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TechnoratiChristians United for Israel and Attacking Iran
Though the national sentiment favors wrapping up the Iraq War, there exists a small but powerful movement for starting a new military conflict with Iran. The bipartisan drumbeats for aggression reverberate throughout the corridors of Congress. House Resolution 362 and Senate Resolution 580, for example, call on the United States to prevent Iran from "acquiring a nuclear weapons capability through all appropriate economic, political, and diplomatic means."
The House's Iran resolution, sponsored by Representative Gary Ackerman (D-NY), demands the president impose "stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran." This legislation effectively requires a blockade on Iran which is considered by international law as an act of war. The Senate's Iran resolution, sponsored by Senator Evan Bayh (D-IN), would require a ban on "the importation of refined petroleum products to Iran." Neither resolution offers evidence on Iran's alleged pursuit of a nuclear weapon. Both neglect to mention any sanctions against the only country known to actually have developed nuclear weapons in the Middle East: Israel.
Evoking Orwellian 2+2=5 logic, both Congressmen have offered sanctions as the means to avoid war by applying economic pressure on Iran. Yet sanctions rarely achieve their intended objective. For instance, unilateral U.S. sanctions failed to topple the Cuban, Iraqi and Libyan governments. They punished (and in Cuba's case, continue to punish) civilians instead.
Washington-Israel Summit
The "squeeze Iran" and "confront Iran" positions are strongly encouraged by the increasingly powerful Zionist Christian Fundamentalist community. About 5,000 people from across the United States attended the third annual Washington-Israel Summit, organized by Christians United for Israel (CUFI). There, the "Iranian threat" loomed as a pervasive theme.
"What do you do with a maniac like Ahmadinejad? I'm not sure diplomacy works," Gary Bauer, President of American Values and a CUFI executive board member, told the crowd during the July 22 "Middle East Intelligence Briefing." Another panelist, Representative Mike Pence (R-IN), urged the attendees to make their support for HR 362 known to their members of Congress.
We attended this "the Rapture" meets "Clash of Civilizations" session - on the only day open to the press. We listened to the never-ending chorus from Bauer, Pence, Representative Elliot Engel (D-NY), and The Weekly Standard editor William Kristol who kept telling the assembled crowd why Americans must fear "Islamo-fascists"/"Islamo-radicals"/"death worshippers," and their other scary names for Muslims. Panels curiously closed to the press at the three-day conference included "Iran: Eye of the Storm," "Radical Islam: In Their Own Words" and "How to Stop Funding the Enemy: Divestment, Sanctions and Boycotts."
As Muslims, we attended the summit to learn more about CUFI. What we found was disturbing. Being well-received and courteously treated by the pleasant staff of a conference that talks of Muslims as "death worshippers" was a truly paradoxical experience. We also found it ironic that the organization's acronym, CUFI, is pronounced like kufi, an Arabic word for the short, rounded prayer cap worn by devout Muslim men.
John Hagee
John Hagee (whose name was recently in the news for ties to John McCain, who subsequently distanced himself from the Texas megachurch pastor), founded CUFI in 2006. According to its statement of purpose, the group seeks to "provide a national association through which every pro-Israel church, parachurch organization, ministry, or individual in American can speak and act with one voice in support of Israel in matters related to Biblical issues." Christian Zionists believe that support for Israel is not only mandated by God but is required in order to hasten the second coming of Christ (the End Times). They predicate their support for Israel on a desire to bring on Armageddon, and therefore push for policies that they believe will make this happen faster. Their "support" for Jews comes with a major and ironic caveat: after the second coming of Christ, Jews are required to convert to Christianity or else be left behind with the other "non-believers," like Muslims. Prior to starting CUFI, Hagee published a related, and equally disturbing, book called Jerusalem Countdown.
Those who don't subscribe to this religious interpretation too often dismiss Hagee and CUFI as "kooky." It's even kookier to ignore Christian Zionists' influence on U.S.-Middle East policy. In fact, Hagee, who also leads the 18,000-strong Cornerstone Church in Texas, would like to see CUFI become "the Christian version of AIPAC," (Read Max Blumenthal's article "Birth Pangs of a New Christian Zionism," published in The Nation's August 8, 2006 issue, for more about this.)
According to the Nation article, White House officials met with CUFI leaders in 2006 in a series of off-the-record meetings to discuss its policies in the Middle East. "CUFI's Washington lobbyist, David Brog, told me that during the meetings, CUFI representatives pressed White House officials to adopt a more confrontational posture toward Iran, refuse aid to the Palestinians and give Israel a free hand as it ramped up its military conflict with Hezbollah," Blumenthal wrote. Brog, who serves as CUFI's Executive Director, couldn't disclose who CUFI leaders met with at the White House.
CUFI's unequivocal "support for Israel" means the United States should stand against Zion's "enemies" - Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and any serious Arab-Israeli peace agreement. This parallels policies advocated by prominent neoconservatives who have served in George W. Bush's administration, including Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, David Wurmser, Douglas Feith, and Elliott Abrams.
CUFI's 'Middle East Intelligence Briefing'
Just so readers don't think speakers at the "Middle East Intelligence Briefing" pandered to the audience, compare CUFI's positions to what supposedly reasonable members of Congress declared on the same issue. Being "committed to Israel" has come to mean passing congressional resolutions that vitiate rational, constructive policy towards Israel and its Middle Eastern neighbors. For example, Engel received a rousing standing ovation when he declared: "I don't think the U.S. needs to be even-handed in the Middle East - it needs to stand with and behind our only ally, Israel." Demonstrating the Congressman's resolve to support legislation targeting Israel's "enemies," Engel sponsored the 2003 Syria Accountability Act in the House, which led to the imposition of U.S. trade sanctions against Damascus.
Parroting Engel, Pence reiterated, "As the election approaches it will be a time of choosing. America's role is not to be an honest broker in the Middle East. It begins with standing for the security and interests of Israel." What kind of message does that send to Arabs, Persians, and Muslims in the region - the majority of whom would like to see peace and political, social, and economic development reign supreme over lingering war, occupation, and enmity?
