I boycott WalMart, and spend as little as possible in big box and chain stores. Period. Starve the bastards like they're trying to starve us. I can grow and/or forage for my own food and take care of my old clothes. I refuse to be a corporate clone or a military support drone. Screw them into the woodwork!

Radio---

That's the whole point! You're right there! We can't do it by ourselves. We need the widest possible unity against our main enemy! We have common interests, and the ruling class can't beat us when we're united! Unity is the most important ingredient in any movement of the people. Working people have learned that thru tough struggles.

In the battles we face today, it will take extremely wide unity to beat the main enemy, the GOP. There are many differences, as well as sometimes conflicting interests, in the wide multi-class coalition that is needed to beat the ultra right in the election. When the people's movement can learn to build the widest unity against it's main oppostition, then we can have real massive, revolutionary changes!

Unionguy, can't promise I will picket but I will not cross one, that's for damn sure even though I'm not in a union. I'm a hell of a letter writer though and I participate when I can. Haven't demonstrated much except when King George the worst came to my fare city of Houston. We brought out the welcome wagon for him though. :-)

I'm in the IT field and that is one area where people used to have illusions that they were somehow above unions because, like me, they went to college and have a degree. Nothing is further from the truth! The best definition of a worker that I know is if you don't sign your own paycheck then you're a worker, period!

Nobody knows what you do in the booth, but this type of thing must have a chilling effect on anyone who talks politics to co-workers on lunch break or is considering working on a campaign. Will word get back and affect the job? As we all know, there are ways to recriminate against workers that are hard to prove: bad reviews, bad shifts, too few shifts, non-promotion, constant criticism etc. Right now there is no recourse at all under which to file charges, as far as I know.

Just like there are laws to protect pro-union activity, we need laws to protect political speech and activity for employees. We shouldn't allow any disappointment with Obama cloud our judgement on this issue. Legal protections would be needed even more if there were a real contender from a third party.

Radio---

I could not agree with you more! (At least in terms of what you say about individuals).

I absolutely have not, nor does the labor-led people's have "illusions" about Obama or do we "rely on Obama." As I've stated agains, and again, and again, labor and its allies have built a wide people's movement that is in place to fight for the changes we need (health care, agst the war, for green jobs, pension protection, etc). This movement, again--as I've stated numerous times, is set to fight particularly AFTER the election for these and other people's needs.

Again, I completely agree, FDR was pushed by the labor-led people's movement. It just plain, then or now, is NOT about individuals. It is about creating the conditions that allow the people's mvoement to be able to win!

However, it has next to nothing to do with what Nader or McKinney SAY! It is about what we, and they, DO!

We are facing an extremely powerful, vicious and brutal ruling class. One that is also now desperate about its ability to continue to hold onto power. To dislodge the worst, most right wing sector of that class will take a huge, UNITED, people's movement led by labor and its allies. It will also take, in the conditions we now confront, middle class forces and even sections of the ruling class to be part of this wide alliance. That is the nature of the Obama candidacy. It is not, nor has it ever pretended to be, a "left" movement. A left, or a labor candidacy, at this time, without that huge, wide multi-class alliance, is not in position to be able to have the strength yet to dislodge our worst enemies from power.

However, if we are able to dislodge the ultra-right and elect Obama and a strong Democratic majority, it creates a new balance of forces, much, much more favorable to working folks and the people's movement. It does NOT, nor have we ever tried to say that it would, eliminate the struggle, or guarantee victories. It will create the new conditions that put the people's movement in position to be able to win!

Nader and McKinney, on the other hand, bring NOTHING to the table to help the people win, given their sectarian, divisive approach. I do not care what they SAY, it is the fact that they are unwilling to unite with the people's movement in order to help us in our main task---that of defeating our main enemy, the GOP, that concerns me the most!

Unionguy, even Roosevelt wasn't perfect. He went against labor from time to time as did Truman but there was a base that agitated for change.

Its also ironic that Nader and McKinney, both of whom I really like, acknowledge that we have a winner take all system and are pushing for a system of proportional representation along the lines that Lani Guinier would have established had Bill Clinton had the backbone to support her nomination for Assistant Attorney General in the face of a Republican right-wing smear job.

Nader and McKinney lack the organization today that even Ralph Nader had back in 2000. Let's get some one in office that, at least, will not inflict as much damage on working people that George Bush's 3rd term will.

In the end it's not the man but the movement that effects change and not the other way around.

Radio---

A new political party is needed, one that will be a labor/people's party. However, such a political formation can only emerge from the actual struggles of the people and must be based on the existing mass organizations of the people. The conditions are not present for that party now, and they cannot be artificially created.

You mentioned NY State. In NY there is a real labor based new political formation that has been able to develop a base, while not severing the unity needed with the wider mass movement. It is the Working Families Party. It works on the basis of 'fusion,' which means that WFP candidates run on more than one line. WFP is endorsing Obama and numerous Democrats. However, where there is a corporate Democrat, who is not working on the key issues the people need, WFP will run a strong, labor-based candidate. This has worked well, with many of WFP cnadidates winning, and it forces the Dem Party to the left, without breaking unity with the wider labor movement. However, there needs to be ballot initiatives in most states to allow 'fusion' to be possible in those states.

A mass breakaway will, however, ONLY come when the masses of people see the need to move beyond the old parties, that they are not viewed as meeting the needs of the time, AND the mass organizations of the people are willing to make that break. We are not there at this time. People overwhelmingly are supporting a need to defeat the ultra right, and ONLY the Democratic Party (with all its warts) can possibly be in position to be the vehicle to do that. After the election of an administration on a platform for change is elected, the people's movement is then in position to have more power, as well as freedom of action. If the needed changes aren't forthcoming, the people's movement is, then, in position to move in more independent directions. Furthermore, the labor movment has already built a huge independent movment for change. It isn't just electoral, but is fighting for natl. health care, agst the war, for green jobs and a jobs program, pension and social securtiy protection, etc. This movement will really kick in AFTER the election.

The Nader/McKinney campaigns are isolated, have NO base among the mass people's movment and will actually set back, rather than support, a big breakaway. Their example is only one of being 'spoilers' who will help the GOP block the needed changes. In labor, left circles, we see these as "middle class radicals," who are frustrated and isolated.

