End the Occupation of Iraq -- and Afghanistan
So far, Bush's plan to maintain a permanent U.S. military presence in Iraq has been stymied by resistance from the Iraqi government. Barack Obama's timetable for withdrawal of American troops has evidently been joined by Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, Bush has mentioned a "time horizon," and John McCain has waffled. Yet Obama favors leaving between 35,000 and 80,000 U.S. occupation troops there indefinitely to train Iraqi security forces and carry out "counter-insurgency operations." That would not end the occupation. We must call for bringing home -- not redeploying -- all U.S. troops and mercenaries, closing all U.S. military bases, and relinquishing all efforts to control Iraqi oil.
In light of stepped up violence in Afghanistan, and for political reasons -- following Obama's lead -- Bush will be moving troops from Iraq to Afghanistan. Although the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was as illegal as the invasion of Iraq, many Americans see it as a justifiable response to the attacks of September 11, 2001, and the casualties in that war have been lower than those in Iraq -- so far. Practically no one in the United States is currently questioning the legality or propriety of U.S. military involvement in Afghanistan. The cover of Time magazine calls it "The Right War."
The U.N. Charter provides that all member states must settle their international disputes by peaceful means, and no nation can use military force except in self-defense or when authorized by the Security Council. After the 9/11 attacks, the Council passed two resolutions, neither of which authorized the use of military force in Afghanistan. Resolutions 1368 and 1373 condemned the September 11 attacks, and ordered the freezing of assets; the criminalizing of terrorist activity; the prevention of the commission of and support for terrorist attacks; the taking of necessary steps to prevent the commission of terrorist activity, including the sharing of information; and urged ratification and enforcement of the international conventions against terrorism.
The invasion of Afghanistan was not legitimate self-defense under article 51 of the Charter because the attacks on September 11 were criminal attacks, not "armed attacks" by another country. Afghanistan did not attack the United States. In fact, 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, there was not an imminent threat of an armed attack on the United States after September 11, or Bush would not have waited three weeks before initiating his October 2001 bombing campaign. The necessity for self-defense must be "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation." This classic principle of self-defense in international law has been affirmed by the Nuremberg Tribunal and the U.N. General Assembly.
Bush's justification for attacking Afghanistan was that it was harboring Osama bin Laden and training terrorists. Iranians could have made the same argument to attack the United States after they overthrew the vicious Shah Reza Pahlavi in 1979 and he was given safe haven in the United States. The people in Latin American countries whose dictators were trained in torture techniques at the School of the Americas could likewise have attacked the torture training facility in Ft. Benning, Georgia under that specious rationale.
Those who conspired to hijack airplanes and kill thousands of people on 9/11 are guilty of crimes against humanity. They must be identified and brought to justice in accordance with the law. But retaliation by invading Afghanistan is not the answer and will only lead to the deaths of more of our troops and Afghanis.
The hatred that fueled 19 people to blow themselves up and take 3,000 innocents with them has its genesis in a history of the U.S. government's exploitation of people in oil-rich nations around the world. Bush accused the terrorists of targeting our freedom and democracy. But it was not the Statue of Liberty that was destroyed. It was the World Trade Center -- symbol of the U.S.-led global economic system, and the Pentagon -- heart of the U.S. military, that took the hits. Those who committed these heinous crimes were attacking American foreign policy. That policy has resulted in the deaths of two million Iraqis -- from both Bill Clinton's punishing sanctions and George W. Bush's war. It has led to uncritical support of Israel's brutal occupation of Palestinian lands; and it has stationed more than 700 U.S. military bases in foreign countries.
Conspicuously absent from the national discourse is a political analysis of why the tragedy of 9/11 occurred and a comprehensive strategy to overhaul U.S. foreign policy to inoculate us from the wrath of those who despise American imperialism. The "Global War on Terror" has been uncritically accepted by most in this country. But terrorism is a tactic, not an enemy. You cannot declare war on a tactic. The way to combat terrorism is by identifying and targeting its root causes, including poverty, lack of education, and foreign occupation.
There are already 60,000 foreign troops, including 36,000 Americans, in Afghanistan. Large increases in U.S. troops during the past year have failed to stabilize the situation there. Most American forces operate in the eastern part of the country; yet by July 2008, attacks there were up by 40 percent. Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security advisor for Jimmy Carter, is skeptical that the answer for Afghanistan is more troops. He warns that the United States will, like the Soviet Union, be seen as the invader, especially as we conduct military operations "with little regard for civilian casualties." Brzezinski advocates Europeans bribing Afghan farmers not to cultivate poppies for heroin, as well as the bribery of tribal warlords to isolate al-Qaeda from a Taliban that is "not a united force, not a world-oriented terrorist movement, but a real Afghan phenomenon."
We might heed Canada's warning that a broader mission, under the auspices of the United Nations instead of NATO, would be more effective. Our policy in Afghanistan and Pakistan should emphasize economic assistance for reconstruction, development and education, not for more weapons. The United States must refrain from further Predator missile strikes in Pakistan, and pursue diplomacy, not occupation.
Nor should we be threatening war against Iran, which would also be illegal and result in an unmitigated disaster. The U.N. Charter forbids any country to use, or threaten to use, military force against another country except in self-defense or when the Security Council has given its blessing. In spite of the U.N. International Atomic Energy Agency's conclusion that there is no evidence Iran is developing nuclear weapons, the White House, Congress, and Israel have continued to rattle the sabers in Iran's direction. Nevertheless, the antiwar movement has so far fended off passage of HR 362 in the House of Representatives, a bill which is tantamount to a call for a naval blockade against Iran -- considered an act of war under international law. Credit goes to United for Peace and Justice, Code Pink, Peace Action, and dozens of other organizations that pressured Congress to think twice before taking that dangerous step.
We should pursue diplomacy, not war, with Iran; end the U.S. occupation of Iraq; and withdraw our troops from Afghanistan.
Marjorie Cohn is president of the National Lawyers Guild and a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law. She is the author of Cowboy Republic: Six Ways the Bush Gang Has Defied the Law and her new book, Rules of Disengagement: The Politics and Honor of Military Dissent (co-authored with Kathleen Gilberd), will be published this winter. Her articles are archived at www.marjoriecohn.com.
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149 Comments so far
Show AllI knew dream warrior would be to chicken s to reply - she is full of monkey crap and the rest of you dorks know that as well. good luck with the business, however, I know how hard it is to be in one! love you dearly
yes dream warrior a nerve was stroked. I know your pain now feel mine. We are both in the same boat. We both pay the lions share of the tax burded. I love to do it. My wealth pays for others - i DO NOT CRY about it. Embrace your hard earned efforts going to uncle. Progressive taxation is the way of your future - my future, on the other hand, involves lots of deductions, investmets overseas, tax shelters and more cash that can be hidden! Dream Weaver - COME TO THE DARK SIDE. I await you with open arms and maybe a little somethin' else!!!!
Hey guess what dogs? I am getting ready to go with my girlfriend to meet.................................yea, you guessed it buddy- Vincent Bugliosi! THE MAN himself is signing books in Pasadena CA. Guess what hosers? Yea buddy I will have my very own copy of Vincent Bugliosi's "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder ISBN 978-159315-481-3(2008)" signed by none other than Vincent Bugliosi!
I know you dogs are jealous. Aren't you? Kiss my butt!
Well, Hermit, if you believe that the US invaded Afghanistan to go after BinLaden, or to help the people, then yes, it looks as if it has failed.
But I don't think that the US cares at all about the Afghan people, and it's pretty clear that they weren't after the Taliban or Osama BinLaden.
http://afghanistan-the-true-story.blogspot.com/2007/07/context-of-november-16-2001-some-al.html
Why do they think that they can subdue the Afghan people when the USSR couldn't? Well, there is no equivalent country pouring billions of dollars and tons of weapons into the anti-US fight, the way the US did for the mujahdeen in the 1980s, in the anti-Soviet fight.
When the US first attacked Afghanistan, my sense of fair play was offended. I told my friend, "How can the Afghans fight back against the most powerful country in the world? What are they going to use, dirt clods?" Pathetically enough, I saw film footage shortly after showing angry Afghans, being bombed from thousands of miles up, throwing dirt. They couldn't even afford dirt clods! I guess from lack of water, I don't know.
I believe that fakedemocracy is right on. The occupation of Afghanistan is about threatening Russia and China, having bases in their part of the globe, and about the pipeline that US oil companies were negotiating with the Taliban about. When the deal fell through in early 200l the negotiators threatened the Taliban with a "carpet of bombs".
This certainly makes more sense than some vague belief that the US is bombing Afghan civilians in order to save them.
"the 28% that still think that bush is doing a good job"
Surely that is a made up # by the MSM or the neocons. There aren't that many loony folks around.
marc melchiori July 31st, 2008 8:33 am
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LMAO!!! i'm sorry did i strike a nerve?
riddimboy July 31st, 2008 2:20 am
Firstly Dream Warrior … kudos to you to actually take time off to reply to that moron !!
