How Tenet Betrayed the CIA on WMD in Iraq
Journalist Ron Suskind's revelation that Saddam Hussein's intelligence chief was a prewar intelligence source reporting to the British that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction (WMD) adds yet another dimension to the systematic effort by then Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Director George Tenet to quash any evidence -- no matter how credible -- that conflicted with the George W. Bush administration's propaganda line that Saddam was actively pursuing a nuclear weapons programme.
According to Suskind's new book, 'The Way of the World', Iraqi Director of Intelligence Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti had been passing on sensitive intelligence to the UK's MI6 intelligence service for more than a year before the U.S invasion. In early 2003, Suskind writes, Habbush told MI6 official Michael Shipster in Jordan that Saddam had ended his nuclear programme in 1991 and his biological weapons programme in 1996. Habbush explained to the British official that Saddam tried to maintain the impression that he did have such weapons in order to impress Iran.
Suskind writes that the head of MI6, Richard Dearlove, flew to Washington to present details of the Habbush report to Tenet, who then briefed National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. Soon after that, the CIA informed the British that the Bush administration was not interested in keeping the Habbush channel open, according to Suskind's account.
Tenet has called the story of the Habbush prewar intelligence a 'complete fabrication', claiming Habbush had 'failed to persuade' the British that he had 'anything new to offer by way of intelligence'. His statement actually reinforces Suskind's account, however, by indicating that he had simply chosen not to believe Habbush. 'There were many Iraqi officials who said both publicly and privately that Iraq had no WMD,' said the statement, 'but our foreign intelligence colleagues and we assessed that these individuals were parroting the Baath party line and trying to delay any coalition attack.'
Contradicting Tenet's claim that the British did not take the Habbush report seriously, MI6 director Dearlove told Suskind he had asked Prime Minister Tony Blair why he had not acted on the intelligence from Habbush.
Another high-level U.S. source in the last months of the Saddam regime was Saddam's foreign minister Naji Sabri. Tyler Drumheller, the CIA's chief of clandestine operations for Europe from 2001 until 2005, recounts in his book 'On the Brink' that Sadri was passing on information to an official of a European government in early autumn 2002 indicating that hints of a WMD programme were essentially a 'Potemkin village' used to impress foreign enemies.
Sidney Blumenthal wrote in Sep. 2007 that two former CIA officers who had worked on the Sabri case identified the foreign intermediary as being France and said he had been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the CIA and French intelligence to provide documents on Saddam's WMDs.
Drumheller told '60 Minutes' that Sabri 'told us that they had no active weapons of mass destruction program.'
On Sep. 17, 2002, the CIA officer who had debriefed Sabri in New York, briefed CIA Deputy Director John McLaughlin, according to Blumenthal's account. McLaughlin responded that Sabri's information was at odds with 'our best source'. That was a reference to 'Curveball', the Iraqi who claimed knowledge of an Iraqi mobile bio-weapons lab programme but was later found to be a professional liar.
The next day, Tenet briefed Bush on Sabri's intelligence, but Bush rejected it out of hand as 'what Saddam wanted him to think'.
French intelligence agents later tapped Sabri's telephone conversations and determined that he was telling the truth. But it was too late. One of Tenet's deputies told the CIA officers, 'This isn't about intelligence. It's about regime change.'
Yet another highly credible U.S. source on the WMD issue in Sep. 2002 was Saad Tawfik, an electrical engineer who had been identified by the CIA as a 'key figure in Saddam Hussein's clandestine nuclear weapons programme'. The story of the CIA's handling of his testimony is told in James Risen's 'State of War'.
In early Sep. 2002, Tawfik's sister, who lived in Cleveland, flew to Baghdad with a mission from the CIA to obtain details about Saddam's nuclear weapons from her brother. But when she returned in mid-September, the CIA didn't like the report from her conversations with the source.
Tawfik told his sister that Saddam's nuclear programme had been abandoned in 1991. When she told him the CIA wanted her to ask such questions as 'how advanced is the centrifuge' and 'where are the weapons factories', Tawfik was incredulous that the CIA didn't understand that there was no such programme.
Tawfik's was only one of thirty cases of former Iraqi WMD experts who reported through relatives that Saddam had long since abandoned his dreams of WMD, according to Risen.
Both the Sabri evidence and the evidence from Tawfik and other former Iraqi experts was available to the CIA during the work on the Oct. 2002 National Intelligence Estimates (NIE). But the CIA's Directorate of Intelligence kept all of that evidence out of the NIE process.
No report based on any of that evidence was ever circulated to State, Defence or the White House, according to Risen and Blumenthal.
The disappearance of all that credible evidence reflected a deliberate decision by Tenet. The White House Iraq Group had just rolled out its new campaign to create a political climate supporting war in early September, and Tenet knew what was expected of him. As an analyst who worked on the NIE told Bob Drogin of the Los Angeles Times, 'The going-in assumption was that we were going to war, so this NIE was to be written with that in mind.' That means Tenet's account of the CIA's role in the WMD issue in his 2007 memoirs completely ignored the credible evidence from Habbush, Sabri and the former Iraqi specialists that there was no active program, as well as his own role in suppressing it.
Tenet even brazenly claimed that a 'very sensitive, highly placed source in Iraq' about whom 'little has been publicly said' had 'reported that production of chemical and biological weapons was taking place'. The reporting from the source, continuing through the NIE and beyond, 'gave those of us at the most senior level further confidence that our information about Saddam's WMD programmes was correct.'
Tenet was clearly referring to the reporting coming from the Sabri debriefings, but his description of them was a prevarication. As Blumenthal reported, they had written a report on Sabri's intelligence spelling out his view that there was no active WMD programme, but they later discovered that it had been rewritten and given an entirely new preamble asserting that Saddam already possessed chemical and biological weapons and was 'aggressively and covertly developing' nuclear weapons.
Tenet -- who was a political operator rather than an intelligence professional -- had betrayed the CIA's mission of providing objective analysis, instead choosing to serve the interests of the Bush administration in preparing the way for war. It is not difficult to imagine how he would have meekly carried out whatever was asked of him by the White House -- even forging a document and leaking it to the media, to buttress the administration's case for war.
Gareth Porter is an investigative historian and journalist. The paperback edition of his latest book, 'Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam' was published in 2006.
Copyright © 2008 IPS North America
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125 Comments so far
Show AllUmm. Okay.
