The Lies of Hiroshima Live On, Props in the War Crimes of the 20th Century
The 1945 attack was murder on an epic scale. In its victims' names, we must not allow a nuclear repeat in the Middle East
When I first went to Hiroshima in 1967, the shadow on the steps was still there. It was an almost perfect impression of a human being at ease: legs splayed, back bent, one hand by her side as she sat waiting for a bank to open. At a quarter past eight on the morning of August 6, 1945, she and her silhouette were burned into the granite. I stared at the shadow for an hour or more, then walked down to the river and met a man called Yukio, whose chest was still etched with the pattern of the shirt he was wearing when the atomic bomb was dropped.
He and his family still lived in a shack thrown up in the dust of an atomic desert. He described a huge flash over the city, "a bluish light, something like an electrical short", after which wind blew like a tornado and black rain fell. "I was thrown on the ground and noticed only the stalks of my flowers were left. Everything was still and quiet, and when I got up, there were people naked, not saying anything. Some of them had no skin or hair. I was certain I was dead." Nine years later, when I returned to look for him, he was dead from leukaemia.
In the immediate aftermath of the bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated.
The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a criminal act on an epic scale. It was premeditated mass murder that unleashed a weapon of intrinsic criminality. For this reason its apologists have sought refuge in the mythology of the ultimate "good war", whose "ethical bath", as Richard Drayton called it, has allowed the west not only to expiate its bloody imperial past but to promote 60 years of rapacious war, always beneath the shadow of The Bomb.
The most enduring lie is that the atomic bomb was dropped to end the war in the Pacific and save lives. "Even without the atomic bombing attacks," concluded the United States Strategic Bombing Survey of 1946, "air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion. Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that ... Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
The National Archives in Washington contain US government documents that chart Japanese peace overtures as early as 1943. None was pursued. A cable sent on May 5, 1945 by the German ambassador in Tokyo and intercepted by the US dispels any doubt that the Japanese were desperate to sue for peace, including "capitulation even if the terms were hard". Instead, the US secretary of war, Henry Stimson, told President Truman he was "fearful" that the US air force would have Japan so "bombed out" that the new weapon would not be able "to show its strength". He later admitted that "no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb". His foreign policy colleagues were eager "to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip". General Leslie Groves, director of the Manhattan Project that made the bomb, testified: "There was never any illusion on my part that Russia was our enemy, and that the project was conducted on that basis." The day after Hiroshima was obliterated, President Truman voiced his satisfaction with the "overwhelming success" of "the experiment".
Since 1945, the United States is believed to have been on the brink of using nuclear weapons at least three times. In waging their bogus "war on terror", the present governments in Washington and London have declared they are prepared to make "pre-emptive" nuclear strikes against non-nuclear states. With each stroke toward the midnight of a nuclear Armageddon, the lies of justification grow more outrageous. Iran is the current "threat". But Iran has no nuclear weapons and the disinformation that it is planning a nuclear arsenal comes largely from a discredited CIA-sponsored Iranian opposition group, the MEK - just as the lies about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction originated with the Iraqi National Congress, set up by Washington.
The role of western journalism in erecting this straw man is critical. That America's Defence Intelligence Estimate says "with high confidence" that Iran gave up its nuclear weapons programme in 2003 has been consigned to the memory hole. That Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never threatened to "wipe Israel off the map" is of no interest. But such has been the mantra of this media "fact" that in his recent, obsequious performance before the Israeli parliament, Gordon Brown alluded to it as he threatened Iran, yet again.
This progression of lies has brought us to one of the most dangerous nuclear crises since 1945, because the real threat remains almost unmentionable in western establishment circles and therefore in the media. There is only one rampant nuclear power in the Middle East and that is Israel. The heroic Mordechai Vanunu tried to warn the world in 1986 when he smuggled out evidence that Israel was building as many as 200 nuclear warheads. In defiance of UN resolutions, Israel is today clearly itching to attack Iran, fearful that a new American administration might, just might, conduct genuine negotiations with a nation the west has defiled since Britain and America overthrew Iranian democracy in 1953.
In the New York Times on July 18, the Israeli historian Benny Morris, once considered a liberal and now a consultant to his country's political and military establishment, threatened "an Iran turned into a nuclear wasteland". This would be mass murder. For a Jew, the irony cries out.
The question begs: are the rest of us to be mere bystanders, claiming, as good Germans did, that "we did not know"? Do we hide ever more behind what Richard Falk has called "a self-righteous, one-way, legal/moral screen [with] positive images of western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted violence"? Catching war criminals is fashionable again. Radovan Karadzic stands in the dock, but Sharon and Olmert, Bush and Blair do not. Why not? The memory of Hiroshima requires an answer.
johnpilger.com
© Guardian News and Media Limited 2008
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175 Comments so far
Show AllCome on guys.....surely there's some little ole country somewhere that likes us?
Lichetenstein? Transylvania?
I don't believe we are liked by anyone any more ~SEE~ this is 2008, Hiroshima was 1945.
One final time, would you have gambled knowing what Truman knew if you were the President in August of 1945?
KEM PATRICK -- Sorry to get back so late.
No straw men in my comments. This article above is about "The Lies of Hiroshima". My comments also concern the general lies of many historical writings. For some, they will call corrections of the facts, revisionism. These people are just in denial of what the facts and the truth are. One of the biggest ways to corrupt the historical record is by using "omission". I think you appreciate this also, seeing that you like to point out facts that are not being used. I appreciate your effort. The facts that are omitted in our debate on use of Nuclear Weapons (and the use of Power during wartime) are critical. I try to add my points to increase understanding and spread the blame around. We all know how horrendous the Japanese and Germans were. Unfortunately, many people deny how bad everyone else was too. That is fallacy by "omission'.
As for the Philippines, it is true that most of the public has a favorable opinion of the US. Strangely enough, it was one of the few countries to keep an overall positive view of Geo. W Bush. My personal opinion of why that is is guided somewhat closely to a popular saying they have: Our country was 350 (or 400) years in a convent and 50 years in Hollywood. Who would you rather be like? I think this also shows how gullible foreigners are in their perception of the US. It is all just like Hollywood!
Anyways, they did kick our military out finally and there are many, many people there who do not like our influence. Only to, in a somewhat Bushian manner, reappear as "advisors" at the request of the current corrupt president (GMA).
No, ~Seedeevee~ I lived in the Phillipines in 1961 and then again for 180 days in the 70s. I had many friends there who lived through the Japanese invasiion and occupation and I believe their vivid and graphic stories. The People there did not dislike the Americans at all, never ever saw one who did. But they HATED the Japanese with all of their hearts and souls. ___ They Still do.
What does war do to people? I think that war can cause people to hate life itself and be determined to destroy it. Ask three Europeans (one, English; one, French; one, Italian), who lived through and survived the Second World War, came to the United States afterwards and, eventually, settled in for lengthy stays at the San Francisco Art Commission. (The Commission's Civic Design Committee has much more to do with architecture than it does with art.)
Where there are three there must be many.
Upon his arrival in San Francisco, "after getting off the boat," who is the first person this Italian gentleman meets? The Director of the San Francisco Art Commission. Upon said Director's retirement, who replaces him? The English woman, who then becomes my supervisor.
The one journalist this person read, who wrote that the Art Commissioners knew what they were doing when they selected Mr. Robert Arneson to sculpt the bust of the assassinated Mayor George Moscone, is now dead. Was he murdered?
Personally, I've always been suspicious of that open window through which Dan White penetrated City Hall to carry out his deadly deeds. Who were Dan White's friends? Why is this man dead?
A nocturnal arson fire, set directly in front of a recently installed firedoor as if by design at 165 Grove Street, obliges the Art Commission to relocate three times, bringing it in due course to the 8th floor at 3rd & Mission Streets, looking down on the Moscone Convention Center.
What brought about the reappearance of the infamous Moscone Bust in the Public Eye on November 3, 1992, Presidential Election Day? The death of Robert Arneson.
The controversial bust by sculptor Arneson of the murdered Mayor Moscone (I knew Mr. Moscone) was successfully used to deflect attention from the architecture of the Moscone Convention Center (a Trojan Horse within the citadel), which was designed for and is intended to be used as a gas chamber.
This scheme for the most prodigious kill-off of humanity in history has been in the planning since the post-World War Two period. Will it be preceded by a horrendous terrorist attack somewhere in the United States, nuclear in nature? (a large dam, perhaps) Will it be accompanied by the disablement of the nation's electric power grid?
