Don't Cage Dissent
The bulwark against tyranny is dissent. Open opposition, the right to challenge those in power, is a mainstay of any healthy democracy. The Democratic and Republican conventions will test the commitment of the two dominant U.S. political parties to the cherished tradition of dissent. Things are not looking good.
Denver's CBS4 News just reported that the city is planning on jailing arrested Democratic convention protesters at a warehouse with barbed-wire-topped cages and signs warning of the threat of stun gun use. Meanwhile, a federal judge has ruled that a designated protest area is legal, despite claims that protesters will be too far from the Democratic delegates to be heard.
The full spectrum of police and military will also be on hand at the Democratic convention in Denver, many of these units coordinated by a "fusion center." These centers are springing up around the country as an outgrowth of the post-9/11 national-security system. Erin Rosa of the online Colorado Independent recently published a report on the Denver fusion center, which will be sharing information with the U.S. Secret Service, the FBI and the U.S. Northern Command. The center is set up to gather and distribute "intelligence" about "suspicious activities," which, Rosa points out, "can include taking pictures or taking notes. The definition is very broad."
Civil rights advocates fear the fusion center could enable unwarranted spying on protesters exercising their First Amendment rights at the convention. Documents obtained by I-Witness Video, a group that documents police abuses and demonstrations, revealed that the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency were receiving intelligence about the protests at the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City. The growing problem is that legal, peaceful protesters are ending up on federal databases and watch lists with scant legal oversight.
Former FBI agent Mike German is now a national-security-policy counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. He said, "It's unclear who is actually in charge and whose rules apply to the information that's being collected and shared and distributed through these fusion centers." Maryland State Police were recently exposed infiltrating groups like the Baltimore Coalition Against the Death Penalty. German explains how police expand "beyond normal law-enforcement functions, and start becoming intelligence collectors against protest groups. The reports that we obtained ... make clear that there was no indication of any sort of criminal activity. And yet, that investigation went on for 14 months, and these reports were uploaded into a federal database. ... When all these agencies are authorized to go out and start collecting this information and putting it in areas where it's accessible by the intelligence community, it's a very dangerous proposition for our democracy."
After Barack Obama became the presumptive Democratic nominee, the protest coalition in Denver splintered, as many were motivated originally by the anticipated nomination of the more hawkish Hillary Clinton. An anarchist group, Unconventional Denver, actually offered to call off its protests if Denver would redirect the $50-million federal grant it is receiving for security to "reinvest their police budget toward real community security: new elementary schools; health care for the uninsured; providing clean, renewable energy." The plea has not been answered. The city, meanwhile, is stocking up on "less-lethal" pepper-ball rifles and has set aside a space for permitted protesting that some are referring to as the "Freedom Cage."
In the Twin Cities on the evening Obama was giving his Democratic acceptance speech in June, the St. Paul Police Department arrested a 50-year-old man peacefully handing out leaflets promoting a Sept. 1 march on the Republican National Convention. After mass arrests at the RNC in Philadelphia in 2000 and roughly 1,800 arrests in New York City in 2004, ACLU Minnesota predicts hundreds will be arrested in St. Paul, and is organizing and training 75 lawyers to defend them.
For now, the eyes of the world are on the Beijing Olympics. Sportswriter Dave Zirin is reporting on the suppression of protests that are occurring there. He has an interesting perspective, as he is a member of the anti-death-penalty group infiltrated in Maryland. He told me, "Our taxpayer dollars went to pay people to infiltrate and take notes on our meetings, and it's absolutely enraging ... a lot of this Homeland Security funding is an absolute sham ... it's being used to actually crush dissent, not to keep us safer in any real way." The lack of freedom of speech in China is getting a little attention in the news. But what about the crackdown on dissent here at home? Dissent is essential to the functioning of a democratic society. There is no more important time than now.
Amy Goodman is the host of "Democracy Now!," a daily international TV/radio news hour airing on more than 700 stations in North America.
© 2008 Amy Goodman
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168 Comments so far
Show All"I like to think of Common Dreams as a progressive site, a refuge "
A mindless AgreementFest where ideas go unchallenged and everyone is happy because of it?
" If we don't accept Jakenewton or Snow Wolf's opinions then we are being intolerant. "
You don't have to accept my opinion but you can debate any of the points I made. I note that you haven't and instead simply ranted about the presense of dissenting views. Smells ironic in here.
I like to think of Common Dreams as a progressive site, a refuge from the lamestream and lunatic death cult right wing media. If we don't accept Jakenewton or Snow Wolf's opinions then we are being intolerant. I didn't come here for some mushy stuff like engaging with those clowns. Motherfuck them and their hero McWarcriminal.
"It is *not* up to us to decide what may be in the heart of the dissenter."
Why not? We make judgements about things all the time. Like you do here:
"That is a crazy idea."
Judging what may be in the hearts of others is part of what makes us human, we do it all the time.
"Also, recreational violence is not dissent by the definition of dissent. "
I agree. I guess I should have said so before.
It is *not* up to us to decide what may be in the heart of the dissenter. That is a crazy idea. Where do you get that from? That has to be the most authoritarian statement I've heard in a while and I really am curious how you justify it.
Also, recreational violence is not dissent by the definition of dissent. That was my point--see the definitions I posted.
"All dissent is necessary dissent from the perspective of the person engaging in it. "
It's a good point. However, it is up to each of us to decide what may be in the heart of the "dissenter", if that term in fact describes who thay are.
"Recreational violence is not dissent. "
I know of no sure tests. I suspect those who may break windows in Denver might just want to break windows, and wrongly think they are somehow being patriotic, because the bumper sticker tells them so. That's just my opinion.
"Yup, and you might make a very good case in general that the taking of risks involved with dissent that breaks standing law may be more patriotic than expressions that don't."
Well, I am not a patriot, so I wouldn't make this case. I am not even an American, I just pay taxes here. Patriotism is about as high a virtue as having pride in your life insurance co-op. Actually, it's less of one: at least you chose which life insurance co-op to join.
But yeah, maybe you could make a case that dissent which carries risks is more credible. It really has nothing to do one way or the other with how justified it is, only with how credible it appears to others.
"But this is quite seperate from whether the dissent is honest, thoughtful, reasoned, etc. In fact your example of the Boston Tea Party may come up short, there is considerable disagreemant about it."
All dissent is necessary dissent from the perspective of the person engaging in it. Dissent is principled by definition. Recreational violence is not dissent. Violence in self interest at the expense of those weaker than you is not dissent. This is all so obvious that I really feel you are trolling when you attempt to create a discussion about it. Read the dictionary definition ffs:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dissent
1. to differ in sentiment or opinion
2. to disagree with the methods, goals, etc.
3. to disagree with or reject the doctrines or authority
4. difference of sentiment or opinion
6. disagreement with the philosophy, methods, goals, etc.
"jakenewton, your last post was very insightful, thank you. Excellent points."
Thank you for saying. But someone may say you are encouraging me.
Actually its all pretty funny
The Left wing thinks the Government is plotting to strip them of their Civil Rights and the Right wing thinks the Goverment is plotting to strip them of their guns
its like a huge Paranoia-fest
Just curious...
Have you ever spoken or read anything about people who have actually lived under Communism?...it blows
in "Nineteeen eighty four" and "Animal Farm" Orwell wasn't bashing Right wing Government...its about the Left
and the American Communist Party says...well...we wouldn't do it like the Soviets...you CAN'T HELP IT...the whole system is flawed
Even the Unions here don't even want to allow secret ballot...I can't imagine that...Communism/Socialism blows...England is flushing itself down the loo and Canada is skipping merrily behind it...wake up...grow up...Utopia is just a fantasy
jakenewton, your last post was very insightful, thank you. Excellent points.
SnowWolf-still wondering why you haven't moved to China yet. Since you apparently despise the concept of free democratic societies, and believe in the neo-con right-wing Imperial Monarchist ideal of government rule, I would think China would suit you better. Although, given our current President's predeliction for ruling like a dictator, perhaps that explains your staying.
That, and the fact that your love of the Corporatist-Fascist state we are becoming (I think you call it "free market capitalism") probably also appeals to you. Don't worry, Snowwolf - unions are almost dead. Give it a few more years and there won't be any more, and the Corporations that rule this country will be able to sit back and say "our work is done."
miftin
actually I have read Das Kapital...because in the end ...there will be only one Company
when you tell me how we can get "Mom and Pop" Auto and Electronics Manufacturers I'll join your anto-Corporate movement...and don't tell me "State Run"...I want Cars that work
Some local was railing recently against Michael Moore. I then asked if he'd ever seen any of Moore's movies. He said "No, I don't have to watch any of his movies...."
Kind of reminds me of Snowwolf here, who has probably never read Das Capital.
"Kind of like the Boston Tea Party."
Yup, and you might make a very good case in general that the taking of risks involved with dissent that breaks standing law may be more patriotic than expressions that don't. But this is quite seperate from whether the dissent is honest, thoughtful, reasoned, etc. In fact your example of the Boston Tea Party may come up short, there is considerable disagreemant about it.
metal said: "There is no such thing as a 'free market' without some significant level of government influence or 'interference' as you characterize it and there never has been since the beginning of written history."
Right, and there never will be, because libertarianism is not a strategy that the ruling class buys into. Big CEOs, unlike libertarians, are aware that the free market is not magical but is merely a tool to faster wealth accumulation during times of peace. During crises, of course they want a government to bail them out. Libertarianism is more of a pipe dream than socialism. At least socialism often has the support of the working class, while the bipartisan/big-gov't imperialism that we currently have in the U.S. has the support of the ruling elites. Libertarianism has no hope for either mass support or support by the most powerful. It will never happen.