"I just didn't understand all of the many arguments as to the death toll numbers when no one knows the actual number."
Because people constantly cite the Lancet numbers as "fact". There have even been whole articles posted about it here.
I agree that it is importnat to all who have lost a loved one, even if only one had died for nothing but power and greed. It would not surprise me one bit if the death toll has already exceeded a million and then add in the "DU" we have spread all over thier country the death toll will very likely eventually exceed several million.
I just didn't understand all of the many arguments as to the death toll numbers when no one knows the actual number.
"Would one death be alright JAKE?"
The death of any innocent is never "alright". But the total numbers do matter.
Would one death be alright JAKE?
"well raw data is never published."
True, but it is typically made available on request, else they appear to be hiding something.
"the study technique,as many statisticians have called it - was robust and time tested and the accepted technique for doing such studies."
No one says it's not. The question is with the implementation. You already know this yet you repeat the tired refrain that the methodology is sound.
"the military does not count opposition deaths - they almost always do!if posible.unless the rsults will be embarrasing. "
I would love to hear your best examples.
keith,
everyone of the points raised by jake as anserwed by you had been answered in an earlier discussion (>250 responses) on CD in march.do not waste your time in trying to convince him.
this included the questions:
why not make available raw data? well raw data is never published.the publication was quite extensive. if the publisher /peer review doubts the data, they request it. maybe jake can request the 12000 individual questionnaires
how come so many deaths were unrecorded? it is certainly comfortable to critique from his armchair rather than the warzone. if we remember, the much maligned un has quoted 4 miilion refugees/ 17 million non kurdish iraqis.you could not step out/ go the market/ go to school/ or even stay in - without fear of death/ abdcution/ mutilation. to report a death in a village- you would need to take the body to a hospital 20 miles away to get a certificate - at the risk of many lives and expense - and the risk of being shot by the authorities in command- when it would be far simpler to bury the victim yourself.why, they could simply hold you responsible for being related to the always "guilty" dead victim - innocent guys are hardly killed by the "smart" war - guilty by association.is not that the position on salim hamdan?
no doubt jake report a death "officially" in these circumstances - stickler that he is for decorum and procedure.
the study technique,as many statisticians have called it - was robust and time tested and the accepted technique for doing such studies.
the military does not count opposition deaths - they almost always do!if posible.unless the rsults will be embarrasing. they have to to estimate the remaining enemy strength.see how precise are the numbers that emanate from the coalition the same day in bombings in afghanistan.(the afghan govt numbers are different)the romans counted the carthaginian death/ the greeks the persian/ the americans and the british of the japanese in SE asia/ the americans of the vietnamese.
the study is good enough for the british govt a - no doubt neutral observers in this war -and the many public health staisticians you quoted- but not good enough for jake.
also, do not call it a lancet study - it was a johns hopkins study - the flagship university public health dept in the us.
so - do not engage in discusion - it is a waste of your time.
"It was a much larger study."
Certainly, but with serious questions still.
Kem, Right. If we invaded and occupied Iraq without causing one single scratch, it would still be wrong. A violation of every treaty we have ever signed. You cannot take any part of the world you choose based on 935 lies. Just look at how we are yelling at Russia's actions in Georgia now for an example.
Jake Newton says "We already know that the second study more or less extrapolated the numbers higher based on more time going by. That's not the issue. The Slate piece could apply to the later study as well."
FALSE. It was a much larger study.
If only ONE innocent Iraqi child was killed by our invasion of Iraq for the purpose of control of their oil, or the threat that Saddam was going to revert to Euros instead of the Dollar, it is both a tragic shame and and a crime that Bush ordered it. ___ Who are we, GOD?
The invasion of Iraq was not done becaue of 9-11, or because Osama bin Laden was in Iraq or affiliated with Saddam. It was OIL and every honest person knows that is true. Tenent committed the crime of the century by altering the NIE report and every honest person knows that Tenet is guilty of that horrific crime. It is not just ONE innocent child who has been killed, We will never konw how many. Any attempt to count the numbers of bodies is irrevelant.
"There has not been a better study done of Iraqi deaths– "
Opinion.
There was one published in The New ENgland Journal of Medicine. I am sure it has problems too but it's findins were arouns 1/10th of Lancet.
"Unless our military has done one and is keeping quiet about it."
I have never heard in all of history of militarys doing studies on civilian deaths.
"How Are So Many Fatalities Possible"
Yes I saw that already. Lancet should forget about telling us how it might be possible and instead convince us that there are no problems associated with their study.
"The figures SnowWolf cites are from the earlier smaller study. He won't mention the larger 2006 study. Why not?"
We already know that the second study more or less extrapolated the numbers higher based on more time going by. That's not the issue. The Slate piece could apply to the later study as well.
" really hate someone using "LOL" when we are talking about the needless, counter-productive, slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children."
*I* was talking about *you*.
The CIA killed RFK and JFK.
Check out the new evidence on the RFK assassination provided by Shane O'Sullivan, broadcast on the BBC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0eh0hRlfCU&feature=related.
In Jan 2003, an adviser told Bush that the invasion could result in a civil war between the Shia and Sunni. Bush responded: "I thought they were all Muslim".
Conservatives keep saying the people were worse off under Saddam, but these figures of hundreds of thousands dead are the increase in deaths over the same length of time under Saddam. Plus there are 4.5 million refugees. That means about 20% of the population is either dead or refugees. And conservatives say they are better off!
There has not been a better study done of Iraqi deaths-- Unless our military has done one and is keeping quiet about it. The figures SnowWolf cites are from the earlier smaller study. He won't mention the larger 2006 study. Why not?
Once again:
http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/reports/human-cost-war-101106.pdf
page 22 is "How Are So Many Fatalities Possible"
I really hate someone using "LOL" when we are talking about the needless, counter-productive, slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children.
my speeling and tiping sux to-nite...fourgiv me...*s*
again I'll point out that the United Nations puts the number of Civilian Deaths at roughly 60,000 (which is still an awful lot...don't get me wrong). However most of those deaths have been at the hands of the same people we are fighting there...its what turned the people away from Al Queda and toward the Americans and brought about the current relative calm
The problem with the Lancet Study (with link)
http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/
"The authors of a peer-reviewed study, conducted by a survey team from Johns Hopkins University, claim that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war. Yet a close look at the actual study, published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet, reveals that this number is so loose as to be meaningless.