Another problem that those, especially on the ultra-left, refuse to deal with is the nature of the electoral system in the US. It is NOT one that allows, at this time, proportional representation. It is a 'winner-take-all' system, which does not allow for the representation of smaller parties. A breakaway under these conditions requires a massive, huge coalition of people's forces, led by org'd labor. Otherwise, it is political suicide.

One of the major problems with these folks is that, while they are isolated from the mass people's movement, and the struggles of the people, they don't understand, and severely underestimate, the massive effort, the strong and wide unity that is needed, to defeat the ultra-right/corporate forces (mainly) centered around the GOP. This is not a little game! The ruling class in our nation is very strong, although being weakened by many pressures, and it is very experienced and extremely ruthless and brutal. The ruling class isn't dislodged by someone's rhetoric! It takes a massive, huge, people's movement, active and tied closely to the labor, and minority people. At this time, that requires using the Democratic Party, while bldg huge movements outside the structure of that (capitalist) political party. This is a period of transition. You cannot, however, jump over historic periods.

If we can, hopefully by a big, landslide majority, elect Obama and a big Democratic majority, it will give the independent labor-led people's movement the conditions it needs to be able, (then, and only then), to go on the offensive! Obama is the first African American candidate of a major political party and he has real ties to the labor/people's movement. If he is to be elected, he must mobilize huge independent people's forces. His administration could be, like FDR or Lincoln, a transformative one! At this time, we can be in position to win natl. health care, end the war, green jobs, etc, etc. The conditions on the ground, the mobilization of the people, the goals of the movement, will then be at a much, much higher level. At that time, the question of a breakaway will be one that could be on the table.

Now, however, the issue is to defeat our main enemy---McCain/Bush/GOP!!

I've read long and hard on this posting and Unionguy and USAn make very compelling arguments. McCain is what he says he is and I appreciate that frankness. Obama has Wal-Mart ties, to be sure, but he has placed a lot of political capitol in working people, union people, who, this time, will not be frightened by the NRA, (He's taking our guns away!) to vote for McCain. There's been too much damage reeked by this administration and the former Republican majority for people to forget so easily. Though I'm not in a union, frankly we need the Free Choice act and we have to fight for it tooth and nail if we're to even begin to turn the country around.

For those of you considering a 3rd party candidate I can't argue with your reasons. It's true that Obama is pretty hard to stomach as one poster mused on this thread. I like McKinney and Nader a lot. I voted for Nader twice in 1996 and 2000 and Leonard Peltier in 2004 because of the craven surrender monkey to Bush's positions that Kerry turned out to be. I hope McKinney and Nader inject more honesty into the campaign.

However the first thing to consider is barring some miracle on the level of having the winning mega-lotto ticket, they will not get elected and it's not because people like me will not vote for them. The reason is simply because they don't have the media exposure and more importantly the large grass-roots organization of hundreds of thousands of passionate volunteers like there were for Nader in 2000.

New York State ran for office but in the end gave us the New Deal. That was Franklin Roosevelt. He was a blue blooded aristocrat from a family of privilege but we got Social Security, the 40 hour work week, unemployment insurance, food safety laws and the list goes on. The difference was not the candidate. The difference was that back then there were people who were sick and tired of being sick and tired. The unions, then as now were weak, but they persevered and in 1936 the Flint sit down strike occurred and the impossible became possible. General Motors was unionized. Even if you didn't work for GM or were in a union every American benefited. That would have never happened under a Hoover administration. He would have sent in the Army, like he did for the Bonus Army marchers, and the Flint sit down strike wouldn't have even merited a footnote.

So there you have it. I don't fault you if you vote for Nader or McKinney. I understand this, but when has anyone in a position of power given anything back to the people were it not for a strong, vibrant and ruckus making, agitating grass roots movement to put the pressure on the politicians. The movement only starts on Election Day. It has to be followed up everyday henceforth. A window of opportunity exists with Obama where as none exists with McCain.

Wal-Mart's sales have been increasing. When people have less money, that's where they shop. Jobs are hard to find. That's why people work there. That's also why people who work there will be intimidated and vote republican.

For all of the comments about "Boycott Wal-Mart" and comments on stategies for avoiding being known as Obama supporter, Wal-Mart will dramatically help McCain.

fakedemocracy August 14th, 2008 5:05 pm

"Fascism at it's finest.

Corporations are not people… remove their rights as such. Go back to the founding father's days when a corporation needed a charter, issued by the local community to operate. When the corporation fails to serve the local community…. yank the charter. Simple."

Same as we simply impeach traitorous presidents, right? ^_~

There's an easy solution to this lesser-evilism vs idealism debate. We need to fix our voting system. Plurality voting is outdated, and it has the curious property of making it relatively likely that elected candidate will be the worst possible candidate (one that would lose in a one-on-one race against any other candidate). If we switch to approval voting, Borda count, Condorcet method, or one of a number of ranking or multi-vote systems, we can completely overcome this artificial constriction of our choice. This is the only real way to break the duopoly the corporate parties hold, short of a complete revamp of our government or an armed revolution.

coyote---

You are, in fact, very, very lucky to be living in your insolated little world of denial! (and, take my word, not anywhere near me)!!

As for "denial," I worked 30 yrs in a steelmill, only to have your buddie Bush replace the head of the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation), and they, then, stole the pensions of Republic steelworkers. I worked on the political campaign, working to get political support for our legal case. Sherrod Brown (D-Oh) authored a "dear collegue" letter to all memebrs of the House, informing them of this injustice. He and Kucinch (D-Oh) worked tirelessly in our behalf. However, after winning in federal court in Youngstown, the PBGC then appealed to the 6th circuit court in southern Ohio, where a three judge panel (all Bush apptes) handed down a ruling that "steelworkers had no expectation of recieving pensions" By best friend fell dead of a heart attack when he learned of the outcome. We had 5 suicides at my local, inclucing Jay Schoeder, whose older brother was killed at Kent St.

Sherrod, since being elected senator, has sponsored legislation that would outlaw this, as well as S 2092 which would change corporate bankruptcy laws to put workers and retirees first, rather than last, when co's have to pay back creditors. Both Obama and the Democratic platform support the Employee Free Choice Act, which would allow workers to organize unions without corporatate intimidation. Obama's plan on social security is to have the rich pay their share, eliminating the 'cap' (social security taxes are stopped at $95,000). This would save social security for all, forever! McCain favors privatization of social security and Medicare. Obama and the Democrats are pushing a number of bills, including HR 676, which would get health care to all Americans. (I and a great number of my friends from the mill also lost our health care, when the GOP/Bush stole our pensions). Obama and the Democratic Platform is for a 16 mo. pullout of all troops from Iraq. McCain favors wider wars and staying in Iraq indifenately!

