Subscribe to Common Dreams News Updates
Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
US Deserter Feared Torture Orders
Arabic-speaking soldier may prompt Canada to wade into legal debate
Peter Jemley is unique among the growing ranks of war resisters who have sought refuge in Canada.
Peter Jemley fled the U.S. military after concluding his training was leading him to a possible torture role. Sept. 3, 2008. (ASHLEY HUTCHESON/TORONTO STAR) For one thing, he's old by military standards. The only reason the army considered the 38-year-old recruit three years ago was because the age cap had been raised to fill the U.S. military's growing void.
The Tacoma, Wash., father of two young children also bucks the soldier stereotype. Jemley is a college history major, both quiet and fervently independent. If describing a bad situation he's likely to say it "sucked," then apologize for his profanity.
Now Jemley's reasons for deserting set him apart too, and make his case a historic first.
He wants Canada to accept him as a refugee because he's opposed to torture.
Jemley argues that as one of only a small number of Arabic linguists with top security clearance, he could be forced to violate international law by participating in the interrogations of terrorism suspects. It was something he hadn't considered when he enlisted in 2005 and was handpicked to undergo two years of intense training due to his adeptness with languages.
Only last February did he discover that his government had sanctioned new rules on how terrorism suspects could be interrogated. He believes it's torture and when he realized he might be asked to be a part of it, he fled.
"It's a soldier's obligation to say `no' if their commander is doing things that are criminally complicit," Jemley, now 42, said in a recent interview in Toronto. "I think everyone is agreeing now that torture is really what has been going on ... I have every reason to believe that from my small pool that I belong to, with my credentials, that I'd be ordered to do such things."
`Torture' has become a much-debated word with profound legal implications since the 9/11 attacks and the U.S. administration's decision to re-write the laws of war.
Detainees held at Guantanamo Bay and the undisclosed CIA prisons around the world have claimed widespread abuse. The CIA has admitted to using `coercive techniques' during interrogations, such as waterboarding, a process whereby agents simulate drownings.
Much of the legal community considers this treatment torture and point to international laws such as the Geneva Conventions, which were established after WWII to impose legal restrictions on the barbarity of war.
Canada so far has largely been able to sidestep the debate about torture and the Bush administration's post-9/11 policies. Other cases of deserters in Canada have focused on the larger question of the legality of the Iraq war. About a dozen cases are working their way through the refugee board and courts with varying legal arguments and one deserter has already been deported back to face a court martial.
The issue of Guantanamo's legality arose earlier this year in the Supreme Court case concerning Canadian detainee Omar Khadr. The high court justices ruled that Canadian agents had acted illegally by interrogating the Toronto teenager in 2003 and 2004. But the high court relied on a U.S. Supreme Court decision that deemed Guantanamo illegal, rather than debating issues of torture and indefinite detention specifically.
Jemley's case is the first to deal with the issue directly. The CIA has admitted it uses acts such as waterboarding. There's evidence that Guantanamo detainees were subjected to programs such as sleep deprivation, intimidation with dogs and sexual humiliation. If these tactics are torture, thereby violating international law, Jemley argues he could be prosecuted for war crimes if he participates.
Canada must decide whether the U.S. administration has sanctioned torture in deciding his case, his lawyer says.
"There are specific rules for soldiers and the basic idea is nobody should participate in torture, ever," said Jemley's lawyer Jeffrey House. "Nobody should associate themselves with torture or violations of the Geneva Conventions because if we start to wink at violations of the Geneva Conventions they're no longer law, they're just guidelines."
Calls to Jemley's commander at the 341st Military Intelligence Battalion at Camp Murray, Tacoma, were not returned this week. But a letter of "unexcused absence" emailed to Jemley from Maj. Brian Bodenman outlined what penalties he could face if he failed to show up to training by yesterday's deadline.
Punishment includes a court martial with possibility of jail time or a discharge and transfer to "inactive ready reserve." The latter means Jemley could still be called to duty for a period of five years.
"To me it's like being an indentured servant. You can't leave, and you can't give your skills back," Jemley said.
Since the U.S. invaded Iraq in March 2003, there is no accurate account of how many deserters have fled to Canada - best guess is a couple hundred, with many remaining underground having not filed a refugee claim.