The report's authors derive this figure by estimating how many Iraqis died in a 14-month period before the U.S. invasion, conducting surveys on how many died in a similar period after the invasion began (more on those surveys later), and subtracting the difference. That difference�the number of "extra" deaths in the post-invasion period�signifies the war's toll. That number is 98,000. But read the passage that cites the calculation more fully:
We estimate there were 98,000 extra deaths (95% CI 8000-194 000) during the post-war period.
Readers who are accustomed to perusing statistical documents know what the set of numbers in the parentheses means. For the other 99.9 percent of you, I'll spell it out in plain English�which, disturbingly, the study never does. It means that the authors are 95 percent confident that the war-caused deaths totaled some number between 8,000 and 194,000. (The number cited in plain language�98,000�is roughly at the halfway point in this absurdly vast range.)
This isn't an estimate. It's a dart board.
Imagine reading a poll reporting that George W. Bush will win somewhere between 4 percent and 96 percent of the votes in this Tuesday's election. You would say that this is a useless poll and that something must have gone terribly wrong with the sampling. The same is true of the Lancet article: It's a useless study; something went terribly wrong with the sampling."
"It's always such a "joy" to battle a apparently forthright ( but really twisted ) adversary "
I'm sorry, you are not in fact battling me. The questions I put forth regarding problems with the Lancet study have not been answered by you either. Are you going to do so or not?
NO, it doesn't have any problems. The British Defense Minister called it "sound and robust". It's methodology has been used for a long time for such as the Rwanda genocide and the Indonesian tsunami. It's methodology has never been questioned before. Their people were going door-to-door in Iraq and saw a death certificate in 95% of the deaths cited.
Johns Hopkins School of Public Health and the Lancet are not funded by George Soros. You two ignoramuses should read more. And I don't mean NY Post.
There were weapons inspectors there in late 2002 and early 2003 who could find NOTHING. Which part of NOTHING can you not understand? Know who did have massive amounts of WMD in March 2003? The US had 24,000 TONS of Sarin, VX, and mustard agents. Anniston, Alabama had 77,000 rockets filled with these agents. We also had biological and nukes, of course.
"The Lancet study was totally debunked over two years ago…"
Just to be fair I would say that it "has problems".
meant to say inter-violence...(Fat finger)
Keith
The U.N. says the number of Iraqi's killed in the conflict is about 60,000...most of them killed by AQI and other Sunni/Shia ibter-violence
The Lancet study was totally debunked over two years ago...get out more
Nobody wants to tell me why Bush isn't being Impeached?...
Pity...I was hoping for enlightenment
"the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy"
fixed- fastened, attached, or placed so as to be firm and not readily movable; firmly implanted; stationary; rigid.
2. rendered stable or permanent, as color.
3. set or intent upon something; steadily directed: a fixed stare.
4. definitely and permanently placed: a fixed buoy; a fixed line of defense.
5. not fluctuating or varying; definite: a fixed purpose.
6. supplied with or having enough of something necessary or wanted, as money.
7. coming each year on the same calendar date: Christmas is a fixed holiday, but Easter is not.
8. put in order.
9. Informal. arranged in advance privately or dishonestly: a fixed horse race.
10. Chemistry. a. (of an element) taken into a compound from its free state.
b. nonvolatile, or not easily volatilized: a fixed oil.
11. Mathematics. (of a point) mapped to itself by a given function.
Fixed can mean a lot of things...theres no there there...
"The case is being FIXED FOR war.""
That isn't the quote
"To me the exposure of the Downing St Memo was the big enchilada, specifically the phrase among insiders that, "The case is being FIXED FOR war.""
What did you think of this phrase in the same document:
"For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary."
Why the concern that Saddam would use his WMD if they "knew" he didn't have any?
No comments yet?
"NO, it doesn't have any problems."
You are ignorant, start with Wikipedia and go from there. I'm glad to help you: Half of their funding came from a George Soros group. They never made available their raw data or formulas so no one was ever able to duplicate their results. They say they confirmed most deaths by certificates yet no where near as many certificates were issued as would have to have been to support the findings. The expected number of wounded that would accompany such a large mortality are no where to be found. Those are just for starters.
"The IraqBodyCount has a serious problem in that it requires two Western media sources for each death cited."
And it's numbers are probably low because of it, they admit as much.
jakenewton August 11th, 2008 1:23 pm
"The Lancet study has a number of problems and it's findings should not be taken as fact."
NO, it doesn't have any problems. The British Defense Minister called it "sound and robust". It's methodology has been used for a long time for such as the Rwanda genocide and the Indonesian tsunami. It's methodology has never been questioned before. Their people were going door-to-door in Iraq and saw a death certificate in 95% of the deaths cited.
The IraqBodyCount has a serious problem in that it requires two Western media sources for each death cited. Pretty impossible when it was too dangerous to even leave the Green Zone.
I also hate it when the 2004 election exit polls are dismissed by the words "it had flaws". People who say that are supposedly referring to the "shy Republicans" theory that is proven wrong by the evidence. The opposite is slightly true. Kerry won by three million.
SnowWolf says: "I know that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 (surprising the amuint of people who do…skeery)"
No, it's not surprising considering that the Bush administration implied it hundreds of times. They would constantly say 9/11 in the first sentence and Iraq in the second sentence of any talk. They would forge documents to say Atta trained in Iraq. They constantly put forth the bogus Atta meeting in Prague with Iraqi officials. They said Iraq would give nukes to al Qaeda. Richard Clarke and others were ordered by the White House to blame Iraq for 9/11. Al Qaeda was supposed to be in the bogus 'shack in the north'. Fox News was constantly implying the Iraq-9/11 connection. In a 2006 survey of our troops in Iraq, 70% thought Iraq was at least partially responsible for 9/11.
oh...probably like a stroll through Detroit or Chicago...*s*
Snow Wolf
"I have been drug free since New Years Eve 1982…pretty good huh?"
I don't believe you stopped soon enough. Lots of those
brain cells you fried weren't replaced.
Oh, have a good vacation in the peaceful city of
Baghdad. Maybe John McSame would like to join you on
your trip. He also thinks it's like a Sunday afternoon
stroll in Anytown USA.
KEM PATRICK
Found an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal you might be interested in
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120761972863897011.html?mod=opinion_journal_books
In October 2002, a memorandum outlining the worst-case scenarios for postwar Iraq was circulated among the top members of the Bush administration. Among its 30 or so warnings were the following:
• "US could fail to find WMD on the ground."