"Iran reminds me of Adolf Hitler," Engel told the crowd of young, middle-aged, and old folks. "When Ahmadinejad says he wants to wipe Israel off the map, he means it. He'd do it to the U.S. and Europe if he could." Engel then added, "We need to look at the world as it is - there's no way we can sit idly by and allow Iran to build a bomb. Iran is not doing this for peaceful reasons...Iran is the largest sponsor of terror in the world - in Lebanon, Syria..."
Even worse, according to the Congressman, "We find Iranians making inroads in South America with Bolivia and Venezuela. Iranians have no business in the Western Hemisphere." The paranoia around Iran is so great that relatively small trade deals between South American countries and Iran is viewed as a threat. Not to be outdone, Pence offered this nightmare scenario on Iran: "This is a perilous time with the menacing pronouncements of Ahmadinejad. God forbid the next Holocaust will not require camps but one missile and one bomb and 17 minutes of flight. Americans, Democrats and Republicans, are coming together to place more pressure on Iran until it abandons nuclear weapons." Thunderous applause ensued. Some in the crowd even raised their hands in the air, presumably to pay homage to an Iran-hating God.
Hearing these hostile pronouncements on Iran, without context, history or mention of the 70 million Iranian people, we both wondered if the Congressmen or expert speakers had actually read the December 2007 National Intelligence Estimate on Iran, which concluded that Iran did not have a nuclear weapon or program to build a nuclear weapon? In another instance of dubious credibility, Kristol praised the U.S. surge in Iraq, exclaiming, "We're on the verge of winning the war on Iraq!" He warned that the consequences of an early U.S. withdrawal would be "catastrophic," without explaining how the U.S. occupation of Iraq has brought any modicum of stability in the first place. He didn't mention the catastrophe for more than 4 million displaced Iraqis, whose destinies, alongside other Iraqis, have been altered by the war and occupation, or the wounded and broken U.S. veterans, who too often lack adequate medical care upon returning home. "We understand our enemies and we will win this war," Kristol concluded. "We can win this war against jihadists who worship war, kill Israelis, and Americans."
After the two-hour briefing, we headed toward the exit of the Convention Center. Later that evening, Senator Joseph Lieberman (I-CT) would address the "Night to Honor Israel Banquet," alongside Hagee and Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Sallai Meridor. We walked past the "Daughters for Zion" booth and another booth selling "Treasures of the Holy Land" - shiny, golden menorahs and ornate ceramic plates with the image of Old Jerusalem. (A sign assured that all those tchochkes were made in Israel, not a Chinese factory.) One would never have known that Muslims also share and inhabit the Holy Land, after spending a day at the conference.
United Against Muslims
Ultimately, what we found most disturbing about the Summit is how this group of Jews and Christians, Democrats and Republicans, managed to get past their differences to unite against their Muslim enemy. As Muslims, we never felt any hostility toward us personally, but rather a hostility towards the entire Muslim world for being a threat to the Western civilization shared by Christian and Jews (at least white Christians and Jews). We never heard any of the panelists explicitly say, "Muslims are evil." However, the same message was finessed with the excessive use of the trendier, post 9/11 term, "Islamo-facists," and its equivalents, "Islamo-radicals," "jihadists" and "death-worshippers."
William Kristol did mention that more Muslims have died fighting against terror than any other people. But he never managed to follow up with how Christians and Jews, if truly interested in promoting democracy and human rights around the world, could or should partner with those of the third faith of the Abrahamic religions, Muslims. Instead, it felt as though we were witnessing the manifestation of Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" thesis inside the convention center's halls.
Pence assured the audience "We're not beating the drum for war. Peace for Israel is through strength alone." Yet can there truly be peace for Israel alone in the small part of the world we call the Middle East? We think not. Christians United for Israel isn't the type of organization that will help advance a Middle East peace process. Nor can it help facilitate a constructive peace making role for the United States. What's needed is a movement of all people united for a peaceful and just Middle East.
Dedrick Muhammad is the senior organizer and research associate for the Program on Inequality and the Common Good and Farrah Hassen is the 2008 Carol Jean and Edward F. Newman Fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies. They are contributors to Foreign Policy In Focus.
Copyright © 2008, Institute for Policy Studies
71 Comments so far
Show AllPity that I can't see who wrote what anymore. Are the old names coming back after the change over?
It's not Christianity that the world needs to fear and/or hate, but Christian fundamentalists like Hagee and the perpetrators of, for instance, the Inquisition, and the modern Christians who think African women who are regularly raped should not be allowed condoms for protection on religious grounds.
Just as it is not Islam, but the tiny percentage of Muslims who seek to dominate and/or kill those who don't buy into their fundamentalist interpretation of their religion.
Just as it is not Judaism, but those Jewish and Christian Zionists who excuse Israel's brutal and illegal occupation and land-stealing as all right because "God's will" is for Israel to have it all (and for the Palestinians? who knows?.
John McCain may possibly choose Big-Time-Totally-Committed Zionist Joe Lieberman, a guest speaker at the above event, as his vice president. What does that say about McCain?? Poor America. Poor Palestine. Poor World.
AAaagh, I feel like I'm in freshman philosophy class ("If you had the opportunity to go back in time and kill Hitler, would you do it ?" etc ). No, Lisa, I would not support the killing of Hagee (I wouldn't go back and kill Hitler either, there are much more creative ways of solving the problem). Truth and logic must dictate our actions. Whenever they are based on pure emotion and fuzzy thinking (which hypotheticals tend to be) the wrong course is often taken, path to hell- good intentions et al. We as humans have far more creative power than "do it my/our way or perish". We are stuck in a rut of violence, it's time to evolve. If we don't, then we'll be just another dog on the pile.
Lisa no way. You shouldn't advocate killing anybody no matter how bad they are. Why make the guy a marytr anyways?
Siouxrose the CIA theory is doubtful. Remember it was the CIA and intelligence agencies that had the report against nukes in Iran. Also Valerie Plame was working against the bad guys and was outted by rove et all. CIA also said there was no weapons in Iraq until the administration doctored their intelligence. I don't think CIA is behing Hagee at all. I think its AIPAC as he seems to have a cozy relationship with them. AIPAC certainly chooses strange bedfellows given Hagees racism towards Jewish people.
