Shining a Light on US Sbuses
While the Canadian government has supported many of George W. Bush's shameful policies of torture, indefinite detention, illegal surveillance, etc., a young Canadian in New York has been standing up for the rule of law - American law and international law.
For more than six years now, Jameel Jaffer has been challenging the president's penchant for operating above the law in the name of fighting terrorism.
Think of the abuse of prisoners, from Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay to Afghanistan; of "extraordinary renditions" (Maher Arar) and the CIA's black sites (secret prisons on foreign soil); and some of the Orwellian manifestations of the Patriot Act (such as the FBI swooping down on libraries, book stores, universities, etc. to gather their lists of clients and slapping a gag order to prohibit the institutions from breathing a word about the visits).
Jaffer, 36, has been in the thick of these battles waged by the American Civil Liberties Union, the world's largest civil liberties organization (about 600,000 members). Of the hundreds of suits it has brought against the Bush administration, he has been at the centre of the most important ones.
Born in Kingston, he studied in Toronto at Upper Canada College, graduated from the prestigious Williams College, trained as an investment banker in Manhattan, abandoned it, did a masters at Cambridge University and went to Harvard Law School. He clerked at the U.S. Court of Appeal in New York and then with Beverley McLachlin, chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada.
Litigating under the Freedom of Information Act, he has helped unearth about 100,000 pages of secret documents relating to interrogation and detention policies.
These disturbing autopsy reports, interrogation orders, official emails and memos have since been compiled in a book, Administration of Torture: A Documentary Record from Washington to Abu Ghraib and Beyond (Columbia University Press, 2007). The book "distills the essence of an evil that has shamed America," as one reviewer put it.
Jaffer's co-author was a fellow-attorney at the ACLU, Amrit Singh (Cambridge, Oxford and Yale Law School). She is the daughter of India's prime minister, Manmohan Singh, who works closely with Bush, while she has been a harsh critic of the president. That prompted speculation about a chill descending over a 2004 Bush-Singh meeting in New York, but she dismissed it by saying that her dad had brought her up to think independently.
Jaffer, who I met in Toronto and with whom I have since had several conversations on the phone, speaks in precise language, with the calm confidence of one who has mastered the details of his many briefs.
Take torture, the tale of which has emerged only in dribs and drabs since Abu Ghraib came to light in 2004. That was also the year when an August 2002 memo from the justice department surfaced, arguing that it's torture only if it causes the kind of pain associated with "organ failure, impairment of bodily function or even death."
Jaffer and his colleagues were recently able to pry loose two more equally revealing memos.
One that they got last week told the CIA which interrogation methods it could use against prisoners at the black sites, including waterboarding. (The simulated drowning technique was used during the Inquisition and also during World War II by the Japanese, whom the U.S. later prosecuted).
The second memo was written, in 2003, by the infamous John Yoo, the justice department lawyer, a.k.a. Dr. Yes for endorsing torture. The memo was addressed not to the CIA but to the Pentagon (which controls Guantánamo Bay).
Jaffer: "The justice department gave interrogators a green light for torture. The abuse at Guantánamo and elsewhere was the direct result of policies endorsed by the administration's most senior officials."
This puts Abu Ghraib in the proper context.
At that time, Bush claimed the abuses were an aberration, by rogue soldiers ignoring orders. But, thanks to the diligent work of Jaffer's team and other civil libertarians, it's clear that the abuse was systemic and had already been tried out at Guantánamo. Abu Ghraib was, in fact, being Gitmo-ized when the horrible pictures were leaked.
Congress ultimately responded by restoring the Army Field Manual, which required the military to comply with the Geneva Conventions that Bush had set aside.
Last year, Bush exempted the CIA from the Congressional stricture against torture. Congress followed with another bill banning the CIA from using torture. Bush vetoed the bill last March. But he continues to deny that the CIA uses torture, the denial resting on doublespeak: The CIA uses "enhanced interrogation techniques," including waterboarding, which is not torture.
