Every war has a story line. World War I was "the war to end all wars." World War II was "the war to defeat fascism."
Iraq was sold as a war to halt weapons of mass destruction; then to overthrow Saddam Hussein, then to build democracy. In the end it was a fabrication built on a falsehood and anchored in a fraud.
But Afghanistan is the "good war," aimed at "those who attacked us," in the words of columnist Frank Rich. It is "the war of necessity," asserts the New York Times, to roll back the "power of Al Qaeda and the Taliban."
Barack Obama is making the distinction between the "bad war" in Iraq and the "good war" in Afghanistan a centerpiece of his run for the presidency. He proposes ending the war in Iraq and redeploying U.S. military forces in order "to finish the job in Afghanistan."
Virtually no one in the United States or the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) calls for negotiating with the Taliban. Even the New York Times editorializes that those who want to talk "have deluded themselves."
But the Taliban government did not attack the United States. Our old ally, Osama bin Laden, did. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are not the same organization (if one can really call al-Qaeda an "organization"), and no one seems to be listening to the Afghans.
We should be.
What Afghans Say
A recent poll of Afghan sentiment found that, while the majority dislikes the Taliban, 74% want negotiations and 54% would support a coalition government that included the Taliban.
This poll reflects a deeply divided country where most people are sitting on the fence and waiting for the final outcome of the war. Forty percent think the current government of Hamid Karzai, allied with the United States and NATO, will prevail, 19% say the Taliban, and 40% say it is "too early to say."
There is also strong ambivalence about the presence of foreign troops. Only 14% want them out now, but 52% want them out within three to five years. In short, the Afghans don't want a war to the finish.
They also have a far more nuanced view of the Taliban and al-Qaeda. While the majority oppose both groups -13% support the Taliban and 19% al-Qaeda - only 29% see the former organization as "a united political force."
But that view doesn't fit the West's story line of the enemy as a tightly disciplined band of fanatics.
Whither the Taliban
In fact, the Taliban appears to be evolving from a creation of the U.S., Saudi Arabian, and Pakistani intelligence agencies during Afghanistan's war with the Soviet Union, to a polyglot collection of dedicated Islamists to nationalists. Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar told the Agence France Presse early this year, "We're fighting to free our country. We are not a threat to the world."
Those are words that should give Obama, The New York Times, and NATO pause.
The initial invasion in 2001 was easy because the Taliban had alienated itself from the vast majority of Afghans. But the weight of occupation, and the rising number of civilian deaths, is shifting the resistance toward a war of national liberation.
No foreign power has ever won that battle in Afghanistan.
War Gone Bad
There is no mystery as to why things have gone increasingly badly for the United States and its allies.
As the United States steps up its air war, civilian casualties have climbed steadily over the past two years. Nearly 700 were killed in the first three months of 2008, a major increase over last year. In a recent incident, 47 members of a wedding party were killed in Helmand Province. In a society where clan, tribe, and blood feuds are a part of daily life, that single act sowed a generation of enmity.
Anatol Lieven, a professor of war at King's College London, says that a major impetus behind the growing resistance is anger over the death of family members and neighbors.
Lieven says it is as if Afghanistan is "becoming a sort of surreal hunting estate, in which the U.S. and NATO breed the very terrorists they then track down."
Once a population turns against an occupation (or just decides to stay neutral), there are few places in the world where an occupier can win. Afghanistan, with its enormous size and daunting geography, is certainly not one of them.
Writing in Der Spiegel, Ullrich Fichter says that glancing at a map in the International Security Assistance Force's (ISAF) headquarters outside Kandahar could give one the impression that Afghanistan is under control. "Colorful little flags identify the NATO troops presence throughout the country," Germans in the northeast, Americans in the east, Italians in the West, British and Canadians in the south, with flags from Turkey, the Netherlands, Spain, Lithuania, Australia and Sweden scattered between.
"But the flags are an illusion," he says.
The UN considers one third of the country "inaccessible," and almost half, "high risk." The number of roadside bombs has increased fivefold over 2004, and the number of armed attacks has jumped by a factor of 10. In the first three months of 2008, attacks around Kabul have surged by 70%. The current national government has little presence outside its capital. President Karzai is routinely referred to as "the mayor of Kabul."
According to Der Spiegel, the Taliban are moving north toward Kunduz, just as they did in 1994 when they broke out of their base in Kandahar and started their drive to take over the country. The Asia Times says the insurgents' strategy is to cut NATO's supply lines from Pakistan and establish a "strategic corridor" from the border to Kabul.
The United States and NATO currently have about 60,000 troops in Afghanistan. But many NATO troops are primarily concerned with rebuilding and development - the story that was sold to the European public to get them to support the war - and only secondarily with war fighting.
The Afghan army adds about 70,000 to that number, but only two brigades and one headquarters unit are considered capable of operating on their own.
According to U.S. counter insurgency doctrine, however, Afghanistan would require at least 400,000 troops to even have a chance of "winning" the war. Adding another 10,000 U.S. troops will have virtually no effect.
Afghanistan and the Elections
As the situation continues to deteriorate, some voices, including those of the Karzai government and both U.S. presidential candidates, advocate expanding the war into Pakistan in a repeat of the invasions of Laos and Cambodia, when the Vietnam War began spinning out of control. Both those invasions were not only a disaster for the invaders. They also led directly to the genocide in Cambodia.
By any measure, a military "victory" in Afghanistan is simply not possible. The only viable alternative is to begin direct negotiations with the Taliban, and to draw in regional powers with a stake in the outcome: Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, China, and India.
But to do so will require abandoning our "story" about the Afghan conflict as a "good war." In this new millennium, there are no good wars.
Conn Hallinan is a Foreign Policy In Focus columnist.
Copyright © 2008, Institute for Policy Studies
Delicious
Digg
StumbleUpon
Newsvine
Facebook
Google
Yahoo
Technorati
117 Comments so far
Show AllGreatly needed article -- thanks. A lot of constructive commentary too. Does anybody remember the US civilian aid and support of the Afghanistan Earthquake? Take out the military, the neocons, the Christian dogooders, and ask the Afghans if they would like some real humanitarian aid without strings. That might be a start.