Comparisons are often made to the Vietnam War when thousands came to Canada. But during Vietnam there was a draft, and Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government has little sympathy for today's deserters.
Jemley's decision to join the army was not one he took lightly, nor one borne of patriotic duty. "It wasn't a political decision. I didn't really like the Bush administration any more then, than I do now, but Iraqis are people too and I'm not afraid of doing difficult things. So I thought I could help," Jemley said.
After scoring extremely high on the army's Defense Language Aptitude Battery test he was asked if he'd become a linguist and was sent to the Army's language school in Monterey, Calif., for two years. Upon graduation, he spent a brief stint at the secretive National Security Agency, the U.S. government's electronic eavesdropping agency, and then sought independent contracts where he could work until his unit was deployed.
In February, he signed a lucrative contract with Washington's Office of Military Commissions, the legal arm of the Guantanamo trials that is prosecuting a couple dozen detainees, including Khadr. It was when Jemley started doing his own research into the Guantanamo cases that he came up with media reports about the waterboarding of suspects. When he was asked to sign an addendum to his OMC contract, which added that he must be available to be on-call for "other language related assignments," he refused and was fired.
A second contract offered him work in unspecified locations with "the agency" based in northern Virginia. No one would confirm it was the CIA and when he couldn't get answers about what he'd be doing he turned down the job.
By then he knew he was trapped. These were positions he could refuse, but if he was ordered to duty he couldn't say no.
"I did everything I was supposed to. I'm not afraid to be deployed. I'm not afraid to die," Jemley said.
"(But) I'm ashamed about what's going on."
His wife Sarah and children aged 8 and 3 have remained in Tacoma until Sarah can finish her master's nursing degree. They hate the separation but Jemley says he's confident in his decision.
"I know it sounds glib but I mean it. If one less person gets tortured then it'll all be worth it."
- Posted in
75 Comments so far
Show AllNote well the patriot.
As a retired military officer, I can assure you that there is NO requirement to obey an illegal order. The order to torture captives is illegal. Those in the CIA, US military, and in the various contractors who tortured captives KNEW at the time that it was wrong and illegal. The evil Republicans who support the torture of captives late in the 2006 session of Congress passed law to make these criminals who tortured captives beyond punishment. Is this not some sort of ex post facto law??
Only when these who tortured captives, and those above them who sanctioned this torture, are brought to justice will this nation recover its former moral position in the world. The very SAME logic used to kill Nazis after the Nuremberg trials must be now applied to Bush and the evil NeoCons. Without that, we are DOOMED.
R.M.O. Bywee: I guess it's a Reverse Polish Ex Post Facto Law. It made illegal orders legal after the fact, such that anyone who refused to obey what was an illegal order before the law was passed was guilty of refusing to obey a legal order after the law was passed, as to the same order. IE, those who refused to obey an order which was illegal before the new law were thereby legislatively determined to be guilty of refusing an order made legal after the fact by the new law.
I'll bet the wise snowwolf can't understand that, but I hope you do. Last I knew officers could read with understanding.
Then there's the case of Allyson Peterson, who died of a non-combat gunshot after refusing to participate in torture. Some said suicide, others have found more sinister implications.
ex post facto laws are legal laws then made illegal thereby person committing act will be arrested unkowing in any manner the laws were criminalized. PDD written yet not made public until 20 July 2007 wherein the MURDERER redefined CAT3 under Geneva, U.S.C. 18 Section 2441, has the amended Anti-Torture under our Constitution and Federal Law okey dokey, according to what the MURDERER states in the amended code (too funny were it not such an atrocity)that our Constitution and it(him, the person) were better able to make much stronger law in defining Torture and how egregious it is and , why by golly thanks but we in the good ol' US of A got it covered. Of course this was not the way it was written into ?law? but am on a cell and do not have exact sections, subsections and CAT3 and 4 in front of me, MURDERER, filth and I despise you and you will Texas two step into the damn sunset, won't you the deviant that you are, okay I am stopping before I am moderated.
BillofRights
It takes zero courage to kill and/or torture. There is only one requirement to kill and torture - a lack of human decency.
