Prepare For Global Temperature Rise of 4C, Warns Top Scientist
Defra's chief adviser says we need strategy to adapt to potential catastrophic increase
The UK should take active steps to prepare for dangerous climate change of perhaps 4C according to one of the government's chief scientific advisers.
In policy areas such as flood protection, agriculture and coastal erosion Professor Bob Watson said the country should plan for the effects of a 4C global average rise on pre-industrial levels. The EU is committed to limiting emissions globally so that temperatures do not rise more than 2C.
"There is no doubt that we should aim to limit changes in the global mean surface temperature to 2C above pre-industrial," Watson, the chief scientific adviser to the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, told the Guardian. "But given this is an ambitious target, and we don't know in detail how to limit greenhouse gas emissions to realise a 2 degree target, we should be prepared to adapt to 4C."
Link to this audio
James Randerson: 'Massive shifts in Earth's systems'
Globally, a 4C temperature rise would have a catastrophic impact.
According to the government's 2006 Stern review on the economics of climate change, between 7 million and 300 million more people would be affected by coastal flooding each year, there would be a 30-50% reduction in water availability in Southern Africa and the Mediterranean, agricultural yields would decline 15 to 35% in Africa and 20 to 50% of animal and plant species would face extinction.
In the UK, the most significant impact would be rising sea levels and inland flooding. Climate modellers also predict there would be an increase in heavy rainfall events in winter and drier summers.
Watson's plea to prepare for the worst was backed up by the government's former chief scientific adviser, Sir David King. He said that even with a comprehensive global deal to keep carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere at below 450 parts per million there is a 50% probability that temperatures would exceed 2C and a 20% probability they would exceed 3.5C.
"So even if we get the best possible global agreement to reduce greenhouse gasses on any rational basis you should be preparing for a 20% risk so I think Bob Watson is quite right to put up the figure of 4 degrees," he said.
One big unknown is the stage at which dangerous tipping points would be reached that lead to further warming - for example the release of methane hydrate deposits in the Arctic. "My own feeling is that if we get to a 4 degree rise it is quite possible that we would begin to see a runaway increase," said King.
He said a two-and-half-year analysis by the government's Foresight programme on the implications for coastal defences had more impact in the corridors of power than any other research on the effects of climate change that he presented.
"No other single factor focussed the minds of the cabinet more than the analysis that I produced through that ... We begin to have to talk about ordered retreat from some areas of Britain because it becomes impossible to defend," he said. "There's no choice here between adaptation and mitigation, we have to do both."
Other experts were concerned that Watson's comments might be seen as defeatist and an admission that emissions reductions were impossible to achieve.
"At 4 degrees we are basically into a different climate regime," said Prof Neil Adger, an expert on adaptation to climate change at the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research in Norwich.
"I think that is a dangerous mindset to be in. Thinking through the implications of 4 degrees of warming shows that the impacts are so significant that the only real adaptation strategy is to avoid that at all cost because of the pain and suffering that is going to cost.
"There is no science on how we are going to adapt to 4 degrees warming. It is actually pretty alarming," he added.
Speaking to the Guardian, Watson, who is a former science adviser to President Clinton and ex-chief scientist at the World Bank, said the UK should take a lead in research on carbon capture and storage (CCS).
Alluding to the US effort in the 1960s to put a man on the moon he advocated an "Apollo-type programme" to introduce 10 to 20 CCS pilot projects - which work by burying carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels underground - among OECD countries to develop the technology.
"This would allow coal-fired power plants that are currently being built to be modular and capable of having carbon capture retrofitted, and would show the world that we take the issue of climate change seriously, thus demonstrating real leadership. Without this technology we have a real problem."
He also said as coal burning is cleaned up to remove harmful sulphur pollution climate change would actually get worse. The sulphur aerosols are actually preventing some warming from taking place currently.
"This offsetting effect, which is equivalent to about 100 parts per million of carbon dioxide, will largely disappear if China and India follow the lead of the US and Europe in limiting sulphur emissions, the cause of acid deposition," he said.
© 2008 The Guardian
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87 Comments so far
Show AllKEM,
You're doing a great job explaining Anthropogenic Global Warming but I'd like to mention a few other websites that could be of use to folks over here.
Real Climate http://www.realclimate.org - This site is hosted by real climate scientists and has links for debunking the claims of the deniers of global warming and delayers for change. The main section is technical so that is why I recommend clicking on the START HERE tab and check out for beginners and the FAQ. It's a great resource!
Climate Progress http://www.climateprogress.org - This site is hosted by Joseph Romm, the author of, "The Hype About Hydrogen" and "Hell and Highwater, Global Warming The Solution and the Politics and What You Should Do." It helps debunk all of the deliberate misinformation going in the public and political realms over global warming, energy policy and the tire gauges vs. wells debate and occasionally humorous i.e. Paris Hilton ad countering McCain on Energy Policy (Who says we can't have fun saving the world)
Desmog Blog - http://desmogblog.com - A great source monitoring the antics of the deniers and delayers. It's complete with its own list of these deniers, their scientific backgrounds, or lack thereof, and most importantly their financial backers. If you see something from someone who makes a claim that doesn't fit the facts get their name and check them out here. A truly wonderful denier debunker!
Lomborg Errors Website - http://www.lomborg-errors.dk I added this site just for fun. This site specifically debunks the errors of one notorious denier named Bjørn Lomborg. He gets a lot attention because of a book he wrote which is an error littered screed on global warming called, "The Skeptical Environmentalist" Warning: The site does show some flaws and errors from Al Gore's film, "An Inconvenient Truth" but before you say, "Ah hah!" the site documents 2 flaws and 8 errors total and does not debunk global warming. Lomborg on the other hand towers in the lead with 110 errors, 208 flaws, 318 in total.
MI is freezing its butt off. Our high yesterday was 68. If global warming is going to freeze us, let's hurry the correction to this mess.
Write till you run out of ink ~IKE KAY~ but the Arctic is thawing faster than you can type. That's the issue and a ten year old who never went to school can see it and understand it. ~Matti~ is wrong and so are you.
I congratulate Matti,
His references and analysis of some here, who create more gas with their espousals than help in directions that people might take or think about for themselves to help this huge problem that has descended from our carbon-rich humanity poor atmosphere.
Joseph Stiglitz who writes here, an economist at Columbia University in New York, for those who don't know, writes about the economics of the Left and the Right in terms of the coming election in the USA and sums up the article, after an analyses of each with: it should not be difficult to decide.
It is as if he is speaking to a group fellow thinkers who will decide the coming election, instead of some of the jocks who speaking from high and low places are trying to tell us there is a serious problem out there and up there. Or the people whose understanding of economics comes largely from stroking their own bank accounts and 401ks. His comments, although economically based and not environmentally driven, unfortunately, are at the very basis of the whether we have under two or four degrees of warming in the environment and so the end of your children and the future generations that will be subject to the ravages of climate changes. Lets forget about the arguments of the royal rich who make there fortunes by burning and selling the stuff
Climate change and the next election are inextricably linked. It is not about economics alone but is about an energy policy that relies on fossil fuel and other polluting sources of energy that prop-up the world economy, or a radical departure toward clean energy production and an inclusiveness of all in the global economy. To have as many people as possible who could contribute to change in this direction, as opposed to the top one percent who want a continuation of the status quo. Supported by Ted Turner CNN and the Wolf Blitzer kind of propaganda that wants a continuation of the status quo. NO, NO, NO, a radical re-thinking and re-making of the present economy away from special interests and the merchants of greed who have brought this country and the world to this low is absolutely necessary for human survival. The USA if it is to take the moral lead again has to show from example!
