Subscribe to Common Dreams News Updates
Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
Preemptive Arrest
A year after St. Paul police rounded up and arrested over 200 people who were planning to protest the Republican National Convention - but hadn't actually done anything yet - 27 plaintiffs filed a class action suit against the city on behalf of all those arrested. Police officers used pepper spray, non-lethal ammunition and horses against the protesters, none of whom was convicted of anything except not liking Republicans.
"The city has admitted that people were arrested preemptively in this park," said attorney Robert Kolstad. "They arrested them because they were afraid of what they might do in the future, which is a dangerous path for our government to take. Taken to its logical conclusion, what it means is that the government now believes that they can come to our houses and arrest us because they think that we might do something wrong. Our constitution simply doesn't permit that."
51 Comments so far
Show All-Our constitution simply doesn't permit that."
Obviously this guy hasn't heard of the secret executive orders, Obama has pile of blank ones in his desk, I'm sure, "just in case".
Face it folks, your much vaunted constitution is a dead letter and police state powers, like the patriot acts, brought to you by the Dems, are now official policy.
"[The Constitution] is just a goddamned piece of paper" - GWB, Nov 2005
Sounds like a Banana Republic: GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT!
Actually that was the system of Roman Law. In ancient Rome, if you were charged with a crime you had to prove your own innocence. I think that was how the Spanish Inquisition thing worked too...
That's how French law today works, isn't it?
Used to be, the EU forbade that idea, but it might have been removed earlier.
I don't know the situation now, but it used to be that you did not have the right to remain silent, and if the magistrate in charge of the case (note, not the police) decided you were withholding evidence he could lock you up until you thought better of it. Or, for that matter, he could lock up anyone he damned well pleased.
On the positive side it rarely happened, the ratio of people convicted of offenses they did not commit was far lower (than say the UK), and the ratio of genuine convictions higher.
So what does that tell us? It is difficult to compare two totally different countries and cultures, but what it tells me is the system is as corruptible as the people running it.
The EXAMINING magistrate, juge d’instruction, who is a specialised sitting magistrate, magistrats du siège. Examining magistrates are supposed to be impartial, interested neither in prosecution or defense. They get various good perks, salary, tenure, granted by the constitution, to try to ensure that they are impartial.
No it isn't. There is a provision in the French constitution, that EXPLICITLY forbids this. The French constitution EXPLICITLY declares that someone is innocent until proven guilty. Something that neither the written American constitution, nor the unwritten British constitution explicitly does. In a recent ruling, throwing out a 3 strikes law, the French Constitutional Council ruled that the law was illegal, because it presumed guilt. To wit:
"Moreover, whereas under section nine of the Declaration of 1789, every man is presumed innocent until has has been proven guilty, it follows that in principle the legislature does not establish a presumption of guilt in criminal matters," wrote the Council. This basic principle applies "to any sanction in the nature of punishment, even if the legislature has left the decision to an authority that is nonjudicial in nature."
Note the "every man is presumed innocent until has has been proven guilty".
The first thing to be understood is that there are 2 types of magistrates in the French system, sitting magistrates, and standing magistrates. Examining magistrates are selected from the group of sitting magistrates. Their roles are separate, the people performing those roles are separate. It is this failure to distinguish between the 2 types of magistrates that often lead to confusion by people who are only exposed to the Anglo-American system.
Thanks for the information.
Try to convince Dick Cheney that even the GOP is supposed to give deference to the Constitution.
Preventive arrest is less egregious than preventive detention, which Obama has already endorsed.
These people were detained without bail or access to phone calls in filthy warehouses.
Whatever the outcome of this Civil suit the Police of St Paul accomplished their mission.
The people will have to pay the costs of any Law Suit via TAXES. They will have to pay for their own oppression.
The people will be more reluctant to rally in the future as the police can resort to such tactics again. It is not like the Police DID NOT KNOW that preemptive arrests were illegal.
What has to happen is members of the Police force and those that gave the orders to make the arrests HAVE TO GO TO JAIL and have their offices stripped.
Exactly. The only thing that will stop these abuses is felony prison time, with the loss of job, pension, and the right to ever hold public office again.
Abuse of public office is the only crime I can think of that should follow someone around even after they've done the prison time.
Your point is well taken, but the RNC protesters at best will get monetary compensation - if they can get a lawyer to take their case. Court-awarded damages for false arrest/illegal incarceration aren't much, I understand.