Excellent posts: MEDUSA, HELLO DARLING, EILEEN FLEMMING, COPERNICUS & ALEX LAWYER.
My intuition told me upon reading this article, that it would not be beyond our CIA to plant someone like a HAGEE into a church, give him a megaphone, misuse the idea that he had some form of Divine authority to lend legitimacy to wars of conquest? In other words, the huge success of a number of these televangelicals, who through Gary Bauer and even persons like David Duke, tend to function as beacons to reliable voting blocks for conservative causes (anti-abortion their group think magic mantra, perfect Pavlovian response trigger).. could not a few have been set up by CIA money?
These groups get outreach on TV on a number of channels, 700 club, etc. They have a publishing industry of their own that's made over 1 BILLION a year, they have radio stations, get their message across even through "Christian rock," and some huge event at the Coors-family beer stadium, I think somewhere in Colorado. They have mega churches that raise tons of money. I mean we already see an unsavory melding of church and state, sadly to further global policies of aggresion (to this group anything done in 'god's name' requires no further scrutiny), so why would it be a stretch to see CIA style $ invested in such efficient programs & programming devices?
6923; Hi. Granted. Lemme ask you a question if I may. CUFI is actively advocating for a war that could kill milllions of people.
If Hagee's death would stop this process would you support it?
Would you do the deed to save a million People?
Yes or No? Hundreds of thousands of the dead will be babies, children and women.
I would see his death as a gift of life.
You find this antithetical to peace?
ENOUGH ALREADY!!! with all this warmongering, fearmongering,greed, stealing, hatred, killings, weapons of mass destruction. How about some peacemongering and starting to take care of our planet. We have no other place to go.
CUFI and others of their ilk are no more Christians than suicide bombers are Muslim. If their "god" were of any consequence to them they would have the faith to know that such a "god" is quite powerful enough to bring about Armageddon (as their own scriptures plainly indicate) and would not impose their agenda on the Almighty.
AS far as Gary Bauer's cynical estimation of Ahmidinijad, my question is "compared to whom?" One would think that sooner or later these people would wise up to the way they have been and currently are being used and exploited by political hacks.
Funny how America and Israel, two countries that have started two of the more recent wars, want to start another one with Iran to preserve peace. Ministry of Truth material for sure.
For a "Peaceful" person, Lisa, you sure have violent fantasies. Or is it OK to be violent, as long as it's directed against the
"wrong/right" people ?
Hope Russia supports Iran and stops US/IS from murdering more people around the world.
biwee said he wants "to learn more about Jesus of Nazareth, the early Christian church, and the development of the Bible. This has been difficult, as the formal record of all from a historical perspective is thin."
That's what I thought too, until I "discovered" the Eastern Orthodox Church. We (yes, I converted) have consistently maintained the historical witness of the first century Church and there is a wealth of information/documentation available if you care to look. Western Christianity likes to think "true" Christianity began with the Reformation but that's simply not true. You can't "recreate" first-century Christianity because it was never lost in the first place.
The whole notion of the need for a restoration of Israel as a nation as a prelude to the 2nd Coming is pure heresy, in the classic sense of the word. Israel relinquished its claim to be God's "Chosen people" a long time ago, and the "new Israel" is a spiritual one, not a political or military one. Stop blaming God for what we ourselves have created; these evangelicals are not Christians.
This Hagee Murdere says he wants to Hastenthe End Times.
Jesus clearly stated that we do not know, cannot and will not know the day of Judgement.
That we must always be ready (repentant of sin and of faith in Jesus)
Thus the idea that a person can manipulate the day of judgement goes agaisnt the teachings of Jesus Christ.
No big deal, I'd head-shoot Hagee on TV if I could.
SweetDreams.
The Christian right has a lot for which to answer. It was their gleeful support that has enabled two wars of aggression and the slaughter of over a million people, widespread torture, repudiation of the Geneva conventions, blatant fraud and war profiteering, abuse of prosecutorial power for political ends, illegal spying on Americans, irresponsible environmental policy, recession, tax breaks for the rich, massive deficit spending, denial of healthcare to children and the rest of the foul agenda. They call themselves values voters, but morality for them concerns only matters dealing with other people's genitals. They have no scruples, no shame and no discernible connection with Jesus.
hardtruth ((9:32pm)
You well describe what seems to be a problem, but probe no reasons as to why or offer any concrete solutions.
But I agree with you up to a point. It's a good hunch that most of us CD progressives aren't real politically active just now, beyond blogging. If we were, chances are we'd be sharing our hands-on experiences right here, far more often than we do. Either that, or we'd all be too busy out in the field to theorize so much online.
Got to consider, though: It's likely most of us ain't rich, and that many of us probably work at unlovable jobs to the point of daily exhaustion, just to stay afloat. So maybe most progs, here at CD anyway, are doing the best they can: At least not dozing off in front of a TV every night, but instead trying to share thoughts, hopes, general info (and yes, sometimes too many whiney commiserations) with a of simulacrum of kindred spirits.
There can be benefit to this, if that's all the situation allows --don't you think?
Consider too that most CD posters can't By Definition easily connect to the same kind of crazed inner energy that so easily propels unthinking fanatics and absolutists - like our Christian Zionist friends.
Our heads and spirits just aren't put together that way - thank the fates.
Again: Probably, most of us should be doing more 'in the field.' But I would't know how to say Who Here those us's are - would you?
And I won't embarrass you by asking what and how much You're doing by contrast.
If you posted some inspired, sepcific suggestions, hardtruth, it might be better than collective (and possibly hypocritical) guilt tripping of people you really don't know.
Just a friendly thought.
This unholy alliance of the Zionists, Fundamentalists Christians, and Ultra Right Wing US politics is just about as big a mess as can be imagined.
All three groups think they can easily dispense with the other two once the other two have helped them achieve their objectives.
In fact the three are going to find themselves so tangled up together that not even the groups themselves will be able to tell where one ends and the other two start.
I agree with whoever said that they are going to get us all killed.