For us, regular folks, who've worked our entire lives only to be robbed blind by Bush, the GOP and their corporate buddies, this election is about the chance (FINALLY) to get those bastards off our backs, and to (FINALLY) be able to pass progressive legislation to help our people.

For you con=yote and your Nader buddies, it is about some ideology. You clearly could not care less about the real people and the horrible misery we've been put thru by Bush/GOP and their corporate friends. Under the skin, you are actually very similiar to the Bushies. they say that they don't care about reality, that they'll "make their own!" Take a good look at yourselves. Tell me just how much difference between that and saying that there is "no difference" between political parties on the opposite sides of union rights, the war, socaial security, medicare and health care for all, public education and on and on! Further, I cannot believe that you care one atom more about regular working folks than the Bushies! If you did, you wouldn't campaign to try to get folks to vote for candidates who have no chance to do one single thing to change the horrible conditions that Bush/GOP have put on us!

I have come to believe that you may actually be true Republican agents. You do nothing to help the regular, working people! You only help the GOP, the worst enemies of working folks!!

leftk, "What good will come from voting for a 3rd party candidate?"

Usually, the path to a party getting over 50% of the vote, or whatever is needed, looks kinda like this: 3%, 10%, 18%, 27%, 42%, 51%.

Not like this: 3%, 51%.

Forget everything the MBAs have drilled into your head for the last 20 years, there's more to life than the next quarterly report.

Don't shop Walmart. Let it shrink and wither. Then drown what's left of it in the bathtub.

tell ya what, each of you look in the mirror and see the walmart shopper looking back at ya! most of my so called progressive friends, who rail on about the evils of big box stores, shop at walmart! that is the real problem. we are a bunch of hypocrites in this country, greedy little consumers who unwittingly support the corporate and military state through stock market investment (yes, your mutual funds and 401K help bludgeon iraqis) and our shopping choices. if we/you were serious about walmart policies we would never ever step though their front door with our dollars. guess what? they would go away. grass and trees would readily sprout up from cracks in their parking lots...

Wall Street is favoring Obama over McCain 2 to 1, so Wal-Mart has nothing to worry about.

Obama has no intention of helping Wal-Mart employees, Democrats never do, Hillary was on their Board.

Only a fool at this point will see a significant difference between the preacher and John McCain. Oh I forgot, the US *is* a nation of fools.

One can be thoroughly sickened by the corporate Obama, as I am, but still understand that there are good reasons, from a purely short-term strategic standpoint, for voting for him. At any rate, voting, and even campaigning and canvassing for candidates, should be only a small part of being an activist citizen in a democracy.

Of Kivals (9:52) four choices, we should pick BOTH choices 1 and 2.

The purpose of electing Obmama is not because Obama will further the agenda of the US left hemself - he won't. But he will opens a space for organizing, then when he dissapoints, as surely he will, even bigger opportunities will arise for activists.

I get a feeling that many CD readers, comment posters, only became politically conscious during the Bush II period. But if you didn't, you would recall how much more vibrant and growing the economic justice and labor movements were when Clinton was president - and the demoralization and disarray that many actvist projects fell into after several years of Bush - particularly after 2003.

The reasons for this weren't the agenda of the presidents themselves - Clinton abd Bush II were/are 90% alike - both are promoters of neoliberal Capitalism leveraged by US imperialism, enabled by a corporate sycophantic media. The reasons are instead of a dialectic nature (please google "dialectic" if you unfamiliar with the concept).

So, assuming an Obama administration becomes another version of the vile Clinton, it will still present opportunities that a Republican administration won't, for dialectic reasons.

Coyote... OK You and Nader are "Visionaries"... Great!!!

But what are Ya gonna do about taking responsibility for the actions of McCain. (He'll teach them Russians to respect US!) after all you visionary principled 3rd party folks see that your work has been published for all historians to study on Common Dreams... We are history we are the future...Now.

Oh, my. Every so often someone makes the tie between our economy and China to whom we (US gov't therefore us, that is, you and me) owe trillions of dollars...and a huge interest rate that escalates every day.

Go to economyincrisis.com (or some similar rendition of same) and just take a gander at what Americans don't own anymore.

After spending the last 3 or 4 years reading everything I can about who owns what, I now think China is the dog wagging this tail (the USA)in terms of who owns the money. The megacorporations (who are deeply invested in China) are the big sticks who palaver with all other international megacorps...and we are the serfs.

Didn't you love the information that "most American companies" do not pay taxes? Wow, that made me feel really good as I earn my $0.13 to $13.00/hr being a telecommunications agent and have to pay my taxes every year.

Frankly, I think the end has come to the USA in terms of the glory years. Pessimistically, I think no matter if we elect OBAMA or MCCAIN it won't matter, economically speaking. We will join the serfs of the world and work for the megacorps no matter what they are called...Target, Sears, Pennys are but mere tributaries in the cash flow river to the ultrawealthy who own the megacorps.

Remember it is the military/industrial complex that runs this country. (I must say it is getting almost impossible to get information about our weapons manufacturing, etc. Isn't that interesting?)

I enjoy all your posts. I wish my kids would read them...but they are too busy thinking they are going to make enough money to retire. Silly of them, yes?

The only "fiction" I can see demonstrated here is the illusions the marketing wing of the Democratic and Republican Party want people to believe. The sad thing is that those characters are mired in paradigms of the past, refusing to move into more comprehensive solutions because they are willing to accept the status quo version of what the patriarchy tells you is BEST FOR YOU. Fifty years from now they will have finally caught up with the true visionaries like Nader, and McKinney in the political realm. But outside of that domain is an ever growing body of people who are invoking cutting edge transformational outcomes that might actual improve our lives. Because it is not going to happen with the mediocrity of OBama or McCain. And for those like Glover who believe their own mythos, don't worry Jim because sooner or later the economic meltdown will shift your misguided loyalties funded on marketing techniques, obfuscation, and ignorance.

Obama is hard to stomach, but the choices really are:

(1) elect Obama;
(2) work for a revolution;
(3) move to another country; or
(4) spend time preparing for another great depression, but this time in a police state.