Demonstorm said: "Breaking windows is not dissent, jakenewton. That is called destruction of private property, a crime."
Kind of like the Boston Tea Party.
One more thing...Watch Hillary at the convention...her goal is to wound him and make him unelectable so she can run again in 2012
Moderates will say...hmmm...McCains' a Moderate...I may as well vote him in...he'll only be in one term...mark my words
Dude...
do you HAVE to write a thesis for every point you make?...sometimes...less is more
Let me try this one on you...when Business is allowed to expand (without excess Governemnt interence) revenue grows...people have more money...charitable donations go up and can help the poor and sick...its not Governments role to do those things...its the private sector...and the private sector does it better
I know lots of you here are Socialists and or ...(Yuck) Marxists...but it really does work better with less Governemnt control...even the Anarchists among you understand that...when things are going well and the Dems are in Charge you Call it Prosperity when the Repubs are in charge you call it Greed...but essentually its the exact same set of conditions...its just the Class Warfare angle I don't understand...
and looking at poll numbers recently I am pretty sure that drooling fool is going to beat Obama...even Kerry was 15 points ahead this time in the last election cycle
Thanks, metal.
How about getting into the convention site and heckling the speaker? Dissent or disorderly conduct? They'll certainly be hauled away by security like happened last time.
"Breaking windows is not dissent"
Not in and of itself no, but dissenters sometimes do this kind of thing, and I think some of them may claim that it's a legitimate expression of their dissent. Remember Seattle? I would say "to the cage" with them, wouldn't you agree?
"Dissent is speaking, writing, or demonstrating peacefully "
Agreed, but some of that falls far short of patriotism or a bulwark against tyranny. And yes, it would be a matter of our personal opinion in judging that, but it should certainly be protected.
Breaking windows is not dissent, jakenewton. That is called destruction of private property, a crime. Dissent is speaking, writing, or demonstrating peacefully (this is protected by the Constitution, in case you didn't realize that). Please stop, jake, before you embarass yourself further about your ignorance of democracy. Although perhaps that explains a lot about the Rethuglican mindset - they all equate speaking truth to power as "treason" and "unAmerican," i.e. a crime - like breaking someone's windows.
I call shitting on the Constitution a crime. Oops - actually, it IS a crime. How silly of me to forget that, under the current law-abiding administration.
"jakenewton, you're missing the point. Dissent - the speaking out against the policies of those in power, for WHATEVER reason - is our right as free citizens in a supposed democracy. "
I addressed this, and agreed with it, you must have missed it.
"You wish to qualify what is considered "appropriate" dissent and "inappropriate" dissent. "
You obviously missed it, I was distinguishing between dissent that could be considered patriotic and dissent that falls short of that. And I disagree that we can't distinguished between what is appropriate and inappropriate, although that is an entirely different matter that I haven't addressed.
"Once you start qualifying the types of dissent that are permissable, and those that aren't, "
There are laws, of course, that do some of this qualifying for us. Dissent that involves breaking windows for example is not permissable, because breaking windows that don't belong to you and without the permission of their owners is against the law.
To SnowWolf:
I have taken you apart on an intellectual, factual and historical level and you know it. There is no such thing as a "free market" without some significant level of government influence or "interference" as you characterize it and there never has been since the beginning of written history. Government is politics and political leaders play economic favorites. It's a matter of degree and has never been absolute. Either show me a single solitary example of a "free market" under any government at any time in known human history or shut up about your fictitious "free markets" and quit wasting our time.
As a Rightie Libertarian, what are your ideas for meeting the pressing needs of the poor, sick and uninsured, and elderly in lieu of government programs that interfere with the so-called "free market?" Magic? The Messiah? Churches and Synagogues? "A Thousand Points of Light" surrounded by spreading darkness? Just let 'em all die in the streets so you can enjoy more tax cuts during war-time?
In the Libertarians-who-vote-Republican world the US would be the only developed nation without a public school system. How would THAT make the vast majority of our nation's children more competitive against better prepared children from nations with functional public schools? What's your solution? Vouchers?
As for referring to Obama as a "piss poor joke" compared to McCain, well, in his speeches Grampa McCain can't even keep Sunni Al Quaeda straight from their arch-enemies, Shiite Iranians. He developed similar Altzheimer's disease regarding Bush's scorn for international law, the UN and UN Security Council two days ago when he was lecturing the public on how "We in the 21st century don't invade other countries." Except for Iraq, Somalia, and aiding and abetting that disproportionate air war followed by failed blitzkrieg into Lebanon in '06. A McCain White House would lack international credibility for the same reason Bush does. McCain has made a point of wrapping himself in the Bush foreign policy legacy and no one would believe a word out of his mouth.
You Rightie Republican voting Libertarians love tough talking militarists, but the U.S. military force structure has been so overextended and worn out--and the economy with it--that two former Secretaries of State (Republican and DLC Dim) have both admitted that if Putin were to re-conquer Georgia there is not a damn thing we could militarily do about it. Nor are we any longer in a position to fight an EFFECTIVE war against Iran--which we might actually need to--because Bush has so wasted the military on his war of choice in Iraq.
Be careful what you wish for. If McCain wins, you're going to see a man down on his knees with no effective military human forces to put boots on the ground in any new major conflict that arises; no money to fund anything--because he insists on more tax cuts for the rich ON TOP of Bush's tax cuts which he claims he wants to make permanent--and no plan or even real intentions for getting us out of Iraq. He's boxed himself into a corner with his campaign promise on tax cuts and he sure as hell will pay the price if he pulls a "Read My Lips" Bush Sr. style on that one.
International lenders are already looking at the U.S. as a riskier investment by the week. Who is McCain going to borrow all that money from to walk the walk and not just talk the tough talk? You think this amount of borrowing can go on forever when so many bad U.S. risks have been spread around the world by the housing and credit meltdowns? Where's the economic growth and revenue going to come from? Obama has his plan to generate new jobs by transitioning the U.S. to a more environmentally sustainable economy. McCain has his navel to gaze at. If elected he'll probably rip-off the Obama plan.
McCain is an archaic drooling fool compared to Obama by any measure and has no idea what the true priorities of this country are in the 21s century. His policy statements make absolutely no sense on their face and the few decent ones he used to have (originally opposing coastal drilling, originally opposing Bush's tax cuts, etc.) he's already flip-flopped on.
If you're going to bash Obama like that in comparison to a teetering, memory impaired has-been like McCain, at least describe the particulars about Obama you feel make him inferior as a candidate to McCain. I think it's youth, new national racial demographics, new energy and new ideas you are unsettled by. I think you just don't like change. I think you would rather regress than progress into new directions that might compel you to think about and view the world in new ways--regardless of whether they have positive outcomes or not.
It must be tough, SnowWolf, to continually feel you must spout unsupported obsolete slogans and nonsense about some fairyland "free market" paradise that never existed; the wholly evil Palestinians and the wholly perfect Israelis, and 'Amurka, right or wrong' false-patriots like Duhhhbya and John McCain. Just don't expect the rest of us to make the leap of blind faith into your faith-based fairytale land with you.
What we're missing here, IMO, is that this isn't only
about free speech --- it's about the right to free
assembly, as well ---
Wasn't that what set off our first revolution?
Further, when police come dressed as military, I think
it's clear who is prepared to be violent and who is not.
And, to even further assure that not one bit of human
emotion enteres the mind of the police officer, one of
the methods used against NYC protesters was simply to
NET them all in -- families with babies/carriages ---
disabled people in wheel chairs -- all netted together.
Capitalism is fascism in its freewheeling, unregulated form.
The greatest threat to fascism and corruption of government
is free speech and its citizens.
jakenewton, you're missing the point. Dissent - the speaking out against the policies of those in power, for WHATEVER reason - is our right as free citizens in a supposed democracy. You wish to qualify what is considered "appropriate" dissent and "inappropriate" dissent. There is no such distinction. Dissent for any reason - whatever a citizen feels about a particular leader or policy of his/her government - is a valid dissent in America. Once you start qualifying the types of dissent that are permissable, and those that aren't, you have already slid most of the way down the slippery slope of dictatorship, game over. That is what totalitarianism is: the ability of those in power to dictate to the populace what is acceptable to say and what is not acceptable to say.
Not only have you entirely missed the point of the article, but you have shown just how ignorant you truly are about the basic fundamentals of a democratic society. I suggest you move to China, where you can revel in living in a country that seems to fit your principals better than America does. Or, be patient and wait a few more years, and you will have your wish, as America is about 50% of the way to full-blown dictatorship right now, thanks to people with beliefs such as yourself.
I know you think you've taken me apart on some intellectual level but its still the case that free market capitalism benefits the most people...oh...and I'm not a Republican...I'm a Libertarian...however I will be voting for McCain because Obama as a candidate is a piss poor joke
it took me like 10 minutes just to read that....
Oops! Ran over the 3 minute edit limit before I finished this final edit which has many corrections.
SnowWolf says:
"...let the markets decide…unbind the business man…he hires people and they pay taxes and everybody benefits."
I reply that corporate America and its overwhelmingly Republican (with some DLC Dims and their sympathizers) captains of industry haven't just been permanently exporting middle-class manufacturing jobs--they've been exporting the middle-class lifestyle and middle-class TAX REVENUES with it. They are replacing this with service wage jobs, an increasingly servile-class standard of living and inferior servile-class tax revenues. The same corporate ruling-class Righties compound this fiscal stupidity by piling on tax cuts for themselves during multiple open-ended war expenditures.
They rely on the thug-puppet in the White House and VP Lurch O'Pacemaker to continue to borrow more money from China, Japan, Britain and various Arab oil sheiks than ALL other presidents combined. Debt plus generations of interest at this point with no end in sight.
