Miftin - my heart goes out to you. I've been there.

Yesterday I drove 150 miles each way to visit my relatives. Before dinner someone said a very long "prayer" then we all just sat there eating in silence. Eventually I had to start doing a monologue on various conspiracy theories of the ages just to keep myself from falling face first into the potato salad.

Look, lets' be real. The Pro-Life bunch is really a political movement couched in religion, whose sole (as in ONLY) purpose is to put women back into the category of property.

Men, in general, but specifically those who've been running our politics for a very l-o-n-g time, are so afraid of the power of women (remember, they all had Mothers) that they will try anything to restrain that power and keep women "under their thumb" - "barefoot and pregnant" - anything, as long as the men don't have to relinquish any control.

Let us also remember that more human beings (supposedly the personification and image of god's word on earth) have been murdered through the ages in the name of the very god the religious folk claim is the giver of all life, all loving, whatever.

Humans, with our tiny little brains, cannot fathom the purpose of the universe or their own existence. That makes many very uncomfortable, ergo, god was created to fill that vacuum. Originally, we had a differnt god for everything we couldn't understand or explain (i.e., a god of thunder, a rain god, a wine god, a love god, a food god, etc.)but we narrowed it down to just one god over the past few centuries. Then we went and created religion, which is really just an expansion of the command and control instinct of some men: my god is better than your god - so, these are the Real Rules, follow them or you must die.

Face it, no one knows why we're here, what created anything in the universe, etc. While we've been arguing about that for millenia, we're killing each other and destroying our planet. In the words of Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?"

ezflyer said: "Organized religion - a superstitious lot of mysoginists and self hating women, usually Republican, always conservative, frightened, reactionary, sheeplike, greedy, elitist, racist and dumb"

......and generally closeted homsexuals.

Kernel wrote: "Can you prove that the sun will come up tomorrow? We have to rely on faith that it will be there and your brainpower and abilities will not help much there. Can you explain how our planet never changes its course and has perfect timing when everything that men put together falls apart eventually?"

Wow. This is what we are up against. Folks who cower in the night, afraid the sun will not come up tomorrow, afraid the planet will veer wildly off course at any moment, terrified that only God has the power to ensure our continued existence on this lifeboat Earth.

Kernel, humanity has known the answers to these questions for a very, very long time. Get thee to a planetarium as soon as possible.

♪ God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe said, "Man, you must be puttin' me on!"
God said, "No". Abe said, "What?"
God said, "You can do what you want, Abe, but
The next time you see Me comin', you'd better run!"
Abe said, "Where you want this killin' done?"
God said, "Out on Highway Sixty-One." ♪

-- Bob Dylan, "Highway 61 Revisited"

Of course. The position that life starts at conception is utterly unbiblical. Life, according to God, starts when the infant takes its first breath.

And the position that the life of a child is sacrosanct is likewise unbiblical. Leviticus, for instance, mandates the death penalty for adultery - regardless of any innocent blastocysts. And of course there is the Flood, and the various God-ordained massacres.

The bible is not pro-life. But it *is* anti-choice. The household patriarch is the one with authority to terminate a life. Check out the story of Jephthatah, or of Abraham and Isaac. And note the curious absence, all throught the OT, of any prohibition of infanticide.

Of course. The position that life starts at conception is utterly unbiblical. Life, according to God, starts when the infant takes its first breath.

And the position that the life of a child is sacrosanct is likewise unbiblical. Leviticus, for instance, mandates the death penalty for adultery - regardless of any innocent blastocysts. And of course there is the Flood, and the various God-ordained massacres.

The bible is not pro-life. But it *is* anti-choice. The household patriarch is the one with authority to terminate a life. Check out the story of Jephthatah, or of Abraham and Isaac. And note the curious absence, all throught the OT, of any prohibition of infanticide.

Frederick Johnson says: "And what the fuck are you gonna say when Obama caves in to the anti-abortionists the same way he caved in to the god damn motherfucking gun toting NRA?:

Told You So?

donnaz says: "And the quiet rise natiowide of the pharmacists who are refusing to fill any birth control prescriptions…religion = control"

And does anyone think it will stop with birth control pills?

