I just cruised by a couple of conservative sites that I keep an eye on to know what they are talking about and thinking.............. It's nothing like this. They are talking about defeating us in November and about policies and tactics...along with a few remarks about our stupidity of course and how we all hate America.

I am more convinced than ever that our friend from England is right and we shouuldn't be side tracked on non-current issues.

Pax

I mean, it isn't saying much for your character.

By not saying much, I mean it is not saying much about your character ~Verocity~. You have fooled many here, it may be time for you to change your name again.

I await the apologetics for these outrages from people who call themselves "liberals" here.

We always used to talk about the cruise-missile left - those who supported every military adventure Clinton went into, but I never thought there was a Little Boy/Fat Man left.

As I stated before, this remains and will always be a war crime and a crime against humanity. The drop of said bombs on cities can not be justified.

A nation can not justify it because it will save the troops of their own country. The whole reason WMDS in the form of posion gas were used in the first place were to "save ones own troops" in the trenches of WW1.

Lets save troops by not waging wars.

Nor can it be justified because "In the long run it means less dead Civilians". If we must kill civilians by the hundreds of thousands to wage war, then it is time we thought about ending WAR as a political tool completely rather then using the logical fallacy of killing people to save them.

I have debated this in the other two articles on this to no end.

It was not justified. It is not a case of who dropped the bombs, it simply a case of the action itself being wrong at every level.

pk

I believe it is absolutely wonderful that the Japanese now desire that ALL nuclear weapons are forever banished. I hope that happens also. ____ E=Mc2 was by far, the worst mathanatical error humanity ever made.

It is a shame that the Japanese AND the Germans, didn't have these desires in 1936 thru 1941. If they had, the Manhattan project may have never happened.

You see, what the vast majority are totally unaware of, is Japan began their nuclear WEAPONS program, long before we did. The man who headed their program, was a close associate of Albert Einstein and his assistant was a Nobel Prize winning nuclear physicist.

They purchased a clyclatron from the Univeristy of California, Berkely, in 1938, which raised the red flags with Einstein and Roosevelt and the Manhatten project resulted. The Genie was loosed from the bottle. Reference? Here is one of many.

http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=2100

And the kicker was, Japan far more weapons grade uranium than we did in 1945 and Truman was aware of that disturbing fact. However, he had no way of knowing if Japan was prepared to use atomic weapons, explosive or dirty radiation bombs, on our troops or a possible invasion fleet. Truman could not afford to gamble that they did not. References? ___Here also is one of many.

http://www.ww2pacific.com/u-234.html

I understand where you are coming from ~GwNorth~, but with your opinion, any type of weapon that kills people could be considered a crime against humanity. I don't approve of wars or fighting either, but wars do occcur adn sometimes we or others do not initiate them and people do have the human right to defend themselves.

If the aggressor uses sticks and stones, the defender is justified to use sticks and stones in defense if debate and diplomacy is un-rewarded. Japan planned to use atomic weapons and they had the means to deliver them to our cities and Truman was well aware of those critical facts. References? Here's just one of many.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/japanese_submarine_I-400

Those three links I posted can be argued of course, if any disagree, let us hear any arguments. Personally, I'm very sorry atomic weapons were ever thought of in the first place and then used, but there were very valid reasons for Trumans decisions sad as it was. ___ We were not in his shoes.

>>I understand where you are coming from ~GwNorth~, but with your opinion, any type of weapon that kills people could be considered a crime against humanity. I don't approve of wars or fighting either, but wars do occcur adn sometimes we or other s do not initiate them and people do have the human right to defend themselves.

Kem if you and Thomas More and Snowolf want to pick up your guns and go and kill some named Schmidt, or Lee Wong, or Yasua Fukado, and they are just as willing to kill you, then it really no skin off my nose. I would consider it stupid..and a waste.

It is when you or Schmidt or lee wong decide that they will extend the killing to anothers children, anothers neighbors children, their wives and grandmothers and then race along to see who can kill more children and civilians the fastest in order to be called the victor, where I have a problem.

Yes I believe it time to put the tools of war away if there no way to use them unless Civilians are killed.

If Japan used such weapons, then they would have committed a war crime. Again you can not justify mass murder because the other side justifies it. We may as well have no morals or laws at all if that the case.

The FACT is the United States is the country that used such weapons. Not japan.

Mass murder is mass murder. It not mitigated by the color of ones skin or by ones Political belief system or that "they woulda done the same"

PK

Well ~RICHM~, you say what some posted yesterday on this subject are wrong. How about you arguing the "referenced" articles, that show that you are incorrect with your arguments? Here is another. Is it wrong
Rich? ___ The final paragraphs are very appropriate.

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/u234.html

GwNorth

The FACT is the United States is the country that used such weapons. Not japan.

I've said it before and I guess it needs repeating: Unit 731. Germ and bacterial warfare. That's Japan's cross to bear and they refuse to acknowledge the facts.