Is this about whether we accept the legitimacy of sending more troops to Afghanistan or is it a schoolyard fight? It is very boring to read endless comments equivalent to "You're an asshole" "No YOU'RE an asshole, so suck my bawls."
Obama's talk of concentrating on Afghanistan, where ostensibly Bin Missing lives (of which I see no proof), has a dangerous veneer of sense to those who are not paying attention.
Thanks for the article, and we should be talking with others about the danger of glibly sending more troops over there to kill and die for lies. As someone said in another post, all candidates have to swing the war dick to look presidential in this arrogant militarized country. We can send money or non-CIA technical experts or work with other countries. No more troops.
Libertarian is just another name for 'rightwing asswipe'.
"Which is why the normal Leftist response to challenge is mere abuse.""
What exactly is the 'challenge' ? More rightwing, flag-waving drivel ? Is one supposed to respond to that nonsense ?
The very raison d'etre of the American Armed Forces (Marines included) is to support rampant American hyper-capitalism even if it means committing murder. There is no fucking glory in that. Dropping bombs from 40000 feet up in the air ? Wow ! How brave is that really ? Take a deep breath and pull your head out of your ass ...
dcbeltway...I became a Libertarian for much the same reason...I found myself liberal on some issues and fiercely conservative on others ....now I find myself a "Southpark" Libertarian...(I hate conservatives but I hate F*cking Liberals more-trey Parker)
Snowwolf which is why I am an independent because I see the same tendencies on the right as well. I also hate the left--right paradigm as people should really think for themselves and not let other promoting this divide and conquer strategy of the public do it for them.
"When you have an argument with a Leftist, you are not really discussing the facts. You are threatening his self esteem. Which is why the normal Leftist response to challenge is mere abuse."
Now this board is sounding like a bunch of Afghans! Constant arguing! Having married into an Afghan family I can tell you there's always high drama.... How ironic. Well as my husband always says Afghans fight too much amongst themselves now we CDers are doing the same over Afghanistan.
I would say that the most important thing for "right-leaning" folks to realize is that during the past eight years (for starters) you have been snookered...sold down the river. (I assume) you unknowingly have supported a government and party that is involved in some very dark activities.
In essence you have been manipulated. I believe that any human worth this designation would be shocked and horrified, by the covert, behind the scenes going on. And, folks-with-a-'right'-turn of mind: I also believe that you are likely decent and good persons. Period.
There's a lot more to say, but I'd first like to see if anyone is interested in some real dialogue about this. If not, s' OK by me.
Oy Vay!
I would concur with sentiments concerning the place (of lack thereof) of insults in any discussion that proports to be a dialogue (or "multi-log") vs. a suffocating monologue.
Insults simply reveal a juvenile level of social and/or emotional development. And, a mental posture that is by its nature absurd. Think about it: if the supposed reason for demeaning someone is that their politics (say, "right-wing") reveal a lack of respect for human values - then anyone who denigrates another human shows that they come out of a similar mindset, and therefore have no basis for their position.
But enough about the seeming infinite human capacity for foolishness and stupidity.
gyptian August 2nd, 2008 4:22 pm
Thats just trash and you certainly confirmed what I suggested.
Clearly you "be-clowned" yourself....
SnowWolf and ThomasMore
-- ".I knew there was something I liked about you"
Once you two fuckbuddies finish blowing each other maybe we can continue this 'conversation' ??
Clearly i touched a nerve !!!!
gyptian August 2nd, 2008 12:06 pm
Frankly I simply pity you. People that can't make a point without insults is usually a pretty poor representative for their point of view.
I would ask exactly what you know about killing, exactly what you know about war, exactly what you know about Marines and the Marine Corp for that matter.
The peoople that have earned the right are those who have served, those who have personal experience with what we are speaking about. Those that know the difference between reality and ideology. I don't see what you base your expertise on? What validates your opinion? What supports your argument.What do you know about fighting, war, torture, fear, other peoples connection?
Only an idealogue doesn't see the difference between a military action and those that are serving in it. Only a keyboard warrior would assert the moral certitude that you and a couple of others have as to war, killing or serving soldiers or Marines.
This attitude makes people like that the same as Bush, Cheney and his boys.
I don't threaten anyone little child, I didn't before, but another child choose to take it that way because he had no other defence for his position.
What do the places you mention have to do with anything? Should I say that leftist Bill Ayers tossed bombs and was involved in killing and terrorism so you as a leftist are exactly the same as he is? Perhaps you might consider that.
I know that when we came back I had men that were spat on, I had men and myself that took horrible abuse from people that were very well aware that my men could not respond. Brave of them you think? Talk is cheap. And Don't believe its me thats a thug. Nor am I a racist.
There are others here that share your view of war and the service, but they simply say so. The only braying I detect is your rudeness.
Going back and reading your posts there doesn't seem to much constructive argument, just a bit of jingoism and a lot of abusive rhetoric. A bit troll like it seems, but I don't think you are.
@SnowWolf who wrote: "wouldn't it be nice to actually engage somebody with an opposing viewpoint?"
I enjoy a spirited discussion, but only when both sides can be supported with data or intelligent projections. However, I have pointed out several times on CD utter inaccuracies in your conservative talking points, most of which were debunked years ago. Yet you continue to parrot them here in this forum.
I and most other CD readers are tired of your propaganda, which we have heard for up to 8 years. You have nothing to offer here except trouble. But that is exactly why you are here. You thrive on discontent and chaos. Divide and conquer.
Your drivel is not worth my effort in responding anymore.
Thomas More....I knew there was something I liked about you
don't sweat gyptian...he has issues...none so blind as he who will not see ....and all that
People like gyptian live under the umbrella of their protection and have the balls to denigrate them...little does he realize that if it weren't for the American military he'd be having his head sawed off with a Ginsu knife in an Al Queada recruiting video...I really enjoy watching his buffoonery here...he makes himself look foolinsh AND uninformed...thats the best part
Thomas More
You definitely sound like a braying ass like some other poster once said. Are you threatening me now, like a friggin thug. Fuck the Marines. Does Fallujah mean anything to you ? What about Iraq ? Torture ?