What is the US doing meddling in other country's affairs? Has Iran threatened death and destruction to this country? I think not. The idiot christian right and the israel right or wrong mob deserve each other and should be bought in closer contact with each other say on the backside of the moon. A pox on the lot unfortunately they have the ear of the administration and some of the congress . When is someone with some gumption in Congress going to introduce a bill to impeach Bush? It would pay if those endtime predictors read about the past predictions, they all had the same characteristics they were based on the book of revelations and they were all wrong.
The US is become more superfluous everyday unfortunately it is still very dangerous. Mind you the Iranian dimwits in charge don't help matters, theocracies don't work well and Iran is one of the worst, it does its part in giving Islam a bad name, they should be on the backside of the moon with the others.
matex August 18th, 2008 7:08 pm
Snakes! You got snakes???? Hoboyy!!
And who says the end-time biblical prophecies do not come to pass? This is just the beginning.
There are followers of Jesus who consider the USA to be either a beast kingdom of Revelation or Mystery Babylon that builds the globalist system of the Beast with Mystery Babylon being the prime builder of this globalist beast system.
If the USA is either a beast kingdom, or Mystery Babylon, or even the Beast of Revelation then people like Hagee would be worshipping the beast & the image of the beast thinking this beast is doing God's work while all along this beast has been doing the devil's work.
As a globalist beast system this beast system has to subdue the nations of the earth & bring them into this beast system.
God has already foretold that people like Hagee & those of other religions will be killing thinking they are doing him a favor.
Jesus didn't give any indication he came to start a new religon. He wasn't at all pleased with the religious political pharisees of that time. Jesus did not instruct his disciples to purposely kill any person. Jesus did not instruct his disciples to join the world of man's armies, or to invade nations of other people to kill them.
What Jesus did teach was his Father's Spiritual Kingdom that is not of the world of man nor worldly things.
When the son of god showed up a couple thousand years ago he got a helluva rude awakening. After he got back home he asked his pop. "man, what'd you sent me that god forsaken place for?". "Sorry about that son, I thought maybe you could do something to help out. I sort of fucked that one up and was hoping you could set it right." "Thanks dad, but I'd rather not try and undo your fuck ups, especially that place. Christ, what were you drunk when you made those humanoid creatures? They're bat shit". "I know, I know, well it was just one of those nights, your mother and I....oh never mind."
Let me get one thing straight, I'm not against true Christians who believe in Love Thy Neighbor and Do onto others as you want them to do onto to you. This is not about them. It's about the apocalyptical Zionist warmongering death cult known as Christian Fundamentalism which preaches Triumphilism, and Amerika and Zionist Israel uber alles.
Did anyone hear John McCain's smug and self-righteous answer to the question about when the embryo's rights begin? Why didn't someone also ask him when did marriage vows change from promising to love, honor, and cherish through sickness and health etc. He abandoned his wife and mother of his children after she was injured in an accident and was left with a noticeable limp, to commit adultery with his present wife Cindy.
What kind of country would consider placing a known adulterer in the White House? A senile one at that. A Bush Republican. eewww!
"Didn't Jesus preach about turning the other cheek and loving one's enemy? I don't see much of that in America's dominant religion. Ooops, sorry, there I go again. Shame on me"
"Ooops" is all that you can say ? Try engaging brain before putting mouth into gear . You missed the sine non quo of the Sermon on the Mount which in itself is the Magna Carta , the sine non quo of Christianity and all you can say is "ooops". Curl up in your flag and go back to sleep.
These people are going to get us all killed.
Native Son (1:54 p.m.) got it exactly right:
"Why would 'God' need so much help, or approval, or any other assistance from so many mortal human beings—to accomplish "HIS" PURPOSES?"
To which I add, Why are these zealots trying to change God's timetable for those precious End Times?
Hey, what's the diference between a bunch of kooky right wing American Christian Zionists, and progressive readers of CD?
The crazy Zionist rapture loving Christians have meetings, plan strategies, bring those strategies to the kooky Christians in power, and make sure their policies are acted upon.
Progressives sit at home posting angry, pathetic, vitriolic diatribes on CD (often arguing with one another on matters concerning the number of angels that can dance on a pinhead), and then cry themselves to sleep.
They are organized. We are self-righteously and ineffectually correct.
CUFI 'Christians' do NOT want peace; they want a nuclear holocaust. These religious fundamentalists adhere to an escapist and heretical theology and are the base for the neo-con ideology.
Before Emperor Constantine brought Christianity into the mainstream, NO Christian ever served in the army- but instead willingly suffered rather than inflict harm on any other.
Violence was once understood to be anti-Christ.
The term Christianity was not even coined until three decades after Jesus walked the earth.
Until the day of Paul, followers of Christ were called members of The Way; the way being what he taught-such as the Peacemakers are the children of God.
Jesus while never a Christian, was a social justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up [intifada in Arabic] and challenged the job security of the Temple authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God already LOVED them just as they were: sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.
What got Jesus crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces of his time, by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant.
Two thousand years ago the Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning and was not a piece of jewelry.
When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me," everyone back then understood he was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any others who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces, for crucification was the Roman Occupying Forces method of torture and capitol punishment.
e
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
hellodarling August 18th, 2008 2:57 pm
========================
Well said.
What do you do with a maniac like G W Bush?
Especially when the people are afraid to stand up for freedom and democracy.
I guess you hide and wait for another election to see what is pulled out of the sack.
"What do you do with a maniac like Ahmadinejad? I'm not sure diplomacy works,"
Ahmenijad is wrong when he says there are no Gays in Iran. He is wrong
on several fronts. But that is not the point. Despite constant
demonisation, he is not a maniac. If you actually read what he says,
they mostly seem quite sane. I would not put him into the same basket
as maniacs Bush, Hagee or Gary Bauer.
And one thing for sure, is that the USA has not been anything like
reasonable. They have not seriously tried diplomacy. Ahmadinejad has
bothered to visit the USA in a very genuine attempt at diplomacy, only
to be insulted left, right and centre, with lies and with more
demonisation.
Us Southerners, I often think just how dumb we are especially when we are religious especially we Baptist remember Rev. Martin Luther King or how about Jimmy Carter or CD,s commentator Bill Moyers. Then there's the Methodist turning on their own President Bush for his war. I think I go get in line to worship some rocks if there is no snakes to handle.
