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US May Ease Police Spy Rules
WASHINGTON - The Justice Department has proposed a new domestic spying measure that would make it easier for state and local police to collect intelligence about Americans, share the sensitive data with federal agencies and retain it for at least 10 years.
The proposed changes would revise the federal government's rules for police intelligence-gathering for the first time since 1993 and would apply to any of the nation's 18,000 state and local police agencies that receive roughly $1.6 billion each year in federal grants.
Quietly unveiled late last month, the proposal is part of a flurry of domestic intelligence changes issued and planned by the Bush administration in its waning months. They include a recent executive order that guides the reorganization of federal spy agencies and a pending Justice Department overhaul of FBI procedures for gathering intelligence and investigating terrorism cases within U.S. borders.
Taken together, critics in Congress and elsewhere say, the moves are intended to lock in policies for Bush's successor and to enshrine controversial post-Sept. 11 approaches that some say have fed the greatest expansion of executive authority since the Watergate era.
Supporters say the measures simply codify existing counterterrorism practices and policies that are endorsed by lawmakers and independent experts such as the 9/11 Commission. They say the measures preserve civil liberties and are subject to internal oversight.
White House spokesman Tony Fratto said the administration agrees that it needs to do everything possible to prevent unwarranted encroachments on civil liberties, adding that it succeeds the overwhelming majority of the time.
Bush homeland security adviser Kenneth L. Wainstein said, "This is a continuum that started back on 9/11 to reform law enforcement and the intelligence community to focus on the terrorism threat."
Under the Justice Department proposal for state and local police, published for public comment July 31, law enforcement agencies would be allowed to target groups as well as individuals, and to launch a criminal intelligence investigation based on the suspicion that a target is engaged in terrorism or providing material support to terrorists. They also could share results with a constellation of federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies, and others in many cases.
Criminal intelligence data starts with sources as basic as public records and the Internet, but also includes law enforcement databases, confidential and undercover sources, and active surveillance.
Jim McMahon, deputy executive director of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, said the proposed changes "catch up with reality" in that those who investigate crimes such as money laundering, drug trafficking and document fraud are best positioned to detect terrorists. He said the rule maintains the key requirement that police demonstrate a "reasonable suspicion" that a target is involved in a crime before collecting intelligence.
"It moves what the rules were from 1993 to the new world we live in, but it maintains civil liberties," McMahon said.
However, Michael German, policy counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, said the proposed rule may be misunderstood as permitting police to collect intelligence even when no underlying crime is suspected, such as when a person gives money to a charity that independently gives money to a group later designated a terrorist organization.
The rule also would allow criminal intelligence assessments to be shared outside designated channels whenever doing so may avoid danger to life or property -- not only when such danger is "imminent," as is now required, German said.
On the day the police proposal was put forward, the White House announced it had updated Reagan-era operating guidelines for the U.S. intelligence community. The revised Executive Order 12333 established guidelines for overseas spying and called for better sharing of information with local law enforcement. It directed the CIA and other spy agencies to "provide specialized equipment, technical knowledge or assistance of expert personnel" to support state and local authorities.
And last week, Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey said that the Justice Department will release new guidelines within weeks to streamline and unify FBI investigations of criminal law enforcement matters and national security threats. The changes will clarify what tools agents can employ and whose approval they must obtain.
The recent moves continue a steady expansion of the intelligence role of U.S. law enforcement, breaking down a wall erected after congressional hearings in 1976 to rein in such activity.
The push to transform FBI and local police intelligence operations has triggered wider debate over who will be targeted, what will be done with the information collected and who will oversee such activities.
Many security analysts faulted U.S. authorities after the 2001 terrorist attacks, saying the FBI was not combating terrorist plots before they were carried out and needed to proactively use intelligence. In the years since, civil liberties groups and some members of Congress have criticized the administration for unilaterally expanding surveillance and moving too fast to share sensitive information without safeguards.
Critics say preemptive law enforcement in the absence of a crime can violate the Constitution and due process. They cite the administration's long-running warrantless-surveillance program, which was set up outside the courts, and the FBI's acknowledgment that it abused its intelligence-gathering privileges in hundreds of cases by using inadequately documented administrative orders to obtain telephone, e-mail, financial and other personal records of U.S. citizens without warrants.