When such acts occur, it's not enough just to stand and yell "Shame on you!" Sometimes a rifle has to be picked up and good people must take action to protect the helpless.

Why do you resort to personal insults, instead of honest debate GW North? Why ask if I wish to pick up my guns and go kill someone. You are being rude and obtuse for no reason, other than you have your firm opinions and if any offer another they are stupid scum or worse.

Read that last link I just posted and then explain why Truman's decision was incorrect. Show some intelligence instead of just being a rude loud mouth. If you don't argue the facts, it proves that a rude loud mouth is exactly what you are. And your posting ONLY a single paragraph of some words of another's blog, is an attempt to take that blogger's opinions out of context. __ Put up or shut up.

>>'ve said it before and I guess it needs repeating: Unit 731. Germ and bacterial warfare. That's Japan's cross to bear and they refuse to acknowledge the facts.

That one side committed war crimes does not justify the other side doing the same. Just because the Germans committed a holocaust against the jews, it hardly meant America entitled to do the same.

Japan has its own past to live up to. That they will not hardly means the US should be forgiven.

I also have another question for Kem Patrick knowing his stand against the use of DU Munitions in Iraq.

1 The Pentagon claims that the use of such weapons saves the lives of American soldiers.

2 Some 500,000 Iraqi Children died during sanctions. By bringing war to Iraq and forcing a quick collapse of the Iraqi military due in part to DU Munitions, one can argue they save Civilian lives. ( I have seen this very arguement made that the War on Iraq would save Iraqi lives)

3 If a terrorist group based in Iraq got hold of a Nuclear weapon and were by some means able to smuggle it into the United States, chances are they would use it.

Are you opposed to the use of DU Munitions in Iraq or do you consider it a war crime?

PK

~RICH M~ What I just posted to ~GwNorth~ is appropriate for you also. "Put up or shut up." It is YOU who is making a fool of yourself. Argue those links I posted and tell us ALL once more, that Japan did not have a credible nuclear weapons program headed by some of the top nuclear physicists in the world. You are just rudly blathering nonsense here and it benefits nobody.

~ GwNorth~. You know full well that I am against "DU~ use and or any type of radio-active weapon. I always have been.

My ONLY argument here is, that Truman had to make a decision based upon what he was fully aware of in August of 1945, that was: Japan had atomic weapons and had the means to deliver them and you, or I or Mr. ~Rich M~ were not wearing Truman's shoes.

You also refuse to argue the links I posted and instead, you offer Strawman arguments, such as Japan's use of germ warfare, that is not the issue here. If that is your obtuse choice, I will not bother to reply to you again, unless you resort to unnecessary personal insults.

And your inane "PROOF" that the press would have published the story about Japan's nuclear weapons progam is also wrong ~RICHM~.

That and the I-400 subs and the cargo carried by the German sub U-234 was so highly classified, that it's public release would have landed anyone who made it public in prison.

In fact, the cargo that was in the Japanese I-400 sub that surrendered at wars end, is still so highly classified, the report which is locked in the Congressional archives, is available to ~NOBODY~. Now what do you suppose that sub was carrying as it headed towards the Americas in December of 1945?

I am sorry but this statement, "E=Mc2 was by far, the worst mathamatical error humanity ever made" is utter nonsense. That's like saying fire was the worst human discovery because some ingrates burned down a couple of cities. The fact that someone, Einstein in this case, comes up with an equation that shows how matter is converted into energy does not make it evil nor an error. The equation is simply a fact. E=mc^2 is after all the process by which the sun makes the energy that allows life on this planet. While science may progress it appears that humans as a species have not. We have yet to get beyond the limbic system's fight or flight jungle programming. Instead of pounding each other over the head with rocks over the watering hole, we are pounding each other with DUI, phosphorous and 1,000 pounds over the oil hole. So, what else is new? Nothing.
_
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking... the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." Albert Einstein

That's your opinion ~JOZEF~ would you appreciate it if someone said that your opinions were utter nonsense? I'd prefer nuclear power had never ever been an issue.

"If sunbeams were weapons of war, we would have had solar energy ages ago." ___~Sir George Potter~ Noble prize winner in chemistry.

~Rich M~ I'm backing my opinions up with links, you still refuse to address those. Tell us why those links are flawed and we can debate that with intelligence. The Japanese indeed did bomb us with a test mission, to determine how effecitve their I-400 subs would perform.

The test was a success and the famous Japanese pilot Nobuo Fujita dropped two bombs, nine mles west of Brookings Oregon on Sept 9, 1942. The test was sucessful and the Japanese made plans to deliver atomic weapons to our cities when they had perfected their atomic bombs.

You spout off flawed statements wiht nothing ot back them up and yet claim the comments I made are false and you refuse to argue the links I offered. ___ Who's the obtuse fool? And I do not care what your opinions are of me, argue the authors of the links I offered.