-- "Youy as far as I know haven't earned the right to say "fucking Marines. Semper Fi my ass." "
So who has the right in your hideously righteous world ? I dont see any other rightwing-media-whipped American say it. They used to in the past but 30 years of rightwing rule has completely silenced all true Americans. This nationalistic, patriotic bullshit is what gets us in this mess all the time.
gyptian August 1st, 2008 9:38 pm
Youy as far as I know haven't earned the right to say "fucking Marines. Semper Fi my ass."
If I am wrong just tell me. But you are saying that you want other people to do your fighting for you and than disrespect them for doing it.
I was a Marine, my father was a Marine so I take your insult personally. I'd appreciate it if you would refrain in the future from making that kind of comment.
"you just parrot what you read on the daily kos and hear on air america…"
Hate is good.. channel it .. you are waaaay out of touch ..in my world daily kos and air america dont exist .. trust me !
This is the best you can come up with --
"U.N.= 200 Nations and only 50 are Democracies…Why not start our own U.N.?…to join you have to be a free market Democratically Elected Government with a decent human rights record
THAT would be American Leadership in action"
We have already started our own U.N. Its called American Imperialism and numerous client states subscribe to it. Most of them however are dictators who abuse their own people and god forbid they step out of line, we bomb the hell out of them and we continue the abuse. By 'American Leadership' you mean Bush and Co presumably. So you are an apologist for American Empire and Bush. In short you are an idiot.
"There must be seperate realities…because I seem to be a bit happier in mine…I know…Ignorance is bliss right?…*wink*"
Laughing….
Doom and Gloom...glad I could make you smile...now isn't that better?
Oh...and for the record...some of my best friends were and ARE Marines...and I am proud to have known them...
My son is Army though....
actually he's in "Hoo-wah THE CAV Hoo-wah"...so "THE CAV" must be better than the Army...*grinz*
just having my coffee and reading the overnight posts...
My My...such hate...
gyptian...nothing personal but you strike me as somebody who hasn't formed your own opinions about any subject...you just parrot what you read on the daily kos and hear on air america...
there are people here that can make an intelligent retort...however...you and tailcap ain't them
Oop! My mistake. My post above was in response to the most recent posting by SnowWolf.
*Sigh*
I guess tailcap...you know me better than I know myself...I should have come to see you instead of forming my own opinions...
Could have saved myself a lot of life lessons
"There must be seperate realities…because I seem to be a bit happier in mine…I know…Ignorance is bliss right?…*wink*"
Laughing....
PowerOfLove
I dont have a son and if I did there is no way in hell id make him a murderer. I wouldnt teach him to kill. I would also make sure he reads and re-reads the Constituition and interprets it correctly. I would also spend all my time teaching him why we shouldnt invade, occupy, conquer and subjugate other countries so we can own their resources. And most of all I would teach him not to join the fucking Marines. Semper Fi my ass.
SnowWolf August 1st, 2008 6:08 pm writes "...really don't get why the 'tolerant' left isn't more behind this war…the way they (radical islam)treat women and people of other religions is abysmal…"
-SnowWolf I can see you yourself have never been involved in a war. I think if you had you wouldn't be so cavalier about starting one.
People like you are a blight to the human race. I think you call yourself either conservative or Republican, well whatever, what you really are is a chicken hawk. A chicken hawk is one who has never fought in a war but is eager to send someone else.
Now to answer your very stupid question, the reason we aren't behind the war is because there is no good reason to be there fighting against other people regardless of how they treat their women. That my heartless friend, is for them to figure out, not me, not you or the US. Learn to keep your nose out of other people's business.
gyptian,
With all due Respect to your son (and I mean that) - you really would benefit from getting up to speed with what is already known.
Your best bet is Ruppert's Crossing the Rubicon. Check it out on line, if you wish or better yet, give it to yourself as rare gift. Our assumptions (the government narrative) re- OBL, the Taliban, and 911 are far askew from what I now believe is the reality of things.
Be aware, however: I can just about guarantee that you are not going to "like" what you discover.
"We didn't ask for this war…not one bit
They brought it to us…and now…you reap the whirlwind
I don't care of we fight them in Iraq…Afghanistan…Somalia….Pakistan…where-ever
My son isn't there because he "hates him some brown skinned peoples"…he went because the behavior of Al Queada and the Taliban runs contrary to every notion of civilization he was ever taught…by me…"
Wow ! Do you actually believe all this blather you spout ? This kind of jingoistic BS belongs in a fox news forum. All you and your son and other 'Marines' want to do is kill people. Maybe addressing the root causes of this bloodlust will solve all our problems.
We didn't ask for this war...not one bit
They brought it to us...and now...you reap the whirlwind
I don't care of we fight them in Iraq...Afghanistan...Somalia....Pakistan...where-ever
My son isn't there because he "hates him some brown skinned peoples"...he went because the behavior of Al Queada and the Taliban runs contrary to every notion of civilization he was ever taught...by me...in fact he tells me he is learning Arabic from the Iraqi Army Guys he fights alongside with at a Joint Security Station
I really don't get why the 'tolerant' left isn't more behind this war...the way they (radical islam)treat women and people of other religions is abysmal...they are totally anti-freedom ...totally against everything you and I believe in...even Obama wants to fight them in Afghanistan
"The U.S. kept beefing up Pakistani arsenals and kept supporting the Pakistani Military and their tinpot dictator Generals for the last 50 years. Go back and read up on South Asian history …"
Thats a very good point and true in the main part, but that doesn't have anything to do with....... "India and Afghanistan completely overshadow 9-11 but we all know that 3000 white people matter more than a million brown skinned ones !!"
I'm a we and I don't know that. I certainly don't believe it. Maybe you didn't mean it in a racist way, but were trying to give your point emphasis? It doesn't hurt at all because I don't believe its true.
