It makes my skin crawl when two candidates are asked to attest to their adherence to Jesus Christ. Which version of Jesus? Any religion or political group can interpret the literature with wide variations in emphasis and conclusions. Religion is like an ink blot test that reveals the personality of the person: authoritarian, obedient, smug, generous, kind, joyful, punitive, compassionate, outraged or whatever.

This question automatically rules out Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, animists, atheists and a lot of people who don't give a hoot about dogma. The only acceptable answer in a secular state is that Jesus was a great guy and I wish we could follow his teachings about peace and the poor.

No more religious tests. Or if so, make them more interesting, as they were during the Spanish Inquisition.

It disgusts me that a 'religious forum' was ever held in a presidential campaign. If is so offensive to me that religion even plays a part in the national debate of secular issues.

Talk about some guy setting himself up to be a religious/political power broker in the future. Now they will kiss his butt to get his endorsement in the future... and someone who should hold no more sway than you or I will suddenly become important.. We are a nation of idiots. The last 2 elections proved that.

It's bad enough that the religious right has had the Republican party by the balls for the last 25 years.... but to see a Democratic nominee participating in it is truly alarming. Obama should never have agreed to participate. I don't mind that he met with religious leaders privately recently, but to become part of a public display of religiosity is unfortunate.

And I agree with athiest that it is ridiculous that Obama plans to expand the Bush so-called faith based initiative.

Not the kind of change I'd hoped for.

Obama plans to EXPAND Bush's fantasy-based initiative scam ! This is ridiculous, more taxpayer money to scammy religious groups, more brainwashed sheeple. Yah, some change there. Anyone can be a pastor and start his/her own church. I should start one. Hey people, I have converted ! I now believe in Jeezus ! Gimme some money so I can help the poor.

. . . as for Warren's church? Just sad.

I was very disappointed by what I saw on Saturday night in Warren's church. I saw that the deck was stacked, and that here was Obama earnestly trying to reach the religious folk that follows this pastor. I have read Warren's best selling book, and I was inspired by what I read, but seeing is believing and Warren and his church came across as people who give lip service to the sermon on the mount, but who use it, rather than follow it. So sad.
It was my suspicion, having seen John McCain sputter and misspeak dozens of times, that his delivery was rather canned. Then the revelatiion, that the pastor had known when he began his show, that McCain wasn't yet present and in the "cone of silence." It made more sense then, why McCain came off as better "prepared." For shame John McCain. For shame, most of all to Pastor Warren.

Didn't watch it. Wouldn't watch it. I, frankly, find it an insult to my religious (or non-religious) beliefs to have the candidates licking the boots of a Christian pastor. Now, if they were to schedule similar forums for the candidates to grovel before Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, Confucian, Pagan, and Atheist sectarian leaders, I might be interested in comparing the spectacle at Saddleback in a context.

I tried to watch some of it, but couldn't take very much.

I did appreciate that Obama seemed to see the Beatitudes as the overarching theme of Jesus' teaching, something most Republicans miss entirely. It would mean helping the poor, sick, talking to enemies, etc.

But what seems to be ignored here is that Obama — and to a lesser degree McCain — really had no choice but to show up and do this thing.

Had Obama declined, he would have convinced even more ignorant Americans that he is truly a closet Muslim. Or that his theology is scary and black and revolutionary.

I know that would thrill many here, but it would not be a good idea in his view.