Given the history of political parties in the US, the growth of corporate power, the position of the corporate media to influence elections, and the likelihood that a Republican president would promote the use of rigged voting machines and succeed in ending net neutrality (seriously diminishing the ability to inform and organize through the Internet), as well as use sophisticated spying techniques to undermine political opposition, voting third party is not a rational decision in 2008. That is like planning to get rich by playing the lottery.

I see we have some new posters who care about progress.

As you can now plainly see what these 3rd Party promoters want (since the Third Party is a fiction) is McCain and they think us progressive Dems will need them after they help McCain win....

We now know they are effective tools for the right wing .....with their kind of help, workers don't need enemies!

Gee, if Walmart paid their employees a fair wage and gave them fair benefits to begin with, they would not have to worry about unions. They are obvously afraid of a union orgagnizing. In stead of threatening the employees, they shoud use the resources to improve their employees fate.

It's clear that the only "real" world scenario that Union guy lives in, is a from of utter and complete denial. Parroting information intended to imply that Democrats are not corporate owned is hilarious funny. As is the notion that the Democrats are working on behalf of ordinary people who struggle to make a living every day. What this demonstrates is that the Democratic brand has successfully marketed their product, proving that what people see on television, and what they hear on the Air Waves has more influence in shaping what they believe in contrast to what they actually get via legislation which they don't understand, investigate, or enlighten themselves. Essentially they BUY the packaging of the 'brand' even though the product is flawed and contains inimical standards for their lives. They only thing the American people have left is WHAT SOME AUTHORITY FIGURE TELLS THEM IS SO!. Rationalizations rule their lives. Too bad. Empowerment begins by take full and complete responsible for one's own life. By disengaging what the MAN tells you. The choice is yours.

It's called feudalism.
Remember that Wal-Mart was constructed on the hierarchical culture of an essentially pre-democratic South.
The poor white trash of an earlier SOuth has now been updated and exported.
Enjoy!

Democracy American style: the right to tell you what to do. For heaven's sake people...stand up and put an end to all this shit.

Its not just that they are Dumbasses ~Ephraim~, though they might well be.

It is also that they are constantly bombarded -voluntarily- with commercial messages AND don't have much money.

"Spend Less. Live Better"

Isn't that the slogan?

If you want to get even more annoyed with Dumbass America, consider that they have destroyed THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES -by running the local merchants out of business- for the sake of getting slightly cheaper "stuff" at the Wal-Mart outside of town.

Ugh.

Double Ugh.

Why the hell did my great-grandparents come to this idiot place anyway?

Oh, yeah, the Russians were shitting on them.

Hell.

Have Fun,

-matti.

The neologism "sheeple" is often used here. It can't apply more appropriately than to all the blinkered *consumers* who continue shopping at Wal-Mart. I've never been in one and never will.

If only dazed and confused Americans refused to shop at this goddamn monopoly, they'd be bankrupt in a week. But that's like expecting something fantastical, like impeachment. Dumbass America will keep on buying their meaningless crap at Wal-Mart no matter what crimes they commit, how much they enslave their workers or how many egregious lies they tell. "We didn't do anything wrong! We don't tell anyone who to vote for!" It's like Cheney saying the Iraqis will love us for killing them.

My father died in 1972. He has voted Republican ever since.

Oh, if only the vote for King was just held on one day!

In the fall perhaps, after the harvest has come in.

Then I wouldn't have to think about who I support for King EVERY-DAMNED DAY FOR ALMOST A YEAR!

...Waitaminute...the vote for King IS just held on one day, and it IS in the fall after the harvest has come in.

So why in the hell have we been arguing about it every day for almost a year?

My thought is TV and bullshit PR techniques, but perhaps I'm being simplistic.

Here's a question for the oh-so-involved-in-the-"election":

Who's your Congressional Representative?

You know, the person who the actual Constitution of this Republic gives the power -along with 434 others- to be the governing body of the Nation-State?

Better yet, who's running against them this year, when as is the case every two years, ALL 435 SEATS ARE OPEN?

In my case its Doc Hastings and some poor bastard who stands so little chance of appealing to the crazy red-necks in my district that he doesn't even merit mention.

So how 'bout it?

I've been banging my head against a metaphorical wall on this for months now on this site.

Even the Nader/McKinney folks seem to regard the "presidential race" as the only matter of importance -fuck Congress is the unspoken understanding.

When we set out to elect a Tyrant, whether or not they are benign is of little import, they will be a Tyrant.

Even the basic underpinnings of democratic thought appear to be dead here- and this is a "progressive" website!

One can only imagine what things are like on more "right wing" ones.

What if there were all the tools of Representative Democracy at our feet, but we neglected to pick them up and employ them?

The answer is what we see around us.

Have Fun,

-matti.

WALMART GOT IN TO A RUCKUS IN CHINA ABOUT SOME WORKERS WANTING A UNION . WE HAVE HIGH ENERGY , HIGH FOOD , AND HIGH HEALTH CARE COSTS . ALSO HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT , HIGH HOME FORECLOSURE OCCURENCES , AND OVER-ALL HIGH COST OF LIVING . WE ALSO HAVE DECLINING WAGES AND THAT IS THE PART WALMART PREFERS . SO WALMART WANTS US TO VOTE IN THE CANDIDATE THAT WILL CONTINUE WITH ALL OF THE ABOVE .

Why just boycott Walmart? We hate all big corporations that are getting bigger every day, don`t we? Lets all take our computers out and smash them and refuse to buy another one. Then we will have no use for Bill Gates software so we can boycott his company also.

After we get through wrecking all the large corporations, we can just divide up everything and start over. The country will run real smoothly with everyone doing his or her own thing and we will not have those nasty companies to contend with.

Just think, no more McDonalds, Wendy`s, Ford, Harly, Penny`s, John Deere, Union Pacific, American Airlines, Best Buy, Home Depot, Exon, and hundreds more that we can replace with our own small businesses. Life will be good again with everyone sharing and all working for the common good.

In refernence to the article above, I think that an intellegent starting point in any discussion about workers and their right to organize, it is worthwhile knowing what the people actually involved in that struggle believe. I did lay out the positions of literly all organizations working to help workers organize. You have every right to agree or not with org'd labor and the people's movement that the absolutely, #1 necessity now is to defeat our enemies who are now running the govt.

