Costitution? Fourth Amendment? What's that?

"The policies . . . are truly alarming," said Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.)

With all due respect Senator, but are you sure? Who is alarmed besides you, me and that mouse in your pocket? I don't sense any alarm from anybody else in Congress or else I'd surely notice some outrage to go along with the alarm.

Today laptops. Tomorrow your home.

first frog:
---"hey, did this pot of water just get hotter?"

second frog:
---(mumble) nah, it's just your imagination, go back to sleep (zzzz)."

Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials" as well as images of child pornography, [Chertoff] wrote.

Look I'm as opposed to child pornography as the next parent, but (1) how is it a matter of Homeland Security, and (2) if it's not, why is Chertoff bringing it up in his defense of his unconstitutional practices?

Answer: one more attempt by the worst administration in US history to use rabid emotionalism to create fear, in order to undermine what's left of the Constitution.

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

Does anyone know how many dangerous terrorist plotters have actually been charged with an offense thanks to all this expensive and appalling snooping?

Or how soon we will have brain scans at the border? And the threat of having brains extracted to go in a pickle jar?

Does anyone know if the Bush Administration and the multiple cronies have per chance used these measures to do a little insider trading?
Why wouldn't they? And how would we know if they did?

So the concern is the officers may experience a "dangerous, chilling effect".

What about the chilling effect this more-of-the-same-bullshit has on citizens being secure in their personal effects? What about the chilling effect this might have on the guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures?

The concern of these Nazi's is not for the welfare of US citizens, but for the comfort level of officers who are supposed to be public servants.

And of course these thugs, because thats what TSA personnel ARE, would NEVER, EVER, PLANT anything on that laptop they just stole from you.

laptops, newspapers, books & Bibles...
Why is an educated population such a threat to this government?

We keep hearing about terrorists plots being thwarted as a result of the constitution being trashed.

I don't believe a word of it.

What I believe is that countless persons have been unlawfully detained, questioned, and tortured with national security used as an excuse.

Of course any serious terrorist wouldn't carry anything with information on it through a border or customs station. Whatever he needs will be in his head. Mafia guys have the greatest memories in the world. Their lives depended on remembering an incredible number of details. Terrorists are no different. So who's stupider? The DHS clowns and their Republican enablers, or the guys who actually know their business and carry it out efficiently and ruthlessly?

Books? They're confiscating books? I wonder if they're confiscating bibles? Those books contain quite a lot of terror plots, violence, murder and pornography. Especially the older Jewish parts.

Well, I'm quite glad that I'll never have to travel into or through the usa if I don't want to. I really can't get around the idea that anyone thinks this is a good idea, or that it's legal. Then again, torture isn't legal, neither is launching wars of agression, so we shouldn't be surprised that the bush junta is taking this road. I suppose it'll be a mere matter of time before people are held at the border for weeks/months at a time before being allowed to continue their journey or deported; oops, that's already happened hasn't it?

The Republic is gone, welcome to deciderville, United Sociopaths of Amnesia.

Can anyone tell me why it is that Chertoff, who is a dual Isreali citizen, is Secretary of Homeland Security? Jesus, everytime I go to an airport, I feel like a Palestinian, guilty until proven less guilty. Mr. Chertoff is even constructing "security" walls on our southern border. What happened to America? Maybe the republic has been invaded and occupied over the last eight years, and the invaders are in the white house.

I love Big Brother.

