Does Bush Proposal Threaten Access To The Pill?
WASHINGTON - A Bush administration proposal aimed at protecting health-care workers who object to abortion, and to birth-control methods they consider tantamount to abortion, has escalated a bitter debate over the balance between religious freedom and patients' rights.The Department of Health and Human Services is reviewing a draft regulation that would deny federal funding to any hospital, clinic, health plan or other entity that does not accommodate employees who want to opt out of participating in care that runs counter to their personal convictions, including providing birth-control pills, IUDs and the Plan B emergency contraceptive.
Conservative groups, abortion opponents and some members of Congress are welcoming the initiative as necessary to safeguard doctors, nurses and other health workers who, they say, are increasingly facing discrimination because of their beliefs or are being coerced into delivering services they find repugnant.
But the draft proposal has sparked intense criticism by family planning advocates, women's health activists, and members of Congress who say the regulation would create overwhelming obstacles for women seeking abortions and birth control.
There is also deep concern that the rule could have far-reaching, but less obvious, implications. Because of its wide scope and because it would -- apparently for the first time -- define abortion in a federal regulation as anything that affects a fertilized egg, the regulation could raise questions about a broad spectrum of scientific research and care, critics say.
"The breadth of this is potentially immense," said Robyn S. Shapiro, a bioethicist and lawyer at the Medical College of Wisconsin. "Is this going to result in a kind of blessed censorship of a whole host of areas of medical care and research?"
Critics charge that the proposal is the latest example of the administration politicizing science to advance ideological goals.
"They are manipulating the system by manipulating the definition of the word 'abortion,' " said Susan F. Wood, a professor at George Washington University who resigned from the Food and Drug Administration over the delays in approving the nonprescription sale of Plan B. "It's another example of this administration's disregard for science and medicine in how agencies make decisions."
The proposal is outlined in a 39-page draft regulation that has been circulated among several HHS agencies. The FDA has not objected, but several officials at the National Institutes of Health said that the agency had expressed serious concerns.
"This is causing a lot of distress," said one NIH researcher who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe internal discussions. "It's a redefinition of abortion that does not match any of the current medical definitions. It's ideologically based and not based on science and could interfere with the development of many new therapies to treat diseases."
Since a copy of the document leaked earlier this month, outside advocates and scientists have voiced growing alarm that the regulation could inhibit research in areas including stem cells, infertility and even such unrelated fields as cancer.
Dozens of members of Congress have sent letters of protest to HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt, as have scores of major medical and health groups that say their supporters have sent Congress, the White House and HHS thousands of letters protesting the proposal.
HHS officials declined to discuss the draft, saying it is in the very early stages of review. But HHS issued a statement that reads in part:
"Over the past three decades, Congress has passed several anti-discrimination laws to protect institutional and individual health care providers participating in federal programs. HHS has an obligation to enforce these laws, and is exploring a number of options."
The draft states that numerous cases have been reported of health-care workers being "required to violate their consciences by providing or assisting in the provision of controversial medicine or procedures." It adds that many states have recently passed laws requiring health plans to pay for contraception, pharmacists to fill prescriptions for birth control, and hospitals to offer Plan B to women who have been raped.
"In general, the Department is concerned that the development of an environment in the health care industry that is intolerant of certain religious beliefs, ethnic and cultural traditions, and moral convictions may discourage individuals from underrepresented and diverse backgrounds from entering health care professions," the document states.
The regulation would require any entity receiving HHS funding to certify that it does not discriminate against organizations or individuals who do not want to provide services they consider objectionable.
The most controversial section defines abortion as "any of the various procedures -- including the prescription, dispensing and administration of any drug or the performance of any procedure or any other action -- that results in the termination of life of a human being in utero between conception and natural birth, whether before or after implantation."
That definition would include most forms of hormonal birth control and the IUD, which most major medical groups believe do not constitute abortion because they primarily affect ovulation or fertilization and not an embryo once it has implanted in the womb.
The regulation would apply to anyone who participates in "any activity with a logical connection to a procedure, health service or health service program, or research activity. . . . This includes referral, training and other arrangements of the procedure, health service, or research activity."
If the administration decides to adopt the regulation, it would undergo public comment and further review before becoming final.
Critics argue that the broad definitions of abortion and the types of workers who could object would cover everyone from the top doctor at a hospital to the janitor.
Cecile Richards of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America said, "At a time when access to health care is at an all-time low, the idea that the Bush administration would be creating more barriers is frankly incredible."