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thank you
though its seems like an exercise in futility... just had to vent that all out... feel much better now ;)
and for the record... it wasnt just directed at this particular... errr.... emmmm person... but every single person that hides behind rhetoric like "unpatriotic" and "america haters" the 28% that still think that bush is doing a good job... its targeted at every cowardly person that is too afraid of taking a good hard look in the mirror...
i've always said i'd rather say i'm sorry and wipe the egg off my face if anyone can prove me wrong on my opinions of our govt and what they yet have to reveal of what they still have in store for us.... then state a hollow i told you so....
and i think you're right about pakistan....
is it just me or does it seem more and more.... that while they're saber rattling towards iran... that its not their intended or true target but something else... a bait and switch perhaps?
something truly does seem amiss where pakistan is concerned... i just cant quite put my finger on the "why's" of it yet... and truly hope that we can figure it out before its too late to
Firstly Dream Warrior ... kudos to you to actually take time off to reply to that moron !!
The Hermit ... your post is an excellent example of a calm and reasoned analysis. I pretty much agree with everything you say and i pretty much agree with dougwagner and therein lies the disconnect.
The Pakistan Military and ISI call the shots with regard to the Taliban as they are the ones who enabled and created them, along with our help. However, like Frankenstein, they cannot really control them now. Also the backlash would engulf them. But Pakistan needs to somehow tame the Taliban if they need to survive as a viable State.
The presence of American and NATO troops in Afghanistan is akin to waving a red flag in front of the Taliban and other Jihadis. The removal of American and NATO troops is essential in fixing this problem.
That pretty much leaves the unpalatable solution of bringing in Iran, Russia, India etc into the mix. I think a genuine collaboration between Iran, India, Pakistan and Russia is the only true solution to solving this problem along with somehow involving the Taliban in the power structure in a lesser role. I think these four countries can bring the various factions together and hammer out a solution thats acceptable to all parties in the mix. The key is to make sure India and Pakistan are on the same boat as well as ironing out the differences between Iran and Pakistan. Somehow Pakistan figures in every fucking problem !
public schools sometimes fail? Thats news to me.
Kudos for you for paying the largest share of the federal tax aurden. That must meen you and your husband are doing very well indeed with that business of yours. Congrats - honestly. The glory of the progressive tax schedule is that those who make the most dole out the most. Consider yourself lucky to help other citizens who are not as lucky as you.
I assume, because your in the top marginal income tax bracket that you were the recepient of the GWB tax cuts - you lucky devil!
Thank God Obama is on the way - I can't wait till he raises your rates from 28% to nearly 40%. As all the CD progressives on this site will atest the rich don't pay their fair share - well come Jan.2009 you can start paying your fair share.
The Hermit July 30th, 2008 10:58 pm
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Frankly, I would say I mostly agree with you. For whatever reason we are engaged. And yes, we won't win this fight unless the Afgan people agree with us and we help them, not them helping us.
We can easily overpower any country or combination of ciountries in conventional warfare. But you cannot win a gurilla war unless you are prepared to be totally ruthless...which we are not. And I suspect they'df still throw us out on our behinds in the end.
@The Hermit July 30th, 2008 10:58 pm
"The fact is that Afghanistan, 7 years after the toppling of the Taliban, is as much a shit hole now as it ever was."
"invasion by American forces *strengthens* the resolve of these groups. It has been demonstrated in history and we are seeing it again now. That is why violence remains at an all time high. That is why no matter how many are killed, they will keep coming."
That is not why violence has risen. It is because of countries like Germany who refuse to deploy in any part of Afghanistan where bullets are fired, despite the fact that Spain, the UK, and the United States have been attacked by Al Qaeda, who is harbored by the Taliban.
Who owns Kabul and Kandahar? The Taliban will not keeping coming from there.
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"Has anyone else noticed that in spite of the United States military's massively superior firepower, intelligence, funding, numbers and training, after 7 years the Taliban remain an unbroken fighting force, as motivated and deadly as they ever were?"
Has anyone else noticed Bush invaded Iraq? that Musharraf's regime supported the Taliban?
"The leader of the Awami National Party, Afrasiab Khattack, which now governs the North West Frontier Province of which Peshawar is the capital, has said he believed Mangal Bagh and his men were a creation of Pakistan's powerful Inter Services Intelligence agency."
"In the past, these operations have been inconclusive," Mr. Khattack said. "We will have to wait and see if this one is conclusive."
"Pakistan Forces Shell Bases of Militant Leader"
June 29, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/asia/29pstancnd.html
"The meetings took place days after a suicide bomber attacked the Indian Embassy in Kabul, killing dozens. Afghanistan's government has publicly accused the ISI of having a hand in the attack…"
"C.I.A. Outlines Pakistan Links With Militants"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/30/world/asia/30pstan.html
"When I am President, we will wage the war that has to be won, with a comprehensive strategy with five elements: getting out of Iraq and on to the right battlefield in Afghanistan and Pakistan; developing the capabilities and partnerships we need to take out the terrorists and the world's most deadly weapons; engaging the world to dry up support for terror and extremism; restoring our values; and securing a more resilient homeland."- Barack Obama, August 2007
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.event&event_id=269510
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"If the current policy doesn't change, all I can see happening in the next decade is an ongoing occupation with endless bloodshed and an ever-mounting bill to the NATO countries, while meanwhile the Afghanis live in fear of being hit by American bombs or punished by the Taliban for aiding the invaders. And we wonder why the populations of these countries resent the West so much?"
The people of Afghanistan and Pakistan resent ISI clones, including the Taliban.
"The Taliban, which have solidified control across Pakistan's tribal zone and are seeking new staging grounds to attack American soldiers in Afghanistan, have sided with fellow Sunni Muslims against an enclave of Shiites settled in Parachinar for centuries. The population of about 55,000 is short of food. The fruit crop is rotting, residents say, and the cost of a 66-pound bag of flour has skyrocketed to $100."
"Taliban Exploit Sectarian Rift in Siege of Shiites in Pakistan Enclave"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/asia/26pstan.html
rjm July 30th, 2008 11:58 am
I understand that most of the people who read this site and post here hate America. They are failures in life and want to blame someone, so they blame America. They can't accept the fact that they are not smart enough to succeed. They could blame their parents for being mentally retarded, but they won't so they hate America.
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i cant speak for anyone else but myself... but its because i LOVE america that what has happened in our govt over the last couple of decades has absolutely disgusted me...and what has happened over the last 8 years not only pains me but shames me to the core of my being!!!
but then again... you must be one of those few americans that were fortunate enough NOT to get caught up by predatory lenders and find yourself in foreclosure...
you must be one of those americans that dont mind the artificially bloated gas prices just to get us to release off shore oil drilling while the oil we are currently producing on our soil… we're exporting (between 60-70%) to countries that are trying to poison our children... or to countries that support the very same terrorist that we're supposedly fighting over there so we wont have to fight them here…
you must be one of those fortunate americans that can afford private education for your kids... cause you wouldn't be caught dead sending them to a public school…
you must be one of those fortunate americans that mccain talks about getting their skin checked for cancer and to wear plenty of sunscreen… cause you probably have no problem paying for healthcare…
you must be one of those fortunate americans that doesnt have loved ones in the military or worry about the draft being instituted because you're too old to serve… should that inevitable day happens… unless we stop these senseless wars... since ppl are wising up and not enlisting all that much and the military is running out of young ppl to send to their deaths…
you must be one of those fortunate americans that happily agrees that big biz deserves govt welfare while the rest of the country tries to decide whether they can afford medicine... food... rent... or gas to get to work...
you must be one of those fortunate americans that doesnt need to worry about the outsourcing of american jobs... and when that isnt enough the expansion of visas to bring them here to take the jobs right out from under our noses....
you must be one of those fortunate americans that enjoys the sterilized term of "collateral damage" while refusing to fully accept what that means... just in cause you missed it… picture it... DEAD PEOPLE!!! regardless of where they come from!!! body parts and blood everywhere from some of those "precision" bombs that ppl talk about... women… men children… babies… dogs… cats… you say collateral damage… I say … murder!!!
you must be one of those fortunate americans that doesnt worry about the govt over reaching their privileges and violating just about every bill of rights in our precious "piece of paper" constitution...
you must be one of those americans that thinks that torture is justifiable as long as its done with the honest belief of not causing any pain or duress... you must know first hand how affective water boarding is because you've had it done to you and can attest to how effective an interrogation tool it is to discern valuable information all the while applauding the govt for the foresight of destroying the evidence of this argument...
you must be one of those americans that curls their lip in disgust at "other" countries for curtailing freedom of speech but doesnt mind when our own govt is in the process of doing that as we speak here... ironic huh... with such progressive legislature as HR1955 or better known as the radicalization of homegrown terrorism prevention act of 2007...
you must be one of those americans that thinks the FISA bill was perfectly justifiable and the rest of the country is a nation of whiners for crying about such inconsequential things as rights and privacy and all that other nonsense...
you must be one of those fortunate americans that benefited from the bush tax decreases while the rest of the country has to foot the bill for nearly a half a trillion dollar deficit... (that number doesn't include the wars in iraq or afghanistan in case you were wondering)...
you must be one of those americans that object to the chinese spying on us but has no problems on the govt spying on us… all in the name of the better good and public safety right?
man i wish i were in your shoes... they ferragamos too?
