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TechnoratiBut that doesn't mean the next president can't hold this administration accountable.
Even war criminals have fan clubs. On Tuesday, 15,000 people in Belgrade, Serbia, protested the transfer of indicted war criminal Radovan Karadzic to the International Criminal Tribunal at The Hague. Karadzic is implicated in torture, rape, murder and genocide, but to some self-styled Serbian patriots, these are mere details. "Long Live Radovan!" chanted the protesters.
For the many Americans who read of Karadzic's arrest but wondered, "Yes, great -- and when will George W. Bush and Dick Cheney face trial for war crimes?" this is something to keep in mind. Karadzic was the leader of a small, unrecognized rogue republic and presided over a genocide -- but he evaded justice for more than a decade and still keeps a loyal fan base.
Bush and Cheney are the leaders of the most powerful state in the world, and their misdeeds, though egregious, aren't on the same level as Karadzic's. (Unless -- ahem -- you count the Iraq war, on the "it was all a tissue of lies" theory. But for the sake of the argument, let's give them the benefit of the doubt.) So no one should be surprised that there's still a Bush fan club (albeit a small one) or that the prospects of criminal proceedings against the president and his henchmen are virtually nonexistent.
It's not that Bush, Cheney and Co. don't deserve to end up in the dock. Retired Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who was commissioned by the Pentagon in 2004 to investigate the abuses at Abu Ghraib, recently concluded that "the commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture. ... A government policy was promulgated to the field whereby the Geneva Conventions and the Uniform Code of Military Justice were disregarded. ... There is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes."
The human cost of those crimes? It's hard to say for sure, given the administration's penchant for secrecy (understandable, because the president was warned as early as January 2002 of "the threat of domestic criminal prosecution under the War Crimes Act" by his then-chief counsel, Alberto Gonzales). But when the nongovernmental Detainee Abuse and Accountability Project examined thousands of pages of internal government records, it documented more than 330 cases "in which U.S. military and civilian personnel are credibly alleged to have abused or killed detainees" at "U.S. facilities throughout Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay."
A McClatchy Newspaper Group report released a few weeks ago came to a similar conclusion, finding that brutal mistreatment of prisoners was routine in Afghanistan and at Guantanamo, even though in many cases the abused detainees had no ties to Al Qaeda.
Did all this violate U.S. and international law? You betcha. The U.S. is party to the U.N. Convention Against Torture, and torture is also a federal crime. At the time most of the abuses were committed, the War Crimes Act also criminalized violations of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which prohibits "cruel treatment and torture [and] outrages upon personal dignity." And under the doctrine of "command responsibility," senior civilian and military leaders could all face criminal liability for authorizing or tolerating the abuses.
But don't hold your breath. As far back as 2001, administration lawyers were crafting legal opinions designed to shelter their bosses from any future criminal liability, and much evidence has since been hidden and destroyed. Then in 2006, the GOP-dominated Congress amended the War Crimes Act -- with retroactive effect -- to make future prosecutions almost impossible.
In any case, neither Democrats nor Republicans have the stomach for criminal proceedings against high-ranking current or former officials who still retain substantial public support. Meanwhile, no international tribunal is ever likely to have jurisdiction over the U.S. participants involved in the abuses.
But that doesn't mean we should give up on accountability. John McCain and Barack Obama should be urged to establish a high-level, nonpartisan "truth commission" with robust subpoena powers early in 2009. That commission should investigate, hold hearings and issue a public report on responsibility for torture, war crimes and other abuses committed during the Bush administration.
Such a panel wouldn't satisfy those who'd like to see Bush and Cheney in prison garb, but it would be a major step toward undoing the damage the administration did to our reputation as a nation committed to human rights. And as more incriminating details come out -- and they will -- some Bush-Cheney fan club members might even turn in their membership cards.
--Rosa Brooks
Copyright 2008 Los Angeles Times
39 Comments so far
Show AllDo not shoot the president ....first. At least not yet.
McCain isn't a real candidate, he's a ghost who is knowingly taking one for the party like a good soldier. There is no plan for him to win, just to put up a vaguely decent, if somewhat inept, showing.