You also say the Japanese were not able to offer any resistance? You are not only being obtuse, you are also niaive. Tell that to the men and women who fought at Okinawa in May thru July of 1945.

Japan had more than 3,000 Baca bombers and suicide fighters, fully prepared to attack any landing fleet, along with hundreds of high speed suicide boats, each carrying tons of high explosives.

They would have lost, but the killings would have been horrendous on both sides. And did they have atomic weapons, dirty or explosive? You don't know, you say they didn't. Prove it. Argue the links I offered.

Gotta go, see you later if you either argue or agree with those links.

``

>>My ONLY argument here is, that Truman had to make a decision based upon what he was fully aware of in August of 1945, that was: Japan had atomic weapons and had the means to deliver them and you, or I or Mr. ~Rich M~ were not wearing Truman's shoes.

First I am highly skeptical of the claims made that Japan had such weapons. The fact that Truman and the United States did not use this as a reason for using said weapons on Japan and thayt it took some 40 years for this new evidence to reveal itself is reason enough to cast grave doubts on the assertions.

Secondly this again an unreasoned arguement. It fails at very many levels. Let us take again the example of Europe and the Nazis.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Nazis could have dropped poison gas on Cities in Britain. Yet neither Churchill nor the Americans used this as rationale to bombard german cities with poison gas.

They made the right choice and did not resort to such. It would have been a war crime (That said they committed other actions I consider war crimes . Such as Fire Bombing Dresden)

So why was the situation different in Japan when it came to using Nukes against Cities?

>>You also refuse to argue the links I posted and instead, you offer Strawman arguments, such as Japan's use of germ warfare, that is not the issue here. If that is your obtuse choice, I will not bother to reply to you again, unless you resort to unnecessary personal insults.

First i would like you to point out where I made a personal insult. I am simply asking you to clarify your position of two different wars as I see inconsistencies in your arguements.

Secondly, I did not bring up any straw man arguement regarding germ Warfare. Another brought that up and I merely responded to his point.

Third, as to your links they are in fact immaterail to the position I am making. My position is clear and it is consistent.

If the Germans, the Brits, The Russians or the Japanese had developed Nuclear weapons first and used them against another countries cities it still would have been mass murder and a war crime.

Even if they felt the other side might get such weapons so they had best use them first, it would still have been mass murder and a war crime.

By the way do you know why the Ohka rocket plane were called Baka Bombs?

The US called them baka for the japanese word for IDIOT. They were called idiot bombs because they were so easily countered...much like the old V1s were called doodle bugs by the Brits.

They were even less likely to hit there targets then were the planes. Their success rate was miniscule. Indeed in the Divine wind not a single successful attack was attributed to one of these "idiot" Bombs.

The US sailors would not have called them idiot bombs if they were as dangerous as you are suggesting.

PK

You also refuse to argue the links I posted and instead, you offer Strawman arguments, such as Japan's use of germ warfare, that is not the issue here. If that is your obtuse choice, I will not bother to reply to you again, unless you resort to unnecessary personal insults.

KEM PATRICK. Well, of course, it is my opinion. That's why I said it. And yes, I stand by my comment that statement was utter nonsense. When someone states that what which exists in nature is expressed correctly using mathematics, how is that an error? Yes. The world would be better off without human involvement in nuclear power and energy. That said, I'm certain that you and the poster we are referring to aren't advocating that the great nuclear fusion reactor in the sky, the sun, be turned off. By the way, my ego can take my comments being called "utter nonsense". But I see you no problem calling someone an "obtuse fool". Touche!

My January 1969 R&R would have included Nagasaki, if only I'd not been stopped at Hiroshima for 4 days.

Good God, we ought to be eternally ashamed of our country for doing this!

KEM, you are very and sorrowfully wrong, but have lots of company in being so.

"E=Mc2 was by far, the worst mathamatical error humanity ever made"

Naah, I thing it was F=ma. Clubs, rocks, arrows and bullets all do their work because if it.

The again, it could be ma = (G m1*m2)/r^2 - lots of people die of falls,

Or perhaps E = IR - lots of people get electrocuted.

But if E = Mc^2 was wrong, the universe would only consist of only photons and be a very boring place.

My point is, KEM, these aren't mistakes - they are laws of physics. And calling it a "mistake" really hurts your credibility - particularly your loony theory that Japan and Germany were developing nuclear weapons during WW2.

And, even if Japan or Germany were developing nuclear weapons, would they have used them against civilian targets? Aside from Coventry and London, it was the US and Brits that practically invented the indiscriminate aerial bombing of civilians.

Kem, (3:01 pm) oh, okay, let's all blame the Japanese and Germans for the U.S. developing the nuclear bomb. Some people will apologize for, find excuses and rationalize anything the imperialist war profiteers do.....

