Good points Ted. I understand where you are coming from. Thanks.

"I will take your advice and leave the personal attacks out (calling you morally bankrupt) and stick to the arguments. I don't know anything about your morals so that was inappropriate. I can say you are an advocate of a party that supports war. That you cannot deny. Do you?"

Ray,

C'mon, man, let's not let degrees blind us to the fact that we probably have more in common than not.

I do not support the Democratic Party, and I am not a Democrat. If you look at many of my posts, you will see me right along side of you railing against the Democratic Party and its leadership. They have sold us down the river.

Like many others, I am torn by what I see. It hurts to see how far a party that I once belonged to has sunk. Having said that, I also see what is right in front of me, and I see the people who are living right on the edge of this society - the people who are just one paycheck from living on the streets. A McCain administration will put many people on the streets...or worse.

I am not saying what Obama will do because neither I nor anyone else really knows. The fact is that we never know what someone will do until they are in that position. What I do strongly believe is that Obama has the intelligence and intent to take back some of the positions we have lost to the neocons. I'm not saying that I think he's the answer - no one is (and Kucinich was my first choice by far) - but I do believe that if the neocons get 4 more years, we'll see things we, even now, can't fathom. As author Salman Rushdie wrote, "One of the extraordinary things about human events is that the unthinkable becomes thinkable."

I will vote for Obama as a purely defensive measure. I know that the DNC/DLC cabal is part of the military-industrial complex. The fact is, we, you and I and everyone else who sees this, must work hard to change things. Merely shouting at people and shaking our fists electronically will do nothing. Matter of fact, it's what THEY want us to do. It spends energy and does nothing.

I respect you and anyone else for voting for whomever you want. I have voted for Nader myself. I did so in 2000 because he was running for the Green Party and the GP was on the cusp of garnering national party status. Can you imagine the political landscape had that happened? Well, the rest is history. What I don't respect is people who throw labels around and have such a narrow view as to disallow any possibility of commonality. We may not see everything eye-to-eye, but I think in many things, most here on CD would agree.

Fundamentalism is our enemy. Let's not join it too.

Ted

Ted Markow,
I wrote: ""GO Greens! GO Nader! GO 3rd parties! GO anybody but a God-damned Democrat!"

You wrote: "Yeah, like: GO Fascists! GO Nazis! GO Libertarians! GO Right-wing neocon Fundamentalists! GO anarchists!"

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I guess you have a point. Go anybody means anybody, so it could be a fascist, or a Nazi, neocon or anyone. But there is a problem with your argumnet.

The problem with your argument is that if you read any of my other posts it is VERY CLEAR I am attacking Democrats and Obama in particular, from the LEFT not the right.

That being the case I would not be an advocate for Nazis, fascist or neocons. So my argument against you was not ad hominem abusive because I did address the substance of the argument; namely that implying I would find a Nazis, fascist or neocon acceptable is dishonest based on all the other posts I wrote excoriating Democrats for supporting the war and subverting our civil rights (FISA).

I will take your advice and leave the personal attacks out (calling you morally bankrupt) and stick to the arguments. I don't know anything about your morals so that was inappropriate. I can say you are an advocate of a party that supports war. That you cannot deny. Do you?

I am confident I can win almost any argument in which a Democratic Party supporter tries to paint Obama as antiwar and pro-civil rights. I can do this based on his voting record.

Ted Markow August 19th, 2008 9:21 pm writes, "Sounds pretty ad hominem, tailcap."
-Sorry about that, it won't happen again. I get overheated sometimes. Calling you morally bankrupt and dishonet may have crossed the line. You're right.
Ray Cingado

"-This DPA displays the moral bankruptcy and dishonesty of the Democratic Party he advocates for. Notice how this DPA is insinuating that I am advocating for fascists and right-wing neocons instead of the principled Greens and the principled Ralph Nader I mentioned."

Sounds pretty ad hominem, tailcap.

Why don't you give us your real name so that we can thank you when Nader wins? And, by the way, you do know that Nader is running as an independent, don't you? You do know about political parties, don't you?

One more thing - I'm not a Democrat...but I'm sure that won't stop you from more ad hominem attacks. Tough guy.

elmysterio, you're correct that this is about a capitulation by the Democrats, again, but my point was that there is very little in the way of reserves in the moratorium areas of the Outer Continental Shelf.

In this excerpt I extracted from the US Minerals Management Service they state frankly right here that, "MMS estimates of oil and gas resources in undiscovered fields on the OCS (2006, mean estimates) total 86 billion barrels of oil and 420 trillion cubic feet of gas." http://www.mms.gov/offshore/ Of the 86 billion barrels only 17.8 billion barrels are in the moratorium areas. The other 68 billion barrels are in the OK to drill areas.

But getting back to your relevant point that this is about the Democratic Party cave-in, consider that the agreement leaves most states out like California and Florida where there is little support for off-shore drilling. Even the most aggressive state for off-shore drilling, Virginia, will be over-ruled by the Pentagon because the Navy uses the area off-shore for a variety of activiites. http://climateprogress.org/2008/08/03/since-offshore-oil-is-de-minimis-why-shouldnt-obama-and-the-dems...

The bottom line is that the Republicans are pandering to the public distress over gas prices and so-far it appears to have worked and the Democrats have caved in. I predict that very little will come of that assuming that the cost to drill out-weighs the amount of money the oil companies can make from the oil. It also assumes that those 86 billion barrels in undiscovered fields become discovered.

RSJ said to tailcap: "You'd rather see the country go down the drain completely?"

That is inevitable RSJ. No matter who you 'elect' president, the American empire is on the decline. You Americans have a choice to make: either abandon your empire and keep your 'democracy', or abandon your 'democracy' and keep your empire. You can't have both. From what I see, BOTH parties are in favor of keeping the empire, blessed Obama the golden-boy included.

Note: I put the word democracy in quotes because it is my opinion that the US is not a true democracy, but a plutocracy.

Radio_tec: I would argue that the article is more about the Pelosi and company rolling over for the republicans AGAIN, this time about off-shore drilling. Therefore, calling out the democrats for their treason to the public, once again, is fully warranted.