Why do you think your fellow Republicans in the White House are doing all that mad borrowing to finance our country's operating and military budgets, SnowWolf? Because they plan to default? Or because they've de-regulated the corporate class and military-industrial foxes so much they can't find enough revenue in the hen house? Or both?
Your lot has been having a grand self-rewarding tax cut party--living it up during war-time on the blood and treasure of the working poor and working middle-class--and you demand MORE de-regulation than we've already had for the last 30 years without offering any evidence whatsoever to support your incorrect assertions--even readily observable anecdotal accounts. Your claims are factually challenged to put it mildly. Don't expect informed people with a social conscience to share them.
Business interests that wanted to be more 'unbound' combined to de-regulate the investment and commercial banks, eliminated the Glass-Steagall Act, and eliminated regulations and law enforcement mechanisms against usury and questionable home mortgage lending and--along with inferior incomes and, thus, inferior tax revenue from disappearing middle-class jobs--created the present housing and credit crises.
The American business person (sorry, I'm not an aging sexist) is already more 'unbound' than at any time in the last 79 years; far more so than the business persons of Northern EU countries whose people have better health care outcomes, better public education (in many cases free universities), far less homelessness and economic disparity and far fewer people as a percentage of their population swelling an 'unbound,' rapidly privatizing, prison industrial complex. They are also not saddled with a half a Trillion dollar annual Pentagon budget that we Amurkans have on our necks from our run amok, self-incentivising military-industrial complex. That complex has been so de-regulated and privatized under Duhhbya that it is riddled with crooked crony contractors (more 'unbound' business persons) who have famously ripped off Billions of dollars from American tax payers.
Examine Bush's record of simultaneous tax cuts for the super rich during war-time, de-regulation of everything from the EPA to the FDA to massive bank bail-outs for more of the super-rich (socialism for the ruling class)--and then look at what he claimed he would do in terms of job creation in 2001 and 2004 and observe how spectacularly he failed at that as well. Every quarter he's been in office except for a very few. Bush isn't just enriching the super-rich, eliminating more middle-class jobs and helping to crank out more service wage jobs--he isn't even creating enough service wage jobs.
For SnowWolf to claim "everybody benefits" from de-regulated business persons would be laughable if it wasn't, in fact, so historically tragic.
SnowWolf persists:
"Does anybody here really believe that taxing the oil companies more or taking their profits is going to bring the price down or make any more available?"
I do believe that prices can be pushed down and more oil can be made available indirectly, yes. Myself, Amory Lovins and many other people have gained this perspective by looking at the comparative economic and environmental costs of maintaining the present fossil fool dinosaur paradigm; the globally soaring number of large investments in cheaper, more quickly installed and cleaner wind, solar and solar-thermal technologies that the alleged "free market" you gush about is already opting for, and the absurd construction and storage costs of re-opening the nuclear can'o'worms.
Taxing the oil companies more and taking a MUCH larger share of their profits (than the disgraceful 1% or less now common to that industry) to devote that money to (1) significant research in alternative and renewable energy sources and technologies, (2) corporate energy conservation investment in everything from superior production line technologies and engineering designs that yield more fuel efficient cars and heating and cooling units to (3) new solar-thermal heat exchange systems would all yield (4) breakthroughs and micro-power economies of scale that would significantly reduce current demand levels in the U.S. for fossil fuels. That, in turn, would create downward pressure on fossil fuel prices. How significant that pressure would be would be determined by how much investment. Lucky for us Big Oil has been making record profits every quarter for years now, so there's plenty of ill-gotten gains and greenhouse gas fat to trim there.
SnowWolf re-treads another cold trail:
"The economy works best when Government gets the hell out of it…"
While SnowWolf offers no evidence to support this nonsensical claim I myself have known many people who have gratefully benefited from a variety of government intrusions into the economy--in the form of government regulations and programs--that are so popular and effective, in fact, that many of them date back to the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
These include government subsidized public education, public health (including stuff like disease inoculations), public sanitation systems (aka sewers, garbage collection), food and drug safety inspectors, elevator inspectors, the Rural Electrification Act, Social Security, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the original GI Bill and others.
The GI Bill took America from a nation where one in three adults owned their own home to two out of three. It multiplied the number of people with degrees in engineering and business over five-fold and this led, in turn, to an explosion in the number of new small and medium size business entrepreneurs that greatly accelerated the post-WWII economic boom: a boom that lifted up all economic classes, not just the wealthiest.
Of course, nowadaze, we hear much more about all the government interference with, ahem, "conservative" and 'unbound' business persons at places like Bear-Stearns, InyMac Bank and others (soon to be many others) being bailed out by Big Government at tax payer expense while many of their investors (little middle-class suckers who scraped-together life savings in deposits over 100K per bank) are screwed. The CEO of Bear-Stearns got a $50 million dollar "sweetener" from JP Morgan just for renegotiating his mismanaged bank's own goddamned bailout after Bernanke and Bush bungled the first buy-out offer. Now that IS special. This is the kind of government interference in the economy we get with Rightie lunatics running the asylum.
These financial sector government "interference" programs have names like Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and others. SnowWolf must just curse them for slowing the run on the banks. I myself hope and pray for some economic miracles to intercede for us "little people" in this de-regulatory corporatist nightmare economy with the time these bailouts will buy, although several other major economic weaknesses together with the bank runs point to major structural decline.
And by not facing the consequences of their de-regulated actions the big players have no disincentive to try it again if the chance ever presents itself again in their lifetime. All the profits from these massively failed ventures-come-bailouts are being privatized by the ultra-select few and the costs socialized to all the rest of us. This is neo-conservative reverse Robin Hood Socialism, and at its heart is the de-regulatory 'unbinding' of the previous, more responsibly governed Welfare State left to us by more socially and fiscally responsible administrations of the past.
When the first Great Depression hit, and the runs on the bank had done their work, the economic teeth sunk in and one out of four Americans became unemployed. People started to stand in soup and bread lines subsidized by churches, civic groups and some local governments. Many starved to death. Many people committed suicide. Marriages failed. Populations of orphanages swelled. Tens of millions of Americans became desperate. Organized crime spread. Civil unrest began to spread.
The Republican solution was: "Do nothing. Let the market solve it." FDR ordered shut-downs of many banks, but not substantial government bailouts on the order we may expect throughout next year as widely predicted by the "sober, responsible" business press. On the other hand, this is the same anti-regulatory echo chamber who also sold us the multi-billion dollar losses to tax-payers, investors and employees brought to us by Bush's good 'unbound' business crony, "Kenny-boy" Lay of Enron.
While Roosevelt and all his government "interference" in the economy did not, in and of itself, get America OUT of the Depression, it got 40 million or more Americans THROUGH the Depression which lasted from 1929 to the end of World War II. US population was roughly half what it is now. Reader, just imagine in your worst red nightmares what your life would have been like if you had had to suffer an economic Depression lasting 16 years with peak unemployment of 25% under heartless Republican filth like George W. Bush or senile petrified flogs like Ronald Raygun or Grampa John McCain.
You cogitate that well and truly enough given present and unfolding grim economic realities and you might begin to understand why some progressives like myself are still willing to hold our noses and vote for a too slick DLC Romulan like O'bama rather than risk another Great Depression under an anger management aneurysm like John McCain--a man who has been economically sheltered--by blood and extra-marital sexual affair with his present heiress--all his precious little life. Even the NVA gave him special food and treatment when he was a POW because his dad was THE Admiral in command of the Naval fleet dealing with Vietnam. No thanks. I've had enough of Republican Little Lord Fauntleroys in the person of Duhhhbya.
Oy, weh ist mir! SnowWolf lopes on:
"Theres plenty of blame to go around in the business and labor sectors…nobody seems to want to enforce the borders because the Democrats want minority voters and the businesses want cheap labor…want to know what suppresses wages?…sending our industrial base overseas because of "the environmment" and letting China and India pay people a lot LESS than we used to make doing the same job…so we go into "service" jobs…and Landscapers can hire one American for $18 an hour or three illegals for $6 an hour each…under the table…if the Government was sealing the Borders instead of diddling over whether illegals should get free healthcare we wouldn't have these problems"
What a gigantic saber tooth tiger hairball of unobservant mis-attributions and mis-apprehensions. She blames "the environment" for sending our industrial base out of the country. Right, all those U.S. corporations in de-regulatory, 'unbound' China sure have improved China's and the world's environment. Peered at the Olympics through that dense smog over there lately?
Let me spell it out to you: GATT, NAFTA and the WTO were all motivated by overwhelmingly pro de-regulatory political forces; primarily conservative Republican business interests with their usual smaller coterie of DLC Dimocrat sell-outs. They included American and European business persons seeking to be globally 'unbound' from having to pay decent living wages to their own countrymen and women, 'unbound' from labor unions or from having to pay for things like an 8 hour day or 40 hour week, or unemployment insurance, or workman's comp, or secure non-raidable old age pensions, or worker's health care, or workplace or environmental safety, or environmental clean-ups. But first and foremost they wanted to cut their dirty deals with the dubious leaders of 3rd World countries whose cash-starved, more authoritarian governments and politically down-trodden masses they could much more easily manipulate in the process of selling out the American middle-class here at home.
The de-regulatory "free trade" treaties allowed newly 'unbound' predominantly US and EU business people, as well as some conglomerates from a few of the Asian Tiger nations to march into 3rd World countries and cut deals with their governments to seize land and mineral rights and privatize resources like water that had previously belonged in common to peasant-class people in some cases for millenniums up until that time. This drove tens of millions of small farmers and fishermen around the world off their land and rivers and streams and, thus, created enormous demand for jobs in North America in places like Mexico and parts of Central America where this process is ongoing. Enron was involved in water privatization schemes in India before it imploded in corruption. Bechtel faced a successful water privatization peasant rebellion in Bolivia.