As a person of faith I have found the influence of the "Christian" Right in politics very disturbing.

To me, faith is a very personal thing.

I happen to belong to a United Church of Christ, though I was brought up in a different religion.

What drew me to the UCC was that they did not impose a belief system upon their congregants. There was an expectation that one believe in Christ, but even the belief that Christ was the Son of GOD is somewhat open. Also it is not run like any other denomination as a top down system, but rather as a bottom up system. Each church is autonomous , making their own decisions as to how their church is run. No Bishop, Pope or other 'leader' makes the decisions of the church.

While I believe Christ was the son of God, I also believe I am the daughter as are other females and all males are the son's of God.

I left organized religion for almost two decades because of the rules of many religious organizations. Few fit my belief system.

I love belonging to a group that openly searches for the meaning of our existence in this world and find it difficult to be content when I do not have my faith that there is a higher purpose than simply existing.

I do not feel I need to push my faith onto others but am more than willing to explain my faith when asked.
Believing that we are here to help one another, not destroy one another and that no one person is more important than another, including myself, is how I believe God wants me to live.

I willingly work to improve the lives of others on this planet by working for equality and justice for all, not just Democrats or those with whom I agree.

Those were the lessons I learned from the stories of Jesus, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr. and the multitude of other of God's children who have shown us our purpose on this earth.

Loving one another as we love ourselves.

Blessings and Peace,
Phyllis

with the GOP, the right to life ends at birth

To Daniel David : I suspect that when Obama wins along with "across the board dems " in Congress and together they perpetuate or escalate the occupations in the ME and elsewhere AS PROMISED , you will slink into your cave like Osama or Puff the Magic Dragon and we'll never hear from you and your blinkered optimism again . Too bad

Gotta admit , it's been fun hasn't it ?

This obviously is a subject that awakens many feelings in many people.
Being an observer of many years of the political process, I do not think that the true meaning of separation of church and state has taken place. Then again if there were so many politicians who actually believe the rhetoric they espouse the clever ones among them would have made a move long ago to secure religions place in the body politic. In fact it is not "in place in the body politic".

The Religious Right has if anything a tenuous hold on the control they claim to have. In the face of determined individuals nothing can stand in the way of what they wish to attain. But only when they agree on a common cause and focus the necessary attention are they capable of change and usually swiftly.

When enough Americans are dissatisfied with the current situation they have the remarkable power to change it. No matter what it may be.

I can very well remember a segregated South, in particular Okla, where racism was practiced in several forms. Whites against Blacks and "equal rights"; whites against Native People and Tribal people, and the mixes of the races even added more confusion to an outsider. It was the same in the deep south., but more centered on Black people and White mixes than Native Americans.

Now I have seen something that would have been unthinkable just 40 years ago. A "Black man" or if he were from Okla. he would be a "mixed blood" since he IS half white, has risen to the level where the people are looking to him for leadership and it may be that he will be president. This did not happen because the "White People allowed it", but more because the Black People would not stop working to make the changes needed, and then the White people (as a whole since there were many White supporters who worked early on to make changes) realizing that they needed to make the changes, are now supporting a Black Man/Mixed Blood, for President: unimaginable 40 years ago. In fact the same "religious right" would laugh at the prospect THEN. Now, many seem to be in support of the idea. This IS TRUE CHANGE.

The same will no doubt someday apply to the influence that religion has on politics and the process. If one were to view the "Religious Right" history, their influence has fluctuated over the years and they show with their many excesses and abuses of power that they are incapable of holding onto it, or doing very much good with it.

I remember being a young teenager when John Kennedy made a nationwide sweep speaking to Protestant audiences who were concerned that a "Catholic President might show more loyalty to the Pope than to his office".
The rest of that story is history that for an ever changeling society is almost ancient. For that period that was a remarkable occurance and since then the Religious Right has gone through many changes, and still is unable to keep up with the changes that society at large dictates.
There was a time in the Deep south when the marriage of a Black person and a White person were deemed illegal, null and void, and a punishable offense. Not now.