• "Post-Saddam stabilization and reconstruction efforts by the United States could take not two to four years, but eight to ten years."
• "The United States could become so absorbed in its Iraq effort that we pay inadequate attention to other serious problems -- including other proliferation and terrorism problems."
• "Syria and Iran could help our enemies in Iraq. . . . Iraq could experience ethnic strife among Kurds, Sunnis, and Shia."
The provenance of this remarkable memo? If you guessed the State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency or anyone else who today might claim to have been unhappy with the administration's drift toward war, you guessed wrong. Rather, the memo was the handiwork of former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who drafted it with the assistance of his key military and civilian advisers. One of them, former Undersecretary for Policy Douglas J. Feith, has now given us "War and Decision," the best account to date of how the administration debated, decided, organized and executed its military responses to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
Much of what makes "War and Decision" so compelling is that it is, in effect, a revisionist history, never mind that Mr. Feith was at or near the center of the decade's most important foreign-policy decisions. So far, most of the books written on the subject -- from Bob Woodward's "State of Denial" to Tom Ricks's "Fiasco" -- have painted a picture of an incompetent and paranoid administration fixated on all the wrong enemies for all the wrong reasons. These books, in turn, have sometimes relied heavily on a series of self-serving leaks, distortions and outright fabrications, many of them emanating from the administration's internal opponents, particularly at the State Department and the CIA.
Mr. Feith's book does not lack for criticism of how the administration handled itself or even, at times, of how he handled himself. But as the memo cited above illustrates, most of the received wisdom about the dynamics of the first Bush term -- pitting "warmongering neocons" and democracy fantasists such as Mr. Feith against more sober-minded realists such as then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and his deputy, Richard Armitage -- is bunk, and demonstrably so.
Consider the notion that Mr. Rumsfeld was the author of the administration's policies on terrorist detainees. On the contrary, writes Mr. Feith, the secretary warned against turning the U.S. military into "the world's jailer," deliberately limited the holding capacity of prison facilities at Guantanamo, defended the application of the Geneva Convention for Taliban detainees and argued that the U.S. "should not be holding anyone we did not absolutely need to hold."
Or take the idea that administration neocons dismissed the work of the "Future of Iraq" project and the advice it allegedly offered for rebuilding Iraq. In fact, the head of that project, exiled Iraqi scholar Kanan Makiya, was himself something of a neocon favorite, and the project consisted mainly of conceptual discussions of everything from democratization to judicial reform -- everything, that is, except a meaningful blueprint for what to do on the proverbial Day After. By contrast, Mr. Feith and his staff did devise a plan for transitioning to a new Iraqi-led government, but the plan was swiftly set aside by U.S. proconsul L. Paul Bremer.
Equally bogus is the idea that the neocons pushed the case for war as part of a utopian scheme to "impose democracy." In fact, a White House memo from October 2002 shows that democracy ranked last on an eight-point list of U.S. goals for Iraq, and even there the modest objective was to "[encourage] the building of democratic institutions." By contrast, the primary goals were, first, an Iraq that "does not threaten its neighbors" and, second, one that "renounces support for, and sponsorship of, international terrorism." The WMD issue ranked fourth.
Finally, there is the myth that administration officials such as Vice President Dick Cheney and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz cherry-picked and "politicized" intelligence to build their case for war -- a myth that persists despite two bipartisan commissions concluding that nothing of the sort happened.
What is true is that intelligence was often politicized internally, mainly by CIA bureaucrats with their own policy axes to grind. One such policy ax, widely shared at the State Department, was that exiled Iraqi leaders (known as "externals") had no credibility with the "internals" -- Iraqis on the inside. This notion, which seems to have been motivated mainly by an institutional loathing of exiled Iraqi leader Ahmed Chalabi, was finally debunked when Iraqis elected a government that consisted mainly of so-called externals, including Mr. Chalabi.
Before then, however, the mostly phony external/internal dichotomy persuaded the State Department to drag its heels on organizing Saddam's external opponents into a coherent political force that could quickly assume responsibility for Iraq once it was liberated. It also persuaded Mr. Armitage that a U.S. occupation lasting several years would be necessary to cultivate suitable "internal" leaders with the right democratic credentials. Mr. Feith, by contrast, thinks that "maintaining an occupation government for over a year" was the administration's "chief mistake" in Iraq -- an odd remark if you believe Mr. Feith and his ilk were hell-bent on imposing American-style democracy on the recalcitrant natives.
"War and Decision" offers many more such examples where perceptions of the administration's conduct collide with the reality of it. Much to Mr. Feith's credit, however, his book is no apologia, even for those he obviously admires. Of Mr. Rumsfeld, he notes that "his style of leadership did not always serve his own purposes: He bruised people and made personal enemies." As for President Bush, Mr. Feith argues -- rightly, in my view -- that his problem was not that he "discouraged challenges" but rather that he showed "an excessive tolerance of indiscipline, even of disloyalty, from his own officials."
Would the U.S. have been better off never undertaking to remove Saddam from power? Certainly not, though one is left with the impression that the forces of bureaucratic inertia and ideological resistance within the U.S. government posed nearly as great an obstacle to the administration's planning as Saddam himself. More important, Mr. Feith understands that "policy making often involves choosing to accept one set of likely problems over another." That's not an insight that will sway public opinion about the war, but it is indispensable to understanding both the choices already made and those that lie ahead, for this administration as well as the next
I'd be interested in your analysis of the premise of that
I have no problem using them to keep us free...but generally (if your Government is sane) just possessing them is enough of a deterrent
note that I said sane government ...that would exclude Iran, North Korea and probably Syria...although I wouldn't really call Syria insane...just state sponsors of terrorism
I hope Bush and the Israelis go in and free The Russians and The Chinese next. You need study no more profitable place than Israel to understand where freedom's torch shines most brightly. Moral pygmies, deceit and fiction reign supreme still it appears. Coleen asks about where the terrorists are? Naive in the extreme me feels. This is a Jewish State, ethnic problems being resolved since its institutional settings and used as a base for international terrorism on a scale not envisaged for decades. Ethnic cleansing and terror are its foundations as it was for the Americas, particularly for The U.S. The same leaders are empowered in both entities and are more securely entrenched again in the western world or in disguised international bodies.