guess then i'd be pretty outraged at all this "liberal leftist" talk of an irresponsible over reaching govt that not only totally disregards human life and freedoms but the very premise this country was based on...
i'd be mad too if i were in your shoes... cause your version of america and the rest of the worlds are two pretty diverse views...
can i ask you a favor... can you please direct me to the place you buy your rose colored glasses... i need a pair or two to help me stomach this america that i see now... i want to live in your world of fantasy and non-reality...
i want to live in a world where i can be proud of all that my country represents... not just for the top few percent...
i want to live in an america where personal accountability and responsibility isnt only wagged in the face of starving poor americans that are desperately trying to figure out WTF went so horribly wrong while we watch republicans and the administration point at the democarats and the democrats point at the republicans... all the while politicians get such lovely gifts for betraying their offices that they swore to uphold...
i'd be mad to if ppl kept using such terminology as treasonous... criminal... corrupt...
on second thought... not enough rose colored tint in the world would make me happy enough to stomach the status quo in america today and turn a blind eye to the horror that has become our govt... all the while thumping my chest at what a proud american i am... because i have the courage to be "unpopular" and defend my country no matter what...
is that what being a true american means these days?
cant remember who said it and dont have time to google it...
courage is defined as action... not in the absence of fear but in spite of it...
you and all those that think that america the great is still the beautiful country it once was are courageous enough to take off those "patriotic" glasses and do what is right and begin restoring sanity and sobriety to a govt run amok?
or are you just going to continue to call the rest of us that want to see ... not change... but order restored... leftist america haters... and never take a true look in the mirror and accept the responsibility that you are as much a reason that the govt has gotten away with all that it has because no one has the guts to stand up and say... NO! THIS IS WRONG!!!!
guess a bunch of dead middle easterners and brave american soldiers is acceptable to you as long as its not happening over here right?
guess its acceptable that an administration has done such a great job taking care of its own.... and not meaning americans but their own rich cronies and giving them projects in this war only to watch our young men and women drink tainted water and get electrocuted in their showers... guess we're supposed to turn a blind eye to that and thats how we'll best be supporting our troops...
guess while we're on that subject... we can also discuss who its not absurd that we've wracked up a national debt of over a hundred trillion dollars for this war... while our troops have to provide their own armor... blankets... soap... sometimes even food... guess it would be unpatriotic and not in support of our troops to ask our govt to explain what all that money went to and how it was spent when our soldiers are doing without...
guess no questioning and demanding answers for any of this would just bee too distasteful... too .... ummm what is that term... oh yeah... UN-PATRIOTIC of us huh?
but I bet you think that as long as we support our govt that is "honest" and "just" while questioning NOTHING and pretend that it all doesnt steep in corruption... that its quite acceptable and patriotic of us to support hundreds of thousand innocent children and innocent people are dying every day all in the name of american freedom from terror...
what a terrifying world that would be huh?
what a terrifying world indeed!
***and before you cast aspersions on who i am … i put myself thru school... i am a college educated... married 40 something woman... with 3 kids and 2 grand kids… my husband works and i own my own business… we are in NOT in foreclosure and don't have a zillion cars… and we don't have credit card debt we cant repay… we live a modest life and try to help where we can when we can… we preach small govt and personal accountability to our children and when the public school system fails us… we step in to fill in the gaps… while trying to figure out why my family (and many others of our kind) has the largest tax burden of all…
I've EARNED my right to complain!!! can you say the same?
sorry but I call you the COWARD AMERICA HATER… for not having the guts to be a TRUE patriot and remind our govt what their job is and who signs their paychecks… you and your kind absolutely disgust me!!!
god love a right wing republican…cause I don't think much of the country can anymore!!!
If I may digress from the present shitfight for just a moment (holy crap you Americans are fiery!)...
This article focuses on the moral implications of invading and occupying Afghanistan, but I would like to pose another question that I don't hear nearly as often.
Putting aside momentarily thoughts of whether the war is "right or wrong", I wonder increasingly whether the war is actually worthwhile from a practical point of view. What is the goal in Afghanistan? To root out terrorists and destroy the Taliban (official US line). For the sake of the post, fair enough. Assuming that that is the goal - is it working? How and when will this struggle be resolved? When will we 'win'?
I put it to any poster who is interested enough in reading my post (right-wing or left-wing, I don't care) that the campaign in Afghanistan is and will be a failure, not purely on a moral level, but a practical one. This is a cynical and "defeatist" point of view, but it's hard to argue with sad reality. The fact is that Afghanistan, 7 years after the toppling of the Taliban, is as much a shit hole now as it ever was.
Has anyone else noticed that in spite of the United States military's massively superior firepower, intelligence, funding, numbers and training, after 7 years the Taliban remain an unbroken fighting force, as motivated and deadly as they ever were?
Historically, occupations of this sort have failed. Again, look to the Soviet Union. They stayed for a decade and tried to "stabilise" the country, but eventually realised the folly of their efforts and ran home to lick their wounds. If the current policy doesn't change, all I can see happening in the next decade is an ongoing occupation with endless bloodshed and an ever-mounting bill to the NATO countries, while meanwhile the Afghanis live in fear of being hit by American bombs or punished by the Taliban for aiding the invaders. And we wonder why the populations of these countries resent the West so much?
I am very anti-Taliban. I think that they are one of the most stone-age political organisations on the face of the planet. Yet I am also not naive enough to believe that dropping bombs on their country is going to make them go away. On the contrary, invasion by American forces *strengthens* the resolve of these groups. It has been demonstrated in history and we are seeing it again now. That is why violence remains at an all time high. That is why no matter how many are killed, they will keep coming.
We need to focus our attention on TALKING to them and bringing them into the twenty-first century so that the mentality that perpetuates the kind of violent (religiously-based) extremism that the Taliban represent can be done away with. Bombing religious fanatics, believe it or not, does not destroy their zeal. It has exactly the opposite effect.
As much as we (and indeed many Afghanis) may dislike the Taliban, at the end of the day Afghanistan belongs to the Afghanis, not to the West. Military occupation apparently fixes nothing. Bombing campaigns fix nothing. The Taliban are still there, and they will not go away. If change is to occur in Afghanistan, it must come from within, not from the outside and not instigated at the barrel of a gun.
I don't know whether the conflict with the Taliban can be resolved, but I do know that history has shown that attempting to stamp them out with force is virtually impossible; the only way we have a chance to stabilise Afghanistan and create for the country a place in the international community is through open dialogue and diplomacy.
It's a terrible cliche, but remains true now more than ever: War is not the answer.
If you disagree with this position, please let me know.
Give the military industrial complex another year or two. But in lieu of shipping those arms to Iraq or Afghanistan let's just dump them in the ocean where they will do they most good for all of us.
@WTF
(A)WTF July 30th, 2008 10:17 am
"Alas, evidence indicates that the US invaded Afghanistan not because of the presence of Bin Laden and AQ, but because of an oil deal that did not favor US corporate interests and to further US hegemony in the middle-east."
The United States and NATO are not engaged in Afghanistan to influence the price of natural gas and oil. 9/11 mobilized world opinion against the Taliban and the world came together to oppose them. If any natural resource is implicated, (and a good reason for us to be engaged in building a tolerant and peaceful Afghanistan) is the presence of a large quantity of uranium. Afghanistan lies between Pakistan (a nuclear power) and Iran (a future nuclear power).
"UN Security Council Resolutions 2001″
http://www.un.org/docs/scres/2001/sc2001.htm
"Mineral deposits could contribute to Afghanistan's economic recovery"
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntr33452.htm
B) WTF July 30th, 2008 10:17 am
"While Bin Laden is a wanted terrorist, he has not been formally connected with 9/11 (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm). 9/11 was a Saudi hit-job."
Bin Laden's denial of his role in the 1998 bombings of the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 and terrorism against the Afghan and Pakistani people is irrelevant. Just because Jeffrey Dahmer didn't admit responsibility doesn't mean he didn't do it or that an arrest warrant is not justified. Bin Laden puts his money (millions of dollars of it) where his mouth is. He doesn't support rule of law. He wants to be dictator of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
"Through its course of actions the (Saudi) regime has torn off its legitimacy:
(1) Suspension of the Islamic Shari'ah law and exchanging it with man made civil law. The regime entered into a bloody confrontation with the truthful Ulamah and the righteous youths (we sanctify nobody; Allah sanctify Whom He pleaseth)…"- Osama bin Laden, 1996
"Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
"The United States is a democratic government, and democratic governments should work for democratic values across the globe. Pakistan is no exception."- Pakistan Supreme Court Justice Rana Bhagwandas
"Pakistan Attempts to Crush Protests by Lawyers"
www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/world/asia/06pakistan.html
(C) WTF July 30th, 2008 10:17 am
"While the Taliban are not the friendliest of cults, they did at least eliminate all opium production in Afghanistan by 2001, which is a good thing for humanity, don't you think? Since the US invaded Afghanistan, opium production has reached new records, much to the detriment of millions of drug-users worldwide."
There are worse things than the production of opiates (which have legitimate medical uses). Like the Taliban. You cannot blame the addiction on growers.