While the Democrats are the party of the little left turn, they do not represent the kind of thinking that will be required to change the future direction of climate change. To do that we must change the present and that means a global depression until everything is re-tooled. There are not many of sufficient courage on the political scene today, although Obama is the best of the worst, that will be able to move the global thinking processes to that direction.
The way we might all help, if there are those of you out there who really want to help, is rather than swinging through the trees that are disappearing and coming off the challenge put by Matti above, is to bring this awareness of these inextricably linked ideas to as many as possible. To help change public and media discussions in your place wherever that might be or contribute to what people are doing by tying the discussion of climate change to economic direction of the Western World. The leading polluting economy in the world is USA and Wall Street. Its pollution has just been eclipsed by China, is there any wonder that the Olympics is taking place in China?
This is not a bashing of capitalism, no no heaven forbid, the sacred cow of the America, this is an assessment of an economy based in a (killer) economic reality that puts profit above humanities survival.
As far as my own efforts and credentials to speak to this subject I do all I say above politically and I am making a documentary dealing with this subject. Its time for some here to stop taking up the endless arguments and do some things themselves.
I totally misunderstood your comments ~Jungleboy~. I'm not real quick on the draw sometimes and I still didn't get it. LOL.
Kem, do you yell at your wife for backing you up?
I just think its hysterical! like standing up drunk to pee in a canoe (#1 cause of canoe fatalities)
Complaining you (Kem) are using his (mimi) tactics, my my. You know the ones he was bitching about previous.
mimi reminds me of a "scientist" I know who will argue more about the argument than the facts presented, even to the point of getting lost in the topic. You don't want to be like that huh?
Well ~Jungleboy~, I only refer to the scientists who have spent their entire adult lives studying the enviroment, the atmosphere and oceans and I don't have any trouble using those tactics and I do not see the similarity you spouted off, but be hysterical if that suits you, knock yourself out.
It desn't take any science or any scientists to visually observe that the Arctic and all of the world's glaciers are melting at an alarming rate BTW, so your science lesson and "defense of reality" was a total waste of your effort.
I'm not gonna argue with you there! I just think its hysterical! Complaining you are using his tactics, my my.
The author of that "technically scientific" article MIMICCS posted is a 19 year old political science student ~Jungleboy~ and the site that publioshed it is funded by big oil.
And MIMI is a loyal follower of Lyndon Larouche. Who is a brain damaged crackpot.
Hi everyone, In defense of reality, a few writers here and the truth, I have to have my peace. Science in its infancy today is still an assumed science, simple, and probably will be for as long as we live. Facts are still a build up of theory. "Water flows down hill", and up in the air to be part of the sky, to fall on our heads, it floats when frozen. Its assumed that we know all about it, but, that may not be the case, we shall see what the future has in store. We think we are so cool and smart now, but just one hundred years ago I don't believe we knew how to separate the atoms in water much less what an atom was. Our knowledge is just based on what is tangible, what can be measured, seen and felt, today. By no means is science perfectly accurate. It has nothing to do with tomorrow, it can only represent yesterday as today is our conclusion.
O.K. So we know nothing for sure. But based on what we might be right on, doesn't it make sense to be pro-active?
A free floating body in space cant really fall so our perception of falling really doesn't exist. We are really just drawn towards the earth. Flying really, but it is still assumed, you cant fly. But when you "think" you are going to "fall" its still a good idea to put your hands out and brace your self or "catch your balance" (in the case of CC or GW, "our balance") even if falling really doesn't exist. It is assumed the "landing" could hurt! Hmmm, science and politics, how similar....
Mimiccs, if you re-read the article you put up,(Climate Change: Breaking the "Political Consensus") the conclusion is mostly fine but the last line turns it into garbage by adding a personal viewpoint as a closing statement. Not very scientific, almost like he is using the Delphi effect.
I do like how he mentioned one of the many Dr. Hoaglands grandeurs and backs him up with his argument about the suns rays effecting the earth. Not to say it isn't "REAL"!!!
Great Mystery only knows! HEEHEEHEE!
What in hell is so special about your solution ~MATTI~? Get the word out and make sure EVERYONE is aware of your swell ideas.
~MATTI~ You are full of crap. I cannot count the times I have posted here at C/D, (over 300 times I'm certain) that we must fight the problem and stop burning fossil fuels and initiate a massive world-wide program to have truly clean energy and Nuclear energy is not one of the "clean" energy sources I favor.
Solar, wind, Geo-thermal, wave and tidal are viable, affordable, the technology is well proven and if we put our money where our mouths are, we could do it in eight years. We have to do that. And furthurmore, what I post here in regard to the "methane" issue is not MY opinions. I qote credible sources. Knock off your bullshit lies about what I think or say.
If one cares so much about excess CO2 admissions into the atmosphere from industrial civilization's burning of trapped carbon maybe one should get off the Internets and get to work planting trees and closing carbon-burning plants.
The main problem I have with folks like ~KEM PATRICK~ can be summed up in this quote from him:
--"...doing all they possibly can, to get the messsage out to their elected and our world leaders, and urge them to initiate sensible programs to stop burning coal and then phase out burning all fossil fuels."
~KEM~ believes that methane releases from the Arctic will likely spell the doom of not just modern, industrial, civilization but the Human Species as a whole. Furthermore, I have read statements of his alluding to his belief that Ocean methane release could spell doom to ALL life on Earth, period.
Yet, the above quote is his solution? His call to action?
His grandchildren and my children may witness the death of Humankind, and his solution may as well be "write your Congressman"?
That's my problem, and I'm guessing some other's as well.
Whether or not this current change -and predicted futures changes- in the overall Climate is "man-made" or at least "man-aggravated" is not of much importance to me as I think it is both fairly obvious that burning all this gunk must do SOMETHING to the atmosphere, AND that human observation and invented models will never give us a truly Holistic understanding of events BEFORE they happen.
But this whole "The Sky is falling! The Sky is falling! -so we should ask our 'leaders' to change how we power our horrid suburban lifestyles for us" just doesn't work for me.
Might I suggest that if the outlook is truly this grim, we should try thinking just, y'know...a LITTLE more radically than this?
I'm for the complete redesign, reorganization and rebuilding of our technocultural society in order to promote Democracy, to live Sustainably and Equitably -in both Energy and Resources, to improve not harm the Global Biosphere, and to elevate general Human understanding and capability.
I'm game for anything short of real violence to get this done.
And I don't even think a change in climate -whether catastrophic warming followed by catastrophic cooling or any other scenario- will destroy "civilization", let alone the Human Species.
So I guess my question to folks like ~KEM~ is:
Why do you seem to need to believe in an almost inevitable Apocolypse before you are willing to stand for even your milquetoast "solutions"?
There's also the matter of the over-focus on CO2 and the gross over-simplification of even what small part of this Dynamic Climate scientific observation and conjecture have allow some people to understand, but I won't get into that.
Have Fun,
-matti.
GW Deniers are the scum of the Earth. They must be aware of the harm they do and they do it purposefully.
Ephraim: Clearly you don't understand science. The crackpot label belongs on the other side. Your side and Gore's. I got quite a laugh.