Former Justice Department official Jamie S. Gorelick said the new FBI guidelines on their own do not raise alarms. But she cited the recent disclosure that undercover Maryland State Police agents spied on death penalty opponents and antiwar groups in 2005 and 2006 to emphasize that the policies would require close oversight.
"If properly implemented, this should assure the public that people are not being investigated by agencies who are not trained in how to protect constitutional rights," said the former deputy attorney general. "The FBI will need to be vigilant -- both in its policies and its practices -- to live up to that promise."
German, an FBI agent for 16 years, said easing established limits on intelligence-gathering would lead to abuses against peaceful political dissenters. In addition to the Maryland case, he pointed to reports in the past six years that undercover New York police officers infiltrated protest groups before the 2004 Republican National Convention; that California state agents eavesdropped on peace, animal rights and labor activists; and that Denver police spied on Amnesty International and others before being discovered.
"If police officers no longer see themselves as engaged in protecting their communities from criminals and instead as domestic intelligence agents working on behalf of the CIA, they will be encouraged to collect more information," German said. "It turns police officers into spies on behalf of the federal government."
Civil liberties groups also have warned that forthcoming Justice Department rules for the FBI may permit the use of terrorist profiles that could single out religious or ethnic groups such as Muslims or Arabs for investigation.
Mukasey said the changes will give the next president "some of the tools necessary to keep us safe" and will not alter Justice rules that prohibit investigations based on a person's race, religion or speech. He said the new guidelines will make it easier for the FBI to use informants, conduct physical and photographic surveillance, and share data in intelligence cases, on the grounds that doing so should be no harder than in investigations of ordinary crimes.
Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.), chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, said that updating police intelligence rules is a move "in the right direction. However, the vagueness of the provisions giving broad access to criminal intelligence to undefined agencies . . . is very troubling."
Staff writers Joby Warrick and Ellen Nakashima contributed to this report.
© 2008 The Washington Post



69 Comments so far
Show Allbiomusic...writes:
"And Madcow…let me remind you that every single Democrat in the senate, with the exception of Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, voted FOR THE PATRIOT ACT. The same bunch of Democrats who have told us impeachment is "off the table."
So…you want to tell me that there is a difference between the Dems and Rethugs? That we wouldn't have a fascist police state if Al Bore had any balls back in 2000? I'm laughing…..laughing to keep from crying."
But he forgets that the Patriot Act was written by neocon fascists, and shoved down the throats of a congress that was cowed into submission by 9/11 and anthrax. Senators Daschele and
Leahy were the only two senators who got anthrax sent to them...
And Al Gore fought for the stolen election all the way to the Supreme Court.
This biomusic guy sounds like a neocon stooge...
To be or not to be simple.
#1. What are the justifications for expandng spying rules on Americans? Can one infer that the number and or character of Pollards are increasing and can only be brought to justice with additional laws?
#2. Since the US Supreme Court is limited to addresssing issues brought before it. What recourse do the citizens of the USA have in challenging such laws under the preamble of a "government of the people by the people...?
#3. Are the proposed easing of rules and/or additional rules based on past experiences say by agencies such as the KGB,[USSR] the Mossad,[Israel] the Savak[iran] or what the British are now using fronw planes to spy on their own?
O keep us safe O great leader. Its OK to grind us into the dirt while you are keeping us safe.
Well the big difference in what is now and openly turning all police into CIA deputy spies is that all of their actions will be secret for "NATIONAL SECURITY", so anyone who is abused or unjustly accused will have no legal right to the facts for a defense.
A police state officially!
Thanks Bushy.....
"If police officers no longer see themselves as engaged in protecting their communities from criminals and instead as domestic intelligence agents working on behalf of the CIA, they will be encouraged to collect more information,"
Welcome to the federal police state, complements of the Bush/Mukasey "reinventing goverment" program.
State and local police officers should be required to study and pass exams on the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights!
How far is it from 'enshrining the Bush Legacy' to 'installing the Bush Dynasty' and ensuring a neo-con backed 'president for life'?
With this precedent, as others have noted above, the Fascist Police State has arrived in the US. And it will not be driven out without much suffering, loss and bloodshed.