The regulation could trump dozens of state laws that require health plans to cover birth control, pharmacists to fill prescriptions for contraceptives, and hospitals to offer emergency contraception to women who have been raped, critics said.
"You could imagine a group of people with less than honorable intentions seeking to get hired at a family planning clinic with the specific objective of obstructing access. Under this regulation, there is little you could do about it," said Jill Morrison of the National Women's Law Center.
Others said the rule could have additional implications, including justifying discrimination against gays, single women or others seeking health care.
"As soon as you have a definition in one part of federal law, it can become the inspiration for the reinterpretation of other statutes," said R. Alta Charo, a lawyer and bioethicist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
Supporters dismissed such predictions.
"This would essentially simply require people to comply with laws that they have been required to comply with for decades," said M. Casey Mattox of the Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. "That does not mean any organization or state can't keep doing exactly what it's been doing. It means they have to make room for people who have sincere moral or ethical concerns about doing something."
Conservative groups including the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Concerned Women for America and the Catholic Medical Association said the regulation is needed.
David Christensen of the Family Research Council said: "Health-care professionals should not be forced to engage in an action that they see is the taking of a human life. Federal funds shouldn't be used for that kind of pressure."
Christensen and others said the regulations spell out legitimate differing views about what constitutes abortion and when life begins.
Richard S. Myers, a law professor at Ave Maria School of Law in Ann Arbor, Mich., said: "Religious freedom is an important part of the history of this country. People who have a religious or moral belief should not be forced to participate in an act they find abhorrent."
© 2008 Washington Post
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97 Comments so far
Show AllLet's not forget that we have 5 Catholics on The Supreme Court with McCain promising to appoint (some more) in the mold of Roberts and Alito.
NMlib
I use to be an American and moved to Canada. I wish I had been born here. It truly is the greatest country in the world.
Religions that want to grow wont want you to use contraception. They want their flock to have as many babies as possible.
GWB will save the world from underpopulation, at a time when the world is living beyond its carrying capacity by a factor of about 10.
EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY.
It should apply for vegan waiters who dont want to serve meat dishes too.
These are also the religous nuts helping to manipulate
our elections ---
If you can't get society -- even the members of your own
church -- to do what you dictate --- then . . .
just steal elections and make sure they don't get
the pill . . .
for starters ---
Amused . . .
Yes . .. "whacking off" is on the list . . .
See: Theo-Cons by David Linker --
They aim to make it ILLEGAL to masturbate ---
Imagine the level of surveillance that would take -- !!!
Just a matter of time before they outlaw sex except for procreation only...I read that somewhere...1984?
Two thoughts:
1.Among women who claim a religious affiliation at the time of their abortion, more Fundamental Christian women get abortions than any other religious group.
2. In order to alleviate someone's conscience from being bruised by prescribing the morning after pill or other contraceptives, how about selling them over the counter in little brown bags? Then no one's delicate sensibilities will be offended, and I can avoid a trip to the doctor.
Anyone here ever read Margaret Atwood's book 'The Handmaid's tale' or see the movie based on it?
If no, then do so.
You will find the parallels disturbing.
WHY ARE THE BUSHIES TRYING TO OVERPOPULATE THE PLANET
Morning after pills, birth control, contraceptives are all vastly superior to killing a 12 week old fetus who has a functioning nervous system who can feel pain and emotion!
This belief that LIFE IS SACRED is going to KILL US ALL
I find white conservative christians to be abhorrent and would prefer if they joined their maker prior to reproducing. Does this mean I can choose not to treat them?
...If I was a health care professional
Yep, adamsrw, "...ejaculating.." just may "...become a federal crime."
It's time to pass a "regulation" that assures no viagra pill can be popped unless the man is going to "mate". Otherwise, keep it zipped under lock and key and release only to pee.
With so much attention and regulation given to eggs, it's time to seriously protect the squiggly sperm--the other half of reproduction. After all, the fate of sperm is often as cruel and objectionable as the fave visited upon eggs.
Let's see....where is all that spent semen going? murdered inside a condum? victim of cannibalism by swallowing? mutilation?--choose the MO--dumped on the ground? drowned by toilet water? strangled by a bare hand? suffocated by a sheet?....did I forget any?
As I have said before, the "right to life" ends at birth. So everyone have 16 kids. You can't afford to feed them? Okay, we will take them and put them in Foster care since you are a bad mother....
If you actually read the bible, Life does not begin until the first BREATH is taken.
Only 4 more months of this shit. President Obama will have to spend his entire first term fumigating this nest of vermin that our government has become.