As a Retired Enlisted Member I concure with biwee's assessment of Illegal Orders...they are NOT to be obeyed
However I also notice none of these Conscientious Deserters (for want of a better term) seem able to produce Names, Places, and Dates where these incidents occurred
isn't that odd
Because it happened when CinC got the law changed so that what had been previously illegal was made legal, in this case. Maybe some of the others were not in a position to deal his way with the changed definition of legal order.
Thank you, thank you, and thank you!!
Peter Jemley has understood our history and Tom Paine would be delighted that we still have thinking folks who understand our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Yes, a true patriot and I truly hope we too will have the inner strength to do what is right and what is necessary to save our humanity. Is not about political sides, it is where your thinking and heart meets for a better world. Common sense lives...
Thank you, all folks of truth and compassion.
Remember Alyssa Peterson
Snowwolf;
He's not on trial yet, moreover for him to give names, places and dates outside of a trial might be violating the official secrets act that the states is sure to have. He's given enough information for the tale to be credible. He's courageous enough to say no, some might argue that he should have stayed in the states and when actually ordered to torture - disobey then.
That's the tricky bit. In spite of the training, he might never have had an occasion to use it. If that is, or would have been, the case then he had no right to desert.
From my POV as a former sailor, he had no right to desert at all. He did join, he did get paid and trained, he did have other options. Certainly exercising the option to disobey an order is one that might have you spend time in jail. Then again, M. Ali - the boxer - earned more respect from people by going to jail than did any of the other draft refuseniks did by going to Canada.
I really wanted to disagree with you. But then I thought it over a bit and I realize you may be right. But, given that the MSM only covers the deserters, we never hear of any soldiers who stay to fight the illegal orders. So would that then be an empty gesture, given the near certainty that an anonymous, faceless grunt going to jail for refusing to obey an illegal order would be completely lost in the shuffle? Or quietly and honorably discharged with no chance to make a statement?
It's a fine line.
A nasty line, I want to disagree with my own opinion.
You are quite right in saying that it'd likely be an empty gesture, the media wouldn't be specific about the trial - if any- nor would the state allow the defence of disobeying an unlawful order to be made public due to state secrets.
In a way it's better that he went to canada to draw attention to the issue. I'm sure it'll be a factor in the Canadian election called for this october, idiot pm decided to break his own fixed date election law and called one early.
Very true indeed. The military can always cook up some innuendo regarding the circumstances of any discharge.
I don't know but perhaps you might drop Matthis Chiroux a line because that is exactly what he did when he was Stop Lossed to deploy to Iraq and he refused because it is an Illegal Invasion of a Sovereign Nation of which we now are their Occupiers. He's in the District at the IVAW house, go to www.ivaw.org, it will list his email and that if others like him, RESISTER'S, not draft dodgers, not a War, illegal occupation, not a surge, an escalation of Troops, okay? USAF Honorably Discharged Disabled Vet Fall of Saigon days, mom, and am saying NO WAR NO WHERE NO MORE, NO!! !
BillofRights
If just ONE of these Guys came up with a Name, a date and Place, certain Members of Congress would LOVE to see the Army jumping through its Asshole trying to investigate it....
I say these Guys are full of Shit...
If I was given an order like that not only would I disobey it but I would make sure every reporter in the theatre of operations knew about it...I wouldn't desert...I'd be the one in the right
The New York Times devoted 65 front page covers to Abu Ghraib...how many do you think they'd devote to Official Torture Orders? 165?...265?...
This would be Pulitzer prize material if true...why didn't the Journalist ask "Who told you to do this"?
Did they ask the soldiers at Abu Ghraib 'who ordered you to do this?' No, they did not. Bush ordered that behaviour, and he has gotten away with it. The members of congress are not going to be seen as being soft on 'terrorism suspects', they -unlike bush - have to worry about reelection.
That is pure Dumbass...
The problem was nobody was Supervising The Guards at Abu Ghraib...The "General" in Charge (Janis Capinsky ...a Clinton appointee who's major qualification for Command was that she didn't have a Penis...but hey...gotta have those diversity quota's) never even left her tent the whole time she was over there...THAT is well documented...so read it and weep
then the best which can be said of her is that she was in dereliction of duty causing grievous damage. I thought being responsible was a basic. Now, instead, we have "Plausible Deniability". "I was only faking it" is not a defense unless you're of a certain rank?