8-8-08
CIVIL BEHAVIOUR
thanks a lot..........i don't have much choice here for english books, so get a friend of mine in the u.k. to send them over. however, he said it makes it easier if he knows the isbn number. he's already sent me 'seeds of deception' and 'crap at the environment' by mark watson. (not sure what that is yet) if it's any good i'll try to get it to you somehow. thanks again. coco
Coco,
Better late than never.....the ISBN for Under a Green Sky by Peter Ward is as follows 978-0-06-113791-4.
Most people lost thier understanding of the natural world a long time ago, they traded it for progress and civilization. This is where civilization leads, an artifical life without the connection to the life giving planet. Starting with time.
Thank you gentlemen, KEM, Peebles, & civil; I will be looking at the various links; your explanations were actually quite helpful too. It's great to get such feedback, but somewhat dishartening to realize you get so much more intelligent, creative, caring discussion here than from 99% of our supposed leaders.
This was a great discussion. I thought the Common Dreams readers have hit a tipping point.
We won't learn anything useful from MiMiCcs except how to live comfortably in denial. He doesn't want to believe there's anything dire about global warming or that it's even caused by human activity because that would mean he'd have to change a few things in his own life, and that makes him uncomfortable. Better to keep referring to crackpot science that barely exists any more to buttress his lame arguments. There are plenty still out there just like him and no amount of evidence is going to sway them from their skeptics perch. All you have to do when presented with compelling evidence is deny that it IS evidence. For MiMiCcs and his kind, denial will trump evidence every time.
Yes, COCO, but wasn't sure of the meaning, I am now .. LOL, good one.
If you read 'The Long Emergency', read it carefully and with a critical eye. I'd say its about 50% useful information and 50% garbage. Its a nice book for someone who doesn't have a clue that there is a problem coming. Kunstler's overheated hyperbole way of writing might wake up a few people. But in terms of detailed predictions of where the world is going and its analysis of alternative energy, much of it is garbage.
Read it, but like with anything, keep your brain engaged and be prepared to dismiss crap when the author is writing crap.
This article is way too sensible to ever be adopted.
I worked as a civil engineer for awhile. That means I know you do designs on stuff like storm drainage system based on the anticipated size of rainfall events. It would seem to be entirely sensible to start trying to adjust those models to the coming world of higher temperatures.
Right now, they are usually done based on historical data, and I'm not sure how often they are updated. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to go back to some old tables I used in the 90's and find that they are based on historic rainfall from say 1950 to 1970.
KEM, i know that. that's why i said THOSE and not HE...........did you see my earlier comment to you about your omnipotence?
~COCO~ When they write "those or "he" who shall not be named" ___ they are referring to me. I also suspect that that least three of the most prolific deniers are actually one person. Some writing style, word usage, etc gives them away.
CIVIL BEHAVIOUR
this is not the first 'bogus article' link THOSE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED have posted. they were wittering on about some bloody weatherman the other day............they are a bunch of 'offshore city bankers'.
MiMinn saya at 8:15pm
"Those looking to escape the consensus reality that we are all doomed, may go here.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9763"
If one follows the link one notices that the author of the piece is one Andrew G. Marshall. This "Andrew Marshall is a 19 year old political science student at Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia (BC)." Years and years of investigative journalism one should note.
The same Andrew G Marshall who in his written piece uses Timothy Ball to explain the justifiable doubt concerning global warming.
Timothy Ball.........here's just a short bio for all of you on the current status of said expert on global warming as quoted by MiMI
Ball is listed as a "consultant" of a Calgary-based global warming skeptic organization called the "Friends of Science" (FOS). In a January 28, 2007 article in the Toronto Star, the President of the FOS admitted that about one-third of the funding for the FOS is provided by the oil industry. In an August, '06 Globe and Mail feature, the FOS was exposed as being funded in part by the oil and gas sector and hiding the fact that they were. According to the Globe and Mail, the oil industry money was funnelled through the Calgary Foundation charity, to the University of Calgary and then put into an education trust for the FOS.
Ball is listed as an "Executive" for a Canadian group called the "Natural Resource Stewardship Project," (NRSP) a lobby organization that refuses to disclose it's funding sources. The NRSP is led by executive director Tom Harris and Dr. Tim Ball. An Oct. 16, 2006 CanWest Global news article on who funds the NRSP, it states that "a confidentiality agreement doesn't allow him [Tom Harris] to say whether energy companies are funding his group.
Ball retired from the University of Winnipeg in 1996 and a search of 22,000 academic journals shows that, over the course of his career, Ball has published 4 pieces of original research in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject of climate change. Ball has not published any new research in the last 11 years.
Please Mimi, feel free to quote Timothy Ball via Randy Andy any old time. We all get it.
So many of you out there think like the usual America first nonsense. it would be nice if those out here looking at this problem understood that it is a global problem, created largely by the western world and Wall St and all your 401ks and duped by the government to believe that this was your golden old-age
It is clear that fossil fuels will bury humanity yet the financial capitalist scrapping goes in the arctic to find more and business-as-usualcorporatins do more of the same thing? Wall St. will win a dead planet and humanity will cease to exist. Instead of global reshaping of economics with human equity in mind and a direction toward an 80% cut in all carbon emissions in the next seven years. The only answer to possible survival.
My America first friends sit back in satisfaction with American Hegemony as your cushion while the developing world continues to sink this planet! It will take a concerted effort of all people. The Pentagon-Wall street mentality displayed on these blogs and in media is sickening in the face of a global disaster taking place! Given the fact that the Western world has contributed 50% to the problem.
MiMi,
Interesting, but patronizing, response. It sounds as though the bottom line is economics, especially competition with China. In other words, a deadlock: we can't do anything because China isn't doing anything.
You've stated the facts for why you deny global warming (and the fact that cheap energy is not uniformly or perpetually available--peak oil). The thing is, your denial of global warming and your efforts to convince others that global warming is BS are blocking actions that could stop global warming (note: actions, not fear-mongering). Why do you think these actions are inappropriate? Might not these actions be suitable even if there was global cooling?
Maybe you don't think CO2 is a problem, but why do you think that the behaviors producing CO2 (especially the escalating use and dependence on fossil fuels and resultant pollutants, including CO2) are ok?
What if you are wrong and your interpretation of the data is wrong? What's your back-up plan? BushJr is a huge denier of global warming, but look at how he's outfitted his little hideaway in Crawford.
Finally, what sort of evidence do you think could change your mind? All scientists should be open to reevaluating their conclusions in light of new data. David Attenborough (BBC nature films) was stoutly against global warming, but changed his mind after seeing four graphs: human population growth, human fossil fuel consumption, global CO2, and global temperatures.
www.planetextinction.com
First, a huge 'thank you!' to all you smart, caring people for this intelligent conversation. I've felt like I was on the deck of the Titanic steaming toward the iceberg. At least now, I know who is up here on deck with me. If world leaders had taken you all seriously much earlier - we might have had time to change course. Particularly appreciate the scientific updates that are translated into understandable terms.
Perhaps the reference to "He who must not be named" is from the Harry Potter series, one of the really great political allegories describing our culture's clash with megalomaniac evil & authority. The more timid characters will never say Lord Valdimort's name aloud. J.K.Rawlings is one of the true fighters of the late 20th & early 21st century - she greatly deserves all her success. The other is 'LORD OF THE RINGS' about Hitler & WWII.