Well as all you smart folks know us dumb Southerners can't figger nothing out for ourselves.
American 'religion' has reached the wrong side of sanity. What human can have a religious experience in the MegaloMalls topped by whitewashed roons? Selfserving demigogs posing as Demiurge destroy humanity by brainwashing or bashing with stone tablets.
To learn about the spirit start with Joseph Campbell and keep going. The quest to see the Holy Grail unvailed always starts and ends in one's own heart and it is a disgrace to go in a group. Some people wander in a desert or a forest and some people meditate in a cave or under a tree for a long time or for a short time - it is everyone's vision quest to find their own God, their own place in this universe. Another's god just won't do regardless of how it's packaged or delivered to your door.
Jesus would get along with the rulers of today's empire just about as well as he got along with the rulers of the Roman empire. It would only be a matter of time before they nailed the peace-loving hippie to another cross.
When I used to live in the South, the second commandment used to crack me up. In the South, there was a strong drive to carve the 10 commandments into stone and place them into public places. They then became essentially objects of worship. In essence, graven images.
So, there were Christians in the South who never seemed able to spot the irony of created a graven image to worship of the 10 commandments when the second commandment carved into that very stone very explicitly said "don't do this!".
At times, I find it easy to rail against the right-wing Christians. With their pro-war, pro-murder, pro-torture stances that are so opposite from anything Jesus taught, its easy to do. And its easy to extend that to all Christians.
But the latter is wrong. For instance, I'm sure they just had the annual demonstrations and marches outside Oak Ridge Tennessee to mark the Hiroshima anniversary. When I lived back east and had a chance to attend these events, I was struck by the number of peaceful Christians who put their lives on the line to protest something as evil as a nuclear bomb.
Or, when I could get to the School of the Americas protests the weekend before Thanksgiving, I was struck by the large crowd of Christians there celebrating peace and justice.
In both cases, there are dedicated Christians willing to risk six months in a federal pen for what are largely symbolic acts of protest against war and destruction.
Anytime I'm tempted to rail against all Christians because of the right-wing nutters, I remember these people I've met. I'd strongly recommend that anyone tempted to rail in general against 'christians' go to these events or similar events and meet people like this. Its a powerful reminder that not all 'christians' are right-wing nut cases who hate muslims.
I am amazed that people actually think that close to 2 billion Christians all believe in the same theology much less the same politics. Do you really think the Palestinian Christians believe in this BS. The jump start the apocalypse theory is held by a very tiny minority. Yet commits here make it seem an all in composing Christian Idea. I hope while you're studying Buddhism you make some sort of connection to some actual Buddhist and learn what they actually believe in that many faceted religion, you may find that the commonly held tenets of US suburban Buddhism is consider weird to the average ethnic Buddhist. Among the peace loving Buddhist you can list Imperial Japan, China, Sri Lanka(been at war since the 1960's) and I don't really need to start on the blood letting of Atheistic countries remember Stalin's USSR.
This article starts with a mention of HCR 362, a resolution which effectively demands of Bush that he place a naval blockade on Iran, an act of war. It now has over 250 Congressional Co-sponsors, and is currently sitting in the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, waiting no doubt for some manufactured crisis to shake it loose. To date it has still not been reported - or even mentioned - on the national networks (including NPR!) or in the New York Times, WashPost and other national newspapers, except for an article on the CBS Website! It is safe to assume most Americans haven't heard of it.
Despite this impressive absence of coverage, progressives, when we finally heard about it, were able to bring significant pressure on Congress, and Congressman Wexler bravely publicly withdrew his co-sponsorship of it and held it up in committee for review. (He is under heavy attack, and needs help from us now in his re-election bid!. Send money!) But we NEED this news to get out to the people, before some wave of war hysteria makes real debate impossible!
Read up on HCR 362. Then email your list, call your representatives, call Wexler and others on the Foreign Affairs committee, call your editors and news directors, get your organizations to take a position against 362 and make sure it is used to bring pressure to bear. The holocaust you stop may be your own!
Commandement 1: Thou shall have no other gods before me.
Christians have 3 (father, son, holy ghost, plus a goddess in the virgin. The saints are quite god-like too having power to grants wishes in prayer.
Number 2: No graven images: Christianity is full of them including that of the crucified Christ. Idolatry is the name for this and it is forbidden.
Number 3: Do not take the name of the lord in vain. Jesus this is a tough one.
Number 4: Keep the sabath holy. Christians changed it to Sunday like it was nothing.
5. Honor they father and mother.. Largely kept
6 Thou shall not kill. Except......Christians are very often killing, as in wars and the death penalty.
7-Thou shall not commit adultery.... I don't know. None of my business
8. Thou shall not steal as in all the lands of the indians and have of Mexico, just to start!
9. Do not bear false witness....as in starting wars based on liers and saying false things about Iran and Chavez..
10. Thou shall not covet.....Do nothing but...
What kind of respect is this for one's religion?
This article is most disturbing, but an important one. What is particularly tragic to me about this article is that it is discussing Christians wanting to basically give Iran a headache whether through war or other means. Are not Christians supposed to love Iranians as a people and to FORGIVE its leader for his viewpoints (actually, Doctor Ahmadinejad never said that he would wipe Israel off the map anyhow)?
ALL the USA politicians who attended this CUFI meeting should not be elected. I hope the majority of Americans do not vote for these people - whether Democrat or Republican. Any CHRISTIAN applause when a fellow Christian says hateful things to a culture is terrible and, as followers of Christianity, should not be condoned.
A couple of points I remember about this article that I personally believe to be offensive and I will take them in turn:
1) The statement, "Iran reminds me of Adolf Hitler." made by a Democrat USA Represntative surnamed Engel.
Actually in one respect this statement is true, but not the way that Engel had in mind. The inspiration behind the term Aryan to Hitler came about through Iran. The name "Iran" means "the land of the Aryans." The ORIGINAL Aryans came from present day Iran, Southwest Afghanistan, and Western India if memory serves me correctly. Therefore, I seriously doubt that the true Aryans were blonde-haired and blue-eyed people. No, Engel believes that the Government of Iran is like Hitler in regards to the belief that Iran wants to bring back the Persian Empire in the near future and take over the world. Engel also believes that Doctor Ahmadinejad is a liar when in reality Engle himself is a liar. Pathetic...