Her orders came from bush. He ordered the torture of suspects and prisoners in us custody. Both in Abu Ghraib and in Guano Bay. I'm surprised that a rightwinger like yourself isn't chearing the torture of those who were accused of 'hating' the usa. The guards were supervised. They did what they were told to do.
Sure, until they legislated what was illegal into being legal. Remember Alyssa Peterson, you can google the name.
When they added on that he would perform 'other language related duties' in the context of Gitmo, he knew that, in his judgment, he's be given what he felt were illegal orders. Better he does what he has to do then than wait until his indecision puts other soldiers at risk, or he dies of a non-combat inflicted gunshot. The only other alternative is to obey an illegal order.
What good does it do to provide names, places, dates, or crimes? When most before any who should come forth have seen a government punish only those that come forth. There have been countless crimes brought up, only to be ignored by MSM and government. And the few that have been forced out, only lower ranked personal have been punished. Even when there's a trail leading to high ranking officers. Remember, when it came to the pictures, the grunts went to jail, the rest was swept under the rug. Its kind of hard for those stuck over there to fight illegal acts, when most of those around them are engaged in a reality video game. You have a generation of kids over there that grew up playing brutal video games. They all thought it would be cool to do it live. And now you wonder why so many come back scared for life. It amazes me how anyone could even ask this question after so much time has past with a government that has shown its true intent.
Why did he join in the first place? The military is not a democracy but a killing machine run as a totalitarian dictatorship.
An ignorant kid enlists for economic or misguided reasons, but Jemley is well educated and should have known better than to enlist and become a pawn of conservative chickenhawks.
read the story...he was 38...I'd HOPE he knew what he was doing...when I was 38 I'd been in almost 20 years
He'd been in for 3 years, during the Bush/Cheney neocon chickenhawk regime. Speaks volumes as to why he joined.
To his credit, few change their minds once military brainwashed. That he did so because he wanted to get out of there and back to his family or just for ethical reasons, it seems he acted bravely in defying the military.
After 20 years in, any lifer would have been coopted by the military and the necessary jingoism and religious fervor that will make a soldier willing to kill and die on command for any cause without questioning why.
Sorry...I misunderstood what you were saying before...My Bad
but your little rant about jingoism is untrue...don't get stuck on stupid
Maybe he believed we didn't torture when he enlisted. Is that too complicated an idea?
Several postings here show that there is a certain number of "vets" who agree upon the matter as a result of their own former service.
Mohamed Ali's refusal was based upon his religious beliefs and had the Vietnam war been a "Jihad" he would have fought. He himself admitted that in an interview with Penthouse Magazine in the early 70's. He still did the right thing
even then.
Speaking as a Native American former member of the USMC, and Vietnam era vet, I can only speak of my own experience. If I had been given an order to torture, or kill a "non-combatant", or even a wounded enemy, the "giver of the order" would have been in more danger of death than the intended recipient. I was schooled in the Code of Conduct and it is very important that the reader who is not a veteran understand this point. The code of conduct are not "some words on a poster", "on the wall", or in your "field manual"; they are there to be observed and obeyed by ALL members of the US Armed Forces. To refuse an illegal order takes courage, and fortitude. You may face courts martial, you may be ostracized by your "fellows" (none of mine anyway), you may be treated as a "slacker", a "non-hacker", but as in my case, you would not be facing charges for killing your superior; simply because your superior would never be so foolish as to give such an order to YOU---------.
Had I realized then, what I know now I would never have been there in the first place. The USA has indulged itself with illegal wars for far too long now. With the "all volunteer military" those members need to know that they ARE EXPECTED to refuse illegal orders----being in Afghanistan or Iraq is illegal and all they are doing is participating with the high level criminal element known collectively now as the US Military, under orders of the US Government.
Desertion is a moronic manner to handle the problem. You "run" from yourself when you are a volunteer that deserts. Stand and take the heat, and you will always be able to say to yourself that "you did the RIGHT" thing---you may be talking to yourself---but who else do you live with but yourself.