The thing you are searching for - justice - cannot be found in our legal system. Maybe the police will be enjoined from certain tactics, but I doubt it. The courts aren't looking at these violations of rights as a systemic evil.
And yes, the taxpayers pay for the damages. They pay for the unnecessary police force and their new crowd control weapons. They pay for the wars and the bullets and bombs that kill people who've done no harm to anyone here.
-TIA
Wow, look at that horse!
Same kind the Tsar's Cossacks rode.
Essentials of empire.
This preemption thing really took off after 9/11.
Started in Afghanistan, now coming to your home town!
WHAT? Did you expect our government to have two sets of rules?
***********
Funny thing is, teabaggers aren't getting the same treatment, but they act like they are.
Yeah, I just said pretty much the same thing on my FB. It's disgusting to hear conservative talk radio complain the moment someone has a sign taken down by anyone at a town hall or something.
I have a friend who was rounded up in one of these Bush preventative detentions and held in a filthy warehouse with nothing but an oil concrete floor to sit on.
Why are things looking more and more like 1930s Germany?
Can Obama turn this trend around?
"Can Obama turn this trend around?"
What makes you think he has any desire to do that? I haven't seen him do anything that even suggests he understands the concept, have you?
Obama finds the Sixties counterculture distasteful, even repugnant.
Despite his storied background as a "community organizer", and those preposterous claims that he is an echo of Martin Luther King, he doesn't seem any more sympathetic, much less supportive, than his predecessors to mass political protest and dissent.
So I don't expect Obama, or Eric Holder, to speak ill of police tactics-- after all, a Unitary Executive can't build a totalitarian police state by nitpicking the police over "civil liberties" issues that are obsolete for pragmatic purposes!
While the police actions at the Denver DNC were not so egregious and extreme as the St. Paul stormtrooper goon squads, Bonnie Prince Obama took no notice of anything but his own "agenda".
Unlike Chicago, 1968, there was no principled politician like Abraham Ribicoff to stand up and denounce the excessive and intimidating police presence chilling public dissent in Denver.
Besides Amy Goodman and her producers getting busted, hassled, and abused by police authorities in St. Paul, the video that sticks in my mind is that of an obviously unarmed woman literally offering flowers to a phalanx of Imperial Stormtroopers marching past, and being viciously pepper-sprayed for her trouble by one of the armor-clad piggies.
That poor "flower child" alone deserves a few million dollars in punitive damages.
· Yr Obd't Servant
Sorry to see you are still being conned PaiaGirl How can Obama turn the trend around when HE is one them? He sold out his constituency a long time ago. Next time please support 3rd party candidates.
PaiaGirl might have been writing sarcastically, facetiously, or rhetorically. Nevertheless, your suggestion is still very wise. The Democrats should not be given another chance. They offer no change worth believing in.
-------------------------------------------------------
If you don't ask yourself why, you know nothing.
Well, the problem is we are through the looking glass and time is running backwards. Obama want to 'move forward' and not prosecute the war criminals for torture and such in the past, but will arrest and imprison people for things they might do in the future. The forwarder we go the behinder we get and soon we'll be back living in the dark ages, and before. It's not just the 'end of history' but it's reversal.
Take heart, however: the revolution is not long ago and we'll be there soon, it seems. What interesting times...
Oh, come on now. You want to blame something that happened months BEFORE he even took office on Obama? READ the article. These arrests took place a year ago. This has NOTHING to do with Obama. Why don't you blame Clinton, or would that just seem too nostalgic for you? Pathetic.
What? You haven't heard about Obama's policy of preventive detentions?
jlocke123...
SORRY, Pally...
Buttt..."Face it folks, your much vaunted constitution is a dead letter and police state powers, like the patriot acts, brought to you by the Dems, are now official policy."
Is 'ABSOLUTELY' !WRONG!...
'THE'...Cheney/Bush...'AD`MieN'...
'Nailed'...THE 'Constitution'...in...
ITzs...!Coffin!..."constitution is a dead"...
AND...Brought 'YoU'..."THE Patriot`Actzs"...
'WE'...the 'Demsz.'...As, YOU 'call' U.S..
.Were 'Just'...(*accomplices*)...
'Brother'...locke...!KNOW!
'THY'...!HiS`toRy!...
Be`fore...'THEE'...