"Health Care workers required to violate their consciences by providing or assisting in the provision of controversial medicine or procedures"
Can you imagine the possible outcomes?
Jehovah's Witness nurses refusing to provide blood transfusions, Muslum doctors operating on women with only their left hand, Luddite doctors refusing to use the defibrulators, give x-rays, Cat Scans or any other machine, Mennonite ambulance attendents blocking traffic with their horse drawn ambulances...
Religous Fanatics? Hardly - none of these folks believe in Christianity or they would know that moral choices are between the individual and their deity - and not within "Ceasar's" province AT ALL.
These battles are set up to divide, distract, disempower, and dismay individual choice/conscience. The more that "government can keep the populace jawing about their opinions, the more power the "policy makers" aquire! It is their favor that must be sought, their position that must be honored not any Spiritual Belief!
This administration, and any government relying on military force and economic supremity, needs more children as fodder for their eternal wars and economics based on slave wages. The children born to those who have little or no power, means there will be more willing subjects to the tyranny of the market.
The responsibility to bring a child into the world is one that only the parents should have the right to decide. No one else should even have a say. People who choose to go into reproductive medicine should have to serve their clients needs not their own.
As for religious types; The bible admonishes believers to trust in divine will.
If only zealots really believed the precepts as directives to self govern their own lives and abandoned their need to control the lives of others.
"Sounds sexist to me. Any restrictions on vasectomies? Why not?"
Give it some time Downwinder. If this continues, ejaculating without the sole intent of producing a pregnancy will become a Federal crime.
My first impression- I hate to AGREE with those nutjobs, but in theory, NO you should be protected against retaliation if you refuse to do a job duty because it interferes with your moral beliefs. (Of course, defining moral beliefs is tricky). What about 'consciencous objector" during Vietnam? (did that work?) But again it is a slippery slope… And as to my objecting to war, does it interfere directly with any of my job duties no. If I was a soldier, yes… but then I never would have become a soldier. As a healthcare worker, if the practice was in place before I got hired, then damn NO, I knew what I was getting into. If the practice came after, then that's (a start of) a case.
Unfortunetley, I would suspect that this is an attempt by facists (bush/rep) and nutjobs (religious 'right') to whip up a frenzy (of course, those religious nutjobs have had a very strong, organized, and persistant plan for decades to reshape our country- this is only a part. But it's being given strength because, well for frenzy…
And more importantly, as others have pointed out, this seems to focus only on discrimination against anti-abortion people, where is the concern for discrimination against pro-abortion or women? Where is the discussion on the Hippocratic Oath?
You and I know it is a ploy. But are there any merits? Are there any other perspectives? We can trust 'those bastards' to be selfish liars, but we must trust ourselves to see the whole story.
Didn't this Swine Just Thumb his nose at a Congressional Subpeona?
Let's pray this porcine criminal will have the coronary he looks so ready for.
Jesus, a little help here?
Yeggermeister and a picture of Rove?
I wonder what Jenna's using for birth control?
I really feel for my fellow Americans who are stuck within the walls of Jesusland. There are other great places to live where freedom, liberty, and democracy are celebrated. Escape the asylum. You might be pleasantly surprised.
What about the poultry industry?
Will unfertilized eggs be banned?
So many frogs -- so few firecrackers.
We all know bush is a to be grusumly murderd fucktard who need to be stripped of all power before he ruins more LIVING peoples lives because of his primitive religious beleifs
Kill him and allow people especially women to have the right to choose what happens to their own bodies.
skippyagogo41:
Egg and sperm did not meet...
It doesn't make sense to protect the unborn and not protect the born. But nonsense is exactly what Doctor Oppression ordered. Nonsense keep the people ungrounded, confused, divided and enslaved.
Lets see....Halt all Public funds that do not hire teachers whose "Personal Convictions' State that black Children should not be taught to learn to read and write.
Allow these schools to opt out when it comes to teaching blacks.
Halt public funds to agencies that refuse to hire people whose "Personal Conviction" is that a white person should not serve a person of color.
You can have those white only entrances again. White only water fountains and get them Blacks to the back of the bus where they belong.
Halt Public funds to any Agency receiving monies that refuse to hire men whose "Personal Conviction" is that a womans place in the home , or at best making sandwiches or coffee for the guys.
Bring back those leave it to beaver reruns!!
These kind of laws are a wet dream for the neandrathals.
The Pro Life Crowd are the people who insist that every soldier kill for the corporations.
