to estebandido:

indeed. and bless you.

http://zuma.vip.warped.com/planetplantplan.png

I read on another blog that Snow Wolf couldn't find this blog since it moved. That jerk couldn't find his ass with his finger if he had nine hands.

SnowWolf:

We believe it because the rest of the world has seen your country lie about this stuff so much that we give more credence to the "terrorists" than we do to the war criminals leading your nation.

That would be just about everyone in the rest of the world, including the "civilized" nations of the west. Nobody believes your bullshit any more; and once your economy tanks so badly that you can no longer afford your war machine and the fear goes, the rest of the world is going to treat your country in the manner in which it so richly deserves.

Stick that in your authoritarian pipe and smoke it.

There was torture at Guant. Bay Prison, Abu Ghuraib, and the many other GWoT prisons of the U.S. and, I suppose anyway, its coalition (for wars of total aggression) allies. There has been both physical and psychological torture.

Ya know what? This is what. The mere fact that the U.S. and its thugs arrest people without any real charges, so without any valid cause whatsoever, and then keep them detained in prisons, away from families and their normal lives, without any due process of law; THIS IS TORTURE! It is psychological torture, but perhaps also physical. Being held in solitary confinement for a year, even months, is torture.

I don't perceive only one kind of act being able to constitute torture; I perceive degrees and/or varieties, different kinds of torture. A parent who deliberately and savagely condemns their child's right to legitimate self-defence when he or she is being savagely beaten by guilty perpetrators and then the parent just stands there, doing nothing, only condemning their child's rights, even this is torture. It is to join in the threat against the life of the victim child, and if that child is young, then the effect that the parent has certainly can be, if not simply is, an act of psychological torture.

That these might not be examples of torture defined in humans' books of laws or policies is possible; but then humans [often] err, are negligent, etcetera, too.

There is No war. Lets call it what it is: an Invasion. Torture is never acceptable in any situation. First reason is because it is not a moral thing to do to another human being. The second reason is that you cannot rely on information from somebody that is under physical and mental duress. The third reason is that the Torturers, experienced or not, are committing crimes against humanity as well as irreprable damage to their own psyches.

It does not get any more complex than this. The values and morals towards human life, taught in our communities, reflect on each and every one of us.

Light Warrior

Many thanks to the "snow wolf" for his perfect epigrams of senseless blather: he has managed to elicit some powerful responses... as he undoubtedly doesn't realize, yet. More profound thanks to the bloggers who speak so clearly!

I have always felt that the plant entheogens were almost guaranteed to further the experience of conscience, and to cement those feelings of unity, brotherhood, and compassion necessary for our specie's survival....so why do we hear so little of peyote ceremonies, ayauasca churches, mescalin religion, etc? Were we too little too late, or is it just a matter of time before we reap the rewards of the cultural enlightenment of 40 years ago?

psychopathy, stated oversimply, is the absence of the emotions of conscience.
genetically speaking, one pattern is as legitimate as another.
psychopaths, by nature of their own circumstance, have their own aspects, their own 'gifts' as it were.
our political history never had such advantage of awareness of human psychology as we do now, no matter how woefully limited it still relatively is, and we might see now the psychopathic component in politics that has always been there.
machiavelli comes to mind, and so on.

dr. robert d. hare has been working in this field for over 25 years. his work is recognized in many courts. i recommend his book, 'Without Conscience'.

http://hare.org/

what we have been seeing in these past eight years is strongly related, i believe.

the american empire began long before, and likely of less direct influence as this, but here now i think we're seeing greed, ego, power intoxication, and all so much more, converging -converged -into a plain and simple pathological dynamic -now consuming the world. our unholy influence is reflected in the most horrendous reports from italy, england, many places, while russia is less different from us than ever. think of them as one thinks of china, and us. and think of the falun gong then. and pray for them. and us all.

this excerpt from 1984:
http://zuma.vip.warped.com/forcesofhate.mp3

the war on terror is a war on resistance.
let us wage war on violence, all violence, physical, emotional, economic, cultural, spiritual.

let us remember sen. wm. j. fulbright's words on competition in The Crippled Giant.

let us think upon alcohol too. as a spirit that takes over human hosts.

let us regard war as dispensable and peace as not.

let us remember the economic fabric the M/I complex has woven about us all.

let us see the immensity of what we are up against. let us win the race between catastrophe and enlightenment.

and end this torture.