The CIA also retains its black sites. Jaffer: "Since the president announced in September 2006 that the administration would shut down the secret CIA prisons, more prisoners have been transferred from the CIA to Guantánamo ... Obviously, at least some of the secret prisons are still operating. We don't know how many prisons there are, how many prisoners they hold and what interrogation methods are being used."
Such is the record of the Bush administration related to detentions and treatment of prisoners in its custody.
It is good to know that a Canadian is exposing it, especially at a time when Prime Minister Stephen Harper finds very little wrong with it.
© Copyright Toronto Star 1996-2008
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64 Comments so far
Show Allelmysterio
No...never ever...I don't target defenseless civilians because they have different religious views from my own....all peoples may have their own beliefs...so long as they at least respect mine (or don't try to kill me because I don't hold theirs)....live and let live...but I have no problem sending those who do straight to hell
SnowWolf said: "if Obama said he was going to kill terrorists I might give him a second look"
Ever stopped to think that you are the terrorist?
Jim Glover...I like McCain...his age is a factor...you can't deny that
if Obama said he was going to kill terrorists I might give him a second look...
Marc, I am a guy who likes to find out why you like to take satisfaction in black people or anyone dying of Aids.
Does it make you feel you are better than others?
SnowWolf, who of the candidates, take National Security seriously the most?
No...I am not a Racist...Assholes come in all colors...Red yellow Black white and brown
I be who I be. Jim Glover who be ye?
Anyone who will take National Security seriously...
SnowWolf,
Who do you want to be the next president?
marc, if the silver lining is "at least aids is killing more fruitcakes, blacks and wacked-out-druggies." as you say, your comments are worse than a fruitcake's. Are you a racist?
skidog
do a little research...the 600,000 (to 1.2? million Iraqi deaths was debunked over 2 years ago...the U.N. places the death toll at around 60,000...and most of them killed by AQI and the Sunni/Shia violence on each other
I believe you are referring to the Lancet study?...its false...I promise you..check it out
As I said on a related topic...
Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus and had the entire Maryland State Legislature jailed until they signed an oath of Allegiance to the Union...Roosevelt knew he was committing a Civil Rights abuse against Japanese Americans in the Internment Camps...doesn't justify it but just to put things into perspective...through the prism of History things are likely to look differently...hindsight and all that
and Obama can't close the deal (c'mon be honest with me)...because he seems to stand for whatever you want to hear...I really believe the Guy is consumed with being President and will say anything to get there...people are beginning to notice
and don't worry...you aren't offending me (even those of you trying to)...
Me too Snow Wolf-welcome and post ofter. Your posts help me understand why the polls show McSame and Obama almost tied in the polls. The power of the MSM to led the great un-washed into believing bullshit just overwhelms me.
But, then again, there were people who went back to their offices after the planes hit the Trade Towers on 9/11; there were probably people who continued to polish the brass on the Titanic after it hit the ice cube.
As for all of the other folks who post to this site, I say: Don't expect Obama, Nader or Jesus to restore US to what we use to be. Power never gives up power. The evil genie is out of the bottle and the only hope is for the Third Estate to wake up to the realization that the estate is comprised mostly of peasants. The next step down the social ladder is slave. As my son's Mother-in-law said: "George Bush, all the way."
All War Crime flows from the FIRST ILLEGAL ACT-AGGRESIVE WAR.That's what the Nuremburg(sp?)Tribunal concluded.
SnoWolf (above)offers concern that a poster may be a victim of a suicide bomber,what pray-tell about the 1.2 MILLION IRAQIS snuffed out by DUMBYA & Co. ?
Wake Up and smell the FASCISM , SnoWolf.
On the positive side of things, at least aids is killing more fruitcakes, blacks and wacked-out-druggies. I always look for the silver lining.
Snow Wolf--
You got it.
While I disagree strongly w/you and hope that you change your views, I wish you--and all of us--peace.