Land of the free?
I don't understand why they...OH Right! The terrorists! Almost forgot about them.
I forgot that they are "always planning their next attack" and "hate us for our freedoms" (like our freedom to keep personal information on a laptop)
Terrorists are lurking in the bushes outside your house right now! Terrorists are hiding in the stalls in airport restrooms. Terrorists are in the sewers, the stairwells, the crawlspaces, and the elevator shafts. OH NO! Terrorists have remarkable skills and can fly jetliners, construct nuclear bombs, and manufacture synthetic viruses. Terrorists are able to evade satellites, sneak into military bases, converse undetected, and they are expert drivers. WOW!
I wonder where all these terrorists are coming from? OH yeah! Iran! The terrorist training camps are all there. In fact, the entire IRG is a terrorist organization! Our congress says so! They are ALL terrorists and the president is a "terror leader" that's attempting to build nuclear bombs to fulfill his evil world domination plot! (did I get that right?)
Osama Bin Laden was the original bad guy but didn't have enough oil to be evil. So Saddam Hussein attacked us on September 11 and we had to rid him of his oil to prevent furture attacks by his huge stockpiles of non-existent chemical bombs. After Saddam was lynched a cheer of victory went through the "free" Iraq and now we are welcomed there as liberators.
Afghanistan and the evil Taliban with their leader Osama Bin Laden (I thought he was the leader of al-quada, oh heck he's a bad guy anyway!) was oppressing their people and we have freed them and they throw roses at the feet of our troops because they are so thankful we saved them.
We have to fight these radicals! We've teamed up with Saudi Arabia and Israel to help fight against radical religious oppression!
The Chinese have to be stopped next! How dare they censor the internet, execute criminals, force a specific religion, wiretap telephones, and imprison without due cause. I heard they sometimes even confiscate people's laptops! It's a good thing I live in America where nothing like that ever happens.

Americans needed to join Hammas and visit the West Bank for this sort of treatment before our government brought it over here.

Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern said the efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy."

Why wiretap, burglarize and torture without just cause or warrant when you can search through the private thoughts, notes and address books of millions of citizens as they travel? Bravo land of the free!

And this from the guy who covered for South American death squads. Oh, if they would only apply this to government officials and corporate executives passing through customs. Welcome (again) to Fascist America. Revolution is nigh.

One more signpost of The End of America. Naomi's Wolf's book was aptly named.

So much for: Freedom of speech
Freedom from unwarranted search and seizure
Freedom of the press
Freedom of unrestricted travel
Freedom of association
Freedom of religion

Freedom period.

Apparently the U.S. government is determined to ensure that those "freedom hating terrorists" are deprived of any and all reasons for hating Americans.

Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern is right, of course, when he says that their efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy." You can't infringe on something that is non-existant.

Ahern himself, in his self-generated report, has captured, or detained, or hampered, or scared off, thousands of real and imaginary terrorists.

Some of the evil-minded got employment in the WhiteHouse from where they rain down terror on lots of people. But, they are for sure not trying to cross any borders with their laptops.

Did they confiscate Obama's laptop or any of his staff's electronic devices when they returned from their mid-east/european tour last week....? have any MSM electronic devices been detained....?

My bet is that they target little guy's and let the big fish off of the hook... Otherwise I think that this policy would be up for repeal last week....

Technically, this policy does apply to anyone who travels abroad. CEO's, Politicians, Celebrities, etc.... so why is it not being implemented evenly across the board...???

Perhaps if these "big shots" had their PDA's rifeled through, we could also eliminate or show a drastic reduction in "white collar" crimes....!!!!

KCT

Just as long as they don't dig up my potato patch.

They have been doing this for over a year now and this is nothing new. A Bush appointed judge ruled last year that lap tops are not part of luggage and for international flights, they can take yours away from you and go through all of your files and copy any of them that they wish. I suspect they could even do this for domestic flights if they wanted. If this isn't unreasonable search, I don't know what is.

"reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism?"

Hardly. Perhaps Senator Feingold would lead the charge to DISMANTLE the Department of Homeland Security and the new intelligence arrangement where all 16 or 17 intel agencies are to be managed, or so it seems, by the intelligence czar appointed by the president.

President Clinton apparently had the heads of the FBI and CIA meet often with him to keep him and each other up to date on whatever was going on. It worked. And it worked without setting up huge, unwieldy and unworkable bureaucracies that sop up billions of dollars while destroying the Bill of Rights.

I guess McCain is safe from having his laptop searched. Actually, what the early-Alzheimer's McCain remembers can be written on the back of a stamp.

As someone who has travelled abroad more than the average American with laptop in tow, this latest development is truly alarming. While on visual inspection, I do not fit their current profile for a random search, one can not rely upon that staying so forever. If anything, this measure calls for one to fall back on a basic of Computing 101, always back up your data. This can be done on a flash drive the size of a pack of playing cards.

I heard this about a month ago.

My business partner in Germany doesn't even want to do business in the states any more because of this.