Yeah, the Japanese were planning and plotting and were "dangerous" just like Saddam was, eh? They might do something aggressive, so let's kill them just in case. No proof needed. The U.S. is guilty of war crimes and "pre-emptive" slaughter. Admit it.

the old saying and it may come true one day. He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.

Every one of you are ignorng the links I posted and there are many ohters availabe for any who wish to learn history and are also written by very credible sources. Several were written in 1945 by Thomas O. Paine, who was there in 1945 to inspect the Japanese facities and ships and special bombers and he later became the Flight Director for NASA's moon program.

Some here keep saying they don't believe Japan had a nuclear weapons program when the Japanese government has finally, freely admitted they did have two of them, one army and one navy. They also freely admitted that they indeed had well deawn out strategic plans to use them on our cities and had the means to do so and several here keep saying that's a lie. ___ Prove it's a lie.

Prove your ignorant assertions, which are based only upon your "personal opinions". I have offered proof of my comments and you ignore them and ~GwNorth~ even says they are immaterial. What a bunch of opinionated blowhards.

~GwNorth~, when you made your snotty high falutin comment, that I could take a gun and go kill people if that was my desire, that was a totally uncalled for remark and I was and am still am offended by that insuling comment. I had only offered credible "historical" links, that gave credible evidence of why Roosevelt decided to begin the Manhatten project and then Truman's decision to use the atomic weapons with the hope the war would end.

I have asked you what would you have done if you were the president as you say his decision was wrong in 1945 and you ignore that and continue to say that what I have posted is wrong. Where "specifically" is what I wrote wrong? I was quoting the links I posted. Where are they wrong and not factual?

You refuse to respond to that fair and reasonable question and explain why they are not accurate in any mannner, saying they are irrelevant. That is childish talk. Who in hell are you to claim that? You are full of of it and do not wish to learn something you were and still are ignorant of and you are not alone there.

Well ~I-lulu~, what did prompt Roosevelt to establish the Manhatten project? Perhaps you have a new theory, or maybe you were privy to top secret presidential discussions ion 1941? Let's hear your version of why the Manhatten project was initiated? I'll wait with baited breath to hear your credible explination. Thank you.

In the meantime, until you have re-written the history for us LULU, "I'll go along with the letter Albert Einstein wrote to Roosevelt and then the published discussions Roosevelt had with Oppenheimer and Teller during the following years about the issue. The truth is, we did have the Manhatten Project because of what Germany and Japan were already doing in regards to atomic weapons and if any don't believe that, they are just being obstinate and silly.

Who else wrote to me? Oh yeah of course, ~JOZEF~

Well Jozef, do I say now that your opinons are childish and immature, or just friggin stupid?

Nah, I'll just say that we disagree about the benefits of the development of nuclear energy. Pehaps you could explain to me ___ and to everyone, what great benefits we have derived since nuclear power developed by manknd here on Earth has been a fact?

I'm aware that we and other countries have nuclear powered warships and submarines, fantastic they are, and very beneficial for humanity. Well, maybe not beneficial for humanity? How many of the thousands of commercial ships are powered by nuclear power plants? One, two, three, __ more? How many? If it's such a swell idea, why aren't most ships powered by nuclear energy? It's perfectly safe we're told and enviromentally friendly.

What else, oh yes of course, nuclear power plants. Again, perfectly safe as a newborn babe and cleaner than snot. very few have ever died from a nuclear accident and another Three Mile Island, or a Chernobyl are beyond worrying about. Freak accidents they were.

Ya know, you can believe what you like about nuclear power ~JOZEF~ that's your perogative. My perogative is, I wish it had never ever been dreampt up by any human. Here is a swell link that gives the nuclear accidents over the years in the United States.

You might be amazed to learn how many nuclear bombs are missing and no one knows where they are. Or how many serious accident there have been that came within seconds of another Chernobyl, just plain ass luck prevented it. Of course like other links I have posted here, it can be ignored or said to be "immaterial". Actually it's very informative and a little scary too.

http://www.lutins.org/nukes.html

We dropped 2 atomic bombs on a country that was defeated and made known that they were willing to surrender if we allowed them to keep their Emperor. Germany, Russia (our ally) and the Japanese were working on nuclear weapons. Thats not a secret. None of them had the bomb in 1945, that is also known today, maybe not as well known then. But Japan had limited ability to deliver such a weapon on the US, and it's conventional military was so devasated doing so would have been suicidal. The Generals and Emperor were not suicidal. Arguing that these bombs were dropped for defensive reasons is ludicrous.

Many of those German and Japanese scientist who worked on chemical, biological and nuclear weapons went to work for us after the war and many became citizens.

That Einsten is the inventor of E=mc2 is a another myth. Preston formulated atomic energy, the atom bomb and superconductivity back in the 1870s. In 1904 the Italian Olinto De Pretto published a paper relative to E=mc2. Einstein was fluent in Italian. Einstein then published a paper in 1905 with no notes or references deriving E=mc2.