If you want a good docu-drama version of the methane hydrates, battles for the seas, etc., a translated German book called 'THE SWARM' will entertain and inform. It is NOT as hokey as its title.
And for the very few deniers here, you might read & research 'THE LONG EMERGENCY', a condensation of the near-future "challenges" that face the planet and the human race. Gut-wrenching, but you need to understand.
shokulan- If you get most of your news from the telly, I understand your confusion.
My opposition to AGW doomsday certainty is not denial of AGW, although I am a skeptic, it is denial of the AGW doomsday certainty.
AGW has become a pseudo scientific theory built up for political and financial reasons. Those behind it on the political side are neo-malthusians of the same ilk that formed the eugenics movement 100 years ago. Making energy unavailable or expensive kills people. They convince people with terrorist tactics that scare them. They prevent intelligent discussion with name calling and paid hacks who comment on these blogs to disrupt these discussions.
I am an Engineer, and have studied science courses. I can learn. I have studied this as best as I could, and have convinced myself the science is very primitive, and the doomsday scenarios are not supported by evidence or data, just computer climate models that have yet to proven they can predict climate. AGW is an unproven hypothesis. Good science encourages a healthy dose of skepticism. Consensus is a political term, and consensus science is not good science as it discourages skepticism. Some even call for it to be made illegal to question it (scientists are still skeptical of some of Einstein theories BTW), much as in the days of Galileo when he was jailed for being a heritic (he claimed the earth revolved the sun, what a fruit cake, the consensus said the sun revolved around the world)
The most important areas of climate such as precipitation systems and solar forcing, by IPCC 's own admission, has a low level of understanding by the scientists. CO2 is a GHG and contributes to some warming, but the most important GHG is water vapour, and the feedbacks, positive and negative, as expressed by precipitation systems, is not understood, and there is little historical data, but there is some evidence that temperatures over the last 10,000 years were as much as 10 deg F warmer than today. When I grew up in the 60's, people were predicting an ice age. Since the late 70's temperatures have warmed, and evidence suggests we may be entering another cooling phase. Climate has always been changing from one state to another.
Sometimes cold, sometimes warm.
There has not yet been a single peer reviewed scientific study which has ruled out natural climate variability as the cause of most of our recent warmth - for instance, a small change in globally averaged cloud cover.
The fact is, science doesn't understand why these natural climate variations occur, and can not reliably distinguish between natural and possible human influences on global temperatures.
Some will say that no peer reviewed scientific study has disproved the claim that global warming is manmade. But this is because of the fact that our long term global climate observations (e.g. of cloud characteristics) are not good enough to measure the small changes that might offer an alternative explanation for our current warmth.
My plants argue that CO2 is not pollution. Lets not confuse the issue with other harmful pollutants. I am for a healthy environment. China has a very unhealthy environment, the smog is so thick you can cut with with a knife. I recently lived 5 years in Shanghai and Hong Kong, and two years hence, despite being in a cleaner environment am still coughing some. China is not going to do anything about their CO2, and cuts made in the US will be offset by their development, and will force the rest of our manufacturing to leave in order to be competitive.
You should not accept what I say, as you should always question everything. The greatest obstacle to truth is thinking you already know it.
If in the end you still believe what you believe, thats fine with me, so long as you at least considered the alternative view.
Kem,
It took a little digging but,
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2558946.html
shows at least some scientists are thinking like me.
Now all we have to do is get it out safely and the arabs can drink their oil.
Global warming is slow suicide, nuclear war is quick suicide. People will take their chances with the slow approach. The powers-that-be will avoid nuclear war if at all possible since they will be targeted.
SHOKULAN
i agree with you wholeheartedly.............what would be the harm if we stopped all this polluting?
CIVIL BEHAVIOUR
do you have the isbn number for 'under a green sky'?
HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED
you've been elevated to omnipotent proportions by the deniers.............congratulations.
"Personally, I think that there will be a world-changing nuclear war before the worst effects of climate change are realized."
Well, that would be one way to tip the climatic balance with nuclear winter and simultaneously remove most or all of the causes of GW (people). Maybe the Earth is self regulating after all? (shudder)
Lizard,
Then much of our disagreement must be about the definition of pollution. Pollution, essentially, is an excess. In the case of the planet, CO2 is pollution because there is definitely an excess of CO2 (not to mention SOx, NOx, all sorts of heavy metals, human waste, garbage, etc. etc.)
Within our bodies and on our planet, too much of something is just as bad as too little. Aspirin in small doses can alleviate pain. In large doses, it can alleviate pain permanently--it kills. We've got the same thing going on at a planetary level. We humans are pooping in our drinking water and spewing exhaust into our air and it's now having longer effects than elementary school kids dying of asthma attacks, it may well just permanently eliminate asthma attacks by eliminating kids and elementary schools.
How many of the global-warming naysayers are scientists? Astonishingly few.
How many people are scientists? Surprisingly few.
So, for most people, it boils down to what they hear (usually from the telly) and whether they think it is good or bad (which the telly tries to tell them).
This gets back to my original question--what are the benefits of denying global warming?
So, you diehard global warming deniers here on the list, tell me: why is it so important to you?
Here is one global warming proponent who is willing to listen to you. Don't send me links and evidence, what I want are your personal reasons for why you reject global warming and how this rejection benefits you and yours.
You do? ___ Not me G and D. I'm gettin my ass outta that theatre. .... LOL
I got your good point however. We often don't act on serious issues until it's too late.
Go read a book Lizard, you are incredibly ignorant about the issue.
Today is like this: We are in a crowded theater and someone hollers fire. We look around and see that the flames have consumed ten percent of the people yet we just sit there and do nothing. Crisis no longer motivates people to action.
Shokulan: Science is not about bad and good, it is about approaching the truth. The discussion is about what the truth is, not what is better for humans. Pollution is bad for us and for the planet. Nobody advocates polluting.
I see lots of evidence that there is no man-made global warming. I see no evidence that there is. Al Gore presents conjectures, not evidence.
Here's my question: Why deny global warming?
Even if it turns out to be false, the result of responding to global warming (i.e. shifting away from hydrocarbons) is all good. At a minimum, it will improve air quality and alleviate those suffering from asthma. Also, coping with global warming will stimulate development of new lifestyles and technologies, thereby stimulating the economy.
Frankly, global warming looks like another good example of Pascal's paradox*. If it turns out to be a hoax, then no harm done and possibly some good. If it turns out to be true, then we've the satisfaction of knowing we've done all we could to to mitigate things.
So, I'm trying to understand how people benefit (and their kids and grand kids benefit) by denying global warming. All this fuss and denial cannot just be because people are addicted to their cars.
*Pascal's paradox was originally about God. Pascal decided that he may as well believe in God as not. If there is no God, then what he believed did not matter. If there is a God, then he's in the good.
Frak 1569: 4deg. centigrade above pre-industrial levels. Globally.
I see our favorite deniers did show up here, had little to say except post links that deny things such as this article states is not
factual and or that ~PAULK~ is wrong etc. I am very thankful they say that I, ("the person who shall not be named"), is wierd.
For if they believe that of me, where does it place them?
As for me, it seems that Earth has gone through gazillions of climate changes over the eons, and as a planet, has every right to do so. Are we humans adding to the current phase of that process by doing stupid stuff (burning fossil fuels, etc.)? No doubt.