RSJ said: "progressives viciously attacking their own"

See, there's the big lie... by claiming democrats are progressives, you're perpetuating that lie. The Democratic party is about as progressive as Bush is compassionate. You really need to get over the idea of the Democratic party as the party of the people. They're not. They're a wholly owned subsidiary of Corporate America. They don't represent the interests of the people any more than the Republicans do. You can not claim that being progressive means voting democrat. That's ludicrous! Therefore, if you are truly a progressive, then the democrats are NOT your own.

jstevens said: "If Gore were President none of the above would be problem."

Hmmm... I doubt that my friend. Al Gore is a CFR member and another supporter of the US empire. Have you forgotten the atrocities committed by the Clinton Administration? Gore was a part of that. A Gore presidency would look a lot like Bill Clinton's. A "kinder, gentler form of brutal US imperialism".

Looks like the topic drift has become more acute since I last posted. This thread is about off-shore drilling right? Oh wait, I see the problem. Its the trolls. When you have trolls don't feed them. They get frustrated and go watch Fixed News Network.

Oh...........I see.

The Dems will bend over...that is their idea of "compromise" or "reaching across the aisle".

Is this there way of covering their butts for not doing anything to hold the Bush administration accountable...you know the: "Oh no, we cannot do that, we have to work for the next election, we cannot look like we are going after them, as a revenge for what they did to Bill Clinton."

WELL LET ME TELL YOU YOU SLIME BALLS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY:

Just wait until one of you step into the White House next, prepare yourself for the Republicans to start Impeachment hearings, walking out of congress on a weekly basis, blocking anything you want to do, and complain about the "executive privilege" that Bush has created a precedent for, when you try to use them.

I am an Independent and will vote for neither Democrat nor Republican.

NOT that it matters, seeing as OUR votes do not really count, both in the "count" as in the number of votes, and the "count" as if "it matters that you vote".

I am a proud Liberal, Independent, Socialist, Secular Humanist....a.k.a. the Party of the People, the Party the Founding Father's envisioned....at least Jefferson.

Corey Mondello
Boston, Massachusetts
www.CoreyMondello.com
8-19-08

I don't support every Democrat. I revere Al Gore. I find it incredibly tedious to point out the many ways in which he would have been a better President than Ralph Nader, George Bush, Nancy Pelosi, etc. Gore's intelligence, competence and insight are readily apparent. The "lesser evil" slurs are not applicable. Nader ruined our chance to have an extraordinary President. Your across-the-board endorsement of any Third Party candidate makes no sense to me. Evaluate the individual. Evaluate the situation. Apply strategy.
Nader, for example, has no voting record since he has never held office. Does that mean he would have a perfect voting record if he were elected? No principles of logic exist to back such a claim. Demanding perfection of candidates is a strange and destructive strategy.

I am disgusted by the failure of both parties to end the war, protect the environment and halt our rapid spiral toward fascism. If Gore were President none of the above would be problem.

jstevens August 19th, 2008 12:25 am writes, "You are an excellent spokesperson for your cause."
-thanks.

jstevens August 19th, 2008 12:25 am writes, "tailcap: Are the abundant grammatical errors also added for emphasis?
-correct, I think you get my point. Right?

jstevens writes, "Your clever application of obscenities is a fine substitute for valid points."
-valid points? How about these:

Your Democrats:
1) Refuse to stop funding the war
2) Refuse to impeach Bush
3) Refuse to hold Bush accountable for torturing
4) Allow right-wingers like Mukasey and others to be confirmed
5) Confirmed right-wingers into the Supreme Court
6) Rubber stamp gargantuan military budgets
7) Allow Bush to spew 935 lies about the war
Allow Cheny to out CIA agents and defy subpoenas
9) Granted Bush and the Telecoms immunity
10) Insert your favorite Democratic Party capitulation here:____________________________­_________________.

obscenities?
-which ones?

Why should we vote for Democrats? What have they done for us since taking over the Congress? How about the last 4 yrs, last 8 yrs?

I am pretty sure you have no answer to my points, so that is why you pointed out the grammatical errors. Typical DPA obfuscation and red herrings. Weak.

tailcap: Are the abundant grammatical errors also added for emphasis?
Your clever application of obscenities is a fine substitute for valid points.

You are an excellent spokesperson for your cause.

By the way, I was able to get 50 people along with myself to donate to Cindy Sheehan's campaign and we're from the Carolinas, Kansas, Alabama, and Idaho.

bill... drilling... oops. i thought it was another article about former president clinton.

It must really suck to be a Democrat and open thread after thread and have to deal with the reality that Democrats are as despised as Republicans. It's like every news article throws salt on their wounds. It has to be total agony. OUCH!

Ted Markow August 18th, 2008 9:55 pm writes, "Yeah, like: GO Fascists! GO Nazis! GO Libertarians! GO Right-wing neocon Fundamentalists! GO anarchists!"

-This DPA displays the moral bankruptcy and dishonesty of the Democratic Party he advocates for. Notice how this DPA is insinuating that I am advocating for fascists and right-wing neocons instead of the principled Greens and the principled Ralph Nader I mentioned.

The "GO anybody but a God-damned Democrat!" was added for emphasis but apparently went over this DPA's head so he takes it literally.

Duplicity and dishonesty are hallmarks of Democrats and their supporters.

YEAH! They may be morally bankrupt but VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS ANYWAY!
They may be traitors but VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS ANYWAY!
They may be sold out but VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS ANYWAY!
They don't uphold the law but VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS ANYWAY!
They let Repugs crap all over the Constitution but VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS ANYWAY!

GO MORALLY BANKRUPT DEMOCRATS GO! ( morally-bankrupt-lesser-evilist-it-could-be-worse mentality )

So vote for Obama or Mcnut case, but nothing is going to change if you vote for the same sell out scumbags in the Democratic or Republican party.
Vote for a change, fire Nancy Pelosi, send a message to the sell-out.
Cindy Sheehan for Congress.
cindyforcongress.com

"GO Greens! GO Nader! GO 3rd parties! GO anybody but a God-damned Democrat!"