To paraphrase Ben Franklin: 'Those who surrender their liberty for security deserve neither.'
Welcome to that prediction coming true.
Spy...isn't that a term that sound very negative? In my book any spy that is unveiled would face death penalty. Why we should be more leniant when it comes to domestic spying. If I would know someone is a spy working for the CIA I would probably do a lot to unveil them and send them to Saudi arabia where he can be torture. Just like bush did with the rendition program that are illegal according to the Geneva convention. Send bush to la haygue.
This is about protecting war criminals from whistle blowers.
Didn't the East Germans have this sort of 'state secruity'? A very light article, that glosses over the more troubling aspects of the building of a police state. The civil liberties in the usa seem to be undergoing a bit of a re-write, you have the freedom to speak - only praise for the employer and the gov't. The freedom to worship - as long as it's not Islam. The freedom to vote - on machines owned by one of the two major parties. The freedom to protest - and be utterly ignored.
It is amazing that so many Americans are either unaware of or have ignored the historical fact that the Grand Father of GW Bush was a Nazi "financier" and walked away with millions that financed the Bush family to the point where GW Bush became the "emperor" of the USA--------
If the People of the USA simply move to have the entire Bush Administration brought to trial in the international forum for War Crimes and Crimes against humanity----this alone will be the only example that will keep the future safe from other dangers imposed by another "man who would be king".
Not only is the world watching the USA---but the USA is watching the USA.
If these criminals are allowed to go free, or simply "be impeached" or "censured" (as Prescott Bush was), then this will be all that the rest of the world needs to see to know that the USA is a CRIMINAL NATION-----
There would be little or no deterrent for another President/Cabinet/Administration who aspires to be the Emperor----then the next Emperor may make GW Bush look like a rank amateur and mild in comparison----
Then again that would be exactly what the people of the USA would deserve.
It really is that simple.
One may think that I am holding myself above all of this "humanity"; this is not true.
I personally am not above being a thief----but in order for me to stoop to that level, I would not consider stealing anything less than an entire continent----the Americans stole one---and it looks like they got away with it-----so far anyway.
The US Government has found its newest enemy, and it is you
And what are we going to do about it? I guess we can complain and write posts here; maybe write to our representatives in congress---like that's done any good so far! Are we forced to sit back and let them ream us with their fascist police state? I'm at a loss..
Warrantless wiretaps, rendition, torture, unregulated industrial contamination, anthrax, patriot act, Guantanamo Bay, military tribunals, survailled peace protesters, KBR detention camps, Blackwater, quaint Geneva conventions, CIA abductions, Venezuela coup attempt, Iraq war, cluster bombs in Falusia, Abu-Garub prison, propaganda in the media, Kyoto accords, stolen elections...
Anyone want to claim that this would all have happened in a Gore Administration?
We must purge our Government of these Fascist and the ONLY chance of that is to vote en mass for Obama! No one else stands a chance of beating McCain. Nader or McKinney will not be our next President, and this is too important to "send a message to Democrats" by voting for a third party...
What is needed is a watchdog, commission to start spying on the government. We all know,for the most part, that when they say they are protecting us it is doublespeak; that what they are really protecting is their embarrassment and malfeasance!
What was the line from Walt Kelly's 'Pogo'?
"We have found the enemy, and he is us."
I must have missed something...I thought laws were written by our representatives in Congress. Galen: Walt Kelly also had his characters hollar in a brown paper bag and when the time was right they opened the bag and let the holler out, "Down with the Gumment."
Sure are working hard to get all their ducks in a row, aren't they?
And you think they are going to let Obama win this election? You better get ready for the Total Police State.
They still control the voting machines, and apparently the rule of law as well. The dems are no answer either, they waltzed Mukasey into position without a wimper. WE ARE TOTALLY AND IRREVERSIBLY FUBAR'D.
I'm beginning to get the feeling, between this, the 'sudden' flare-ups in Georgia and the Middle East, the public unveiling of the Microwave Area Denial System, the ramping up of 'anti-terrorist' public surveillance and camera systems, and the announcement of the mass arrest 'detention facilities' that something very big, and very nasty is about to happen to the US.
And this time there will be NO WAY to blame it on 'Islamic Fundamentalists' or 'terrorists'.