They exist on fear, deception, corruption and racism tied to power and money. Populations smell something is badly amiss and as time goes by the truth is only beginning to emerge from the fiction. This is evil and this is what actually will enslave us all including any Jews who step out of line. Remember the Bolshiviks and remember the Palestinians. The 'untermenchen'and the Nazis. The Blacks and American Indians, the Tibetans and the Chechnians, the Australian continent's aborigenes and the Chinese and Russian peasants the Gypsies and the Burmese, the history of horrors in Haiti and Angola, in Algeria and in the Congo, in South America and in South eastern Asia? Apartheid was as mild an occurrence as is Israel's contribution to world peace, the rule of law and human rights. It is the opposite of what it appears. It is guardedly protected (by those who should know better)in the same way as it wasn't an invasion of Vietnam; it was a war and that though it didn't work out too well the intentions were good and understandable even if not all was strictly 'by the book' so to speak?
There can be no room whatsoever any more for a semblance of equivocation in this regard Colleen. Jews must oppose The Jewish State. Nothing less is acceptable and the same goes for everyone else who wants to live in freedom. There is an enormous disparity in the numbers and positions of jews within elite circles compared with any other grouping that can not be rationally accounted for. Enormous numbers of influential American Jewish leaders support Israel. it is off the scale in representation in tall buildings and high offices and places where money and information, resources and foreign policy is tightly controlled. It engages all branches of government in 'the western world'. It goes against the grain of populations and representative democracy particularly in The European Union and beyond. Turkey is a case in point as is understandably Lebanon to name just two of very many.
And SnowWolf,
I'm just wondering with all our options on the table including pre-emptive nuclear strikes whether or not we should indeed strike first while the iron is hot? Surely, plans have been developed and finely tuned to achieve victory for freedom whatever the price? We simply require the resolve and a man like John MacCain to lead us forward.
It's well nigh showdown time and as we are the biggest and the best we should win easily enough? It may not be pretty but its a price some feel is worth paying. I'll take their word for that. Opinions welcome!
We have a nephew who had been drug free for the past 30 years, he has long conversations and even violent arguments with his refrigerator when the door is opened.
Many years ago at MIDRATS aboard ship I saw a young gentleman carry on a conversation with a roast beef sandwich...often wondered what that was all about...*S*
Hey
We have a lot of fun with this banter back and forth...and truly I enjoy it...
but honestly...sincerely...I would like to hear (all) your opinions on why you think it is...if the evidence is so clear cut that Bush did all what you are saying he did...then why (pray tell) is he NOT being impeached?..one would think it would be Congress' DUTY to do so...yet they do not...why do you think that is?
and please...I don't want to hear nonsense like "Pelosi is being blackmailed"...Madame Speaker is thoroughly incompetent...but I do not believe she is corrupt...at least I've not seen or heard any evidence that she is
so please...enlighten me...assume I'm stoopid (half of you already do)
We have a nephew who had been drug free for the past 30 years, he has long conversations and even violent arguments with his refrigerator when the door is opened.
KEM PATRICK
Well Brain Cells are never replaced...yes?
Two things the MSM doesn't want seem to want to cover...the John Edwards affair and the War is over in Iraq
Not good enough obviously.
it isn't Hubris...
I just see the World differently than you do I guess
Snow Wolf,
What kind of mind-altering sustance are you on and where can I get some?
I have been drug free since New Years Eve 1982...pretty good huh?
I agree with the assessment on people like SnowWolf who readily advocate the illegal and misguided US foreign policy since WWII. I'm afraid that until the US is on the receiving end of what we've been dishing out (9/11 was just a drop in the bucket) then people like SnowWolf will continue toting American hubris. The only question is will civilization survive these cultural attitudes.
Snow Wolf,
What kind of mind-altering sustance are you on and where can I get some?
"the number of deaths is 1.2 million higher "
The Lancet study has a number of problems and it's findings should not be taken as fact.
in response to the tired excuse that all other intelligence agencies also got the intelligence wrong-
-the other agencies do not spend 50 billion plus a year - the us does and its intelligence should be better
-the state dept intelligence- a branch of the govt- did not get it wrong.
-what does "all other agencies" mean? this cant just mean britain and israel.from their erroneous conclusions- we know these agencies had no meaningful assets in iraq - even if they would not acknowledge this in public, they atleast had to admit this in their mutual dealings. did the us get in touch with iranian intelligence, which then had offered to help- and which surely had significant assets in iraq.
-finally, this argument of wmd capability requires suspension of common sense- can one build a signifiacnt nuclear/chemical/biological capability in the face of 24/7 overflight and electronic monitoring? in a mainly desert country. even if this is underground, the excavation would show up on satellite images with a 1 foot resolution.
Good grief ~SMOWWOLF~ "we couldn't take the chance"????? Who are __ WE __ to use our military might and utterly destroy another country because we couldn't take a chance? A chance of what? ___ I fear that person may harm me someday, so I'm going to obliterate her or him.
I don't believe you are a bad person either, quite the contrary, but you certainly are being horribly obtuse on this issue. So two CIA operatives now deny they did or said such and such, there is ample evidence that Tenet did alter the NIE report and that is perhaps the ultimate crime of the last two centuries.
I'd politely suggest, that you seriously consider what ~Keith~ posted here at 6:27am about all of the other facts that prove Bush was fully aware that Saddam was not any threat to us at that time and the need to invade because "we couldn't take a chance" is not a valid argument. It is not even sensible, and you are damaging your credibily to keep arguing it. It is not easy to admit when we are wrong is it? ___ Being human and all.
It must be recaalled that "regime change" was Clinton/Gore policy, thus DLC/DNC policy, which means official Pelosi policy, which is 100% why she is so compromised; in essence, she "blackmailed" herself. It Must be recalled that Bush/Cheney merely escalated an already ongoing Holocaust and War through economic sanctions that was Clinton/Gore policy. That Tenet lied is unremarkable; it was policy to lie, and almost always is.
Empire expansion and the wars that make such possible is the policy of the US government, and has been for over 150 years. Understand that fact, and US government behavior becomes very easy to read.
"To me the exposure of the Downing St Memo was the big enchilada, specifically the phrase among insiders that, "The case is being FIXED FOR war.""
What did you think of this phrase in the same document:
"For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary."
Why the concern that Saddam would use his WMD if they "knew" he didn't have any?
From The Guardian Oct 12, 2006:
The results speak for themselves. There was a sample of 12,801 individuals in 1,849 households, in 47 geographical locations. That is a big sample, not a small one.