But, PLEASE, when you throw slurs at our nation's unions and propose to split the unity we so badly need to defeat our worst enemies, do NOT start it out by saying that you "Support unions!"

The reason that we all fight ing like hell to defeat the Republicans is because they have stolen our pensions, broken our unions, passed legislation supporting taking jobs oversaeas, and have completel;y stacked every agency in the govt. with anti-labor, corporate stooges. This has casused massive misery to real people, thousands, even millions are suffering. My own pension was stolen, along with 3,000 Republic steelworkers. We are working with many of the most progressive Democrat legislators (Sherrod Brown, Kucinich, Betty Sutton, Durbin, many others) who are sponsoring legislation to gain health care, support for pensions, jobs programs, green jobs, and the right to organize (Employee Free Choice Act). Obama is in full support of EFCA and the progressive legislation.

I would ask this, to anyone thinking of supporting some third or forth party; How does this candidate plan to actually make any changes and actually help the people, who are suffering under right-wing rule, when they won't come close to getting elected, AND their candidacy could help put the Republicans back in power?

I know that nobody living anywhere close to the real world can try to say that there is "no difference" between the parties, Obama/McCain! We have a whole progressive sector of the Democratic party that is pushing legislation for natl. health care, to stop the war, to reform corporate law, green programs, jobs. Obama and the DP is supporting the Employee Free Choice Act. McCain says that unions are "special interests" and need to be suppressed, alopng with all worker rights. He calls Social security a "disgrace" and supports privatizing aocial security and Medicare. Obama has the BEST position on social security ever, that of getting rid of the cap on ss taxes, so the rich and super rich would, finally, pay fo rit. McCain supports new wars and would stay in Iraq "100 years!" Obama is for a phased withdrawal of all troops w/in 16 months.

While the writer, above is correct, that the elctoral arena in our country is rigged so that only candidates the corporate class approves of get elected. However, what doesn't follow is the twisted logic that that reality means that we should, therefore, vote for only "pure" tiny little ideological third parties. Both parties ARE capitalist political parties. That is certainly true! But they are NOT the same! There are differences within that class, and the people's movement needs to take advantage of that.

For our people, who really need real help. We don't have the luxury of calling back to them with empty hands. We need to win real gains. Stop real pain!

yohocoma:

The only thing I'm getting from your post is that we should all vote 3rd party to demonstrate our conscientous objection to the Democratic Party, and then suck up whatever the victorious John McCain throws our way.

Is that what you really want?

I'm not thrilled to the hilt by any of these people, including the 3rd party candidates.

But I don't want a John McCain in the White House.
Period.

Cynthia McKinnon and Ralph Nader are fine people, but neither has the proverbial snowball's chance in this election.

So, where do we go from here?

Do we vote 3rd party and watch for another four years while the victorious PNAC and McCain engage our country in more war and more pro-business legislation? Well, do we?

Or do we take a chance on Obama, hoping that at least the Supreme Court won't be right-winged for another 30 years, and that perhaps unions will have at least a fair shot at organizing in those Wal-Mart hellholes where so many of our people are forced to work for little wages and no benefits? Whaddya think?

Progress comes slowly. We can vote our hearts for the 3rd party candidates or vote to keep the right-wing nutcakes out of office, hoping that the Dems will give us at least four years of "not too bad" governance, while we work the grass-roots to get our progressive candidates ready to win the Congress in 2012.

We've got to think ahead, just as they do. This is why we always lose, because we want everything immediately. We want fairness and justice, and we want it now. It just doesn't work that way. Not with this bunch we are fighting. One day at a time, one step at a time.

I say vote for Obama, and hope for the best. Because that's all we're going to get, for now. In the meantime, keep organizing on the ground.

I am as disgusted with Obama as anyone, but as a union member myself, unionguy does give probably the only indisputable benefit an Obama candidacy would have. In conjunction with a democrat majority in both houses, it would nearly guarantee passage of the Employee free Choice Act, and and it would remove some of the foxes from the NLRB hen house. Then, with more newly unionized workplaces and energized members, we might also be able to move the unions themselves in a more leftward, and for some construction trades, less racist and sexist direction.

But then again, I have reached the point that I wouldn't be surprised if Obama came up with an excuse to veto the EFCA. So, more important than electing Obama is to elect a veto-proof majority in the house, and get plenty of fresh progressive faces in Congress, like kicking out the crooked Tim Murphy and electing Steve O'Donnell here in the Pennsylvania 18th.

Wal-Mart doesn't give two shits if you vote for McCain or Obama. The point of the 'faux' leak is that voters are lured into the box that the choice is between Obama and McCain when in reality it is only the 'non-corporate' candidates (Nader, McKinney, etc.) that pose a threat to the corporation.
Meanwhile the mainstream media plays up the illusion that Obama is some kind of maverick and that Americans might witness monumental changes if the Democrat is elected. But neither McCain or Obama would have been "nominated", if corporate America didn't pre-approve them. They were instead SELECTED because they have both proven worthy of carrying out a corporate agenda.
Having said that, there are competing corporate interests and therefore the two candidates will differ on how to divy up the middle class tax dollars and deliver the goods to their respective sponsors, but at no time will the American public (the bottom 90%)be a factor in the decison process.
This article only reinforces Wal-Marts foothold by ignoring REAL alternatives to our current system of a corporate controlled government. If the author had spoken the truth, which is that neither Obama or McCain have any record of helping the Wal-Mart employees of the world (supporting unions, raising the minimum wage to a LIVING WAGE, introducing universal healthcare, etc.) and instead explained how a vote for either candidate is a vote for the status quo, the public might finally figure it out!

Memo to the actual workers. You have no union. For the sake of your job, remember to lie well and often.

Send $1 to the McCain campaign. In response they will reward you with buttons, an autographed picture of heiress Cindy McCain, etc. Put these up prominently inside your locker or cubicle at work. Now give cash to a trusted friend to give to the Obama campaign.

Post a note by your home telephone. If an "independent" pollster calls, remember to tell them we're all voting for McCain. It could be a spy.

Should read "Obama supporters of 2008", not 2000. Wordpress won't let me edit.

unionguy August 14th, 2008 9:15 pm :

That's the narrative I frequently hear and the favored one of big-party Democrats. But an "absolutely a necessary immediate step" to take progressive steps forward is rejection of the 2-party duopoly, not 4, 8, or 16 more years of playing by the fundamentally bankrupt rules of this system we have.