I could face charges under the "Patriot Act" (a ridiculous piece of legislation at best) but:
If you are a "volunteer" ---a "Citizen Serving" in the US Military and you are deployed to any of the "illegal wars" this nation is involved with it is your OBLIGATION to refuse the orders to even set foot in another nation's territory if there illegally*. It really is that simple. I would urge every member of the US Armed Forces now deployed in either Afghanistan or Iraq, to submit in writing ASAP, your refusal to participate in "organized criminal activity" even if it is sanctioned by your "government". Only then will you become a truly Brave American. * See Geneva Accords and Nuremberg Tribunals/Accords.
If you are a "professional", i.e. one who makes the Military your profession (a very old profession) then you have the duty, as a professional, to refuse an illegal order. Besides, if you are a "Professional" and you are not with Black Water or one of the other "mercenary groups"----you're a "slut" and just "giving it away"------------for working so cheap, for a country that will forget you "next week"----unless you run for office then; you'd be the "Queen of Sluts".
"If you sell your services cheap, then you are cheap" (paraphrased; Tacitus)
"Services offered at below market value are below market value in quality" Sun Tzu.
Either way, Criminals in High Office, such as the present administration, would find it impossible to spread their misery without a willing and compliant co/criminal "Volunteer Military", which is what they have now.
For the reader: This was a posting for Vets, and members of the US Military---some of the language may be offensive to the uninitiated----please accept by apology for any offense.
I do wonder if the us military is still giving training in what orders must not be followed. I recall from CFRS Cornwallis that that was a part of a week's worth of training when I joined the Canadian Forces. After that training was given it was reinforced when nco's knowingly gave unlawful orders and we had the fun of suffering the times when a recruit followed those orders. (that was before the somalia/airborn incident)
I wonder how much training is given to follow orders without question as compared to how training on how to decide for yourself if an order is legal or not, and then have some idea what the hell to do next. Seems like it all happens with more urgency than that. It's war, and war crimes prosecutions don't often focus on the person in that position. I'm sure there's a lot of having to do something unpleasant. We're talking about something that's a lot more than that, and using raising the defense of I have to do things I don't want to do is pretty bogus unless you're being ordered to some extreme. I don't think the WVNG pfc types at AbuGharaib were in a position to make such determinations, and the suicide rate is pretty high.
Quite a bit more training to follow orders without question. Don't be silly, it is the military after all. You're there to kill strangers for your country and its corporations. There's a reason I left as soon as my term of service was up; well, more than one reason...
If I had been given an order to torture, or kill a "non-combatant", or even a wounded enemy, the "giver of the order" would have been in more danger of death than the intended recipient
you are SO right I could kiss you...(just kidding about the kiss part)...but you are absolutely right
None of these Guys when pressed, can come up with names dates and places...thats all I ask for...give me proof if you going to smear the Military
Until I hear some of that I say he's just a run of the mill Coward looking for sympathy
Duh. The date, time and all the particulars are a matter of record, ie, when bushy signed the reverse polish ex-post facto law that made torture legal and barred prosecution of torturers. When Jemley enlisted, nobody believed US tortured, and everybody denied they were. So what was an illegal order when he enlisted would not have been after bushy changed the law. I guess they didn't teach mighty snowwolf to read with understanding. But I guess one need not be thus enabled just to have a "patriotic" opinion.
you have NO idea what you're talking about
How's that valiant snowwolf? Are you a scholar of constitutional law? At least I have a degree and a license, and you?
PS It's still OK to bray an opinion though, at least for the time being.
I'm not 'smearing the military'. My grandad was AG of AZNG before there was an AZNAG, my dad was Manhattan Project, and they made me IVF when I tried to enlist in the SeaBees. My GGG....GGgandpa, Seth Pomeroy, was a Revolutionary War General. I'm saying they changed the rules in midstream and who's to say that an order to torture (since they did it under orders) wasn't illegal and then made legal afterwards with a bunch of weasily language, but may for a lot of reasons seemed legal and torture? And just who bears the burden of proving it was illegal or of making the right decision, really? Ever got a bad ticket you couldn't win in traffic court?
When it comes to the Bush administration, the insane Cheney and all the others who assisted and abetted the men and women of the armed services who participated in torture I simply have no comment...except...
ELECT OBAMA!