Litmus test for terminal stupidity: Do you believe everything the military tells you?

If the answer is, YES, you are terminallly stupid.

Sorry, Snow Wolf!

Hey, the torturer government of the US is the government that American liberals actually look to for having do more 'humanitarian interventions' around the globe, like in Sudan. The torturers are the ones that arrange trials of 'war criminals' from places where they themselves bombed civilians previously, like in Yugoslavia. The US torturers are the ones that are the modern age robber barons, who loot and pillage entire regions of the world.

The torturers are like the slave holders of previous times, those who wrote the laws down now declared illegal and that allowed slaves to be held by others as their personal property. These torturers wrote the 'laws' that legalized this man's torture while most of us slept on. 'Democracy' that tortures is our electoral system in action, with 2 gangs of the same competing against each other. These torturers are the descendent's of those that dropped 2 atomic bombs on civilians in 2 different cities.

torture is torture is torture whether or not the cell gets flooded....can't someone direct snow wolf to a gi joe mercenary forum where he can hang out with his buds and we can get on with our intelligent and impassioned truth telling?

Pepper spray, for anyone who is not aware, has for its active ingredient (what makes it burn), capsaicin, a chemical derived from the fruit of plants in the Capsicum genus, including chilis. This Capsicum genus (Capsicum annuum), or chili pepper plant, also happens to be the source plant for cayenne pepper. Check it up at wikipedia if you don't believe me.

oops, forgive the typo. I know how to spell Wisconsin.

ranchero,
Remember Dale Decker, the Wisconsan man who flew his flag upside down? (I think I read about him on CD, but found another article here: http://www.progressive.org/mag/wx070408 ).

After watching "In the Valley of Elah" I thought about wearing a flag lapel pin upside down or putting a flag sticker upside down on my car. But I live in a conservative community where people still have "W" and "Viva Bush" stickers on their cars and some idiot would probably slash my tires, break my windshield, or be followed around by the police. It's sad that we are becoming too afraid to speak out, to demonstrate, to protest.

The best way to promote freedom, democracy and human rights throughout the world is to walk the walk of freedom, democracy and human rights in everything we do…everywhere. Free, democratic and "civilized" (to borrow a popular term used especially by the Right) nations DO NOT torture...DO NOT use semantics to torture without calling it torture...and DO NOT create special rules to torture in far off places and out of sight of the public. They DO, however, prosecute those who torture, order torture, or allow it to happen. That you do not understand this simple truth Snow Wolf speaks volumes about your ignorance regarding the real cause of 9-11…and the real reason increasing numbers of people throughout the world have come to "hate us." Osama Bin Laden could not have asked for a better response from us for 9-11 than what the Bush administration…with the support of Congress… gave him and continue to give him. This includes our treatment of prisoners. But you don't understand that, do you Snow Wolf?

The international sign of distress is the upside-down flag. international, unless YOUR flag looks the same upside-down, like Switzerland. When I use snail mail I use the flag stamps, how? The USA has been occupied by the Bush Crime Family these last seven years. I think it's only fair to warn you that this action may draw special attention from the FBI, as it is also the emblem of the American Indian Movement, of Wounded Knee fame. We are all brothers and sisters united in our distress. Does anybody believe John McCain feels our pain?

Investigation of American Torture Practices?

Is there a problem with America's technique?
We think up a lie, we make it up quick.
All rights we deny, we make the charge stick!

In Salem they used a dunking chair -- same effect and purpose.

As for SnowWolf's referral to waterboarding as "simulated drowning," I call Bullshit.

bluesky...

they don't do it in a Cell (My Bad) they interrogate in a room very similar to what the Police use...you DON'T turn on a Hose in there...use the kidney *taps forehead*..Think about what he's saying...seriously

you will believe ANYTHING...and HE knows it

Asshole has me so pissed off I wish they really WOULD torture him...but he's a low level little pissant with nothing of any national security value...so he sits in his Cell eating Culturally Sensitive rations and making up Bullshit for his Lawyers

Hey there Snow Wolf,

You bozo. It is most certainly NOT a declared war. And the man who was tortured never said he was in a cell. And corrupt local police is all any country has now, so you best watch out before its yoru turn in the cell. I wish I were a fly on the wall of your cell you are probably a screeching coward.

YellowSnowChicken

Go back to playing with your GI Joe dolls...you are opinionated but based on no facts, knowledge, nor intelligence...which equals a mere blowhard.

