By golly, I think these guys (pesticide producers) are on to something. They may have inadvertently discovered a way to wipe out poverty.....wipe out the poor with pesticides. I'm sure our right wing government will subsidize them heavily. Uh-oh. Wait a minute! We can't completely wipe out the poor. Who will do all the dirty work for all these wealthy assholes if we do? Let's just wipe out half of the poor and make the rest work twice as hard for half as much pay. Bangladesh....Here we come.

Do I understand correctly that EPA has the manufacturer of a toxin test its efficacy and dangers?

If correct, how do we survive?

Organic bee keepers have reported that they're bees have not been affected by colony collapse. Don't screw with Mother Nature !!!

Boycott Bayer.

Nothing surpising about them refusing to disclose their records. After all, isn't the head of that agency another hand-picked choice of gwb, and therefore able to crap on the rule of law, and spit on anyone asking for answers?

The slate must be washed clean. Everything is corrupted and poisoned under the rule of Bush. There is no hope with this criminal administration. The slate has to be washed clean.

My backyard is full of honey and bumble bees because I removed my lawn and driveway and let the space be taken over by mint, clover and weeds. I use only organic compost, and plant sunflowers to keep the weeds down. The bees love it here. I've only been stung once in two years. The only real expense is the water bill!

I suggest this strategy for those who love the bees.

Plant drought resistant plants that flower, revengegirl, and your bees will proliferate and your water bill will be reduced. It will be a lot of work in the short run, but worth the effort in the long run.

As long as you keep supporting BIG GOVERNMENT, Big Agri will keep winning and the bees will keep LOSING, DUH !!

Hellow_kitty wrote:

"When I was a kid, about twenty years ago, I used to look up in the autumn sky and see huge flocks of migrating birds that numbered in the hundreds. Now, I see fewer birds and fewer insects for birds to feed on. I see fewer honeybees and more yellow jackets and exotic invasive species. It's depressing."

My experience has been the exact opposite...... Growing up in the 60's I saw a tremendous decline in birds.... The Raptors were in big trouble, vultures in a major decline, magpies nearly wiped out, and various birds such as the sandhill cranes suffered devastating population reductions. It has been a long slow climb, but this area has an abundance of all those birds as well as numerous song birds that were once also suffering major population reductions...... I live in eastern Montana..... Your mileage may vary. We have eagles too numerous to count, we have magpies everywhere, the sandhill cranes are rapidly increasing, I see pelicans flying over, the kingfishers I remember from childhood are on the increase..... to the point that I know their call without having to see them. Kestrels, Marsh Hawks, Great Blue Herons...... And most of all I see the recovery of the turkey vulture. Turkey Vultures and Magpies are species that signal problems in the food chain early on...... They are at the end of the food chain.... eating carrion. Their diet subjects them to the most concentrated of toxins. In the late 70's when I came here, the numbers of these birds was small.... particularly the vultures. I used to wonder why not carrion eaters...... why no vultures and few magpies. The other day I drove down a country "gravel" road, and a turkey vulture tracked alongside me...... one red eye on me..... floating effortlessly on the wind. I look up and see them in numbers I remember from the early 60's in Eastern Oregon desert...... circling in the thermals, their distinctive coloration obvious...... the light colored trailing edges of the wings, the distinctive ragged appearance. I look up and I see the distinctive white flashing of black tipped wings as flocks pelicans fly from the Yellowstone river to the reservoirs on the upper Missouri river.... wheeling in close formation, the sun flashing on white wings. I see the Marsh Hawk a harrier.... cruising low over the hay fields and pastures. I hear the redtail screaming defiance to the world in it's distinctive voice. The Sandhill crane are a symphony to me.... a cacophony to some... with their strange and raucous cries. I watch them dance their mating dance behind my home...... the crooked necks of the Great Blue herons make them unmistakable as I see them wing their way up the Sweet Grass...... The stumpy wings and distinctive crest and long beak of the kingfisher flying or sitting on a wire or flying is always a pleasure to behold............ No the bird life is in fact very much on the mend.......here at least.
We must however be on the alert...... insects...... not just the honeybee are the lifeblood of much of what we depend on. We cannot rest..... and must ferret out the threats and eliminate them as they appear. None of us really wants to return to the bad old days of DDT, Dildrin, Zectran, 245T, and a host of other chemical creations that had unanticipated consequences. I would hope that we learned from DDT ..... soft egg shells.... birds that wouldn't mate, etc... and from Strychnine and 1080 that our chemical toys are not without ripple effects. We must remain on the alert. We must also NEVER forget that insects are not "bad"..... except in a very few instances, but rather they are one of the fundamental steps in the food chain for all life. That if we kill indiscriminately the consequences are often far greater than what they would otherwise bee.