Any real attempt to halt the flow of illegals into America should honestly examine America's role regarding the "free-trade" regime that spurred that flow by creating the demand. Rounding up, busting and heavily fining many more 'unbound' Amurkan business owners who hire illegals would create a far more effective disincentive than the dubious mass busts of illegals that Team Bush now traffics in. There are tens of millions more where they came from still on the way. It's a numbers game. But nooooo, Republicans simply don't bust other Republicans. Better to blame it all on the Democrats and the illegals.
Speaking of which, Bush and his Latino nephew-in-law were the ones who first started openly playing the Hispanic race card in a presidential race during Bush's election race before the 2000 election--not the Democrats. Remember, SnowWolf, how the press gushed at Bush's little speeches in Spanish and how good looking his Latino nephew-in-law was and how smart Karl Rove was to finally get the Republicans to look at the new Hispanic demographics in America?
Of course, Bush turned around and blew that opportunity just like a certain former Rightie governor of California named Pete Wilson. But Republicans have always had a tough time on race traditionally appealing with so much Jesse Helms, Willie Horton bigotry to so many bigots. I remember how Rove's operatives in South Carolina were leaving automated phone messages suggesting Cindy McCain was a drug addict who had mothered a little black baby. McCain actually forgave those Team Bush bastards for that. Some people will do anything for power.
Both McCain and Obama are stupid for not more vigorously going after the Hispanic vote. McCain did hypocritically deign to appear before the NAACP this election year after rudely refusing to do so last year.
Man, this is exhausting. One more:
"Government should do only what is Constitutionally mandated."
If that were true, and the founding fathers had not deliberately designed a Constitution with enough legal elasticity built into it specifically for the purposes of legislating new laws to adapt to social, economic, foreign policy and cultural change, then we would still be a nation of slaves and slave owners, women would still be unable to vote, there would be no public sewage systems or public health programs or safety inspections of our food, water and drugs (horrendously deteriorating under right-wing Clinton and Bush II), and this nation would be much farther along in its backwards march towards a laissez-faire pre-1861 capitalist la-la land than 30 years of plutocratic think-tank propaganda has struggled to drag it.
Change is an inevitable part of life and government. Our system was intended by our founding fathers to be a system of checks and balances where counterbalancing branches of government placed initial checks on extreme movements and the ability to re-think, re-examine and re-legislate unworkable laws and national directions was the inherent responsibility of Congress--which was always intended to be the most representative and most powerful branch of government--not the Executive Branch. I NEVER hear any Republican complain about Bush's sundry unprecedented abuses of Executive Branch power--ever.
Here is my warning to all Republicans: The unaccountable, anti-Constitutional system of rule by secret order, hundreds of presidential signing statements quietly contravening even his own Party's legislation, denial of due process, kidnapping innocent citizens of allied nations, torture, hostile anti-regulatory politicization of regulatory agencies and the Department of Justice, multi-technological warrantless surveillance, etc., set up by Bush and his neo-cons is likely to be unchecked by the corporatist DLC Dimocrats running Congress who have been too cosy to Republican extremists for two decades.
This means, until a president is impeached for the same or similar crimes, ANY president of ANY Party in power will be free to take the same anti-Constitutional, dubiously and legalistically "re-defined" criminal template for misgovernance off the shelf and abuse it--potentially creating even bigger economic, foreign policy and environmental catastrophes than Bush II has done. Don't kid yourself about the extreme nature of the threat to our degenerating government, court system, rule of law and society this represents.
This is why your problem should be with what more recent generations of corporatist political hacks (GOP and DLC Dims) have done to that original system of checks and balances and free and open Congressional debate not steered by the same short list of fat-cat corporatist contributors who pay for both Parties' campaigns. Your problem should also be with the lack of free and open debate in Big Media for similar reasons of corporate concentration of media platforms in fewer and fewer hands. Even some powerful Right-wing organizations are justifiably afraid of the Big Telecomms' march to destroy Net Neutrality. If anyone will be in a position to install a new tyranny of Caesars, it will be 'unbound' corporate entities running broadband infotainment and communication networks including search engines. Comcast and others have already been caught censoring or altering content for their internet subscribers.
I urge you to go back and read the Bill of Rights and study to see how many of them have been trampled by the Righties in the GOP and DLC. Make no mistake, many (not all by any means) of the worst ideas of the current maladministration were begun on a smaller scale under Clinton. Secret rendition was one. Bush and his hench-persons just multiplied their abuse all out of proportion and sanity and started rendering people to known Torture States.
Unchecked, the march of these Executive Branch power grabs can only lead downwards.
SnowWolf says:
"...let the markets decide…unbind the business man…he hires people and they pay taxes and everybody benefits."
I reply that corporate America and its overwhelmingly Republican (with some DLC Dims and their sympathizers) captains of industry haven't just been permanently exporting middle-class manufacturing jobs--they've been exporting the middle-class lifestyle and middle-class TAX REVENUES with it. They are replacing this with service wage jobs, an increasingly servile-class standard of living and inferior servile-class tax revenues. The same corporate ruling-class Righties compound this fiscal stupidity by piling on tax cuts for themselves during multiple open-ended war expenditures.
They rely on the thug-puppet in the White House and VP Lurch O'Pacemaker to continue to borrow more money from China, Japan, Britain and various Arab oil sheiks than ALL other presidents combined. Debt plus generations of interest at this point with no end in sight.
Why do you think your fellow Republicans in the White House are doing all that mad borrowing to finance our country's operating and military budgets, SnowWolf? Because they plan to default? Or because they've de-regulated the corporate class and military-industrial foxes so much they can't find enough revenue in the hen house? Or both?
Your lot has been having a grand self-rewarding tax cut party--living it up during war-time on the blood and treasure of the working poor and working middle-class--and you demand MORE de-regulation than we've already had for the last 30 years without offering any evidence whatsoever to support your incorrect assertions--even readily observable anecdotal accounts. Your claims are factually challenged to put it mildly. Don't expect informed people with a social conscience to share them.
'Unbound' business interests combined de-regulate the investment and commercial banks, eliminating the Glass-Steagall Act, and eliminated laws and law enforcement mechanisms against usury and questionable home mortgage lending and--along with inferior incomes and, thus, inferior tax revenue from disappearing middle-class jobs--created the present housing and credit crises.
The Amurkan business person (sorry, I'm not an aging sexist) is already more 'unbound' than at any time in the last 79 years; far more so than the business persons of Northern EU countries whose people ALL have better health care outcomes, better public education (in many cases free universities), far less homelessness and economic disparity and far fewer people as a percentage of their population swelling an 'unbound,' rapidly privatizing, prison industrial complex. They are also not saddled with a half a Trillion dollar annual Pentagon budget that we Amurkans have on our necks from our run amok, self-incentivising military-industrial complex. That complex has been so de-regulated and privatized under Duhhbya that it is riddled with crooked crony contractors (more 'unbound' business persons) who have famously ripped off Billions of dollars from American tax payers.
Examine Bush's record of simultaneous tax cuts for the super rich during war-time, de-regulation of everything from the EPA to the FDA to massive bank bail-outs for more of the super-rich (socialism for the ruling class)--and then look at what he claimed he would do in terms of job creation in 2001 and 2004 and observe how spectacularly he failed at that as well. Every quarter he's been in office except for a very few. Bush isn't just enriching the super-rich, eliminating more middle-class jobs and helping to crank out more service wage jobs--he isn't even creating enough service wage jobs.
For SnowWolf to claim "everybody benefits" from de-regulated business persons would be laughable if it wasn't, in fact, so historically tragic.
SnowWolf persists:
"Does anybody here really believe that taxing the oil companies more or taking their profits is going to bring the price down or make any more available?"
I do believe that prices can be pushed down and more oil can be made available indirectly, yes. Myself, Amory Lovins and many other people who have looked at the comparative economic and environmental costs of maintaining the present fossil fool dinosaur paradigm, the soaring number of new investments in cheaper, faster online and cleaner wind, solar and solar-thermal technologies that the alleged "free market" you gush about is already opting for, and the absurd construction and storage costs of re-opening the nuclear can'o'worms.
Taxing the oil companies more and taking a MUCH larger share of their profits (than the disgraceful 1% or less now common to that industry) to devote that money to significant research in alternative and renewable energy sources and technologies, corporate energy conservation investment (in everything from superior production line technologies and engineering designs that yield more fuel efficient cars and heating and cooling units to new solar-thermal heat exchange systems would yield breakthroughs and economies of scale that would greatly reduce current demand levels in the U.S. for fossil fuels. That, in turn, would create downward pressure on fossil fuel prices. How significant that pressure would be would be determined by how much investment. Lucky for us Big Oil has been making record profits every quarter for years now, so there's plenty of ill-gotten gains and greenhouse gas fat to trim there.
SnowWolf re-treads another cold trail:
"The economy works best when Government gets the hell out of it…"
While SnowWolf offers zero evidence to support this nonsensical claim I myself have known many people who have gratefully benefited from a variety of government intrusions into the economy--in the form of government regulations and programs--that are so popular and effective, in fact, that many of them date back to the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
These include government subsidized public education, public health (including stuff like disease inoculations), public sanitation systems (you know, SnowWolf, they're called sewers), food and drug safety inspectors, elevator inspectors, the Rural Electrification Act, Social Security and others.