2) CUFI believing that Muslims and Persians are a threat to Jewish and Christian faiths.
If CUFI members did their homework, they would discover that the Persians contributed about as much as the Hebrews have on the development of Christianity. One example of difference between Orthodox Christian and Jewish doctrines is their ideas regarding Metaphysics concerning an afterlife. It is this example that the Persians influenced Christianity more than the Hebrews did. Whereas Orthodox Jewish people do not believe in an afterlife, the Othodox Christians do (actually the belief in an afterlife is a fairly common sentiment among most Christians throughout the world). It may surprise most Christians to learn that this idea was based on ancient Persian theology. Zoroastrianism (the religious system of the ancient Persians) contributed to the Christian idea of living only one life and going to Heaven or Hell for eternity depending on the deeds of the individual (Yet evidently, and perhaps out of convenience, the Christians, Muslims, and indeed all other faiths worldwide throughout History, overlooked one aspect of Zoroastrian doctrine of worshipping any other God but the Zoroastrian God). Interesting topic to do research on, especially due to a possible threat against the Iranians who have not waged war against any nation for centuries - but risk attacks by paranoid Jews and Christians.
Actually, there is a third point I would like to mention about this CUFI group. As Christians, why would this group be so anti-Palestinian when about one-quarter of Palestinians are Christians - not to mention human beings? Why would there be some American Christians who are fine with killing Iraqis when roughly 10% of them are Christian? Are not Palestinians, Iraqis, Iranians people too? I do not understand...is there an assumption that only Europeans and Americans are Christians and that people who live throughout Southwest Asia are not?
I will close with saying that this Engel person is a REAL threat to USA national security when he makes such an arrogant quote like, "I don't think the U.S. needs to be even-handed in the Middle East - it needs to stand with and behind our only ally, Israel." No wonder why many citizens in Southwest Asia find Americans clueless and worthy of hatred.
Religion = collective insanity, especially when co-opted by those for their own agenda(s). Doesn't matter who, where etc., the means and methods are the same.
Hagee only supports McCain because he has confused him with the food company, the fat fucking pig
"The House's Iran resolution, sponsored by Representative Gary Ackerman (D-NY)"
"The Senate's Iran resolution, sponsored by Senator Evan Bayh (D-IN)"
See if you can find what's in common.
these freaks think they are going to ascend to heaven from israel
hale bop reprise
maybe they should just drink poison instead, just to be sure - its not like anyone is going to miss them
lillilu - and then there's the Red-hat Buddhist monks versus the Yellow-hat Buddhist monks battling it out hundreds of years ago. And if Buddhists were completely non-violent, why did they need to learn martial arts?
Most of these religions look lovely on paper, don't they - and then you see the political context they fit into and it's a whole nuther story.
Anyway, Buddhism does have value and is full of some incredibly wise stuff- some think Jesus visited the East and was exposed to Buddhism himself. No proof of that, of course. Most likely he spent a couple of decades in the Jewish Quarter in Alexandria.
NativeSon - "Turn the other cheek" is an offense by one person on another one and is influenced by which had is used to strike the blow. It has some connection with social rank and the insults associated with that disparity. There's more to the story than we learned in Sunday school.
And the religions we associate with specific cultures were the religions ofthe ruling class. The common people had their own religions, often based on ancestor worship. They didn't go to temples or churches, they weren't allowed in beyond the outer courtyards because they weren't purified - only the highest ruling class and priests had access to the inner sanctum - the common people worshipped in their homes.
That's what gave early Christianity its universal appeal - it was, for its day, pretty democratic. And look at it now! How very "democratic" - seems anybody with a loud mouth and a fat thumb is qualified to interpret it. Also, you ought to compare the Protestant/Lutheran Bible with the King James Version some time - you'll see a lot of stuff has been left out altogether. One wonders why.
oop - sorry - ancient Persians and Ahura Mazda. zoom zoom. Naah, well, people prolly didn't notice, as people prolly didn't read it anyway - too long, too many big words. Not enough hemp.
I wonder,too, whether splitting the self, people, nature, the cosmos into "good" and "evil" contributes to or supports genocidal actions... us vs. them.
And then there's Jericho - seems the Guy-in-the-Sky approves of genocide - but just the "good" kind.
NativeSon August 18th, 2008 1:54 pm
You know I don't agree with your idealistic view of our native Americans, but we completely agree about the Hagee's and Wright's of the world that pervert things for their own purposes.
lillulu August 18th, 2008 2:36 pm
My deepest apologies. I meant to put a slash there, that "Christian slande" remark wasn't meant for you at all.It was for agnostics and atheists.
I agree with you and dcbeltway about the Buddhist by the way. I have met and talked to. Some of the bravest guys I saw in S.E. Asia. I had a long talk with a rural monk in the mountains one time and I still make some decisions based on his thoughts. Wonderful guy. A gentle religion. And very non judgemental.
"Didn't Jesus preach about turning the other cheek and loving one's enemy? I don't see much of that in America's dominant religion. Ooops, sorry, there I go again. Shame on me"
He did and I try very hard, but its difficult for me to love someone thats abusing other people.
I also didn't mean we don't need a cleaning up in our churches by any means. No lashes for you....speak up!
This is the heartbeat of the "Christians" in america. They believe that if Jesus came back he would drive an SUV, drink starbucks, watch comcast, vote republican, and he would hate pot smokers as much as terrorists.
They refuse to entertain the idea that if Jesus came back he would be put on a no-fly list, he would be sued by prominent christian organizations, he would be investigated by the CIA, FBI, and the IRS. They believe Jesus would NOT end up in jail or renditioned. They do NOT believe Jesus would be executed again, even though our government in cotrolled by the same types who executed him before.
Yes, I would call these types "evil".
Thomas More, I'm not a Buddhist, by the way; I'm just studying it right now. From what I've read and seen, they are quite tolerant of other religions and have never bad-mouthed Christianity or other religions. They never try to ram their religion down someone's throat or try to proselytize or convert anyone.