In return for being given the Presidency, the Dems have no doubt promised not to prosecute the worst war criminals since Idi Amin or Saddam himself. There will be a lot of talk about 'healing' and other bullshit as the rationale for this subversion of justice, but in the end the murder of a million civillians and thousands of young Americans will go unpunished because America just don't wanna know.
The most horrifying aspect of this whole disaster - by far the most horrifying aspect - is the incredible ease with which it has been achieved.
There was no need of immense cover-up work, this is not some 'Moon-landings-filmed-in-a-stdio-in-Arizona' conspiracy theory. It's all out there! They lied, they decieved, they killed, they tortured. It's a matter of public record. Are they denying it all? No, they're not, Why not? This is the most frightening thing of all...
No one is asking the freaking questions!!!
People at the highest level have committed major Federal offences and are walking the streets! Actually, they're being chauffer driven! Scooter and Rove will stay rich, Bush and Cheney will stay Filthy rich and very powerful. Why? Because a stupid nation cares more about who got voted off 'Idol'
The last time a nation was this completely tamed, 6 million jews died. What will the cost be this time? More than likely we won't know until it's all over, just like the German people in '45.
But Obama will help won't he?!
Just keep watching the reality shows and drinking the Kool-Aid. Don't be worrying yourself about any of that 'eternal vigilance' nonsense!
nomorebombs August 1st, 2008 9:46 am:
"gutless bastards.. why are there not millions on the lawn exterminating these scum of the earth?
why is this not happening?"
That would require civic participation by the hoi polloi, something the vast majority are not interested in. You certainly won't see it out of the McMansion-ites, who fancy themselves as "upper-class" and often think and vote right-wing.
Now, now, Samson, I did not say to abandon Obama and vote green. You did, but I didn't.
Hey Daniel David says to abandon Obama and vote Green!!!!!!!!!
"Daniel David July 31st, 2008 1:41 pm
It is not nearly as important that Bush and Bushites be "held accountable" as it is that we not somehow bumble around and re-elect their philosophies—thereby ratifying all of them.
"
After all, a vote for Obama is indeed a vote to 're-elect their philosophies thereby ratifying all of them.'
If you doubt the above, note
a) this was also the stance of the Clinton administration towards the Reagan\Bush criminals.
b) this is the stance of the current Dem majority in Congress that refuses to even discuss impeachment.
The ACTIONS of the Dems say they protect Republican criminals. They don't prosecute them.
To anyone fantasizing that Obama might prosecute Republicans, don't.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/34929
"Here are the words of Barack Obama's advisor, Cass Sunstein, at the netroots convention and an outstanding reply from Mikal Hutto
an adviser to Barack Obama from the University of Chicago Law School, cautioned against prosecuting criminal conduct from the current Administration. Prosecuting government officials risks a "cycle" of criminalizing public service, he argued, and Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton--or even the "slight appearance" of it. "
Follow the link to read the rest of the article which of course points out what utter nonsense this is.
If you want to prosecute the Bush criminal, vote Green.
If you want to see the Bush criminals unprosecuted, vote Democrat.
"On Tuesday, 15,000 people in Belgrade, Serbia, protested the transfer of indicted war criminal Radovan Karadzic to the International Criminal Tribunal at The Hague"
If there ever was a legitimate target for a cluster-bomb...they were it
gutless bastards.. why are there not millions on the lawn exterminating these scum of the earth?
why is this not happening?
diebold
we are fucked again
Ephraim, I indeed forgot Jim Baker.
Purely an oversight. I'm sure that if I refreshed my recollections with the help of Google, I'd find others, or potential "up-and-comers" like, say, Bob Kerrey.
The common denominator, besides the superficially impressive curriculum vitae, is a certain willingness to play ball.
I may have written previously about a time I blathered on and on to a fellow employee about a "rising star" who'd just been promoted to an "important" managerial position. The person I was blathering to was a no-nonsense retired Air Force veteran who enjoyed my frequent observation that she is as "tough as a rawhide chew".
She listened to me go up one side and down the other, and when I stopped to take a breath in my evaluation of the rising star, she said, "In other words: a bullshitter".
I still laugh when I think of it, because that was exactly what my windy analysis boiled down to.
Notice that Jimmy Carter is never invited to join this Senior Tour, and almost certainly is not interested in doing so. Why? To paraphrase my former co-worker: because he's NOT a bullshitter like the others.
apologist articles can't exonerate high crime.
ezeflyer has it spot on.