But, I'm guessing maybe if we stopped doing stupid stuff tomorrow - everybody, everywhere on the face of the Earth -the old lady will continue to warm gradually, before she decides to cool down in the next two or three millenia.
Maybe my great grandchildren will get to die for my ecological sins (which, compared to those of many "deniers" are rather miniscule). Maybe not. I'm pretty sure that if everyone who reads and posts on CD plants a garden and holds hands to sing kum-ba-ya we'll be able to keep that temp steady at an increase of only 4C degrees. And, we'll be saved. - Until The Rapture!!
From ~frank1569~ (August 7th, 2008 4:33 pm):
---------------------------- START QUOTE:
What isn't revealed is this: 2 or 4 degrees above what? What is the starting point, the base temp used as the "norm"?
Because:
"The global land surface temperature was the warmest on record for March (2008), 3.3°F above the 20th century mean of 40.8°F."
That's nearly 4 degrees up, yes?
"The monthly temperature for Alaska was an average 3.8°F above the 1971-2000 mean."
That's nearly 4 degrees up, too, yes?
So - are we already just half-a-degree shy of the 4 degree mark or not???
---------------------------- END QUOTE
Hi Frank - first of all, I almost ALWAYS love reading your posts here on CD. Extremely lucid, especially about politics - so many thanks for being here. You are right on 99% of the time, IMO.
To your questions: as someone subsequently mentioned, these are Fahrenheit vs. Celsius. ALSO - according to the quote you provided, they are talking about *land* surface temperatures, not all surfaces. When you average all surfaces, including oceans and lakes, you wind up with a much lower number - which as I recall is around 0.9C or so over pre-industrial global average surface temperature. ("The average global air temperature near the Earth's surface increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the 100 years ending in 2005," according to the wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming.) Land, of course, tends to warm at a faster rate than water.
The 4C increase mentioned in the article is 4 times the overall warming seen to date, and very close to the 5C of warming between the last ice age and the present interglacial period. As said in the article, that puts us into a totally different climate regime. We have NO IDEA how - or if - we will be able to survive the yet-unknown consequences of that size a global change.
I want to take issue with the following part of the article:
"In the UK, the most significant impact would be rising sea levels and inland flooding. Climate modellers also predict there would be an increase in heavy rainfall events in winter and drier summers."
I think this is drastically oversimplifying the potential consequences of a 4C rise in global average temperature. People continue to focus on the physical ramifications of climate change, such as weather events and extremes. What we do not know, and cannot predict, is what happens as the current balance (relative equilibrium) of species is upset. There may be enormous disruptions in the food chain. There may be mind-boggling explosions of disease. As one climate expert I saw back in the mid-'90s said, it's the bugs and microbes that will win when change happens. They have much shorter life cycles and therefore can adapt to these changes much faster than more complex species with longer lifespans and generation cycles - especially humans. That is the *really* scary part. And what about ancient pathogens long locked up in frozen ice and tundra that may be released in the process? Once again, we have no idea how these will play out in the scheme of things (which, by the way, is another reason why we should not be experimenting with genetics and GMO's).
I observe that in my own lifetime I can watch the attitude go from complete obliviousness (the 50's), to callousness, to denial, to "Oh, shit"!
For geo522 at 7:26pm
Your link for the article by Marc Morano......
Here's a little background
Marc Morano is communications director for the U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. Morano commenced work with the committe under Senator James Inhofe, who was majority chairman of the committee until January 2007. In December 2006 Morano launched a blog on the committee's website that largely promotes the views of climate change sceptics."
Well, there went any shred of credibility you may have had
.
MiMiCcS,
Thanks for the eagleforum piece....very interesting and worth saving, referring to and sharing with my thoughtful friends.
re: Methane I am reminded of Egg Salad and Tang from Saturday Night Live, many moons ago.
re: Nuclear War and Nuclear winter and the near destruction of all life, US = being the biggest parasite on the planet...kinda biblical, like the flood. In spite of any natural extreme fluctuations in climate/weather, we ignore or even just doubt the signs and our part in it, and WHOOSH...we're outa here! If it goes that way, maybe Earth can heal herself and life will re-establish itself. If some of Mankind survives to reproduce, will they finally get the message? Will they be mutated or have to live underground like the Troglodites?
MiMiCcS: Thanks for the link about the Delphi Technique, one can certainly see the parallels here with all the mind games played by THE ONE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED. In this case, however, I think we are experiencing the effects of a singular pathology. It would be interesting to try to find the psychological description of an individual who pursues this "facilitator" role as a function of personal obsession or need and not, certainly in this case, by occupation.
I'm sure there are examples of this type of personality in literature and film. Here is a link to the top 50 Dystopian films, although I'm thinking specifically of an oldie: Things to Come (1936) with Ralph Richardson's portrayal of The Boss, "Their city Everytown--obviously London-- becomes wrecked by a war featuring tanks, a magnificent war march by Bliss, and the end of civilization. The second portion finds people living in the wreckage of what had been the city under a "Boss", played with bravura by Ralph Richardson, whose woman, lovely Margaretta Scott, is as fascinating a dreamer as he is a concrete-bound dictator type. He is trying to rebuild old WWI airplanes so he can attack a nearby hill tribe to complete his petty kingdom."
Of course, H.G. Wells did not, to my knowledge, envision an internet cyberspace in which almost any bully with a powerful inferiority complex can attempt to subvert free speech and the free thinking that might grow in that fertile soil.
"The rebellion occurs when the child perceives the authority as wrong."
Well said, rtdrury. Not to quibble, but I think the rebellion occurs when the child says "No, I won't!"
However, let's be clear - we are not children. In reality, children have little choice - they are captive and dependent on their elders. Again - we are not children. We see that authority is wrong and we have the power to do something about it, we just don't know what.
Protesting is one way of saying, "No, I won't!," however, it rarely accomplishes much, other than releasing energy and emotions. It has its place, but times are getting more desperate by the day. We, not being children, must find another way of rebelling. We must find a place where authority is vulnerable and then hit it hard.
Well, let's consider this: Questions: Since we live in a corporate/capitalist/money-based system, where do we have the most leverage for rebellion? What is the one way we can affect the most pressure on the whole system? What action is not yet illegal and would work, and has, 100 percent of the time? Answer: Withholding as much money from the system as we possibly can. Money is the life-blood of this system, and withholding it from the market, especially the distant, corporate market, is the major way that we have left to rebel successfully.
Home gardens, sustainability groups, permaculture classes, lending groups, barter chapters, and more are all ways of taking back power and exerting the maximum influence on the system. If we each do what we can to cut back, to buy less and buy local (and organic) when we can, to grow and make and mend our own, the system will change - it will have no choice but to change. And not just change, but change in the direction that we are pointing it in.
If we think that it's too late, that only the big shots and the pols can do anything, then, in my opinion, we are doomed. They are part and parcel of the system, the authority. On the other hand, if we finally step into adulthood and realize that we've had the power all along (shhh, the elite don't want you to know this - just keep shopping), we begin to win.
Technology will not resolve the climate crisis, and people are incapable, to date, of changing rapidly enough to mitigate it.
Dramatic life changes will result. The choice is still life or death, and people are choosing death.
No hope here. Sorry to interrupt the congregation.
