"“Mr. McNamara must not escape the lasting moral condemnation of his countrymen,” The New York Times said".
Posted by vdb
Jul 6 2009 - 4:54pm
pots and kettles.
the NYT was instrumental in bush's crimes and are also deserving of lasting condemnation.
Posted by Ullern
Jul 7 2009 - 11:05am
Sure.
Posted by freethinker68
Jul 6 2009 - 10:45am
Just goes to show you....Billy Joel is right "Only the Good Die Young".... How many good were killed by this man's decisions is criminal in Vietnam and Southeast Asia!
Posted by NateW
Jul 6 2009 - 10:58am
At least McNamara had the good manners to sort of apologize in "The Fog of War." It is quite unlikely the rouges gallery from Dubya, Cheney, & Co. will ever apologize for what they have done.
Posted by Kurt
Jul 6 2009 - 2:36pm
I did get the impression that McNamara had become a somewhat haunted old man, perhaps rightly so, by all that he had knowingly participated in. I expect Colin Powell will end up much like him in this respect.
Posted by 42ezra
Jul 6 2009 - 3:04pm
"At least McNamara had the good manners to sort of apologize in "The Fog of War." It is quite unlikely the rouges gallery from Dubya, Cheney, & Co. will ever apologize for what they have done." ......good manners....??? Were you around when McNamara wanted to nuke the north/south border of VietNam? It was to be called the McNamara Line? So far we have NOT come......
Posted by NateW
Jul 6 2009 - 4:45pm
Yes, in most cultures and circumstances, honestly apologizing for prior misconduct is considered good manners. In fact, it is a common complaint amongst the more elderly amongst us that those of the younger set have none. You can't have it both ways, old man.
Posted by bardamu
Jul 6 2009 - 12:42pm
Pile the bodies high at Austerlitz and Waterloo,
Shovel them under and let me work–
I am the grass; I cover all.
And pile them high at Gettysburg
And pile them high at Ypres and Verdun.
Shovel them under and let me work.
Two years, ten years, and passengers ask the conductor:
What place is this?
Where are we now?
I am the grass.
Let me work.
------------------Carl Sandburg
Posted by barrycounty
Jul 6 2009 - 12:54pm
One can only hope he suffered excruciating pain before his demise, 50 years to late.
Posted by vdb
Jul 6 2009 - 5:05pm
(for those who are unaware - mcnamara was also involved in the planning of the firebombing of Dresden)
I had occassion to question this sad old man face to face a few years back when he came to Hay-on-Wye pushing his "I was wrong" film and book. He seemed sincere in his regret over MAD and adament that nukes should be banned.
Frail and, indeed haunted looking, he seemed very wary to be confronted by what must have appeared to be a ghost from the 60s' protests (I am a veteran draft dodger and proud).
He was, I believe, taken aback by my controlled courtesy, but when I asked if he too felt that depleted uranium munitions (DUM) should be included in the list of nuclear weapons - all I got was a "No comment".
Bastard probably still had stocks in conventionals.
So much for being sorry.
Posted by EKATON
Jul 6 2009 - 7:11pm
May the bastard roast in hell for an eternity of eternities.
Posted by shach
Jul 6 2009 - 10:18pm
Oops! He made a mistake. Will the tens of thousand sodiers killed and their families forgive him? Will the tens of thousands of Vietnamese slaughtered not care? Will the rest of the world trust that we will not make similar mistakes again?
Posted by Caleb Abell
Jul 7 2009 - 6:45am
I think you meant to say Millions of Vietnamese.
Posted by Caleb Abell
Jul 7 2009 - 7:50am
I wonder if the devil has a sense of humor. Perhaps when McNamara arrives in hell, instead of using the normal lake of fire, he'll use Napalm instead.
Posted by Ullern
Jul 7 2009 - 11:13am
Ha-ha, yes. That's punishment fitting the crime!
(Although to really balance out, McNamara'd have to die from Napalm for his next 3.4 million incarnated life-times. That's one heavy karma!)
Posted by vdb
Jul 7 2009 - 2:01pm
the US has reconfiggered Napalm.
they're now using unleaded.
eco-friendly fire.
Posted by NMBill
Jul 7 2009 - 11:23am
The comments at the Washington Post tell this story much better.
Many, many VN vets commented first hand experiences. NOT ONE POSITIVE POST IN THE WHOLE THREAD.