Nativeson wrote,
""If you sell your services cheap, then you are cheap" (paraphrased; Tacitus)
"Services offered at below market value are below market value in quality" Sun Tzu."
Tacitus and Sun Tzu were evidently blind or half-sighted, relatively little experienced, or else and certainly not speaking of workers today; for today, we have to sometimes underprice our services in order to just survive, put food on the table, a roof over heads, ..., and this sometimes requires accepting to be even severely low-balled in terms of what the actual fair market rates are for whatever the services in question are.
F.e., computer professionals and during the 1990s in the U.S., and perhaps ongoing today, had to compete against massive annual importations of foreign workers really to be used only for the purpose of globalization, replacing U.S. citizen professionals and massive offshoring of jobs, and the former related to the latter; to train the foreign workers for when they'd be sent back to their home countries, where they'd manage the offshored jobs for the U.S. corporations. So unless fortunate, you had to accept low-balling. You didn't want to be low-balled, but it's all you got for "offers" and you had bills to pay, or else be totally homeless. Thankfully, the U.S. had laws that could be used to sue for retroactive correction of compensation, but not everyone (including myself) knew of this law in due time, for there's very a short period for the statute of limitations, for how soon such lawsuits must be filed to be heard in courts of law. The period is six to a whopping max. twelve months, so you need to know about the law like nearly right away; there's very little time to waste for filing.
Meanwhile, you can be lowballed only because it's the general way in the overall market, getting nothing but lowball offers, and you have bills to pay, all while nonetheless providing top-quality, professional services; because you have bills to pay, need food and lodging, and transportation, and not everyone keeps the lowball rates in mind when actually working. I don't keep wage in mind when working and this permits making management seem as incompetent as it is or helpless without your good work.
It's like when needing to fight on the streets; not every fight is guaranteed to be the same, you can need to vary your methods of defence from one confrontational situation to another. In the work world, when very many citizens are replaced with swarms of imported foreign workers and many jobs are or have been offshored, then you can need to fight back in whatever manners that come to mind and seem to be potential winners.
In bodybuilding they have the stupid phrase or motto of "no pain, no gain", and it's a serious falsehood in athletics, where physical pain is sign of injury or soon injury, danger. But it is a phrase that fits in many other aspects of life on Earth for humans, those who know the most pain are the most honourable, etc., and humane, unless their suffering has rendered a person insane, which sometimes happens. Sometimes the world of work, employment is the same way, first pain, to achieve gain, but you don't achieve that point unless you prove to be fitting to receive it; the bosses figure.
Sun Tzu evidently knew nothing of today's world of work. Maybe what he said was fitting with the reality he immediately knew of where he grew up, etc., but his above-quoted view does NOT apply in general terms. Life is more variable than he was allowing or pretending to be able to allow; given he couldn't change reality and its variations. Came up with some interesting views, but how well did he succeed and how many slaves did he need in order to not seem to be poor and in need to contend with foreign imports, workers, used to only replace local citizens, etc.? He probably knew little, if anything, of this kind of doing "business".
Consider how rich the elites are compared to how poor they critically deserve to be; rewarded, by and among themselves, but you'd never pay $5 per hour for their labour to build a mere house, much less govern a country, ever much less when that country is a superpower. Consider how rich and how fast rich rappers can become when selling t-shirts for $15 or $20 while paying the workers who make these 10, 15, 20, 30 cents an hour, and they truly work, plenty, but they remain forever poor.
Ever heard of charlatan tricks? Sun Tzu would've been wise to consider a lot more than he did when he came up with the idea of the above quoted words of his.
Jesus was better; he illustrated that everything's really upside down, reverse of what should be, ...; the accused are often the innocent while the accusers are like ... in Crucible, f.e. It's better, because he gave the accurate picture of general reality, but while his story also illustrates the rich pigs of society, as juxtaposites to a sane and just world or life. Overall, far more realistic!
I've read that Sun Tzu made sense regarding war, imperialism, colonialism, ... though.
Hey Mike------
I was writing---irreverently of Mercenaries------and in relation to their "services".
But thanks anyway
According to the UCMJ, it is the soldier's responsibility to REFUSE TO OBEY an illegal order. If this guy had any courage, he would have done exactly that, not run away to Canada.