Besides I don't think political decisions were made based on the color of peoples skin there anyway.
"Its a shame you feel that way."
Yeah .. well too bad .. truth hurts. Clearly the American conscience (or outrage) never kicked in for 15 years while the Kashmir insurgency and Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan was in full swing. The U.S. kept beefing up Pakistani arsenals and kept supporting the Pakistani Military and their tinpot dictator Generals for the last 50 years. Go back and read up on South Asian history ...
WTF
Do you want a forum or an echo chamber?...
wouldn't it be nice to actually engage somebody with an opposing viewpoint?
I promise if you have a well thought out opinion and make valid points I'll acknowledge them...there are others here who can vouch for that...
gyptian
"The thousands of terrorism related deaths in India and Afghanistan completely overshadow 9-11 but we all know that 3000 white people matter more than a million brown skinned ones !!"
that was totally uncalled for...this isn't a race war...its ideology
@elmysterio
Perhaps we should write to CD asking them to ban the following:
JakeNewton
Ariel_Sharon
Moshe_Dyan
dougnwagner
There are others.
"The thousands of terrorism related deaths in India and Afghanistan completely overshadow 9-11 but we all know that 3000 white people matter more than a million brown skinned ones !!"
Its a shame you feel that way.
AdjunctS said: "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS"
Agreed. I fall into that once in a while as well... the one that really gets under my skin is JakeNewton. Perhaps all us regular posters at CD can institute a policy of ignoring him.
dcbeltway .. good to see you here.
I posted a link above with this same info from the NY Times. The ISI is so deeply entrenched into the Pakistani power structure and the Pakistani Army that its going to take a very determined effort to dismantle and eradicate it. The $10 Billion the U.S. has deposited in their bank accounts these last 5 years has only strengthened them. We need to squeeze the $$$ pipeline immediately.
Pakistan is ground zero in bringing peace to South Asia. Afghanistan and India have suffered the consequences more than anyone else. The thousands of terrorism related deaths in India and Afghanistan completely overshadow 9-11 but we all know that 3000 white people matter more than a million brown skinned ones !!
Just a reminder.
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
A troll will take you off subject with incendiary remarks.
Check on troll status by googling the user name on this site.
(You can also do this for CD posters you like.)
Have they ever said anything progressive? How long have they been here?
This really should be said at the start of the page rather than down here where some will miss it....
Why is no one talking about likely reality that Bin Laden is in China?
yes...you're right...the Pakistani people are rooting for Al Queada and the Taliban....we all know that...the last time their Army went into the tribal area's (at our behest) ...they got stomped... so they decided to negotiate (we won't mess with you if you don't cause any trouble)...that pissed off our Government ...the ISI are actually HELPING the Taliban...we know that too
The Paki Government doesnt want to have radical Islam gaining (more) popularity there...its a tight-rope
One more from Pakistan check out photo 2:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7537222.stm
SnowWolf its a tightrope of their own making and I say let them hang themselves with it.
Pakistan's Government walks a tight-rope...I don't envy them
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7537868.stm
BBC article news source
Below is an article about Pakistan's support of the Taliban. My suggestion to negoiating with the Taliban is cut all aid off from Pakistan until they end their support of the Taliban...then you'll see results and an end to the war within minutes. We can then go into Afghanistan and continue to build schools, infrustructure, and a sound economy. As Lizard says we can then turn the Opium into products for medicinal purposes.
Pakistan admits to Taleban spies
BBC news
Pakistan's tribal region of South Waziristan is a militant stronghold
Pakistan's government has said it needs to purge Taleban sympathisers from within the ranks of the country's intelligence service - the ISI.
The statement comes amid claims from the US and India of links between the ISI and Islamic extremists.
Analysts say it is the first time that the Pakistan government has made such an admission.
US officials have claimed that spies in the ISI helped plan the recent suicide attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul.
Pakistani government spokeswoman Sherry Rehman said "individuals" in the ISI were probably acting on their own and going against official policy.
She said Pakistan needed to "identify these people and weed them out".
Supporting militants
The BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan, in Islamabad, says it is the first time a member of the Pakistan government has talked about the ISI in this manner.
In the past, President Pervez Musharraf has said that former intelligence officials - including those from the ISI - have given support to militants but he was careful to stress that they did not include serving personnel, our correspondent says.
Ms Rehman said there was no proof of ISI involvement in last month's bombing of India's embassy in Kabul.
US officials had made the allegations - based on intercepted communications - in briefings to the New York Times and the Washington Post.
The BBC contacted Pakistan's army spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas but he would not respond to Ms Rehman's comments.
The boy is good…he is re-enlisting for 5 years…"and changing his MOS from 19D (CavScout) to Supply…I asked him if he might find that boring after what he's been doing…he said:
"Can't dodge bullets forever"
So he can stay "in the rear with the gear" for awhile…he did his bit"
Thank God! I wish they were all home, and failing that, all in the rear with the gear. We'll just disagree on Iraq then. Corp intelligence guy's I know say that that Iraq was no threat to us and they tried to tell the dumbo's that, they just didn't want to hear it.
I believe it to be another waste of precious lives. Plus I'll never believe in pre emptive attacks. Not the American way.
Just remember to tell him to keep his hat on there too. You never know.
Pax
RICHARD PAINE: I'd love to see a singular seminal event, a new Woodstock, shape the consensus in such a way as to take down the dominant ILLUSIONS fueling this nation's rush towards fiscal, moral and karmic suicide... but...
I study the "As above, so below" Divine equation and what I draw from it is nothing that remotely resembles a quick or easy "solution." Processes have been set into motion that will take at least a decade to correct. I remember a story on the Weather Channel where a place in New England had an ice storm and suddenly remote neighbors worked together to promote survival for all involved. THIS is what I see... that the various life-threatening (certainly security-threatening) events scheduled to occur, some already have begun, will either bring people together for the true LOVE of life; or turn them on one another.