"Taliban Exploit Sectarian Rift in Siege of Shiites in Pakistan Enclave"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/asia/26pstan.html
Defeating or democratically engaging an anti-communist non-ethnic religious movement that has failed to assert itself democratically in Pashtun Pakistan or Pashtun Afghanistan is self-defeating for social democracy everywhere. Progressives, above all others, should not fall for the logic of those who have redressed Stalinist Pacifism that embraced nuts like Hitler, by seeking to find a Molotov-Ribbentrop with the Taliban.
Engaging and defeating the anticommunist antidemocratic Taliban militarily and democratically has enabled Afghans to begin to rebuild a tolerant society and reconnect Afghanistan to the world community. Not as much has been accomplished because of Bush's invasion of Iraq, but more can and should be done to prevent the Taliban from continuing to plan and commit genocide and terrorism against the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan over whom they seek to create a dictatorship led by Mullah Omar and his aristocratic financiers and trainers in Al Qaeda. Defeating them or bringing them into the democratic process is critical to regional stability and global security policies of all nations, particularly those that have been attacked by Al Qaeda whom the Taliban has harbored since the 1990s.
showa over for tonight kids. Had alot of fun with this audience. you all were great. autographs for the new joke book are gonna be at the lobby come one come all.
and a special thanks to riddimboy who took the bait and ran.
Ok Ok Ok you asked for it.......
it's your county welfare line!
get it-----get it -----
long black stinky
kills every time. Go head use it at your next get-to-get-her. Its priceless! its a gem. Oh god i'm dyin' inside. Every time I end my act with that one the crowd goes wild. from bangor to sarasota from charleston to sacramento they all LOVE it. For free kids - I refuse to charge any money for that one.
AUMRJ July 30th, 2008 7:41 pm Thanks for the response. I guess we can agree to disagree. No problem.
AUMRJ July 30th, 2008 7:41 pm
"That will only occur if we first break the cycle of government dependence"
Thats one of the first probl;ems. We disagree on who is depending on the government.
I'd suggest that its more the government and big business riding the middle class and pretty much ditching the working poor. I think its pretty easy to make that case simply by looking at where the money is being spent and even much of the money that is being spent on Food Stamps other social perograms and Medicaid are for the benefit of business and caused by them thru government.
You have some points that are valid though. Education untill its returned to the local level is most assuredly "broken"
Tailcap, don't be so quick to lump me in with the administration. I absolutely oppose bailing out irresponsible borrowers, and I absolutely oppose bailing out irresponsible lenders. We reap what we sow, or we should.
Further, I don't necessarily disagree that money flowing to the war in Iraq couldn't be better spent (though I do think there are strong arguments favoring the initiation of the 03 invasion). However, I don't think it should be spent on social welfare programs either.
Thomas, I'm not entirely against "fall through the cracks" type programs that are temporary and that firmly hold the beneficiary accountable. Unfortunately, I have no faith that such a program could survive for long before it devolved into what we're experiencing now. You're right, times are tougher now. But don't you find it pretty pathetic that we would use that as justification for throwing this burden on the government? We all know what they'd do right now, which is spend more money that they don't have. My great hope is that we'll one day experience a moral revolution that prompts the majority of our society to take on the task of caring for others in our society. That will only occur if we first break the cycle of government dependence, and recognize that WE are responsible for both us as individuals, and us as a society. I strongly believe that government will never solve our problems with public education, our problems with teen pregnancy, our problems with drug use, violence or poverty. However, I think individual citizens working together can succeed in all of these areas, and do so much more efficiently than government.
Darn...I've got to remember to use spell checker, sorry.
AUMRJ July 30th, 2008 5:01 pm
If the average citizren is being banged from every side how do we help our fellow citizens?
I can only speak about Texas for sure, but we are besieged on every side. Taxes going up because someone has to pay and if you make a bit more than everyone else, its not you. Gas prices, food price's, staggering costs for us to subsidize business and their cheap labor. Less money, less donations. What then?
Obviously there are some Social programs needed to catch people that fall thru the cracks? Wouldn't you agree?
Ahuramazda July 30th, 2008 10:54 am
You wouldn't want to talk only to people yopu agree with would you? We can't learn anything that way. Besides neither side of a discussion has the truth 100% of the time.
I welcome anyone that hass something intelligent to say, in a civil way and I'd fall over dead if someone didn't suggest I was stuffed full of little green apples. Then they tell mne why they think so.
There are many here that will be astounded to hear that ....yes....sometimes I'm wrong. Hard to believe, but yes, its true. Or I may just not know enough about something like the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I've learned quite a bit from a number of posters, followed leads, suggestions. They weren't always right, but my impression was wrong. they were mostly right about abuse's that have been going on.
I can't tell the folks here all I've learned, its a lot, but I can thank you all.
There are very few real low hanging bits of fruit found on this site, but they are quite evident and most soon depart.
I know, longwinded!
I dont know marc ... is it something you swallow occasionally ?? Eel maybe ?? Dont be shy ... you can tell us ...
oh come on no takers. Come on take a stab at it.... then again have the custodian throw some sawdust on it and call it a day. Long Black Stinky
Its easy
hint - something that tailcap just mentioned
riddimboy - Ok Ok I got one for you. Your gonna love it. its over the top. It makes Arch Bunker look like a blessed saint. Every time I tell it to family at thanksgiving tears start to fall. I swear to you its got the magic that keeps 'em happy - a real zinger.... here goes.
Whats long, black and stinky? Yep that right - long, black and stinky.....
come on riddimboy. Use the old noggen.
nope not tellin' ya
AUMRJ July 30th, 2008 5:01 pm writes "As for social programs, yeah, no thanks. Individuals can help their fellow citizens just fine, thanks."
-Typically conservatives are against social spending. They do not seem to have a problem spending $14,000,000,000.00 a month on a "good war" started on lies.
To them profits should be privatized, but losses to Big Business, such as the latest Home Mortgage Swindle should, as their conservative representatives always do, fully socialize the losses at tax payer expense.
Bailing out greedy, corrupt Big Business is good, but they say to hell with helping Joe Sixpack from losing his home.
Welfare for the rich- good!
Welfare for the poor- bad!
hey melchiori .. repeat slowly after me .. r e t a r d.
Sorry, I used a bad word in that one the S+++ word. I know this is a family forum and I am sorry. Thats what happens to folks when they get carried away. Sorry.
All right.. All right now keep cool kids I got a lot more jokes commin' Now this one is horrible its down right dirty. Ya see, last month I had to make a layover in cincy. I was en route to Pierre and as I was sittin' at the bar having a-couple pops the guy next to me asks
"Why are Obama's lips so big?"
now having only had two scotches in me, draggin' on my last cig and feelin' lke dirt I looked at the gentleman and replied dryly "So he can kiss GWB ass for doing all the heavy lifting on the war on terror before he takes office."
Ha Ha Ha hows that one. It ain't part of the act yet- still needs some refinement - like myself - but shit you not it happen brother just like i tells it! just like that!
Tailcap, actually, being against war is fine. I'm against war, when it isn't a necessity. However, being against war only when it involves certain international players, and going after only a minority of the world's aggressors is why I have intense issues with the far left. As for social programs, yeah, no thanks. Individuals can help their fellow citizens just fine, thanks. I guess leftists only care about autonomy when it is something they can blame on Bush, right?
I'm not really sure what the DPA rationale is for voting for Obama. They used to quote his now stale antiwar speech from 2001, his promise to filibuster the FISA ammendment and how progressive he was, but now that they've gotten their legs shot out from under them. I just don't know.
What are the war policy differences between Obama and McCain? As a matter of fact what are the differences in policies in general? And seeing as Obama has reneged on a number of things and has no word, why should we believe what he says anyway?
In fact, the only real difference between New Democrats and Republicans is that they call themselves Democrats instead of Republicans. Policy-wise they are shades of the same thing.
riddimboy July 30th, 2008 3:55 pm
No need to reform. Keep throwing em!
At least you didn't let yours out of state. Look what happened when we let our old Gov. get out of our state. He went from the worst gov. of Texas to the worst President of the US we have ever had.
"Makes me wanna move to the mid-west and become your neighbor. I promise i wont be rude. Maybe you can reform my radical leftist ass and become American again"
I am rolling on the floor!!
For God's sake, don't move to Texas now, we are frying eggs on the sidewalk.
Peace always brother.
Those referring to pro peace advocates of social programs that help society instead of pro war policies that enrich the Military Industrial Complex as "radical ultra-leftist" are actually New Democrats. New Democrats are a bit confused, they haven't realized they are actually slightly left of center Republicans living in an increasingly militarized, soon to be police state in which their Democratic "leader" is both for war and curtailing civil rights.
The thought of opposing war and implementing social programs to help people is "ultra-leftist" and scary to them, tantamount to a revolution. To them calling you a "radical ultra-leftist" so discredits you that they need not address any of your arguments.
For a right wingers this is most certainly the case. For a Republican the word "left" is a dirty word akin to being called gay. Hence the confusion, they think they are not right wingers even as they oppose anyone to their left. For them anyone not supporting Obama is a "revolutionary radical ultra-leftist".
Those that do no remember the past are doomed to repeat it.