Howard

Thanks for the advice andersdl. I didn't know what I was doing when I bought this place - I just knew the RV parking lot had to go! I think people can do alot to bring nature back into their yards.

I also think that moving Bee hives around on trucks to pollinate giant orchards has esentially forced bees into the industrial model of production and has added stress to the bee colonies and exposed them to more pesticides. I hear about 10% of bees in these hives die in the move. Perhaps bee keepers help bees too, but I think bees would rather stay near home in a local field, orchard or backyard.

BEES OR PESTICIDE MAKERS:
WHICH IS EPA PROTECTING?

Bees don't have any money; so it must be the pesticide makers.

Indiana University has released a research paper proving the damage that pollen from genetically modified corn seeds can affect the insects living in nearby streams and creeks because the larvae feed on the pollen.

What's it going to take and quickly before the bees and other important species are extinc to get some information about how we can save them and us along with them.

Albert Einstein said that if the bees become extinct, we only have four more years of pollinating crops.

We need information and we need it fast.
Any stonewalling by the EPA just shows whose pocket they are in.

I would also like to see all of Monsanto's data on FDA applications for it's BT corn seeds.

In the research I have read, Monsanto only presented test results on an insect NOT close in relation to the corn borer, which was the primary pest focus of the genetically modifed corn seeds. I feel if they would have given test results their BT corn seeds did not affect MORE than just one insect, there could be other reasons for the bee colony problems. But I feel the testing there was very suspect also. Monsanto's whole success is based on these genetically modified corn seeds which make up so much of the crop in the USA and abroad.

And they are not going to let anyone stand in their way to continue production, even if it means they have to develop a new species of genetically modified bees, which is huge research in itself.

Yet, recent research as released by Indiana University, the negative affects of the BT corn pollen is being tested on other insects closer in species to the corn borer. Monsanto did not do adequate testing as far as I am concerned.

Organic bee keepers are having more success at keeping their colonies.

Wonder why?

Because they don't let them feed on genetically modified seeds.

But organic produce as much as possible.

By voting with your dollars and your purchases, you are not only doing great things for the safety of our food supply, you are doing great things for the planet.

Money is all these mega corporations understand.

You can boycott these companies with your purchasing practices.

A pesticide made by Bayer called ,,, Cyclone Bee?

Lets face it, the number of HUMAN BEINGS killed by EPA and other BUSCHCO controled agencies NOT doing their jobs- doing the basic OPPOSITE of their jobs (never mind "public trust", how quaint in the Dubya Universe) must be in the THOUSANDS by now- whats a few honey bees- the rich can get honey from where-ever, the rest of can can die slow deaths along with the bees.
Or we can wake up and throw ALL THE BUMS OUT- everbody in every "civil service" job gets vetted- why- if they are tainted by BUSHCO they will effectively kill somebody, somewhere, somehow, plus bees and any other living thing...for sure...

ALIDA CORNELIUS: Monsanto is a war crimes company. They helped market and make a fortune from agent orange, and the newest type poison being spread over Columbia in the bogus war on drugs.

REVENGE GIRL: I like your 3:55 post.

STONE TOOL: Lovely rendering of the wilderness and its winged friends. Where I live there are red tailed hawks and you're so right about them sounding like screeches of defiance! In the Medicine Cards, a cool oracle that utilizes animals as message totems, the hawk is the symbol of seeing through BS, among other things. I've had recent encounters with owls, an eagle, hawks, and yep, those turkey vultures. They seem to so enjoy the way they sail on the wind when it's stirred up. Right now we're getting some wind bands from the tropical storm... the birds LOVE it.

Google: Gaucho banned in France.