No, this time it will be shown, publicly, to be homegrown and controlled from Washington, D.C.
As they said in 'The Princess bride': "Have fun storming the castle, boys!"
"Do you think it will work?'
"It would take a Miracle (tm)!"
"Bye Bye!"
Yes..it is US...and in fact..the Military Commissions Act..."enshrines" the ...Boiler Plate necessary to ensure that ANYONE CAN..and IS..and WILL be easily and.."Legally" termed an "ENEMY COMBATANT"
Within the MCA is the little section that sets this all in place, with the caveat that..an ENEMY COMBATANT is ANYONE that the "president" determines to be a ...get this..."BELIGERENT"..
YUP! A "BELIGERENT" IS AN "ENEMY COMBATANT"
So..are YOU "beligerent"? I SURE AM! and this of course is their METHOD of encompassin ALL Americans and along with the no favored Prosecutorial tactic' that they are currently resorting to in the on-going ...JIHAD against innocent MUSLIMS in America...the concept is.."THE GLOBAL JIHADI MINDSET"
I am not kidding..go and look for yourself..these "terms" are the method for the Persecution of ANYONE that poses a REAL POLITICAL THREAT to this "government"...if you march naked or stand in place..hey..you probably...will not encounter these tactics....your biggest and loudest "Voice' MAY be a victim...but the REAL vicitms..aside from actually INNOCENT Muslims and others..will be the emerging EFFECTIVE political protest leaders..those people will feel the FULL weight of Police turned into SECRET POLICE..Torture..dissapearances..etc..etc...this is the method they are devising..HAVE devised..
THERE IS NO THREAT! Not from "without"..nope!..If the Drug Cartels can get a DC-10 and fly it into essentailly any part of North Amercia they like...well..do you REALLY believe that a SAUDI FINANCED OUTFIT cannot do the same?...THERE IS NO THREAT!
So what's the point? THAT THIS IS AIMED 100% AT "DOMESTIC POLITICAL AND CORPORATE DISSENT" to Quell and CONTAIN and TERRORIZE any..effective organizations...MoveOn...CodePink...Veterans for peace..and on and on and on...not so much as a TELEPHONE POLE has been cut down in this country...what/ you can't make an IED in your home town?..give me a break..this is not about "TERRORISM" as they WERE defining it..and as they have CONVINCED themselves and the uneducated masses that it is defined as...again i say..this is 100% about the ability to persecute and terrorize LEGAL DOMESTIC DISSENT..and is ALREADY the case and is ALREADY..as most of you i am sure KNOW...already happening...hey...we are ALL..on this site..."BELIGERENT".....as HELL I might add...and therefore....the really CHILLING part...guess what...YOU..yeah YOU..if you are OPPOSED to the Bush Doctrine and are at all "Angry' about it...you..YOU are now.....an ENEMY COMBATANT...as defined by the MILITARY COMMISSIONS ACT and others...and more to come..
Recall please..that..REDUNDANCY...built in REDUNDANCIES...are the HALLMARK of Military Operations..."plan A, plan B,..etc.." this is why we see "legislation upon legislation"...in order that they may rely upon MULTIPLE and CONFOUNDING and almost completely contradictory "Methods" of PERSECUTION...to WEAR YOU DOWN...to make it almost IMPOSSIBLE to "fight" these battles..if you have that option at ALL...
this is what is happening folks..and it is being FINANCED BY the American TAXPAYER...every April..since 1913..you and millions of others...out of FEAR...make small loans ..to the Federal Loyalist Army...and THIS is the result..
"The people get the kind of Government they Deserve.."--Adlai Stevenson
"let them march all they want, as ong as they continue to pay their taxes..."--Alexander Haig
What will it take for you to NOT send money to this rogue state? That is now my question to you...WHAT WILL IT TAKE? How many deaths do you want to FINANCE? How much TORTURE do you want to support..after all..these are government EMPLOYEES..on the PAYROLL of the AMERICAN TAXPAYER...working for YOU..yo are COMPLICIT...and every excuse is just that..an EXCUSE...or a RATIONALIZATION...you rationalize in the same exact manner that those taking our freedom in the name of protecting freedom...the same kinds of circular logic..WHATEVER it takes to AVOID FACING the grim reality that it is the AMERICAN TAXPAYER that makes every minute of every illegal activity of the Government...POSSIBLE..Every single MINUTE..The MONEy folks..WAKE UP!