Didn't Jesus preach about turning the other cheek and loving one's enemy? I don't see much of that in America's dominant religion. Ooops, sorry, there I go again. Shame on me
:(
(50 lashes with a wet noodle)
lillulu every religion has its violent adherents including Buddhism...when you look at the Sinhalese government's violent repression in Sri Lanka for example. Native Sinhalese are mostly Buddhist. The largely Hindu Tamil Tigers are also violent. Look at the violence that has also taken place in Nepal. So let's just say each relgion has its violent followers and each religion also has its peaceful adherents.
I will say that I like Buddhism's teachings a great deal and have been to Tibet. Vast majority of Buddhist people I have met are wonderful, warm-hearted, and peaceful.
As for CUFI they scare me.
It's time the Zionist extremists and their absurd Christian enablers/extremists see that the pathology, the evil, lies within themselves. They are narcissistically projecting their own fears, their own sickness on others. Besides, there is some kind of payoff for this group-pathology. Ahmadinejad is anything but an extremist. His error, his only error, was to try to enter a rational dialogue with those who intended merely to vilify him, and who are themselves irrational, malevolent narcissists out for blood, ready to sink the whole planet for their aims.
Galen - yes, monotheism creates some tensions- whether they are inherent to the monotheistic concept or merely expressions of political phenomena such as the association of a specific deity or rite with a ruling power structure to impose it, can be discussed. Akhenaten created a terrible, oppressive city state in Amarna, but Moses did not (for 40 years, he put up with a lot of kvetching). And later, even the ruling priestly castes of Judaism didn't persecute non-believers. The Romans didn't either - not for the religion, but for the threat to their hegemony - political, not religious. In fact, in contrast with monolithic Constantinian militant Christianity, Judaism admitted mystics and prophets - the Essenes, Qumran, Kabbalah, etc. The OT is full of the accounts of mystics. The only mystical text allowed into the NT is Revelations. Otherwise, the church authorities in Alexandria, Constantinople, Nicea, Rome, etc. banished mysticism - the Gnostics, Gnostic Gospels, Nag Hammadi. Fitting with a monolithic central military-influenced hierarchy, the religion was rejiggered to justify and support that patriarchal military structure. The problem has developed since the imposition of military culture, which always tends to be rather monocular, from the ancient Assyrians on - the religion thing just becomes another weapon of control...as in Home Depot.
The ancient polytheistic Pagans did have wars, but usually over resources and territory and with invading tribes. Once you have a single god who is also a vengeful, punishing war-god, then you have a problem: The Assyrians (thunder god), the Midianites (volcano god), the Persians (Zarathustra), the Romans (Mithras, Mars). Then the Hindu books are full of wars. Modern Pagans are too few, too introverted, too non-militant, and too fragmented to be able to pursue ambitions of conquest/hegemony. You also have to move the god into the sky, away from the earth, so that he transcends earth-bound reality/compassion and elevates blood-letting to a spiritual act. Your comparison doesn't work as you put it, for it misses a lot of important details. But your instinct is essentially correct.
biwee - Congratulations! It's a fascinating pilgrimage, isn't it? Read anything and everything by Matthew Fox - you'll find the real Jessian message again, and read "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur. Also, "The Book of Q-The Lost Gospel", and "The Book of J". I'm sure by now Joseph Campbell, Pagels and Armstrong are on your list. Good Luck on you Quest!
CUFI/PNAC/AIPAC are organizations based on hate and lies, vile, repulsive, repugnant lies. How far we've come from the happy dream of smiling attractive young settlers dancing the hora and sharing meals. Oh...oh, that was a lie, too. Leon Uris be damned.
There is no need for me to go into any length of explanation of what the "belief" in Christianity has done to my people, as well as every other tribe or other people the Christians have encountered since Constantine.
There still lingers in the atmosphere the asinine concept that the Christians abide by and willingly destroy other cultures over ---almost everywhere one may travel.
The Christians when reviewing their own history are very quick to dispel the atrocities that have been committed in the name of their "culture hero" against millions of people all through that history.
The concept that if "God" is on your side, then you can do no wrong, and will eventually reign over those who do not believe--or will not convert----or will not surrender their lives to the authority of the "Chosen Believers" who will defend the Chosen Ones'---the Children of Israel----the heirs to God's Glory----and the nonsense just goes on and on.
The illegal state of Israel would not exist without the USA and the Christian dominated nations that moved, within the power of the United Nations after WWII----nor would it exist without the billions of aid the USA sends to it annually.
This leads me to the point of this posting.
Why would "God" need so much help, or approval, or any other assistance from so many mortal human beings---to accomplish "HIS" PURPOSES ?
Why would so many Christians be willing to send billions of their money, collectively, to what amounts to a few multi-millionaire "Bible Thumping Evangelists"?
Why would these people who are convinced that they are "doing the right thing" be so willing to go to such insane lengths---except for the one length that I do not see them doing.
This is my proposal, and I will donate one us dollar ($1.00) for the purpose*.
That Pastor Hagee*---as well as all of the other Pastors/Preachers/Evangelists/Bible Thumpers/Saints?/or even the "sinners" "Gird up their Loins" (or their Lions)----Put on the Armor of the Lord, Pack up and--- en mass, with their OWN Military, attack ANY NATION that they think are a Danger to their, God---that needs so much help.
*Pastor Hagee---and most every one of the other "leaders" are Millionaires, who travel mostly in Private Jets, and with entourages that movie stars cannot afford. They live lavish lives, and are able to keep their money, in many cases Tax Free or at least Low.
If they truly believe that which they preach, I would think that they would 'SHOW THAT FAITH WITH THEIR ACTIONS' "mount up"----take the Army,Navy,Air Force (s) they have used THEIR OWN MONEY FOR--TO BUILD--as well of those other believers that make them rich----and ALL of them take the BATTLE TO THE ENEMY----
THEMSELVES----
Let the rest of us "pick up the news" of their progress on CNN--or the network members who seem to give them so much coverage now.
Now I might become a BELIEVER after that show.
This is an excellent article and it exposes the fanaticism and hatred that is inherent in the Zionist movement.