Imagine the ways, after decades of preparation, in which the San Francisco Peninsula can be completely sealed off from the outside world and its citizenry compromised. Chemical fumes?
Who thought up the Moscone Convention Center? Who designed it? Who built it? Who named it? I also think that a light needs to be shined on St. Louis, Missouri and, as well, on the Princeton Forrestal Center.
My story, by the way, (in variously detailed formats) has been very, very widely distributed throughout the world via the Internet since the year 2000, including Heads of State of almost every nation on earth. In the past several weeks, it was sent to 65 U.S. Senators and 6 U.S. Representatives. President Bush and Vice President Cheney have been notified, plus every member of the Cabinet.
In recent time, my message was sent to media outlets in some seventy countries around the planet. In previous time, it was emailed to media folks in every state in the United States and to innumerable organizations, here and abroad. In past time, it was brought to the attention of several intelligence agencies, among them INTERPOL.
Where is the power of the press, to save this world? (Aspects of this "breaking news" were published in June 2008 in News From Bangladesh and in the Skagit Valley Herald.)
Ignore me at your peril. Why? Because the ultimate goal of this dastardliness is world destruction in thermo nuclear holocaust.
To close, only those who know that what I am saying is true will "know for certain" that it is not. No one else can.
"Maybe in Dallas or Houston, everyplace else you'd probably have a chance." ___ Hee hee! If it happened in Newark, DC or Trenton, the person who picked the wallet up would probably run you down, mug you, take your watch and sneakers. ___ LOL.
Hi ~SEEDEEVEE~ I do not disagree with all you have posted here. Indeed, our government has over the past and sometimes our troops do things that are immoral and criminal. Lt. Calley comes to mind, Our treatment of the American Indians and slavery of the Africans often comes to mind.
One of my heros is Chief Joseph the Nez Pierce tribe. I wish I had been his friend. Robert MacNammara's decisions come to mind, the false flag operation in the Gulf of Tonkin comes to mind. What Bush has done and is doing is on my mind every single day.
However, what this issue is partially about is why did Truman ever authorize the horribe use of atomic bombs? ___ WHY? Those other things I just mentioned are Strawman issues in respect to this article and issue.
You said to me, that perhaps I should offer further reasons of why I posted my opinions on the subject.
Well ~SEE~, I did offer three very explainable links here. Did you bother to open and read them? If so, you never offered an opinion about them. I do believe they are suffecient reasons as to why I offered my opinions on the subject.
I also asked what would we do, if we were in Truman's shoes, knowing what he was fully aware of in Dec of 1941. What decisions would you have made? Continue the killing, the bombing? Wait and HOPE to heaven that Japan did not have the atomic weapons? Invade and HOPE the Japanese did not use atomic weapons or dirty atomic radiation weapons on our invasion troops?
I do believe, I replied to all of your questions and charges, could you reply to what I asked, wrote or posted? I do believe the war with Spain, the Perry mission are Strawman issues. ___ Don't you? Let us be fair and debate fairly, it is an interesting subject.
I'd bet not 1% of the readers who came here to this thread, were aware that Janpan also had a nuclear weapons program, which was headed by a close associate of Albert
Einstein and an associate who ws a student of Einstein's and a nobel prize winning physicist. ___ Truman knew that. Could he gamble, would you have?
KEM - "We invaded the Phillipines during the war with Spain as I recall and that had little if anything to do with Japan bombing Pearl Harbor and Wake Island" This is the problem, KEM PATRICK. You do not see the connection.
Have you read about what Americans did to the Pilipinos? The last conviction of a "waterboarder" was for an American there. The savage and brutal occupation and conquest of that country is remembered by few in the US. Were you actually in the Philippines during the Japanese Occupation or did I misread your implication?
I have read much about the brutality of war by many peoples and cultures. Relativism does not matter much in crimes of such magnitude.
from what I've read here...(and believe me I've learned a LOT) I walk away thinking it was the right decision...it ended the war with less bloodshed than might have been...on BOTH sides...
the fact we haven't used them since is a testamnent to our restraint (Macarthur wanted them for Korea)...
but I also walk away feeling that in similar circumstances we could use them again...but it would have to be a similar scenario
seedeevee August 8th, 2008 6:49 pm
Works for me.
KEM PATRICK August 8th, 2008 7:05 pm
Isn't that a hoot! Its a lovely festival I understand.
SnowWolf August 8th, 2008 7:09 pm
"I have visited there on and off…Sasebo mostly…they are very nice people…a friend of mine stumbling out of a bar accidently dropped his wallet…a Japanese man chased him down to return it…that wouldn't have happened in the P.I."
It sure wouldn't have happened in the P.I. Wouldn't happen in Dallas anymore probably, but outside of Dallas and Houston, your chances would be pretty good.
The Japanese are extremely nice people and I wish we would adopt some of their customs.
That was kind.
Well, unfortunantly the Japanese would NOT back down A SMIDGEN from THEIR ludicrous surrender terms. Our original surrender terms were the exact same surrender terms they finally agreed to and signed. They were very very fair terms by any fair mnded person's opinion and once again the killing stopped. Especially I am pleased, was the no more killing of innocent children.
you ever read what the Japanese soldiers did to the Phillipinos?
Bump that...ever see what they did to the Chinese?
I have visited there on and off...Sasebo mostly...they are very nice people...a friend of mine stumbling out of a bar accidently dropped his wallet...a Japanese man chased him down to return it...that wouldn't have happened in the P.I.
(probably wouldn't have happened here...oh...and you haven't seen Bonanza till you've seen it dubbed Japanese!...TOO FUNNY)
Commadore's threats against Japan were "primarily" to have American civilian sailors who had ship-wrecked and were imprisoned in Japan released.
Perhaps you are unaware, that the Japanese have an annual "Black Ship" festival in honor of what Perry accomplished to THEIR benefit. I lived in Japan for two years also, wonderful people they are. Except they eat whale meat.
Sorry ~SEE~ but propaganda is a two sided coin. Perhaps what you believe is propaganda? We invaded the Phillipines during the war with Spain as I recall and that had little if anything to do with Japan bombing Pearl Harbor and Wake Island and starting a war with us. We didn't take the Phillipines from Japan. BTW, you ever read what the Japanese soldiers did to the Phillipinos? That isn't propaganda, they did it. I lived there for a year.
and I didn't mean you personally...I meant anybody or terrorist group that feels like havin' a go..
(I read my post and it even seemed threatening to me..My apologies if I offended)
KEM - "KEM - You realy need to get over your WWII-era propaganda mindset." is what I wrote. If you need me to further explain that comment, I can.
Please pay attention to the "WWII-ERA PROPAGANDA MINDSET" part of my comment. You seem to have got stuck on WWII. Please pay attention to entire statements.
I say that we started our part of the war in the Pacific by invading the Philippines. I believe we had (in the past) a conversation about our invasion of Japan in the 19th century that started the modernization of the Japanese military-industrial complex. Forgive me if it wasn't with you that I conversed with.
"The Japanese refused the unconditional surrender terms and offered "THEIR" surrender terms instead" - This is called "diplomacy" when two governments discuss things. These things can be reasonable or unreasonable. Apparently, both sides started out with unreasonable demands. Most governments do not end conversations with unreasonable demands. We see how well it has worked for little Geo Bush.
There is no doubt that our war crimes of firebombing occurred.
Thomas More - I agree that everyone should be more polite.
You don't care that Japan had a nuclear weapons program ~SEEDEEVEE~? You don't care that they used germ warfare against the Koreans and then the Chinese? And we were supposed to allow them to surrender by their terms, with no occupatio, no inpsections of their facilities, etc, etc ? Get real SEEDEVEE.
elmysterio
Thomas More is probably the most reasoned man I have ever known and I have a lot of respect for his opinion...but he is way more virtuous than I am
I am not so much Pro-War as I am Pro-Justice...I believe ALL Peoples have a right to their beliefs...live and let live...I'll respect yours and I expect you to respect mine..or barring that at least don't try to kill me because mine are different than yours...I won't force my spritual views on you and you can do likewise...and your right to swing your fist ends one inch in front of my nose...I find that to be a pretty reasonable position...
I think the difference between Thoman More and I is if you can't keep to these guidelines I don't just go tit for tat...I will escalate...I will give you a hundred times what you gave me and I won't stop ...I will pound you until you rue the day the thought "Kill the Infidel" ever popped into your brain housing group assembly...you're a dead man
if you walk away from the keyboard thinking "don't F*ck with him, he CRAZY"...well that works too...because the key phrase is "don't F*CK with him"...aside from that...I'll be the best friend you ever had ...I think I'm a pretty decent and helpful Guy ....I just don't think terrorism is a justifiable means to any end...and I will not tolerate it on any level...