Or...be spied on, harrassed..tortured...terrorized..searched.........KILLED!..yo have ONE piece of REAL political power left...the POWER OF THE PURSE...and it is the MORTAL FATAL FLAW of this "Government" that they have become completely and utterly dependant on huge sums of disposable BILLIONS...and yet...a nation of scared sheep...cannot even take advantage of this ONE weakness to change the path of a NATION...of THEIR NATION...and instead..allow THESE ACTIONS to occur....
The HOUR is LATE my friends..ONE MINUTE TO MIDNIGHT BY SOME ACCOUNTS....withold your support...or accept that it is all in your name...
as above.."THE GOVERNMENT HAS FOUND IT'S NEWEST ENEMY, AND IT IS YOU!"
How true...and how sad that most of you will only talk...mere smoke of opinion..not enough folks...NOT NEARLY ENOUGH!
PAY TO LIVE FREE OR PAY TO LIVE IN FEAR..IT IS THAT SIMPLE..IT REALLY IS!
Such a legacy!
With McCarthy era spys everywhere the American people will not trust anyone.
Dis-trusting the Federal, State and Local governments, the military, FBI, police, firemen and postmen must lead to anarchy. Dis-trusting your doctor, your lawyer, your pastor and your neighbors leads to a failed state.
Such a legacy to leave to our children. Heckovajob!
Let me sum up what JRCrumb is saying:
Die on your feet, or serve on your knees.
This has moved beyond protest marches.
Unfortunately, the VAST majority of the US population (hell, the populations of most 'Western' democracies can be included!) are too cowed and domesticated to even think abut giving up their Dorito's (tm) and 'Murican Idle' to risk fighting for their TRUE freedom. The US populace would rather bitch and moan about high gas prices and argue which corporate whore they would rather see as puppet dictator of the US.
Change, REAL change is unfortunately only going to come after people realize that their family members, friends neighbors are disappearing into the Halliburton/KBR built 'detention facilities'. By then they will have to decide whether they would rather slowly starve as the world's resources run out, or die fighting to regain basic human dignity.
Change will happen.
We just have to act NOW, and take the power of that choice back into our own hands. Dissent is no longer an option. It is a necessity.
I need to re-read the US Constitution. I thought it would take a Constitution Amendment to change it. It's beyond comprehension that these thugs are openly discussing taking away the freedom, rights, and liberties, and there is not a mumber from Congress.
If the USA slides any deeper into sewer, a civil war won't be able to save it. I will bet ya $10 to $1 that if the truth ever be known of who orchestrated "9/11" it would lead straight to the White House. The actions of this admin. have consistantly been against the peoples of the USA, in the guise of making them safe. Have you ever wondered why you didn't need all this protection from terrorists until this admin. "TOOK" office.
If these goons in the USA are so afraid of terrorists, why the hell don't they leave and find a safe country to live in, rather than destroying this one?
This is some scary shit, alright. I think I'd almost feel safer living in a more lukewarm police state in some lower-tech 3rd World backwater than hard-charging fascist Bush Amurka.
I remember when I ran across that picture of those hundreds of plastic coffins the govt. had lying out on land near a little southern town I know. The excuse was bio-chem warfare terrorist attacks. When you read what the govt. did to those women and children in Postville, Iowa that sounds like open air concentration camp style detainment with electronic bracelets. And the pigs wouldn't even provide them with food or water and they weren't allowed to work. The local churches has been keeping them alive. I have no illusions that what they get away with doing to illegal immigrants they won't hesitate to try on the rest of us as soon as they think the sheeple will tolerate it. But what won't they tolerate anymore? The multiple redundancy built into this new system that makes legal costs to fight it astronomic is equally frightening. What a generation of self-terrorized fools the Boomers and Gen X-ers turned out to be.
Now where else did a Fascist state charge/burden a Church/religion with caring and providing for the 'foreigner' underclass?
Was it Mussolini's Italy or Hitler's Germany?
This has all the earmarks of the culpability of the Democratic Party looking the other way again. Bush says jump, and all the spineless wimps ask "how high?"