"Vincent Bugliosi stated in his book "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder", that any DA can at any time indict GWB for murder."
notice the terms "any DA... at any time" can indite.
LA Times is conservative now anyway... This line in the article SHOULD read:
"So no one should be surprised that there's still a Bush fan club (albeit it's a small one) here at the Los Angeles Times Corporate offices."
Little Brother has it spot on. There isn't going to be any justice knocking on these bastards' doors, since the criminals and the lawmakers are the same people. The only personage Little Bro left out of the projected and never to be realized Truth Commission is Jim Baker, the consiglieri of the Bush family. If "Truth" is ever officially established in this old land of ours, Jim Baker will be he who announces it from the tall towers of monumental corruption. And George W will skate off scot free to Paraguay or whatever rancho overseen by scions of old Nazi architects now in preparation. Cheney will be whisked away to a permanently undisclosed location, where he'll be free to plan the next nuclear strike on whomever he decrees is a terrorist. Rove will be at his side, with the big red button.
Let's continue not looking into Ruppert's research on 911. Nothing there; he's a kook, etc etc.
LITTLE BROTHER: If I get stuck in a traffic jam my mind dances backwards into the kind of video replay that allows me NOT to lose my cool. Humor helps. I still love the analogy to the guy who asked three times about someone's shirt left in the bathroom, as segue to a similar fixation as evidenced here in this forum. Thanks for that laugh. It still echoes.
LITTLE BROTHER: Got "the funnies" tonight, huh? Tomorrow's eclipse is affecting you.
CHRIS HORTON: Very intelligent post.
LOBO 72: I'd love to see all that, too; but the problem is OBAMA voted for some of those things which would make him an accomplice to the same crimes he'd be posed to prosecute (the legal aspect of his background). You think he'd opt for that route? Integrity is a tough asset to hold onto in American politics, given who the players are, and how easy it is to cross over to the dark side thinking one's ends justify their means in a clime that only Machiavelli could entirely appreciate.
There are 28% of people in this country who would love Bush even if he were caught sodomizing a goat.
_________________________________________
Curiously, Bush would also be loved by 28% of the goats.
"lwhunt330 July 31st, 2008 1:08 pm
There are 28% of people in this country who would love Bush even if he were caught sodomizing a goat. Delusion is one of the strongest emotions."
and
"andersdl July 31st, 2008 1:33 pm
lwhunt is 100% correct and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that 20, 30, 40 years from now AT LEAST 28% of the US electorate will still love Bush and Cheney."
If we could only find a way to prosecute that 28% for aiding and abetting the Bu$hco crimes...
I'd love to see Obama's first action as president to be freezing the assets of all in the Bush regime and confiscating their passports using the same Patriot Act crap that Bush has used to detain, arrest, intimidate and destroy so many people over the past seven years. Then indictments for war crimes; torture; illegal wiretapping; rendition; deception leading to war; civil rights violations; misappropriation of public funds; neglect after natural disasters; illegal politicization of federal departments; and outright murder of countless Iraqis should get the job done. Then there are the RICO statutes that could get these government gangsters in day-glow orange. If all that fails, bring in the BIG GUN: I bet any and all of these neo-con bastards wouldn't hold up to a thorough IRS audit. Wouldn't that be ironic--and sweet: Bush imprisoned for the same reason as Al Capone! And no Club Fed either. Put him and all his cohorts in the general pop. Is there a federal pen in Louisiana?
"Bush and Cheney are the leaders of the most powerful state in the world, and their misdeeds, though egregious, aren't on the same level as Karadzic's. (Unless — ahem — you count the Iraq war, on the "it was all a tissue of lies" theory. But for the sake of the argument, let's give them the benefit of the doubt.)"
This article belongs on the FOX news site. It's an insult. It's offensive.
"Bush and Cheney are the leaders of the most powerful state in the world, and their misdeeds, though egregious, aren't on the same level as Karadzic's."
No, not the same level... a much HIGHER level of crimes than Karadzic.
"Bush and Cheney are the leaders of the most powerful state in the world, and their misdeeds, though egregious, aren't on the same level as Karadzic's."