I guess everybody in the top reaches of the US Government after the Cold War got started then was a war criminal, after all they got the ball rolling with that BS Korean War, which they preceded with the Berlin Crisis in 1948 and 1949, by putting the economic squeeze on Moscow, the US ally most indispensable to victory over the Nazis. OK, then let's put down Harry Truman as a war criminal his two unnecessary atomic bombing of Japan, which all military experts worth their salt including Dwight D Eisenhower said shouldn't go forward and even told Truman Japan would surrender with any use of this terrible weapon, which also got the damn crazy arms race started. Yeah, Truman war criminal and corrupt Missouri machine politician sounds pretty good. Oh, and yes Truman along with the help of high Western government officials started the Cold War. Read about how the Western powers started the ball rolling by not cooperating with Moscow on the war crimes trials of the Nazi gangsters, then allowed all their zones which didn't initially have the same currency to adopt the same currency but refused to allow Moscow in its zone of occupation in Germany to adopt the same currency. This meant that currency in Moscow's zone would be worth less. Then Moscow put in a land blockade of its zone to the Western powers. That's simply a matter of asserting national interests and has nothing to do with some "terrible Communist plot" nor ideology.
But "obviously" Robert McNamara's campaigning for Robert Kennedy, an anti war candidate in 1968 "shouldn't have anything to do with it." How about don't throw stones when you live in glass houses. Those who went to every war after the Second World War were engaged in war crimes, and those in charge at the time were war criminals
AD
Posted by vdb
Jul 7 2009 - 1:57pm
0 is trying to play the good guy by suggesting that the US may cut down it's nuclear stock.
Good old Harry got rid of ALL of his!
Posted by AD
Jul 8 2009 - 11:40am
As I said Harry Truman along with other Western political big wigs started the Cold War. Do look up what actually happened, not what US history text books say happened but didn't. Truman threatened to use the atomic bomb on Moscow in 1946 the year after Moscow was the most important US ally in winning that war if Moscow didn't get its army contingent then in Iran out. How's that for stabbing an ally in the back. Did the US Government ever threaten such action against Britain or any other countries aligned with the USA during that war? No it didn't. Yet the sun never sat on the British Empire. Oh, and why didn't Eastern Europe get any of that "wonderful" Marshall Plan money dumped on Western Europe in 1947? Why did the USA and Brittainia side with the Nazis, monarchists, and others who had been fighting against us in the war when Greek civil war erupted against liberals, progressives, and Communists who simply wanted to restore democracy to the birthplace of democracy? Look into these questions and see if Russia was doing anything other than pursuing its national interests in not going along with the Western powers' policies. Also NATO came into being before the East bloc. Therefore, how can anybody say the West was simply defending itself. Get real!
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40 years too late.
NYT today:
"“Mr. McNamara must not escape the lasting moral condemnation of his countrymen,” The New York Times said".
pots and kettles.
the NYT was instrumental in bush's crimes and are also deserving of lasting condemnation.
Sure.
Just goes to show you....Billy Joel is right "Only the Good Die Young".... How many good were killed by this man's decisions is criminal in Vietnam and Southeast Asia!
At least McNamara had the good manners to sort of apologize in "The Fog of War." It is quite unlikely the rouges gallery from Dubya, Cheney, & Co. will ever apologize for what they have done.
I did get the impression that McNamara had become a somewhat haunted old man, perhaps rightly so, by all that he had knowingly participated in. I expect Colin Powell will end up much like him in this respect.
"At least McNamara had the good manners to sort of apologize in "The Fog of War." It is quite unlikely the rouges gallery from Dubya, Cheney, & Co. will ever apologize for what they have done." ......good manners....??? Were you around when McNamara wanted to nuke the north/south border of VietNam? It was to be called the McNamara Line? So far we have NOT come......
Yes, in most cultures and circumstances, honestly apologizing for prior misconduct is considered good manners. In fact, it is a common complaint amongst the more elderly amongst us that those of the younger set have none. You can't have it both ways, old man.
Pile the bodies high at Austerlitz and Waterloo,
Shovel them under and let me work–
I am the grass; I cover all.
And pile them high at Gettysburg
And pile them high at Ypres and Verdun.
Shovel them under and let me work.
Two years, ten years, and passengers ask the conductor:
What place is this?
Where are we now?
I am the grass.
Let me work.