This stuff has been suspect for almost 10 years, but Bayer lobbies in the EU as well as in the US. Its their best selling pesticide. Evidence so far is coincidental to use on sunflowers and sweetcorn, and the bans have been on and off. The French regulators are citing the "precautionary principle".

My neighborhood (southeast PA) has lots of bumblebees, but I haven't seen a honeybee for a couple years.

The post by AlidaCornelius if the poster-child for much of what is written here.

"Indiana University has released a research paper proving the damage that pollen from genetically modified corn seeds can affect the insects living in nearby streams and creeks because the larvae feed on the pollen."

This study was heavily criticized and the authors retracted their main claim that insects in streams are affected.

"Albert Einstein said that if the bees become extinct, we only have four more years of pollinating crops."

This is a common urban legend. Einstein never commented on bees. Honey bees were introduced into North America from Europe in modern times, and the native Americans seemed to survive OK for 30,000 years before this insect was introduced.

"Organic bee keepers are having more success at keeping their colonies."

Organic bee keepers are actually experiencing the same level of CCD as non-organic bee keepers"

The EPA evaluates risks and benefits and determines if the risks are warranted. For example, it was determined that automobiles kill order-of-magnitudes more Monarch butterflies compared to GMO pollen, but they did not ban cars and trucks. The main determiner for maintaining monarch populations is the health of over-wintering sites in mexico.

Honey bees have a real problem, but pointing to scapegoats is not a productive way to find a solution. Take the time to verify your "facts". You might be surprised where knowledge will take you.

I was pretty young when DDT came out, and my parents used it on our garden. My brother, sister, and I thought we were so smart when we learned to spell it out. We went around spelling it like we were singing a song. If I don't think about it, but just let it come, I can still spell it

Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane

Pretty good for a seventy-year-old, I think. I don't have any way to check it to see if I did get it right, but I'm pretty sure I did.

Which is EPA protecting???
Duh.
Who gave more to our corrupt congress critters and/or our Great Decider dude?? The Bees or the pesticiders?? There's your answer...

Pesticides can also weaken the bees immune systems and make them vulnerable to disease and parasites.

I remember reading an article recently about GM soy beans in england. Alergies spiked and was traced back to GM soy. The brits banned soy. May have been potatoes but pretty sure soy.

This lawsuit could be a class action against all pesticide porducers and GM seed producers ....we are all in this together with the bees...unless we start "storming the castle" we will not survive either

How about irony. I used Bayer's Checkmite to control mites on my hives--which it hasn't.

There's a vital legal question here.
If it was resolved constitutionally, US EPA regulation by secrecy would be validated as the criminal offence it already is.
But don't hold your breath.

Merely one of the ideology-driven administrative changes Bush and Co. have illicitly made to the EPA's data gathering processes on toxics, is to allow almost all of the health effects research, data gathering, and regulatory recommendation procedures for new chemical toxins to be done by the manufacturer itself.
Not just for this likely bee-killing chemical, but for virtually all manufactured chemicals throughout the trade economy.

The EPA in most cases, now only gets to perfunctorily 'review' the mfgr's submitted lab data and regulatory recommendations which (with the following, additional Catch-22), are also, thence, often disallowed from routine public scrutiny because, having been offered in confidence by the mfgr, are supposedly, legally-protected from normal public scrutiny as "proprietary trade secrets" -- by other, legal loopholes.

Crazier still, if any honest official at EPA manages to disagree with mfgr's data and reg recommendations (before being fired), and the agency finds itself compelled to challenge the mfgr's input, EPA must then itself go thru complicated, courtroom legal steps to challenge both the mfgr's data and mfgr's self-set regs, AND the existing applications of "proprietary trade secrets" designations to the case under review.

And if all of these roadblocks fail to protect the mfgr from sensible regulation of its product, there is always the parallel, massive loophole that allows the mfgr to initially self-declare any new, officially untested Active toxin in a 'formulated product' as being "not an Active ingredient" at all, but instead an inactive, "Inert ingredient." (Mfgr-designated "Inert ingredients" are not subject to any review whatsoever, unless the mfgr designation is subsequently, successfully and cumbersomely challenged by EPA thru another series of review processes entirely.)