I'm almost afraid to admit it, but I am a follower of Jesus. You can call me a "Christian" if you want, but there is so much baggage that comes with that monicker, that I prefer to just be a follower of Jesus. I am a pacifist. I wish there was not abortion, but understand that it should not even be discusses until the church (christendom) realizes that the sanctity of life continues through death. Also, we should value the life of an Iraqi just as much as an American fetus. Jesus said a whole lot about peace, love, greed, materialism, and sacrifice, yet, many people who claim to follow him ignore the radical lifestyle (that happens to contradict the "American dream") that he mapped out. There are some "sayings" of Jesus that seem extreme, and honestly, I wish he had not said them, but overall, Jesus seems to be a defender of the poor, weak, downtrodden, and outcast. This is why I am comfortable following him.
Now, for Rick Warren. I am not sure that I would go as far to say that he is a step in the right direction, but, keep in mind, the face of evangelicalism has been Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and the late Jerry Falwell. I prefer Rick, and his cheesy, money-makin' books to that trinity of hatred and intolerance.
I am not apologizing for Rick Warren, but I think there is a movement in many churches (although not enough) toward living a life patterned after Christ that is much more loving and tolerant than in the past. This is me looking at the glass 1/16th full, but what little liquid there is in the glass is hopefully of the refreshing variety, and not the poison that has been spewed by the church in the past.
If they(Obama and McCain) really do follow Jesus as they claim, I wish their actions would match the man that they claim to profess their faith in. MLK was a perfect example of a man with faith and flaw that did not allow religion to dictate his agenda, but love (Christ-like I like to assume) to lead him. It got him killed, I guess Obama and McCain lack the courage to follow Jesus in that manner.
Well, we can only hope that there is change, no matter how small, in the right direction. Too many people are dying and suffering, and this would not be ideal for Jesus, people who truly follow him, and my human brothers, the muslims, who in their own right, desire peace and hope in this world.

I don't watch TV, and I follow my own religion, so I am only now learning about the existence of Rick Warren...so, another Superchurch, with another scuzzy-looking 'leader', preaching ideas so far from the apparent intent of the character known as Jesus in the translated version of the book known as the Bible, has blossomed? How disappointing, and how predictable...how many times do you have to be fooled? How many of your heroes have fallen lately, my dear? The fact that these two goofballs running for president, a goofball process waiting to be computer-driven toward pre-determined results, is equally disappointing, though no less surprising...these things are such non-issues...forget all three of these idiots and take control of your own mind and body...figure out your purpose, if you have one beyond watching TV, and try not to invest in our industrialized culture...good luck...

As a border collie owner, I love your analogy and sadly agree with the thrust of this piece. One can go on about who's being herded - who are the sheep? I didn't watch this media circus, but have read a lot about it. I'm an atheist who is tolerant of real "religion" as much as I don't accept the central (deist) thesis. Here's a question: when did the word "faith" take over from "religion" and are they the same thing?

I found out about this forum because it was on the front page of the L.A. Times the other day. It seemed disgusting to me that Senator Obama would even attend such an event. But then, he lost my support long ago. What really infuriated me though was the related story on the inside page about various protests going on outside the church. As usual, the Times, while attempting to sound balanced, painted these people as lunatics. As I read, I couldn't help but to think that all the real lunatics were on the inside, with the entire political charade and mindless applauding of Senator McCain's talking points.

Eric Barth August 18th, 2008 9:20 am
Don't worry that you are paying the freight for these corporate criminals and watching your kids go off to die or be maimed in senseless, illegal and endless wars because the millionaires and billionaires who profit are just miserable anyway!!

Besides, just be a good little "person of faith" and you shall be rewarded in some non-existent "heaven". Ignore those filthy rich, just move along, nothing to see here ...

When I was back there in seminary school
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the LORD with prayer
PETITION the LORD with PRAYER
You can NOT... PETITION... the LORD... with PRAYER!

-- from "The Soft Parade", lyrics by Jim Morrison, music by The Doors

Appearing at this megachurch is like appearing on "Fox News." Rick Warren and "Fox News" are not neutral when it comes to keeping the Right Wing in power. The comment made by McCain about the definition of what constitutes "rich" says it all. McCain: "Some of the richest people I know are the most unhappy." Where have we heard that one before. Its the last ditch defense of the indefensible rip off of the American taxpayers by the disciples of Milton Friedman and McCain's buddy Phil Gramm. Don't worry that you are paying the freight for these corporate criminals and watching your kids go off to die or be maimed in senseless, illegal and endless wars because the millionaires and billionaires who profit are just miserable anyway!!

genaman, I agree, but who's going to vote for anybody who says he is a Buddhist?