Those looking to escape the consensus reality that we are all doomed, may go here.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9763
Those who want to know about the delphi technique practiced by your facilitator, you know who he his. You may read this link.
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/1998/nov98/focus.html
DarrellM,
Here are some good sites to help you understand it better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_Gun_Hypothesis
This is another great site http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080528140255.htm
If you want even more good info, a tedious but informative read "Under a Green Sky" by Peter Ward.
Hope this gives you a better idea.
IF you would LIKE to hear a little truth and reason:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/nasa-urged-to-debunk-the-current-hysteria-over-global-warming.html
frank1569,
The difference is F vs. C. You are quoting F degrees but the article is talking about C degrees. Five degrees C equals 9 degrees F, so the 2008 global surface difference you reference of 3.3 degrees F is about 1.9 degrees C.
couple references above,in posts, about nuclear war. Oddly enough, maybe that and a resulting NUCLEAR WINTER is our only hope of stopping this roller coaster? Or, is that just too too crazy!!
~DARRELL~ I'm not a scientist or even very smart, but I'll attempt to explain it in "stupid" terms if you cannot understand the technical jargon, which I have a problem with also, but I do understand stupid. ___ So does my wife.
Okay, picture a twelve square foot of ground. Over millions of years, tree leaves fall onto the soil, weeds grow and die, over time the mulch gets thicker and it sinks deeper into the ground and naturally it decays. That decaying process causes methane gas, or Ch4 to form and it seeps out of the ground and enters our atmophere where over time it becomes Co2.
We need a certain amount of Co2 in our atmosphere, but not too much. Right now from humanity burning fossil fuels for the past 200+ years, it's too much. Nature cannot handle it. Humanty annually is putting excess Co2 into the atmosphere, which is equivelant to 17,000 volcanos. Refrence the link I posted.
Now the same thing happens in the oceans, where seaweed and dead plankton sink to the ocean's floors and the decaying of that matter begins over time and Ch4 forms. It will also seep into the atmosphere, UNLESS, unless the water is both deep and cold.
Then the methane just clings to the decaying organic matter. Over billions of years in time there is a lot of decaying matter and a lot of methane. It's not ice there in the ocean's floor beds, it is the cold water and water pressure that keeps that massive accumulation of Ch4 safely locked up.
In the Arctic, the same thing happens. In the summer, there are plants that live and die, or at some period of time in the long ago past, the Arctic area was all ocean. At one time the entire globe was totally covered with water. That lasted for millions of years. Ch4 was developing in the oceans floors then.
At some time in Earth's history, the Arctic region became covered with ice and then it thawed a lot and it is now as it has been for several million years and there is perma- frost, which is icy cold all year round. That's why it's called perma-frost. That perma-frost is actully mostly decaying organic matter and is full of Ch4. As long as it stays cold, the methane stays right there in the perma-frost safe and sound. When the perma-frost thaws, the once trapped methane gas will escape into the atmosphere.
Now methane is 25 times as potent as a Greenhouse gas as Co2 is. So a large amount of methane suddenly escaping into the atmosphere will cause more global warming and then the feed back phenom begins and it get warmer and more methane escapes, which causes further warming. A vicious cycle.
Then when the oceans get warm enough, their methane escapes and then we are not talking about deep methane, we are talking "deep shit" and we will be in it.
I do hope that answers your question ~Darrell~. But you really should read that book you bought for a better much and more technical explination. Or, just read the link I posted. That says it all. And it ain't funny.
Oops, I see JB alreadhy answered while I was typing my bullshit.
Methane is the product of anaerobic conversion (decomposition of carbon-based matter with no oxygen) over time. The decomposing vegetation which grew on the sea floor dies and the methane gas it produces stays underwater, due the pressure and temperature difference between the water below and above. Should the ocean temperatures increase, the conveyor-belt type effect might slow down (like the currents running from the Gulf of Mexico to Europe as described in Gore's documentary.)
Methane gas is held in the ocean in what is called a giant sink. Temperatures can radically affect the currents, and the ability of the ocean to hold the methane gas. Forests act in a similar way, grabbing huge amounts of CO2 out of the air. Rainforests are especially good, as they contain so many plants (hungry for CO2). That's why PALM OIL plantations are a dire threat--this was a product of the "no transfats" effort :(.
Now there are also these huge peat bogs in formerly colder regions that have massive amounts of methane from all the decomposition processes from millions of years. The methane is twenty times worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas and is BUBBLING up in arctic areas where ice has warmed the permafrost, allowing the gas to escape. This is the runaway freight train scenario--how long can we have temps go up before momentum is unstoppable and methane (hydrate) emerges from the sea floor and thawing bogs?
A lot of news on global warming scenarios surprising no one here. I think the energy providers want to minimize oil production because they know the dollar can only devalue and make oil more valuable (although not in real terms.)
Despite the current Administration's ties to oil (and the big run-up in its price,) the sooner Peak Oil arrives, the need for change will be more apparent. Rising prices mean oil alternatives become more attractive, a key secondary benefit to higher oil prices.
Now about Iraq: our government never really intended to drain Iraq dry (as their $80b surplus attests.) US policy was to prevent the Chinese and others from taking it, or letting Saddam sell his in Euros. The Carter doctrine says the US will not tolerate any other power from interfering with the flow of oil from the Mideast. This is for obvious reasons: our entire US economy is dependent on oil. We need to get away from it. Bush is using market forces--a euphemism for doing nothing to lead and hoping prices will force people to consume less (while making his sheik friends and cronies some large cash...)
All right, since everyone's talking about this now. Kem, I was thinking of asking you this. I picked up that book you mention even before hearing hear about it. I didn't finish it, but I do remember the first chapter. A real interesting time travel chapter about an individual dying animal and a dying world - at least thats how I remember it, which may be all screwed up.
Even then I just can't understand the methane storage under the oceans mechanism. I tryed reading up on it in Wikipedia, I think it explained it well, but I don't get it.
The methane is down there in ice deposits? Why did the methane originally go into the ice? Ice floats, how would it get to the bottom of the ocean? Then the methane ice got covered with sediment and buried?
I can't get a mental picture of what's being described.
~WOLF~ If you can picture methane hydrates spaced out across the entire Arctic ocean and the perma-frost of the Arctic, including much of Siberia, the upper portions of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, how are you going to gather even one percent of the methane?
It isn't like a natural gas well or the old Staten Island garbage dumps, where they collect SOME of the methane in special pipes as it rises to the surface areas.
It would be similar to someone asking you to collect all of the grains of sand that were discolored, from every ocean beach in the world. I cannot think of a better example for an anology.
Anyway forget it, because it is not possible to collect the ocean's and arctic's methane and put it into storage tanks. There isn't enough metal availabe to mankind to make enough tanks. It's (millions times billions) of tons of methane.
No one is going to live forever either WOLF, but we do not have to commit suicide. And continuing to burn "coal" is suicide the slow way. It's gonna get faster pretty damn soon unless we stop burning it.
OK, there is a gazillion cubic feet of methane in the Arctic and another gazillion cubic feet else where in the world. Now I know they use methane from the staten Island land fill in place of natural gas in parts of NYC. We can drill for natural gas, liquify natural gas and ship natural gas, WHY can't we do the same for methane which if there is as much as predicted it will last 1000 years or more. Save what oil we have for plastics (like the keyboard you and I are typing on) and all the other uses (besides power) we use it for. Propane fuels cars and buses here in Az WHY not methane? Replace coal and nuclear powered electrical generating plants with methane fired plants. Kem says we can't, I don't want to say he's wrong BUT the only thing I know that is impossible is to (physically) live forever.