Preston can be credited with knowing E=mc2 in 1875 before Einstein was born. He determined the energy from one grain could lift a 100,000-ton object up to a height of 1.9 miles, which is what E=mc2 would predict.

Einstein in 1905 did not believe man would be able to harness the energy from matter, that it was purely a natural process that man could never produce or control.

>>GwNorth~, when you made your snotty high falutin comment, that I could take a gun and go kill people if that was my desire, that was a totally uncalled for remark and I was and am still am offended by that insuling comment. I had only offered credible "historical" links, that gave credible evidence of why Roosevelt decided to begin the Manhatten project and then Truman's decision to use the atomic weapons with the hope the war would end.

You only took offense because you wished to. I could have took your own comments as snotty when you mentioned my being against sticks and stones as weapons.

I let you know in no uncertain terms, the issue is the killing of Civilians

The point being if two men want to duke it out , that one story, if they want to expand their grievance to include children and standers by, that another issue entirely.

If you can not see the difference then I will not expalin it any further and you can live with your outrage.

PK

>>You refuse to respond to that fair and reasonable question and explain why they are not accurate in any mannner, saying they are irrelevant. That is childish talk. Who in hell are you to claim that? You are full of of it and do not wish to learn something you were and still are ignorant of and you are not alone there.

It odd you can imagine insults and attack people for resorting to insults, yet use them continously in virtualy every post of rebuttal.

I answered your question on Truman several times over.

I indicated that even had Japan Nuclear weapons, the action of dropping the Bombs on Hiroshima and nagasaki was a war crime and mass murder.

I can not be any clearer.

If an Iraqi national managed to smuggle a Nuclear weapon into the United States and destroy New York City, that would be an act of mass murder and a war crime.

Even though the US waged an aggressive war against his country. Even though the United States has such weapons and threatens to use them. Even though they have saturated his country with DU Munitions. One war crime does not justify another.

PK

The provocations of the fascist powers as well as the response of the Allies during WWII are responsible for the attrocity of nuclear weapons. Had the urgency of Axis programs of nuclear weapon developmnet as well as the need for some more emphatic way to convince the Japanese to stop their fighting not existed, eventually some other factor would have driven someone to develope such capacity.

The tragedy of Nagasaki was that after Hiroshima it was totally unnecessary except to convince a potential foe known as the Stalinist USSR that we were badder than they were.

I did not insult you for mentioning sticks and stones at all, I thought I broght that subject up as an analogy. I'm not outraged either, just don't like your uncalled for insults. Yeah I sometimes insult others when I've been insulted. There was no reason for you to start that here.

You did not reply to the articles I posted in any way shape or form. You ignored them and stated they were irrevelant. I also don't care if you give an honest repy, you have totally ignored the links I offered as svidence and proof that Japan had a nucler weapons program, had the means to deliver several to our country and intended to do just that. All you have offered is your personal opinions.

~MIMICCs~, Russia did not have a nucelar weapons program during WW-2, and as per usual you are misinformed or just spoutiong off nonsense from the top of your head. Russia took the Japanese program which was located in North Korea. And few were aware Japan had a nuclear weapons program and very few were aware how far they had progressed. Truman and a handful od others were aware.

Japan had no intention of surrendering unless it was their terms, which were not going to be accepted. For one thing, Russia, Great Britian and the United States would all have had to agree with Japan's terms per the Potsdam Conference terms.

Here are a few of Japan's terms and they refused to budge. There would be no occupation, They would have Korea and Okinawa and some of the other Pacific Islands, they would surrender no militry weapons, they would conduct any trials for war crimes by their military or civilians. The allies would withdraw all of their forces, the Japanese would surrender and the war would end. So If you would have accepted those surrender terms I would not be surprised.

>>You did not reply to the articles I posted in any way shape or form. You ignored them and stated they were irrevelant. I also don't care if you give an honest repy, you have totally ignored the links I offered as svidence and proof that Japan had a nucler weapons program, had the means to deliver several to our country and intended to do just that. All you have offered is your personal opinions.

I ignored them because as I explained 40 times over, they had no relevance to the point I was making. None whatsoever.

That point being dropping of Nuclear weapons on Cities is an act of mass murder and a war crime.

You continue to ignore that. You want to change the debate into whether Japan had such weapons which is not relavnt to my point that such weapons should not be dropped on Cities.

PK

BTW MIMICCS, I never said Einstein was responsible for the equation E=Mc2, ___ but I thought he was.

Your comments about the Japanese nuclear weapons program, etc is just as wrong as the othere here, all of you who have said I was wrong on that subject actually are saying the authors of the links I offered are wrong but you give no support for your strange opinions, NONE. You are just spouting off your own personal opinions based upon nothing whatsoever to substantiate it. LOL.