Of course, nowadaze, we hear much more about all the government interference with, ahem, "conservative" and 'unbound' business persons at places like Bear-Stearns, InyMac Bank and others (soon to be many others) being bailed out by Big Government at tax payer expense while many of their investors (little middle-class suckers who scraped-together life savings in deposits over 100K per bank) are screwed. The CEO of Bear-Stearns got a $50 million dollar "sweetener" from JP Morgan just for renegotiating his mismanaged bank's own goddamned bailout after Bernanke and Bush bungled the first buy-out offer. Now that IS special. This is the kind of government interference in the economy we get with Rightie lunatics running the asylum.
These other old government "interference" programs have names like Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and others. SnowWolf must just curse them for slowing the run on the banks. I myself hope and pray for some economic miracles to intercede for us "little people" in this de-regulatory corporatist nightmare economy with the time these bailouts will buy, although several other major economic weaknesses together with the bank runs point to major structural decline. And by not facing the consequences of their de-regulated actions the big players have no disincentive to try it again if the time ever re-ripens in their lifetime. All the profits are being privatized by the ultra-select few and the costs socialized to all the rest of us. This is neo-conservative reverse Robin Hood Socialism and at its heart is the de-regulatory 'unbinding' of the previous, more responsibly governed Welfare State left to us by more socially and fiscally responsible administrations of the past.
When the first Great Depression hit, and the runs on the bank had done their work, as the economic teeth locked in and one out of four Americans became unemployed, people started to stand in soup and bread lines subsidized by churches, civic groups and some local governments. Many starved to death. Many people committed suicide. Marriages failed. Populations of orphanages swelled. Tens of millions of Americans became desperate. Organized crime spread.
The Republican solution was: "Do nothing. Let the market solve it." There were government shut-downs of many banks, but not substantial government bailouts on the order we may expect throughout next year as widely predicted by the "sober, responsible" business press. On the other hand, this is the same anti-regulatory echo chamber who also sold us the multi-billion dollar losses to tax-payers, investors and employees brought to us by Bush's good 'unbound' business crony, "Kenny-boy" Lay at Enron.
While Roosevelt and all his government "interference" in the economy did not, in and of itself, get America OUT of the Depression, it got 40 million or more Americans THROUGH the Depression which lasted from 1929 to the end of World War II. US population was roughly half what it is now. Reader, just imagine in your worst red nightmares what your life would have been like if you had had to suffer an economic Depression lasting 16 years with peak unemployment of 25% under heartless Republican filth like George W. Bush or senile petrified flogs like Ronald Raygun or Grampa John McCain.
You cogitate that well and truly enough given present and still unfolding grim economic realities and you might begin to understand why some progressives like myself are still willing to hold our noses and vote for a too slick DLC Romulan like O'bama rather than risk another Great Depression under an anger management aneurysm like John McCain who has been economically sheltered--by blood and sexual affair with his present heiress--all his precious little life. No thanks. I've had enough of Republican Little Lord Fauntleroys in the person of the present chimp and his vamp-veep still playing bedtime for Bonzo in the Exec Office.
Oy, weh ist mir! SnowWolf lopes on:
"Theres plenty of blame to go around in the business and labor sectors…nobody seems to want to enforce the borders because the Democrats want minority voters and the businesses want cheap labor…want to know what suppresses wages?…sending our industrial base overseas because of "the environmment" and letting China and India pay people a lot LESS than we used to make doing the same job…so we go into "service" jobs…and Landscapers can hire one American for $18 an hour or three illegals for $6 an hour each…under the table…if the Government was sealing the Borders instead of diddling over whether illegals should get free healthcare we wouldn't have these problems"
What a gigantic saber tooth tiger hairball of unobservant mis-attributions and mis-apprehensions. She blames "the environment" for sending our industrial base out of the country. Right, all those U.S. corporations in de-regulatory, 'unbound' China sure have improved China's and the world's environment.
Let me spell it out to you: GATT, NAFTA and the WTO were all motivated by overwhelmingly pro de-regulatory political forces, primarily conservative Republican business interests with their usual smaller coterie of DLC Dimocrat sell-outs. They included American and European business persons seeking to be globally 'unbound' from having to pay decent living wages to their own countrymen and women, 'unbound' from labor unions or from having to pay for things like an 8 hour day or 40 hour week, or unemployment insurance, or workman's comp, or secure non-raidable old age pensions, or worker's health care, or environmental safety, or environmental clean-ups. But first and foremost they wanted to cut their dirty deals with the dubious leaders of 3rd World countries whose cash-starved, more authoritarian governments and politically down-trodden masses they could much more easily manipulate in the process of selling out the American middle-class here at home.
The de-regulatory "free trade" treaties allowed newly 'unbound' predominantly US and EU business people, as well as some conglomerates from a few of the Asian Tiger nations to march into 3rd World countries and cut deals with their governments to seize land and mineral rights and privatize resources like water that had previously belonged in common to peasant-class people in some cases for millenniums up until that time. This drove tens of millions of small farmers around the world off their land and, thus, created enormous demand for jobs in North America in places like Mexico and parts of Central America where this process is ongoing. Enron was involved in water privatization schemes in India before it imploded in corruption.
Any real attempt to halt the flow of illegals into America should honestly examine America's role regarding the "free-trade" regime that spurred that flow by creating the demand. Rounding up, busting and heavily fining many more 'unbound' Amurkan business owners who hire illegals would create a far more effective disincentive than the dubious mass busts of illegals that Team Bush now traffics in. It's a numbers game. But nooooo, Republicans simply don't bust other Republicans. Better to blame it all on the Democrats and the illegals.
Also, Bush and his Latino nephew-in-law were the ones who first started openly playing the Hispanic race card in a presidential race during Bush's election race before the 2000 election--not the Democrats. Remember, SnowWolf, how the press gushed at Bush's little speeches in Spanish and how good looking his Latino nephew-in-law was and how smart Karl Rove was to finally get the Republicans to look at the new Hispanic demographics in America?
Of course, Bush turned around and blew that opportunity just like a certain former Rightie governor of California named Pete Wilson. But Republicans have always had a tough time on race traditionally appealing with so much Jesse Helms, Willie Horton bigotry to so many bigots. I remember how Rove's operatives in South Carolina were leaving automated phone messages suggesting Cindy McCain was a drug addict who had mothered a little black baby. McCain actually forgave those Team Bush bastards for that. Some people will do anything for power.
Both McCain and Obama are stupid for not more vigorously going after the Hispanics vote. McCain did hypocritically deign to appear before the NAACP this election year after rudely refusing to do so last year.
Man, this is exhausting. One more:
"Government should do only what is Constitutionally mandated."
If that were true, and the founding fathers had not deliberately designed a Constitution with enough legal elasticity built into it specifically for the purposes of legislating new laws to adapt to social, economic, foreign policy and cultural change, then we would still be a nation of slaves and slave owners, women would still be unable to vote, there would be no public sewage systems or public health programs or safety inspections of our food, water and drugs (horrendously deteriorating under right-wing Clinton and Bush II), and this nation would be much farther along in its backwards march towards a laissez-faire pre-1861 capitalist la-la land than 30 years of plutocratic think-tank propaganda has struggled to drag it. Change is an inevitable part of life and government. Our system was intended by our founding fathers (that intention not the same as what more recent generations have done to it) to be a system of checks and balances where counterbalancing branches of government placed initial checks on extreme movements and the ability to re-think, re-examine and re-legislate unworkable laws and national directions was the inherent responsibility of Congress--which was always intended to be the most representative and most powerful branch of government--not the Executive Branch.
If you want to complain about a Constitutional issue, you should complain about that. I NEVER hear any Republican complain about Bush's sundry unprecedented abuses of Executive Branch power--ever.
I urge you to go back and read the Bill of Rights and study to see how many of them have been trampled by the Righties in the GOP and DLC. Make no mistake, many (not all by any means) of the worst ideas of the current maladministration were begun on a smaller scale under Clinton. Bush and his hench-persons just multiplied their abuse all out of proportion and sanity.
In Room 101 we find Big Macs.
SEOUL, South Korea - South Korean police arrested nearly 160 people at an overnight rally in downtown Seoul opposing the resumption of U.S. beef imports, an official said Saturday.
And there are other things as well- like the time I told a cop that "The United States is just a huge, open-air labor camp being run by the police, and administered by the political elite for the benefit of the billionaires." Then he followed me right out of the convenience store parking lot at midnight, right on my back bumper with his high beams on, and pulled me over for having a license plate bulb that wasn't bright enough. It was a $60 citation and I had to stand in front of a judge for it.
Oh, I almost forgot--they also banned me from their local town chat server and state troopers came to my door asking why I obviously don't like police officers.
"Just let it go. "
I agree, miftin. You've let me get under your skin. Take a break for a while.
"Rush Limbaugh "
He can be a real bufoon at times, hmm?
I already am acting. I've been acting against this local fascism for almost 14 years. They've smeared me up one wall and down the other and they're still doing it. All they do is repeat Rush Limbaugh talking points and grin like jackasses. They've called me mentally ill, they've called me a degenerate, they've called me a bum, they've called me stupid, they've call me a communist, they've called me a sloppy dog breeder, They've called me a liar in the newspaper, when my mom was alive they took their spite out on her, they've called me a lousy drummer, they arrested me for cracking a joke downtown, they tackled me and handcuffed me while I held a protest sign against torture, they wanted to take up a collection to send me to Afghanistan, they've ridiculed me, and I'm not even allowed to enter one particular restaurant because I'm me. Maybe eventually they'll pass a law making it illegal to be me.
When logged in I want to participate or interact with other members.
In this case I want to comment on the effect of group actions that seem to take on more importance than the story they are commenting on.
The story is about a coordinated effort to defuse a protest movement.
I think the tactics employed by the government to be able to assess and to analyze a threat are what the message is about.