The net effect of this last loophole being that, most of the most toxic 'new' ingredients in pesticide formulation products are listed as "Inerts" and thus escape any pre-marketing, independent government review before the general public buys them.

If you read the EPA's charter, written by congressional statute decades ago, it clearly makes the agency's internal scientists and labs responsible for primary data collection and reg recommendations RE both known and suspected toxics, plus answerable -- not to the president for dissemination of findings, but -- directly to congress and the public.
There is no legal doubt that the current arrangement of the fox guarding the hen house violates the intent of EPA enabling charter.

About a half dozen lawsuits have been filed by environmental orgs over the past few years, seeking a definitive higher court ruling on these proceedural vs statutory questions --all of which remained bogged down in various lower courts by various Administration delaying tactics, including via the bogusly applied, very recent neocon claims of Executive Privilege and Sovereign Immunity.

If the public only knew what was happening!
Not just to US environmental law, but to their physical environment and their personal bodies, then surely there would be an outcry - and change. But Really Surely? Well.....

For reasons I've no one seems able to explain, even the best, least corrupted national environmental orgs have never seen fit to publicly broadcast to the public the legal scandal that underlies the environmental scandal regarding toxics.
Apparently, these environmental orgs don't want to 'upset' the entrenched sociopaths they're forced to deal with every day. (just my theory, of course...

Unless this kind of US regulatory charade is reversed decisively and soon, certain outcomes won't be avoidable no matter what we do thereafter. To quote what another CD poster recently wrote about China's environmental future: We Will Be Screwed.

We cannot let this situation worsen!

There are numerous, peer-reviewd data bases available on this issue, to inform yourself by and form your own conslusions by.
The quickest way to access a general listing is by Googling something like: Health Effects of Environmental Toxins - Global Databases.
Concise but very useful databases are findable more quickly via the US based orgs: Human Ecology Action League (H.E.A.L), and Chemical Injury Information Network (CIIN.)

I was shocked when the "supreme" Court gave the election to little bush - nothing has shocked me since.

Who needs bees? Monsantoe proprietary pollen will be sprayed from now on. This new industrial sector will create thousands of high-paying jobs. Santa Clause is coming to town!

What hogwash most of the posters proclaim. Do people really think this way?????? Goucho, a trade name for the chem in question is a synthetic pyrethroid. One of the main reasons to use it issssss because of its safety to humans and non targeted insects.
I am a farmer. I observe honey bees in my fields all the time. I also use Goucho. In fact......the commerical honey farmers like to put their hives next to a canola field, as the amount of honey harvested is vast. Then they go to the clover, alfalfa, sunflowers, etc. I don't know what some of you people think, but you need true information rather than this gobblygook stuff.
The Indiana study, per scientific reveiw, was totally flawed. There has not been one peer reviewed study that has indicated the BT gene is bad. Oh well.
As for the birds and the bees. I love seeing the re-imergence of the Bald Eagle in my area. Also the turkey vultures, turkeys, quail, ducks, geese. OH well, somehow they seem to be doing realllllllllly well.

And one other point:
Anything that can reduce the use of organophosphate chemistry is a boon for all.

Why is there never any mention of GM crops and what effect they are having on the bees?

Mr. (Not-So) Obvious writes re: the "Indiana University study":

>This study was heavily criticized and the authors retracted their main claim that insects in streams are affected.

...and then continues:

>Honey bees have a real problem, but pointing to scapegoats is not a productive way to find a solution. Take the time to verify your "facts". You might be surprised where knowledge will take you.

Well, speaking of "facts".....Mr. Obvious, with all due respect I'd like to see some hard evidence to back up your own claims. Because first of all, I believe the study that is being referred to here is not that of "Indiana University" but more likely that of Purdue University (which happens to reside in Indiana, and has a well-known Dept. of Entomology that has been doing research on pesticides for some time now.

"Heavily criticized" ......by whom? Monsanto? The chief lobbyist for the pesticide cartel?

I might also point out (as I'm sure you are aware), that many universities (like Purdue) receive research funding from these very same agribusiness interests that are often responsible for such environmental catastrophes. So even if you can enlighten us by pointing to this alleged "heavily criticized" and "redacted" study, we'd have to look it over very carefully to see who exactly was offering this "heavy" criticism.