~SEEDEEVEE~ why do you accuse me of not getting over WW-2, that's what this thread is partially about in case you missed it. Do you have a problem of ANYONE discussing history? Or just those you may disagree with?
WW-2 is now HISTORY, very "important" history BTW. We either learn from the errors made during that era, or we continue to make the same mistakes that were made during those years. And prior to that era, perhaps the worst mathamatical error ever made, was E=Mc2, which is alos now histoory. Bad history.
I have NEVER EVER promoted war, and or the use of the atomic bomb. I have posted three links here that help to explain why Truman decided that the use of the atomic bomb was appropriate. You nor anyone else has addressed those reasons here. You ignore the fact, that the B-29 raids probably killed far more than a million Japanese and the war ended after the atom bombs were used. The killing stopped.
For example: On just one of many night time B-29 bomb raids of Tokyo, 16 square miles of the city was TOTALLY destroyed and few of the estimated 1.5 million who lived within that fire storm zone escaped alive. There were aprox 120,000 living in a square mile of the city. The offical Japanese death toll published was far less than that figure. That's becuse they didn't wish to admit the true figure.
General Curtis E. LeMay planned to bomb every city in Japan until there was NOTHING or anybody left alive. And he would have attempted that. He, MacArthur and Eisenhour were all seriously pissed at Truman for using the Bomb. For one thing, they were not in that atomic bomb "loop". That type of enemy deaths was not "noble" for millitary academy graduates.
Unconditional surrender?"" Absolutely!! Japan started the war, first with China, and then with us and SE Asia. The Japanese needed oil, rubber, metal ores, raw materials, etc. Why in hell didn't they purchase or free trade for the the things they NEEDED, like they have ever since they surrendered and still do now?
The Japanese refused the unconditional surrender terms and offered "THEIR" surrender terms instead. Have you ever read "their" surrender terms? If Truman had accepted them, our Congress would have impeached him and had him shot for being a traitor in time of war. And I am serious about that comment. Find the Japanese terms and read them, you seem to be a "smart" person. ___ Get smarter.
I've tried to be polite. Why don't you let me?
"If you really need list of numbers, names and dates for validation - you can go read some books."
"There is no excuse for your ignorance, since you claim to be well read."
Did you miss these? Perhaps we both just misunderstood to that point. But I'd suggest in the future you might consider being more polite.
Thomas More - You escalated this conversation by using "Cute sonny". Don't cry now about "personal imsults or your rude and arrogant assertions".
I really find it far-fetched that you have had a personal speaking relationship with the Axis and Allied governing elite.
Speaking with a few grunts about the atrocities they have witnessed or participated in may make a good journal entry, but does not contain any facts pertaining to our abhorrent military mass murderers and the political elite (and a large complacent population) that supports it and its actions throughout history.
You can keep your hero worship/no-brain-involved flag waving. As for me, I'll keep my eyes and ears open for any propaganda that comes my way. I'll try to respond to it, also.
elmysterio August 8th, 2008 5:41 pm
Less than fond is not hate. Nor are critical observations about my country hate. I've got a few myself.
With the Autocratic form of capitalism on the rise, you may look back fondly on our crummty old form of capitalism.
We have been down the road of "imperialism" before you and I (and a few others). You believe it, I don't. No problem for me.
So till the day you post and say I hate America and Americans, fire away, you're no enemy of mine.
Interesting stuff by the way.
Thomas said: "hates my country... ...are my enemies for sure"
Well Thomas, hate to tell ya this, but I'm less than fond of your country, due to it's evil form of capitalism and imperialism it imposes on the world.
seedeevee August 8th, 2008 5:18 pm
In other words you have no experience of war, no persional knowledge of any of these things, haven't even taken the time to talk to men involved.So I guess since you have done nothing but observe, I would of course be wrong.
I really don't care for your personal imsults or your rude and arrogant assertions. So we'll agree to disagree and be done with it.
elmysterio August 8th, 2008 4:49 pm
"Therefore, anyone who promotes war as a solution to a problem makes an enemy of me."
I sure as hell don't advocate war as a solution to anything. In fact I defy you to find anyone here thats more anti-war than me.
Can't speak for SnowWolf, but I'd be surprised if he didn't feel the same way.
Frankly with all the revisionist history, bunch's of lies, utter falsehoods and suggesting that my father and your grandfather were without honor, that they were murderers.....I'm not sure everyone does understand the costs of it.
I really hate to hear that about your Grandfather. A terrible thing.
I'm with you, anyone that advocates war, hates my country, hates our serving men and women or disrespects the people that bought what they have for them are my enemies for sure.
There was some very interesting discussions on this, good folks, we didn't all agree, but it wasn't a problem. The Idealogues, the revisionists are beginning to get my goat though, when someone posts and its obvious they have no knowledge of real history, no idea what war really is or was, its hard to be polite.
God bless the memory of your Grandfather.
Thomas More - There is nothing obvious about you except for the dated and stale ideological underpinnnings of your musings. You can read thousands of books and give hundreds of lectures and still have zero knowledge.
MY lifetime has been spent observing. Some in an organized educational sytem, some not. I do have knowledge of this topic (Asia in WW2). Many of our leaders of the WW2 era were simple-minded barbarians. The story is the same today. There is no excuse for your ignorance, since you claim to be well read.
Yes, I guess the Iraqis and Afghanis have "no other choice" than to capitulate to our unconditional demands, also.
After they surrendered, we wrote a consdtitution for them that denied any other stance but Pacifism.
"It was because of our barbaric government that the war was not settled earlier."
Darn, and I thought it was because the Nazi's and Japanese wouldn't surrender.
The unconditional surrender terms were issued long beforec this, with sound military and political reasons for it.
you can go read some books.
Cute sonny, the question is what is your knowledge of the issues? Strictly books? Some Professor?
I've obviously read quite a few more books than you have.
Thomas and SnowWolf: You know, that horrible war touched the lives of pretty much everyone. I bet we all have family that sacrificed during that war. In my case is was my maternal grandfather of the 10th Canadian Armoured Regiment who, having survived the D-Day landing on Juno beach, was killed June 10, 1944 in France.
Because of that, my mother grew up without a father... and as a result passed along the pain of war to her children. We are all anti-war, understanding the costs of it. Therefore, anyone who promotes war as a solution to a problem makes an enemy of me.
Thomas More - "they had no other choice"
Yes, I guess the Iraqis and Afghanis have "no other choice" than to capitulate to our unconditional demands, also.
It was because of our barbaric government that the war was not settled earlier.
"Unconditional" is a term most governments will not deal with. It negates their reason for being. How is it working for our relations with Iran?
Most people are "peace loving". It is their governments and leaders which are not.
If you really need list of numbers, names and dates for validation - you can go read some books.
seedeevee August 8th, 2008 2:41 pm
So if it weren't for the barbaric US the peace loving Japanese would have surrendered at our earliest convience?
"The historical fact is that Japan almost immediately embraced pacifism."
Considering we dictated that stance to them and they had no other choice I guess they did, immediately "embrace" it.
Little light on support for your argument here I think.
KEM PATRICK -"The atomic bombs were not just used to save American lives, as a few here suggest, it also saved "many millions" of Japanese lives and a total destruction of all of their cities. We sure do have some Monday morning quarterbacks here."
KEM - You realy need to get over your WWII-era propaganda mindset. Or maybe you need to explain better your reasoning. We all understand how things were done in WW2 - very violent and brutal, with very limited honor amongst all of the parties. We could have reagained our honor at many points in the war, but we did not.
Japanese Civilians were willing to kill themselves because of the known history and fear of US babrbarism in Asia (phillipines, etc) and their own societal acceptance (willingly and unwillingly) of militarism and self-sacrifice. The historical fact is that Japan almost immediately embraced pacifism. That should show you that they were willing to call it quits at an even earlier date. Except for our BS on demanding "Unconditional Surrender", they would have found a way to surrender earlier.
Please wake up from your WW2 nightmare!
SnowWolf August 8th, 2008 2:01 pm
Thanks for that.
Thomas More
God Bless your Dad too...and all the others...I thank them for my freedom
* "Japan is doomed and the Japanese know it. Peace feelers are being put out."
---HARRY HOPKINS to President Truman, 28 May 1945
* "Intercepted messages from Togo to Sato, Japanese ambassador to Moscow, instructing the latter to see Molotov before his departure for the Big Three meeting, to lay before him the emperor's strong desire to secure a termination of the war."