Guess I'll get a job as a bartender. But I really don't approve of drunkeness, so I'll just sell soda pop and snacks. They'll have to hire some sinner to fill in for what my conscience won't allow me to do.
This is simple really. We need to turn this around in the faces of the Rightwingnuts. Why do they ONLY want to protect UNBORN babies? Why don't they want to protect LIVE babies? Last time I checked, every single person out there......particularly every soldier in Iraq and Afghanistan was once somebody's BABY! And, as for Israel....they seem to be having a field day killing other people's babies right now! Aiming for the heads of Palestinian children is not what I would call pro-life.
These people in power right now are using "Smoke and Mirrors" to deflect attention away from what they themselves are doing to gain control of our lives.
We need to turn the mirrors back on them! We need to do it now!!! Who really are the BABY KILLERS?!
What folks are finally figuring out is that this group, they are not conservatives ,even neocons. These terms don't describe this group. They are the taliban of the Christian religion. Wait till you see what they propose for girls to wear to school. they will need to be covered from head to toe , no skin showing, Pants will be outlawed. Many of you think , no way.
They are ready to fight and die for their beliefs! People better start seeing these fanatics for what they are.
Someone needs to inform Bush and his zealots that the United States is not a theocracy sort of like Iran, that country in the Middle East he wants to bomb. Just another good reason to impeach Bush for something totally unrelated: war crimes that have slaughtered one million innocent Iraqi's that never did anything to harm the US. Someone needs to remind Bush that we still have a Constitution that provides protection and separation of church and state. Another good reason to impeach Bush and Cheney especially before they get a chance to bomb another country and trash our Constitution some more. This legislation is patently illegal just like the wiretapping and surveillance Bush is conducting on Americans even as we speak. This is more Orwellian Big Brother garbage. Who made these jokers "God"? These guys MUST be removed from office before there is nothing left to the US Constitution. These guys have set a very dangerous precedent by being allowed to get away with murder. Where is the outrage?
What about women who need oral contraceptives for medical conditions? (example: ovarian cysts)
Do they have to sign a waiver saying it's for a medical condition and that they promise not to cheat and have sex while using the Pill, in an attempt to avoid getting pregnant?
Samson:
"Or, of course the most obvious would be workers in clinics who disagree with the conservative position that only abstinence should be mentioned as a birth control method? Do those workers have the same rights to uphold their personal beliefs?"
I agree.
Why is this issue revolving around the RIGHTS of ANTI-CHOICE health care workers? Where are the lawyers standing up for women's reproductive rights, which will be blatantly undermined if this bullshit legislation is adopted. What about the RIGHTS of the woman who has been raped to receive accurate and professional medical care? Or the woman who is seeking an abortion or reproductive health screening, which usually includes the dispensing of birth control? No health care worker, nurse, or physician should have the right to deny women access to full reproductive care. Where does this government intrusion place the RIGHTS of women to receive thorough and compassionate medical treatment? IN the trash can.
Abortion is currently legal. Birth control is still legal, how would this insane "regulation" NOT be a violation of the patient's rights?
This proposal is completely ludicrous--yet this is exactly what the religious zealots have been after, and they finally got their heart's desire. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT CONTROLLING WOMEN. Now we come to the true agenda. And BTW, men are controlled by this nonsense as well, as it will negatively affect relationships. and the quality of life for many families.
Anyone can have a personal agenda and attempt to force their beliefs onto others, but coercion of any kind has no place in ANY profession. As others have stated here, any employee could opt out of "doing their job" because it went against their precious little conscience. These nuts will take over as many health care positions as possible-all part of the grand master plan. Hell, it says so right in the proposal-- DHHS wants to make sure health care employees are not discriminated against because of their religious beliefs, etc. Yet what will the legal ramifications be if certain individuals refuse to honor their employee contracts? It will become one very large legal nightmare.
Also thanks to the anti-choice Bush administration, we have droves of pharmacists in many states refusing to fill a woman's medically and LEGALLY prescribed birth control. Now the Bushpigs want to give the religious fascists carte blanche to undermine the health and autonomy of women as well as their families. Yeah we get it-- It is WOMEN who are being discriminated against, and there IS a war against women in this country.
What will these assholes dream up next? ANY woman who cares about her reproductive health as well as privacy rights, needs to get active and start protesting this blatant attempt to redefine birth control and abortion rights. Because the next thing you know, ACCESS TO BIRTH CONTROL AND ABORTION WILL be ILLEGAL, if they have their merrily devout Christopath way.