" always back up your data. This can be done on a flash drive the size of a pack of playing cards." - Nate W

Don't terrorists have enough money to buy a laptop when they get here. So even if terrorists didn't have fabulous mafia memories why would they travel with laptops. Data can be stored in things not much bigger than a stamp. Gee, my digital camera can store information. Now, homeland security will want to steal my camera and the card inside it. Next thing we know there will be full body cavity searches for all air travelers. After all if you search one person you have to search them all. That's what equal protection under the law means.

I'm a Canadian who has traveled for decades to the US - once a month before 9/11. Mistreatment and hold-ups at the border have reduced my trips to a couple of times a year. Since I bring a laptop with financial and personal information on it, I guess I'll never visit the US again. It's a shame.

Hmmm... It appears the walls to keep the Americans in their own country are swiftly going up.

When you start to limit how people can travel, you stop them from communicating as effectively. Then you can control them even more.

How long before you are stopped on a street corner by a Blackwater 'security consultant' and asked 'Vhere are you papers?!'

How long before you are stopped on a street corner by a Blackwater 'security consultant' and asked 'Vhere are you papers?!'

6 to 18 months.

Every time the government does something else I think "maybe, just maybe, they'll stop now." Each time I think they've finally gone as far as they feel they need to go. But no. Now it's my laptop. I spend my entire working day with my laptop. I'm a writer of fiction and poetry. I post on blogs all over the place when I'm in the mood, and I'm never complimentary about the fascists in D.C. I email people all over the world, including places like the West Bank, Turkey, and England, as well as dissident types all over the U.S. Hell, I post here, where all of you are soooo supportive of our government. Now I don't look particularly terrifying, notwithstanding the fact that I am a mixed bag of races (uh oh) as is my husband. He is a software engineer. My computer is like my third lobe (left brain, right brain, center brain so to speak). I can save the data, no problem. But for them to take it away would be more than just taking data. It's got my journal, which I'm not esp. interested in letting ANYONE see. Ditto my current novel, or poetry that is in the process of being formed. It's PRIVATE, DAMN IT. It's MINE. I am just a normal person getting by in this increasingly hostile country, trying not to drive too much or waste money on things we don't need, and this computer is the external repository of who I AM. I'm nothing special in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't hurt a fly, I write because I must, I grow a garden, I play with my cat. Ordinary. There could never be ANY reason for someone to suspect me of being otherwise. And now I find that they don't NEED A REASON to suspect me. They can just take my computer because they feel like it. Maybe someone won't like my hair, or my smile, or the fact that I wear glasses. Or maybe they'll just be in a bad mood that day and want to take it out on someone. And then they'll read my inmost thoughts, which are nobody's business but mine, or my work, or some of the things I've written for submission to various sites that don't agree with the government's position.

I'm sorry. I'm ranting. This thing hit me between the eyes and I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I don't even have the hope that the goddamned Congress will do anything about it. I'll call the people who supposedly represent me, but I know it won't help. I guess, no more travel abroad with the laptop. I just can't risk it. It would be a little like a lobotomy to lose it.

Bet this thread gets more than a few comments.

The absurdity of the notion that detained laptops prevents child pornography and "terrist" sedition from entering the USA is that there is this thing called an Internet. It can bypass in nanoseconds all this anachronistic border patrol nonsense from anywhere in the world with virtually complete anonymity. High-grade encryption can, to all practical intents, make Internet interception futile.

Here, as usual, any of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse (Terrorists, drug dealers, organised crime and child pornography) can be invoked to cover any situation requiring invasion of privacy. It's a matter of National Security! Don't you know there's a war on?

I'd be extremely leery of keeping any competitive company information on a laptop that might be of interest to the US and in particular a US corporation, particularly one with connections to the current administration's politicians. There's big money in commercial espionage.

Encrypting the entire laptop hard drive works in principle but is defeated if the border "officers" force you to divulge the password.

Instead use the laptop just for access, keep and save all information to a central company server using encrypted links via the net and clean out the cache etc. after every log off. Stay away from memory sticks etc. and remember that deletion doesn't erase data, only overwrites and formats can do that.

Galen: Ve hef vays unt means of making your laptop talk.

Has anyone had their laptop sent to Guantanamo?