---JAMES FORRESTAL, diary entry, 13 July 1945
* "Certainly prior to December 31, Japan would have surrendered, even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
---U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey No. 4
* "There are both older and more recent sources for the same basic information, but the American people overwhelmingly continue to believe the lie promoted at the time and now, that the bombs were dropped to save huge losses of American lives in a costly, inch-by-inch invasion of Japanese-held islands and Japan itself."
---DAVID DELLINGER, "Beyond Survival," page 346
"The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all."
---Major General Curtis LeMay, 20 September 1945
"The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell."
---Henry "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General, U.S. Army Air Force
"There were political implications in the decision" [to use the bombs].
---Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker
"I knew nobody in [the] higher echelons of the Army Air Force who had any question about having to invade Japan."
---ibid
"We had the Japs licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit."
---General George Kenney, Army Air Force in the Southwest Pacific
"LeMay felt, as did the Navy, that an invasion of Japan wasn't necessary."
---Brigadier General Roscoe C. Wilson
"We were certain that the Mikado could stop the war with a royal word."
---Admiral Leahy
"We used them [the Japanese people] as an experiment for two atomic bombs."
---Brigadier General Carter W. Clarke
"Intercepted Japanese diplomatic messages revealed their anxiety to make peace."
---Colonel Alfred McCormack, Army Intelligence
"If they got the word from the Japanese emperor they would" [surrender].
---General MacArthur's staff
"The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing. I hated to see our country be the first to use such a weapon."
---General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"The atomic bomb neither induced the emperor's decision to surrender nor had any effect on the ultimate outcome of the war."
---Brigadier General Bonners Fellers
KEM PATRICK August 8th, 2008 12:30 pm
Thanks for the correction.
gotov August 8th, 2008 12:14 pm
Let me add thanks also. Dad said Iwo Jima was the worst he'd seen. Worse than Guadalcanal, worse than Bougainville and a few others.
He got to go back on a cruise to those lovely spots last year, of course they weren't allowed on Iwo Jima. We lost him this year.
I'm glad you got back. God bless you.
you fought at Iwo?...I wish I could shake your hand, Sir
(The above post is why every once in a while you read a story of two punks who think the "old geezer" they are about to roll looks like an easy pay off ...until they find to their unpleasant surprise that he either fought in the Pacific, or Parachuted into Normandy...
The ER staff usually briefs them...when they wake up!
God Bless you Sir
Actually at Okinawa we lost 30 ships to Kamikazi attacks with manymor seriously damaged, 4,900 sailors killed and and 4,884 wounded. The Japanese pilots had to fly over 400 miles to reach our fleet.
Had we begun an invasion of their homeland, they would not have had to fly as far, could carry larger explosive loads instead of fuel and have far less exposure time to our fighter aircrft.
The Jpapanese had over 3,000 aircraft hidden in deep caves, fully fueled and prepared to be used in suicide attacks and near a 1,000 were the small "BACA", rocket propelled aircraft, which were nearly impossible for our troops to knock down. An invasion fleet would have been very badly torn up.
In addition, it was quite possible dirty nuclear weapons would have been used by the Japanese, as Germany had shipped several tons of radio-active material to them during the past year. ___ Reference the links I posted.
Samson
you speak revisionist bullshit. I was at Iwo and saw my friend hacked to death by Japanese. they were maniacal in their passion to defend their homeland. And to think they died so 60 years later revisionist, lying, gutter dwelling minions such as yourself could have the freedom to preach revisionsist drivel. I have one message for you - go F$ck yourself you slimeball sad excuse of a man. Even though I am 86 years I'd like to come kick a small iota of common sense into your addled brain.
whether one agrees with the decision (to drop the bombs) or not...just reading the posts here gives me insight into what was on their minds...and I certainly see WHY they chose to strike the decisive blow...the madness HAD to end
SnowWolf August 8th, 2008 10:17 am
Correct
"We lost about 300 at Okinawa to kamikaze's"
Should have read about 3000. Sorry.
By the way...I think this is the most thought provoking Historical discussion I've had the pleasure of reading in years...
I might be wrong but wasn't their a "desperation" hail mary type plan to beach the Yamato right in the middle of the Invasion force at Okinawa?...use it as a bunker for as long as it could keep shooting?
luckily we sunk it first...
Sorry for three posts, WORD PRESS blocked it with three links on one comment.
Here was the means of delivery. The famous Japanese pilot, Mr. Nubuo Fujita, tested the new and secret Japanese strategic weapons system on Sept 9, 1942 and the test flight was very sucessful. He dropped two bombs in the forest, nine miles west of Brookings, Oregon and safely returned to his ship and returned to Japan. That BTW was the only bomb run by Japan on the United States. It was not the only one planned.
When all was ready, it was planned the aircraft would return to their ships, refuel and re-arm for a second strike, only the targets would be ANY metro areas of the United States, not remote forest areas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/japanese_submarine_I-400
Those three very critial issues all tied together and Truman was aware of them and he had to consider them when making military decisions. All of those issue were kept ultra-secret until long after the war ended.
Here is another 'very important' issue Truman and a handful of his staff ___ and the nuclear phycist Oppenheimer were aware of and it corresponded with the previous link and boosted that issue to "extreme importance".
http://www.ww2pacific.com/u-234.html
~SAMPSON~ aAUG 6 __ 12:43PM
You and many others believe we should have just blockaded Japan until they surrendered. Sounds reasonable. Buttt, here is something of extreme importnace that Truman and a handful of his cabinet and General Marshall were aware of. The other high rankin Allied generals were not aware of it. Truman had to very seriously consider this when he nade any dicisions concerning militay operations.
BTW, tihs was classifed ultra secret and then later Top Secret until the mid 1980s.
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=2100
Chicarnery
Well stated .
Lots of ignorance on Communist Dreams.
The most important paragraph in the article:
"The question begs: are the rest of us to be mere bystanders, claiming, as good Germans did, that "we did not know"? Do we hide ever more behind what Richard Falk has called "a self-righteous, one-way, legal/moral screen [with] positive images of western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted violence"? Catching war criminals is fashionable again. Radovan Karadzic stands in the dock, but Sharon and Olmert, Bush and Blair do not. Why not? The memory of Hiroshima requires an answer."
Most Americans, including, it appears, a troubling number here on Common Dreams, are already "good Germans". They swallow government propaganda whole (i.e. we had to drop the bomb to save lives, they have WMDs, he wants to wipe Israel off the map, etc.), without respect to the cost in human lives, waving the flag the whole damn time. And it's going to keep happening as long as the "Good War" myth is allowed to stand. There is no more excuse for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima than there was for Auschwitz. Period. Lemay and Harris should have been in the dock keeping Goering company.
"Naturally the common people don't want war. But after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it's always a
simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reich Marshall, at the Nuremberg
Trials after World War II.
I forgot to say we'll just agree to disagree about this and agree totally that it should never, never happen again.
Pax
Jack
We lost about 300 at Okinawa to kamikaze's which as I understyand were not that easy to stop. I also know they had pulled back a lot of Zero's and Zeke's to the mainland, plus submarines were all called back.
They were also still fighting in other places. My figure could be too high, just a guess. I can't see how we'd do better than 30,000 though. Remember that my wife says I'm only right occasionally.
I doubt Truman and the others expected wings, I'm sure many of them were haunted by it. But decisions were what they were supposed to make.
I just threw that Palm Tree thing in there because that always rubbed my dad the wrong way. Irritated the heck out of him, that we were paying the Brits for Palm Trees we had destroyed in their territories. I think it was about $1500 per tree. It was just a way to cancel some of England's war debt, which they couldn't pay.
Always frosted him though!
Thomas,
You really think we'd have lost thirty-five to sixty thousand of our troops in a naval blockade around the Japanese islands? I mean, we already had air supremacy so there wouldn't have been any serious attacks on the fleet from the remnants of the Japanese Air Force, at least not for long, considering their dependency on imported fuel. We also had actual allies to contribute to the blockade and, once it was in place, I conjecture that others would have joined. How do you suppose we'd have lost that many (at the time) men?
I will partially concede your point on our humanity, at least toward our defeated enemies. We certainly didn't hesitate to wreak havoc on the civilian populations of our primary enemies, but once we had pounded and incinerated them mercilessly into surrender we were magnanimous as hell.
However.... howwwwwever ... flash cremating a couple of hundred thousand civilians in a couple of isolated nanoseconds over two days, under any circumstance other than an utterly last grasp at self preservation just don't get you no wings, if you know what I mean.