I dunno ~FRANK~. All I know is, the Arctic is thawing at an alarming rate with no letup in sight and it is now projected to be ice free within five years or LESS. I personally believe we humans are in VERY serious trouble, due to that unarguable with any credence, fact.
What isn't revealed is this: 2 or 4 degrees above what? What is the starting point, the base temp used as the "norm"?
Because:
"The global land surface temperature was the warmest on record for March (2008), 3.3°F above the 20th century mean of 40.8°F."
That's nearly 4 degrees up, yes?
"The monthly temperature for Alaska was an average 3.8°F above the 1971-2000 mean."
That's nearly 4 degrees up, too, yes?
So - are we already just half-a-degree shy of the 4 degree mark or not???
KEM PATRICK
yes, i do know what those brits eat..........that's why i left there 25 years ago. and thanks for the birthday greeting. we're having an 'inner peace, global peace' 24 hour sit in meditation here for 3 days starting tomorrow with all kinds of activities/music/international cuisine etc. (hope there's no british food.) so will have a look at that.
little drops of water make a mighty ocean................
webwalk-you make a good point about consumerism. It's a tough current to fight against for most people.
My feeling has always been that if we want mass change in belief systems/government/culture-it has to start with the wee children. Don't just schlep them to lessons/sports/organized activities; educate them in the ways of the world. Don't leave that education up to schools, churches or whatever.
My girls have been composting, recycling, gardening, reusing, etc. since they were small. It's "normal" for them and they talk to their peers about it. My sixteen year old activiely engages her peers, at school, in discussions about politics. She's led letter writing campaigns. No help from me, she doesn't need it because she's been raised around it. It's "normal".
Her 12 year old sister has been known to collect compostable food from her friends' homes and bring it here after finding out they do not have a compost bin. One of her friend's parents asked us where to get one because of it.
Our 9 year old can join right in with adults in conversations about current events and the environment. She's super concerned about global warming and is a little "electricity nazi" at our home and her friends. He rbest friend's mom switched to CFLs after a discussion they had.
I think that if we continue to make our children aware of what is going on and how it affects them and make it clear that no matter how old they are, they MATTER and can do something, then we'll see some real change.
rtdrury 3:24 p.m.
Yes, thanks for the additional perspective, i hope my focus on each of our individual actions does not give the impression that i think we should ignore political and economic institutions. We should FORCE CHANGES in "our" political and economic institutions, and hold the "leaders" directly accountable.
Thank you ~WEBWALK and RTDRURY~
If any deniers show up here and deny the Arctic is thawing after reading ~Paulk's~ post, I'll shit in my pants.
We're at a crossroad and there are two options to choose from - one good, one bad. The bad option is to place the burden of climate change mitigation on the people. The good option is to place the burden of claim change on the elites who created it. Yes, we have to point fingers. Yes, we have to coerce a change of behavior. Yes, many people believe that coercion accomplishes nothing. This is the basis behind the anti-torture laws, and widely held beliefs about human relations in general. Children are turned into rebellious misfits by coercion.
But it really depends on power relations. An authority with power over the child must be restrained from coercion. The rebellion occurs when the child perceives the authority as wrong. But when the balance of power is more even, e.g. when a child is actively challenging the parent's authority without regard to fairness, then reasonable people understand that coercion becomes the only choice. Only when a person is trying to do the right thing does one have a right to free will. When a person does the wrong thing deliberately or in willful ignorance, then one forfeits the right to free will. This distinction hasn't been considered in the public dialog on the behavior of elites and its omission compromises our ability to gain widespread support for anti-corruption, anti-imperialism, anti-oppression rules.
The elites are deviously exploiting our confusion on this matter, so let's clear up the confusion. Elites have to face the fact that the people will not tolerate oppression, imperialism, corruption. Those who put selfish, zero-sum interests ahead of the public interests will pay for climate change mitigation, or will be ostracized from the society, or both.
And,
To echo what Kem says above about the deniers:
Even if the deniers "successfully" turn this thread into a long confusing mess...
Every person reading this has their own life and their own choices. Our lives and our choices (mostly) do not take place in the Common Dreams comment area. When we log off and leave the idiotic morass of the deniers behind, we can live our lives and make choices that actually address the real crises we live in.
That is what will make us feel like we can do something - by actually struggling to do something. Not by "winning" an on-line "argument" against people who are either fools or evil.
And, as a terrible cynic myself, i'm afraid this also applies to the much more common theme here of "it's hopeless, no one can do anything, just look at the obvious array of historical and social forces lined up against us, we're doomed...".
Yes we are probably doomed to witness (or die in) the fundamental disruption of life and human civilization, with the short-term die-off of at least a big chunk of present humanity, but y'know, each of us is born to die anyway, and the Earth itself has a finite life span, and the entire amazing experience of life here is an astonishing gift and a blessing, and no matter how clear everything appears the fact always remains that we do not actually know how the future will play out until it is actually playing out, and we do not know what we can accomplish, and history has repeatedly brought shocking surprises that went against what all the smart people and cynics "knew", and in any event, what the hell else are we going to do but fight?
Actually, methane gas is a colorless and odorless gas, it's the decaying plant life where methane is produced that smells like a sewer. Now farts are a slightly differnt matter, there the gas also allows the odor of the digesting food in the guts to escape. Try a few hard boiled eggs and popcorn with beer.
On a more SERIOUS note: Once again, for any who have never had the pleasure of reading this three minute time to read, and very important article. The warnings of the highly qualified author to write such information, are coming to pass.
Also, try to find the book titled, ___ "When Life Nearly Died,___ penned by the distinguished paleontologist, Michael J. Benton.
http://www.energybulletin.net/3647.html
maybe this is the kind of something we can look forward to when the methane is realeased from the arctic:
http://www.sveurop.org/gb/articles/Lake%20Nyos.htm
and for a bit of 'light' entertainment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmysVoRBgyA
PAULK
thanks for the methane update. but i bet he said something stonger than 'ooh it smells'.............
Yes,
The need for immediate change in industrial human activities and associated consumerism has been clear to me since 1970, when i was 11 years old. For whatever it is worth, i've never driven a car, and i flew on an airplane only once, just to prove that i'm not avoiding it out of personal fear. Somehow, my "lack" of driving and flying has not ruined my life... but clearly, the driving and flying of so much stuff and so many people IS ruining our Earth.
Hopefully the need for IMMEDIATE change is becoming crystal-clear to millions of people, and soon we will reach the "critical mass" analogy where the social reaction takes on a life of its own and becomes rapid and unstoppable.
Each of us has choices - we can dream of a technical, governmental, or corporate "fix" that will enable us to continue to live in a consumerist orgasm of industrial production...
Or we can stop buying ANYTHING that we do not literally NEED.
Produce as much food and living diversity as we can on the land that we have access to.
And learn the skills of TAKING CARE OF ONE ANOTHER, and MAKING DECISIONS TOGETHER. These are the "technologies" that we need.
NOT the "clean coal" technologies that the scientist in the article is pushing for.