Yeah, like: GO Fascists! GO Nazis! GO Libertarians! GO Right-wing neocon Fundamentalists! GO anarchists!

The Democratic Party may be morally bankrupt, but there is worse. Keep wishing for it...you'll probably get it.

TeriD: The quotation is, "how can I tell what I think till I see what I say?", and it's from E. M. Forster ("Aspects of the Novel"), not Flannery O'Connor.

RichM: Excellent post. That really sums up the mess we're in.

Radio-tec,

Thanks for that spot-on link!

I have a different scenario to offer re the DLC Dims.

The deal was cut between the Right-wing DLC "New Democrats" including the Clinton people and key corporatist Democrats like Lee Hamilton and others BEFORE Clinton took office.

The deal was to:

(1) Avoid prosecuting Bush Sr. and his crew of Reagan-Bushites for Iran-Contra.

(2) For leaders of BOTH Parties and Big Media to either disparage or ignore Special Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh (a Republican appointed by Bush Sr. who, surprisingly, took his job seriously) as he was finishing his Iran-Contra investigation and trying to get Bush Sr. to turn over evidence from his diaries that Bush Sr. and his attorney had previously promised and then reneged on (prior to slamming Walsh and pardoning everyone).

(3) Select highly corporatist leaders within the DLC were paid behind closed doors (by the same list of suspects who finance both Parties' campaigns) with offshore accounts to act as a faux opposition Party in perpetuity: The deal here was to allow Clinton into PRE-OPTIONED power in exchange for Clinton passing the Right-wing agenda of [A]"welfare reform", [B]"banking reform," [C]"telecomm reform," and the "free trade" regime of [D]NAFTA and [E]WTO, [F]instigating "secret rendition," promoting more [G]brutal and un-Constitutional federal police powers (Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.), and [H] disappearing Iran/Contra and any related investigations.

(4) Clinton may have even fooled himself that he could eventually get off their leash, but once he outlived his usefulness to them: Viola! Monica Lewinsky and complete Big Media complicity in impeaching Clinton in the press and in the House.

(5) Why? Because key DLC corporatist Dems with locks on their seats in historically strong, and, over time, increasingly lazy-minded and naive Democratic strongholds were guaranteed to keep those seats without serious challenge in exchange for the DLC passing a stealth Right-wing agenda into law that the public was always more resistant to (absent a Pearl Harbor-like event) when the Republicans were in power.

I believe The Deal's been in place ever since and the most overt foreign policy example of it was the selectively GOP/DLC Iraq Study Group that the Cheney ultra-extremists ignored except for swapping out necessary scapegoat Donald Rumsfeld for older guard Robert Gates. The other foreign and domestic policy evidence of this deal is too extensive to list in a forum response--even ones as typically long as mine.

I really do believe the DLC was BOUGHT and paid for behind closed doors a longer while back than most people who suspect this think. I've been watching the nature and outcomes of the DLC mindset for too many decades now and watched the damage unfold. Clinton's economic henchpersons were some of the worst.

Sorry for the repitition but this one bears repeating.

I read an article on the no-compromise drilling only "compromise" and Climate Progress. http://climateprogress.org/2008/08/14/the-big-lie-blog-round-up/ One thing that stuck out was a link near the bottom of the page. http://environmentaldefenseblogs.org/climateatlas/2008/08/12/where-is-our-offshore-oil/ I checked it and it led me to the US Minerals Management Service website and I looked at their charts and it turns out that only 18 billion barrels of oil are in the moratorium areas of the Outer Continental Shelf and 68 billion are in areas that are OK to drill. To give you an appreciation of the scale of 18 billion barrels of oil at our current rate of consumption we would use that up in 2½ years. I've provided a link for you. You can just scan through the article and get the flavor of it.

Samson you are right. Maybe I should put it in quotes, "traitors". My rationale is that they pose like they are "against" Repugs. Because Dems are SUPPOSE to be on our side that's why I call them "traitors". But you are absolutely correct, Democrats are the enemy.

RSJ August 18th, 2008 7:30 am writes, "progressives viciously attacking their own.."
-in the mind of this DPA who has swallowed hook, line and sinker, we are attacking our "own". Also notice this, RSJ: "dedicated Dem haters" as if we are unjustified in hating the Dems for protecting and assisting Repugs. Like it's us not them! It's hard to fathom such willful stupidity.

Wait and see. The subsidies will remain in place also. The Democrats just give away one corporate gift at a time, just to prolong the show that they are making a small fight of it. There really is no difference between these two parties, at least not at the leadership level.

1:15 p.m.:BULLETIN: THE U.S. ACADEMY OF SCIENCE TODAY HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT DEMOCRATS ARE HEREAFTER TO BE REFERRED TO AS INVERTEBRATES...
1:16 p.m. Pelosi, Reid + Co. protested loudly, promise investigation;
1:17 p.m. Pelosi, Reid + Co. seek compromise
1:18 p.m. Pelosi, Reid + Co. ask for new quarters in a petri dish...

Tailcap ..."Republicans are the enemy and the Democrats are the traitors that aid the enemy."

I'd only have a slight disagreement with that. Personally, I'd say "Republicans are the enemy, and the Democrats are the enemy as well."

You can't be a traitor to a cause you've never supported. And for most Democrats today, they've never supported any cause that the big money that feeds their campaigns didn't support. The Democrats aren't really traitors. They are just the enemy.

frog .... "Congress will take months to get this all worked out. When is congress going to finally do what the majority of America wants, instead of looking out for their interests?"

Never. Because they don't care what the majority of Americans want. They only care what their big contributors want. When they are different, like with your list, then what the majority of Americans want gets tossed in the trash can.

The key to changing this is to stop voting for the candidates with all the corporate money behind them. We need to elect candidates that will care about what Americans want. The easy rule to follow to get to that point is to never vote for the candidates you see on TV.

The reason for this is obvious. The Democrats don't believe in anything besides winning an election. There is absolutely nothing that they won't sell-out to achieve this.

We've already seen them willingly surrender the Constitution of the US and the concept of separation of powers between the branches. In the basic fact that they say they won't go for impeachment because they are worried about the next election we have seen them sell away our Constitution.