Like my decision to protest in front of these organized government groups and to "take notes", and to "Speak out", about my opinions. When a bunch of CD users agree to do something that is an important matter, just like a decision to take an action. "No trolling", just sense..
I can't make a civilized response to the advocates of this hierarchy but I will tell you what I will do. I will go the political convention in Denver and I will participate in the free speech zones.
I have to apply now if I'm going to get that all important passport to a foreign country (from Texas to Colorado) and get permission to protest.
I had been a slave to my 50 hour a week job, but for you members that feel like dissent within our group is better tha rational talk I have a real response that I hope you will follow. Act now or lose your ability to choose.
hman11
Here you can see the video that broke the story. This camera crew walked right in this unlocked warehouse.
Miftin,
Just let it go. It's foolish to keep feeding into it. It just makes everyone involved look silly and all focus is lost.
What is this guy, a junior in high school on summer vacation?
"Proof that he is here to waste our time."
How so?
"challenges such as "Prove It!, Prove It!" "
Some ideas are better than others. Ideas based on facts and reasoning are better than those that aren't. Worse is offering things as fact when they are merely opinion. Why not prove something if asked?
"without offering anything of sincere substance."
It was such a minor point, in this thread, that not all dissent lives up to being a bulwark of something or patriotic. And I don't see how saying that makes me right wing. Or in saying that I don't think 911 was an inside job I am right wing.
If it's true that I lack sincerity or substance in my dissent here, which I don't think was dissent at all but augmentation of other points made in Goodman's article, and not insincere either, than you likely agree with me that it's not particularly patriotic or anything and merely without substance. So if you agree to that I made my point in a round about way.
I probably shouldn't add to the Jake Newton distraction, but I do agree the best course is to ignore him. I've seen him turn many a thread into exhausting tit-for-tat infantilism, just because he can usually find someone to take the bait. I don't even care to speculate on his motivation, but he comes across as a spoiled little brat trying to interrupt adult conversations with challenges such as "Prove It!, Prove It!" or "I Didn't Say That!", without offering anything of sincere substance. I do notice he has moderated himself somewhat lately in comparison to his posts a couple of months ago. So I would be happy if Jake would start offering some slightly better formed ideas, no matter from whatever political spectrum, rather than just trying to interrupt or distract. So, I've disregarded my own advice and taken the bait this one time. Love ya, Jake. Now go get ready for that toga/keg party.
Denver City Council shows what they think of protesters:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/04/protesters-plan-be-there-when-council-considers-ur
jimmyjazz August 15th, 2008 5:05 pm
If someone has already commented on him then ignore him for sure. First, it would it be a bit ironic to kick someone off the board for a comment they made in a thread on dissent
that was SO totally right...however there are those on this board that don't want a forum...they want an echo chamber where they hear people who hold the exact same views slap each other on the back when they espouse them
"Free Speech for me but not for thee" is becoming the Left's creed
Thomas More
I'm not talking total "lasseiz faire"...but let the markets decide...unbind the business man...he hires people and they pay taxes and everybody benefits
Does anybody here really believe that taxing the oil companies more or taking their profits is going to bring the price down or make any more available?
The economy works best when Government gets the hell out of it...
Theres plenty of blame to go around in the business and labor sectors...nobody seems to want to enforce the borders because the Democrats want minority voters and the businesses want cheap labor...want to know what suppresses wages?...sending our industrial base overseas because of "the environmment" and letting China and India pay people a lot LESS than we used to make doing the same job...so we go into "service" jobs...and Landscapers can hire one American for $18 an hour or three illegals for $6 an hour each...under the table...if the Government was sealing the Borders instead of diddling over whether illegals should get free healthcare we wouldn't have these problems
Government should do only what is Constitutionally mandated...Defense and infrastructure (Highways and Skyways and such) and let the People run the economy...the Politicians should not be doing massive Boondoggles for their Constituents back home or threatening to Nationalize the oil industry...this isn't Venezuela
"I think the CD members should begin lobbying CD administration to kick this newton guy off the board. He just clutters up the threads and dumbs down the level of interaction. If it were up to jakenewton, everyone would just be calling each other names and he'd be right in his element."
Erm, or you could just ignore him. If someone has already commented on him then ignore him for sure. First, it would it be a bit ironic to kick someone off the board for a comment they made in a thread on dissent; second, he would just reregister as jakenewton2 within 10 minutes; thirdly, were do you draw the line? ThomasMore and SnowWolf both seem so right-wing and Patriotic that there desire to even be here baffles me, but what if others find them thought-provoking? Banning is not a good idea.
Raise the very notion of dissent and watch all the Rightie trolls crawl out of their woodwork with their mandibles bristling.
With all your self-righteous snipping and snorting it's not as if YOU ALL ever offer up any new ideas to improve things on ANY subject. In fact, most of your ideas are from the 16th century, and most of THEM have led to the current effed-up conditions afflicting the entire planet--most especially the historically unsupportable and patently illogical myth that social or world problems are best solved by a so-called "free market." Only illiterates and the laziest from of semi-literates believe this nonsense.
When I say to JakeNewton:
"This simply displays his personal fear of his own suspicions of an undefined, vaguely threatening form of dissent for which he has no evidence but can negatively characterize anyway he likes using the vaguest generalities."
He replies:
"You are entitled to *guess* about that."
How conveniently, and I might add, typically vacant and cutesy coy of him. Proof that he is here to waste our time.
I wouldn't mind if they ever had something intelligent to say, but even broadcast and print media can't (or won't) find intelligent right-wing news commentators of any integrity anymore. Moderate Republicans are extinct--the last ones who could think for themselves. The best the PBS News Hour can do is Mr. Beltway Smarm himself, David Brooks. So breathless and excitedly smug when the country was all jingo-fried by Team Bush lies in the lead-up to the Iraq invasion. So sullen and pissed-off as, one by one, his maladministration heroes and their policies were hammered into the ground as utterly inexcusable failures.
The Righties and their trolls know in their hearts their ideology is necrotic with outrageously cost-plus FAILURE and they cannot admit it to themselves. Hence the Rightie personality types we see spasmodically cruising CD like aging, crippled barracuda slowly losing their teeth to the abyss of political and literal extinction. Too bad the destructiveness of their core ideology will likely take most of the rest of humanity with it.
Why don't you Righties who pretend not to exist on the same lobotomized, pro-global warming,
God-Will-Rapture-the-Righteous-Christians-Even-Though- Israel-is-God's-Chosen-Perfect-Master-Race-There-Is-No-
Inherent-Contradiction-Here
fascist level as Rush Limbaugh and Ralph Reed judgmentally troop back to their sites or that of Matt Drudge and waste their time with your pointless petty drivel? You say you don't agree with them--GO PROVE IT!
We may or may not monitor the success of your skirmishes on these other sites. As JakeNewton said, "You are entitled to *guess* about that."
It's to CD's credit that they allow dissent. Smell the irony of your last post.
If this is supposed to be "News and Views for the Progressive Community" then why do we have to put up with these right-wing trolls?
Thomas More: "...unfettered free markets is what we have at the moment and that
distort's fair trade and hurt's our country."
No, we don't. You were right the first time. What we have now is a market that is slanted heavily towards bail outs for big business that fails and screws up, while allowing the rest to fail and disappear. There is NOTHING "free" about the situation that we have now other than any regulation or protection. We now have a situation of socialized debt and privatized profits. NOTHING about that is free.
The "free market" is NOT what should be making ANY decisions about society or it's freedoms. The market likes things that move along smoothly without anything clogging it's gears, regardless of how poorly it's doing. Sometimes the gears NEED to be clogged. Hence, our right to dissent. It makes no difference if the tyranny is from gov't or business aligned with gov't. Tyranny is still tyranny.
The market is not where we got our interstate highway system, our bridges, or our dams for power. It's not where actual cures for diseases come from. It's not to be trusted to run schools or to provide policing or justice. In my state, Colorado, we have a for profit justice system. Justice is now the last thing you can count on getting. What you can count on is extortion. It's now all about money, not about fairness or reasonable treatment under the law. We are 49th in education spending and 3rd in prison spending in my state. The market is NOT the mechanism that should be running things. It's goals are NOT those of social justice or freedom, but money. Nothing more.
Do you want to pay more to travel from state to state, or even across town? Then allow the market to build your roads. Do you want to pay more to educate your kids? Then allow the market to do it. Want to pay even more for health care? Then just keep on doing what we are doing, where we pay more than every other country on the planet and get worse outcomes than most of them. Want to have a justice system that has NO incentive to keep anyone out of itself? Then do what we in Colorado do and be prepared to pay both as a state and as a victim. That is what the market promises you, and also what they deliver.
The market is not what you want deciding things for your society. Unfortunately, that is what we are doing, and have been since the republicans took over. THEY make money, WE lose every time they do. And that is not a political rant, it's astatement of fact. Look it up. Since the republicans took over, we have been "privatizing" everything gov't used to do, and do well, and now we pay more and more for the same services, and are told how wonderful things are, when all that is wonderful is the profits that are made for those who already have more than they need, not the services we get for them. The rush to "privatizing" evertyhing has cheapened everything, and benefitted only the ultra rich, which was the idea. And the country fell for it, other than those of us who saw this disaster coming, and took alot of grief for saying so.
The market should decide what kind of toothpaste is available, or coffee, or bread. Not how much freedom and democracy you should have.
My friend Pat Henry said
"Give me Librium or give me Meth!"
Thank you Thomas and Goose2.
neither free speech nor free markets will be of any use against our emerging foe: the laws of physics and the inevitable consequences of our messing with the natural, interwoven molecular relationships of our world...the only way to save this planet is to stop turning it into products, and the only way to do that is to change our consumptive behavior...how about Consumaholics Anonymous? "Hi, I'm Dubet, and I didn't purchase a product today..."