I simply can't believe the depths to which we as a nation have descended. Our tactics for "making the world a better place" are to declare war and torture. And this from self-professed Christians, without a trace of irony. Gonzo, Bush, Rice, Feith, Cheney, et al, are in for a rude awakening upon Death. If there is a Hell, its fires burn for them.
zzz August 4th, 2008 4:58 am asked
ezeflyer,
"I think Kennedy was murdered because he wanted to disassemble the CIA."
"Do you have any evidence to support that JFK was going to disassemble the CIA?"
It seems to have been hearsay. I found this:
"Although President Kennedy was somewhat dissatisfied with the CIA after the Bay of Pigs invasion, there is no evidence that Kennedy actually wanted to break up the agency at anytime, even when he instituted his reviews. His statement about splintering the CIA was likely made in a moment of frustration with the Bay of Pigs failure."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jfk_cia.htm
No offense taken...
"Here's hoping something or someone knocks some sense into you.
Peace."
I guess I just found the irony there...thanks for the smile
Seriously though...and what I enjoy most about being in these discussions (and this is my ego talking)...I feel in a perfect world that your views would be absolutely correct...and since I know we don't live in a perfect world mine seem more reality based...(and I'm not trying to insult you...honestly)
Your views are very correct...Philosophically
Jeez, Snow Wolf, you are a piece of work.
Sy Hersch is but one example.
And your statement that torture works ignores the very real moral and legal issues I pointed out. Nor do you address the very real fact that torturing people creates more terrorists, if anything.
And I never defended the Dems for their complicity. They are complicit, and one we are pretty sure is not, Kucinich, you dismiss out of hand.
Bill of Rights is not a suicide pact, sure, but neither is it negotiable, nor amendable by the folks who find it inconvenient.
So, given that you simply blow off torture as necessary and OK if it is done with the proper motivation, I again invite you to be tortured...or maybe you should simply be shot as a complicit war criminal, with Gonzales, Yoo, and the rest of the freaks.
I haven't had my coffee yet, and your casual, matter of fact cruelty is even more terrifying than before. Here's hoping something or someone knocks some sense into you.
Peace.
I think Snowwolf watches to much fox news
Hollow point...well...I'll take that as a compliment
unfortunately I haven't been "carded" in years
(snowbunny?...that conjures pleasant thoughts)
Kalia
Again a story that Americans would be interested in has to come from a source OUTSIDE america. Toronto Star is a good read and I make point of picking up a copy 2 or 3 times a week. Toronto Star has the nuts to print the truth and is printed in Canada's largest city so few americans will see the story but on CD. You have to remember most americans still think Saddam did 911.
matti...told you I was working on my first cup of coffee...*s*
Wow ~SnowWolf~ you're just all over the place -mentally and logically speaking- aren't you?
Four points:
1. Your Supposition that there are, in fact, persons on this planet that are unified enough in object and method to be given the label "terrorists" is unproven, and likely unprovable. Once one begins with this notion of "terrorists" who are simply "out to get us" -apparently in the same straightforward and natural way that a Koala is "out to get" Eucalyptus leaves- then of course one's logic will draw one in the direction you have gone: "We" MUST be protected from the "terrorist masterminds", after all, mustn't we? A similar mistake happens with the label "criminals", as in: "I'm for putting more Criminals behind bars". The problem -just as with "terrorists"- is that there is NO SUCH GROUP as "criminals", only people who commit crimes -or acts intending to spread mayham and "terror".
What you -and those whose example you are merely emulating- are doing is trying to bend the English Language in a way that it cannot go. This is eerily reminiscent of NewSpeak and you should stop it.
2. When you claim that the torture of "three terrorist masterminds" has resulted in information that saved "hundreds if not thousands of innocent lives" you ARE NOT attempting "to prove a negative". What you ARE doing is employing Circular Reasoning. I.E.-there have not been any more 911's after Bush began authorizing torture, therefore torture is preventing more 911's. I could chalk this all up to misunderstanding except for the mendacious "(maybe yours or mine)" that you append to "...innocent lives".