Sometimes I wonder how much of each person's conjecture in this forum is more truly the litmus test of their own beliefs about life, the universal laws and their OWN proclivities? We all see through the prism of who we are, and that colors what IS and may be.
There must be seperate realities...because I seem to be a bit happier in mine...I know...Ignorance is bliss right?...*wink*
"Doom n Gloom…your mood fits your nickname well…sheesh"
SnowWolf, someone has to be the bearer of reality. Stay tuned, you'll come around.
Richard Paine
"Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the others" know who said that?...Winston Churchill...(Who also said a good argument AGAINST Democracy was a five minute chat with an average voter)
Free market capitalism...even with its imperfections gives us all a pretty decent standard of living in this country...even poor people in the U.S. are rich by world standards...running water...a car...a tv...
I don't hate the rich...if you can command that kind of salary more power to you...if NAFTA raises Mexico's economy maybe they'll stay there instead of coming over illegally
Government doesn't have the answers...Politicians are nothing but a bunch of Posturing Apes...who talk a good game and do nothing ...I'll take that back...they exacerbate the problem to justify them staying in the business of solving it
and precisely WHAT are you saying is UN-Democratic about our elections?....(besides the Old Chicago joke about the living vote twice the dead once each)
Snow Wolf
where have you been ...what is Democratic about are elections? And free market is that like NAFTA? Yes that has done much for whom? If you wish to talk of ticking time bombs liable to effect this country are you talking of our banking and economic situation? The top 1% hold and control more than the other 99% combined this is your free market?
Thomas More...good morning...
The boy is good...he is re-enlisting for 5 years...and changing his MOS from 19D (CavScout) to Supply...I asked him if he might find that boring after what he's been doing...he said:
"Can't dodge bullets forever"
So he can stay "in the rear with the gear" for awhile...he did his bit
I have a hoo-wah picture of him taken by an Army Combat Camera Guy he made friends with...if you want to see just send me a hello to snowwolf102001@yahoo.com and I'll send it
matti--"I think its important to not let PC attitudes, or -and I know this one is hard, it is for me too- even genuine defense of Human Rights cloud the important facts in Afghanistan."
Hey Matti ... all is forgiven. Let 'PC' not stop you on your inexorable drive to conservative nirvana. Screw Human Rights. A few more burqa-clad abused women and children never hurt nobody.
Look...all I am saying is Saddam was just waiting for sanctions to be lifted (and they were going to be) and he was going back in the WMD business...and he was certain to get a little under the table action going with the other bad guys worldwide...He may (or may not) have had stockpiles when we invaded and deposed him...but yeah...I think it was justified...he was a ticking bomb
@SnowWolf who wrote: "So I guess that 550 tons of yellowcake that Saddam was sitting on…was going to be used for peaceful nuclear power like Iran's is…right?"
Oh, you mean the stockpile of yellowcake at the former Tuwaitha nuclear complex? You mean the same complex that the US dismantled after the Gulf War I in 1991? You mean the same yellowcake that the IAEA has known about and tracked since the 1980s? You mean the same yellowcake that the US never ordered removed after Gulf War I?
Yellowcake is as useless as tits on a bull if you have no means of refining it. Saddam was also sitting on millions of tons of components for binary chemical weapons, but no-one has ever suggested removing all that.
Get a clue. Had the yellowcake ever been a threat, it would have been removed in the 1990s.
SnowWolf August 1st, 2008 7:59 am
We certainly agree on the UN. Useless.
Do you really still believe that out attack on Iraq was justified in any way? Even most conservatives acknowledge it was no threat to us and there was no connection to the Terroists of 9/11.
Remind the boy to keep his hat on and even though he's with the 101, take a clue from the Marines...never volunteer till you have been selected to go.
Pax
"So I guess that 550 tons of yellowcake that Saddam was sitting on…was going to be used for peaceful nuclear power like Iran's is…right?"
Are you stupid or something ? sheesh .. imagine putting up with this BS first thing in the morning.
staying-sane...
So I guess that 550 tons of yellowcake that Saddam was sitting on...was going to be used for peaceful nuclear power like Iran's is...right?
Please...get a clue
Ask any American Diplomat why we are in the U.N. (and after the Official B.S. Line) they will tell you confidentially that the World needs a forum where you can call the worlds "bad actors" and Genocidal Dictators on the Carpet and expose their deeds for the whole world to see...
Want something actually DONE about it?...Their Leadership has to be dragged kicking and screaming into action because they are getting too fat off corruption and kickbacks (can you say "oil for food"?) Kofi Annan killed more Iraqis than our military ever did...
SnowWolf writes: "Doom n Gloom…your mood fits your nickname well...sheesh"
SnowWolf, doom and gloom is what Bush sold the American public after 9/11, and, stupidly, they bought it. Arabs were conspiring across the Middle East to destroy America, the story went, and if the U.S. didn't strike back decisively, a mushroom cloud could be the next thing we see.
Doom n Gloom...your mood fits your nickname well...sheesh
Bin Laden must be smiling and dancing. Having watched the U.S. in Iraq with it's massive borrowed three trillion dollar price tag, now switch to Afghanistan as the American economy tanks, Osama could not have imagined his success in moving America down the road to self destruction. As the dollar shrinks and the cost of oil rises the Afghanistan war will be ever more costly. Osama has America on the brink. All that's left of this tragedy is for Osama to be martyred and America to collapse.
wouldn't break my heart if we put U.N. Headquarters on the "Approved Targets" list
U.N.= 200 Nations and only 50 are Democracies...Why not start our own U.N.?...to join you have to be a free market Democratically Elected Government with a decent human rights record
THAT would be American Leadership in action
I think its important to not let PC attitudes, or -and I know this one is hard, it is for me too- even genuine defense of Human Rights cloud the important facts in Afghanistan.
1) There are groups at war there and this war must end as soon as possible.
2) One of those groups is the Taliban and, however abhorrant we find their beliefs and actions, they have a legitimate place at the negotiating table.
3) The best way to stop a war is compromise and negotiation.