The fact that some prayer group (Hillary is a member of one such group) claimed credit for talking God into something makes me think that they knew that many people would take them seriously.

Let's not forget that these people vote. No wonder candidates for office say stupid tings. They think that is what people want to hear.

We Americans would be better ooff IIf McCain And Obama were Buddists.
Now lets all stand up and sing Bod Dylan's GOD IS ON OUR SIDE.

Just as Rick Warren seems to be the new great christian leader in this country, there must also be a great jewish leader somewhere, no? We need to find this leader and have him or her conduct a corresponding forum wherein McCain and Obama deny the existence of jesus christ in order to obtain "the jewish vote". After all, something like 3% of the population of the united states is jewish, and thats a large voting bloc. (All incidents of lower case proper nouns intentional).

The conservatives give government money to religious groups which supposedly offer community services to the poor, and then gut government programs that do the same.

After Obama got the nomination he said that his administration would give even more financial support to "Faith Based" organizations than the Bush Administration did because, said Obama; "We can't do it alone".

Obama wants to give government funds to religious groups because the government can't "do it" alone. Well, not with all that money being spent on the war! And all those tax breakes going to the corporations and the rich!

I say cut out the middle man - both the Church and the State, and keep these lame questions about faith out of the debates. I'm sick to death of fundamentalists! Give the people their lives back and let them take care of their own families and communities. Stop allowing some religions to feed at government trough while other religious beliefs get you detained!

Most religions seek to dominate other religions. Some seek to understand other religions, and sometimes in history, including our so-called Dark Ages, Great Debates have occurred even over centuries among Protagonists, often in writing. For example, over a couple of centuries or so, Spain became the center of ecclesiastical consternations as Christians and Islamists exchanged translations of what each thought they knew or believed (not a few Jews were also involved there...). The Library at Alexandria had been torched centuries earlier. What was a guy to do? And who still held the Ptolemaic Scrolls? And where did the idea of Zero REALLY come from?

Since 9/11, much of The West has developed an ignorant fear of Islam, and many of our politicians and pundits have exploited this fear. Some evangelicals (and some Jews) have adopted the policy, "if they want to get extremist we can get extremist" and pretty soon everyone is looking to some Old Written Word as justification for their extremism. One can become slave to one's own rationalizations.

But for what? The last thing we need in the United States is for evangelicals to, for example, define the American narrative of the First Amendment: Though Shall Allow, even Enable, FREE SPEECH.

There are at least a billion people in the world who say they live by the word of The Prophet. What is the Nature of this Prophet? Would not Americans be the wiser to ask how ignorant we really are about the people we say Hate Us for our "freedoms"? What "freedoms"? The Freedom to SHOP? The Freedom to be foreclosed because you were too hurried to read the fine print on your Adjustible Rate Mortgage? The Freedom to drive your 14-mph SUV with one occupant so you can show you have discretionary income and can mow down a guy driving a Volkswagen?

We really need a New Dialogue here. It is really bad politics for the two major Presidential candidates to supplicate before the evangelicals to display their Christian Credentials.

OTOH, given the SLANDER by the right-wing that Obama is a Muslim, perhaps he had to submit to the...What? Evangelical and AIPAC domination of the Narrative?

To take this to a logical conclusion, what would be "wrong" with an Islamist as President of the Untied (sic) States?

The real state of war is with ourselves, internally. Most of us hate ourselves, and do not know why. Imagine a discussion among the "I" that you think you are. Then join with all the other humans. We are overwhelmed by our numbers in this world and we need to reduce ourselves. And we need to deny Leadership to the sick profligracies of anything called Bush. Or Cheney. Et al.

-30-

That forum of Rick Warren`s was a total farce and Obama should not have gotten involved with such a power-hungry promoter. Obama followed the rules, and tried to answer the questions properly after giving them a little thought, which some are saying made him look hesitant and unsure.