And the results were shocking. In the 18 months before the invasion, the sample reported 82 deaths, two of them from violence. In the 39 months since the invasion, the sample households had seen 547 deaths, 300 of them from violence. The death rate expressed as deaths per 1,000 per year had gone up from 5.5 to 13.3.
Talk of confidence intervals becomes frankly irrelevant at this point. If you want to pick a figure for the precise number of excess deaths, then (1.33% - 0.55%) x 26,000,000 x 3.25 = 659,000 is as good as any, multiplying out the difference between the death rates by the population of Iraq and the time since the invasion.
That qualitative conclusion is this: things have got worse, and they have got a lot worse, not a little bit worse. Whatever detailed criticisms one might make of the methodology of the study (and I have searched assiduously for the last two years, with the assistance of a lot of partisans of the Iraq war who have tried to pick holes in the study, and not found any), the numbers are too big. If you go out and ask 12,000 people whether a family member has died and get reports of 300 deaths from violence, then that is not consistent with there being only 60,000 deaths from violence in a country of 26 million. It is not even nearly consistent.
.....in the 2006 study, death certificates were checked and found in 92% of cases.
Namaste, or whatever you wish to call yourself these days, I haven't made any specific claim regarding civilian deaths in Iraq, I have merely stated that the Lancet study indeed has problems and that it's findings should not be taken as fact. Ergo, there is no requirement for me to put up anything.
Keith, you still have a bunch of questions to answer.
Sometimes...War is the Answer...
(thats just because I'm a smartass)
Actually...I don't feel I'm ill informed...I know that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 (surprising the amuint of people who do...skeery)
I just told you why we invaded Iraq and its a very rational reason...we just couldn't take the chance...
I don't want you Guys to get all built up (over Suskinds' book) just to have your hopes dashed once again...what do they call that? Freudenschade?
COLLEEN: On the rhetorical question, is THIS America... I recall about 10 years ago helping a friend relocate from the Florida Keys to Miami. There she met an elderly woman who had the numbers branded onto her wrist, remnant of her stay at a concentration camp in Germany. The woman said to my friend chillingly (back then), "Don't think IT can't happen here."
Others have shared the quote pertaining to HOW fascism would creep up into America hiding behind the flag and cheerful jingoistic chants.
"Habbush explained to the British official that Saddam tried to maintain the impression that he did have such weapons in order to impress Iran."
Remember how--prior to the invasion--congressmen kept posing the question: "Why would Saddam try to frustrate weapons inspectors unless he had something to hide?" The obvious answer was, of course, Iran. It's amazing that this possibility never seemed to have been considered by the CIA. So,it might be time to disband this worthless organization.
COLLEEN: By the way, the KRUGMAN quote in my view is a totally substantiation of that which I term MARS rules... this glorification of the muscular force, that war and warriors deserve special status in a society, is all about homage to the principle of destruction, a/k/a Mars.
COLLEEN: You are a natural diplomat! Bravo! I woul add that the Iraqi war had a number of causes, oil being central; but so too is the expansion of US empire, adding more military tentacles, and the need to defend the DOLLAR as basis for oil-trade.
KEITH: Excellent post!
KEM: Excellent post!
RICH M: As usual, unimpeachable reasoning. Gracias.
Keith is exactly right (6:27 am) that 'SnowWolf' is "everything ...ugly about America all boiled down into one narrow-minded person." And it's not merely a question of being ill-informed -- he's willfully & proudly an ignoramus. To see this, one need look no further than his claim (3:57 pm) that "Iraq is a Democracy…the surge worked," etc.
-------------
colleen (9:29 am) asks, "...why are Americans so poorly informed. Is it something about them ..that they refuse to learn? or the news media."
- This is not exactly a mystery, you know. Most Americans are ignorant fools because their entire culture subjects them to intensive brainwashing from the moment they begin to understand language. They grow up thinking they live in a country that has a God-given right to invade any part of the world, or to overthrow any foreign government & install its own puppet regime; all the while imagining that the action has noble & pure motivations like "nurturing democracy, fighting for freedom," etc. The media & the entire educational system inculcate these delusions. The result is a population of delusional nationalist pigs like SnowWolf.
Mik and purvis,
Here's a better solution. HEMP. It can replace fossil fuels 100% and can be grown anywhere on the planet regardless of the temperature.
Keith August
Thats a good summary.
I don't think Snow Wolf is a bad person..but like most Americans he is ill informed and has been encouraged within the American culture to think in terms of war as a solution.
It helps me to remember all the points you have made in your summary...for future conversations with people like Snow Wolf.
If Americans were well prepared to be a world leader they would be able to give some form of all the points of view about how to deal with leaders like Saddam Hussein..but they are very poorly informed by comparison to the people in other nations.
The next question is why are Americans so poorly informed. Is it something about them ..that they refuse to learn? or the news media..that is controlled and filtering news or is the news media pandering to Americans lack of interest?
It is amazing how little so many Americans know about the world and how quickly they come to easy solutions that involve little thought....and how certain they are that they are right.
There was a good reason for NOT overthrowing Saddam in 91. He was a buffer against the Islamic fundamentalists. He was strongly supressing them and the Shia who had links to Iran. Remove him and Iran's influence stretches all across Iraq to the borders of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Syria. He was the sworn enemy of bin Laden who called him a "secular hedonist" and was angry the US would not let them fight against Saddam in '91.
SnowWolf, You are everything that is Ugly about America all boiled down into one narrow-minded person. We had weapons experts on the ground in Iraq saying they had looked everywhere they could think of and could find NOTHING. They begged the White House to tell them where to look if they were so sure Iraq had WMD. The WH ordered them out and began the illegal invasion.
Wilson had reported to Cheney's office eleven months before the Jan 03 SOTU that the Niger Document was false and a poor forgery. The story about the aluminum tubes was also known to be false 11 months before the SOTU. Curveball was also known to be lying before Powell's speech at the UN mostly based on him. The 'meeting in Prague' was a lie. 'Atta training in Iraq' was a forgery. The 'drones' were a lie. The 'shack in the north' was a lie. The 500 tons, 32,000 liters and 28,000 liters of WMD were lies. The mobile weapons lab was a lie. The 'ready to launch in 45 minutes' was a lie. There were 935 RECORDED *&^%$#@ lies.