4) The best way to stop Human Rights violations is to maintain peace and stability and bring people into the Community of Nations(UN)
5) The United States and its proxy NATO have no legitimate right to determine the course of events in Afghanistan, whether through continuation of Aggression, control of Negotiations, or prevention of these by the Afghani people who DO have this right.
The polls show the majority of Afghans are thinking straight here:
Negotiate Cease-Fire, then Armistice, then a Coalition government including all legitimate AFGHANI players in this matter -which would mean also the Taliban.
Why is Obama willing to "talk" with the Mullahs of Iran -who are arguably much worse than Mullah Omar, if only because of the scope of their power- but not with the Taliban?
Is it only because he believes the Myth that they "are the people who attacked us" when clearly those people (there were only 19) have been dead for almost seven years?
Or is something more sinister going on?
Has Obama even MENTIONED the U.N., and it's legitimate role in both the Afghan and Iraq "conflicts"?
Why has the U.N. and the Post-War structure of International Relations disappeared from even "progressive" and "leftist" minds in the United States?
Here's a fun (spooky) one:
Why did someone blow up the U.N. Envoy to Iraq so early on after the Invasion?
Who did?
(If you say "terrorists" of "insurgents" I'll scream)
Why was this a "targeted" truck bomb, aimed right at the part of the building where the Envoy was, and packed with a ton of high-explosives, when every other "suicide bomb" in Iraq is the "choose a random crowd of the 'other people'-blow self up" style?
Don't get too freaked out.
Have Fun,
-matti.
There can no more be a 'good war' than there can be a good rape or a good way of killing innocent children.
Siouxrose,Jlocke,and Annabelle Thanks.So it is the shock doctrine as used by those making the money. Do you suppose it might be possible since knowing what it is and we have had some time since 9-11 ..that maybe by staging something this 9-11, something large and massive, something spread out over the whole of this country (and dreamer that I am maybe across other parts of the world) as opposed to what happened in NY and the Pentagon, something totally Non-violent again in opposition....something in opposition to the money
both the making of and spending of and wasting of...something easy on the 'we the people' coming from a position of faith and hope and love as opposed to the shock& awe and fear, something somewhat spontaneous not totally centralized and planned for years and decades, something unique to each individual and area and group involved (as we were all affected and effected in our own individual ways as well as, as a whole world)
do you suppose that such a juxtaposition of circumstance might help or begin the healing we so desperately need to survive, or even better spark a spontaneous healing which would enable the Return of Our Nation,Constitution,and Government to WE THE PEOPLE and then we might understand the True Powers inherent in WE and turn this country on a course of PEACE and Goodwill and cooperation as opposed to war?
Can you imagine, do you suppose, is it time to awaken ?
Does Obama feel he must support the "military-industrial complex" in order to get elected?
And
How does the Afghan heroin drug money > U.S. black projects fit into the picture?
How willing are we to look deeper into this underworld...and the way 911 fits like a puzzle piece?
tetti tatti said it all in a nutshell, so here it is again:
"1- Direct negotiations with the Taliban have already taken place (Cheney's secret energy meetings) and failed, that's why the US invaded two countries.
2- Afghanistan: it isn't a war, it's an illegal invasion. Afghanistan never attacked the US, 9/11 was a criminal act done by 19 hijackers.
3- The invasion had nothing to do with 9/11 but with those bad negotiations between Cheney and the Taliban on the oil pipe line.
4- Cheney's secret energy meetings set the stage for another illegal invasion: Iraq."
I would only disagree with, "9/11 was a criminal act done by 19 hijackers." Cheney did that too and I would add:
Nothing Exists.
doug -- "Engaging and defeating the anticommunist antidemocratic Taliban militarily and democratically has enabled Afghans to begin to rebuild a tolerant society and reconnect Afghanistan to the world community."
I agree with a lot of what you say. However, the Taliban are not defeated. I fervently wish they were but they are not. They have enough and more support from Pakistan (ISI) to continue their drive towards Kabul. While they have suffered recent setbacks, its temporary and they will regain their positions and strength in no time.
Its clearly in Pakistans interest to have the Taliban in control of Kabul (Afghanistan) as they would love to counter India and Iran strategically. Hence they will offer a lot of lip service to the Americans but will effectively do nothing. Gilani was in the U.S. this week promising the world to Bush and went down on his knees and he received a bunch of F16's in return !! Trust me .. you dont need F16's to counter the Taliban !!
_______________
this just in from the NY Times !!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/world/asia/01pstan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=s...
Buy the entire poppy crop each year (6 billion) to make pain killers. The Taliban will be deprived of revenues and the Afghans will be happy. The world has a great need for pain killers. Provide heroin to addicts and you deprive the pushers and their criminal friends of their market and reduce thefts done to support an expensive habit (90 % of break-ins).
It is sad that this kind of European Durrand Line holier-than-thou Stalinist Pacifism passes as journalism.
(1) "Virtually no one in the United States or the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) calls for negotiating with the Taliban. Even the New York Times editorializes that those who want to talk "have deluded themselves.""
Does virtually anyone in the Taliban or the Al Qaeda Treaty Organization call for negotiating with democratically elected officials in Afghanistan or Pakistan? Even the writer of these lines editorializes that those Taliban who want to talk have deluded themselves.
NATO did not attack Afghanistan first. The Taliban, not Afghanistan, lends support to individuals who attacked the United States, Spain, and the UK- all NATO members. NATO is not an obstacle to the Taliban competing democratically for power in Afghanistan or Pakistan.
And just because British imperialism failed to conquer a free and independent people doesn't mean that the Taliban will. In fact, judging from history, the Taliban will have a hard time colonizing a free and independent thinking Pashtun people. The Russians failed, the British failed, the Soviets failed, and I am sure the Saudi Arabians will fail.
This is the story that is never told. And the world is poorer for it.