Thomas More -- "Rapidly becoming a Fascists state I noticed lately."
You are right ... we have a Fascist as Governor, not a lot you can do. Makes me wanna move to the mid-west and become your neighbor. I promise i wont be rude. Maybe you can reform my radical leftist ass and become American again ?? Peace.
Jeez..... nobody liked the lawn jockey joke. I'm tellin' ya I killed in Topeka with that one. Killed!
So you're now avoiding doing something you already claim to have done. Actually, no, you haven't debunked ANY of my incorrect statements.
Lisa merely claims that because the bombs we drop are big, they aren't precise. JDAMs are retooled precision instruments, that is their function. We don't fire them indiscriminately, unlike the terrorists which are celebrated as heroes on this website.
Try again, friend.
riddimboy July 30th, 2008 2:08 pm
You are rude , no doubt about it. It must be California you are referring to.
Rapidly becoming a Fascists state I noticed lately. Pretty soon you guys can dictate how everyone lives there.
"Please patronize someone else as you are wont to do so often."
Thats Horse Feathers and as usual insult rather than content. But We'll just agree that we have different views of Ameerica and let it go at that.
AUMRJ July 30th, 2008 2:26 pm
Don't be silly. There are probably no more than 5-10% of radical leftists on CD. They are the only ones that favor limiting free speech or freedoms.
@AUMRJ
Sorry, no cigar. Feigning innocence only works at high levels of US Govt, or in Israel. I and others (eg lisa3210peace) have earlier debunked some of your outrageously incorrect statements. You are unable to provide evidence to support your claims because none exist (except in the fantasies of Limbaugh et al).
WTF, pray tell, what unsupported lies?
Love freedom of speech. Give me a break. 80% of people on this website would love it if the US followed Canada and the EU in establishing tribunals to adjudicate whether controversial conservative speech is allowable or not.
@AUMRJ who said: "I thought you guys were progressive? For freedom of speech and discussion? I must have been mistaken."
We love freedom of speech. We are just intolerant of your unsupported lies, especially ones that have destroyed the lives of so many innocents abroad and in the US.
Thomas More
Just because i dont run around with an American flag sticking outta my ass doesn't make me any less American. I was born here in the bad ole USA but happen to live in an area that would rather not have much to do with this imperialist, aggressive, war-mongering, hyper-capitalist mongrel nation that we've become. Please patronize someone else as you are wont to do so often.
Tailcap, thanks for the reply. Continue to skip them all you want.
Now, run along and play revolution with your little radical friends while the adults run the globe. Thanks kiddo.
AUMRJ July 30th, 2008 1:34 pm writes "It's like a gold mine (prompt some ultra-left rant on mining).
-I have mostly skipped over your stupid posts because it quickly became clear to me you are some type of pro-Israeli imperialist idiot fool. You might like it better on some other website. Get screwed!
I must say this website is awesome. The true extremists are arguing with the Obama supporters over who can be more counter-culture and pacifistic. It's like a gold mine (prompt some ultra-left rant on mining).
Hey WSWS, I suggest that they don't 'COUNT' on anything other than what they have in there arsenal to effectively manifest there global scheme. They generate fear,hopelessness, inactivity,cynicism, despair through the precise use of psychological warfare, a science that has been refined since world war two and which is being conducted in multiple fronts on the US population. Carl Jung clearly articulated, using Nazi Germany as his case study, how mass psychosis is induced into groups, communities, and even nations. What has been happening to the US culture (collective mentality) is a text book account of the process by which a mass psychosis is induced and maintained. It is truly unfortunate for us, yet extremely profitable for the political/corporate elite, that we are completely uneducated as to the most important 'science of the mind' and as such are as vulnerable as a new born babes to the violent borage of psy-ops that are unleashed every day on the unsuspecting US population. How else can you explain the tragic denial, by so many Americans, of the blatant truth as to the crimes the US administration has committed such that Bush-clone-McCain has over forty percent of the electorate ready to vote for him.
Where the viral psychic epidemic has not contaminated the public mind, i.e. most other nations of the world, the average man and woman easily perceives the monstrous wrong doing that is rampant throughout the political/military culture of the US...it just takes that good old common sense that every healthy mind is endowed with . It is exactly this 'common sense' that has been the first victim of the preemptive psychological attack on the American public which could be called " Operation US Lobotomy " . It is part of the 'Mass Psychosis' that generates ignorance and the inability to see that this war is being prosecuted on the US as well as Iraq and Afghanistan. The imperial masters that are conducting this war are not US patriots and don't give a flying f..k about the American people; we're just another country that will be reduced to serfdom and servitude to these monsters of the PNAC (PLan for a New American Century) and will be the unwitting victims of what I would like to call this Psychic epidemic...'One World Disorder Syndrome'
What's the cure to this psychotic epidemic? Consciousness, Awareness, Real Information, Psychological Knowledge, Honesty and Truth, and the Dynamics of Moral and Ethical Principles. Avoid exposure to the contaminating medium, i.e. the official and corporate news media. Regular doses of love, joy, comradeship, community participation, generous acts of kindness and consideration, networking on behalf of the recognized truth. Non- cooperation with these forces of evil.Good luck and good night!
never mind all that. Does she have a funny bone? I have been trying to get this chick to laugh for days now - nothing. I do potty humor to???????
Thomas More July 30th, 2008 12:23 pm
Does that mean you aren't going to vote for Obama?
-Sir Thomas More you made me laugh out loud! Thanks.
GAO report:
Today's force also differs from the U.S. civilian workforce in a number of important ways. For example, the military is younger than the civilian workforce. From a racial diversity perspective, the military, as of December 2004, had proportionately fewer Whites, partly because the military has proportionately more African Americans.
So, you see old friend, my antiwar war position actually favors African Americans.
1. A vote for Obama will not end the occupation.
2. Obama wants to increase military spending.
3. Obama's advisers want to keep Bush's Defense Secretary Roberts Gates.
4. Obama has wants more helicopters, more satellites, more Predator drones.
5. Obama wants to add an additional 90,000 troops.
6. Obama wants to intensify the war in Afghanistan.
7. Obama wants to keep over 50,000 troops in Iraq to guard "our" oil.
Anything factually incorrect lisa3210peace?
Oh yea, why do you put "PEACE" behind your name if you support a prowar candidate? What is the part about Obama's stated war plan you don't get lisa3210peace? Are you confused lisa3210peace? Or are you dishonest?
p.s. If you have any honesty in you would take the "peace" out of your blog name and insert "war" instead. I won't hold my breath.
Ahura, I thought you guys were progressive? For freedom of speech and discussion? I must have been mistaken. We could certainly talk about the errors of Americans, but the emphasis here is on the destruction of America, not on sensible corrections. Further, there is absolutely no condemnation of radical Islam, only calls for harming Israel. If you possess the ability to discuss on such levels, I'd love to.
Lisa, JDAMs can be very precise. Loss of innocent life is always tragic, you'll get no argument from me. But there is resounding silence whenever missiles are fired indiscriminately into Israel. The United States makes an indisputable effort to avoid civilian casualties (while still fulfilling the mission, of course), while terrorist entities strive to inflict damage on innocents. Yet another example showing that many on this site are actually simply anti-American, not anti-violence.
Hey lisa:
what the difference between McCain and Obama?
Answer: Obama looks more dapper in the lawn jockey outfit with the small latern in his right hand!
Ha Ha Ha - Oh God thats one's gonna kill in Topeka this weekend. I'll have 'em rollin' in the aisles!
oh come on don't be such a buzz kill baby!
Shucks tailcap, you called Obama a (water) BOY.
Like "hey Boy, fetch that water?" That is RASCIST. 100%.
If you can't see that, it's because it is too deeply ingrained.
You call him a scrawny maggot-would you prefer him to lift weights?
Very intellectual post. Sublime.
Sorry Obama is Scrawny. And Maggot-Ridden.
Hey Boy, Fetch.
susanparker-- Remember the reprehensible "Cheney Doctrine"? "Even if there's just a 1 percent chance of the unimaginable coming due, act as if it is a certainty."
It seems to me a very small step from this enlightened and compassionate philosophy to a classic bit of folk wisdom: shoot first, and ask questions later. (There are many variations, "... God will know His own.")
Only an ignoramus, fool, or blind devotee buys into all of the bogus state-of-the-art military euphemisms, e.g. "surgical strike", "smart bomb", etc. Cognitive dissonance and denial rages from the top down. It's really all terrorism writ large, and it's all fair game.
It's not beyond belief that wedding parties are deliberately targeted just to spread The Fear and prove to both the victimized and domestic populations that the US imperialist occupiers and mega-warmongers are ruthlessly determined to prevail. Or it could just be a matter of considering the entire theater of occupation as a free-fire zone, in accordance with the Cheney doctrine. (It also applies during personal hunting trips.)
As some defenders of the practice would have it, who knows? Maybe there were "terrorists" included in that wedding party, or using it as a shield. The end justifies the means. Abominable.
"Something is very corrupted in the state of Denmark …" Indeed.
tailcap July 30th, 2008 12:10 pm
Does that mean you aren't going to vote for Obama?
riddimboy July 30th, 2008 1:02 am
This is nothing more than a question for my own curiosity. No hidden meanings, no criticism, no sarcasm...just a question if you or any others care to comment.