Not only is this a pathetic attempt to conjure Fear in the reader -one which may qualify you for a "Right-Wing" book deal- but it is also grossly inaccurate. YOU -for example- are quite clearly guilty of mangling the language and exitedly repeating things you have heard but not understood, while I -for another example- am obviously guilty of being a pompous windbag. So, I ask you, where are these "innocents" of which you "speak"?
Now two quick ones:
3. Who can be so Naive as to think that the Military and the Spooks didn't use torture BEFORE any of this publicity on the subject? The purpose now is to make torture Legal and in the open. More for the distraction value of the "debate", the Constitution Raping value of the legal arguments, and the psyops value of "preparing the people for autocracy" than anything else, I'd imagine.
4. "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for God. As in the God of Abraham. As in the God that helped George W. Bush get over drinking. Same God. No Messiah. No Son of God. One extra Prophet. Different Book. That's Islam.
Your sentence (fragment) should -assuming it is intended to be written in English in its entirety- read:
"DON'T TAKE UP ARMS FOR GOD!"
Let's use a partial translation from a different language to make this more clear:
"DON'T TAKE UP ARMS FOR DIOS!"
Whoa, what sort of freaky Religion prays to "Dios"? We better stop those scary Foreigners!
--------
In short, I disagree with the "people" who have thanked you for "adding" something to CD.
I find your posts quite ignorant and unoriginal.
I find your (apparent) stance on Torture and Abuse of Powers quite disgusting and cowardly.
And I find the lilly-livered response to your posts pathetic, but sadly predictable.
I sincerely hope that you and your "sudden friend" ~notsonaive~ are paid shills or pranksters -the thought of you being actually real and genuine is just a bit too dreary for me.
Have Fun,
-matti.
Since he has Muslim sounding name his investigative reports will not be granted much credence by the media and public at large. Moreover the American public will perceive him as someone who has a patriotism problem just as they do for Obama.
THE USA/israel ARE WRONG, out of control. Impeach is the only answer. Put the top people who are so controlled in jail or out of power and the next person in charge would maybe wake up.
As for snow wolf or bunny what ever, glad IT isn't old enough to vote.
The problem with Journalists like Sy Hersh (and others) is that they find a source that seems credible (a la Jesse Macbeth)...and they are so idiologically bent...they don't delve it for accuracy (are you listening, Dan Rather?)...and when the story unravels the correction is printed so tiny that no one ever sees it let alone reads it..
"A lie can go around the world twice before the truth gets its shoes on" -Mark Tawin
Curmudgeon
and we can agree to disagree..(America...what a country!)
and it doesn't mean I don't like you on a personal level...isn't that a wonderful concept?...I don't want to see you harmed by some whacked out suicide bomber
ezeflyer,
"I think Kennedy was murdered because he wanted to disassemble the CIA."
Do you have any evidence to support that JFK was going to disassemble the CIA?
Welcome, Snow Wolf
Thanks for coming and forcing some posters to take another look at their beliefs
Welcome, Snow Wolf
Thanks for coming and forcing some posters to take another look at their beliefs.
P.S. - I definitely do NOT agree with your views.
thepuffin
Sure...I'll answer (to the best of my ability)...I am still on my first cup of coffee so hopefully I can be coherent...*s*
I believe with all my heart that when one decides to become a terrorist..and terrorism isn't nuanced...the left likes to slap moral relativism on terrorism (IE; one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter) nonsense...attack on the USS Cole?...NOT a terrorist act...attack on the World trade center?...DEFINITE terrorist act...when your primary target is the defenseless..that is terrorism...concept? ...these guys have pretty much turned in their membership card to the human race...and in accordance with the "Law of Armed Conflict" have no enforceable rights...Bad Supreme Court decisions aside their treatment by us has been way better than is called for under international law...