You don't care. You just enjoy killing people and playing pretend soldier. Don't tell me the Iraqis are better off now than under Saddam, because the number of deaths is 1.2 million higher after the illegal invasion than the same time period under Saddam. Plus 4,138 of our own---at a cost of $3 TRILLION (Stiglitz & Bilmes)----making us LESS SAFE according to our 16 intelligence agencies.
There are 4.5 million Iraqis refugees and one in eight Iraqi children now die before the age of five. One in four in Afghanistan. You probably don't care about them, either. The US (under Reagan and GHW Bush) built up Saddam and bin Laden.
KEM PATRICK
you are right about Bush the elder not removing Saddam back in '91...I never agreed with stopping the way he did
KEM PATRICK
I know that is what Suskind is saying however two sources he quotes in his book are already denying they said that
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26050915/
Two former CIA officers denied that they or the spy agency faked an Iraqi intelligence document, as they are quoted as saying in Suskind's book "The Way of the World," published Tuesday. "I never received direction from George Tenet (CIA director at the time) or anyone else in my chain of command to fabricate a document … as outlined in Mr. Suskind's book," said Robert Richer, the CIA's former deputy director of clandestine operations.
Purvis
He and his Brothers over there only want to kill those who would do us harm, we live under the umbrella of their protection...so don't denigrate them...thankfully we have them
What is the fuss here? We are letting the Bush administration make the false statement that WMD by Iraq were dangerous. As was known at the time, all of the Mid-Eastern countries had weapons of mass destruction. Even if Iraq had them--sos what?
Speaking of getting off fossil fuel:
check this out
http://cc.pubco.net/www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html
Thanks to AllTogetherNow
Hi ~Snow Wolf~ I was saying that your assumption that Tenent had not altered the NIE report is wrong. ___ He did alter it.
What Saddam may or may not have done if and after Hans Bliss had been allowed to finish his work is a guess. Saddam was a brutal, paranoid murdering dictator and he's not hanging around anymore.
What Bush/Cheney have done if far worse than anything Saddam ever did and remember Saddam was once our buddy and it was us who supplied him with poison gas to use on the the Iranians and the Kurds.
When Bush Sr. had Saddam run out of Kuwait, was the opportuity to get rid of Saddam and it would have been easy. Saddam could have been run down then and arrested for setting those hundreds of oil wells afire and polluting the atmosphere. That was a crime against humanity and the Earth.
But this crap of Bush Jr. invading Iraq, literally destroying a country, killing over a million, forcing another four million to flee, polluting the entire land with radio-active DU and building that monstrosity of an embassy, hiring Blackwater, ruining our economy in the process, etc, and all for control of oil is pure unadulerated, criminal bullshit.
The last 4 wars were fought over Oil. WW 1,2, Vietnam,Iraq1 and 2, Oil oil Oil.
How can we take back the power, Real simple, find a source of energy better than Fossil Fuel. Then give it to the masses cheaper than the oil barons can. The best way to take the power out of the tyrants hands is stop spending money on the crap they are selling. Take away their funding and you take away their power. The current advances in Alternative Energy will usher in the new clean era of Solar Energy. It's the dawning of a new age. The power in the hands of these evil corrupt scoundrels will short lived at best.
you all should be thankful that the govt allows you to have this FREE SPEECH ZONE known as CommonDreams. you can whine and complain all you want here. just dont think you can get into the streets to actually do something to take back your shitty country. you kids are very odd.
and very screwed and don't even know it.
the bad guys won and there will not be any going back.
rumiluv
Scientists are intelligent people who will follow this story and many will understand how poor the evidence was and how ordinary police procedure was not followed in a very important case.
What were they thinking? That they can continue to fool people with all these lies? Conspiracy theories flourish in this kind of environment. The US needs a though cleaning out of corruption in the government.
Some posters here at Commondreams blame the Dems too..but this thing is vicious..these people in our government will kill and cover up..and the news media is corrupted. Anyone following all this has got to be worried.
Anthrax made by our government was weaponized and used against American liberals at the time that the Patriot Act was being considered. Washington DC was shut down and people were very fearful.
Now many years later they have created a persona for a scientist that does not fit with his life story..and the man is hounded and commits suicide.
This is like a novel except this is true and its our government..The news media is concentrating on another minor sex scandal to divert attention from serious allegations about the CIA and lying to Americans to promote a war.
Its hard to believe this is America.
On the subject of the CIA, just read chapter 52 of William Blum's book Killing Hope.
Snow Wolf
Well, I guess you're on the next flight to Baghdad. A little family reunion perhaps. Send me a postcard from the Baghdad Hilton. And please, no flack jackets, helmets, hundreds of bodyguards, and attack helicopters overhead. Buy all those bikini babes at the Tigris Club a vodka Surge on me. It really gets the job done! And tell your son not to worry. There are all kinds of people in the world he can kill.
Foolish people still believe that the citizen has any meaningful place in the political operation of this government.
The CIA could have never have been trusted, nor the military.
Our free government never was and never will be.
Oops ..
Suskind Revisited
Posted on August 7th, 2008 by Philip Giraldi
"An extremely reliable and well placed source in the intelligence community has informed me that Ron Suskind's revelation that the White House ordered the preparation of a forged letter linking Saddam Hussein to al-Qaeda and also to attempts made to obtain yellowcake uranium is correct but that a number of details are wrong."
...
"The Suskind account states that two senior CIA officers Robert Richer and John Maguire supervised the preparation of the document under direct orders coming from Director George Tenet. Not so, says my source."
...
"My source also notes that Dick Cheney, who was behind the forgery, hated and mistrusted the Agency and would not have used it for such a sensitive assignment. Instead, he went to Doug Feith's Office of Special Plans and asked them to do the job."
http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2008/08/07/suskind-revisited/
Colleen, regarding the CIA being behind the anthrax murders with orders from the vice president's office, I would not be surprised. The John Kennedy assassination is the template for other assassinations and assorted tomfoolery.
JFK and the Unspeakable by James W. Douglas is a must-read to understand the formula for the creation of a patsy; and, the most perfect patsy is one who is dead!
Another template is the use of a manchurian candidate as a patsy or assassin, as in the RFK assassination.
"Betrayed The CIA?" Betrayed the betrayors?
A. Kem thinks Pelosi is blackmailed.
B. Anybody think Wellstone's plane had help going down?
For Dead certain.
And if B, very likely A.
Same goals accomplished (motive) Ability to do it (means) And Opportunity would have been easy; Pelosi has seven grandchildren. Remember Wellstone.