Why on earth would we think that selling out our beaches so that they become oil-soaked disaster areas would bother them?

Enough already.

This is obscene. It's a shame that, in this country, those wishing to develop minerals seem to have more rights than surface owners, fisherman/women and other water users, and the rest of us. It's true. Look at the way mineral ownership laws are structured.

The "use it or lose it" amendment(s) should have been passed for existing federal leases and, afterwards, all remaining areas should have been permanently protected from mineral development, especially areas on federal lands and important marine areas. Also, existing mineral rights on high value conservation lands like roadless areas, old growth areas, and important marine areas should have been purchased so they could be permanently protected from mineral development. Instead this pitiful Congress has lost its backbone and wants to lease MORE and MORE areas. None of this will change until mining companies and extractive energy companies no longer control Congress's pursestrings.

Congress will take months to get this all worked out. When is congress going to finally do what the majority of America wants, instead of looking out for their interests?

1.) Strong boarder
2.) Reduced illegal imigration and fair immigration policies
3.) Independence from foriegn oil
4.) Reduced government spending
5.) A plan to withdraw from Iraq

Poor RSJ-- "outraged naiveté" is in the eye of the beholder. Project much?

Conflating "progressives" and "Democrats" is dubious enough, and the argument isn't improved by the speculative fantasy that the Democrats may not be ENABLERS or colluders, but rather hostages, or captives, of the Republican Ruling Kleptocracy.

This perspective evokes the classic rationalization of a brokenhearted parent plaintively explaining that a juvenile delinquent kid is basically a GOOD kid who just fell in with the wrong crowd.

As tailcap points out, the duopoly consists of the Party of Cain and the Party of Judas.

Please find another word for Republicans. Pugs do not fight for the rich. They are cute little dogs. In NY there was a "Pugs for Peace" rally in Washington Square in which pugs marched round and round the fountain "until they got bored".

RSJ August 18th, 2008 7:30 am writes "...— and the notion that the Dems are worse than the GOP..."
-worse? Certainly no better.

Republicans are the enemy and the Democrats are the traitors that aid the enemy. That is the difference. The jury is out on which one I hate more. At least the Pugs don't betray their base. Pugs fight for the rich. Who do the Dims fight for?

Democrats protect Pugs because they are complicit. Democrats chose Pelosi as their leader because she represents what they stand for. If Kucinich represented what Dims stand for, he would be their leader. It's obvious he gets short shrift. Isn't it RSJ?

Tell me RSJ what have the Democrats accomplished for you in the last 2 yrs since taking over the Congress? How about the last 4 or even 8 yrs? Notice the Repugs are in the minority and still call the shots. Why can't the Dims do anything if they control the Congress?

Can you list some reasons to vote for Dims that aren't reasons to not vote for Pugs? Can you come up with a rationale that isn't entirely elementary lesser-evilism?

DPAs like RSJ are noteworthy for their desperation in trying to find some justification for the traitorous behavior of his Democrats.

Rather then reach the rather obvious conclusion that Democrats go along with Republican policies because they represent the same interests and The Big Money lines both their pockets, he goes way out on a limb without even a shred of evidence and weaves a tale of espionage and blackmail as the reason Dems have sold out.

What escapes the twisted logic and limited reasoning powers of this DPA is that his feeble argument is actually making a case for getting rid of the weakling Democrats that cannot stand up to the bullying Republicans rather than voting for them!

RSJ August 18th, 2008 7:30 am writes ""You go along with us until 2009 — including leaving impeachment off the table, not prosecuting members of the Bush administration and letting us keep our money — and we'll leave office quietly..."
-what a pathetically weak, spineless, unprincipled and cowardly capitulation to the extreme right wing. You are disgusting!

Get this: THE POOR GOD-DAMNED DEMOCRATS GOT BLACKMAILED SO THEY HAD TO LET THE REPUBLICANS RUN ROUGHSHOD OVER THE CONSTITUTION AND OUR COUNTRY!!!!! Is this crap for real?

This gives you an insight into how DPAs (Dem Party apologists) think. They stop at no amount of mental gymnastics and contortions to concoct a rationale to defend the indefensible. RSJ you need to grow some balls!
Forget about checks and ballances, forget about the law and the Constitution. The poor Dems can't help it! So they:

1) Refuse to stop funding the war
2) Refuse to impeach Bush
3) Refuse to hold Bush accountable for torturing
4) Allow right-wingers like Mukasey and others to be confirmed
5) Confirmed right-wingers into the Supreme Court
6) Rubber stamp gargantuan military budgets
7) Allow Bush to spew 935 lies about the war
8) Allow Cheny to out CIA agents and defy subpoenas
9) Granted Bush and the Telecoms immunity
10) Insert your favorite Democratic Party capitulation here:__________________________________________.

If the Democrats are as weak and compromised as you claim then more reason to get rid of all of them and replace them with Greens!!!!!!!!!!!

GO Greens! GO Nader! GO 3rd parties! GO anybody but a God-damned Democrat!

PEOPLE: They're all chasing the same corporate money! Why are you continually surprised that they all act the same? The Democratic leaders are as tainted as the Republican ones and have the same burning disinterest in exposing those who have sold out to their corporate paymasters.

RSJ,

Interesting thoughts...once I got through the condescension.

Let me ask you: If the Republicans really had the power to as you say - declare martial law and disband Congress - why wouldn't they just do it without any threats? I mean, the neocons have already shown us what a bunch of fascists they are.

Labeling those who oppose Democratic Party fecklessness and ineptitude as neocons is wrong and naive. Without a strong stance by the people, we will have one party in name and ideology. As it is, the people have been far too silent and we have two parties in name and one in ideology. The people need to scream loudly and often and they absolutely need to hold their representatives' feet to the fire. We are the very last line between an open society and fascism. That fascism is already here is due in major part to the fact that the American people have been silent and lazy.

Finally, I will vote for Obama. I live with one foot in the reality I wish to see, and one in the reality that is. No sense in making the reality that is any worse. And it can get worse.