I remember when I was young and stupid, and thought that acting all tough was cool...then I turned 13...

C'mon...this is the old Koran flushed down a toilet story...only with a better imagination

standing there with an open flow hose in a cell would fricken flood the place out most ricky-tick

Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit!!!!!!

Ameziane alleges that he was subjected to a form of waterboarding, with guards holding his head back and placing a water hose between his nose and mouth, running it for several minutes over his face and suffocating him.

Whaaaaaat?

I call DOUBLE Bullshit!...if you fall for this Cock and Bull story you are a fool...that is NOT How Waterboarding is done...they put a cloth over your face and pour the Water from a Jerry Can...thats why its SIMULATED Drowning...He's lieing and I'll wager the Farm against anyone who thinks different

Hey, Snow job Wolf.....So the dog that's not allowed to bite; bites. What do we do to see that the dog doesn't do it again......? Send it to the School of the Americas and make it take a course in human rights?, which will be forgotten as soon as we give it a 12 volt battery, a transformer/converter and a set of electrodes?

In another instance, his entire body was sprayed with cayenne pepper and then hosed down with pepper to simulate the skin-burning effect of pepper spray, CCR and CEJIL said

??????...why didn't they just use real Pepper Spray?...I call Bullshit on this Guy...

He's Lieing

SnowWolf has designated him/herself to be the expert on effective interrogation and torture, and the Al-Qaida "field manual."
During the Spanish Inquisition, the accused were not informed about charges against them. They could be imprisoned for months, even years, before knowing why. Torture methods (no one called it "enhanced interrogation" back then) included the use of water boarding. Women and children were not exempt from torture. Many people confessed to heresy.
Torture was also used to get "witches" to confess.
Obviously, the torture made these people "talk"; and obviously, if they talked, they must have been guilty of what they were charged with.

Sorry

This is one position I will never back down from...those guys are getting way better treatment than they deserve...I guess we can all be happy I'm not running the show down there

re youbetterwork August 7th, 2008 1:11 pm:

there's a clue in the post you mention where the poster says "I know you are going to call me every name in the book..."

i've learned from my time here that some individuals simply crave attention, and will take a contrary position just to see what reaction can be stirred up. getting flamed is, to such a one, like winning a gold medal.

of course you're right that debating these types is pointless, but deliberate disinformation (such as claiming knowledge of the contents of an alleged "al qaeda field manual") needs to be countered with facts, lest the innocent and unwary go abroad in the world with an inaccurate map.

as to forgiveness, isn't that part of god's job description?

you better work

well guess what?...you can whine and stamp your feet and tell me what a big meanie I am

but I want you to be alive to whine and stamp your feet and tell you what a big meanie I am

except for the waterboarding NONE of the techniques they use are torture...they suck and they aren't nice (by the way...if you go through Green Beret or SEAL training I guarentee you'll be waterboarded) ....they do it because its effective...not because they are A$$holes...it will scare the Shite out of you...and you'll talk

and your counter that you'll say anything to make it stop is BS too...ask somebody from the CIA...these Guys know what they're doing

(Ok yes…three that we know about)... who survived. Do we know about those who did not? Only in rumors and hearsay (acceptable by Gitmo standards).

To have a War you have to have an opponent. Who is the opponent? From Government actions it would appear that anyone who is not employed by Government is an opponent. With the anthrax scare, Government only attempted to protect themselves. Postal employees found out that they were not Government any more. The PATRIOT Act is directed at citizens for the convenience of Government.

It comes to the point where I have nothing to say to people like SnowWolf.

I don't want to know such people, I don't want to associate in any way with such people.

I really wonder about the deep division in the USA... How can it ever heal? I don't want to speak to such people, even in anger. Even to debate. There is no debate, I don't care if they ever agree, because I don't think they ever will. And even if they could, could I forgive them?

Claiming Torture is right out of the Al Queda field manual...

Loud music (Achy Breaky Heart anyone), uncomfortable positions...Cold rooms...getting to Meet Fido the Military working Dog (who was NOT allowed to actually bite)...Waterboarding was the worst of it and only done to three (Ok yes...three that we know about)...this is a massive PR campaign

I know you are going to call me every name in the book but it IS a War...and its not pretty and its not nice... and you can say not in my name...but they may certainly do it in my name

"Devils Island" 21st Century style. Home of the "Freedom Fries?"