Please refer to R.M.O. Bywee's query and my response below. Bushy's new law blessed torture so that what was previously an illegal order was legalized.
Wrong. German "laws" authorized most of what was done in WWII. It was STILL illegal, and we STILL prosecuted Germans who were "only obeying orders".
Which makes bush's laws that justify and allow the torture of prisoners are also illegal. Of course, unlike nazi germany, the usa is not defeated nor is it occupied by a victorious power willing to enforce the nurenburg laws. Unless you hope Obama will prosecute after Jan. '09...
correctomundo regalianoire
I couldn't agree more passionately, TT. I think everyone forgot about this, except maybe his lawyer. It's there big and bold as the Bill of Rights, but it's never had a consitutional case on it, to the best of my knowledge. Maybe nobody was ever that stupid before. It's not only illegal viz international law, it's against the Constitution. I really want to hear what the Strict-Constructionalist contract-of- adhesion social theorists have to say about it.
"Speaking as a Native American former member of the USMC, and Vietnam era vet, I can only speak of my own experience. If I had been given an order to torture, or kill a "non-combatant" the "giver of the order" would have been in more danger of death than the intended recipient"
So how many "non-combatants" were killed in Vietnam, again?
BTW I really don't see what your ethnicity has to do with any of this.
For all of you saying "if his story is true", do any of you doubt that our government is engaged in widespread torture?
Ethnicity has nothing to do with it--------
Except that Native Americans are exempt from the draft---or mandatory military service of any kind---in accordance with the Geneva Accords--
when you volunteer, you put yourself in a different category than draftees/conscripts----I was not required to serve as the mentality of the period expressed.
As a volunteer, I was in a position to serve in a capacity much the same as a foreighn member would in order to obtain citizenship-----or a Mercenary---
This country has not belonged to the Native Americans since 1883 when the USA began formally breaking the treaties with illegal legislation. To consider the Native Americans an "ethnic group" is playing into the hands of the propagandists you most likely learned your American History from. Then again if you are like most Americans---you very happy being ignorant; if not then you might wish to read----
"A Peoples History of the United States"-----Howard Zinn
"The Nations Within"------Vine Deloria Jr.
"Disinherited"----Dale Van Every
The US Constition---Art 6
How many non-combatants were killed in Vietnam-----?
Who do you wish to believe?
The USA (never known as a souce of truth) admits to more than 2 million Vietnamese being killed--North and South--of those most likely less than 10% were "combatants"-
Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army--------
The Vietnamese have never published (to my knowledge) figures----but they WON-----the USA LOST------
Try to take the chip off your shoulder---there are plenty of us out there willling to knock it off.....................
and Native Americans have always served this Country which sometimes is amazing to me...I have a LOT of Respect for you Guys
I knew a Sioux from So. Dakota well named Dave Stumbling-Bear ...he had to go by "Bear" though cuz Stumbling Bear was too long to Stencil on a Shirt...*s*
Besides that, you have family who experienced war without the benefit of the UCMJ or much other such humanitarian notion, not all that long ago. Not to forget.
USAF disabled vet, Fall of Saigon. Ethnicity has EVERYTHING to do with it, if, USAF so, you took a look around my flight >65% African-American, Puerto Ricano, Guatamalan. Please do not act if you do not even know this! It is why the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., made a much less known yet more exceptional in it's entirety. In the Church he started at in Harlem, Dr. King returned along with Pastor's and other Laity, to what he termed "Explain". "Time to Break Silence." All were egregiously irate with him for speaking out with his ALL during the struggle for Civil Rights[um, WTF nobody won that one]pointing out it was their children, grandchildren, brothers, fathers, uncles that were in the Majority being MURDERED in Vietnam.
Insofar as Torture keep your ass away from Wiki Wierdo type links. If I gave you an address 10 to 1 you wouldn't take 5 minutes away from the idiotic, no nothing, do nothing, care for Nada keyboard to check it.