While the anti-choicers (please use correct terminology) are out restricting women's rights to control their own contraception and lives, late-night T.V. is full of advertisements for Viagra and its clones, because heaven forbid that a man ever has to give up his God-given right to impregnate as many females as possible. There's even a commercial out there that promises to make "that certain part of the male anatomy" even larger. Do the advertisers ever ask women what they think of that??? Just ask me and I will tell you - the last thing we need in the White House is another gigantic "certain part of the male anatomy!"
Obama - pro-choice
McCain - anti-choice
If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. It's that simple. It's always the religious zealots that try to foist their beliefs on everyone else. Sad.
just imagine if these sort of measures were applied/proposed in respect to the military.
so it's okay to break the law if your right-wing conscience dictates not to? because we live in an individualistic society where one person is supposedly more important than everyone else? but god forbid when an army soldier decides to quit the military because they don't agree with current operations, they get dishonorable discharge and therefore less chance of getting a job when they get back.
if you don't want to have anything to do with birth control, then don't work in health care. birth control is an inseparable part of health care. this planet and all its organisms and dynamics simply cannot afford to even support the people already on the planet. I'd say that's a more ethical method of curbing population, than say, the slaughter that goes with neoliberalism and extreme right-wing views.
Brilliant rjmart01
If only the Bush administration could be that stupid and outlaw cat ownership, then we just have to arm every ticked off cat lover and send them to Washington.
Could you Imagine, 80 million ticked off cat lovers and most of them women, with guns marching on Washington. Shoot , I bet 20 million dog lovers would join for pet support.
Thats the beautiful thing about our constitution that the religious right wing lunitc fringe will never understand.
Religous conviction and freedom of religon, is just one of the many luxuries that Americans have becuse of the constitution. The bible is not a legal set of laws that govern this nation. Atheism, and the right to with our bodys what we want is also a product of the constitution.
Trust me , if you start to take our rights, like the right to privacy, Warrantless spying, right to die, right to an abortion, pandoras box will open and they will crush all freedoms, your religions will go bye bye.
But please don't take my word for it, we all know that Washington is run by Bible thumpers, your religions are safe.
Thats why I say God , save our constitution, for it will save all of us, and our beliefs, agree or disagree, we all need our constitution to keep America from becoming a communist country.
"Sounds sexist to me. Any restrictions on vasectomies? Why not?"
Monthy Python
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.
MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.
PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!
NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.
EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!
Years ago I was a volunteer with PPRM (Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mtns) in Lakewood CO. I worked with cancer patients to schedule follow up appts when PAP tests showed problems. I asked one day - why doesn't someone from PPRM go undercover and attend the Operation Rescue meetings in Denver? I was asked to be the one. The first meeting I went to - Baptist Church in Wheatridge CO - only men spoke except for a young girl who came to the podium with her baby so say how glad she was that she didn't abort. (She made her choice - good for her!) I tried to talk with the women in the audience. None of them would speak to me - they stared straight ahead, looking terrified. One woman's husband glared daggers in my direction for speaking to his wife (all I did was introduce myself). I went to later meetings - all very much the same - I sat and listened to horror stories - misguided stories about women 9-1/2 months pregnant who decide to abort (oh really now!).
My grandmother died in 1949- ovarian cancer - at her funeral her women friends told my mother that they believed ovarian cancer came from having had abortions and that to their knowledge - my maternal grandmother was the only one amongst them (Hungarian, Catholic) who had never had one.
1949.
We will never go back. Women MUST support women in their reproductive and other health care and needs. No matter what the law is - we must support one another.
I guess America is going back to the Dark Ages. When is the law coming out where women have to cover their heads/bodies/hands, speak to no man who is not related, etc.? This is so revolting to have to watch our neighbours suffer at the hands of religious fundamentalists who have virtually the same mind-set as the fundamentalist sects in the Middle East and elsewhere. Keep women "in their place," not seen, not heard, oh, and pregnant until their bodies give out.
Religion is supposed to be an expression of joyful spirituality; not physicality and certainly not militarism, though many interpret it that way...repression through whatever means.
I am a woman and my body is my own, no one else's, period. All women should have control over their bodies: it not for some doctor, nurse, pharmacist, cleric or janitor to decide.
NO NO NO!!
Article: "a draft regulation...would deny federal funding to any hospital, clinic, health plan or other entity that does not accommodate employees who want to opt out of participating in care that runs counter to their PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, including providing birth-control pills, IUDs and the Plan B emergency contraceptive."