That being said...lets take the arguable position that three terrorist masterminds were captured by Military and or Paramilitary anti-terror assets of the U.S. ...We knew exactly who these guys were...this isn't Achmed the full time taxi driver who takes potshots with his AK at US FOB's at 2 in the morning...these Guys were big fish...and we knew that other (perhaps even more spectacular) plans were at that moment being "Hatched"...as a famous Supreme Court Justice once said..."The Bill of Rights is NOT a suicide pact"...my point is (if you reread my initial post) that both Republican and Democrat Leadership...BOTH sides of the aisle ...were informed of what was going to happen to these Guys and gave their seal of approval...and I can't prove a negative however its extremely likely that hundreds if not thousands of innocent lives (maybe yours or mine) were saved as a result of that action...does waterboarding suck?...YOU BET...its supposed to...but its a fact that if you ever find yourself as a prospective Navy SEAL Candidate...or Green Beret...hell...special warfare folk in general, you will get to experience it for yourself...not to teach you to do it...but to demonstrate how easy it is to get you to tell them whatever you know...mucho rapido!
bottem line...this was done with the complete knowledge of Congress...not just Bush and Gonzales (although the Democrats are excersizing their little ruse of plausible deniability)...but sometimes...you gotta do what you gotta do....hopefully that was a semi-coherent response to your question...have a nice day
Oh...and I am calling calling "Bullshit" on Sy Hersh...he is (as they say) "talking out his ass" and it isn't the first time...
And everyone needs to read Alfred McCoy's book, "A Question of Torture".
We get such bullshit like, Americans didn't know how to torture. (Jane Mayer)
And, we had to learn from the Chinese how to torture. Please!!
The US spent billions of dollars researching the best way to torture, and came up with very effective methods. Lost cost and easy to learn and implement. We see them used at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. (Waterboarding is horrific, but not the only torture!)
http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2008/02/waterboarding-only-torture.html
I know that Bush stole the 2004 election, as well as the 2000 one, and I'm pretty sure that Calderon stole the election. Does anyone know about Harper?
I actually know quite a few pro-war people. Some are complete assholes, but most are just ordinary americans who don't read, and don't think. They get their news and their opinions from the TV and from their family, friends and church. They have been told that they and their children are at risk, and they must kill to protect them. Americans watch "justice" done on TV and in the movies, and it's ALWAYS total evil versus total good, and when "good" kills "evil", everyone cheers and there is a great sense of relief, that now the good and innocent are safe.
That's why I think that most Americans support mass murder in other countries. If they actually had to face the reality of what their country was doing, ie: if they saw pictures of the dead and saw the grieving families on TV, they would be horrified. That is why the news is censored. No dead Iraqi children. No dead American soldiers. Not even returning caskets are shown.
Speaking of false confessions gained by torture, has anyone heard the story of John "W" McCain?
Torture is not about getting information, its about sewing fear among the targeted population, satisfying the savage urges of the torturers, and *getting false confessions*. The USAF recognized this when it studied torture techniques of the Chinese and produced a 1957 report entitled "Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions from Air Force Prisoners of War". This report became the basis for torture-resistance training of US troops, then eventually became a kind of torture guide used to satisfy Bush's mandate for torture.
The false confessions help the torturers to complete their pathetic moral book-keeping and to shore up political support at home. They don't need proof, and they aren't very finicky or self-critical. Its easy for them to convince themselves, and the frightened populace from whom they want continued political support. All they need to tell the people is that they only torture the bad ones, and that they are all confessed terrorists. Then they can go to bed secure in the knowledge that "history" will judge that they did the right thing.
This isn't speculation. Bush's pre-war claims of operational links between Al Qaeda and Iraq was based on false confessions obtained through the torture of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, a Libyan picked up in late 2001. He later recanted and said that he was just telling his torturers what they wanted to hear. THE FALSE CONFESSION OBTAINED BY TORTURE OF AL LIBI HELPED BUSH TO OBTAIN POLITICAL SUPPORT FOR HIS REGIME.