The United States and NATO are not engaged in Afghanistan to influence the price of natural gas and oil or to 'conquer' anybody. 9/11 mobilized world opinion against the Taliban and the world came together to oppose them. If any natural resource is implicated, (and a good reason for NATO to be engaged in building a tolerant and peaceful Afghanistan) is the presence of a large quantity of uranium. Afghanistan lies between Pakistan (a nuclear power) and Iran (a future nuclear power). Afghanistan should not be a battleground.
"UN Security Council Resolutions 2001"
http://www.un.org/docs/scres/2001/sc2001.htm
"Mineral deposits could contribute to Afghanistan's economic recovery"
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntr33452.htm
Defeating or democratically engaging an anti-communist non-ethnic religious movement that has failed to assert itself democratically in Pashtun Pakistan or Pashtun Afghanistan is self-defeating for social democracy everywhere. Progressives, above all others, should not fall for the logic of those who have redressed Stalinist Pacifism that embraced nuts like Hitler, by seeking to find a Molotov-Ribbentrop with the Taliban.
Engaging and defeating the anticommunist antidemocratic Taliban militarily and democratically has enabled Afghans to begin to rebuild a tolerant society and reconnect Afghanistan to the world community. Not as much has been accomplished because of Bush's invasion of Iraq, but more can and should be done to prevent the Taliban from continuing to plan and commit genocide and terrorism against the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan over whom they seek to create a dictatorship led by Mullah Omar and his aristocratic financiers and trainers in Al Qaeda. Defeating them or bringing them into the democratic process is critical to regional stability and global security policies of all nations, particularly those that have been attacked by Al Qaeda whom the Taliban has harbored since the 1990s.
-----------------------
"The leader of the Awami National Party, Afrasiab Khattack, which now governs the North West Frontier Province of which Peshawar is the capital, has said he believed Mangal Bagh and his men were a creation of Pakistan's powerful Inter Services Intelligence agency."
"In the past, these operations have been inconclusive," Mr. Khattack said. "We will have to wait and see if this one is conclusive."
"Pakistan Forces Shell Bases of Militant Leader"
June 29, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/asia/29pstancnd.html
-------------------------------------------------------
"The Taliban, which have solidified control across Pakistan's tribal zone and are seeking new staging grounds to attack American soldiers in Afghanistan, have sided with fellow Sunni Muslims against an enclave of Shiites settled in Parachinar for centuries. The population of about 55,000 is short of food. The fruit crop is rotting, residents say, and the cost of a 66-pound bag of flour has skyrocketed to $100."
"Taliban Exploit Sectarian Rift in Siege of Shiites in Pakistan Enclave"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/asia/26pstan.html
If there has to be a single digested answer to Richard's questions is has sto be Follow the Money. While the rest of us were doing nine to five or looking for a nine to five job the rest were manufacturing schemes of every sort (all connected together) to defraud all of us...So when you say that this administration has failed miserably I suggest that everything is going according to plan and will continue to do so. We don't know what the Big Plan really is, how it came into being and until we understand the motivations we won't reach any conclusions on how to deal with it. Yet....no man is an island unto himself..it will take all of the combined effort and collective energy of those who sincerely want to do something positive before it is too late. It has to be another political party, one that owes no allegance to anyone now aiding and abetting the cabal that continues to go about the business of defrauding everything and anything within their sites.
The Afghan invasion & occupation is not a good war. Barbara Lee was the only profile in Courage in Congress.
Yes, Hearts and Minds IS a GREAT movie! General Westmoreland is shown stating that "the oriental" just doesn't value human life. This juxtaposed with Vietnamese sobbing, as they lie draped over coffins filled by loved ones. The dvd is available on Amazon. Buy and share it.
listen to balakirev - ge has got the right dope. Founders did not intend us to protect the world and fight their wars.
Balakirev - would you say that our goreign policy changed during the first world war when democrat wilson declared that the world must be made "safe for democracy"?
let us know?
Why bring up poll figures when the aggressors themselves have done every little thing in disregard to any and every poll. And who exactly is polling the Afghans and who's paying the bill for these polls?
.
.....9-11, the NeoCons Secret Agenda, the Jewish Lobby, and President Bush, the Mad CowBoy were lured into the Middle East. For over 3500 years no Foreign Invaders have ever conquered these peoples.
These mountains, wadi, deserts, passes, and jungles have been death traps and graveyards since military history has been recorded.
Neither Bush, nor his 2nd rate Generals have a clue to turning this military disaster around.....In fact they have abandoned over a quarter of a million (250,000++) U.S. Troops, in place, in the Middle East to be defeated and killed.
IMPEACH both Bush and Cheney...........NOW !!!!!!!!!!!
.
It may be difficult to believe, but before WWII, the US possessed a small military.
For one thing, our constitutional forefathers famously distrusted the growth of the executive and military.
Second, our rulers had very little need for a medium or large military.
At present, the military arm of the US government is the largest command economy of the world.
The ideology of militarism, conquest and violence permeates the US culture (along with Mar's blood relative: commercialism (Mammon).
Of course, the US plutocrats are going to bankrupt the US. Earlier, they bankrupted the republic by transforming it into a militaristic empire. Now, they are finishing the job by bankrupting the government coffers.
Afg. Not a good war - ya think!!
Richard Paine: "How is it that a country which since the Infamous 9-11 has usurped its own Constitution and the freedoms of its citizens and foreigners as well, claims to know what is right and how to fix the rest of the world?"
When I ask my American friends this question, it really always comes down to the shock of 9/11. Americans decided that they would put their trust in one man, Bush, to keep them safe, and he took this trust and abused it.
How is it that a country in such disarray within its own borders has the knowledge to fix the rest of the world? How is it that a country which since the Infamous 9-11 has usurped its own Constitution and the freedoms of its citizens and foreigners as well, claims to know what is right and how to fix the rest of the world? A country who since the days of the great Ronald Reagan has continually deregulated Corporations, Oligarchies,Banking, Markets of Commerce to the point of near Depression (forget about recession). A country who has exported jobs and companies and now wars, how is it that they can do such things to the world? How is it that an illegal government within said country, with an approval rating in the Teens per centage wise among its own populace, having Broken with the Constitution which supposedly extends the right to govern to them, is allowed to do this and get away with it? Good war, Bad war.......war is hell folks and will you please tell me why we are putting up with it? Pretty please with sugar on top, I really would like to know and even understand why and what is going on.