To answer the "alarmist" questions posed by lapaz000 at 2:13 p.m. - well you pretty much answered it yourself, "short of a global, democratic, humanistic, compassionate, socialist revolution in the next decade, the latter part of the 21st century is going to be a kind of hell to live in". Not sure i would use all the same specific adjectives you use, but we need POPULAR MOVEMENTS and UPRISINGS. Not only "against" processes and institutions that produce more atmospheric carbon, but "for" democracy, life, and our common humanity, and "against" all war machines, state and corporate domination, patriotism and fascism, and consumerism.
Who's gonna give up consumerism today in the face of the looming crises we see? Who's gonna reject state and corporate domination? Who's gonna recognize our common humanity? Who's gonna organize to resist the war machine in your part of the world? Who's gonna reject patriotism? Who's willing to fight and die for what is good and true, in the face of terrible odds? Who's willing to face the obvious crises that are no longer "in the future" but beginning to play out in real time? At what point does an individual drop their "normal" life and step into the dangerous truth?
At what point does public consciousness achieve "critical mass" and dramatically shift the direction of social forces?
What steps can individuals, families, and communities attempt, that might help move the larger social consciousness toward "critical mass"?
Hi~ COCO~ "Happy birthday" to you kid.
The Brits should have been fully aware of methane releaes long ago, you ever see the food they eat?? ___ LOL.
I'd say that nuclear war would have to begin within five to eight years ~LAPAZ000~ and a major nuclear war may over time kill off much of humanity, but it will not come close to doing what the "soon to come" release of the ocean's methane will accomplish.
And ~PAULk's~ post here is very important and everyone who cares should heed what he offered.
ANY, any, ANY ___ who ignore, or brush off, or deny climate change, which is the DIRECT RESULT of "global warming", are either obtuse or stupid, or horribly ignorant about the issue, or have a monetary interest to continue burning coal.
Those who post denying comments are in my opinion, among the worst of the worst and deserve absolutly NO respect what-so-ever. I think of them in the same light as selfish, cruel, souless killers. The scum of the earth.
Those who are not sure if humanity is responsible for global warming are not the same as the outright scum-bag deniers, who attempt to corrupt threads such as this with their detracting lies and sly word usage designed to confuse the issue.
If any have young children or grand children and love them and wish they have ANY hope for a future, they should be doing all they possibly can, to get the messsage out to their elected and our world leaders, and urge them to initiate sensible programs to stop burning coal and then phase out burning all fossil fuels. And the time to act is running out.
Interestingly, the article gives no time scale for these events.
KEM, once he gets round to reading this article can have a field day with the lack of timeposts. "4C rise in temperature, it's happening now!! We're all going to die!!!!!!" God, no, KEM. :(
I hate to sound alarmist, but nothing is going to force the world's governments, specifically the rich governments, from enacting all possible measures to eliminate carbon emissions. I mean, think about in: the US is fighting one Oil War in Iraq, a war in Afghanistan to provide a foothold in energy rich Central Asia-- wars that are not going to end for some time. Wars that are themselves huge carbon emitters (the Pentagon is the world's largest user of petroleum). Will the US and its client oil corporations be driven from Iraq anytime soon? It is doubtful.
Are the Arab petro-sheikhs going to stop pumping out oil, even as they will be raking in trillions of dollars in the next decades?
Are the leftist regimes in Latin America going to stop exploiting their natural resources-- as much of their populations want, actually-- if they are not compensated to do so?
Are the state capitalist Russian authoritarians, who have direct ties to the state energy monopolies, going to take a pay cut?
Are Western oil corporations going to be led by responsible human beings and take the lead in funding research for carbon-free energy? Actually, it would probably be illegal under US law for them to do so, because US prohibits corporations from spending shareholder dollars on endeavors that won't lead to profits.
Are coal-reliant China and India going to stop development dead in its tracks?
According to many scientists, carbon emissions need to nearly eliminated in the next decade to prevent the worst case, 4 C rise in global temperature. It's quite plain to see that short of a global, democratic, humanistic, compassionate, socialist revolution in the next decade, the latter part of the 21st century is going to be a kind of hell to live in-- mainly for non-North American and -European countries. Rich countries, as this article shows, are going to be able to adapt. Europeans and Americans aren't going to starve to death. But what about the rest of the billions of people?
Personally, I think that there will be a world-changing nuclear war before the worst effects of climate change are realized.
What say you world?
This seems like an appropriate time for an up-to-date methane forecast.
The Arctic ocean consists of two sections now--all of the ocean north of 80 degrees latitude and the ocean south of 80 degrees. The ocean south of 80 degrees latitude, including the important continental shelves north of the Yukon, Alaska and all of Siberia's vastness, has been ice-free and warming up for quite a while. That's about half of the Arctic Ocean. Surf's up sometimes. The Northwest passage has been open for a few days now, for all you eco-tourist cruise ship operators who want to survey the damage.
Ah for just one time I would try the Northwest Passage
And find the hand of Franklin reaching for the Beaufort Sea
Tracing one warm line through a land so wide and savage...
The ocean north of 80 degrees is still "ice covered", which means the ice is thin and has lots of leads. It absorbs a bit of sun.
The permafrost on land is generally at 1 degree below freezing, and so are the clathrates on the continental shelves. This temperature means that any more heating is going directly into melting. The continental shelves are slowly starting to melt now, although the Arctic Ocean's latency may contribute a 30 year lag to this melting. Not so on land, and the disappearance of the ice contributes directly to adjacent land heating.
I've seen two field reports that the permafrost on land is melting. One report says that for the first time the Yukon permafrost is squishy and "it farts". My translation: it smells like methane. The other is from Alaska, where people have dug frozen cellars, say, 50 years ago by their grandfathers for keeping game frozen and safe from bears, and one man opened the door to his cellar and said "Ooh, it smells!" In the same Fairbanks News-Miner story, other people report that their cellars were flooded for the first time in their history. These reports are in addition to bubbling lakes all over the Arctic where the methane plumes can be seen and tree-sized methane fireballs can be set off with a lighter. Last year, a clear methane rise was first measured in the atmosphere two miles above a Soviet Arctic river delta.
The world-changing question is, how fast is the permafrost currently melting? I don't know, but the melting seems pretty widespread and impressive right now.
"Chief adviser says we need strategy to adapt to potential catastrophic increase"
LOL. I'd like to see that strategy. It probably consists, in large part, of nuclear strikes to keep the unwanted masses from migrating in search of precious food and water. Those who are well armed will survive this coming catastrophe. Those who aren't, well...
Roll a locomotive downhill and who's going to stop it? It'll stop when it's done rolling.
Climate's on the roll now.
Kem got it right all right - keep putting it out there and people will read it. I've got the website he keeps posting here on my favorites so I can refer to it, and also refer others to it.
Unfortunately, so many people don't want to face the grim possibilities, and prefer to go on as though everything is as it's always been.
Go see Werner Herzog's documentary "Encounters at the End of the World". Watch carefully the sequence where the lone penguin wanders off into the empty vastness of the Antarctic, heading toward certain death. That's us.
Here in the midwest, we're seeing earlier blooms, migrations have changed and the praying mantis eggs have actually made it through a few of the past winters. This past winter we had over 100 inches of snow and have had torrential rains, followed by weeks of dry weather. I don't anticipate ever seeing again, the seasons of my youth.
hey KEM, the brits have been taking notice of your blogs..........even THEY are talking about methane hydrate release from the arctic.