"the insistence that there are simple, brute-force, instant-gratification answers to every problem, and that there's something effeminate and weak about anyone who suggests otherwise — has become the core of Republican policy and political strategy. The party's de facto slogan has become: "Real men don't think things through."
Paul Krugman
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/08/opinion/08krugman.html
The terrorists are in the mountainous areas in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Thats where we should be..but other nations have tried to fight wars in that area and failed badly.
The ONLY way to win is to change the minds of people.
Dec. 1988 - Dow Chem. sold $ 1.5 million worth of (highly toxic) pesticide to Iraq.
When Saddam had WMDs it was because corporations, even American ones, sold the precursors to him.
KEM PATRICK...I do respect your opinions...you were awesome on the Hiroshima thread...
and I am not a partisan Republican...I am a Libertarian that believes in National Security...Unfortunately the Democrats are a National Security Joke
However I do stand on the assertion that had the sanctions been lifted Saddam would have gone into the WMD business again...The terrorists are no longer funneling foreign fighters into Iraq...they are headed for Afghanistan...I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how this plays out historically
Snow Wolf
Because someone is not tried for crimes does not mean innocence. If Bush gets away with his crimes against humanity it will be a dark stain on America and it will come out in the history books. The Bush family will be shamed by what their son has done for generations to come.
If you think pulling the Democrats into this mess makes it any better you are wrong. It only makes the US look worse to anyone viewing this travesty of justice that is ignoring the laws of the US..but you seem to only care about winning and you care apparently not one bit about the morality of what has happened.
Innocent people were picked up by your government and tortured...and you are supporting that. Some of them died.
9/11 changed America all right...and it was the reaction by the American people..the easy unquestioning acceptance of war, the acceptance of human rights violations and the loss of the Constitution...that made America less as a nation. People who support America hope it will turn around and "reinvent itself" We'll see if that will happen or not.
Imo you are a deeply immoral person..and you are so caught up in your desire to win you can not see what you have done..
You are a Republican partisan
And there are plenty of leaders as bad as Saddam. The only way to control this is within the UN and with weapons inspectors..because war will not end this proliferation of weapons. The US no longer has credibility. There is no longer a super power that has good intentions.
Now we are left with nations forming alliances to bring law and justice...and human rights.
Snow Wolf-Clinton and both Bush's helped murder a million Iraqis with incredibly evil sanctions. So, yes, Saddam in time might have wanted payback, but "Al Queada or Hezbellah" (sic), c'mon, you're showing your ignorance. Saddam was not stupid enough or interested in working with either of those groups.
~SNOWWOLF ~ Tenet briefed Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld with the then current annual NIE report and informed them that Saddam had NO WMDs and that Saddam had NOT purchased uranium from Africa as Bush had just publically announced he had. Remeber that Predisential newscast?
Bush ordered Tenet to alter the NIE report and Tenet obayed the order. A few days later, Colin Powell read the altered report to Congress and the UN to us on public televison. Powell was not aware the NIE report had been altered.
Then our Senate voted on Prop 114, based upon that altered NIE report and Bush's assurances that he would not attack Iraq, unlees it was a last resort and he would also allow Hans Bliss to continue the inspections ion Iraq and Bliss was given full cooperation from Saddam at that time. Bush go this senate vote, he lied and pulled Bliss out and the rest is bad history. You are wrong with your assumptions ~SnowWolf~.
Purvis
I get a couple of emails a week from my son who's in sector right outside of Sadr City...they are BORED...they want to go to Afghanistan
Iraq is over as a War
Tenet is an award winning war criminal. I would puke if Bu$h the inferior tried to give me a medal. I usually don't believe in guilt by association but war crimes and mass murderers are a different story.
SnowWolf
"Saddam is gone…Iraq is a Democracy…the surge worked….the war is all but over…"
Since you are an obvious troll, it's not even worth responding to your obvious nonsense. However, everyone should be aware that the number of violent deaths in Iraq (those reported, that is) is 600 a month. The U.S. doesn't report it's own casualties there at all anymore. And SnowWolf, I understand that that Iraq is encouraging tourism so, next time you want to take a walk through Baghdad, drop a line so I can watch your head get blown off in a satellite picture.
Well
All I can say is there is a wonderful little winery on whidbey island that makes a scrumptious Merlot http://www.whidbeyislandwinery.com/releases.htm ...anybody want to bet a bottle that Bush is not impeached?
Tenet has already denounced suskinds book as BS...and Tenet might be political but he wasn't appointed by Bush...he has no reason to take it in the shorts for him
I watched you all get worked up to a lather betting Rove was gonna be "Frog Marched" out of the White House (whatever that means)...and all along it was Armitage over at State with the big mouth...
Bush will leave in January at the end of his term...this book will fade from view...and the Democratic Leadership will give their customary...Curses...Foiled again
colleen August 10th, 2008 5:16 pm
The invasion of Iraq was for oil. If Iraq did not have oil it would not have been invaded. There were other reasons piled on but the underlying reason was the oil.
The invasion of Iraq was because the U.N. was about to lift the sanctions on Saddam and it was just a matter of time till he went back in business...he wasn't stoopid enough to use it on us himself but wouldn't have any qualms about slipping some out the back door to Al Queada or Hezbellah and letting some Suicide Schmuck deliver it
The Democrats are well aware of this...and in total agreement...which is why they rant and rave to give YOU a little red meat but in the end do nothing
Siouxrose
I think some right wing Jews are being played and will be made a scapegoat once again...by people who are probably real fascists.
The invasion of Iraq was for oil. If Iraq did not have oil it would not have been invaded. There were other reasons piled on but the underlying reason was the oil.
COLLEEN: Thank you! I am so tired of the few in this thread who blame EVERYTHING on "The Jews." Aggressive Israeli policy is NOT supported by everyone who is or was born Jewish! And Israel is NOT what's wagging the dog... it is A factor, not the ONLY factor. A lot of important thinkers in the progressive movement happen to be Jews, nor is Israel's own policies supported by all the Jews who reside there. Many of us strive for a world system that transcends these divisive labels, and hope to substitute HUMANE and just policies for ALL!
Porter: "Contradicting Tenet's claim that the British did not take the Habbush report seriously, MI6 director Dearlove told Suskind he had asked Prime Minister Tony Blair why he had not acted on the intelligence from Habbush."
And Blair replied...?
-30-