McCain, on the other hand, answered only what he pleased, and Warren let him turn it all into a purely rehearsed political speech, which supposedly showed his great knowledge and decision making ability. It looked like a power-play for Warren, and a set-up for McWar to push his war agenda and satisfy the evangelicals with emotional stories designed for maximum effect on his religious base.

McCain, of course, threw out his customary tax cutting for everyone without having to answer how a ten trillion debt can be managed without any way to pay it down, but I imagine he figures, like Bush, that God will take care of our honorable warmongering expenses.

I wouldn't follow either of these men into battle so why would I trust them for President. No thanks.

I watched the carefully stage-managed 'forum' for a few minutes. It was all I could handle. Why put on a show for the religiously deranged in order to get their vote?

And if Obama and McCain want to 'bear witness' and do 'god's work' then, for Christ's sake, let them join the clergy.

This crass television spectacle shows up two great flaws in American politics: mixing religion and politics and giving too much power to one man.

"When will they ever learn...when will they ever learn?"

www.dangerouscreation.com

"Who is the least of your brethren? What makes them "the least?" Money, race, gender, sexuality?"

Well, Bill, all of the above. Maybe I'm wrong, but this specific gripe seemed to be a shot at Obama for using the Bible to point out the hypocrisy of Christians who discriminate against people for those reasons. I mean, you sort of have a point in the article -- I hate the entwining of religion and politics as much as almost anyone -- but this one bit makes me question the whole thing.

1. Worship no god but me.

2. Don't make pornographic images.

3. canceled.

4. Observe the Sabbath and keep it holy except during election season.

5. Honor your father and your mother.

6. Only the state can murder.

7. Do not marry two wives at the same time.

8. Do not abort.

9. Forget this puppy! How about no homosexuals!

10. Do not desire another man's house, do not desire his slaves, his cattle, his donkeys, or anything else that he owns.

There is no reason whatsoever for us to worry about the place of religion in Obama's presidency, so why make a fuss over necessary political theater to get elected in America?

Heck, he clearly won this silly religiosity match anyway.

I read some time ago, in Common Dreams no less,that Dubya's own Religion was going to give him the boot for his attacks on the poor and all sorts of people in general. They backed off, OR, their positive vote never got publicized.
What would happen if those who know all the Biblical quotes, and show off by quoting them chapter and verse, were to be asked HOW they put said concepts into ACTION. I think the SILENCE would be defening, and the redness of their faces would damage televisions everywhere. Does the Golden Rule mean ANYTHING, or do many of those who theoretically "preach it" actually work for the DEVIL? More likely they work for the Republican Party, and of course CONSERVATIVE parties elsewhere, same difference without the horns and tails...or do they have AMAZING tailors and hairstylists???????????

Does anybody realize Rick Warren's number one goal is to increase attendance at his church?

I am not sure what the point of this article is.

It reads like a lot of angry ranting, and not coherent thought. Can anyone help me out here?

The author's definition of marrige is a little vague as well. The root of marrige is in religion. Up until recently it has been basically a religious ceremony.

In a secular society, as Obama has said, it makes sense to turn it into a purely LEGAL agreement, betweeen two parties.

Remove the moral part. Whatever religion the couple belongs to (atheism etc... included) can add the moral component.

What is so complicated about that.

For all you bible thumpers out there, Jesus himself spoke of keeping politics and faith seperate:

"Well, then," he said, "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God." Matthew 22:21 (NLT).

RuthK

...great idea...a forum on the constitution...I bet you and a number of other citizens could get it together...

The staggering ignorance of two presidential candidates appearing on an idiot forum such as this, in the 21st century, in a Western industrialized country, is beyond comprehension. Vote for one of these voodoo dancers? No.

A prayer group in Washington DC is claiming the credit for the recent sharp drop in the US price of petrol.

Now that America has deified Cheney's Oily Cabal will congress rename a month or a day after our Neogods?

