believes the central front on the GWOT is Afghanistan
"If the question is who is the best equipped as the next president to make good decisions about how we use our military," the Democrat continued, "then I think we can take a look at our judgment."
-Obama's argument is that he would prosecute the wars/occupations more efficiently and ruthlessly, not that we shouldn't be fighting them. Obama isn't talking about peace.
The Republican said his Democratic rival "just doesn't understand" the importance of staying the course in the Middle East.
-I think McCain is an idiot and a warmonger.
[Obama}...spoke out against launching the war six years ago and remains committed to drawing it down.
-this gets negated by his record of funding it. Only a sap would buy that argument; that Obama is an antiwar candidate. If he were opposed to war than he shouldn't have voted to keep it going.
Obama rapped McCain for getting everything about the run-up to the war wrong
-sure McCain got it wrong, but how's Obama repeatedly voting to fund it getting it right?
McCain said Obama is getting it wrong now. "Senator Obama refuses to acknowledge that we are winning in Iraq,"
-this is proof that McCain is a moron
Barack Obama debated as the man who won the Democratic nomination in large part because he had the wisdom to oppose launching an unnecessary preemptive war,
-again this is a shameless DPA lie. When was the last time Obama called for an end to all the wars not just the shifting of some troops from Iraq to Afghanistan? To ask the question is to answer it. He used that almost decade-old speech to posture as an "antiwar" candidate and repeatedly attack Hillary for her vote to authorize it during the primaries. But as soon as he secured the nomination to tacked so hard to the right that his position today is virtually identical to McSames.
The two men were speaking...
-yes, one big corporate-sponsored, duopolistic and Dweedldistic debate indeed! One in which only the status quo, establishment candidates that have been vetted by the powers that be are allowed to talk and one in which the establishment picks the questions. What a sham!
"Even though the war be wrong, we are in it", in effect.
As Mark Twain said of a similar situation in the Phillipines a century ago, not even a burglar could have put that better.
Maverick? A fast talkin', gunslingin, gamblin' con-man with an appetite for cheap booze an' younger compliant wimmen. Good character for a movie, wrong characteristics for a President.
Hey z, Spot on. Thanks for the reminder.
Question to Mr. Obama- If it was wrong to go into Iraq in the first place, why is it necessary to 'win' now? Wouldn't the correct response be to withdraw, not bill the Iraqi people for our destruction of their country, and in fact spend 100 billion dollars to rebuild the infrastructure (instead of an Embassy Castle and various military installations? A person of integrity would issue a formal apology. Imagine the payback of that act. It would be a start in the war against terrorism, stopping our acts of terror at least.
And as long as we don't have to talk about the injustice that the State of Israel commits against the Palestinian people, we don't have to get our shoe's dirty.
I know something that wasn't mentioned. Ralph Nader. Is dragging Nader's name into every article really necessary? Yes. The American people might hear some real solutions to the financial situation and the war. But the republicans and democrats don't want the American people to hear that. It might upset their corporate agenda.
This was not a presidential debate, and neither candidate is worthy of presidency of a country that truly valued peace, justice, and law. That is why they can win in the United States.
Ok, someone else (Z) gave an answer to my question (which really wasn't a question).
He never said that the war was wrong. Just that is was dumb. Implying that we still had to take Saddam out, and punish the people of Iraq.
And it is no mistake when he said in the debate that he wanted to 'win' in Iraq.
By the way, our attack occurred shortly after Saddam changed trading Iraqi oil from dollar to Euros. Which is what Iran has suggested doing recently.
www.NotOneMore.US
"he had the wisdom to oppose launching an unnecessary preemptive war,"
In 2003, before serving in the Senate, he opposed the war as "dumb" and "strategic mistake", but not as "illegal".
In 2004, he said, ""There's not much of a difference between my position on Iraq and George Bush's position at this stage."
In his own words from 2007, "it was important, I think, for me and others who opposed the war to hope for the best possible outcome in Iraq. You know, I’ve never rooted against success in Iraq, I’ve just been skeptical that this was the right approach for us to take."
Since the war is not "illegal" or "immoral" by merely "bad strategy", he still hopes we can be "successful" in our invasion and occupation. For those who think I'm spitting hairs, imagine someone opposing Hitler's invasion of Russia while still hoping it's successful. Obviously, their opposition would mean very little.