Then why would you ask such an inane pointless question? Insofar as TORTURE. AMNENDMENT.8., sorry I am angry very angry, okay redaction, theivery of our Fourth, not a soul in my burb realized that ,"Hmmm, oh yes, Unreasonable Search and Seizure." Right in the Wrong corridor on Your way in JFK, oops a sign, "YOU HAVE JUST LEFT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA", in NY, no way you spew! That is until they, "DHS" on site grab your ass and why would that be? BECAUSE. Off to a Black Site 3 years minimum, no habeas, no lawyer, no translator. Of course you'll require one, you'll be in Syria! Perhaps the Bigger and Better Guantanamo, holds only 10,000 Homegrown Terrorists. Remember that bill dear? H.R.6304? May of '08. If you do not comprehend the extent of their Political
Ponerology and climatic joy, please listen 1 minute. "yadda yadda...reflect the result of that review.(U)
These Guidlines generally authorize investigation by the FBI of threats to the national security of the United States; investigative assistance by the FBI to state,local, and foreign governments in relations to the matter affecting the national security; the collection of foreign intelligence by the FBI; and the retention of the dissemination of information resulting from the foregoing activities. This includes guidance for the FBI pursuant to the Executive Order 12333, "United States Intelligence Activities" (Dec. 4, 1981)(U)..." Imagine this is an memo so redacted you cannot make Ashcroft's Secret secret Memo. WTF do you think occurred? Well dumbass Gonzo showed you in '07, he used post-it notes to cover the redacted, in cases pages, then re-copied them. It tweren'ta secret no mo'.
I cannot find the Joint Subcommittee Meeting from '04, I think DHS, Committee on Constitutional Law or Scholars, House Judiciary, too. Familiar names, Jerry Nadler and Sheila Jackson-Lee[I am certain she was unaware of TORTURE]speaking of tapping and trapping US citizens, called it "Data Mining", oh so quite.
I know this sounds sappy but what helps me, I hold the 9 wee pages that comprise The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, 8 - 14 Avenue de la Paix, 1211 Geneva 10, Switzerland, (41-22) 917-9000, and I read and hold them and feel perhaps 2 might actually receive JUSTICE. Albeit our Torture Victim, US Resident, from the US, snatched in the US. Sans habeas, lawyers so forth. 2 schools of thought:Obama is letting the Supremes have this making the Extraordinary Rendition and Torture moot, damned if you do, others have confidence, albeit Dennis, Jonathan Turley and no one just me wonder WHY ARE YOU NOT STOPPING THIS NOW NOW NOW! I have boxes and boxes. IDK. Time is the test.
"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensible duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." (Thomas Paine, the Rights of Man[winter soldier])
z, man whatever it is for real for real. Do me a bid, 2 okay? Never leave ur seat.
1. Talking about dude in article, friend of mine, I have many friends that are IVAW, so unlike 12 month bids in Vietnam, Stop Lossed x 7 @ 18 month bids with TBI and PTSD. You know what I see everyday? Young as my daughter, my backseat I've a blindspot, I have to turn my head rt and lt like an owl, JUMP they think a gunney sgt from Da odder side, mon. Please my friend, of course Guard
4 years in Afghanistan as he's Stop Lossed, in his 5th supposed to be inactive "Dude U R leaving for Iraq."
J'refusez! Go to http://www.ivaw.org, may not be there he's his own site but no time, get back later. He did not run, he did what he was ordered to, Iraq, nuh uh, iraq is an illegal invasion so no, not in his orders. Prison in a week. think positive, getting set free for his TRUTH. Matthis Chiroux, Snow Wolf c'mon times I am nobody but I am humane and i vow to never within my power allow anothers child, whichever country, be MURDERED[f'ing collateral damage]2. Data Mining or easier if you don't know your way around the Law Library of Congress, go to http://www.aclu.org and you will find cochon Ashcroft and Who Yoo, and their 1st secret secret memo only to become Gonzos final idiocy. Peace I really know they haven't a dime for shit. I run them wherever ans god love 'em Barney Frank will track us down before we leave the Capital Bldg if he can so only $75, great Senator, shoot, Namaste i was verbodin[sic]on the Tap and Trap called Commondreams on WordPress, yep Namaste mine are on WordPress they have commondreams as their customer spy shit and allll. I miss you, please go to CONSTITUTIONALERT or Constitutionalert, 2 seperate Blogs and get in touch i am worried. Damn as hell never missed this Jr. Spy Trap!
All's gone silent on the CD front.