"Nato-led soldiers operating in southern Afghanistan "accidentally" have killed four civilians and wounded three others in a rocket attack intended for armed groups.

Nato's International Security Assistance Force said on Sunday that the casualties from the incident on Saturday in the volatile province of Helmand included women and children."

Is this why Neocon President Bush and Reich Chancellor Merkel want Georgia in NATO? To provide more NATO trained child killers for their War on the World?

saffiyah....mcain is even WEAKER than obama....all he did was repeat the SAME OLD right wing talking points,to the SAME OLD right wing dominated audience.....which they have heard upteen times already

I don't know if Bill actually saw this 2 hour charade. What I saw was Obama being his usual thoughtful and relatively candid self and McCain (R - insane) being his belligerant self but doing it very cleverly. The tv pundits all gave McInsane thumbs up and pronounced him "winner".
What Obama did ,though ,was to assure thousands of fence sitters that he is a christian. It is uncanny how many (especially older people - and even more especially women) think that Obama is or WAS a muslim and was raised by muslim parents. This lie has sunk deep into the nation's psyche and Obama needs to do all he can to root it out.
I disagree with Bill, Obama IS about change and the fact that he says it a lot, in this case, is not indicative of the opposite, though I understand why Bill would think so, because for 8 years or more every politician (especially repubs, but dems as well) have played that game - i.e. say one thing do another. Read "Dreams of My Father", if you haven't already, and you will see the depth of thinking and philosophy Obama holds. And remember he was only 26 when he wrote it.

LORENZO: Good points.

As soon as religion, particularly a religion suitable to authoritarians, get melded into state policy, you're looking at all the unwholesome elements of the next inquisition. Ultimately, it may already be underway in the demonizing of Arabs and the lies about Islamofascism as the great enemy, etc.

The convenience society with its worship of mammon fed everyday by the mainstream media blithely looks away from the ruinous carnage done in its nation's name. Any notion of 'god' under these circumstances, evil rendered banal, is a delusion. Of course it brings the astrologer to ask the pertinent question, "which god are you refering to?" And "to know them by their fruits," the legacy of war and its calamitous outcomes are fit tribute to but one god... Mars.

The least of us in any society are those who have the least of whatever the society assigns value.

Some things are fairly constant regardless of time and place: health, intelligence, physical strength and stamina, good looks, wealth.

Depending on the society the definition of these qualities varies. And the order in which these things are important varies even more.

To its shame, this society values a quality that is difficult to define, but is indispensable to making money: it includes such qualities as deceitfulness, charisma, insatiable greed, lip service to virtue, a view of others as being objects, never subjects, ruthlessness, sneakiness, scheming, intelligence.

Such people rise quickly through the ranks of any bureaucracy, whether corporate, ecclesiastical, military, or governmental. Promotions come easily and quickly for them. Those who have it are called winners or players. Those without it are losers, and those who have the least of it are "the least of these" in this society.

Barack is the Bio-fuel candidate beholden to the frankstein food people... long love the small farmer of the planet!

I couldn't watch the religious forum for fear of puking on my coffee table, but I did see McCain make the "I'm a pro-life" statement. He must have forgotten about all those times he dropped napalm on defenseless Vietnamese villagers.

I didn't watch it. I'm angry that forums on religion have so dominated a presidential campaign. Are we electing a pope or a president?

We need a forum - not on the 10 commandments - but on the 1st 10 amendments to the Constitution. The new president will have to swear to protect and defend the constitution. I want to know if they even know what they are. If they do not know the Bill of Rights then forget about their religious views. They should not be president.

Not that the US actually deserves someone as president whose intellectualism and approach to spirituality matches Havel's; however, the world needs someone as US president who is willing to listen closely to someone of Havel's caliber.

http://www.worldtrans.org/whole/havelspeech.html

Of course, had Havel given this speech at Saddleback or at any megachurch, for that matter (or offered its message as answer to Pastor Rick's questions). . . .