When Sen. Obama appeared on Meet the Press in 2007, while talking about how he would have voted on the '02 authorization, Mr. Russert flashed a quote from then-State Senator Obama on the screen that said: "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know."
In response, Senator Obama said "it probably was the wrong time for me to be making a strong case against our party’s nominees’ decisions when it came to Iraq."
Why does the Nation condescend to it's readers? It's insulting.
Yes, their rhetoric is a mile apart, but what is the difference between their Iraq policy? Nothing.
Can anyone actually say what the specific differences are in their re-deployment plans?
It appears a person can't get elected president in the United States unless they are warmongers and unless they grovel to AIPAC and to their Zionist masters.
Why is McInsane considered a "war hero" when all he did was drop bombs on innocent civilians in Vietnam, a country that was absolutely no threat?? That sounds like he's a war criminal instead. So he got captured by the "gooks" as he calls them and held prisoner; so what? He killed untold numbers of helpless civilians; spending 5 years in prison was nothing for a mass murderer like him.
McMansions showed how petty and arrogant he is during the debate when he would not acknowledge Obama and look at him.
""Finally, 33 minutes into the discourse, Obama suggested that he would be more inclined to steers some funds be out of Iraq and back toward the U.S." [?]
_________________________________________
Somebody needs an editor. Meow!" LB
Good point Little brother. I only managed to hear a sound bite about the Iranian Prime Ministers threat to "wipe Israel off the map" and the name Kissinger given in support of McCain's views of further madness. I don't have a TV so was spared the free advertisements given by these two crooks.
"Finally, 33 minutes into the discourse, Obama suggested that he would be more inclined to steers some funds be out of Iraq and back toward the U.S." [?]
_________________________________________
Somebody needs an editor. Meow!
Otherwise, those wedded to the superficial horse-race pseudo-analysis so beloved and promoted by the corporate media and self-proclaimed "pragmatists" may be correct in their judgement that Obama won this lap.
But if Obama was required to debate candidates who AREN'T senescent monsters, Obama's exceptionalist, militarist stances-- from his championing a "good" war in Afghanistan to echoing the reprehensible claim that Iraq literally "owes" Amerika for the expenses of our criminal, imperialist war of aggression and subsequent occupation-- would be exposed in all of their chauvinistic wrong-headedness.
It's not an accident that the "opposing" parties in the Amerikan duopoly collude to exclude non-anointed candidates from the infotainment beauty-contests masquerading as "debates", and expend resources to quash their candidacies.
Obama is wrong to keep mentioning the $79 billion surplus that Iraq has. We destroy their country and they have to pay to fix it? Come on Obama---that's nothing but pandering. You won't be getting many progressive votes with ideas like that.
“Lastly, I thought McCain looked like a grumpy old contemptuous old man - I think in this political environment his demeanor will be not be well-received with voters.”- mcgumbleton said: September 26, 2008 11:14 PM
McCain looked like a scowling dog. If Obama weren't trying so hard to sound like a Republican he would be up 20 points instead of almost dead even.
I thought he looked like he was high on amphetamines. Sharper than normal, less hunched over, licking his lips a lot and clenching his teeth. All signs.
They both came off as war-mongers to me, just to different degrees.
ding!
Obama said "The fundamental question is whether we should have gone into Iraq in the first place". The answer is "NO! It was all based on lies". Having answered that question we need to END THE WAR and get the hell out of the two soverign nations we have attacked and are now occupying.
There can not be much "spin on what was said in the first Presidential debate" because the two said the same thing. Keep the wars going and extend them. Give the Wall street gambolers 700 billion dollars and cut all of our domestic programs because of the expense of the wars, the bail out and the collapse of our economic system.
No mention was made of the loss of our civil rights and the deletion of whole sections of our Constitution. Take a look at our Declaration of Independence. It says that when a government is not providing for Safety and Happiness, it is the right of the people to alter or to abloish it. That's were we are folks.
We need to abolish our current government. Most peacefull way to do that would be to not vote for either of the two corporate candidates and not to vote for anyone in the government now. The new President and Congress could call for a Constitutional Convention. And in our new Constitution there shall be no way for a corporation to declare that it has the rights and protections of the Constitution by declaring corporate personhood.
Let's create a true democracy and establish a government to allow us our unalianable right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We need to realize that having a lot of money is not happiness. Let's get in competition with Norway for a government that has happy and contented citizens.