What a great and useless list of outraged naiveté -- some of it in SCREAMING CAPS -- and the notion that the Dems are worse than the GOP -- why Karl Rove himself couldn't have blueprinted it any better -- progressives viciously attacking their own. (Assuming all of you ARE the progressives you purport to be.) Of course anyone with half a brain knows offshore drilling is just a giveaway to Big Oil, but why would the Dems do this? You think you have all the answers -- they're cowards, plutocrats, etc. and etc., ad nauseum.

I ask you, for the sake of argument, to consider a different viewpoint: Let's say that following the Dem takeover of Congress after the 2006 elections, Cheney or one of his minions went to the Dem leadership and said "You go along with us until 2009 -- including leaving impeachment off the table, not prosecuting members of the Bush administration and letting us keep our money -- and we'll leave office quietly in January 2007. Oppose us, try to impeach or prosecute any one of us or interfere in our business in any serious way, and we'll declare martial law based on some national emergency, suspend the 2008 elections, and disband Congress. Then we'll see who the military, the media and the people will follow. You might get the country back eventually, but we'll destroy it in the meantime and, of course, there's a good chance you'll never get the country back and we'll be dictators for life. It's your choice."

I imagine none of you dedicated Dem haters ever imagined that or a similar scenario, yet you all know the Bush/Cheney thugs are fully capable of such a move.

That said, I hope Cindy Sheehan beats Nancy Pelosi -- the country needs more progressive 'citizen-politicians' like Ms. Sheehan.

tailcap [August 17th, 2008 5:21 pm] wrote: "Go McKinney! Go Nader! Go anybody but a God-damned Democrat!"

Anybody? The goddamned Constitution Party? The goddamned American Nazi Party? The goddamned Republican Party? You'd really rather see a Republican in the presidency than a Democrat? You'd rather see the country go down the drain completely? That's the kind of pure, vile, unthinking hatred that the far-right neocons display.

yes, but how 'bout offshore rigs as green-built eco-villages?
hadn't thought of that, huh?

since the world is getting progressively more sick as we speak, the thing to do is to consider the eventual outcome of having a really solid and debilitating illness

the many strands of nature that support the planet as human habitat are unraveling and dissolving and ... reshaping themselves as ever-more-nauseating balls of disaster and decay

can't wait to see obama shuffle the deck chairs -- or, if the more deliberately obvious borderline personality disordered candidate gets in, how determinedly he will nail them to the deck as the passengers all get water-boarded

Politicians are self-cracking nuts in denial.

Nancy Pelosi is beyond contempt--she is a sad, silly, witless, and inept figure. In two years other than posing as the woman who broke through the glass ceiling of house leadership what has she done?--not much of anything. Go Cindy Sheehan--not just for this year's election but the next two as well because the Pelos needs replacing.

I agree with Mr Ted Markow. The interview between Bill Moyers and Andrew Bacevich forced me to drink a few more glasses of wine and was a reality check for all of us seeking a change in direction. I recommend that all of you get a copy of the interview and ship it all over the nation and another to the MSM.

This is what OTC thinks about Pelosi and the dims.We are so screwed!

tailcap (8:23) I agree. I was talking about politics, not character. Both parties take bribes from the same special interests. It's not even a secret anymore.

It's not the dems or pubs that are the problem as much as it is those who vote for and those who control the votes for those who think they are one or the other.

We need much higher gas and food prices, many more foreclosures and bank failures, higher job losses, more outsourcing, a few major health crises, more wars on at least a half dozen different fronts including a nuclear war; several power plant catastrophes in the US, and several more really bad winters before the public or what's left come to their senses. Fortunately, all of this is on the way.

zaz August 17th, 2008 8:05 pm writes, "They know how to frame an issue and put the dumbs on defence."
-I know, so it seems, but I think Dems aren't really as stupid and cowardly as they appear.

Democrats go along with Republican policies because they represent the same interests. The Big Money is smart enough to line both their pockets. That's why it doesn't really matter that much who wins, be it McCain or Obama. Either way, the policies that favor the plutocracy/oligarchy will prevail not the policies that favor us.

Witness how giving control of the Congress to Democrats did nothing to stop the war or protect our civil rights (FISA).

It's too bad repugs don't have a soul. They're so much smarter. They know how to frame an issue and put the dumbs on defence. I think it will be a long time before big oil even thinks about off shore drilling. Too much high quality and easy to drill oil on the planet

I say go for it, add the drilling, with one more provision: the oil companies lose any leases they don't use in five years. The Democrats often say the oil companies have 68 million acres, but never say that's an area about the size of Colorado, which is a measure much easier to understand. That's plenty of area, so clearly the oil companies don't drill now because they don't want to. they just want to control more reserves in order to increase their stock prices. Give them more land and just five years to get started, and they're unlikely to use it.

They're even less likely to use off-shore leases, because there's already a five year backlog on the ships that set up platforms. In other words, go ahead and give them the entire coast, because they won't use it. Meanwhile, since the Republicans just want a political issue, they just might take it not caring or understanding the five year limit, and they might even go for the loss of oil subsidies and the increase in alternative energy research. If they won't go for it, then Democrats have no option but to do better at countering Republican arguments.

i'm so sick of the dem party apologists... i waste my breathe and words trying to explain to those people that change doesn't come in making concession after concession and toeing the party line...but rather in revolution and active civic leadership and calls for impeachment and major accountability.

just today i see in my mail someone i know wants me to go to a rally on clean energy sponsored by moveon.org. and i distinctly recall telling this knucklehead that i don't support that organization! i guess i'll have to reiterate that and unless moveon.org calls for democratic accountability and stops pretending that only the repulicans are responsible for all the ills of this crumbling society in existence today, and continue slavishly praising obama and other dems, then i'm just not interested in a damn thing that they try to rally. i also unsubscribed to moveone.org; i don't want anymore of their junk emails.

At this point I'd be willing to give Big Oil leases to the whole d@mn continent, just to prove that psychological games will not cause the price of oil to drop back to 1972 levels. Maybe MAYBE then we could get serious about committing to tax credits for renewable energy sources. Maybe we'd even be able to rise to Al Gore's challenge from a few weeks ago.