If you were trying to present your viewpoints to the general populace to persuade them to come to your way of thinking and favor policies you might like to put in, would you present those arguments as you do here or would you modify them? Present them in a more favorable light to the mainstream so to speak?
riddimboy July 30th, 2008 1:02 am
"And yeah you do come off as self-righteous and supercilious … we all get it .. you love the flag and you are American .. unlike a lot of us who are Californian or whatever !!"
Well, sorry you feel that way. I don't mean to come across that way. Yes I am an American and sorry you aren't At the same time if non Americans are going to make disparaging remarks about us, I feel that it is something that should not go unchallanged.
Frankly I'd be very happy if those that don't like our country and don't honor our flag just shut up about it and we confine the discussions to real problems.
WTF July 29th, 2008 4:57 pm
I checked this out and posted this elsewhere, but since you brought it up, I wanted to make sure you saw it.
"I talked to Kathy and she said she couldn't give me any instances herself. She forwarded to Joel and he says……….."Israeli settlers from Havat Maon unauthorized outpost (Hill 833) in the South Hebron Hills have repeatedly attacked children as they walk to elementry school in Tuwani. When I was attacked, I filmed the Israeli settler hurling stones at the group of children.
This is the fourth such incident this week."
We must always question anything we are not sure of and we must always be sure to never say any thing thats not true and verified. The last 8 years the neocons have been getting everyone's critisizm for that exact thing. And there are radicals on the left that are no better than those on the right about saying something to make their case, true or not. I simply try to be careful
Kathy didn't report that, but Joel did. Eyewitness account, no question.
It's an eye opener. But I still don't condemn all Israeli for the actions of some or even their government. Our government hasn't been representing the feelings of a lot of our population lately for example.
"Bushes "Shock and Awe" for Baghdad"
I saw this above and thought again, this phrase tells you everything you ever needed to know about GWB and his neocons. What kind of back room "warriors" they are.
You know what I miss? I miss the fawning pieces comparing the great and awesome hero, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to this warmongering little maggot, war criminal-in-waiting, Barak Obama, who pawned himself off as an antiwar candidate just long enough to clinch the nomination. Now he pushes war and saber rattles. Punk.
Obama: "And so my job as the next commander in chief is going to be to make a decision what is the right war to fight, and, and how do we fight it?
-excuse me, right war?"
For those cowards that say Obama HAS to be a war mongering hawk to get elected, I say then what use is he? He has no principles that are not open to negotiation. MLK knew he was going to be killed and he didn't back off. The difference between the way MLK stood fast with his principles and the way Obama sells his out couldn't be more striking. Obama will not even stand by his friends, like Jeremiah Wright, if it will cost him some votes. Obama is a maggot and a coward. The DPAs advocating for him are no better and carry his water. Sorry, it's the truth.
Scrawny punk Obama is nothing more than a water boy chickenhawk. He advocates war while never having served in the military nor knowing anything about the horrors of war himself. I recently saw The 300, about the brave 300 Spartans that stood against the hordes of Xerxes. What was awe inspiring was the way the the Spartan King, Leonidas actually lead the fighting. Nowadays, don't expect any chicken hawk to be anywhere near a battlefield, except for foto ops, as Obama recently did.
A vote for Obama is immoral because this bastard is advocating wars that are illegal and not sanctioned by even the normally compliant, rubber stamping UN. His apologists are like frogs that eventually cook in slowly warming waters because they are too stupid to jump out. These fools now support a war mongering maggot. Send all the Democrats straight to hell and go with 3rd parties. The sooner the better. And that's the truth!
The "too frequent" wedding party bombings and other calamities == AFTER 6-7 YEARS OF SURVEILLANCE PRACTICES == is very troubling.
It was troubling in 2001 ... but it is more troubling now... and there is never any explanation.
In Iraq recently a bombing of a 3 story building was "collateral damage" ... the target was a car parked in front of the building.
The idea that a congregation of people out in the middle of nowhere requires some lightening force sooner-rather-than-later bombing is similarly "implausible" but appears to be the practice. Certainly additional surveillance would have, could have demonstrated the mixed nature of the attendees, etc.
Do we REALLY have no assets on the ground? None?
I recall, irrc, in the fall of 2001 a report that we had blown away an exceptionally tall Afghan ... for the reason of his height ... since Bin Laden was/is tall.
That these callous green-light determinations are being made -- STILL -- when Karzai and NATO and everyone else have both protested and demonstrated their detrimental effect on "cooperation" is simply -- shoot yourself in the foot -- insane. But then, they always were.
The Army admitted a day or two ago that the 3 bank employees blown away on the airport road outside Baghdad in APRIL were in fact 3 innocent bank employees ... but those who fired on them, I have read, were cleared ... no mention, of the weapon found in the vehicle, assumed to have been a plant (the people in the car had made this commute daily for months )... or the "return fire" bullet holes in army vehicles used to concoct the "they shot first" lie.
Something is very corrupted in the state of Denmark ...
I understand that most of the people who read this site and post here hate America. They are failures in life and want to blame someone, so they blame America. They can't accept the fact that they are not smart enough to succeed. They could blame their parents for being mentally retarded, but they won't so they hate America.
From an article by Alan Nassar--"U.S. Fascism: An Historical Precedent"--Common Dreams/Aug. 2/ 2007:
"Clinton bombed Iraq several times weekly for eight years....The strategy was to extensively bomb water purification facilities and power generating facilities with the explicit intention to spread diseases that would affect children. The idea was to pressure ordinary Iraqis to overthrow Saddam, with the knowledge that if they did so, the pedicide would cease. But the Iraqis blamed Washington for this catastrophe, not Saddam. When Saddam offered to accede to Clinton's requirements for ending the bombing, Clinton abruptly replied that no possible concessions on Saddam's part would lead him to end the bombings/sanctions."
Bushes "Shock and Awe" for Baghdad was not about any minimalization of collateral damage. It was a massive attack on the civilian population--Total Terrorism.
As far as minimalizing collateral damage in Afghanistan??...don't really think so. How many families are wiped out on a regular basis due to faulty or bogus "intelligence" or just downright crass and wanton disregard? I'm afraid that "smart bombing" is more often than not a cruel hoax geared more toward some awesome and entertaining television viewing.
AUMRJ; "We've prcision bombed the hell out of Afghanistan"
That is Dead Wrong.
According to the USAF they are making on average now 68 different daily bombing runs/missions, each using 500, 2000 lb bombs and cannonfire.
This is up from about 35 per day a year ago.
Precision guided 2,000 pound bombs. Thats an oxymoron where there are people. Or would you like to be sleeping fifty feet away from one?
Or standing in a wedding party where one of these 2,000 pound bombs detonates at head level, precision guided?
AUMRJ
I understand that believing that USA and Israel are always innocent victims and never aggressive to its neighbors and have superior moral standings compared with other nations is fine. But most disagree with you on this website. Find some propaganda you believe in to comment on or some nationalist websites that are sympathetic to Zionist and American causes. You seem out of place here.
The USA has invaded the most nations post WW2 than any other country. Even those natons on the other side of the world with no way for the invaded nation to defend itself or to retaliate against the USA. al-Qaeda themselves said no USA soldiers allowed in the Middle East and that the USA should not side with Israel every single time as the people of Gaza starve to death. I forget why IDF lined up on the Gaza border and killed any person the IDF saw (yes including women and small children). Seems you do not care though. That's ok. Again, Israelis are saints and Palestinians are inherently evil. Ok...
No wonder most of the Middle East and most of the world are unable to stand the USA, Israel or any other "First World" country for that matter. Once again, the USA did not learn from History and this will wind up costing USA society trillions while Israel is hated more now than ever. Even more so if Israel and/or USA invades Iran.
Sleep on that thought...
Tumbleweed, so now kidnapping is ok? Also, we've precision bombed the hell out of Afghanistan. This is common knowledge.
why even bother with afghanistan, no oil no gas no coal no nuttin' Now it's going to be Obama's lasting presidential legacy. And after Afg. we march to pakistan!
As I have said before:
"Whats the only difference between Obama and McCain"
Answer: Obama does not need to use Viagra - yet!
That one killed in Omaha two weeks ago. Shold have been there!
I am one of the few who objected to the invasion of Afghanistan. The Soviet's tried it in the 80's and went bankrupt from the venture and finally had to withdraw. What made Bush think we were going to fair any better with the unruly Afghans????? I knew then it would be this kind of a mess years later. Bush and Company made no attempt at even going after those responsible for 9/11. Afghanistan did not attack us. They were only guilty of harboring Al Qaeda terrorist's. That's never stopped the CIA before from kidnapping those responsible and bringing them to the US to stand trial. Or precision bombing them into oblivion. I could see then that Bush was completely off track in dealing with the terrorism problem! That he didn't seem to comprehend how to fight them let alone how to defeat them. That he was going to waste Trillions on a fruitless effort.
So now we're blaming the US invasion of Afghanistan for people not being able to kick their drug addiction? Wow, the theme of this movement must be "Avoid personal responsibility, at any cost!"