I am glad that you agree that honeybees (and as a result, humanity) have a "real problem." I've been following research on this topic for a while now, and one thing we can say for certain is CCD didn't just come about on its own. Whether due to pesticides, global warming, erosion of habitat, exotic viruses, etc, or a combination or all of the above, these factors all have one thing in common. They are caused by.....us. Humans. If anyone does not realize the impact, or how serious this situation is, I suggest you watch the video here for an introduction:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/silence-of-the-bees/introduction/38/

So, Mr. Obvious.....please go ahead. Enlighten me. And BTW, do you work for Monsanto? Or the EPA?

Before Bees became a commercial interest they were considered a spirit and a messanger. They know alot about reproduction so thier passing is loss of vital information.

"controlled field studies have demonstrated that clothianidin, when used correctly, will not harm bees"

You can say the same thing for science also - "controlled field studies have demonstrated that clothianidin science, when used correctly, will not harm bees Humans".

I have a feeling that some corporate scientist is hard at work genetically modifying honneybees to be resistant to its own pesticides.

I guess it would not be such a bad thing if those "Africanized" bees would spread across the North American continent, at least then they'll have more of a fighting stinging chance for survival. Thoz baaad muthas are gonna kill you...

I am aware of the racial connotation of the term "Africanized" and how all things from from Africa are believed to be more violent by the majority. (I am also aware that the term "majority" is a term used to describe less than 1/3 of the worlds population as it is commonly used to refer to the white power structure).

Okay, I'm done...

All I know is that my 10 zuchini plants did horribly and I see very few bees and every house on my steet uses chemical spraying on their "beautiful" lawns. Nothing to see here, move along.

I have stated before that...
GM crops are contaminating the natural versions of the plants that the earth has developed over millions of years; the bees have perhaps been here as long. If we change the substance of the food that bees eat will they get the nutrition they need to survive? I think that GM foods are the culprit and the companies which produce these crops will soon be selling farmer's gene altered bees. Companies like Bayer, and Monsanto have too much power in the congressional lobbies, they must be stopped. Thanks GB
...And I have say it agian...

When you think of global changes in the past few years, what would we do if the problem turned out to be cell phone radio frequencies? (I know the odds of that are zero, but what would we do?)

biomusicologist - You prove my point. Purdue was not involved in the research on GM crops in field ditches as you suggest, and I am sure that they are quite happy not to be associated with this paper. The lead author is actually from Layola University in Chicago, but a co-author is from Indiana University. The critics are other professors, and their letters are published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, along with the Authors subsequent admission that their main conclusion was not supported by their data. More troubling is that these same authors simultaneously presented additional findings elsewhere that made opposite conclusions. This is why it is useful to punch a few more keys and try to substantiate accusations. You seem quite willing to accept the original posting as fact, but not consider that my comments may be accurate. Do a little googling and see if you can actually find some data.

The letter(P) in EPA should stand for PUKE.

Sigurdur11? Those commercial honey harvesters you speak of are losing hives to the tune of about 30% despite their wonderful habit of putting hives next to GM canola fields.
To what do you attribute CCD?

I'd guess ~SIGURDUR 11~ doesn't have to purchase any cattle or commercial bullshit to use for fertillizer for his farm. Your farm anywhere near Crawford, Texas ~Siggy~? You Global Warming 'denier', Bush supporting bullshit artist.

Capitalism is the religion of Satanic greed, and our politicians are its High Priests.

I've been boycotting Bayer for several years. Their scientists were conducting "scientific" research on prisoners at Auschwitz virtually shoulder to shoulder with Mengele. Those "studies" and marketing to the Nazis of their poisons was a foundation for their business. Some business! There is no excuse whatsoever for results of studies to be kept secret. Government fascists in action. We don't need to shrink portions of the government which act in the public interest. Privatization (shrinking the government) is the method for transferring over nefarious corporate conduct to prevent the public from having oversight of those things which threaten public interests and safety. Be very careful about scientific studies. The chemical industry has been playing with the studies to refute studies that might threaten their bottom lines for a long time. They've established institutes to legitimize propaganda similar to the now defunct Tobacco Institute?