The political cowardice of the Democratic leadership, including Obama and Pelosi, is sickening. All really knowledgeable experts agree that drilling adds risk to the environment and will not materially affect the oil supply or gas prices. When can our leaders learn there is sometimes more political advantage in honesty than in cowardly concessions?

A couple of days ago, Bill Moyers interviewed Andrew Bacevich, author of the book, "The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism." This was one of Moyers best pieces - ever!

The following snippet of the conversation went as follows (note: Bacevich was talking about the war in Iraq, however, it can be extrapolated to everything else that the Democrats have not done in the last 2 years):

BILL MOYERS: And, yet, you say that the prime example of political dysfunction today is the Democratic Party in relation to Iraq.

ANDREW BACEVICH: Well, I may be a conservative, but I can assure you that, in November of 2006, I voted for every Democrat I could possibly come close to. And I did because the Democratic Party, speaking with one voice, at that time, said that, "Elect us. Give us power in the Congress, and we will end the Iraq War."

And the American people, at that point, adamantly tired of this war, gave power to the Democrats in Congress. And they absolutely, totally, completely failed to follow through on their commitment. Now, there was a lot of posturing. But, really, the record of the Democratic Congress over the past two years has been - one in which, substantively, all they have done is to appropriate the additional money that enables President Bush to continue that war.

BILL MOYERS: And you say the promises of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi prove to be empty. Reid and Pelosi's commitment to forcing a change in policy took a backseat to their concern to protect the Democratic majority.

ANDREW BACEVICH: Could anybody disagree with that?

------

The online interview and full transcript can be found at http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08152008/profile.html

I highly recommend it.

Gail: 12:10 PM post, I second Rtdrury, You're right!

RichM: Perfectly defined description of the Democrats. Too many still don't get it!

I was at an event for Cindy Sheehan several nights ago, and what a big difference between the agendas of Cindy and Bush's friend Nancy Pelosi. Cindy's speech moved the audience with her honest explanations and what she as a Congresswoman would try to do when in office. No false promises or pie-in-the-sky schemes compared to the deceitful tactics of Speaker Pelosi.
I have volunteered my services in Cindy's campaign for this November's election. I encourage people in the San Francisco Bay area to participate in whatever capacity they can and help with the donations. Unfortunately, it takes a mint running for election. Pelosi is well-funded and Cindy needs our help. Go to www.cindyforcongress.org

Peace and Harmony

"This comprehensive Democratic approach will ensure energy independence which is essential to our national security, will create millions of good paying jobs here at home in a new green economy,..."
-and according to the sold out Democrats the ONLY way we could do this is by caving into Republican demands for offshore drilling in spite of the fact Democrats control the Congress and Republicans are a minority. It's the ONLY way!

Go McKinney! Go Nader! Go anybody but a God-damned Democrat!

In anti-honor of this latest spineless DLC betrayal taking the path of least resistance to further harm our environment and future generations, I offer up this old poem of mine for those who remember how the DLC types let the New Right keep screwing us from before Bush Sr. left office to all through the '90s and beyond. They never let up on the attack even when they are presumed down and the DLC never fails to turn and run even when it reaches a moderate cyclical peak. The poem emulates the idiom of Rudyard Kipling's Barracks Poems.

THE ERA OF THE STINKY NEWTZI PINKS

Our soldiers fought with many 'crost the seas,
An' some of 'em was brave and some was not.
Reagan Dim'crats, Libertarians – likes o'these;
But the Far Right Pink was foulest 'o the lot.
We never caught 'im changin' pants guard down:
'E squatted in the bush an' built 'is forces,
'E cut our sentries up by buyin' the Press
An' butchered up our information sources.

So 'ere's to you, Stinky Pinky,
At your home in suburb land;
You're a brainwashed fascist cadre
But a first class fightin' man.
We gives you your certificate
An' if you want it signed,
We'll come an' have a mosh wiv you
Whenever you're inclined.

'E 'asn't got no scruples of 'is own;
'Is highest Gods are Mammon 'an the sword,
But we must recognize the skill 'e's shown
In usin' of 'is Limbaugh twisted words.
When 'e's poppin' in an' out amongst the bushes
Wiv 'is fundamint'list voter pamphlette fear,
An 'appy day wiv Pinky quoting Rush
Will last a nauseous Dem-ocrat the year.

So 'ere's to you, Stinky Pinky,
An' the missus an' the kid;
Our orders was to break you,
An' in '92 we did.
We sloshed you wiv martinis
And it wasn't 'ardly fair,
But since George H. W. fell from office
The Pink has broke the Dem-ocratic square.

In '94 we chanst the Ozark 'ills
Orange County thumped us silly at a mile,
Herr Phil Gram gave us Bergen Belsen chills
An' a slimey Newt dished Congress up in style.
But all we ever got from such as they
Was pop to what the Pink Boys made us swaller;
We might 'ave 'eld our own the papers said,
But special interest Pinks outspent our dollars.

So 'ere's to you, Stinky Pinky,
An' Tricky Dick who is no more;
If we hadn't lost some Congress seats
We would 'ave trounced the Grand Old Whore.
But give an' take's the gospel
An' we've won our greater share,
For if routinely you lose more than us
You crumpled up the square.

'E rushes at the smoke when we let fire,
An' before we know 'e's taken Foley's 'ead;
Hot piss and vinegar upon the march,
An' 'e's generally shammin' when 'e's dead.
'E's a smelly lyin' multnational hack
On a low potential high achiever spree:
'E's the only thing that doesn't give a damn
For no precinct Dem-ocratic infantry.

So 'ere's to you, Stinky Pinky,
At your home in suburb land;
You're a brainwashed fascist bootlick,
but a first-class fightin' man.
An' 'ere's to you, Stinky Pinky
An' Newt's Dick Armey on the tear;
With regimental goose-steps all
You broke the Dem-ocratic square.

copyright 1998

The top 10 reasons offshore drilling is such a dumb idea:

10. Offshore oil drilling won't impact gas prices today, and it won't lower gas prices in the future. Look for $10/gal in five years; $20/gal in 10 if this madness continues.