@dougnwagner July 30th, 2008 6:37 am
Well written article, but it seems to re-iterate neo-con fantasies used to justify the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan.
Alas, evidence indicates that the US invaded Afghanistan not because of the presence of Bin Laden and AQ, but because of an oil deal that did not favor US corporate interests and to further US hegemony in the middle-east.
While Bin Laden is a wanted terrorist, he has not been formally connected with 9/11 (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm). 9/11 was a Saudi hit-job.
While the Taliban are not the friendliest of cults, they did at least eliminate all opium production in Afghanistan by 2001, which is a good thing for humanity, don't you think? Since the US invaded Afghanistan, opium production has reached new records, much to the detriment of millions of drug-users worldwide.
Bottle, I've seen suffering in numerous countries and domestically. What is insane is that you absolutely disregard the suffering of Israel, and yet probably question why so many people point to extreme liberals as anti-semetic. The peace sought on this site is entirely one-sided. These comments are filled with numerous and gleeful mentions of violence against the United States and Israel. A great fallacy of the radical-"progressive" movement is that they seek worldwide peace and harmony. In actuality, the entire premise of the movement is on destruction, and none of the "thinkers" care to discuss what happens beyond this. I'm sure from there it will be perfection, a world without tyranny because the US, UK and Israel have fallen, right? Laughable, idiotic, and painfully ignorant.
Riddimboy, I appreciate the "asshole" remark. It speaks well of you. Yes, we drop bombs from thousands of feet up. Of course, those bombs may cost millions of dollars per run and are dropped from fighters which were built for hundreds of millions, but you left those parts out. You leave out the part where we spend years, no, decades, perfecting targeting capabilities which greatly reduce the risk of civilian casualties. But then, such facts don't help you in your campaign to disparage America, do they son?
@Thomas More
Kathy Kelly's article reported "A masked settler, carrying a slingshot, was threatening the children" and other extracts from the lead story at http://www.cpt.org. I don't understand your confusion.
"When I am President, we will wage the war that has to be won....."
Heysanna, Hosanna, Hobama!!
After almost eight years of Bush and his neocon chicken hawks, we can probably look forward to a continuation of the same or worse with Obama and a slight, and potentially more lethal, reshuffling of the chickenhawks. Obama and Brzienzki, another ghoulish manifestation of Howdy Doody and Buffalo Bob gone mad. The Globalist Wet Dream Continues....even if the "homeland" doesn't.
more anti-semetism from CD.. i find this hard to imagine. Wherever there is trouble in the world a jew must be responsible.
what always blows me away is how reluctant these supporters of all things bush and that believe that only sunshine and honey flow from his ass and accept everything and the boys say as gospel... and everyone that dares question or contradict this great lil guy are just terrorist loving american hating unpatriotic nut jobs...
if thats the case... the humor us... whats the harm in answering some legitimate questions under oath and with evidence to back up these claims...
as so many FISA supporters say... if there is nothing to hide then there is nothing to fear exposing the truth in the light of day... right?
9-11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB.
The Israeli/Jewish/Mossad agents, who were set up AHEAD OF TIME caught filming the impacts of the planes against the Twin Towers and cheering the deaths of 3,000 Americans were just TOURISTS who coincidentally had a disguised van and tried to escape the scene.
And Note: Oswald killed JFK all by his little self, and if you don't believe that you are a "conspiracy theorist."
Zionists are first to deny 9-11 is a case of "we helped make it happen." Becasue the Mossad is part of the "we." Israel benefited. Remember the Israeli-Neocon push to get America to invade Iraq? (Similiar to the ONE THOUSAND LOBBYISTS Israel recently sent to DC to bribe and threaten senators into attacking Iran.)
There is another article right now on CD about Richard Perle if anyone has forgotten the Jewish/Neocon/Israeli drive for the Iraq Occupation.
Walt. Mearscheim.
(1) Why am I not surprised 9/11 conspiracy theorists (a.k.a. nuts) are aligned with withdrawing from Afghanistan?
(2)Cohn correctly admits that (a) "Those who conspired to hijack airplanes and kill thousands of people on 9/11 are guilty of crimes against humanity. They must be identified and brought to justice in accordance with the law." But somehow comes to the conclusion that NATO and world engagment in Afghanistan "is not the answer and will only lead to the deaths of more of our troops and Afghanis" which is narrow and dishonest.
Defeating or democratically engaging an anti-communist non-ethnic religious movement that has failed to assert itself democratically in Pashtun Pakistan or Pashtun Afghanistan is self-defeating for social democracy everywhere. Progressives, above all others, should not fall for the logic of those who have redressed Stalinist Pacifism that embraced nuts like Hitler, by seeking to find a Molotov-Ribbentrop with the Taliban.
Engaging and defeating the anticommunist antidemocratic Taliban militarily and democratically has enabled Afghans to begin to rebuild a tolerant society and reconnect Afghanistan to the world community. Not as much has been accomplished because of Bush's invasion of Iraq, but more can and should be done to prevent the Taliban from continuing to plan and commit genocide and terrorism against the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan over whom they seek to create a dictatorship led by Mullah Omar and his aristocratic financiers and trainers in Al Qaeda. Defeating them or bringing them into the democratic process is critical to regional stability and global security policies of all nations, particularly those that have been attacked by Al Qaeda whom the Taliban has harbored since the 1990s.
"When I am President, we will wage the war that has to be won, with a comprehensive strategy with five elements: getting out of Iraq and on to the right battlefield in Afghanistan and Pakistan; developing the capabilities and partnerships we need to take out the terrorists and the world's most deadly weapons; engaging the world to dry up support for terror and extremism; restoring our values; and securing a more resilient homeland..."- President Barack Obama, August 2007
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.event&event_id=269510
"McCain Outspoken in Defense of Musharraf"
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/12/28/mccain_outspoken_in_defense_of.html
"The United States is a democratic government, and democratic governments should work for democratic values across the globe. Pakistan is no exception."- Pakistan Supreme Court Justice Rana Bhagwandas
www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/world/asia/06pakistan.html
"Taliban Exploit Sectarian Rift in Siege of Shiites in Pakistan Enclave"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/asia/26pstan.html
"The leader of the Awami National Party, Afrasiab Khattack, which now governs the North West Frontier Province of which Peshawar is the capital, has said he believed Mangal Bagh and his men were a creation of Pakistan's powerful Inter Services Intelligence agency."
"In the past, these operations have been inconclusive," Mr. Khattack said. "We will have to wait and see if this one is conclusive."
"Pakistan Forces Shell Bases of Militant Leader"
June 29, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/asia/29pstancnd.html
"C.I.A. Outlines Pakistan Links With Militants"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/30/world/asia/30pstan.html
Marjorie Cohn mentioned 911 in her article. Now this is
very important. A comprehensive and independant
investigation into the 911 "False Flag" operation needs
to be implemented. The fact that "Dr. Strangelove"
Henry Kissinger was first nominated to chair the
investigation by President "Wacko" Bush says it all.
The Investgation into the "Challenger" explosion started after 5 days. The Investigation into how "Pearl Harbour" happened was started after 6 days had elapsed. The Investigation into "911" did'nt start for 411 Days.
The fact that President Bush and Vice President Cheney, reluctantly agreed to be interviewed, But not under Oath, with no recordings allowed , no notes to be taken, and no transcipts of any kind allowed is very ominous.
All the steel from the World Trade Centre and Building No:-7,some of which was "MOLTEN" was whisked off to China and India 10 months earlier to be melted down.
85 Video Camera Tapes were confiscated from premises around the Pentagon. The Computers in the FAA,CIA, and other Government Agencies were "Serviced" by Israeli Computer Companies. The Norad response was compromised.
It is obvious that that the three buildings were brought down by contolled "Demolition" using "Thermite".
The 6 "Dancing Israelis" filming the whole scenario from across the river with a camera on top of their van, were arrested. Traces of explosives were found in their van, but they were allowed to return to Israel.
The day after "911" with the Skies over the United States closed to Aviation, a jet full of Saudis, many of whom were members of the Bin Laden family took off from an airfield in the United States and flew back to Saudi Arabia.
The "Official" Investigation into "911" was a total Sham.
Whenever people start asking valid questions about "911", they are labelled as Conspiracy Theorists, or Nut Jobs, Tin Foil Hatters and so on. The people that attack the folks who don't believe the "Official" version of "911" are usually the Zionist Apologists, the Israel right or wrong people. Why do you think that is?
chiclayo July 29th, 2008 4:18 pm
Unbelievable, the hatred this writer feels for her country. Imagine drawing moral distinctions between our country and the Islamofascists who committed the Sept. 11 terrorist acts and continue today. I can almost feel the bile she spews.
_________________________
chiclayo… i bet if you lived in christs time you'd have been one of the ppl in the crowd calling for barabbas! huh?