Scenario: Obama loses in November "because" a significant number of progressives vote for 3rd parties (let's ignore the rhetoric for now of who is really responsible for their own political loss - really the candidate himself and his compromised, triangulated policies), and McCain is elected. Lots of moderate Democrats and progressives who pushed for Obama are very upset. The right has another party for 8 years and the average American's fortunes go further in the toilet, or worse.

What realizations will the Obama supporters of 2008, and the working class in general, and the Democratic political leaders, make as these events unfold? Will they recycle the same dumb anger as at Nader and Nader supporters in 2000, and gear up for another wasted 8 years as they do their same treadmill routine again? Or will they finally cognize that running as a Republican Lite is a losing proposition, given the realities of the world?

Will they blame people of principle who run on policies motivated by reality and integrity, or will they get their shit together and support people and policies that the country truly, desperately need?

The longer that Obama/business-as-usual-Dem supporters fail to make the crucial realization that the latter choice is the only one that will meaningfully help working Americans, the longer they make us all suffer on this asinine political treadmill.

The only drivel on these pages are the sheeple marching lock step with one of the corporate owned parties and their pathetic candidates: McCain and Obama. Every year Democrats and Republicans produce via their elective process mediocrity. While I am for Union organizing, good Unions represent the minority in our contemporary moment. For most parts Union officials are parasites sucking the life blood out of their members while looking the other way on corruption. WHen I was young, I was a member of the good Teamsters - and there is a BAD teamsters too. Nevertheless, the corruption was appalling. The head of my local was living in a mansion and driving a fifty thousand dollar car much like Perlosi now jetting on her corporate jet paid for by the little people she and her democratic handlers step all over. Piss on the Dems. My vote goes to a third party candidate.

Speaking as someone who has actually benn deeply involved in this, and many union org'g struggles, I find the attacks on Obama offensive! I'm very glad to see some actual people on here, taking on this deeply offensive drivel! Some folks on the ultra-left have their own agenda, single-mindedly that of promoting a "third party, regardless of any conditions on the ground.

Let me make one thing extremely, chystal clear! If you support unions, org'd labor, workers and their right to organize, there is only ONE position that those folks, really on the ground, fighting that those fights, want you to take, and that is to defeat the GOP, and elect Obama and a strong Democratic majority. Every single union in our nation and all of the pro-labor org'g groups, as well as all of labor's coalition partners and all the main organization in the minoritiy committees are calling for you to do that. The reason that we have taken that position is because of the issues involved. Obama and the Democratic Platform support the Employee Free Choice Act, which gives workers to right to organize w/out corporate intimidation. Sherrod Brown/Durbin are sponsoring S2092, to redo the corporate bankrupcty system, now stacked against workers. Obama has pledged to place pro-labor appts onto the NLRB, Labor Dept, PBGC, etc. Obama strongly is supporting our right to organize.

Furthermore, the most important task, without which it is absolutely impossible to take any progressive steps forward, is that we MUST DEFEAT BUSH/GOP/MCCAIN!! There is no illusion that the election of Democrats will automatically solve anything. It is, however, an absolutly a necessary immediate step. There are a great number of progressive Democrats that will be in strong positions to take over key committees in congress. By defeating the ultra-right wing, GOP forces it will make it possible for the big, labor-led people's movement to pass laws that will make it possible for WalMart and other unorg'd workers to organize unions!

Is Wal Mart selling the voting machines? Look when you go in the booth or what ever you vote for whom ever you want.

Always hide a voice recorder on your person when attending company meetings.

This doesn't surprise me at all coming from this company. I remember in 02 when I went to work for a new WalMart store in my community. In orientation it was made quite clear to us new employees that no talk of unions whatsoever would be tolerated. They even went so far as to let us know that if we even discussed unions that we would be immediatly fired. WalMart is a very anti union company and will stop at nothing to keep unions out of its stores.

"Cynthia McKinney would make an excellent president. Leftk is right - up to a point. Yes, Obama would be better than McCain."

McKinney - what would she do? Hit the Capitol police officers with her phone again?
McKinney is not a progressive - she is a nutball! I lived in the Atlanta area when she was in office. She and her father are racist turds.

Voting for a third party will do nothing but slightly enable the Repugnicans to steal yet another election. Nader did not even get three percent of the vote in 2000 but he did manage to get enough votes in Florida to allow Bush & Co to steal the election. Bush "won" Florida by less than 600 (yes, fewer than six hundred) votes - only a small percentage of the votes Naderites gave to Nader instead of voting Democratic.

If you think there wouldn't have been a huge difference in what is happening in the world today if Gore had won Florida in 2000, you are brain damaged. Winning Florida enabled Bush & Co to steal the national election.
Had Gore won, would have had no war in Iraq and it is possible that the attack on 9/11 might have been prevented because Gore would have heeded the warnings from the Clinton Administration which Richard Clark did his best to get Bush to take seriously, warnings that an attack by Bin Laden was imminent. (Read Clark's book)!
We also might not be paying $4 a gallon for gas right now had Gore been the president. Part of the reasons for gasoline prices increasing more than three hundred percent are the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the threats of more wars of choice.

Aside from anything else, we must help Obama win because of the fact that if McCain wins, he will appoint right wing ideologues to the Supreme Court as he has promised to do. If that happens, the Bush assault on our Constitution and the rights it guarantees us will continue unabated for years because Supreme Court Justices sit on the bench for life, and that will mean the end of the United States as we have known it.

A vote for Wal-Mart is a vote for your own voluntary servitude whether you are a worker or customer.

This is dumb.

Vote for Nader and they might lose their job, but Obama is a friend of corporate America. His top economic advisor is a former Wal Mart executive.

The real reason that Walmart doesn't want you to vote for Obama is because he is an "elite" who doesn't shop there. Come to think about it, I don't thin John and Cindy shop there either.
Seriously, progressives need to support unions because unions protect workers. As a longtime union member, I know that there is more than a marginal difference between the Dems and the Repugs. I wish the Dems were more anti-war, but bashing Obama and voting for Nader or McKinney will not bring one soldier home or get fair trade practices for anyone. The Republicans are profit driven to the core!