My PERSONAL CONVICTION is that killing women and children in Iraq as 'payback' for 9-11 is tantamount to murder for oil. Think I can get Federal funding revoked for any business or agency that requires me to pay taxes and hence support this murder? And, if not, WHY NOT!!!
Hey guess what dogs? I am getting ready to go with my girlfriend to meet.................................yea, you guessed it buddy- Vincent Bugliosi! THE MAN himself is signing books in Pasadena CA. Guess what hosers? Yea buddy I will have my very own copy of Vincent Bugliosi's "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder ISBN 978-159315-481-3(2008)" signed by none other than Vincent Bugliosi!
I know you dogs are jealous. Aren't you? Kiss my butt!
The Bush bastards are in final immolation mode. Their grand Reich is in ruins all around them, the air is abuzz with stories of their future prosecution for crimes against humanity. They are desperate, hunted, evil men who in their last few months just want to lash out in any way, however irrational, as long as it causes harm to someone. In this case, women.
Republican platform: restricting women's reproductive freedom
Viagra is covered by medical insurance but birth control is not. Repigs are sexist to the core. Which reminds me, what was that McCain called his wife? Oh yes, C**t. And he called Asians "gooks." Racist and sexist.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/17/jack-cafferty-viagra-is-for-a-medical-condition-birth-control...
The Abortion issue is an issue ONLY THOSE WITH A WOMB are truly qualified to address much less answer.
The "Religious ones" are the only vocal group concerning this matter and my observation so far has been----it is just a bunch of men; all of them with small minds that they have clouded even more with these ridiculous childish thoughts of "Gods" "gender" which they are SURE is male.
Therefore logic would have one to notice very readily that ANY man could NOT possibly have an opinion that would be based in reality when the question comes up "oh what are those women supposed to do with those "wombs"-
If anyone needs to make a "national issue of it" then it should by rights be a "WOMENS NATIONAL ISSUE"---since they HAVE wombs, they are QULIFIED BY THAT ALONE to speak with authority and knowledge and experience about "WOMBS".-------
My only advice to the WOMEN of the NATION is that THEY are the QUALIFIED INDIVIDUALS AND GROUP TO EVEN DISCUSS THE ISSUE; and should do with the issue whatever they wish---and tell the MEN who do not HAVE WOMBS----to "stick it where the sun don't shine".
In all seriousness, this is an issue that only women are qualified to even discuss. If there is no question among them, then the men of this nation should accept that and go on with their own lives.
In my Tribal tradition we recognize that the women are the only future of our people and without them we would be extinct. None of the men I know would even think of questioning who is the source of our power. These are wise men who do not delve in areas they are not qualified in. But that is why we will survive those who do not recognize the true source of their people's power. Your women.
To those men out there.
Leave them alone about the abortion issue; if there is a question about it they will answer it.
Thanks for your time.
To listen to these 'family values' characters one would think there are hoards of abortionists running around the country forcing women to have abortions. If you don't want an abortion.....don't have one!
Clark Kent,
Or as a Jehovah's Witness, you can't give a blood transfusion.
This is great!
My religion says "thou shall not kill"
Republicans support this war where a million plus have been killed.
Now as a health care worker, by federal law, I cannot be fired for refusing to treat Republicans.
Come to think of it, Democrats are just as much to blame.
So I cannot be fired for refusing to treat Democrats either.
I will just sit back and collect my paycheck and only treat a Green or a Quaker once every few weeks. Game of cards anyone?
Sweet.
Thank you Dubya.
skippyagog,
Well, it isn't me! I'm near the other border.
Maybe you Canadians should start squawking about the "illegal immigrants"!
"I wonder who in George's cabinet thinks up these reasons for more people to see him as a vile pig."
The guy working on the next election who's trying to find whatever narrow difference there are between Democrats and Republicans. You gotta feel sorry for that guy, since there are so few differences on the big policies like trade and taxes and war. So this is what they have to work with.
>>hazmat - can i stop paying my taxes because killing people who live on top of some oil runs counter to my personal convictions?<<
Very very well put. You take a job, then you need to be able to do the job. Full stop. If you don't want to hand out contraception, then go to work in a Catholic hospital.
Or, of course the most obvious would be workers in clinics who disagree with the conservative position that only abstinence should be mentioned as a birth control method? Do those workers have the same rights to uphold their personal beliefs?
I wonder who in George's cabinet thinks up these reasons for more people to see him as a vile pig.
Or, how about health care workers who's personal beliefs conflict with the law on a patient's right to die?