If people like Russ Feingold, Dennis Kuchinich, Barbara Boxer, Chaarles Rangel, Howard Dean, Bernie (the phony socialist) Sanders, Maxine Waters, Barbara Lee, et al -- in other words, the left-wing of the Democratic Party (which is, in reality, the left-wing of the *Business* Party) --if they had any political principles, let alone political courage, they would break away from the Democratic Party, join the likes of Cynthia McKinney, Ralph Nader et al, and establish a third party movement.

Can you imagine the *power* -- the immediate acceptance -- a party with that kind of name-recognition would have!

But they don't do that. And why? Because they're oh-so-attached to the political power -- the political *property* -- they've accumulated as part of the Democratic/Republican duopoly.

The left wing of the Democratic Party is very helpful to the economic elite in that they create the illusion that the Democratic Party will actually *do something* in times of political unrest.

They don't.

They co-opt broad-based progressive movements ... then they dilute them .. and finally they betray them.

So that, for example, the Democrats co-opting of the labor movement in the 1930s, a few years later, morphed into the Democrats winding up in bed with the likes of George Meany -- both of whom, the Democratic Party and George Meany, collaborated in selling out rank-and-file America.

... The Democratic Party sold out the working class in the years after the Civil War.

... They sold out the Populist movement in the 1890s.

... They sold out the labor movement in the 1930s.

... They sold out the civil rights movement, the environmentalist movement, the antiwar movement.

The Democratic Party betrayed the antiwar sentiment in this country four times -- count 'em -- FOUR TIMES in the past six years!

1.) In 2002, the Democratic Party told the voting public, in no uncertain terms, that the Congressional elections that year would not be about whether the US should or shouldn't invade Iraq -- invading Iraq was a done-deal, a bipartisan decision -- instead, we were told that the 2002 elections would be about "other issues." ... In other words, peace was "off the table."

That's 1.

2.) In 2004, what could have been a national referendum on Iraq, a national referendum on war or peace -- a war candidate, George Bush, versus a peace candidate, Howard Dean --instead became a choice between two war candidates: John Kerry and George Bush.

That's 2. That's the *second* betrayal in the past six years -- by the Democratic Party -- of the antiwar sentiment in the United States.

3.) In 2006, the Democrats captured both houses of Congress, chiefly because millions of Americans voted Democratic, hoping the Democrats would end the War. ...

However, in the days that followed their stunning success, the Democratic leadership wasted no time making it clear to the American public that ending the War in Iraq wasn't in the cards, it just wasn't going to happen.

Ending the War ... off the table!

Impeachment ... off the table!

But just so the table isn't completely bare, guess what? ... The possibility of war with Iran: *ON* the table! ... The possibility of war with Pakistan: *ON* the table!

That's 3. That's the *third* betrayal in the past six years -- by the Democratic Party -- of the ever-growing antiwar sentiment in the United States.

4.) Which brings us to 2008 ...

Enter Barack Obama. King of the con men.

Wonder of wonders, Barack Obama the peace candidate, has now become Barack Obama the warmonger!

And oh, thank-you-thank-you-thank-you, Barack Obama, for finally "clarifying" your position on Iraq -- Obama's position now being that if the commanders in the field say we should stay in Iraq, we stay.

The fact that Obama's now-clarified position is essentially the same as that of John McCain and George Bush has yet to make an impact on mainstream media, specifically, left-liberal media.

Moreover, Obama has the hopeful audacity to claim that -- Hey, you misunderstood. I'm not a flip-flopper. That's what I meant all along. No, really! Would I lie?
(In other words, it was *our* fault for not listening carefully.)

Obama supports two wars now in progress (Iraq and Afghanistan); and has shown a clear-cut willingness to engage in two more wars (Iran and Pakistan).

He's four-for-four!

Evidently, Obama wants to be a war president just like George Bush and John McCain want to be war presidents.

All of which guarantees that the 2008 election will, once again, *not* be a referendum on war or peace.

Today I asked a Maryland State Trooper if he's been spying on any peace activists lately? Then I told him that I'm a peace activist and asked if he'd like to spy on me. He was getting into his car and pretended to not hear me. But I wasn't more then fifteen feet away. After he got his car running he sat there looking at me. Five minutes later a Country Sheriff's car pulled up and the guy walked past me and asked "How you doin'? I told him "Lousy." Then five minutes later a city cop car pulled up and he walked right past me, checking me out. Funny, but none of them seemed interested in petting my dog. Oh, and some other guy in a suit did come right up and start petting my dog and asking me about my dog, but what he really seemed to be doing was looking right into my eyes really close to see if I might be on drugs. Cumberland, Maryland. Avoid it. IN fact, don't even drive through it on the Interstate. Find another route.