RICHARD PAINE: Good diagnosis on disease politicus Americanus, but let's not confuse who this WE (thing) is... the usual stops when the carvan is careening into the abyss seem to be disabled, and many are spellbound, incredulous, truly ill, gone with the wind, working their butts off to try to elicit change among what's left of viable leadership... in other words the WE is a rather large pronoun that lends false legitimacy to the deft enablers of a coup that has gone further than anyone can believe possible. In a sense, we're all victims of post traumatic stress disorder, or is it Stockholme Syndrome for those who identify with their abuser... the supposed 37%. Likely the same ones who question global warming, evolution, women's rights, and believe the Iraqi war was a logical response to 911. ETC. There is a reality deficit operating, since THE reality has been shaped by a very efficient omnipresent mass media that knows who (hint: MIC) butters its bread.
There's a very good movie I was watching the other day -- I got it from my local public library -- it's called "Hearts and Minds" -- a 1974 film that, I believe, won the Academy Award that year for Best Documentary.
It's about the war in Vietnam.
And in the DVD voiceover-commentary, the director, Peter Davis, who went to Vietnam back then to film the documentary, said -- At a certain point you say to yourself: This war needs to end, now! By noon today. Just end. Because it doesn't matter who wins. If the North Vietnamese win, fine. If the Americans win, fine. But the war needs to end: NOW.
That was the Vietnam War. And if you go to the "Encyclopedia Britannica," you'll see that they estimate that 2,250,000 Vietnamese were killed as a result of that War -- at least 1,000,000 of whom were civilians.
The *Iraq* War has, to date, resulted in the death of over 1,000,000 Iraqis. See http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/01/31/6768/
So one has to ask NOT:
... "What is your plan for Iraq, Barack Obama, John McCain?
... What is your plan for Afghanistan, for Iran and for Pakistan, Barack Obama, John McCain?"
But, rather, how many more people have to die before you stop. Before you JUST STOP!
The headline today in mainstream media was: "Violence has subsided in Iraq." ...
NOT: "Over 1,000,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the War."
NOT: "The United States is involved in two wars in the Middle East and both major-party presidential candidates are threatening a war in *two more* Middle Eastern countries."
NOT an estimation by the two major-party candidates of how many more people have to die before all this "embracing of war" stops.
After it all JUST STOPS.
Frank Rich thinks the people of Afghanistan are "those who attacked us"? and so the nightly massacres of women and children from 50,000 feet up are "a war of necessity"? I do believe all wars are stupid, but no unprovoked attack I ever heard of was more brutal or more unjustified than this.
I hated this felonious assault from the moment it was first suggested, and no matter how many bombs get "accidently" dropped on mud huts, tiny villages and wedding parties, it will never become necessary. Nor will the innocent people of Afghanistan ever become "those who attacked us".
Rich does not know any more than anyone else who attacked us- I mean besides the mostly Saudi Arabs with box cutters who died with their hijacked planes.
But he and Obama can be certain it was NOT the
Afghan villagers and shepherds they insist on killing.
Hey guess what dogs? I am getting ready to go with my girlfriend to meet.................................yea, you guessed it buddy- Vincent Bugliosi! THE MAN himself is signing books in Pasadena CA. Guess what hosers? Yea buddy I will have my very own copy of Vincent Bugliosi's "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder ISBN 978-159315-481-3(2008)" signed by none other than Vincent Bugliosi!
I know you dogs are jealous. Aren't you? Kiss my butt!
Anyone that would call any war good is either an idot or a mental deficient.
"Paul_GA July 31st, 2008 1:40 pm
Ben Franklin said it best — "There never was a good war or a bad peace."
The truth.
No further comment from me, dcbeltway's knowledge on this subject suspends the need for guessing or many questions. They are covering it nicely and thank you all for it.
By shifting the focus to Afghanistan, Obama made a clever campaign move. But it just proves how cynical he really is. Afghanistan is not the "good" war or the "right" war. It was, for Bush and the neocons, just the entryway to Iraq. Obama should know better. He's playing politics with war, just as Bush did. He's a fool, just as Bush and the Congress are.
What would happen if there was a national referendum on the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, the possible war in Iran and the possible war in Pakistan?
Beyond that, what would happen if there was a national referendum on war itself -- in other words, war in general?
Maybe we should ask the question a different way? ...
How would the average American spend the $15 billion per month being spent on Iraq? -- on war? -- or on health, education and welfare?
(For a running total of how much is being spent on the war in Iraq, and *how else* that $15 billion per month could be spent, see the following -- http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home )
Those in power know damn well that if a national referendum were held on the question of "WAR OR PEACE, WHICH DO YOU PREFER?" that the overwhelming majority of people would vote for peace. Not just in America but throughout the world.
So, just for the fun of it, let's count how many times -- in this decade alone! -- the Democratic Party has betrayed the antiwar sentiment in the United States.
1.) In 2002, the Democratic Party told the voting public, and in no uncertain terms, that the Congressional elections that year would not be about whether the US should or shouldn't invade Iraq -- invading Iraq was a done-deal, a bipartisan decision -- instead, we were told that the 2002 elections would be about "other issues." ... In other words, peace was "off the table."
That's 1.
2.) In 2004, what could have been a referendum on Iraq -- a war candidate, George Bush, versus a peace candidate, Howard Dean
-- instead became a choice between two war candidates, John Kerry and George Bush.
That's 2. That's the *second* betrayal in this decade, by the Democratic Party, of the antiwar sentiment in the United States.
3.) In 2006, the Democrats captured both houses of Congress, chiefly because millions of Americans voted Democratic to end the War. ... However, in the days that followed their Party's stunning success, the Democratic leadership wasted no time making it clear to the American public that ending the War in Iraq wasn't in the cards, it just wasn't going to happen.