Sorry … I will maintain that the whole thing, although ostensibly justifiable, was in fact unnecessary, inhumane, obscene and criminal and, the truth be told, had little at all to do with being "victorious" over Japan. To the extent that our use of those most utterly obscene of weapons was anything other than absolutely required for our self-preservation our use of them cost us our humanity.
Of course, that's just me...
There were palm trees in England!!??
"How many contries would have given the UK thousands of dollars apiece for each palm tree we destroyed. remember that?"
That was said with a grin.
"It is hard for me to imagine, though, a blockade that cost nearly two hundred thousand civilian lives. The lives we lost would have been a price we paid to retain our humanity. We decided not to pay it."
Excellent post Jack.
Based on the loss rate then including naval forces it would have been no more than 35 to 60,000 if it had lasted no more than 6 months. Could have been less of course.
I don't believe we lost our humanity though. We are probably the only country that defeated enemies and didn't loot their countries. In fact I'd say modern Japan and Germany, indeed Europe is a testament to our humanity.
How many contries would have given the UK thousands of dollars apiece for each palm tree we destroyed. remember that?
(Writ in haste, as I haven't much time to spare right now) :::
@ AndyUK :: ~~ Please keep posting m'dear! :)
xx
Thomas,
I have no doubt whatsoever that the Japanese were preparing for an assault. I referred to "Fortress Japan" deliberately. It would have been a while before the absolute reality of the situation was fully realized across the Empire: There will be no assault. There will also be no oil, no medicine, no food or anything else the Empire needs to support its population within its fortress.
I don't know if anyone, or at least if very many people, around at the time would have thought much about the possibility of Japan surrendering. I'm pretty sure there was no active indication that it was a possibility in the media of the day or from the administration. Our government knew, though…and the Soviets knew.
Will Rogers told a theater critic who had taken him to task on a matter of etiquette, "We're all ignorant, Percy, just about different things." I have found that to be true. There is no shame in ignorance until it becomes willful and even prideful, then it morphs from simple ignorance into stupidity and ultimately, arrogance.
I never addressed the cost of a blockade. I am certain you are correct that "many other lives would have been lost in a blockade." It is hard for me to imagine, though, a blockade that cost nearly two hundred thousand civilian lives. The lives we lost would have been a price we paid to retain our humanity. We decided not to pay it.
I've seen video of 15 year old Japanese Schoolgirls being trained in hand-to-hand with bo-staffs...and they weren't kidding
The use of nuclear fission or fusion as a weapon is the absolute realization of obscenity.
The active entertaining of that use is definitive and sufficient cause for a diagnosis of insanity.
Andy ... No one ever used an H-bomb on anyone. (Wellll, there are a few thousand people on the tiny atolls in the central Pacific that would probably argue that vigorously, huh? But that's another rant, isn't it?) Anyway ... The bombs we used in Japan were nuclear, not thermonuclear. Please don't denigrate the exploration history. History is the reason you don't walk in front of a bus. As far as the rest of what you said ... AMEN!
"They can spin all they want but in supporting the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki they are making that very arguement."
I missed that as I was posting when you did.
I totally disagree. Japan was one thing. Doing it again, today is quite another.
We'll just have to disagree, agreeably.
BTW...you know something of tactics obviously, is it an interest?
The depth of US hypocrisy once took me totally by surprise.
It was 1967, I was four years old.
Haven't been sucked in by any US mind-fuck since then.
"
I doubt if taking the position that this country nuked Japan essentially as an experiment in atomic warfare could be considered "politically correct" for the most part you, uh … knowhatImean?"
Gotcha! And thats not the PC answer I was speaking of.
I can certainly see your reasoned argument, but I would suggest to you that only if they were not to surrender would an assault have been needed. And I spoke to no one from that time that thought they would.
I can assure you they were preparing on every island for our assault simply because 3rd. Marines saw their preparations when the occupied Japan. The orders they saw were similar to Okinawa and Iwo Jima.
I hope I didn't suggest that the US was a "victim"? Didn't mean to if I did. I simply won't accept the portrayal of the Japanese as "voctims" and peace loving folks. Their ferocity and cruelty is well documented.
And I would never suggest anyone here was ignorant. Different viewpoints are not ignorance. I enjoyed your viewpoint and argument.
(Last thought)I would also like to suggest again all the other options are presented as a 0 cost. There would have been a cost. Many other lives would have been lost in a blockade.
GwNorth August 7th, 2008 1:06 pm
"Why not. ?"
In my opimion it simply because they attacked us and that was the choice to end the war. Dropping an atom bomb on anyone else, especially the people you are talking about, would be a crime because it is not needed nor should another one ever fall. That would be a crime.
"you would prefer a dead japanese to a dead American"
Absolutely. That is the nature of war. Mainly because the threat is not the same.
"YOU claimed one reason was to prevent the loss of lives of American soldiers who would have to invade the island."
That was one reason. Pretty sure of that.
It seems to me that you want to take my opinion on the bombs we dropped on Japan, which needs no justification and somehow make that my position on nuculear weapons and their use anywhere else. Correct?
"I have never said that. Please provide an example. I have said Hizbollah has every right to defend itself. I have never said they have the right to wage war on Civilians."
My bad...with my apologies. And not only that, I should have remembered it.
"BTW the IDF has attacked civilians at a far greater rate then has Hizbollah."
I did finfd that out from a prior discussion about Gaza. Learned a lot about that.
"I would not Nuke the Village."
Me neither! In fact if we could have, we'd have run like the scared rabbits we were.
"Why is it required you assault the village"
Again, my bad, not enough information given to you to even begin to formulate an answer..
We didn't have them cut off at all. Not only that, we are in their territory with reserves available to them. Neither of us have defensive positions, ( felt like Custer time our terrain was so bad) they know we are there. The terrain is down at our position, they are looking right down our throats, blah, blah, blah....
Actually it was a stupid scenario. There is no way you can answer that question without a lot more information and a bit of knowledge of the Jungle as opposed to paddies and roads.
Que Ton, Lonh Hau were two, just little villages. Your tactics and information are generally correct, but that is really a ratio for fixed positions. (Annapolis has some great battle diaries, truth not sanatized reports)
"I am sure your experience in Vietnam gains you a lot more insight into such then my own reading of conventional military wisdom."
Not insight, just memories. And I hate the fact that I seem to be saying I'm some kind of expert on Viet Nam, war, etc...you know what I mean. I detest that kind of guy. I'm not, just one of many that wished we had never heard of the place.
I wish that the next time I get wound up, one of you would say....give it a rest!
AndyUK August 7th, 2008 1:36 pm
"This is so typical, arguing about something we cannot change. The war on Japan is long gone, and we are not time lords, who can travel back and do something other than drop the H bomb. We can however, look to the immediate future, and stop it happening again."
A voice of reason from the UK. The last sentence is what is truly important.
Pax
The reflection of what happebned in the past is critical to discussing the tole of Nuclear weapons in the future. It should be clear here, we still have people who suggest using Nuclear Weapons on Cities is justified. They can spin all they want but in supporting the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki they are making that very arguement.
Those that justify it seem to suggest that if one side starts it, they deserve it , or that if it can save ones own troops in lieu of an invasion, then it is ok.
My argument is that it is never ok. I am not arguing against teh dropping of the Nuclear bombs on Japan as being wrong because Americans did it. I am arguing it wrong because the ACTION itself wrong.
Had the Russians developed the weaposn first and dropped them on Berlin and Munich, I would argue today it was wrong and was a war crime, just as I have indicated the firebombing of Dresden a war crime.
In short, one can not justify the use of Nuclear weapons against cities. (I would extend that and claim one could not justify them at all).
Every single arguement used by those who supported the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, can be used by persons to Justify their use today. Thus it imperative we counter those justifications.
The ACTION of dropping a Nuclear weapon on a City wherein hundreds of thousands of civilians are killed can not be justified. Not then. Not today and not tomorrow.
It IS mass murder.
It does not matter who does the crime. There are no exceptions.
Does anyone remember the Japanese offensive?!?!? You reap what you sow. Japan sowed the seed of murder, and so they reaped it. Be forgiven, lest we reap of sins past...
Does anyone remember the Japanese offensive?!?!? You reap what you sow. Japan sowed the seed of murder, and so they reaped it. Be forgiven, lest we reap of sins past.
You cant justify it-but you cant justify any sort of bombing campaign.
Dresden's zoo was abandoned-the prisoners within died horribly according to eyewitness testimony.