Man, elect some more Democrats people. What does it take to learn that they are in bed with the same interests as the Republicans?
... and not to forget St. Obama - for his support of the FISA bill (what do you say, Obama and Dem apologists?)
Vote anyone but the two parties.
The Department of Homeland security needs to be dismantled, it's mission rolled back into a comfortable suite of offices in an existing agency, where a bunch of non-threatening stooges can fight amongst themselves for funding. Bush can be ceremoniously paraded in his leg irons at the conclusion of his War Crimes tribunal, then he's free to crawl back to his ranch to live out the rest of his days with a healthy amount of humility.
Make no mistake about it, this current generation of leadership has reached an unprecedented level of malignancy. Bewildering to most Americans. After the 9/11 attacks, our Government, managed to attack us even more severely!
Shame on Maryland, a so-called progressive state that will roll over for Obama during our Fall Follies. Storm troopers tasked with spying on people - wtf is that?
madcow: Are you serious? Obama?
No, things would not have been any different with Gore. There is no proof it would have been. After all, my God, Joe Lieberman was your VP nominee in 2004. I think that says it all when it comes to you "party". And lets not forget your party's continued murder in Iraq.
There is no difference between the democrats or republicans.
Voter Nader and change things.
I don't vote for murderers anymore. I've had enough.
It is, of course, nonsensical to talk about "protecting rights" when the government can take them away simply by saying that someone no longer has them. In that case, we are not talking about rights but about something else, say a gift from Big Brother to complacent and cooperative people.
We don't have rights. We have to get them back.
Let me rephrase that. We do have rights, but the corporate government doesn't recognize them. This makes the government an enemy of the people.
5280 August 16th, 2008 3:10 pm,
No, Lieberman was VP nominee in 2000, not 2004. I don't think we knew much about him back then. He's shown his colors since---true enough.
You just sound like a pawn when you say there's no difference between Dems and Reps. There is, and I grant that it's not as much as I'd like to see, but there is daylight between them. But every neocon fascist thug wants you to believe that there's no difference between the parties, and that your vote doesn't count for anything, so you may as well stay home or put your vote where it certainly wont count for anything.
Have you heard of the Democratic Leadership Council---DLC? This a group of right-winger who are posing as Democrats in order to move the party to the right. Lieberman is one, as are the Clintons. Obama is not one of these turncoats. Why do you think there was such a power-play during the primaries? He's trying to take the party back.
"Vote Nader and change things" ---Do you really believe he has a chance in hell of getting into the Whitehouse? Really! I'm at least living in the real world...
Jcrumb: very courageous post, you must be living overseas...
"...change is only going to come after people realize that their family members, friends, neighbors are disappearing into the Halliburton/KBR built detention facilities." ....Galen/ Aug 16 1:47pm
Galen - I share your hopes that change will come, but not necessarily your belief that it will.
I think by the time your description became a wider reality, the failsafe point for non-violent change would have been crossed.
More than a few credible observers think it already has been crossed -for one, cf: Lewis Lapham's essay/September issue of Harper's.
As many posters have also analogued here before: 'once the frog acclimates to slowly heating water...etc., etc.'
While it seems impossible to me that more Americans won't eventually jump out of the pot before they no longer can, it's also evident that our fascist chefs keenly understand the wakeup dangers of premature overheating. They certainly have shown adequate skills in this regard, so far: the public is now at least half-cooked constitutionally, and still there's no evidence that people are aware of anything much more serious than 'having a bad president.'
It's arguable that by the time, if ever, enough people understand the constitutional hotwater their governance rights are in, normal process of change will have fully evaporated. Any corrective action at that point would seem to preclude non-violence. And once that point is reached, any desirable outcome would, I think, be far from certain.
itizen1 August 16th, 2008 2:52 pm said:
"… and not to forget St. Obama - for his support of the FISA bill (what do you say, Obama and Dem apologists?)
Vote anyone but the two parties."