9. This is nothing more than a money grab by the oil companies - who are already making record-breaking profits.

8. We burn 25% of the world's oil here in the U.S., but we have only 3% of the world's oil reserves. So even if all offshore oil magically came to market today, the vast majority of our oil would continue to be imported, and we wouldn't see price relief at the pump.

7. The current moratorium was put in place decades ago to protect us from the danger of oil spills along our coastlines and beaches.

6. Burning fossil fuels like oil causes global warming, which causes stronger hurricanes, which will threaten the very offshore drilling rigs being proposed, which will contribute to even more global warming.

5. To avoid the worst impacts of global warming, we need to switch from fossil fuels to renewable energy within the next 10 years. The billions of dollars that would be spent on offshore oil drilling just postpones the inevitable transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy.

4. Oil exploration requires massive seismic testing - which threatens whales and dolphins.

3. Oil prices are set on the global oil market, so American oil is no cheaper than Saudi oil. We won't get a discount for oil drilled in the U.S.

2. We can't solve the world's energy problems with the same drilling that created them.

1. Renewable energy is available now, so it's time to walk away from fossil fuels and toward a clean energy future.
Let's face it, there's really no good reason to drill offshore. More drilling is good for Big Oil, not for you and your family. We can't drill our way out of this mess - oil drilling is already at an all-time high and prices are still skyrocketing.

As a matter of fact, even if we could tap into all of the energy stored in the Earth's reserves - coal, oil, and natural gas - it would equal the energy in just 20 days of sunshine. Tell Congress to look on the bright side to solve our energy crisis. It's time to invest in renewable energy and leave oil to the dinosaurs. It's time for an energy revolution.

Power to the people!

(adapted from GREENPEACE)

I can't wait to throw that neocon wannabe bitch out of office this fall. She does not represent the will of the people of her district in any way. We the people of the Bay Area want Bush & Cheney removed from office and put on trial for war crimes and the citizens of San Francisco will remove Pelosi from power for refusing to uphold her oath of office. She is a degrading, shameful stain on our wonderful city and will be replaced by Cindy Sheehan soon. Our deepest apologies for letting you down America. Please consider supporting Ralph Nader and our hometown golden boy, Matt Gonzales, in any way you can in their quest to rout and discredit the neocons from taking complete control of our nation. Thank you.

Headline and photo cutline are exactly so.

DEMOCRATS.....COWARDS AND LIARS....THEY WILL SELL THE WORKING CLASS AND THE POOR, CHILDREN, AMERICANS, ELDERLY, MINORITIES AND EVERYONE OUTSIDE THE ELITE RICH WASPS d o w n t h e r i v e r !!

VOTE NADER....VOTE GREEN...VOTE ANYTHING OTHER THAN DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN...THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

yes we the people contract out to the oil monopolies the rights to our oil which at any price they see fit too they may sell it back to us....further we will give you all sorts of extra incentives above and beyond profits...

we do this because you have taken such good and fair care of us and we wish our children and grand children to be under more of the same.

Pelousy sez: "(The bill) will consider opening portions of the (offshore) Outer Continental Shelf for drilling, with appropriate safeguards, and without taxpayer subsidies to Big Oil."

***

Yes (drilling).
No (safeguards).
NO (shortage of taxpayer subsidies).

Forget about royalties. Oil companies will place their newfound offshore drilling leases on their books as assets to boost their stock value. But they won't actually drill until the price of a barrel climbs yet higher so as to guarantee the maximum possible profit.
Just as they're not drilling the 68 million acres upon which they already possess leases.

Kabuki theatre, all of it.

DUMB ASS AMERIKA. HOME OF THE FLEECED AND DEPRAVED.

Al Gore would not have been for more offshore drilling.
It is not always about party affiliation. Evaluate the individual.

Check out the Texas Gulf Coast. The waters are filthy with hypodermic needles, oil, and cruise ship trash and garbage. The houses lining the beaches are so thick that one can't see the beach or the sea. What's one more off-shore oil rig digging up silt and dripping stuff!

homeward-angel,

The so-called "liberal" blogosphere has become just as bad as the "conservative" blogosphere. They don't want us to stand up to the two-party duopoly. If Nader had been in office for 8 years, we'd be pumping and manufacturing with hemp and crude oil would be on its way out. Democrat or Republican, America's gonna be stuck with having to SLOP up the last of the fossil fuels even if it has to further DROWN itself in wars just to get it and while at it, they pump up the nuclear shit and then divert and misuse it towards wars rather than reusability or even safely disposing its waste. America is on its way to DEATH whether it likes it or not and GOD IS SEVERELY PUNISH IT TO ETERNAL DAMNATION !!! SAD !!

This is another example of why we should have a Senate that is elected according to party lists and proportionally represents us. States in the Gulf Coast that want oil driling get 8 senators: Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, and the state that is opposed to it gets 2: Florida.

Gail, you're right:

"A GAO report says omissions and litigation could keep the federal government from recouping $53 billion in oil royalties, even as oil companies enjoy record profits." - publicradio.org

"New projections, buried in the Interior Department's just-published budget plan, anticipate that the government will let companies pump about $65 billion worth of oil and natural gas from federal territory over the next five years without paying any royalties to the government." - nytimes.com

Pelosi and company have betrayed the American People and should be voted out of office. Their party at best is inept, incapable of action. After being elected by pretending they would end the illegal occupation of Iraq, they have continued to fund it. They have yet to oppose the president on any issue of significance. I once thought the democrats might bring about change. I know now they would not. I must, consequently, either vote for a third party, or not bother voting at all. I feel cheated.

why can i no longer post links on this site? its really pissing me off!

who wants to go swimming?

yahoo images, type in "offshore drilling"

what a nice, scenic view! just what i want to see when i spend thousands to go on vacation!

Does the environment have a price? if they could, these oilmen would sell the air for-profit!