Wal-Mart is quaking in it's boots. Sure. I didn't discover until I left that Wal-Mart had actually taken out a life insurance policy on me. This wouldn't have helped my wife as the money would have went to them.

Wal-Mart Sucks. If you need to go big box go to Target.

My family stopped shopping at Wal Mart a long time ago. Sam Walton would roll over in his grave if he knew what his company has turned into.

here come the employee interrogations - complete with lie detectors and waterboarding

The real issue is whether workers, suppliers and consumers be given the PARTICIPATORY opportunity to invest our diverse gifts into corporations such as Walmart in order to make them work and serve community and the world better. The Latin root of community means 'com' = 'together + 'munus' = 'gift or service'. Participatory businesses around the world such as the Keiretsu of Japan (Toyota and others), the Chaebol of Korea, Associative Economics of Europe and hundreds of participatory companies across Canada and the USA are leading the way by involving all stakeholders in progressive ownership investment plans. These stakeholder owned industries and businesses are outperforming hierarchal and union shops in environmental, economic, community economic development and every other way. Such win-win solutions unite both the right and the left.

Lose their jobs? LOL
Many have already lost their jobs that were outsourced to China, where much of Wal-Mart's merchandise is made, Mexico included. I bought toothpaste and other items at Wal-Mart that said it was made in Mexico.

Leftk - exactly.

Seaweed - lovely sentiment. But you seem to actually believe you can give up the hamburger and really get the 7 course meal. You can't. McKinney has (now listen) NO CHANCE of becoming president. None. Zero. Zip. This is what frustrates me with you Nader and McKinney supporters. If you want to make a protest vote, do so. But quit trying to get us to drink your 3rd party kool-aid and believe that somehow neither McCain or Obama will be president. One of them will.

Costco pays it's employees an average of $17 an hour and even parttimers get some benefits.Cities need to do their best to woo Costco to their communities and whittle away at the behemoth that those lovely Waltons exploit over a million employees with.

Those who don't like Wal-Mart have a simple choice, Boycott their stores and encourage others to do the same thing! I never shop wal-mart as they are unfair to ther workers and they import most of their goods from other countries, cheap stuff, not made in America!

I'm with you Samson-

Cynthia McKinney would make an excellent president. Leftk is right - up to a point. Yes, Obama would be better than McCain. But why settle for a hamburger when offered a choice between hamburger and hot dog when you can have a seven course meal.

can you say more, opeluboy.

I tend to agree that there are some folks on the web-site who live to dump on Obama.

On the one hand this is a progressive website, so it isn't surprising that folks are disappointed with or skeptical of Obama.

At the same time it gets unacceptable when folks are throwing right-wing criticisms out at Obama (e.g. he went to a racist church for 20yrs.)

My problem with the Obama-bashers is that I don't find their indignation very compelling. Obama won't fix what's structurally wrong with America much less capitalism. The two party system stands for the same overall power structure. sure. But won't Obama be a little better for some people?

I could easily vote for a 3rd party were I certain
a. that the candidate and party had a grassroots movement behind it.
b. that I believed that there was a strong popular movement that would sustain us through the four years of another McCain term.

Convince me of these two and I'll jump on the McKinney Nader bandwagon. Or...the SP is running a write in candidate this year.

I don't shop in Wal-Mart. My niece from Utah (a mother of 4) tried to work at Wal-Mart. What a horror story she related to me. She had a daycare in her home for years before the switch to an "outside the home" job. I hadn't been shopping at WM even before her experience. And as for unions, I was in the home for 9 years raising 3 kids before I embarked on a job outside the home--I became a grocery checker in 1978-NON-union. $3.00 an hr. round the clock. (STATE OF WASHiNGTON< AND currently HAS THE HIGHEST minimum wage). When I switched to a Union grocery checking job, with full health benefits, med.,dental,vision, and part-time(28-32 HRS.WEEK), I was up to $11.00 (journeyman)an hour IN 1980. really helped me feed,etc. 3 kids!! THERE EVEN WAS AN AFTER 9PM PROVISION, (MORE $ for us), so consequently, we didn't work much past 9:30pm or 10pm....well, I am just showing you my experience with unions, everyone of us Americans deserve a decent living and it is there and has always been there for us,(but not given to us)wages in alot of jobs have not kept up with the cost of everything, houses -cars, etc. wages are NEVER discussed on the news. what are people supposed to do? I didn't mind paying my Union dues, and I felt secure in my job. I wish for everyone in America-a decent living, good wages, and job security.
but -I am just a gramma now--but I want all people & all young people to know, what it was like in my day-30 years ago when I was a Union grocery checker. Thank you for allowing me to tell my history and good luck and blessings to all Americans!

"Just Say No" ... to Wal-Marts.

There's a PBS Frontline documentary entitled, "Is Wal-Mart's Ruining America?
... The title says it all.

As many people posting here know, there are committees formed in town and cities with the sole purpose of KEEPING WALMART's OUT OF THEIR TOWN!

So spread the word, having read this article
-- and I'm sure many other articles on Walmart's -- tell your friends (all of whom of course shop) to hit these bastards where it hurts. BOYCOTT WAL-MART'S! That's the only language they know.

Go to your local Walmart's. Ask to speak with the manager (I did), and tell them how you feel. Ask them for their boss' telephone number and cellphone them right there on the spot!

This is truly remarkable. Common Dreams presents an article with Obama's name in it and I have to read through 17 responses before the usual useful idiots start shitting on him.

Like I said, remarkable.

Right on, fakedemocracy, the people have ample grounds to revoke Mal-Wart's charter.

Samson writes,

This is all just a part of the charade. They want to make it seem like there's a difference, even when both major candidates support the same policies that benefit Wal-mart.

Well, yes and no.
No, because I don't think Mal-Wart would do this if they didn't believe that Obama will be tougher on labor standards. I think Obama is marginally better for your average American (cf. Obama's position on taxes -- far less regressive than McCain's). Obama does support the right of American's to unionize. Don't get me wrong-- he isn't the best-- he won't repeal Taft-Hartley as Nader rightly calls for, but he does back the Employee choice act, which calls walmart to task for its illegal, paranoiac, fascistic anti-union stance.