So, that's the purely utilitarian argument against torture.
I'm opposed to torture for two other non-utilitarian reasons.
First, because its extrajudicial and not based on any trial or evidence, it disproportionately affects the innocent. We know for a fact that innocent people like Maher Arar (Canadian) and Kahled Masri (German) have been tortured by the US and its agents.
Second, its inhumane. Its like beating your dog (or your wife or your kids for that matter). Some of us don't wait around to hear the arguments about how beating can be beneficial. We just don't do it, period.
SnowWolf:
I'm afraid that even if you were correct in your assertions that 3 people were waterboarded, you would still be wrong. Morally and legally.
Morally--it should not even be debated.
Legally: waterboarding is torture--we prosecuted Japanese for it as a war crime after WWII and the Geneva Conventions and the US War Crimes Act make it crystalline, even for someone like you, who apparently has never read these things.
But but but, you may splutter (not unlike the man/woman who has been drowning on the waterboard) by using these 'techniques' lives were saved.
I doubt it. Let me waterboard you for a few minutes, and I'll get you to admit you planned 9-11, routinely screw your mother (even if she is dead), and sell heroin and meth to kindergarteners, on the days you aren't drinking the blood of satanically sacrificed virgins and priests.
The tortured will say anything to end it, which is why even the kangaroo court military tribunals are having trouble getting convictions, and the CIA, FBI, and each branch of the military, until very recently, refused to condone it.
Can't you see that by participating in or condoning torture, you have lost your soul, your humanity, and only create persons (the tortured, their families and countrymen) who now feel that such methods are permissible/necessary against us. Wouldn't you want to get back at me after I tortured you...or your wife and kids, in front of you?
You need to inform yourself, my friend. Sy Hersch has already written about U.S.interrogators raping children in front of their parents to get them to talk, and that was in like 2004.
But like I said, it doesn't matter. Three victims of waterboarding is three too many. Whatever the solution to terrorism, it most assuredly is not torture.
If you can respond intelligently, I would be happy to hear it. But based on what I've read thus far, I am not optimistic. You and folks who think like you frighten me more than any terrorist, because, um, you are a terrorist, and you're RIGHT HERE WITH US.
Peace.
Bush is a war criminal. But don't forget the Republican AND Dem leaders too.
Personally I love the passion shown in the posts here...its really revealing of the deep held beliefs of everyone who comes here...can't say I agree with all I read but I see some very good points made...on all sides
How do you know, who told you. Maybe your sources of info are as f-ed up as everyone else. Convince me you alone know the truth and we can crown you king. Convince me of what truth is?
Then you are the narrow minded fool my elders talk about? pleased to meet you.
There are many, many people, who take everything that is being said on MSM news as the gospel truth. They do not know they are being lied to, they don't recognize spin and bias, etc. etc. No, perhaps they don't choose to be brainwashed but, they, in fact, are. I know many people who are exceptionally intelligent and accomplished people but have no interest in politics and assume the MSM is an unbiased source of information.
Why would I want to walk a mile in the shoes of someone who I find politically repulsive? To understand their rationalizations that it's okay to attack and slaughter people in other countries so they can exploit their natural resources? To understand their rationalizations to justify torture? To understand how they think it's okay to let children die because of lack of health care? No thanks. I don't want to step in those bloody shoes.
No, I don't have all the answers - I don't have many answers. But I do know how to differentiate between humane governments and imperialist fascist governements and their leaders.
oh stop it. No body is brainwahed unless they choose to be. I know everyone here thinks they are the "enlightened" ones and the chosen ones. Only CD bloggers have all the answers and solutions. But maybe you do not. Maybe your answers and solutions are no better than the next brainwashed joe or jane. Maybe you are the narrow minded brainwashed fools? Who annointed you folks Lord of Lord and King of Kings? Who? Maybe walk a mile in the shoes of someone you finds politicaly repulsive? No why try. You folks have your answers and that is that. I seek answers to solutions from anyone and everyone. I seek the answers from those left adn right, holy and unholy - so far I have discoverd there are no concrete answers just opinions. what I fear is what men have feared for eons. We relace one unjust and evil group of leaders for another unjust and evil group of leaders who confess to ahve all the answers. Nothing new under the sun.