The real sin is that there were supposedly intelligent people(the Manhatten project scientists) who spent years working on it knowing exactly what it was meant to do.
The excuse that the nazis would have done it first doesnt hold-since they required scientists as well.
The "good" of science in action.
This is so typical, arguing about something we cannot change. The war on Japan is long gone, and we are not time lords, who can travel back and do something other than drop the H bomb. We can however, look to the immediate future, and stop it happening again. It seems like there are three or four countries (US, UK, Israel, France?) who may be prepared to use a pre-emptive nuclear strike against another nation, even if that nation does not possess nuclear weapons. We know the effects of these weapons, but still the so called "civilised" Western World is prepared to kill hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of people - on a hunch!!
Our media and politicians (the same entity actually) are lying to us, about the dangers posed by Iran, they did the same regarding Iraq. Our Labour party (supposedly formed nearly a century ago, to fight for the common man, the worker) is the most right wing government the UK has ever had. It has allied itself to the Bush administration, again the most right wing administration which the US has had. Together, they dream of exporting extremist Capitalism to the World, disguised as freedom and democracy. Any country who stands against this will be labelled dangerous, Iran is definitely not playing ball at the moment. Iran has not broken any laws, but the UN, under the control of the US still puts sanctions on Iran. Common sense and logic have taken a back seat at the theatre of politics. How else can you explain the different ways in which Iran and Israel have been treated? Israel attacks nearly all of it's neighbours, keeps the Palestinians in a concentration camp, has not signed up to the NPT, but has an arsenal of 100 to 200 nukes. Iran meanwhile, probably does fund Hizbollah, and probably does help the Shia in Iraq - why shouldn't they? As john Pilger points out, 1953 was the crucial year in Iranian history. This year was to change the course of US Iranian relations forever, and ordinary Iranian people had nothing to do with it.
Have any considered the fact, that Germany was defeated months before hitler committed suicide. Germany had no air power, no navy, no more tank units and the fighting finally ended in Berlin, where the Russians fought to Hitlers bunker and nobody surrendered until then. And thousands died for no reason at all those last few weeks.
Why do any believe that same type of situation would not have transpired if we had decided to have a land invasion on Japan and also continue the B-29 bombing raids? The atomic bombs were not just used to save American lives, as a few here suggest, it also saved "many millions" of Japanese lives and a total destruction of all of their cities. We sure do have some Monday morning quarterbacks here.
>>Equating that to the bombs on Japan is simply absurd. They have no relationship to the other.
Why not. ?
You claimed that in order to save AMERICAN soldiers lives (You said it yourself you would prefer a dead japanese to a dead American) the dropping of Nukes on Hiroshima and nagasaki was justified.
Why are the situations not comparable?
Again. Why did the nations of the world BAN Posion Gas after WW1 when it was being used to ensure Germany and or the western alies minimized their own casualties.?
You will not draw the link because you are being deliberately obtuse on the matter. I am speaking of the JUSTIFICATION for dropping Nuclear weapons on cities.
YOU claimed one reason was to prevent the loss of lives of American soldiers who woudl have to invade the island.
Apply that logic anywhere else and it fails.
My point is killing hundreds of thousands of Civilians to bring an end to a war because it will minimize ones own Military casualties is not justified and is a war crime.
>>By the way, I have continually seen you and mmany others advance the argument that terroism and murder were legitimate methods of defense for Hezbolla and other organizations. What do you call that? World citizen exceptionalism
I have never said that. Please provide an example. I have said Hizbollah has every right to defend itself. I have never said they have the right to wage war on Civilians.
I have said Israeli tactics wherein they wage war on Civilians are every bit the "terrorist " act as are those of a Hizbollah when they attack civilians.
BTW the IDF has attacked civilians at a far greater rate then has Hizbollah.
You are free to search for any time I stated as you claim.
>>Lets use a real example. Your company surrounds a village that contains about 300 NVA regulars. You know from prior experience that your best guess is in attacking you will lose about 5 to 10% of your troops and they will lose 30-40% plus some civilian casaulties (including possibly children). You also know if you await their attack you will lose approximately 18-25% of your troops and they will losde 5-10%. If you retreat your casaulty rate is doubled because of the terrain.
I would not Nuke the Village.
Now what WOULD i do in that case? The NVA are not going anywehre are they? Why is it required you assault the village. You have them surrounded. They have to come to you to get out. You have the advantage of the defense. They are cut off from supplies.
rather then destroy the village, dig in and let them come at you.
Your numbers seem way off....Units on the defensive inflict far more casualties on the attacker then vice versa.
NVA regulars that assaulted US positions in Vietnam suffered huge losses as compared to US losses on the defensive.
I would like for you to give examples of US forces on the defensive losing more troops then the NVA forces attacking them especially at a rate of 3 to 1.
I am sure your experience in Vietnam gains you a lot more insight into such then my own reading of conventional military wisdom.
If you can direct me to such examples I would be most interested in reading them.
Thomas,
I'd bet there was NO ONE "in those assault crafts" at the time of the bombings. If there had been, my father would have been one of them.
Now, were we belligerent enough to actually carry out a completely unnecessary amphibious assault on what undoubtedly was Fortress Japan? Maybe, but if we were, shame on US! Our choice, our consequence.
This keeps being portrayed as if we only had TWO choices: Toast'em from the sky or assault their fortress.
Nooooo no no no … we had OPTIONS. Now, whether we were willing to entertain any of them at the time is up to conjecture, but we had'em.
I think we were too impatient, tired, and pissed to consider a blockade for the length of time it would have taken for the Japanese people to go, "OOOOaa … sca-rew thisa!" and just stop and toss the Emperor out on His Divine Butt. AND …. We would have passed up all the additional benefits accrued by just nukin' em.
Yeah, basically, I think that the bombing was a crime of one sort and an invasion would have been a crime of a different sort in the light of options that didn't involve massive assault OR nuclear incineration. And, in passing, I do not think the Japanese would have resorted to cannibalism if we blockaded the island, and if they did, that would have been THEIR choice and consequence. I don't, by the way, consider the Japanese as what you might call "victims." They knowingly and deliberately loosed a howling gale and actively perpetuated it in ways that I can only call savage.
In the end, however, it is not accurate to consider US to be victims, since by that time we had the upper hand and several clear options and we deliberately chose the ones we did. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Japanese had begun to marshal their resources for an invasion. We had certainly shown a propensity for such invasions, but the fact that they were preparing for it doesn't mean we had to do it. It would have been perfect to allow them to prepare, and just seal them in their bunker.
Annnnd …. I don't take offense when someone simply disagrees with me. I am not ashamed of my ignorance and often learn a great deal in such disagreements. I don't have much use for political correctness and I doubt if taking the position that this country nuked Japan essentially as an experiment in atomic warfare could be considered "politically correct" for the most part you, uh … knowhatImean? ;-)
"All life is equal"
I'm sorry, not in a war it isn't
"as is all death. It has no nation or altruistic meaning, at least not to the dead."
You got that exactly correct. So the real discussion should be how to make sure some other nut like GWB can't start his own little war again.
"No one can justify such an act of terrorism yesterday"
I simply disagree and I certainly don't call it terrorism unless you'd care to apply the term to every single act in WW2, then I'd agree.
"and much less tomorrow."
Here we totally agree. Never again.
One other thing, "millions of innocents" simply won't fly in Viet Nam. If over a million of those were shooting at you I'd hardly term them innocents. Over half the civilians were killed by the enemy and the rest by us, those I would term innocents.
Andy-UK, I'm glad you write here. Saves me a lot of key strokes, couldn't agree with you more.
I believe too believe this article is more about tomorrows Hiroshima rather than yesterday's but it is more than sad to see the mentality and degree of indoctrination of some of the people here.
Dafoe wrote: "Japan the victim, bullshit, they sowed the whirlwind and reaped the harvest"
What would you say of a nation of innocent people, mostly ignorant and not too worldly, fed on propaganda of militarism and imperialism, led into wars of aggression for territorial and material gain, but most of all, taught to look down on all foreigners as inferior???
Sounds familiar enough to me. But does Kem Partick's wife or grand kids deserve 500, 9-11s all at once because he and some others like him want to believe the "truth" he has been taught? What made Alexander Solzhenitsyn great was that he was banned in his own country, and that is why most thinking Russians read his books and believed him. They at least knew that if their government and the tamed media said one thing, it was much more likely to be the other. And the lies go on today in Moscow as they do in Washington.