Abortion, which rightfully should be the choice of the person taking all of the risks; the Woman, was once illegal in many of the same states, and now even though restricted in someways, is legal.

Life changes almost every day, and the institutions, or customs or beliefs that do not keep up with the changes; are usually forgotten.

The Sioux Spiritual Leader Black Elk is quoted as having said: "Nothing lasts forever but the mountains and the rivers".

This too will change.

Why do we on the left who have a strong, personal objection to the needless death and destruction of human beings in the Iraq War have to fund it, anyway?

Many on the right have a strong, personal objection to terminating a conceived life, even though its legally defined as the choice of the mother to do so. I say, if you don't like it, go AWOL and try to escape to Canada. But, if you get caught, you'll do serious jail time!!

In both cases, a strong personal objection to the taking of a 'life'. But, when that objection comes from the left, its 'take it or go to jail'. When that objection comes from the right, its 'Oh, so sorry, how can we accomodate you?'

Liberal catholics could join the movement to convince the Pope to allow birth control.

I am Catholic, we are taught to work for peace and social justice. I am against war and pro-choice. (how, after all can someone be pro life and pro war?).
I am educated,I think for myself and firmly believe that religion has no place in politics.
Oh,yeah,I also believe in evolution.
I do "speak up when my church friends get on the right wing bandwagon" and I've actually changed some minds.

Kernel and fakedemocracy: listen to yourselves. You are a microcosm of this screwed up world. If my mother, bless her soul, could get a hold of you two, she would knock your heads together and tell you to make up and play pretty.

Kernel: I respect your beliefs, and I am glad they have given you strength all these years. But don't give me that crap about finding faith on the death bed. I have held the hands of several non-believing relatives as they passed on, and they were brave to the end with nary a whimper.

fakedemocracy, your anger is justified, the hypocrisy of organized religion is astounding, but you are demonstrating a profound lack of respect for people who are different from yourself. It is funny that a non-believer can show the same ignorant intolerance as the worst fundamentalists. What are you, a non belief evangelist? Two wrongs do not make a right.

One of the reasons I don't always read the comments section in Common Dreams is the anger that is so often a chief feature of the commentaries. Whether or not you believe as Kernel does that religion can be a force of good in the world, I'd wager that his approach of "religion is here to stay... speak up when your church friends get on this bandwagon..." has more potential to affect change than doing battle with the religious right. Anger comes up because you sense something is out of whack here, but is an angry rant really going to help anybody? "Common Dreams" is the name of this website; I wish people would use the site as a way to uplift and share rather than beat each other up.

The Jesus Factor
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/view/

"You are a disgrace to the human race with your stupid comments. Just because some some churchgoing people get caught up in Bushism"

Is that an apology?

I didn't realize only 'some churchgoing people' supported the war. Thanks for setting the record straight, because I'd love to be wrong. So... how many church people supported the war, 10% you say?

ACC___For your information, religion and faith in God are not "pathetic" as you put it. What is pathetic is someone like yourself setting yourself up to be superior with your great brainpower to anyone with some degree of faith in something besides themselves.

Can you prove that the sun will come up tomorrow? We have to rely on faith that it will be there and your brainpower and abilities will not help much there. Can you explain how our planet never changes its course and has perfect timing when everything that men put together falls apart eventually?

I agree that some people are misled by religious leaders, but others are misled by philosophers and so called experts of all kinds. You may not be so sure of your strong, self sufficient self when you are on the deathbed and realize you have no place to go as faith to you is a joke and only for the weak.

I do not know what you do in your life to make you so "strong" but I have farmed and raised cattle for over 50 years along with my family and do not consider myself "weak" for having a little faith in religion.

fakedemocracy__You are a disgrace to the human race with your stupid comments. Just because some some churchgoing people get caught up in Bushism does not mean that they all do. Pity the country if everyone had your views.

Religious freaks... never learned how to think.

They sit in a church, instructed how to dress, how to vote, and how to demonize non-christian peeps.