To quote Mr. Crumb from last week" I am out of here" and now I join him!

realityseeker August 1st, 2008 3:49 pm:

"I'm a Canadian ... Since I bring a laptop with financial and personal information on it, I guess I'll never visit the US again."

The solution is simply. Buy a second hard drive and install it with just the OS and browser. Put your real drive in luggage and swap drives at your destination, if your machine is not confiscated. If machine is confiscated buy a new one and charge as the cost of business.

the terrorism that our masters really fear is from their subjects, as the society continues to collapse. we are the real targets of the anti-terrorism campaign.

The real bullshit here is that those who desire to keep the material on their laptop private, know how to do that. No computer genius of any stature can get information from a system where the user does not wish it to be discovered or where it can be easily destroyed. This being the case, only average people will be affected by this nose thumbing of the constitution. Anyone with true criminal intent isn't going to leave the data on their laptop in the first place (hell with the government, someone might steal the laptop!). And while the authorities may be able to take the laptop how are they going to get that flash drive media card the size of a postage stamp that was just shoved up the ass of the would be terrorist? Wouldn't this be the test case? Can they demand to do a body or cavity search without probable cause?

And what data would the terrorist keep on the laptop that would need the power of a laptop in the first place? An email? If you use a website to check your mail there is no record on your laptop.

This pisses me off because it will do nothing to catch a terrorist. As in the examples listed in this article they didn't convict any criminals, only ticked of American citizens. How far is this from just detaining citizens for no probable cause, no suspicion? How did they decide to pick out the people in the first place?

Did the "violent jihadist materials" lead to some big terrorist bust? No, it was probably a copy of one of those graphic videos of a beheading or execution.

Here's a short term prediction: Soon buying a laptop will get you on the no-fly list. And put you on the 'Homeland Security' watchlist.

The cancer is spreading. The body of democracy is under attack by some of the most toxic egos imaginable.

I live in Bellingham, up near the Canadian border. I have done a lot of international travel in my day. This used to be the longest unguarded border in the world. Now we have uniformed thugs everywhere. In the several years of this increased border scrutiny, they have caught a number of rather stupid pot runners. No terrorists. They caught one dumbo with bomb stuff in his car, but that was before all this fooforah started. I am a backpacker and a small boat enthusiast. I can carry anything I want across this border any time I want, and these thugs, despite their high tech, cannot catch me at it. This is not about national security. It is about national supression of thought. It is about despotism. And as long as there is a television propaganda device in every living room in America, it will continue to worsen, no matter who is elected. Yes, the laptop thing is horrifying, but it is just one more nail in the coffin. I used to in favor of gun control. Not any more. We all need a few.

Michaelc - in 2003 I was at an SCA event in southern Vancouver (Whiterock actually), right up against the border fence (it was actually a farmer's fence just the other side of the ditch and cement marker that is the border).

This was just after the US had announced it was using Blackhawk helicopters to 'monitor' the US/Canada border.

There were 200-300 of us camped in our friend's family field, minding our own business,having fun and practicing medieval country dances and (safe) European martial arts.

And we spent the entire weekend under helicopter surveillance, with the helicopters violating Canadian airspace to hover right over us. And at night they would fly over and use the high intensity floodlights. Try sleeping in a tent in an open field with that happening.

I guess the US Government was afraid we would use our home-mede armor and rattan practice swords to invade.

And BTW: The SCA is on the government watchlist of 'terrorist' organizations, along with Amnesty International and Greenpeace.

" Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials" as well as images of child pornography, he wrote.

Sure they have, but you can't tell us about them cause the terrorists are listening. Next thing you know they will be telling us that a top bioweapons scientist, son of a drugist, was responsible for the anthrax attacks. Having access to the most dangerous chemicals known, committed suicide by tylenol and codine. I guess we really are that stupid.

And if you do object to having your laptop seized, there are all those lovely Halliburton/KBR camps just waiting for detainees to 'process'...