------------------Carl Sandburg
One can only hope he suffered excruciating pain before his demise, 50 years to late.
(for those who are unaware - mcnamara was also involved in the planning of the firebombing of Dresden)
I had occassion to question this sad old man face to face a few years back when he came to Hay-on-Wye pushing his "I was wrong" film and book. He seemed sincere in his regret over MAD and adament that nukes should be banned.
Frail and, indeed haunted looking, he seemed very wary to be confronted by what must have appeared to be a ghost from the 60s' protests (I am a veteran draft dodger and proud).
He was, I believe, taken aback by my controlled courtesy, but when I asked if he too felt that depleted uranium munitions (DUM) should be included in the list of nuclear weapons - all I got was a "No comment".
Bastard probably still had stocks in conventionals.
So much for being sorry.
May the bastard roast in hell for an eternity of eternities.
Oops! He made a mistake. Will the tens of thousand sodiers killed and their families forgive him? Will the tens of thousands of Vietnamese slaughtered not care? Will the rest of the world trust that we will not make similar mistakes again?
I think you meant to say Millions of Vietnamese.
I wonder if the devil has a sense of humor. Perhaps when McNamara arrives in hell, instead of using the normal lake of fire, he'll use Napalm instead.
Ha-ha, yes. That's punishment fitting the crime!
(Although to really balance out, McNamara'd have to die from Napalm for his next 3.4 million incarnated life-times. That's one heavy karma!)
the US has reconfiggered Napalm.
they're now using unleaded.
eco-friendly fire.
The comments at the Washington Post tell this story much better.
Many, many VN vets commented first hand experiences. NOT ONE POSITIVE POST IN THE WHOLE THREAD.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/
postmortem/2009/07/
robert_s_mcnamaras_legacy_--_y.html
GOOD READ!
I guess everybody in the top reaches of the US Government after the Cold War got started then was a war criminal, after all they got the ball rolling with that BS Korean War, which they preceded with the Berlin Crisis in 1948 and 1949, by putting the economic squeeze on Moscow, the US ally most indispensable to victory over the Nazis. OK, then let's put down Harry Truman as a war criminal his two unnecessary atomic bombing of Japan, which all military experts worth their salt including Dwight D Eisenhower said shouldn't go forward and even told Truman Japan would surrender with any use of this terrible weapon, which also got the damn crazy arms race started. Yeah, Truman war criminal and corrupt Missouri machine politician sounds pretty good. Oh, and yes Truman along with the help of high Western government officials started the Cold War. Read about how the Western powers started the ball rolling by not cooperating with Moscow on the war crimes trials of the Nazi gangsters, then allowed all their zones which didn't initially have the same currency to adopt the same currency but refused to allow Moscow in its zone of occupation in Germany to adopt the same currency. This meant that currency in Moscow's zone would be worth less. Then Moscow put in a land blockade of its zone to the Western powers. That's simply a matter of asserting national interests and has nothing to do with some "terrible Communist plot" nor ideology.
But "obviously" Robert McNamara's campaigning for Robert Kennedy, an anti war candidate in 1968 "shouldn't have anything to do with it." How about don't throw stones when you live in glass houses. Those who went to every war after the Second World War were engaged in war crimes, and those in charge at the time were war criminals
AD
0 is trying to play the good guy by suggesting that the US may cut down it's nuclear stock.
Good old Harry got rid of ALL of his!
As I said Harry Truman along with other Western political big wigs started the Cold War. Do look up what actually happened, not what US history text books say happened but didn't. Truman threatened to use the atomic bomb on Moscow in 1946 the year after Moscow was the most important US ally in winning that war if Moscow didn't get its army contingent then in Iran out. How's that for stabbing an ally in the back. Did the US Government ever threaten such action against Britain or any other countries aligned with the USA during that war? No it didn't. Yet the sun never sat on the British Empire. Oh, and why didn't Eastern Europe get any of that "wonderful" Marshall Plan money dumped on Western Europe in 1947? Why did the USA and Brittainia side with the Nazis, monarchists, and others who had been fighting against us in the war when Greek civil war erupted against liberals, progressives, and Communists who simply wanted to restore democracy to the birthplace of democracy? Look into these questions and see if Russia was doing anything other than pursuing its national interests in not going along with the Western powers' policies. Also NATO came into being before the East bloc. Therefore, how can anybody say the West was simply defending itself. Get real!
AD