Two points are worthy of mention. With its support for the Israeli military occupation of the Palestinian territories, it is clear that Christian Zionism is not Christianity but a perversion of Christianity, which opposes oppression in all its forms.
The second is that the US's own NIE ( National Intelligence Estimate ) recognizes the Iranians stopped building a bomb as early as 2003. An inconvenient truth, if there ever was one.
"What do you do with a maniac like Ahmadinejad? I'm not sure diplomacy works,"--Gary Bauer.
The answer to Bauer's question seems to be fairly easy and straightforward. MY question is: what do you do with maniacs like Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rice, Hagee, Bauer, Robertson and all past PNAC members?
"What do you do with a maniac like Ahmadinejad?"
Well, first off you can ignore him (as does the Supreme Leader and controller of all real power in Iran, Ali Khamenei) as Ahmadinejad has no power over the military and no red button to push. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran
Just another "little fact" ignored by both the media, Congress, White House and pro-war types.
*your* cause.
Pardon the typos.
"It is events and people like the CUFI membership that re-enforce my view that Christianity is nothing more than a very successful death cult, with a clearly defined and demonstrated fetish for pain and suffering greater that any public display of BDSM kink…"
The article was very specific in mentioning a particular Evangelical group. It did not indict all Christians.
Use of the broad brush is not appreciated, my friend. It doesn't serve you cause to do so.
The title of the article should be "Christians united for Israel and against America" Why is the patriotism of this bunch is never called into question. Unilateral support for the Zionists is against the national interests of the USA.
lillulu,
the answer to all of your questions is "no". Pro-lifers only care about the un-born. once born, you are on your own, and then their other god, the "market" will decide.
lillulu August 18th, 2008 12:48 pm
Oops! Forgot to add that you and I agree completely about anyone that wants to make the decision on abortion for someone else. Completely. Let them start lining up or shut up.
Pax
lillulu August 18th, 2008 12:48 pm
"Thou Shalt Not Kill." The correct quotation is "thou shalt not commit murder"
As a Christian I don't mind if you want to slander Christians or espouse anti-Christia propaganda. You are as welcome to your belief of non-belief or a different belief as I am to mine.
Thats another advantage America gives you that you won't find in some other countries.
Still liberally waving that flag.
I grew up as a Christian. I am now studying a nonviolent philosophy/religion -- Buddhism. It appears Christians conveniently pick and choose the Ten Commandments they wish to follow, and ignore those they don't want to follow e.g. "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Same for the Jewish religion.
I saw an African-American evangelical preacher on C-Span last week. He was talking about how abortion in the U.S. is "genocide" against African-Americans and about the African-American birth numbers being low.
There are many blacks who are going hungry in Africa. I'm wondering why the evangelical preacher didn't encourage anyone to adopt a black child if he is so concerned about "genocide" against African-Americans in the form of abortion.
My questions are: Has anyone in this country heard of birth control? And exactly who is forcing African-American women to get abortions? Are evangelical Christians who are against abortion (1) on a waiting list, ready to adopt unwanted, unplanned babies or (2) putting money into a college education fund for the unplanned child and (3) otherwise helping the mother who probably doesn't want to bring a child into a life of poverty and extreme hardship. If not, they need to start putting their money where their mouths are; otherwise, they should not try to influence others' votes by the abortion issue.
There are other more important issues that abortion, by the way.
Skippy - Look at the history of monotheism. From Ahkenaton in Ancient Egypt to the most most recent televangelist, they all use violence and the threat of violence to control their 'believers', either in the form of 'believe as we tell you to or get an axe in the head', or the fractionally more subtle 'do you want to burn in hell?'.
And don't let me get started on the bloody history of crusades, invasions , jihads and what not committed by monotheists...
And ask yourself this: When is that last time you heard of a modern neo-pagan go on a bloody killing spree? Or start a genocidal war of occupation?
If you look at the list of CUFI supporters, and the members of PNAC, you will see a lot of crossover...
By turning the enrichment process into a consortium, global companys like General Electric would become hands on partners. I believe Iran has accepted this proposal. israel and the usa are opposed. Common sense solution rejected !!!
Galen,
You forgot to include their support of devine torture. For all those unfortunate enough not to buy - and buy they must - into their particular version of god/religion it's an eternity of torture by demons in the fires of hell. You're quite right to compare the traditional version of god (either muslim or christian, tradional Jews think one lives on through ones children; no afterlife at all) to a BDSM fetishmaster...
The article is a standard, we will win, they will lose, because our god has a bigger book. These people aren't worshiping any god, they worship their bible. Which they've made into an idol. Any time you hear someone say the bible is the infalible word of god, you're talking to an idolator.
As a Christian, I have spent some time, energy and money in my retirement to learn more about Jesus of Nazareth, the early Christian church, and the development of the Bible. This has been difficult, as the formal record of all from a historical perspective is thin. I conclude that there are some who call themselves Christian who have no real idea of who Jesus was, and what he said and did. They have no idea of the Archbishop of Alexandria who, in about 367 AD, named the 27 books of the New Testament, thereby excluding many early Christian writings. I am in no position to judge, but the AntiChrist may be here in an unexpected form.
And, the notion of "Christian Zionism" is pure garbage.
sigh
It is events and people like the CUFI membership that re-enforce my view that Christianity is nothing more than a very successful death cult, with a clearly defined and demonstrated fetish for pain and suffering greater that any public display of BDSM kink...
How many 'Christians' have you heard support killing LEGAL abortion providers? Or wholeheartedly support the death penalty, to the point of bragging that they would cheerfully flip the switch/pull the lever?
How many of these 'Christians' look forward deliriously to 'The Rapture (tm)', so much so they will do nothing to curtail their corporate consumption 'lifestyles'? How many of them fight tooth and nail to deny the very clear evidence of climate change?
If these death fetishists are so excited at the prospect of 'The Second Coming (tm)', why don't they just off themselves en mass, and leave the world a better place for the rest of us?
And that despicable WARPIG Bill Kristol should be deported. I mean, he has dual Israeli-US citizenship, right? So let's lobby for him to be deported to Israel.
"Out, out, damned spot!"
I think it should be illegal for ANY interest group to lobby our govt for murder, destabilization and war.
Peace through strength. More militaristic sloganeering.