The ones who are not brainwashed out of the 99% know full well that a politician who is actually honest and not in the pockets of the lobbyists and corporations and not covered my MSM (who are also in the pockets of corporations)...know full well that he'll never get in so why waste a vote on someone who can never win when corporations rule the government.
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country...corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war."
ABRAHAM LINCOLN
"I think I can say with pride, that we have some legislatures that bring higher prices than any in the world."
MARK TWAIN
"Senior Democratic Leadership knew that three top level terrorists had to be subjected to coercive interrogation and or waterboarded because they had critical information… "
No, those in Abu Graib or Guantanmo Bay did not the Anthrax, or 9/11. So thats the small numbers. As for the big numbers, no they also are not responsible for the millions dead and refugees in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Sadly, the top terrorists are at still at large, in control of the empire. Perhaps it would good to let you have your wicked way with them. But you have to impeach and charge them first. Or is the Sow wolf not interested in REAL terrorists.
and Kucinich got a whopping 1% of the vote because 99% of us are brainwashed?...hmmm...interesting theory...let me chew on that one awhile
SnowWolf August 3rd, 2008 6:54 pm
excuse me (its Janis Karpinski…my bad)
but Abu Ghraib WAS inder her purview
And it was on the order of the president that those prisoners be subjected to 'harsh interrogation.' She followed the orders of her CinC. In much the same way that other soldiers throughout history have committed atrocities at the order of their superiors.
Sorry snowy, your nation's claim to be a city on the hill is only true if you're talking about a hill of bones, or shit.
That's right - the most honest, courageous, outspoken candidate is labelled certfiable (SnowWolf) - anyone who calls it the way it is and asks for accountability is dismissed as insignificant and even called insane.
Listening to the US candidates from Canada, I would say that Kucinich's values and policies came the closest to a vision of a humane and a sane society.
Many of us think USA is an insane imperialist country. USA is at the bottom of the barrel of developed countries when it comes to the well-being of the average citizen - education, health care, environmental protection; and on top of the list for poverty and violence, not to mention imperialism ripping off the natural resources of other countries at the barrel of a gun. I guess there are just too many SnowWolfs in your country.
I can't believe how so many of you Americans are so thoroughly brainwashed (excluding regulars at CD, etc.) to think your country is some sort of beacon on the hill. The rest of the world knows better.
excuse me (its Janis Karpinski...my bad)
but Abu Ghraib WAS under her purview
In June 2003, during the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq, Karpinski was given command of the 800 Military Police Brigade. This put her in charge of the fifteen detention facilities in southern and central Iraq run by Coalition forces. She had no experience running correctional facilities. Karpinski was also given command of the National Guard and Army reserve units in the Iraqi city of Mosul, most of whom, like her, had no training in handling prisoners. But at least two of the guardsmen who were convicted of prisoner abuse had lengthy civilian experience as prison guards.
SnowWolf;
That's three people waterboarded that we know of. Mind you, that's also three people who've not been convicted of anything who've been subjected to a controlled drowning. How many others have been tortured by order of the president? How many others have been sent to countries like Syria to be tortured in America's name?
Karpinsky was sacked not because she allowed the abuse of Abu Grab, but because she was the scapegoat for following unlawful orders. I agree that the dems are as complicit as the bush admin for these crimes against humanity. Guess what, as you paid the taxes used to pay the torturers you too are somewhat complicit in their activities.