Barack Obama is a very weak candidate which is exactly the usual and totally typical calling card of the enabling Democratic Party come election time. They are not a real opposition to anything the neocon Republicans come up with, and any liberals who follow along like sheep behind Obama are really also enabling more of the same from the Republicans in the years ahead.

Religion has absolutely NO PLACE in a campaign for the highest office in this corrupt country! How about some Q & A of relevance like, say, getting the hell out of Iraq; leaving Iran and the REST of the world alone; a fair taxation system; infrastructure repair; veterans' benefits; a dying, poisoned planet; OVERPOPULATION; single-payer health care; disarming the largest nuclear hoard in the world; ETC. ETC. ETC.

Jeezus H. Kryste! When did values turn the corner into facade?!?! Why not ask their damned opinions of Britney and Paris??? Just as relevant!

John McCain proclaimed to Rick Warren that he is proudly "pro-life" and has been for a long time, and that his presidency would be a "pro-life presidency". I am just SO GLAD to hear this, because that certainly means the United States, under McCain would STOP bombing and shooting and blowing up people all over the world. Wouldn't it?

If you read Rick Warren's book, you would find that he does "cut and paste" Bible quotes. He takes a sentence from one place in one of the many Bible versions and another one from another - and unrelated place in a different version etc. You can say just about anything using the "cut and paste" technuique. You could cut letters out of a magazine and use them to write a love note - or a death threat. Do not trust cut and paste Bible teachers.

Also, Rick Warren has difficulty discovering what Jesus really says in his book.

Rick Warren, representing a "new" evangelical with a social conscience seems to limit his conscience to some of the works of charity or direct service, not so much the systemic roots of injustice and non-love. Accommodating war and empire, with its root in the pre-eminent sin, idolatry, Warren, along with the vast majority of Congress and a citizenry in denial, are fostering things that authentic faith would never tolerate. What things? We are talking about torture, rape, mass murder, and carnage in general. We are talking about not allowing truth to be spoken and heard, something freedom of conscience demands.

McCain and Obama prostitute themselves to play the political game. It is about expediency and getting elected. It speaks more to the lack of character and integrity in the pursuit of a supposed higher goal. It is most disheartening with Obama, where, of the two of them, the greatest opportunity to some modicum of conversion – my word for change – can occur.

Yet leaders of many faith traditions do the same. An Archbishop in the Catholic Church told me "I am willing to tolerate war," saying he saw no need for the two of us to meet and discuss our positions because he believed neither of us would change the other.

All this should not be surprising. While we citizens may take the act of voting seriously and make the best choice we can, real change will only happen when we are organized and work hard to press for change. Read history honestly and we will see that this is the only way significant change for the better occurs. It is not sitting around with any expectation of elected leaders to make the change without our concerted, and faith grounded, efforts. To me, that is real quality of life, and faith.

I have a simple question for the Christians.

WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB?

How else can the tradition of tyrany and oppression be upheld? The population of the world that rakes in the money by keeping the Natives in their reservations(as an example) are threatened by real individualism and Democracy.

Mr. Davis, we are at least one generation away from a more common knowlege of humanity. And even that will not ensure a greater good.

Faith, evil, troops, surge -- the military-corporate right's entire propaganda effort rests on mindlessly repeating, mantra-like, these silly little words.

Decent article. Thought provoking. Of course, I would hope that a playwright is thought provoking, if not, they should find a new vocation. Still, Bill's particular brand of faith is showing. . .I think.

For instance, I do not know that Jesus died for their sins. I know they claim to believe that. What disturbs me is that every President in my lifetime has claimed that belief.

I would like some real change, like a atheist candidate, or at least a Jeffersonian type.

"Dogma is regarded by the majority as true, by the minority as false, and by the rulers as useful." - modified quote of Seneca the Younger 4 b.c.- 65 a.d.

Hospitaller: I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] , and by what you decide to do eveyday, will make you a good man...or not.

- From the Movie the Kingdom of Heaven.