BTW ~GWN~ Having lived in Japan for two years I am quite familiar with term "BACA". It was not made by our troops in referenc to any EASE of shooting down the aircraft, LOL twice. It was the pilots they were referring to as being crazy or BACA.

You say the rocket propelled BACA bombers were easy to shoot down, again you are spouting off nonsense. The naval radar controlled guns could not track them at the time in history and the gunners of the other smaller antiaircraft guns also had a great deal of trouble hitting an aircraft flying near 600mph.

The Japanese used a few of the rocket propelled suicide aircraft at Okinawa and saved the rest for any coming invasion of their homeland. The Kamikazi aircraft had a hit percentage of 8.5%. The rocket powered models were nearer 22%, so you don't know what you are talking about on that score either. They sank 30 of our ship at Okinawa with suicide attacks, 4,900 sailors and 2,900 marines killed and near 15,000 wounded.

With not having to fly 400+ miles to the targets and avoid our protective shield of fighters and destroyers, if we had invaded the home islands the Kamikazi attacks would have been far more effective and deadly. You know nothing about the subject and it clearly shows.

If we had invaded, the war would have gone on for months, the bombing of their cities would have continued and it is not unreaonable to state, that twenty or more million Japanese civilians would have died. So again, what would your decision have been as president? ___ Anyone? ___ Fraid to answer?

Mandela had it right in 2003: "If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings. Fifty-seven years ago, when Japan was retreating on all fronts, they decided to drop the atom bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki; killed a lot of innocent people, who are still suffering the effects of those bombs…

"Those bombs were not aimed against the Japanese, they were aimed against the Soviet Union to say, 'look, this is the power that we have. If you dare oppose what we do, this is what is going to happen to you'. Because they are so arrogant, they decided to kill innocent people in Japan, who are still suffering from that."

As disgusting as the Japanese and Nazi were, they never dropped an atomic bomb on another nation.

That Americans could defend incinerating 300,000 in 10 seconds shows us how corrupt, inhuman and pathological the American mindset is.

Sigh.

Here is a well balanced article.

http://www.counterpunch.org/young08062008.html

As I said before, their Emperor and Generals were not suicidal, the elite never are suicidal. The fact they they had suicidal pilots does not change this.

The Soviets had declared war on them. Our Navy had them surrounded. They required imported oil to fight. They were defeated. They knew it, we knew it, and the Soviets knew it (thats why they declared war so as to get a piece of the loot when we divided it up, they knew there was little fight left in them).

The first draft of the Potsdam Resolution had a line indicating the Japanese could keep their Emperor, since they had expressed that would be a condition on which they would need to surrender. Truman crossed it out. In the end, after dropping 2 bombs on civilian population centers, we allowed Japan to keep their Emperor.

It's early AM, so as no one else is busy here offering opinions, or giving technical science lessons, think I'll just ramble awhile, Sunday's are slow anyway.

Hey ~MIMICCS~, you often have come up with some rather strange comments when the subject is "global warming" and I now see you apply that same degree of strangeness to other subjects, such as your long winded disartation about "Samuel"? Preston, and the math formula E=Mc2.

Thought you may appreciate some help on the subject, as you're not totally wrapped up with it. You see, it isn't really a MYTH that Albert Einstein is credited with the famous formula, as prior to Einstein, it was only known that a beam of light pushes against matter, or (radiation pressure).

Einstien took that known fact much much further and showed that radiation (or light) energy, has an equivelant mass. So his great insight was, that he realized that matter and energy are really different forms of the same thing. Matter can be turned into energy and energy into matter. Preston didn't have that insight, ____ neither did anyone else.

Prior to that profound knowledge being published by Einstein, humans got along very well without knowing it, or that "great nuclear fusion reactor in the sky" as ~JOZEF~ names the three letter word "SUN", shone every day and we didn't worry about wiping out life on Earth with a few dozen bomb explosions, or storing man made radio-active poison from now thru perpetuity.

Albert Einstein knew where his math formula would eventually lead. He was the scientist's scientist. I so wish he'd just burned his papers on the subject. I wonder if he ever wished that also, for he was a good and peaceful loving man by nature and before the bomb was tested, he wrote a letter to President Roosevelt asking him to re-consider ever testing the bomb. Sadly, Roosevlet died before the letter arrived and Truman never opened Roosevelt's mail. "Fate is the hunter" isn't it, as Ernest K. Gann was so fond of saying.

Hey there ~USAn~ how the heck are ya? I see you also jumped on the one horse "Japan didn't have a nuclear weapons program" bandwagon here. how ya feel bunched up with a buncho of ignorant dummies?

You ever heard of Dr. Yoshio Nishima, who was a a close associate of Einstein, or the Nobel Prize winning nuclear whiz Bunsaku Arakatsu, once a friend and student of Einstein's? ___ My my, my, I had no idea there were so many who were oblivious and ignorant of the factual history of that issue. I'm ignorant about delivering babies and cutting toenails, but I'm up on this subject. You obviously are not.