Reading the "Audacity of Hope" is pretty much guaranteed to stop the Obama bashing, at least from progressives. I paid $8.99 for the soft cover edition. You can get it for less online or simply borrow it. We owe it to ourselves.
madcow:
Of course Nader won't win. But, as 5280 said, "I don't vote for murderers anymore. I've had enough." At least if I vote for Nader or McKinney I know I'm not voting for four more years of pretty much the same thing (did you hear Obama jumping on the "blame-Russia-for-everything" bandwagon the other day? You call that "change"?). Maybe I'll be wasting my vote, but voting for McCain or Obama is a wasted vote as well (just keeps everything the way it is). Since I'm going to waste my vote anyway I may as well use it to express my dissatisfaction with the bicameral one-party system. As long as we just lie down and accept this whole "lesser of two evils" paradigm, punks like Bush, McCain and Obama are going to continue to manipulate us an push us around. Change has to start somewhere, even with a seemingly insignificant gesture. It will NEVER start as long as we continue to vote for Democrats and Republicans. All we accomplish in doing that is enabling them.
a meat beetle,
I wouldn't put Obama in the same camp as Bush or McCain. I see real differences between them.
And don't forget that he's a political animal trying to get elected in a corporate-media environment that will take a progressive and turn him into a joke ala Kucinich and Dean.
Do you really think it would do any more harm to this nation or the world to give him a chance---to see if he's the change some of us believe he might be?
I'll say it again…
We needed Ralph Nader as President in 2000.
We needed Ralph Nader as President in 2004.
We NEED Ralph Nader as President in 2008.
Never before as we do now
http://www.votenader.org/index.html
.
I'll say it again...
We needed Ralph Nader as President in 2000---we got Bush
We needed Ralph Nader as President in 2004---we got Bush.
We Need Ralph Nader as President in 2008---vote for him and we'll get McCain.
Our only hope is Obama!
Tsunami August 16th, 2008 2:06 pm
"If these goons in the USA are so afraid of terrorists, why the hell don't they leave and find a safe country to live in, rather than destroying this one?"
The "goons" are the perpetrators of fear which is the greatest danger to our Republic. These same goons are telling us they are spreading "Democracy" around the world while simultaneously depriving us of the pricipal elements inherent in our so-called Democracy. WTF is that BS?
The dedicated, well-financed and ruthless immoral tyrants are turning this country into a government police state. When the sleepers in this country finally wake up and discover they've been had, it's going to be interesting to see how they respond to this flagrant tyranny.
I will vote Obama.
Assuming Obama wrote 'The Audacity of Hope' by himself, it shows him to be a sensitive and pretty deep thinker, leastways for a US presidential candidate.
That's all the more reason to wonder why he runs a campaign that panders to what he seems to know is wrong with current politics and pop culture, and it's all the more reason to wonder who he really is as a person or would be as a president.
If Obama's means of getting elected depart too much from the noble ends he talks about wanting to achieve, he's worthless to the task at hand as far as I'm concerned. There's simply no time left in America for noble sentiments divorced from noble actions.
How much slack in getting elected should we cut him?
I don't have an easy formula to answer this.
All I know is, he's already used up whatever wiggle room a believable reform politician is entitled to --and probably more. If he keeps it up, he will loose the election for demonstrated lack of belief in his own message.
When you don't believe in your own message, why should anybody else?
Best not write your Congressman to complain. If you do they will have the name and address of a person of special interest who warrants investigation.
Writing your Congressman will most definiteley be a red flag for "Potential terrorist".
PK
If you live in a state that is clearly going for McCain or Obama, vote your conscience. But, if you live in what turns out to be a swing state, failure to vote for Obama is insanity. A McCain victory is a third Bush term. We and the world might not survive that. term.
madcow:
"Do you really think it would do any more harm to this nation or the world to give him a chance...?"
Probably wouldn't do any harm, but it probably wouldn't do all that much good either. He's a product of the Chicago Democratic party machine (not exactly a hotbed of selfless altruism). He's pro-nuke, pro-coal, thinks that the war on terror actually exists and that we can win it, and he has at least one prominent neo-con on his campaign staff (Dennis Ross, PNAC signatory, is his chief Middle East adviser).
"One thing that's different is oceans no longer keep us safe."
--George Bush September 23, 2002
"...we know that the American people cannot be protected by oceans..."
--Barack Obama, July 15, 2008
Well, I guess a change in wording is still a change, right?