They fear everything, agreed with wagging war with no questions asked, and hide behind a $.02 yellow ribbon made in china.

They are pathetic.

Their christian zealotry is despicable.

They're disregard for human life is reprehensable.

They are the worst of hipocrites... marching around chanting support our troops... while laughing at web videos of americans dropping 2000lb WMD's on civilian hideouts.

And now they've been told by their Uniter not Divider Commander in Chief, that yes, it is about oil... they show NO remourse for murdering 100's of 1000's of God's creation men women and children.

Fuck the religious right. Tell it to their face. Call them out in their own churches of destruction. Tell them they are not welcome in heaven. Hell will suit them just fine.

The title implies that the republicans will be out of office soon. The religious right is not as motivated to vote for McCain as it was for Bush. But have you seen the emails or heard the whisper campaign being thrown at Obama. "Obama might be the antichrist. The end times is upon us. If you inadvertently vote for the personification of evil, you're damn to hell for eternity. After all he is a muslim." The Bible actually says we won't know when the end times will occur. But that doesn't stop this kind of talk. The republicans are pulling out all the stops to try and motivate the religious right to vote against Obama. This election is not a slam dunk for Obama. It should be, but it's not.

Religion is founded on a clear inability to reason with logic and clarity. It requires that the individual surrender his or her autonomy to that which does not exist, leaving him or her in a state of diminished responsibility in his or her own mind. Many people find this a highly desirable state, being unable to face the full consequences of being responsible for the self and the self's actions. Or perhaps they are simply lazy and prefer not to bother. It is always easier to shift one's burdens to a deity, to ask a deity to "take over from here," to tell a deity you're "sorry for what you did" and have thereafter the feeling that what you did no longer matters where it counts. A believer is a weakling, and wants everyone else to be a weakling right alongside him/her. Two of the three monotheisms are missionary religions -- they can't be happy unless they are out there converting other people. It's not enough to believe themselves, they have to push themselves and their beliefs on everyone else. It's a compulsion they have, and as any psychologist can tell you compulsive behavior is an indication of an underlying weakness of character.

I really wonder at Kernel, who says that "Religion can, if properly used, be a great help in people's lives." Yeah. So can exercise, eating right, and taking vitamins. Just how is such a pathetic thing to be "properly used"? Would you really ask someone to give up rational thought, believe in what can never be proven, follow the crowd because he or she is told to? Kernel makes religion sound like a belief system useful for the weak. Maybe that is what Kernel intended. Me, I'd suggest such people go to a decent university or community college and take a good course in philosophy.

Religion can, if properly used, be a great help in people`s lives. Wrongly used, as this Bush administration has done, can be one of the worst things for people. Religion is here to stay, but we all need to work mightily to see that it is not misused, as this article shows. Speak up when your church friends get on this bandwagon to destruction of womens rights.

And the quiet rise natiowide of the pharmacists who are refusing to fill any birth control prescriptions...religion = control

Unfortunately for those of us who "do not believe"--the Religious Right has proved themselves to be "wrong " on everything they espouse, and then apply to politics and life here in the USA. There many social directives, from slavery to the war to defend slavery -- to prohibitions of the actions of others in every aspect of life. They have been wrong. They drag everyone else along with them----to a road to failure.

They brag about the separation of church and state but they choose a presidential candidate because he "confessed that God told him to run for president", and they chose him twice----he just used the other aspects of a flawed system to gain office---then the religious right all agreed "it must be god's will".......

It is wonderfully ironic that a country where the body politic brags often about the separation of "Church and State" would have laws that govern how a woman should use her own reproductive system according to laws which are based on the religious beliefs of some members of the society.

This most likely can be attributed to the need of the Patriarchy of the Judean/Christian/Islamic belief system, that has always worked to control the very physical aspect of the Matriarchy, i.e. woman and reproduction.

The "religious right" does not seek to say for example that men should surrender any aspect of their own reproductive systems----and this is because WITHOUT A WOMAN----a "man"----is worthless in the area of "reproduction".