Oh ~USAn~, it's not MY looney ideas bud, read the links I posted. That's where I garnered some of my "goofy" but factual information. Where did you get yours? Care to share it with us?

So what MIMI? We were not going to allow their surrender terms. If Truman had he would have been impeached in a day and shot for being a traitor during a war. And you post an article written by a graduate student of history as facts. ___ Sigh..........

The Russians declared war on Japan after we dropped the second atomic bomb. An example: Germany was defeated also, we owned the air and the seas, the Germans were surrounded and fought to the death and refused to surrender. The Japanese were far more fanatical than the Germans were and they didn't have Kamikaizis.

An invasion would have been horrific for both sides and millions of Japanese civilians would have died if they didn't surrender. They surrendered after Truman used the bombs. Again, what decision would YOU have made? Spit it out, you seem to have all of the answers.

And you do the same thing here that you do on the important G/W threads ~MIMICCS~. You offer a link and it turns out to be a paper written by a 19 year old college histoy student. Is that the best you can do to "prove" your weak arguments MIMNI? ____ "Sigh" is right.

KEM

"Nah, I'll just say that we disagree about the benefits of the development of nuclear energy. Pehaps you could explain to me ___ and to everyone, what great benefits we have derived since nuclear power developed by manknd here on Earth has been a fact?" Please read my posts again. Both of them. Where do I say that human involvement in nuclear power and/or energy was a good thing or that it provided benefits? Nowhere. That's where. What I said was that E=mc^2 was the equation for the nuclear process that is as natural as sunlight hitting the earth from the "great fusion reactor in the sky". That the equation and discovery of it by itself are neither "in error", nor "wrong", nor evil. I prefer a world without nuclear weapons and energy. That said, I will repeat, I am not about to advocate turning off the sun which is E=mc^2. My retort had to do with you calling the equation E=mc^2 wrong. It is not. But you may read into my comments anything you want. Call them anything you like as well. I can take it.

"~JOZEF~ names the three letter word "SUN", shone every day and we didn't worry about wiping out life on Earth with a few dozen bomb explosions, or storing man made radio-active poison from now thru perpetuity."
_
At any moment that "SUN" that you don't worry about might belch a coronal mass ejection of enormous proportions and wipe earth out. Or cause the power grid in New York City to fail where people die as a result. Then there are the people who get skin cancer and cataracts from sun explosure, x-rays, cosmic rays, microwave radiation, solar wind, etc. And eventually, the sun will expand into a red giant creating the last barbeque on earth with humans and all other life on its spit. I am going to venture to guess that more people have died throughout the millenia as a result of the sun than man instigated nuclear power. Now don't misread my words. I am opposed to nuclear power and weapons. The reality is, however, that we exist as a consequence of it and that the equation E=mc^2 describes its process. The equation is neither good nor bad. It just is.

Defending American Imperialism
A Play in One Act

(The Ghost of Harry Truman, a restless spirit, is pacing in cyberspace)

Ghost of Harry Truman: Oh, dear. Yet another article on Common Dreams about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every time someone brings that topic up, the chain I drag behind me rattles and seems to tighten ever more around my neck. Whatever shall I do?

Thomas O. Paine: I have just the solution, Mr. President.

(Enter Kem Patrick)

Kem Patrick: Lieutenant Patrick reporting for duty, sir!

Paine: President Truman needs you son.

Kem: I'm ready to serve, sir!

Paine: Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to head a force of Japanese submersible aircraft carriers armed with nuclear weapons developed by the Japanese during WWII. The purpose of these weapons is to destroy any attempt to rationally discuss America's use of atomic weapons against Japanese civilians. You'll have to navigate dangerous waters filled with hippies and other progressives who seem to think that dropping atomic weapons on civilians can never be justified. Don't assume that just because they are hippies that they are not dangerous because they will be armed with facts. Don't let that intimidate you. Keep detonating those Japanese nukes until they shut the hell up. Are you willing to undertake this dangerous mission?

Kem: Sir, yes, sir!

Paine: Get to it then!

Ghost of Harry Truman: Hopefully now I can rest in peace!

(Repeat Scene 1 ad nauseum)

~JOZEF~ Think. It was the math formula E=Mc2 that resulted in mankind developing nuclear power that was used to develop the atomic bomb. Our sun has nothing to do with ~Albert Einstien's~ mathamatical insight.

You are just arguing over word usage, no matter who ever figured out E=Mc2, we never would have developed atomic weapons if mankind had not figured it out. Naturally the math formula is correct, atomic weapons proves that. The mistake I referred to is, "it's a shame it was ever figured out". Can you handle that?