Yes. Because I believe that the dems are only marginally better than the repugs and ultimately stand for the same elite, corporate interests. And yes, because Obama's advisers do represent corporations such as Mal-Wart-- why because like Obama they are capitalists and that's what capitalists do. Right?
---------------------------------------------------------
But margins are important and I think this issue highlights a place where marginal makes a difference. Of course, I'd like to vote for someone who wants to repeal Mal-wart's charter..but is that a practical decision this year?

Someone at WalMart must have a personal agenda with Obama. Or, as Samson stated above, the whole thing is a total charade, probably to give Americans the impression that there is a real choice.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080630/klein links to a story about Obama's economic advisers.

"Wal-Mart wouldn't have made such presentation to their managers unless they knew in advance that they would get away with doing so.

Like every other demand that the Bush administration do its job and uphold the law, this complaint will be ignored."

Again, the really funny part is that this is true if Obama wins too. Not a snowball's chance in hades that an Obama administration would try to push any charges against Wal-mart if elected.

Now, if Ms. McKinney got elected, that might be another story. :)

"First of all, how in the hell are they going to know who people are voting for?"

Well, the Obama sticker on the car they drive to work might be a clue.

The really funny part of all of this is that Obama's economic adviser is a friend of Wal-mart who tries to tell people that Wal-mart is good for poor Americans.

This is all just a part of the charade. They want to make it seem like there's a difference, even when both major candidates support the same policies that benefit Wal-mart.

You'll see a lot of this over the next few months. Completely bogus issues from both sides that get lots of noise and that are total nonsense.

Shop at Wal-Mart and make the Walton family richer.

A recent article spoke of how the rebate checks helped boost Wal-Mart's recent sales.

Let's see, China buys T-bills effectively "loaning" the American government money, backed by the promise that the American people will pay it back.

The American government sends out tax rebate checks and encourages people to spend.

The American people go to Wal-Mart and buy goods made in China.

So the money which was loaned to the American government by the Chinese government goes to Chinese manufacturers and all Americans are left with is the debt, fewer jobs and a bunch of junk that will break right away facilitating the need to buy more junk. And the Walton family and the "shareholders" get richer.

Brilliant!

Fascism at it's finest.

Corporations are not people... remove their rights as such. Go back to the founding father's days when a corporation needed a charter, issued by the local community to operate. When the corporation fails to serve the local community.... yank the charter. Simple.

When I first heard of this my first thought was, "this is illegal"; my second thought was, "will anything be done about it".

I am from Arkansas, and although I no longer live there, I still have strong ties to the state through Family, Friends and history; so I have a very good understanding of so-called "right to work" states. The only purpose of "right to work" laws is to keep employee costs, rights and power to an absolute minimum. These laws are sold to the citizenry by invoking fear and misunderstanding ("if unionized, you will at best, lose your individual independence and you will have to turn over a portion of your hard earned pay to the unions which will spend it however they see fit; at worst, your employer will move away and you will be left jobless).

jesusofjonesboro, I have been assuming by your "handle" and postings that you are an Arkansawyer (no self respecting person from Arkansas would call themselves and Arkansan). Your comments on this thread give me more reason to think so.
But then again, I could be wrong (I was once).

A real intelligence test for worker voters. Told to vote for the republican God father party so the company can exploit workers better, pay less, and make more profits, as a worker, who would you vote for?

BTW, it's easy to boycott Wal-Mart. Just think of the money they will loose from those government issued DTV cards so people can keep their TVs going after February 17th, 2009. I checked Consumer Reports and the best DTV tuner for the money is a Zenith model which is not sold at Wal-Mart but has the best features for the given picture quality. Their only sold at Circuit City and Radio Shack. I would think that would be an immediate and effective response to Wal-Mart and you can phone their public relations department and fax your receipt to them if you like. The almighty dollar is the only vernacular that Wal-Mart understands.

And now a personal disclaimer: I neither sell, own stock in nor profit in anyway from Zenith, Circuit City or Radio Shack. There, hope that clears that up.

I worked as an election judge over 2 election cycles. If you changed the venue, to say the inside of the polling precinct, that would be considered classic voter intimidation. Even outside of this venue its still voter initimidation. They just don't use lynching techniques anymore. Paging the ACLU?

Since walmart can't move their stores to china a strong unionized walmart could bring back the middle class.

Walmart is such a greasy, smarmy, slimy thing.

Yecch.

"the complaint will be ignored like the rest of the crimes of the regime."

no it won't. some people have heard loud and clear and refuse to spend money at walmart. mary contradicts herself when she says, "I haven't shopped at that rag of a store since I learned of their ways; this just adds to the list!" and in the same breath says, "the complaint will be ignored".

how is boycotting a store ignoring it??

Constitutional Amendment (with thanks to Jim HIghtower):

A corporation is not a person. Constitutional protections will be limited for all corporations, for-profit or not for profit, as follows:

Freedom of Speech will be limited to truthful commercial speech.

No corporation will receive transfer payments of any kind from the federal gov't. corollary: No corporation will ever be considered "too big to fail"

that's it. (qualifiers may not be from JHt)

MaryMag, Wal-mart, like all employers, maintains demographic data on all of their employees (excuse me, "associates"). They can compare precinct-by-precinct vote counts with that employee information and get some idea of how their employees may be voting. No, they can't demonstrate that a specific employee voted against their wishes but Wal-mart operates on a philosophy of mass intimidation.

jj

First of all, how in the hell are they going to know who people are voting for? Jesus, do they follow them into the booth, too?

I haven't shopped at that rag of a store since I learned of their ways; this just adds to the list! I agree with jj, the complaint will be ignored like the rest of the crimes of the regime.

"Wal-Mart opposes proposed legislation"

You allow corporations a voice in public policy and you open a can of worms. You disallow corporations a voice in public policy and you seal the can shut. It's YOUR choice. And if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.

Shop Wal-Mart and you could lose your outsourced job.

from the article:

"Wal-Mart spokesman David Tovar said that if the FEC decides to investigate, it will find the company did nothing wrong."

now there's a safe bet.

"this complaint will be ignored"

no it won't! there are many like me who refuse to shop at walmart because of things like this. now i will DOUBLE not shop there!!! how's that for ignorance???

Wal-Mart wouldn't have made such presentation to their managers unless they knew in advance that they would get away with doing so.

Like every other demand that the Bush administration do its job and uphold the law, this complaint will be ignored.

jj

an earnest question for Nader/McKinney folk:

Without bashing Obama or the Dems. What good will come from voting for a 3rd party candidate?