I have decided that drilling ANWR might as well go ahead. Otherwise, it would just end up being the only decent piece of the US on earth, the rest having been ruined by our two-party corporate state.

vote anyone but the two parties

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!! Daniel FUCKING David must be shitting in his pants yet again. I CAN HARDLY WAIT FOR NOVEMBER WHEN RALPH NADER TAKES A HUGE CHUNK OF THE VOTE FROM BOTH CANDIDATES EVEN IF THAT GIVES JOHN MCCAIN A 50 STATE VICTORY AND THE DEMOCRATS LOSE PLENTY OF SEATS IN BOTH CHAMBERS !!!!

HASTA LA VISTA DEMOCRATS !!!! WE THE SUPER PISSED OFF VOTERS WHO GAVE YOU OUR LAST GOD DAMN MOTHERFUCKING TRUST IN 2006 BUT SINCE YOU FUCKING BETRAYED US IN THE WORST POSSIBLE WAYS NEVER BEFORE SEEN IN AMERICAN HISTORY, WE LOOK FORWARD TO SUPER SMASHING YOU MOTHERFUCKING COWARDS LIKE A BATTERING RAM !!!!

AND TO YOU IGNORANT JACKASS PARTY HACKS, DON'T EVEN TRY TO COVER UP BY TRYING TO BULLSHIT US ABOUT THE GOP BOGEYMAN BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS HAD 2 FUCKING YEARS TO SLOW THEM DOWN AND THEY FUCKING BLEW IT !!!!

TO HELL THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY !!!! LOL !! LOL !! LOL !!

VOTENADER.ORG !!!!

YYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!

It is tempting to say that the Democrats are chicken shit. But that would be incorrect. They are doing exactly what their constituents want them to do. The problem? As I have said before, you and I are not their constituents. The real constituents are: military industrial complex, big corporations (including oil), and Israel.

The other problem is that Americans are too dumb to understand the reality. Even the "progressives" think that St. Obama is the solution..... Yes we can (kill more Afghan civilians).... Yes we can (spy on Americans).... Yes we can (continue to fund the illegal war)..... Yes we can (continue to de-ligitimize the elected government of Hamas).

The problem is that We the People have been lobotomized to We the Sheeple.

I must object strenuously to any metaphor such as "pussies" that is used to describe the "democratic" party. Pussies are good and warm and sweet. To paraphrase Lenny Bruce, I love to hug them and kiss them. No "democrat" rates anywhere near so highly. It would be more apt to compare the "democrats" to a case of the clap. If we don't take all the penicillin as prescribed by doctor, they are definitely coming back.

When the Democrats swept the midterm elections in 2006, it showed that the public was aware of the growing crisis in the US system. One must give the long-suffering public some credit: despite daily bombardment with propaganda, & all the diversions of the consumer society, the public was trying, as best as it knew how, to rid itself of the starring cast of criminals.

Nothing could more clearly demonstrate the Tweedle-Dum / Tweedle-Dee nature of the US political system than the immense betrayal that followed this election. The controlling party changed, but the policies did not change. The personalities in the limelight changed -- instead of a rotund white male Republican as Speaker, we had a trim white Democratic female as Speaker. He had a double chin, while she is perky & cute! // But the torture, the wars, the war spending, the spying on Americans, & the protection of the Bush criminals -- none of this even missed a beat.

Now we face a presidential election in which both candidates compete in sucking up to AIPAC, to evangelicals, to the oil companies, & to Wall St generally. Will the next administration have a Treasury Secretary like Hank Paulson, a Republican from Goldman Sachs; or more like Robert Rubin, the Democrat from Goldman Sachs? Will the next president be a half-cracked senile white man that threatens Iran; or a half-black vigorous & intelligent young man that threatens Iran? Those "differences" are so important, you know.

I suppose you can say the Republicans believe in something, as small, selfish and homicidal as it is. But the Democrats- The Soft Machine - don't believe in anything anymore except acting proudly like cowards, pussies and opportunists. I guess that's what they mean by triangulation.

I'm curious how many readers are going to vote for their democratic party representatives in the coming election.
Here in New Mexico we have Tom Udall, a progressive dem running for the senate.
I won't vote for him or any dem.
I'll either support an independant or write in a candidate.
There is no way anyone who considers himself a progressive can support any dem; even Kucinich - who has got to go independant...

Are you all aware that the U.S. has set a record for oil EXPORTS this year?!

the most distressing aspect of pelosi and the dems kissing the ass of the imperial masters is how obvious it makes their roles as stooges - lackeys who do their masters bidding

they were elected to make some changes - they have failed miserably

as will obama by the way

the idea that the wishes of the american public has any input into the imperial death machine is laughable

so go and vote if you like - it is akin to pissing in the wind - don't be surprised if you feel cheap and unclean when you are done

don't be surprised if the neocon/fascist/nwo/rothschild bank cabal goes ahead and does whatever the hell they feel like, as they always have

they have controlled the government totally since the fool reagan's administration

same fools and sycophants who run bush today

their world view has been expressed in american foreign policy since that time

that clinton is seen as an alternative to these psychos belies the neverending ability of americans to buy the lemon time and time again

thank you corporate media - we couldn't control the masses without you

Crumbling? Methinks collusion.

"Pelosi said the legislation would require oil companies to pay billions of dollars in drilling royalties, which would be invested in clean energy resources."

Hmmmm...seems I've read somewhere in the distant past that oil companies already owe the U.S. government billions in royalty payments. If memory serves me, the oil companies were given some kind of "royalties-deferment" deal.

Wouldn't the GAO be able to compile a list of royalty-evaders over the past few decades? It would be interesting to discover how much $$$$ the oil companies actually owe the U.S. government/taxpayers.

Flannery O'\Conner has a famous quote about writing:

"How can I see what I think, 'til I see what I say."

Politicians twist that to- How do I know what to say, til I see what they think.

"Strong Democratic Leaders Crumble Like Feta Chese" Please tell me when you have some Real News.

Feta cheese has an element of mold running through it. Very good on salads and smoe pasta dishes.
question: are dem leaders giving in to the demands, right or wrong, of the American people? If they are, that their job. It should be up to us to convince the people to think of other alternatives to either the GOP or the DEM party.
Be careful of tooooo much feta - putrid dia-rear!