And I see another person, ~Chicinary~ who does not wish to know som einteresting history of WW-2 has arrived and posted an ignorant blog while ignorng the historical facts about WW-2 and makes fun of the issue. Another ignoramous who refused to address the presented facts but does not hesitate to display ignorance and childish satisfaction. Am running out of dunce caps here.

Kem: The facts that you've presented on this issue have been few and far between. You're great on other issues, but seem to have a blindspot here.

My point is this. Hijacking every single discussion of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as you seem to like to do is akin to yelling abuse at the participants in a funeral procession. Let people mourn. That's what the article you've commented on here was about. Tell me that all the people in the photos on the attached link deserved it, Kem. I dare you.

http://www.gensuikin.org/english/photo.html

~CHICINARY~ Your charges that I have offered little evidence for my opinions here is not true.

If you will read my first three posts here at the beginnig of the commment section, it is quite obvious that I do not favor wars, do not favor atomic weapons and I have posted a excellent evidence to back up what I have written about Japan's nuclear weapons program.

I also posted excellent evidence of Japan's plans to use atomic weapons and how they planned to accomplish their plans. You and several others here who have mocked me, have ALL refused to discuss the links that I posted and tell us why they are false, or incorrect, or propaganda bullshit. They are either factual or they are lies. Tell us what YOU believe they are and why. I suspect you never bothered to read any of them.

I have posted several blogs here in responce to several others, therefore I have many blogs here, as evidenced that I am now responding to your last unfounded charges which you directed at me.

Could you explain why those articles I posted are incorrect? At least address the evidence I have offered. If not, then you too are just blathering accepted nonsense and refuse to accept the truth about Japan's nuclear weapons program and the reason Truman made his decisions. Join the gang of those who refuse to offer decent debate on the issue and be obtuse and maintain your ignorance on some important history of WW-2.

~Chicanery~, I am fully aware that nuclear weapons used against Japan caused horrible injuries and the death of thousands. It was horrible. ___ Any war is horrible.

Do you have any photos to share of the many more thousands of dead civilians, wemon, babies and children in Tokyo, from bombing raids? Do you have any photos to share of the Japanese Rape Of Nanking, or the beheading of the flight crew members who flew on Doolittle's bomb mission of Tokyo?

How about Japan's nuclear weapons facilities and their I-400 class subs, ya got any photos of those things?

You ever seen photos of a gold star on a blue background flag hanging in an American's front window of their house? That is what thousands of wives and parents had to love, their son or daughter, wife, or husband was gone forever.

Their usually very young, but dead loved one, who did not start the war with the Japanese, a nation that WAS developing atomic weapons to use on us. Please do PROVE to us, that they were not doing that ~Chicanery~, as you and several others here claim it isn't so. I DARE you to prove it.

Edit please.

Right on the money KEM. Your history on this is 100% correct. These revisionists here are not interested in truth, but polemic.

There may have been signals from Japan that they would sign some armistice, but that was not somthing we were going to agree on and they knew it because we stated that in 1943. If Japan were so keen on surrendering they would have before August 1945. Even then they didn't surrender after the first bomb or even after the second bomb. It took 5 days after that because the military leaders in Japan, not the Emperor, were willing to fight to the last Japanese.

As for a Japanese Nuclear program, it was very advanced and there are signs that they had an actual test off the coast of North Korea that resulted in what we would today call a "fizzle" where the fissionable material was not compressed correctly causing only a partial chain reaction. This has not been proven, but we know they had enriched uranium, the brians and eye-witness accounts of Korean fishermen that say the night turned to day and a mushroom cloud of fire formed.

As you say Kem, at the time we had a war weary nation that expected to have to invade the home islands. A nation that watched the Japanese civilians on Iwo Jima and Saipan grab their children and jump to their deaths on the cliffs rather than being captured. A nation that saw the Japanese newsreals of children being trained how to use bamboo spears to attack the Americans should they come. A nation who's ships had been subjected to swarms of kamakazi aircraft where the crews knew before the took off that they were going to crash into American ships.

If we had gone in on the ground, there would have been HUGE casualties. For the actual overview of the plan go to http://www.blackvault.com/documents/wwii/marine1/1239.pdf

Anyway. You are right on the money KEM. Revisionism like this is simply wrong and should be stopped.

To go off topic a little bit, actually the Sun may not in fact be "a great fusion reactor in the sky" after all.

Check out www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=x49g6gsf&pf=YES

Naturally, the perspective offered by above article implies that "everything else is not what we think it is either".

I have been seriously interested in the whole 'plasma cosmos' scenario since last fall, when the tractor I was driving was struck by lightning . . . (old funky but beloved Ford tractor used for raking hay, husband had just put on a long upright exhaust pipe after original exhaust manifold had finally given up the ghost, lightning traveled sideways from cloud bank miles away to the north and found exhaust pipe . . . )

We live in a very electrically active area and plasma cosmology makes a lot of sense to me.

Question : what kinds of uncharted and unchartable energies are released during a 'nuclear event' ?