They will on one hand lament about the numbers of abortions while at the same time support a war in a foreign land that kills thousands of innocent---many of them "unborn in their mothers wombs" but thousands of "born ones" i.e. children as well.
And----to stretch things to the limit in absolute senselessness---they will borrow a trillion dollars from another country that is not only NOT "christian"---but truly separated from ANY church---- AND offers state funded abortions, as well as limits the number of children that people may have.
----- to bring "freedom" to those other people---or at least the ones who survive the war to bring them freedom------

If more people begin to publicly ridicule the "religious right", and mention at every chance their contradictions in logic and practice. Teach their children that these poor people should be held in pity on one hand and should be jailed for teaching their own children such ridiculous concepts and even religion on the other.
That these people should be mocked at every chance, by everyone who truly loves freedom---freedom to choose the circumstances of your own life---even the freedom to choose what you will do with your own reproductive system---whether male or female.
Mock these fools of the "Religious Right" back into the PRIVATE REALM---WHERE THEIR RELIGION IS A SECRET-- where 'THE SECRET' should remain for the rest of eternity. Then the USA may for the first time experience the separation of church and state that they brag about----but do no know.

Then in the distant future a Supreme Court Justice, or a President, or a Teacher, or any other person, put into a power will be there not because of their religion---but because of their merit-----since their religion is a very private thing----A SECRET.....

The USA has been a pseudo theocracy from the begining; the religious right simply wants to complete the process. The truly sad thing is that they then deny the historical fact that Theocracies in all of History have failed.

Those "who do not believe" should not let those fools drag them along to failure with them.

Thanks for your time...

"YOU ALREADY HAVE FIVE CATHOLICS ON THE SUPREME COURT, BUSH HAVING ADDED THE LAST TWO TO THREE ALREADY THERE." Without whose approval would these Supreme Court justice nominations be impossible? DEMOCRATS!

Frederick,

Obama (if elected) is not going to "cave" on everything as you imagine. But, if he does, you can cuss him out some more. It's the sure-fire fix for everything (in your one-track head.)

Organized religion - a superstitious lot of mysoginists and self hating women, usually Republican, always conservative, frightened, reactionary, sheeplike, greedy, elitist, racist and dumb.

"The second (and most important) solution is getting Obama elected so that this kind of "rulemaking" goes away for the duration of his term(s) and NO more judges sympathetic to hiding contraception are appointed."

And what the fuck are you gonna say when Obama caves in to the anti-abortionists the same way he caved in to the god damn motherfucking gun toting NRA?

"We're marching proudly backwards to the future."

That's where the religious right is taking us and that is also the motto from The Department of Homeland Decency: Decency Rules and Regulations Manual. It's a hilarious satire of these folks, from their willingness to spy on neighbors to see what they are reading to their need to make sure every sperm gets a chance to grow up to be a decent, although poor and struggling, Homelander. Daniel's right. Five Catholics on the Supreme Court is going to take us backwards.

The book's available at bookstores everywhere. www.homelanddecency.com

It's not just a matter of Congress "beating this back". The second (and most important) solution is getting Obama elected so that this kind of "rulemaking" goes away for the duration of his term(s) and NO more judges sympathetic to hiding contraception are appointed.

YOU ALREADY HAVE FIVE CATHOLICS ON THE SUPREME COURT, BUSH HAVING ADDED THE LAST TWO TO THREE ALREADY THERE.

Win this. Don't just gripe or blog. Win.

As history has shown, some of the more egregious acts of plunder occur during the waning days of any regime that knows that its' time has run out and the rats are busy fattening themselves up. There is also the element of leaving a monumental mess that maybe some of the depredations is left intact.

1.2 million dead iraqis is pro-life too!

why is it the pro-lifers keep killing people?

...and ruining the lives of those they don't kill?

It's going to take selling the Louisiana purchase to make repairs and reparations for the damage these lunatics have inflicted on humanity.

As long as you have rubberstamp GOP and BlueDog/DLC "Democrats", this one will get an "easy" pass !

'Its a crime to kill the unborn', says the religious right. 'That's what war is for, which we support'