!?SPEAKkkk?!
patzsdad
Yunz shud c'mon out and enjoy some more of the same fun out here in the 'Burgh!
http://www.organizepittsburgh.org
obama DO WHAT to help? obama's the problem just
like bush! now is our time to get the party started
and reintroduce america to democracy. the msm is
going to do a hell of a job lying and distorting
the truth and is going to abet these beating and
arrests as they happen. it would be nice to see
bill maher keith olbermann tom schultz etc there
to broadcast the real news as it happens. so
how i don't think bill will want to get his hands dirty
but olbermann would he's a tough guy. peace out
everyone see ya in the burgh and remember no
violence unless you have your back against the
wall and there is no choice.
Actually, I think this mass preemptive arrest strategy originated with the Nixon administration's response to the huge peace movement moratorium demonstrations of 1969 and 1970.
Rather like happened in Chile when Allende was overthrown in a CIA-backed coup, persons attending a mass moratorium march against the Vietnam war in Washington DC were herded into RFK football stadium for booking and ticketing, a process that for many took several days. The size of the protest was certainly diminished by this innovative crowd control tactic, which was the brainchild of a high ranking assistant Attorney General in John Mitchell's Justice Department named, ahem, William Rehnquist (later to become Chief Justice of the Supreme Court).
The technique was fine tuned by the use of informants prior to the RNC demonstrations in St. Paul. The organizers were targeted in advance, raided, and arrested a day or two before the protests were to take place (Amy Goodman was later arrested for reporting on these events).
Can't wait to see what new wrinkles are in store for the folks planning to go to Pittsburgh.
Bill from Saginaw
I think this mass preemptive arrest strategy originated with the Nixon administration's ....
Bill, didn't the government arrest several thousand Americans of Japanese ancestory back in the 40's? Somewhat different circumstance I'll admit, but the action itself is the same. I suspect that this tactic has been used many times, just not publicized.
Yeah, maybe they'll finally haul out those brain-boiling microwave cannons, or ultrasonic disruptor generators, or thought control technology of which we've been hearing so many rumors lately.
Or maybe they'll just herd everyone into a fenced-off Free Speech Zone around Primanti Brothers and feed them those awful sandwiches with French fries-- or are we back to "Freedom Fries"?-- INSIDE the sandwich!
http://www.aldenteblog.com/images/2008/07/10/primanti_4.jpg
· Yr Obd't Servant
Don't rag on on the Primanti's sndwiches! They are a Pittsburgh landmark - even if modern-day vegan anarchists would never eat one (although many Pittsburgh anarchists are "wet anarchists" so they might be seen in Primanti's drinking a beer.
We already know what the arestees will be fed, from the Pittsburgh 122, arrested during the "unrest" on March 20, 2003. In jail, that they are fed cheap wonderbread, ham and cheese sandwiches. Anyone who complained or asked for a vegan sandwich faced the usual cop abuse.
Bill from Saginaw, is right, this has been going on a long, long time. (preemptive arrests)
It would make a good barometer of despotism.
Since the people and their civil rights are being trampled anyway we might just as well REVOLT!
And just which, pray tell, of these "civil rights" are you claiming are being "trampled?"
If the target of your commentary is what is being produced by the blatant lies being told to undermine the current effort to change healthcare for each and every American from being a privilege to becoming the status quo, may I then remind you of the "civil liberties" that were summarily done away with by the Bush Administration's Patriot Act.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I fail to see how attempting to PROVIDE access to healthcare for all Americans is anywhere on the same plane as REVOKING rights from citizens.
obama DO WHAT to help? obama's the problem just
like bush! now is our time to get the party started
and reintroduce america to democracy. the msm is
going to do a hell of a job lying and distorting
the truth and is going to abet these beating and
arrests as they happen. it would be nice to see
bill maher keith olbermann tom schultz etc there
to broadcast the real news as it happens. so
how i don't think bill will want to get his hands dirty
but olbermann would he's a tough guy. peace out
everyone see ya in the burgh and remember no
violence unless you have your back against the
wall and there is no choice.
And just two weeks ago there were men walking around with guns on thier hips at town hall meetings, and one that was hosted by President Obama.
NO ARRESTS. Thats what 7 years of right wing control and fear mongering has brough to America. Right wing Judiciary,Law enforcement, Patriot Acts,Stazi State, and the near death of the constitution.
So there you have it folks, the right wing repbulicans who controll the law enforcement agenices and all the first responders, fusion centers and satzi police were more than happy to play unconstitutional GOD.
wire tapping, warrantless surviellance and everyone in the familty is getting paid.