Aren't on the same level? Well I agree they are not on the same level -- they raise the word egregious to a new level. Without excusing him in any way at all, I do not believe Karadzic actually deliberately started the war in the Balkans and, war criminal though he may be, the extent of his massacre was 8,000 Muslims. Bu$hco are responsible for at least a million.
I agree with most of the posters on this thread. There's no way that bush will be held to account, if foreigners tried the us would invade us to free their former pres and his cronies. If the dem's tried they'd have to admit their own colaboration with the repukes. The repukes will build alters to worship the 'decider', and laud bush II as the reincarnated ron reagan.
It may indeed happen that bush might face some punishment in the future, but it will have little or nothing to do with his conduct over the last 7 years. I'd predict that he'll be busted for driving drunk, failing that he'll paralyse himself by crashing into a tree while driving drunk. Not that I'd wish that fate on most people, but bush being trapped in his own body for the next thirty years not being able to move and having a machine breath for him does have a certain appeal.
No way Bush will ever spend a day in jail or see the inside of a courtroom.
At the end of his term, he'll issue blank pardons for the rest of the criminals who helped him break numerous laws and wage an illegal and immoral war against Iraq.
To cap this off, the same vote stealing apparatus that stole the 2000 and 2004 elections for the Bush/Cheney Junta will be used to steal the 2008 election for "Duke Nuke'Em" McCain, thereby completing the coverup.
Bush and Cheney will spend their golden years making tons of money by giving speeches to defense contractors and the friends of Israel who helped lie this nation into the Iraq War.
"Goodbye to the USA and hello to the American Gulag."
As Brooks observes, it is far too soon to count Bush and the neocons down and out; and as Jim Lobe documents in his blog on ips.org (MUST READING), they certainly aren't counting themselves out! There are indeed many hopeful signs that the tide has turned our way, and I know many people who are being lulled by indications that the threat of war on Iran has peaked and that the "realists" have become ascendant. But in politics, as in war or chess, the game is never just about what we do, and all our plans and hopes can be thrown off in a moment if we fail to see the game from the opponent's perspective.
Even if you cut off the head of a rattlesnake, it can still strike and kill, and the neo-cons have been dealt no such mortal blow. They still have the presidency, no doubt the CIA, an important segment of the corporate elite (as represented by the Wall Street Journal), the core of the Republican Party and a dangerous armed right-wing movement behind them; and they are still protected by the corporate media (witness its total failure to report on HCR 362) and AIPAC. As Lobe's article makes plain, they don't give a fig for the people of the US, Iraq or the world, except as a problem to be handled. That they have good reason to be deeply frightened by recent political and economic developments makes them more dangerous, not less.
Thus it is essential that we pay close attention, as Jim Lobe has done, to what they are saying and doing. We need to try to get into their minds, to see how they see the world and their position, and to anticipate their next moves.
Let's try standing in - say - Dick Cheney or George Bush Sr.'s shoes, and consider the obstacles to realizing their vision, which I take to be an American-dominated Middle East and monopoly control of the remaining oil reserves.
You would see an American economy that is starting to founder and is losing its grip. An American populace which has turned against the war and is threatening to elect a candidate upon whose support you can't rely. The sham democratic process in Iraq blowing up in your face, with a treacherous Maliki responding to pressure from the people. Not enough troop strength to take and occupy Iran, never mind holding onto Iraq and Afghanistan. The oil-producing countries of Latin America and Central Asia slipping out of your grasp, and your hold on the G-8 slipping. Despite your best efforts, you see information flowing like blood from an open wound out over the Internet. You would feel an urgent need for a major turnaround in public support for the wars, a win for McCain and support for building a much larger army, fast. And you would see the need for the the power to deal with the collapsing dollar by dictating the terms of a new international agreement.
So if you were in their shoes, what would you do? Give up and bide your time, or act? And what options would you see for acting?
What would the son and grandson of Prescott Bush do?
We must join with Lobe in looking closely and critically at the evidence, including what the puppet-masters and their spokespeople are saying. And then we must think carefully about how we - the people and their leaders - must respond. Carefully but urgently. Time is getting short.
Unless, ahem... you count generations of war and greed supervised by the Bush Family Evil Empire which have brought America to it's knees and killed literally millions of human beings. Hang them and distribute their wealth to the poor! Modern humans seem to be the very definition of blind insanity.