How about health care workers who's personal beliefs conflict with DEA limits on the amounts of pain meds than can be given? Shouldn't they have the same rights?
So, I'd like to be a Christian Scientist and have a full-time job in a hospital :-) Under the Bush administration rule, does that mean I'd take home a paycheck even if I refused to administer most conventional medical treatments and instead opted to pray for the patients? (I may be mischaracterizing CS, but there are religions that oppose most conventional treatments).
Can we expand this idea further? For instance, if workers in such a facility have personal beliefs that they would rather treat patients with medical pot instead of pharmaceuticals, surely they should have the same rights?
One of America's founding fathers spoke to what is at the center of this issue --
"Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to our god alone. I enquire after no man's and trouble none with mine; nor is it given to us in this life
to know whether yours or mine, our friend's or our foe's, are exactly the right." -- Thomas Jefferson
NMlib July 31st, 2008 5:45 pm
Hollow point,
Oh, you smug Canadians!
My friends and I joke that the Canadians should be guarding their borders from all of the Americans trying to sneak in and get healthcare.
We do, actually there's lots of lawsuits and collection agencies trying to get to the yanks who've come up here expecting not to pay for anything...
Lisa at 4:38, Great post. Rove and the boys could care less about life (human or otherwise) before or after birth. Their game is to splinter the poor and various shades of middle class, whose interests would be totally denied in a McCain (3rd Bush administration), with as many wedge issues they can get the right-wing talk show hacks to bleat about before election day.
Siouxrose, very excellent post!
Hollow point,
Oh, you smug Canadians! ;-)
Many of us Americans have woken up as we "spend more and get less." But, short of making a run for the border (and unfortunately, I'm closer to Mexico than Canada), there's only so much we can do.
My friends and I joke that the Canadians should be guarding their borders from all of the Americans trying to sneak in and get healthcare.
Here we go, the return of Comstock Law is next.
Bush & Co. redefined the word TORTURE, so I guess they now want to redefine ABORTION as well.
PS: Excellent points: WILMOOR, CEDAR & JOZEF
Autonomy comes from control over one's body and its functions. This legislation is a means to push women back into caves, and/or remain barefoot and pregnant. It's disgusting!
The thing is, apart from the false rites of authoritarians who think it's THEIR business and THEIR right to tell others how to live (and stand together as all clones so easily do to foment legislation that furthers their objectives), is the sinister disguise that this whole "right to life" thing is REALLY about. It's a mask over a right to KILL society. Is there any single example anyone can think of that shows the slightest interest on the part of Bush and all the amoral sell-outs he's placed to head the various departments that are supposed to PROTECT public well being and safety? The EPA is a sham, the FDA is another one, instead of true law enforcement we have the mangled homeland security state aiming at its own, and the list goes on ad nauseum.
Just as soldiers are taught to fold their sheets a certain way and look proud in their impeccably neat and clean uniforms and shined boots to HIDE the filth of human splattered remains these costumes ultimately serve, so too does the right to life movement place over a national policy of war at any and all provocations a mask that would appear to give a damn about living beings.
FARCE THEATER! Sometimes I wish there was no reincarnation as it's so clear the Inquisitors are back... can't you just see Rove wearing the robes, delighted to send beautiful young women (and their male suitors perhaps) to the latest torture chamber by clammoring that it's God's will, that they have sinned. Sometimes being aware on this backwards planet is too much to bear...
As I learned in finance, it's all about propping up business "wholesale" way. Produce more babies out of control just like in China, India, and the Middle East and what big government gets is more money because more programmed-to-be-numb-in-thinking fundies will blindly fight these wars for resource exploitation and profiteering. It happened to hemp and it will happen to healthcare not just against women but all of us in the end unless you fight back.
Cleaning out a cat box has the potential to affect a human embryo. Therefore, unless cats can be trained not to sh*t in litter boxes, the government should ban cats. Admittedly, the last time a virtual theocracy banned cats, the result was the Black Death, but you can't be put off by the possibility of a little plague. After all, we're talking about the sanctity of human life, here!
I hope so. My wife just had a cancer operation up here in Canada. The total cost out of pocket was 5$ thats right 5 bucks and that so she could have a phone in her room. She still has 100% coverage as it does not affect the coverage at all. It is a great feeling to know if you get real sick it is covered and you won't have to take out a loan or sell your house. America has to wake up as they spend more and get less
Downwinder July 31st, 2008 4:50 pm
Sounds sexist to me. Any restrictions on vasectomies? Why not?