>> As if we all buy that "Oops, another wedding party. Sorry about that guys." line.<<
It does seem that the Bushies are pretty anti-marriage these days the way they annihilate so many wedding parties... Thought they were pro-marriage. After all in Afganistan and Iraq they are most likely one man and one woman, not like they're gay or anything...
>>I totally agree. I can't believe the vitriol displayed towards Jakenewton. Because he has another thought or suggests another opinion from your's?<<
Well the regulars here really don't allow dissent. There is a cage for free speech right here on CD. Don't believe EVERY NEW THEORY of Global Warming? You're a FACIST! Don't hate Israel enough? You're a FACIST! Don't support Obama? You're a FACIST! Don't support Hillary? You're a FACIST! (I don't get that one though seems each side hated the other pretty firmly.) Anyway you get the picture, the fringe lunatics here have no concept of history, are guided by astrology, and hate anyone that doesn't pass their litmus test of progressivism.
CD should be a lot more. Should include more and be less judgemental. The loony regulars here make it a bad place to come for real progressives that want real change instead of street theater.
Dissenters?...Protestors?. Not really..just folks who want to get together in a public place to rub elbows with their fellow citizens. The first thing government agents do is demonize folks before they beat, torture, arrest or kill them. Right now the killer-cops of Denver are watching, zombir-like, movies of the worst riots in the world ,recieving programming to react to those riots. Those cops are going to kill a lot of people in Denver in a few days...just hide and watch.
>>Stephen V. Riley - You made a very important point, a national work stoppage that could not be policed, and would encourage maybe millions of dissenters that would not ordinarily participate. Certainly the internet could help pull this off.<<
That would end up like the "Day without a Mexican" that they held a couple years ago. Easier to get things done, fewer cars on the road, all the businesses open with fewer people in line. A strike in a country that is as evenly divided as we are is a waste of time. The right half will simply celebrate the day and the MSM will report how it failed and the progressives will simply be out a day of pay.
Peaceful, nonviolent protest is protected (or was)by the First Amendment. The Democratic Party should allow peaceful protest and let the Republicans have their "Free Speech Zones."
"But unfettered "free markets" which we do not have at the moment, distort fair trade and hurt's our country."
Sorry, I of course meant to say...unfettered free markets is what we have at the moment and that
distort's fair trade and hurt's our country."
"Free Markets have the capacity to solve every problem the World faces…and to quote Winston Churchill "Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the others"
Whoa! Not so in my opinion. Capitalism has been proven to far outpace any other form of economy and a Republic has proven to be the best form of government. Historically proven and empirically undisputed.
But unfettered "free markets" which we do not have at the moment, distort fair trade and hurt's our country.
There are some things only government can do. The "free market" fails every time it tries to do them.
PissantNobody August 15th, 2008 6:46 am
"The anger directed at him is shocking to me. Does he have a history that is not evident from this page of posts"
I totally agree. I can't believe the vitriol displayed towards Jakenewton. Because he has another thought or suggests another opinion from your's? Do you only want to talk to people that have the same opinion as you? How stimulating.
Crass and course language isn't proper in any case, but when used in a personal attack it's reprehensible.
If you can't express disagreement without dirty language or personal attack, perhaps you should rethink your argument.
"When Lefties don't have a coherent answer in a debate they turn to personal attack"
I appreciate your support, but there are personal attacks all over.
"I think Jakenewton has a point, even if not a positive path forward. Dissent must have positive direction. To protest without a forward-looking program is a waste of breath. "
Thank you. I was thinking along other lines though. As a hypothetical, think if there is someone in your protest group who has a much greater penchant for breaking windows and throwing animal blood on people than you do. Are you quite sure that this expression of dissent stems from an honest, informed, thoughtful and reasoned approach? Or is there perhaps some doubt in your mind that this sort of dissent is really a bulwark against tyranny or a high form of patriotism? Think about it. I doubt we could have much meaningful debate about the subject as a whole absent a specific example but I think you will know what it is in your heart.
"The anger directed at him is shocking to me. Does he have a history that is not evident from this page of posts"
Yes I do. I tend to disagree with most positions championed in these forums. I am not a "progressive". The reason I post here is that I am uninterested in discussing issues with people I already agree with. Thanks again for your comments.
"Et tu Jake?"
Gesundheit.
"Last I looked the Constitution allowed for the entirety of the United States to be a free speech zone."
Actually it says no such thing.
"He is insinuating that Goodman's respect for the idea of freedom to dissent in general must include her support for forms of dissent that are insinuated by him to be negative in some way or spurious "
Although she did not clarify and I doubt she supports mindless dissent. She didn't even have to write her version of the bumper sticker, the points around detention and protest areas being valid point on their own. Yet she did drop the over simplistic slogan, and I decided to try to clarify thae fallacy myself, given the history in here for so many to state that we all should "take to the streets" for seemingly any slight.
"This simply displays his personal fear of his own suspicions of an undefined, vaguely threatening form of dissent for which he has no evidence but can negatively characterize anyway he likes using the vaguest generalities."
You are entitled to *guess* about that.
"For example: Too much dissent is a "grave and gathering threat" "
Holy Strawman Batman!
"Also, there is absolutely nothing is wrong with "dissent for its own sake" "
I have already agreed with that but it doesn't automatically mean that the dissent is a bulwark or patriotic.
"JakeNewton wasted a lot of good people's time and muddied up the feedback to Amy Goodman's article which is his job as a troll."
And for that post of yours I should get the Golden Hook Award. Alas, I am not a troll, that's easier work.
There will be no real progress until the party of world proletarian socialism is built up and integrated into organized labor. At that point, coordinated labor actions can lead to real social progress.
I'll say it again...Socialism is Communism's Fugly Sister
Free Markets have the capacity to solve every problem the World faces...and to quote Winston Churchill "Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the others"
Why would you want to bow to the State as your Master?...are you Serfs or Men?
I just wish I could figure out what words are causing my posts to be rejected. The post above was recrafted about ten times before it would be accepted. Smart posters will copy their work before submitting, and finding it lost forever, without explanation or guidance about successful submission.
CD editors, please cool your censorship jets!
I'll try again...
I think Jakenewton has a point, even if not a positive path forward. Dissent must have positive direction. To protest without a forward-looking program is a waste of breath. The anger directed at him is shocking to me. Does he have a history that is not evident from this page of posts? I hope so, because otherwise his detractors are worth worrying about!
Sadly, LuckyLefty has Amy typed correctly. Her 'dissent' invariably leads nowhere further than writing your imperialist 'representatives' or some other non-solution of capitalist reform. She speaks with forked tongue.
Thomas O Anderson is correct in pointing to the you-know-what whitewash/silence as an example of the lack of meaningful dissent, but again, we see no positive solution offered, only a yearning for the restoration of the deeply flawed Constitution.
Mifton and Riley are getting warm, but still miss the mark, as a work stoppage without enlightened leadership will end in more of the same.
I thus come to my usual unassailable, but unpopular conclusion: There will be no real progress until the party of world proletarian socialism is built up and integrated into organized labor. At that point, coordinated labor actions can lead to real social progress. Spending your energy elsewise is mistaken. Advocating anything else is treachery or ahistorical foolishness.
I can't make a meaningful post! I have rewritten it five times, de-gutting it more each time, but it is rejected. Can the editors please openly post the guidelines so that we might have a little bit of free speaech here?
What is going on with this site? I can't post a comment, even without a single swear word! Luckily, I have gotten into the habit of copying before submitting. This is a test...
linkalpha August 15th, 2008 6:00 am
a purposely controversial show named "Politically Incorrect" dropped by network affiliates; advertising pulled from "60 Minutes," because Andy Rooney made humorous comments about the president's speech–are disturbing.
Yet the word BOYCOTT is the first thing Liberals call when there is something on TV that YOU don't like...it cuts both ways doesn't it?
You_Decide August 14th, 2008 8:02 pm
Free Speech Zones imply Zones of No-Free Speech.
Last I looked the Constitution allowed for the entirety of the United States to be a free speech zone
YOU...are absolutely correct...so why do Liberals tolerate "Speech Codes" and "Free Speech Zones" on Campus?
I blame "political Correctness" for this whole mess...you are ok with it on a College Campus but NOT at the convention?...
jakenewton August 14th, 2008 10:18 pm
"The only thing we can call you Jake is an ASSHOLE ."
How very adolescent and petulant of you
jake
When Lefties don't have a coherent answer in a debate they turn to personal attack
somehow that makes them feel Superior in an argument...
"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
What shall we do when...
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance."
"He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures."
or;
"He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation."
http://arborupdate.com/article/147/the-founding-fathers-on-dissent
"There has been dissent in virtually all of America's wars--including, albeit to a lesser degree, World War II. The government and general public have reacted to this dissent in different ways, depending on the circumstances. But wartime dissent has a long and honorable tradition in our nation's history. So the harsh overreactions in the past month to any discordant notes in the media's "patriotic" harmony--journalists fired or publicly excoriated; a purposely controversial show named "Politically Incorrect" dropped by network affiliates; advertising pulled from "60 Minutes," because Andy Rooney made humorous comments about the president's speech--are disturbing. The America I love has little to do with either its government or its military--both of which have lied to the public so often in my lifetime that I wouldn't accept a single one of their statements at face value. The America I love rests on the more trustworthy foundation of justice, freedom and respect for human rights."
"When my country moves away from that foundation, dissent is my highest patriotic duty."
Please read Dissent
by Michael Hasty on Common Dreams written in 2001
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1022-06.htm
Folks, JakeNewton is a sophist playing the reductio ad absurdum game: Like arguing about two different (and therefore impossible) shades of ideal "whiteness" in the sense of a Platonic ideal or doing some action to obtain Buddhist merit free from conscious attachments which, by definition, can never be consciously achieved in the real world.