" (Unless — ahem — you count the Iraq war, on the "it was all a tissue of lies" theory. But for the sake of the argument, let's give them the benefit of the doubt.) "
For the sake or argument or for the love of Pete, why should we give them the benefit of the doubt? Is there any doubt, AT ALL, that Bush & Co. lied us into the Iraq war? Where has the author been for the last 5 years?
"high-level, nonpartisan 'truth commission' with robust subpoena powers early in 2009."
______________________________________
Remind me to add "Rosa Brooks" to the mailing list for my prospectus on the Perpetual Motion Machine for which I am currently soliciting funds.
Is there a MORE worn-out and lame dodge to whitewash scandal, high crimes, and malfeasance than the "high-level, nonpartisan truth commission"?
Amerika has the equivalent of a Senior Tour for such burlesques; an elite bipartisan boatload of Esteemed Wise Persons deemed by their almost-peers (for they are themselves peerless) and the corporate media shills to have Impeccable Credentials and Sterling Reputations. They are venerated for being High-Minded and Highly-Principled; they are reputedly persons of Keen Insight and Unimpeachable Integrity.
Who would it be this time around? George Mitchell? John Danforth? Henry Kissinger? Madeleine Albright? Lee Hamilton? Arlen Specter? Sandra Day O'Connor, perhaps, or Robert Bork?
No doubt such charlatans will put on a good show, with full Earnest Media Coverage. The "half-full" CD contributors like Ms. Brooks and Dave Lindorff will faithfully follow the bouncing ball and urge relentless public pressure to ensure that these co-opted and compromised scam artists pursue the issues rigorously, and present a comprehensive and unsparing final report.
And then more relentless public pressure will be called for to persuade President Obama to support whatever further investigations, indictments, and prosecutions are necessary to actually bring any and all miscreants to justice.
Arrant nonsense!
Is Mr. Bugliosi talking about American DA's?
If that is really a possibility --- where is the DA with the balls it would take to be first?
Could we be talking about an indictment with all the force and majesty of a congressional subpoena requiring Rovita to appear for tongue-lashings?
it is imperative that these criminals be held accountable. Don't be so sure that it won't happen this time. The world/history is full of examples of things that conventional wisdom says won't happen but do.
the big equalizer might be when the majority find out that global climate change is really going to change their lives (not for the better) and the masses will need to blame someone. who better than those that actively hid the truth so they could make more profit.
the rage is growing and it will need to find those who are to blame,
Vincent Bugliosi stated in his book "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder", that any DA can at any time indict GWB for murder.
It is not nearly as important that Bush and Bushites be "held accountable" as it is that we not somehow bumble around and re-elect their philosophies---thereby ratifying all of them.
Once McCain is sworn in, we will find the republican congress rushing to build statues and name buildings for the Great Decider and his so-often-persecuted assistants. The Rove Court Building will probably be first, followed quickly by the Cheney Hunting Preserve. You'll see. All will be exonerated.
"In any case, neither Democrats nor Republicans have the stomach for criminal proceedings against high-ranking current or former officials who still retain substantial public support."
28% is substantial?
lwhunt is 100% correct and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that 20, 30, 40 years from now AT LEAST 28% of the US electorate will still love Bush and Cheney.
Just as the media has kept the Ronny Raygun legend alive and kept the blame on Carter for the problems Nixon and Ford caused, the Bush/Cheney legend will fare at least as well as Ronny's.
Correction: At the rate Bush/Cheney are devalueing the US dollar, lets make that bet donuts to dollars.
"Did all this violate U.S. and international law? You betcha…But don't hold your breath"
Here is another author taking the pressure off Obama and McCain to do anything.
There are 28% of people in this country who would love Bush even if he were caught sodomizing a goat. Delusion is one of the strongest emotions.
The House and Senate should be sent to the Hague for Nonfeasance. Bush's treason is another matter.
you may be able to urge obama to establish the truth-commission.
mccain, on the other hand, is too busy cashing checks from oil companies and getting every fact wrong on every issue facing the nation.
this poster is doubtful that he'll even make it through the general election.
imagine this when you go to vote:
check one:
barack obama
bob barr
ralph nader (again)
other