I suppose you could claim that you're a 'good yankee' except, of course, for the fact that you cheer on such atrocities. Your opinions on this thread are like listening to David Irving's opinions about the holocaust. ie didn't happen, they deserved it, didn't go far enough...
SnowWolf---
Your ignorance and prejudice are fully on display.
Those who tortured at Abu Ghraib and were pictured laughing about it were outside Karpinski's command. Also it has recently come to light that the tortures were often micromanaged from the White House. In addition it is a certainty that many of those held at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, and black sites never took up arms for anybody, let alone Allah.
-30-
and I'll ask you the same question I asked WTF...do you want a forum or an echo chamber?
issues are more understandable when all sides of the equation are discussed
petsr4ever (nice name by the way...I agree with the sentiment)
Try wrapping your mind around this one...
Senior Democratic Leadership knew that three top level terrorists had to be subjected to coercive interrogation and or waterboarded because they had critical information... and they approved of it because they knew asking "pretty please" or "name, rank and jihad number" wasn't going to cut it.
That is the reason they aren't impeaching Bush...(except for Kucinich who's certifiable and Conyers whose tried to impeach every sitting Republican President since Reagan) because sometimes...you gotta do what you gotta do
I don't know Pert4ever. I think he has as much right to be here as you do. He brings up a good point. A Clinton appointee in over her head and Bush and Co providing less than zero leadership. Recipe for disaster.
SnowWolf; go do your blogging on the right-wing conservative websites. You are one of them. You have no business on Common Dreams.
How about simulated food poisoning? That would be humane under the definition of torture wouldn't it?
We can all associate with that feeling... but imagine it going on for months!
How about Highlighting the Terorrists abuses?
This article is absolute crap...Three (yes...count em Three) terrorist Leaders (not minions) were waterboarded because they had knowledoge of ongoing terrorist followup attacks that were in motion against the U.S. those attacks were foiled because of that action...I won't shed a tear for any of them
The Failure of Abu Gharaib can be dropped in the Lap of Janet Karpinski ...a Bill Clinton selectee for Brigidair General whose primary qualification for Flag Rank was that she didn't have a Penis...when put in a position of Leadership she was in WAY over her head and never even left her Command Tent the the whole time she was in Iraq...when you have that sort of piss poor leadership at the top the entire chain of Command breaks down...and seven unsupervised idiots went on a little frolic with prisoners they were responsible for...I might add all of them (to paraphrase Groucho) Got Ten in Leavenworth, Eleven in Tenworth and Nine to Five at Woolworths...
Want to know the best way to not get shot or abused?...DON'T TAKE UP ARMS FOR ALLAH!
The Security and Prosperity Partnership is the reconstruction of the Nazi paradise. Bush (USA), Harper (Canada) and Calderon (Mexico).
Many have said that if fascism ever came to North America, it would be wrapped in friendly flags.
By CHARLES J. HANLEY and JAE-SOON CHANG, Associated Press Writers
42 minutes ago
SEOUL, South Korea - South Korean investigators, matching once-secret documents to eyewitness accounts, are concluding that the U.S. military indiscriminately killed large groups of refugees and other civilians early in the Korean War.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080803/ap_on_re_as/korea_us_refugee_killings
The world awaits the war crimes trials for the horrors that the Bush regime has wrought on the world.
If there are no trials, then these kinds of crime will continue, and America will fall into a political and social abyss from which it won't emerge except by complete collapse.
Abuses, it seems that Bush's State Department is using taxpayer money to fund Myanmar communications. Our tax money also went to spy on us by our 'above the law' telcons. Will we be charged for our own Extraordinary Renditions next?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JH02Ae01.html
Water torture (waterboarding) is actually controlled drowning not simulated drowning.
I think Kennedy was murdered because he wanted to disassemble the CIA.
Bush, Cheney, Perle, Bremmer, Wolfowitz all practicing the arts of torture learned from decades of Israeli torment of their neighbors. Welcome to the New American Century.
Canadian States of America