__________________________
gasp! oh my! oh no she didn't! :-p
anyways… with that said… anyone that thinks that our govt is the purely fair and a totally democratic govt that only does what is right and just… is either a fool or a coward and hides behind calling the rest of us that are true patriots... un patriotic...
a whore is a whore regardless of how you dress her/him up!
has anyone ever questioned the connection of the bin laddens to the bush family or the royal saudi family that supplies more money to more terrorist groups then just about anyone else in the middle east?
my momma always said… you can judge a person best by who they choose to surround themselves with… makes you think huh?
you think these "real" american patriots ever ask anything or just believe... that america is the greatest thing on the planet thereby never being capable of avaricious greed or misconduct.... or outright bungling mistakes... that america is perfect and can do no wrong...
if thats the case... then why arent things better here? you think our economy might be some karmic retribution of greed gone mad? a way for the forces that be to wake up the sheep that mil about the country to see what our govt has been up to for so long… cause apparently millions of ppl dying in overseas wasn't enough for us to care… but raise the cost of gas and see the sheeple start getting so very mad and asking questions (just had a visual of a shirley temple pout moment)
we all need to take our rose colored glasses off and take a real hard look at our own govt and for anyone that encourages bush and friends to pursue the road we are on now... must realize that WE ARE the terrorist in this situation and how long will the rest of the world put up with us?
is it going to take attacking pakistan or iran? before the world comes together to put us in our place... or will it happen from with in? the arrogance of these last few administrations has been that they have begun believing their own propaganda... and THATS what brought hitler down!!! he began believing in his own bullshit and when he began turning on his own ppl cause he was running out of other countries to dominate... thats where he made his final mistake and since we know all too well that human beings are INCAPABLE of learning from their own mistakes!!!
things should be getting pretty interesting around here… if this want real life and real lives were at stake it would almost be interesting to watch how badly all this gets handled!
and i have to ask of all these "patriots" because we all know why we're in the middle east...
if brazil and new zeland can become fossil & foreign fuel independent ... then why cant the greatest nation in the world? are they better then us?
why can canada come up with a comprehensive social health care system but we... the greatest nation in the world... cant?
why can all these other countries come up with innovative technologies to help improve the quality of life and do it without destroying land... air … countries and/or peoples?
arent we the greatest nation in the world thereby making us the greatest people of the world?
cause apparently the administration wont apologize for the money spent in "defending" the country... but will it apologize for the thousands of needless deaths... had condi just read her memo over a month before 9/11… could all of this had been averted? ah but then had 9/11 NOT happened... what would ol' georgie boy have used as an excuse to attack iraq... since that was on his agenda before getting into the white house and thats why he made sure daddy's cronies helped get him there... by hook or by crook…
ever wonder what would have happened regarding this horrific event had gore been in office? wonder if he would have stopped to read the dossier that clinton had left behind about the imminent and perilous threat that was bin ladden?
hmmmmm?
so with all that said... isnt it about time we started believing our own hype and started acting like it? and started to get to the bottom of these things before someone decides that we the ppl are being harmed by our own govt and comes to rescue us and teach us democracy?
can you just see the headlines... the EU/middle eastern and asian countries come together to begin the shock and awe campaign in operation USA freedom!
just got a full body shiver!
Thank you Marjorie Cohn for all your good work. All this stuff needs to be said over and over and distributed far and wide.
Marjorie Cohn, well done- Kudos.
The invasion of Afghanistan was not legitimate self-defense under article 51 of the Charter because the attacks on September 11 were criminal attacks, not "armed attacks" by another country.
-That would make a future President Obama or McCain war criminals, however don't expect them to be prosecuted so long as we have the best Democratic Congress money can buy. Democrats and Republicans BOTH need to go!
I would advocate against voting for any Democrat that voted for the illegal invasion and has voted to continue occupation. This means a vote for Barak Obama is a vote for a war criminal in waiting as is a vote for McCain who are pushing for war in Afghanisatan.
Sen. Obama on whether the surge was a success: "... to try to single out one factor in a very messy situation is just not accurate, and it doesn't, it doesn't take into account the larger strategic issues that have been at stake throughout this process. Look, we've got a finite amount of resources. We've got a finite number of troops. Our military is stretched extraordinarily because of trying to fight two wars at the same time. And so my job as the next commander in chief is going to be to make a decision what is the right war to fight, and, and how do we fight it? And I think that we should have been focused on Afghanistan from the start. We should have finished that job."
Not only do both candidates advocate for war, but the $14,000,000,000.00 monthly price tag is bankrupting our nation and starving social programs designed to help people instead of the MIC. Instead of being the world's leader in the design of WMD and leading exporter of terror (US sponsored terror is when an Iraqi or Afghan wedding party gets interrupted by a couple of 500 lb. bombs dropped by mistake- now that's terror) we could be the world leader in the design and manufacturing of solar power panels and other renewable energy technologies.
If we want to take our country back we need to stop voting for ALMOST ALL Democrats and start joining and supporting third parties.
Those that do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it!
sung425,
Perhaps you are not aware, but you are spreading lies.
Attorney General Mukasey is NOT a "dual citizen". Neither is Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.
Here is the truth:
Israel will grant Israeli citizenship to anyone who is Jewish who MOVES TO ISRAEL. This does NOT make all Jews citizens of Israel!
Please stop spreading lies.
Sampson
Thanks for several real fine posts above.
Preaching historical patience to revolutionaries like many of us are here, can push red buttons sometimes. Not mine, necessarily.
You make a lot of valuable points - logistical and psychological.
I'm glad you're among us.
i do so appreciate so many people's participation and contributions here. Common Dreams and its people make it easier for me to breathe...
The epicenter of all our problems in the ME, Central Asia and the rest of the world is our complete support for Israel. I was in AIT in San Diego in 1967 when Israel attacked the USS Liberty. Yeah, we went to RVN istead. A waste. The wrong enemy. The world would have been a slightly better place it we would have taken out Isreal in 1967. And yet, it is still possible. Just remember that your Attorney General, Micheal Mukasey is a dual Isreali citizen, Ditto to your own Secretary of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff. Happy....yet. The real enemy is running our country.
Thomas More -- "I'm very fond of our flag. Does that make me a troll and self righteous? "
What does the flag have to do with anything ? Its a piece of cloth or paper and like most pieces of paper it ends up as asswipe. And yeah you do come off as self-righteous and supercilious ... we all get it .. you love the flag and you are American .. unlike a lot of us who are Californian or whatever !!
By the way .. i agree the U.N. is corrupt and inefficient but more than anything else its ineffective because we rendered it so.
The U.S. should never have been there in the first place. The airlines have been secured in this country now, so another 9/11 won't happen. All the U.S. is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is killing defenseless civilians and pretending to "protect" Americans by doing so. Isn't killing civilians considered to be crimes against humanity??
Ronald White July 29th, 2008 11:46 pm
Darn Ronald. I'm very fond of our flag. Does that make me a troll and self righteous? I'd point out that if we were Romans we wouldn't be having this discussion. You'd more than likely be wearing a slave yoke.
poopdeck July 29th, 2008 9:22 pm
Dad gum it poopdeck, I have to disagree with you. I think the UN is the most corrupt organization around and does little good anywhere.
wsws.org website July 29th, 2008 8:47 pm
We've only been around 200 years or so, I think you may be overstating the "caused more terror" senario.
We really aren't that good sometimes but neither are we that bad. At least thats my opinion.
AUMJ-- ""But sure, you're right, we're on the same moral plane as the Islamic extremists who indiscriminately lob rockets into Israel and who purposefully target western civilians."
We are. We bomb them from 20,000 feet up in the air. We kill innocent women, children and men. We invade poor third world countries because we can and control their resources. We are cowards. Live with it asshole.
Im amazed at the misinformation that floats around here at times. We are very closely aligned with the Pakistani Army for the last 50 years. They may make protesting noises for domestic consumption but we end up having our way with them. They dont call Pakistan the American Condom for nothing. For years Musharraf kept handing Bush and Co important 'terrists' as and when Bush and Co's domestic ratings were low remember. The myth that we dont know where Osama is living (hiding !) continues. There are occasional 'misunderstandings' between them and us but we normally offer up more goodies (F16's) and they come back in line.
Why exactly are we getting our thongs in a twist over Pakistan is beyond my limited comprehension.
Let's all be gracious and let the flag-draped , self-righteous "trolls"talk on like most dunbed-down Americans because the rest of us know the end of the story : US troops will leave Afghanistan , Iraq , Pakistan , Iran all 700 military bases world-wide ceremoniously as did the British from India and unceremoniously as did France from Ageria , US from Vietnam , Russia from Afghanistan... and very , very unceremoniously as Napoleon and Hitler did from Russia.
Belligerent Americans may even learn their hard lessons on the consequences of unprovoked aggression even better than the Romans did ; except for Mussolini , they haven't attacked another country for about fifteen hundred years and their empire lasted much longer than the American.
zzz: Hi. Let's be nice.
I think Obama and Nader each have plenty to be ashamed of. Both less than McCain though.
marc m: Hello. If the UN has an army it's news to me-I know they have some peacekeeping forces, whatever that might mean.
I said the Afghanistan/Pakistan conflict, beyond inevitable since it's already happening, should not be fought by Predators, the USAF and NATO but rather "under the auspices of" the United Nations.
An awful choice, but,
United Nations....or...USAF? It sounded easy to me.
As always, thanks for the clarity and uncommon sense.