He is insinuating that Goodman's respect for the idea of freedom to dissent in general must include her support for forms of dissent that are insinuated by him to be negative in some way or spurious even though he conveniently leaves the specific nature of this negativity or spuriousness undefined.
This simply displays his personal fear of his own suspicions of an undefined, vaguely threatening form of dissent for which he has no evidence but can negatively characterize anyway he likes using the vaguest generalities. For example: Too much dissent is a "grave and gathering threat" that justifies a preemptive crackdown on dissent in general in order to quell any potential specific negative dissent which may or may not arise but which I suspect is on the increase.
Sound familiar? This is the same suspicion trigger utilized in the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war. Condemn, repress or attack it because we have suspicions and you MUST share or respect our fear. JakeNewton and his ilk are the worst sort of cowards. They fear and despise the freedoms enumerated in the Constitution, Bill of Rights and international law and are deeply anti-American and xenophobic. They fear a restoration of the Constitution and rule by the human electorate and their truly representative members of Congress instead of rule by giant corporations and their lobbyists and Congressional whores most of all.
In a free society, the idea of dissent is not preemptively targeted and punitively punished for the sake of preemptively targeting and punitively punishing the idea of dissent, therefore, precisely because this is what our local and federal "law enforcement," governmental and private surveillance organizations and the military are now increasingly doing, we are not truly free. We are herded, managed and systematically deprived of core Constitutional liberties.
Also, there is absolutely nothing is wrong with "dissent for its own sake" for the same exact reason there is nothing wrong with "art for art's sake." I would rather live in a country that tolerates even the most inane dissent than one that does not, first and foremost because the substance of any cause for dissent is often in the eyes and ears of the dissenter(s) and the beholder.
JakeNewton wasted a lot of good people's time and muddied up the feedback to Amy Goodman's article which is his job as a troll. Don't take his or any of the screeching pro-Kadima hypocrites' bait. FDR was correct when he said, "The only thing we have to fear--is fear itself." It's time Americans remembered that and contemplated it in light of the aftermath in wasted blood and treasure of eight years of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Multi-trillion dollar wars, millions dead and displaced and more non-State sponsored AND official State terrorism and terrorists than ever.
"Dissent" in the USA is, in practical terms, completely inconsequential. The whole idea of locking a few people up in pens is sheer political theatrics with no relevance whatsoever. It is laughable. And those of you getting all hot and bothered about it are laughable too. Sure, it's 'bad'. But do you really and honsestly think we non-Americans give two hoots about you "American progressives" any more? You are, quite frankly and literally, useless.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." — John F. Kennedy
And, with Blackwater, the military, and National Guard, the corporate elite side are ready.
Don't support the corporate status quo, vote third party. If not this time (the democrats won't impeach, they continue funding the war, won't support universal health care), then when? How bad does it have to get? Are we already beyond the point of no return?
More specifically, vote Green Party, and get involved with them, make sure that they stay connected to basic principles of peace and justice for all.
miftin:
You made a very important point, a national work stoppage that could not be policed, and would encourage maybe millions of dissenters that would not ordinarily participate. Certainly the internet could help pull this off.
Amy Goodman, please take note!
One word:
wirecutters
Some people evidently still believe we live in a democratic republic, despite a vast array of evidence to the contrary. The only type of dissidence that would accomplish anything at this point, would be a national work stoppage. Shut down the entire economy. I notice that Amy Goodman isn't calling for that.
Your govt is a Representative Republic, not a Democracy. Democracy is just mob rule. A Representative govt Represents the rich for the largest part. When the Founders of your Nation wrote "We the People" they meant the people like themselves that were rich educated land owning slave owners.
You don't think they ever really would have ever let the common person rule over them do you? How naive.
Jake__Don`t you realize no one is supposed to dissent on this discussion? You should be penned up in barbed wire for not agreeing with everyone.
Dave Zirin says: "a lot of this Homeland Security funding is an absolute sham … it's being used to actually crush dissent, not to keep us safer in any real way." True, but what choice do we have except to keep on walking, keep on talking.
pfutrell - I believe there is a big scary plan to stop dissent. The planners have more money and are more ruthless and clever than we are. But there are more of us. Every time I have a conversation with someone who is observing a protest and they say "I didn't know about this" I get some of my energy back. There are still lots of people in government and even in police who will not go along with lawbreaking. I am hoping that American orneryness will keep us safe.
Et tu Jake?
Well, Jake has hung on to his bone like the wretched cur that he is. There is no point in trying to reason with him, since he's got his ONE point, and he's making it again and again to whatever you may offer him. He's a total jerk.
I wish that we Americans would, could, strike as they do so effectively in other countries. I concur with those who argue that our mental incarceration has been brought about by our behavior -- we sit in our homes, watching our TV's and are drugged into this sleepy unaware and uncaring state. We are invested in the very corporates who have stolen our minds and our souls. It seems like a grand plan has been unveiled into which we're bound, lock stock and barrel.
I have participated in dissent, that is, I have taken my time, and at my expense, to travel to the center of government to voice my disagreement with what is going on. No matter how large the numbers of people who have shown up, the press has always ignored us. Our Congress has been petitioned to no avail. We are voiceless, faceless nobodies. It's frustrating, and ultimately, very sad.
And now we're coralled into free speech zones. So that's it, is it? Anybody else feel like cattle? Would a little taser-buzz help round out the metaphor?
"The only thing we can call you Jake is an ASSHOLE ."
How very adolescent and petulant of you.
"Unconventional Denver, actually offered to call off its protests if Denver would redirect the $50-million federal grant it is receiving for security to "reinvest their police budget toward real community security: new elementary schools; health care for the uninsured; providing clean, renewable energy." The plea has not been answered."
Hats of to Unconventional Denver.
Jake said:"And if this were true you would not call it patriotic or anything like that would you?"
The only thing we can call you Jake is an ASSHOLE .
Check out Arundhati Roy's lecture "Brave New India" here
http://alternativeradio.org/speakers/ROYA.shtml
By voting for Obama or McCain, you're voting for the continued growth of the Police State.
Vote for Nader or McKinney and stop it.
Its really that simple. Makes no difference if Obama or McCain is elected. None whatsoever.
Many thanks, ezeflyer (8:34 p.m.)
. . . worth repeating, as is much of what Arundhati Roy has to say . . .
"The only thing worth globalizing is dissent."
"Looks like jake dissented against this article for no real reason "
And if this were true you would not call it patriotic or anything like that would you?
"As soon as you start trying to decide what's legitimate dissent and what isn't, you've lost your freedom."
Nonsense.
"The right of the people to disagree with the government and to express that disagreement, over any matter no matter how trivial, is the basis of all democracy."
I agree with that but when it's trivial it isn't patriotism or a bulwark against tyranny, it's trivial.
"when an editor or editors at this site can proclaim HTURT NEVELE ENIN (read it backwards) as categorically taboo,"
I'm going to agree with you even though their a bunch of moonbats as they say. Still, it's up to the ownership of CD.
"Sources? Specific Examples? "
Of what?
"She is advocating dissent in face of tyranny."
I know, which could be thoughtful, reasoned, heartfelt etc. or it could be petulant, unserious, etc. The tyranny part doesn't change that.
"The only thing worth globalizing is dissent."
Arundhati Roy
We used to have freedom of speech - now we have "free speech zones" which are meaningless as they do not get press coverage and the public therefore remains unaware and apathetic.
Throwing your vote away in a protest vote is the most idiotic thing you can possibly do. Neither Nader nor McKinney will get even three percent of the vote, but their syphoning off votes might just allow another Republican election steal as it did in Florida in 2000 when Bush "won" by less than six hundred votes statewide. As we all know, that Florida "win" enabled the Supreme Court to help Bush steal the national election. We can thank Nader for that!
Had Gore been installed in the presidency, things would be very much different today.
Even if you can't stand Obama, McCain's winning will mean several more right wing ideologues appointed to life terms on the Supreme Court and thousands more right wingers appointed to the Federal Bench nationwide.
It is more important to our freedom that it must be prevented. The damage Bush and Co have done to our country and our Constitution will never be repaired if McCain gets to appoint more ideologues.
If you and I want such nonsense to stop, the eassiest thing to do is to stop watching thE conventions on TV (I mean even on C-SPAN)and switch your party registration to no party preference. Then come November, vote:
Nader/Gonzalez
or
McKinney/Clemente
canadiankid,
I understand your frustration. If my posts help people vent, then good. I think that is what this forum is for many of us: a place to express our anger at what our country has become. Often, my posts draw criticism, which is fine. I suspect they are unclear or give readers the notion that I do not understand the article, the latter of which is not true because I do. However, the fault I have is writing based on the assumption that people have read my previous posts and know my views, and so, I do not include my views each time in the interest of brevity and avoiding repetition. I think what critics will find is my views are much aligned with theirs. I appreciate criticism from people who regularly post on CD. It is just the ones who rarely appear and try to sniper fire at those of us who do post here that I ask to request clarification from us before they go on their rants. Either way canadiankid, no harm, no foul.
Peace,
Claudius
Free Speech Zones imply Zones of No-Free Speech.
Last I looked the Constitution allowed for the entirety of the United States to be a free speech zone.
And please do us all a favor...PLEASE...DO NOT dress up like idiots in green wigs.
If you want to have an impact, hide yourself by camouflaging in cheap suits and ties. You'll be difficult to pick out of the crowd and will get much closer to the action than those wearing "look at me" outfits. Think about it. Infiltration then demonstration.
Apologies to claudius.
I was on the wrong page, or something ...