Very good point, but don't forget if those who object to the pill on the grounds that it prevents preg's will also object to vasectomies on the same grounds. Thing is a vasectomy can be done in any doctor's office in less than an hour. The pill needs to be prescribed. I wonder if this decision will also prevent women from getting their own tubes tied/cut?
Another even worse ploy Amendment 48 here in Colorado will be on the ballot. These people will never stop. Info on this below.
http://oakcreekforum.blogspot.com/2008/07/amendment-48-crazy-bastards.html
So many parents should have had an abortion
the whole bush family
Cheney
Rove
Rice
Rummy
the rest of the inner circle we never see
McCain
anymore?
Sounds sexist to me. Any restrictions on vasectomies? Why not?
Is this being dragged out now to influence the Elections?
Help remind the Right what makes them Right by Polarizing people and allowing the Fundamenetalist Mega-Preachers to Whip up Hate and voting loyalties.
The timing of this Creeping Fascism is Rovian.
McCain and even the AdSinistration have co-opted some of OboBomba's rhetoric recently.
Here is a wedge issue that will nicely portray the Baby-Killing Democrats by their Defenders, the Sainted and Holy Christian Right and their Republican Loyalists.
Time to abort Bush's presidency and look into the possibility of performing a post-natal abortion on him. I'll bet old Mama Barbara would go along with it. What a horrendous waste of flesh and blood her asshole son is.
"These religious idiots need to all get fired so they can select a field that they CAN actually do their jobs."
The only field of endeavor these people are good for is to become Crusaders. Bring back all the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and send these fevered, tight-ass jokers instead. None will survive and perhaps then the so-called religious right will disappear from American politics and never stain our rapidly declining country again.
P.S. This also fits in perfectly with George Wanker Bush's lack of interest in sex. Drinking and murder are apparently his standard cheap thrills that take the place of (expletive deleted).
"define abortion in a federal regulation as anything that affects a fertilized egg"
Are the EPA and FDA in on this? Every household chemical and food additive will affect a fertalized egg. Since there is no Safeway can the clerk at the checkout stand refuse to sell anything to women because it might affect a fertilized egg? Are Monsanto, Conagra and Clorox abortionists?
What will Bush's sadistic misogynists do with post-menopausal women? Will our Department of Justice jail them or grind them up like old milk cows?
America's government has gone criminally insane!
Redefining words is nothing new in the brave new world of the Orwellian culture fostered by Bush and the rest of the imbeciles on the paranoid right. It's astonishing that after eight years of this insanity, the Democrats can't get off their asses and put an end to this craziness. Why can't meaningful opposition form to run these bastards out of office?
do you really believe that criticalthinktank?
Bush doesn't believe in abortion and contraception and wants to run an authoritarian government that has strict control of people and their bodies.
Bush wants to ban Abortion and contraception so our country can have more babies born which means more people to join the military war machine, and more people to get TAX money from. Why else would he support this?
MONEY, MONEY, MONEY and future MONEY..this is what drives this man and the more people the more money he can milk for our government!
I understand, but disagree with the pro-life position. But, Jesus, you are crazy if you think the pill is morally repugnant!
Maybe we should be more accomodating to people who refuse to work because they find capitalism morally repugnant. Anyone?
IMPEACH DUBYA AND DICKIE NOW!
and about "The November election can't come fast enough for me!"
unless "postponed" by bush invoking the NSPD 51, we're only 96 days away, baby!
96!!!
isn't that pretty much their entire game-plan?
the neocons are greedy and murderous and see a way to make a buck by sending two oil men to the presidecy and vice-presidency.
the pro-lifers will kill 1.2 million iraqis with a smile on their faces.
...and will change a law allowing them to legally bend the country to their ideas of right and wrong.
'hey, why stand outside picketing with a picture of a dead baby?'
'...when i can legally get a job there, and tell that 14 year-old rape victim how she's going to burn in hell for her sins' or however else that might turn out.
no thanks. i'll take one of the arrogant intellectuals, please.
thanks.
"If you have religious convictions that prevent you from performing certain medical procedures, DON'T SELECT THAT FIELD! Gee." Ok. So what about the tens of millions of us whose religious convictions are violated over our tax dollars going to Iraq to kill people? Or those federal workers whose conscience is violated by them carrying out orders in the the continuance of the illegal and immoral war in Iraq?
Good job The Lorax. The fact that they couldn't think of this on their own says something about their collective brain.
Any law, regulation, etc. dreamed up by the Bush administration is bound to be bad, bad, bad.
Wake up, America! Haven't you learned anything over the past eight years?