But now that the Dems are going to replace all those right wing high paid insane cronies that have unchecked power with Democrat cronies, lets see how long it takes before the gunn carring , town hall noise making stazi fake patriots start getting arrested, for expressing their first amendment rights.
I have no love for right wing religeous republicans , after being gang stalked by them for 2.5 years, torture, but I am a hardcore constitutional patriot, and would not like to see the right wing punished by the left wing with the same unconstitutional insanity, well maybe for a year,
We must repeal the Patriot Acts and stop unconstitutional abuses.
And why no mention of the 'free speech zones' at the Democratic Party Convention. Isn't that equally outrageous?
And that was done not to shut down the republicans, but the progressives who were speaking out against the democrats.
Why did they speak out? Because they were pretty sure that Obama (or Hillary) would be doing just what they are doing now, selling out the people of America just like the republicans.
Some will argue that it isn't as bad as it would be under McCain. I guess some people think they can get used to getting their head held 6 inches under the water easier then if it is being held a foot under water.
so it goes
www.NotOneMore.US
Police tactics are the same outside the Democratic National Conventions. The Party bigwigs have the power to tell the local police to chill, but these things are scripted events, and so I guess they don't call for any restraint.
Zombie loyalists wave placards inside these conventions. Meanwhile, the protesting public outside is either ignored or handcuffed or cordoned into "free speech zones."
-TIA
Domestically, it's called preemptive arrest. On foreign soils, it's called extraordinary rendition. If I were stateside, I'd be in Pittsburgh wearing a sandwich board calling for the arrest of those who made the decision to do this in the first place. I mean, isn't doing illegal things still...illegal? (That was, of course, sarcasm.)
------------------------------------------------------
If you don't ask yourself why, you know nothing.
Bring America Back !!!!
**May the Force be with all these in the Class Action and may each Protestor profit mightily from the embarrassments and violence foisted upon them by the Jackbooted calvary.
**May each jackboot pig who took part, and their leaders who ordered them into pre-emption be fired and never be allowed again in law enforcement !
**I hope they can retain Gloria Allred as their
Pit Bull Prosecutor, and that she can secure many, many, many Punitive Damages for them !
Let's face it Ladies and Gentlemen: These are Intolerable, Coercive Acts. We need to start a year long National Boycott. Buy nothing but minimal food. Yank the Bank, Liquidate the 401K, default on the mortgage and credit cards until the government responds and gives us a redress of grievances in accordance with the highest law in the land.
Thought crimes belong in George Orwell's "1984" not here in America.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
This is scary stuff, considering the film "Minority Report" which to me at the time, was SCI-FI, *not* reality...now it's REALITY?!!....1984, here we come!
SurvivalTime.org
It's bad enough to get arrested BEFORE you do something or are just thinking about it but now it appears at least one police force in jericho, ark has taken the town and passersby of that town hostage in a sick sort of way and have gone so far as to shoot their fire chief, who came into court to protest a second ticket of the same day, in the back and he was unarmed.
Definitely bad bad precedence being set.
Get a load of this from msnbc, which I am surprised to have reported it at all:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32680338/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
Yep, a town of 175 people that has 7 cops. Not a problem with crime, eh? Did you note that the town also has a problem with accounting for all the fines collected?
I'll be damned! I said that I was surprised that msnbc even reported on this, even on its main web page but I just went to msnbc and that article is nowhere to be found, even under the 'U.S. news > to 'crime and the courts' which is on the link I provided, So what gives?
Could it be that this has been determined 'unnewsworthy' for the american public?
Or, are there some very higher ups who've quashed this?
Never mind, it is still there just have to dig the 'U.S. News' for it, but it sure isn't a lead breaking story anymore.
Yeah, I noticed the missing fines and the repossession of a police cruiser; and a fire truck by the forestry commission no less.
That is sure one jacked up town, even gave a 78 year old retiree a ticket for doing 58mph in his OWN driveway.
And now the city hall is 'shuttered' and the mayor ain't talking since she got back from the doctors.
I saw the article on Yahoo Canada. They posted it as one of those 'funny' stories that you hear of from time to time.
Samosamo, I knowed you was a bad'un. Wun o' them there protestin' de-senters. Y'all in a heap a trouble, boy!
By the power invested in me, Sheff a Jericho county, I fiiiine you $175, payable to me personal like. Another $175 fer disbelievein' that Jericho an' the whole wide world done got created 5000 years ago.
Iffen you don't pay up real quick like, I'm o-bliged t' have you throwed in the hooscow. We goin' teach y'all an'them ornery CDers some manners, boy!