Did the Japanese civilians, men, women and children in Nagasaki or Hiroshima deserve to be vaporized or poisoned for the arrogance of Japanese leaders or the arrogance of American leaders who needed to "prove" their superiority to Stalin? Was it revenge? Was their another way to end the war? There is always another way, just as there are always those who will justify the deaths of millions of innocents in Viet Nam or Iraq, or tomorrow in Iran while lamenting 4,000 brave American soldiers. What a load of rubbish. All life is equal as is all death. It has no nation or altruistic meaning, at least not to the dead.
War is about making the enemy appear like the problem, while engineering it so others die for some people's delusion of superiority and righteousness. It's just about the power to delude, that "God" is on your side. It's a game for sociopaths and arrogant nationalist fools that that follow them. It is "good for nothing".
No one can justify such an act of terrorism yesterday, and much less tomorrow. By now we should know who they are and how they do it. I sincerely hope you wake up Kem….
By the way, I have continually seen you and mmany others advance the argument that terroism and murder were legitimate methods of defense for Hezbolla and other organizations. What do you call that? World citizen exceptionalism?
"Had Israel used Nuclear weapons on Lebanon, flattening the city. would a Thomas More or a kem Patrick, or others that supported the dropping of the bombs on Japan have supported it because…"
I appreciate your telling others what I would do, even if its not true.
Equating that to the bombs on Japan is simply absurd. They have no relationship to the other.
GwNorth August 7th, 2008 11:13 am
I completly disagree with your line of reasoning and certainly refute your conclusions.
Lets use a real example. Your company surrounds a village that contains about 300 NVA regulars. You know from prior experience that your best guess is in attacking you will lose about 5 to 10% of your troops and they will lose 30-40% plus some civilian casaulties (including possibly children). You also know if you await their attack you will lose approximately 18-25% of your troops and they will losde 5-10%. If you retreat your casaulty rate is doubled because of the terrain.
You can't be sure of anything, you only have your experience to go on.
So I ask you what do you do? And why?
Anyione else is welcome to chime in.
BTW while I understand that the element of American exceptionalism is rife on these boards from peoples such as Thomas More and Kem Patrick.
The argument they continually advance is that the use of Nuclear weapons against Japan and against Civilian targets was justified because it would save American lives.
This arguement can be used by any nation or group who wishes to use Weapons of mass destruction. Either one of two things must be true in order to support this position.
1>The person who supports their use in warfare believes that any side, be it Russian, Chinese, Israeli, Iraqi or American, that feels it will lose too many men in a conventional attack or war against an enemy , is justified in using Nuclear weapons against its enemy even if it kills hundreds of thousands or more Civilians.
I would point out that the reason the Germans used poison gas that first time in the trenches was because they were losing too many men to assault thsoe same trenches. Yet the world still saw fit to ban poison gas.
2>Americans are the excpetion. Americans were justified in using such weapons because the cause was right. Any other country that uses them in order to preserve the lives of her troops would be committing a war crime.
Japan deserved it because they started the war and were fanatics. If one side starts a war and are deemed fanatics, then the other side can use Nuclear weapons against them.
This latter reasoning opens the door to using Nuclear weapons against an Iran.
Had Israel used Nuclear weapons on Lebanon, flattening the city. would a Thomas More or a kem Patrick, or others that supported the dropping of the bombs on Japan have supported it because...
Hizbollah are fanatics.
They started it and should reap what they sow.
Israel should not have to risk her troops digging out Hizbollah. Israeli lives are paramount.
Plug in ANY country into the above examples.
PK
johnwyclif August 6th, 2008 11:14 pm
Well John, that would work here, except that if your debate opponent is claiming facts that are incorrect, you really have to point them out if possible. Its far past "I don't believe it, I know some of it isn't true.
Merek August 6th, 2008 11:21 pm
"Laying seige to a city and starving out its inhabitants has long been considered an acceptable military tactic; we would simply be extending that tactic over a whole country. The Japanese could always choose to surrender quickly to the blockade; if they didn't, the deaths from starvation would be their fault, not ours."
That is exactly my point. Some seem to keep missing the point that Japan had the choice not to attack us in the first place. And in this case had the option of surrendering at any time. I frankly can't understand why people feel the need to blame the war no us. Or to say, shame, you should have let your enemies win.
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"What your dad says is immaterial. he was not privy to the Japanese attmepts at surrender. He was trained my a Military that claimed the japs were little better then beasts and where they had been demonized as all armies demonize the enemy. His perspective is as jaded as that of the person who fights in Iraq ."
I'm curious as to what you base yopur opinions on as to the training my Dad recieved? Do you know when he went thru basic training?
I certainly will take their word for it rather that some egghead professor who studied it later, looking at reports and gets half the facts wrong. Thats reality.
"They had days and day to surrender before the bombing and days and days after to surrender. They didn't do so for NINE days. How can you possibly believe that anyone deciding on a campaign to invade Japan (Truman) would have any real reason to believe that they were going to really lay down their arms."
I'm going to use this quote from another poster who beat me to it. If they were about to surrender, if they were on their last legs, if you have a credible explanation for this, I'd love to hear it.
By the way, do you think the Germans or Japanese would have hesitated to drop their atom bombs on us if they had been sucessful in time?
"I find that hard to reconcile."
You obviously cannot differentiate between war and what it means and peace.
You bet your bippy I value my Marines lives over the enemies. You are highly unlikely to survive thinking I'll let them kill me because our lives are of equal value.
I believe you have never faced that real choice, so I feel my opinion is better. War is war. It is not a classroom exercise.
I find it telling that you pick a scenario that gives me the choice of killing children or our own Marines. Think about your illustration as an argument.
Jack Nelson Steward August 7th, 2008 9:38 am
Well, you were mostly right. But would you consider it that much of a crime if you were sitting out in those assault crafts? Not the politically correct answer thats so easy now. No offense intended.
In fact I intend no offense to anyone. This just happens to be a very real part of history to me and I have talked to too many guys that were there to buy the revisionist history developed in the fifties and sixties for political purposes. Or the effort to portray the Japanese as victims.
Last, I would suggest you check out the number of casaulties in 1945 in the Pacific. There seems to be an opinion that the Japanese were had quit fighting and were just waiting for the invasion.
Well, much has been said.
It has come to look this way to me:
We were shocked, terrified and enraged by a surprise attack by a powerful State whose military had demonstrated its willing savagery in other places it had attacked earlier.
We went to war against this State and crossed the Pacific Ocean taking tiny island by tiny island in savage fights that took tens of thousands of the lives of our soldiers and sailors and airmen.
We were tired of war, we were enraged and we were losing ever more thousands of lives even in victory as we approached the home islands of our enemy. We had seen how our enemy had turned even tiny islands like Iwo Jima and Chi Chi Jima into honeycomb fortresses. We actually took Chi Chi by blockading it until there wasn't an edible morsel left for the population. There's a hint there for later.
We had developed the supreme weapon, a relatively small single bomb that could accomplish with a single plane what we had been accomplishing with hundreds. We had tested it in the desert and we knew it worked but we had only speculation and hypotheses about its actual effects as a weapon of war.
Japan presented a perfect opportunity for a real world test of that weapon. They were savage aggressors, had committed known atrocities, and could easily be portrayed as suicidal maniacs who would never surrender their home islands. We had already been firebombing their cities, causing tens and even hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties.
We had the experience of island fighting across the Pacific and our whole nation was aware of the extreme price we had paid for even tiny places far from Japan. It was easy to expand on that experience and portray the invasion of the Japanese homeland as an inevitable horrific disaster coming soon to a neighborhood near you.
We could strike Japan and have our vengeance for Pearl Harbor. No one in the world could easily condemn the strike, portrayed as an alternative to a horrible invasion of the Japanese homeland necessary to end the war.
We got to drop our new and untried weapon on a real city, two, in fact, and create a perfect real world laboratory for the study of the effects of nuclear weapons. We could study everything from the initial blast and radiant heat damage to the lingering effects of remaining radiation on a civilian population. We could walk around a real city and study the actual effects of all the aspects of an atom bomb on every kind of structure and infrastructure in a modern city.
Not only that:
We could instantly command the undivided attention of both the Soviet Union, which had shown its incredible strength, tenacity and willingness to commit to and succeed in fierce and trying struggles, and the Chinese, who just plain outnumbered almost everyone else on the planet and needed to have some restraint installed in their worldview.
AND ... We became that crazy sumbitch down the block who actually SHOT THE TIRES off his neighbor's truck after the guy parked it over the lot line. WO! Yeah, the guy's nutty as a squirrel supermarket, but ya GOTTA listen to what he says onna count of ....