How did that old Who song go? "Meet the new boss/Something, something the old boss"?
Jason M, Meat Beetle, et al:
If you have an open mind, reading "The Audacity of Hope" will most likely convince you to support Obama.
I hope you will read it and learn about the candidate firsthand if only for curiosity's sake.
Lost in all of the hysteria and paranoia is the fact that the FBI had enough information to prevent 9/11, and that Bush, Rice and Ashcroft were repeatedly warned and took no action. What was lacking was not intelligence, in the sense of information, but intelligence, in the sense of mental acuity. We do not need to surrender our well thought out, longstanding and cherished civil liberties to keep ourselves safe; we need only competent leadership.
If you are sick and tired of the two party duopoly, there are plenty of third/independent party candidates to choose from:
http://www.politics1.com/p2008.htm
Of course, I'm for RALPH NADER since he's the most stable:
VOTENADER.ORG !!
Alexlawyer,
Back in the summer of 2001, the FBI went out of its way to join the rightwing media in chasing Gary Condit about the Chandra Levy affair. Despite the fact that he did not kill her and that the real killer was exposed, he lucked out anyway probably because he too supported Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy and the Iraq war resolution.
Right on folks, Nader gave us Bush to begin with in 2000 and now he is McCain's hope to keep it up. I was in Florida warning the Greens about Bush but they haven't changed at all, the only thing they can accomplish is giving us the worst possible next president ..McCain.
THE GWB PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY
The George W. Bush Presidential Library is now in the planning stages.
The Library will include:
The Hurricane Katrina Room, which is still under construction.
The Alberto Gonzales Room, where you won't be able to remember anything.
The Texas Air National Guard Room, where you don't even have to show up.
The Walter Reed Hospital Room, where they don't let you in.
The Guantanamo Bay Room, where they don't let you out.
The Weapons of Mass Destruction Room, which no one has been able to find.
The National Debt room which is huge and has no ceiling.
The 'Tax Cut' Room with entry only to the wealthy.
The 'Economy Room' which is in the toilet.
The Iraq War Room. After you complete your first tour, they make you go back for a second, third, fourth, and sometimes fifth, tour.
The Dick Cheney Room, in the famous undisclosed location, complete with shotgun gallery.
The Environmental Conservation Room, still empty.
The Supremes' Gift Shop, where you can buy an election.
The Airport Men's Room, where you can meet some of your favorite Republican Senators.
The 'Decider Room' complete with dart board, magic 8-ball, Ouijaboard, dice, coins, and straws.
The President's book collection, "My Pet Goat" and both Super Hero Comics, hey those books
and daddy got him through Yale.
The museum will have an electron microscope to help you locate the President's accomplishments.
The architect is Karl Rove.
Admission: Republicans - free;
Democrats -$1000 or 3 Euros
ezeflyer:
Reading a book does not equal firsthand knowledge of the candidate. I could only get firsthand knowledge of Obama by sitting down and talking to him in depth, person-to-person. That isn't going to happen. All I have to go by his voting record, his issue stances, and whom he chooses to work on his campaign. In the case of Barack Obama all of these add up to a candidate I cannot vote for.
However, if voting for a guy whose Mid East adviser is a PNAC-signing neo-con fills you with hope, knock yourself out. I hope it works out for you.
PS-At the very second I was about to hit the "Submit" button, I heard a story on the radio about a Christian minister today who asked both McCain and Obama a number of questions about religion and "morality" (whatever in the f**k that means!). The news anchor (ABC Radio News) said that both candidates stated that "marriage should be between a man and a woman". So again I say, if voting for a guy who panders to theist bigots fills you with hope...
Jim G-
Nader did not give us Bush in 2000. Was it his fault that the Gore people ran a crappy campaign and failed to have a 20-30 point lead on Bush by election day? Was it Nader's fault that in Florida more than 300,000 REGISTERED DEMOCRATS voted for Bush, more than three times the total number of votes Nader got in Florida? [For the exact numbers read Jim Hightower's "If the Gods Had Meant Us To Vote They Would Have Given Us Candidates."]
Nader didn't cost Al Gore the election. Al Gore and his staff lost that election all by themselves by running a lousy campaign and not fighting back against the most beatable buffoon the GOP has ever nominated for President.