Yeah, I think, given that the Japanese had NO allies by 1945, that they lived on an island with nowhere NEAR the resources needed to actually support their population without trade from outside, that we enjoyed complete air supremacy over their entire country and that their government had made peace overtures already, and that we and OUR allies, now unopposed and in command of the most powerful naval forces left on the planet, could have successfully cut the Japanese off and caused them to surrender the way we did Chi Chi Jima, there was no reason whatsoever to invade Japan. When the situation got bad enough the Japanese could choose: Surrender into the arms of a benevolent victor or suffer further. We could justify containing them and letting them have the consequences of their choices.
But we were tired, pissed, and had a new weapon and an opportunity to actually try it out on a real enemy toward which no one else in the world was too very sympathetic. We could scare shit out of people we could already see we were going to have some trouble with in the future and get some "cred" on the street for being authentically dangerous.
It was a perfect convergence of circumstances and we took it.
And that's what it looks like to me.
Just for clarity: I think the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the most heinous of crimes.
No Bubby, not the same guy, not yet been to the glorious "land down under", but wish I could live there or New Zealand. It does seem that there are a number (quite a few actually) Zionist Jews, who welcome the apocalypse/Armageddon. How they can bring to play such influence, I just don't know. You only have to look at the media, and big business, but most worryingly, the law and politics.
Are you the same Andy that used to live in Henley Beach South in Australia? If it is...thank you for starting me into searching for the truth with regard to our current topic and the disease that is Capitalism. If not you speak like him and I agree with you anyway. Israeli leadership is the biggest threat we have today toward other nations. Supported by the US and a few others they are trying to destroy the world and most people in it. The good news is that most of the world is waking up and this will all come to an end.
Between Israel and the US how do we establish who the monkey is and who the organ grinder is.If we can demystify the whiteness that some Jews allude to like Paul Wolfowitz etc than we can move ahead and treat both nations in the middle east equally,while the western media treats Israel as white and western and the other as black, backward and unsophisticated there will be no end in sight.The play white status of Jews around the world has never been questioned by the media, why?Both nations are semites how can the one be black and the other white, that is an untruth.
Kem, I was beginning to think that I was the only person who had picked up on John Pilger's point, about a possible first strike against Iran. But no, thankfully Rebelnow saw the connection. Sadly, three or four people out of ninety six comments, is not very many. As you say Kem, there is no comparison between the second World war, and the events which led to the invasion of Iraq, and now the never ending rhetoric, which seems to be aimed at another conflict with Iran.
John Pilger is correct, when he speaks about Gordon Brown "alluding" to the misquoted words of Ahmadinejad, there have been many in the UK, who have been guilty of that recently. It just goes to show, that if you tell a lie enough, then people will start to believe it. Every time a news article relating to Iran's nuclear programme, and possible UN sanctions appears, it is accompanied by the words "wipe out Israel" or "destroy Israel". This is not just the tabloid press, but formerly respected news sources.
Israel is the big worry, because I think there are too many Israelis with the same mindset as Benny Morris, people who want to see death and destruction on a terrible scale, people like Dick Cheney, Carl Rove and Paul Wolfowitz, who are consumed by hate, and who are quite simply - terrorists.
That may be very valid point ~REBELNOW~, I had not even considered it.
I guess that may be, because I do not place our actions of WW-2 in the same light as the illegal war and occupation of Iraq and the unjust threats against Iran. I don't believe nukes would be used if Bush, McCain or Obama ever did the unimaginalbe and stated a war there. They might authorize that though. DU is alright with all of them.
I will never understnad why the nations of this planet cannot get along.
From Homo Sapiens to Homo Stupidus to Home Extinctus. And extinct means forever!
Of the 92 comments so far, only 3 make reference to what I think was Pilger's primary intent, that being a warning about Israel's belligerent threats to use nuclear weapons against Iran. To quote from the article,
"This progression of lies has brought us to one of the most dangerous crisis since 1945, because the real threat remains almost unmentionable in western establishment circles, and therefore in the media. There is only one rampant nuclear power in the Middle East and that is Israel".
It's so easy to get caught in the drama of history, but, again quoting from the last lines of the article,
"The question begs; are the rest of us to be mere bystanders, claiming as good Germans did, that 'we did not know'"?
I'm sorry if any others popped in and read the argumentative posts here, because no one learns anything from those tyes of angry disagreements. There was no fair debate type of discussions, like: "Is that link credible, or perhaps this link shows another side of the coin, etc.
Anyway the pilot of the Japanese bomber that tested the feasibility of bombing the U.S by the use of submarine aircraft carriers, was Mr. Nobuo Fijita. His story has a happy ending. His bombs struck nine miles west of the city of Brookings, Oregon on Sept, 9th, 1942. No serious damage was done and the fire crews put the small forest fire out. But the test run was sucessful.
When the I-400s were ready and if they had atomic bombs ready, they could easily atomic bomb cities in the United States. According to several articles available, by Googling Japan's atomic weapons program they came very close to success in that endeavour and that was what Harry S. Truman was worried about.
After the war, Mr. Fajita visited the citizens of Brookings, Oregon and in an act of friendship, he gave the city his 400 year old family Samurai sword. He also planted a tree at the site where one of his bombs had struck. He was made an honorary citizen of Brookings and students from Brookings visited his home in Japan. He made several visits to the city and the people there loved him. He even got an "Attaboy" from President Ronald Reagan.
~MEREK~ I'm really sorry about your obvious hostility towards me. I had posted comments that Japan had a nuclear weapons program and they had one long before we began our Manhatten project. They also had the means to deliver atomic bombs to any city in the U.S. and prior to 1941, they formulated plans on doing just that if their atomic weapons program was successful.
I have posted links to back up what I wrote and there are many others available if you or anyone else wishes to look them up, and I don't understnd why you say I have no evidence, no argument, nothing. I did not come here to argue, I came to offer some inffomation that some may not have ever known about and obviosly you were one who did not know and apparantly you don't wish to hear it. And I do not care if you do or do not.
Now if you choose to not believe the evidence I have offered, that's perfectly fine with me, but there is no reaso for you to be hostile or rude, as Misanthorpe was. If you cannot be civil, don't reply to me, just scroll on by my posts.
As to your question, how does anyone answer a hypothetical question? I cannot answer it, as I was not privey to the decisions of the Japanese army staff, or the emperor of Japan. I don't know that Japan had an atomc bomb ready for use in August of 1945. They may have failed to sucessfully test one. They may have had some prepared and the emperor refused to use them. I don't know. ___ Do you?
My "entire point" was and is: ___ president Truman knew the Japanese were trying to develop atomic weapons and believed that if they were sucessful, they would surely use them against our troops, or even our cities. And you say that is not so, but you offer nothing to back up your words and explain why the links I posted are incorrect. So let's you and I just ignore each other here.
There is only one word to describe the American media, "whorific".
Kem Patrick: You have no evidence, no argument, nothing. We all know what the Iraqi WMD claims, as published in America's "most highly regarded newspaper", the New York Times, were worth. I doubt the media in Japan are any more reliable.
You have avoided answering my questions (see message 82). I don't have to respect you until you do answer them convincingly.
I am still convinced that a blockade of Japan, as enforced by the navy and air force, would have resulted in surrender quite quickly. Japan was running out of everything -- food, oil, raw materials -- by late 1945. They could not possibly have held out for much longer.
Good riddence ~Misanthorpe~, It was you who started unnecessry insults here as usual, not I.
What ever is convenient for the winning side will be done, no matter what cost. I can't help feeling that America did what it did with the belief that it would come out of the war remaining the only world power, and or, if not that, remaining the dominant capitalistic engine of the world. It did not last long, and America's influence was always enhanced by what appears to me to be fundamentally unfair practices disguised as the workings of the free market.
It is a crime, and thoes crimes have continued. Thank you Pilger for stateing the blindingly obvious. It gives me comfort that someone out there writes about it....
At the end of the day if humans are killed be it one or many is an in-justice. If we accept this then we should accept it when someone comes over and bombs our families and people. It is truly going to turn around. Western aggression has gone to a point where it needs to stop or it will be us that get blown to bits. Russia and China are ready and let's hope they don't get angry. Peace is definitely the answer for all.
So much rubbish about hiroshima, Japan the victim, bullshit, they sowed the whirlwind and reaped the harvest. You can connect all manner of dots in the archives and prove one thing or another but I wasn't there in that "fog of war" nor was the writer and I believed Harry Truman, the last decent President this country has had. Sorry try convincing some one else.