Accompanied with this headline in today's Inquirer was another article by Burke A. Christensen subtitled "Founders Didn't Intend to Exclude Faith". Great job! We Repoert, You Decide!

Here's a link to the other article:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20080728_Founders_didn_t_intend_to_exclude_faith_.html

The subtitle of this one was "Saving Souls is not the Government's Job".

Separation of church and state? Don't make me laugh. USA Incorporated and its single-party "democracy" IS a faith-based initiative. What's more, unquestioning belief in the state religion is mandatory and the current methods used against heretics by defenders of the faith would put the Spanish Inquisition to shame.

Church-State Relations:

Progress-Prone Culture: Secularized; wall between church and state
Progress-Resistant Culture: Religion plays major role in civic sphere

From Harrison, The Central Liberal Truth

Is it possible that the US government is breaking the church/state barrier as simply another means of entrenching the imperial presidency, i.e. saying "we are bound by nothing"?

To fully comprehend the actions of government, it must be understood that some of their actions have no other purpose than the manufacturing of consent (or at least some measure of popular acquiescence) for their real agenda.

Seperation of Church and State simply means no State sponsored religion (IE; Church of England) thats ALL it has ever meant...CONGRESS shall make no law...(remember that part?)...it doesn't mean the absence of religion from public life...a Politician should follow his moral compass when making decisions

The more religion a government seems to evoke for the purpose of justifying their actions, the more corrupted their actions become.

I don't need the 10 commandments to know right from wrong. I don't need a shepard to guide me through life. I need rational, truthful discussion, including those that don't support my current position.

Do you want a doctor who is going to pray to god for instructions everytime before he operates; or do you want one that depends on his education, experience, rational thought, and if unsure, asks another doctor with more experience, before he operates?

Humans don't know every answer, but that doesn't mean that it is a mystery that only god can solve.

One of the reasons why society allows such atrocities, such as war and famine, is because many feel that when they get to 'heaven' everything will be resovled, like magic.

If there is no god, shouldn't we try to make it as close to heaven as we can here on earth?

Plus the fact that most religions are exclusionary rather than inclusive is another reason that religion is counter to the concept of a fair and just society. Just ask all the classes of people that have been demonized by religion throughout time.

"Only the ideas that we really live have any value."
--Hermann Hesse

The Question should be
who the hell is "GOD"; anyway?
----- And it needS to be-------
s-e-t-t-l-e-d

"ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME"

The United States of America---is the primary progenitor of the question--THESE DAYS ANYWAY*---FROM THE BEGINING THIS HAS BEEN "GODS COUNTRY"----and the question has not been whether "God" wanted to give this continent to
the "Americans"------but "Whose GOD WANTS THEM TO HAVE IT"
*The Europeans started it, but they could not answer the question so they are mostly silent about it no.

The question Does MY God exist or does YOUR God exist?
The Americans are the seekers now.
They have created misery in every part or section thereof of of all of the land masses on the ----entire planet----except for the Polar Caps ----and who knows, some people may believe that Santa may have a "PLACE OF WORSHIP" there at the North Pole----with tie bars for the Rein Deer like an old saloon.

The USA has spent billions of dollars in the past to bring "Freedom and Democracy to those who want it----and to those who "may" want it -----and even to those who do not ask for it-----and along with them come the missionaries----so they can straighten things out----for GOD.
SO DOES GOD EXIST?

Offer 1 Trillion Dollars* (Euros might be wiser actually) to the Doctor, Scientist, or other intellectual, or even the insane or mentally ill or the mentally retarded, individual or party, who can PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD----IN ANY FORM--------
Whether it be the Judean/Christian/Islamic----or any other-------------

Give them a reasonable amount of time. But a time limit, and this is a very important point: God could not be bribed into making an appearance-----since a trillion dollars is "chump change"------so there would be silence from that "corner"...........

If NO ONE can provide the needed "Proof" within the "Time Limit", then the "notion of a God that no one can offer proof of is no longer a "national question" but a "personal question" and should remain so FOREVER-------------keep it TO YOUR SELF----DO NOT BOTHER ANY ONE ELSE ABOUT/WITH IT---BECAUSE YOU CANNOT OFFER PROOF THAT YOUR CLAIMS ARE BASED IN/ON FACTS.
YOU ARE WELCOME TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT---BUT KEEP IT TO YOURSELF---AND PLEASE DO NOT BOTHER OTHERS WITH IT.

It might also help to start "Taxing Gods Income"----unless GOD wants to make an appearance and show proof that he/she is or should be exempt from TAXES-----

this could be provided in the proof of the total amount of "good God does" with all of that money collected---TAX FREE-----all over the world, ALREADY.

I'll be offering up my address for those readers who want to buy a ticket to that show-----send me your hard earned money---or even some of what you steal---and I'll use it for "good stuff".

Yeah! Rock it to sock it to em---Go God Go----

------------------------------------------------------
* The USA borrows this amount (most likely more) to bring "freedom to Iraq" from China---a Communist Nation--- that truly does have separation of church and state. Hard as I have tried I just cannot fathom the stupidity of such a fact.

Actually on a serious note, if those readers out there are truly tired of all of this religiosity---then with an organized effort, moving to pass very simple laws to TAX THE INCOME OF ALL RELIGIONS will most likely make them very happy to leave the rest of us alone.

They/god can either "put up" or "shut up".
MONEY TALKS-------WITH A LOUD VOICE-----------

Thanks for your time

When did religion equal morals?

Words are Important -

I could not agree with you more on your post.

Religion does not inspire morals. Religion divides people and causes strife. That is why the repiglickins want it so much.

I think we need to make a couple of changes, the government is not allowed to tell people what church to go to, therefore the church should not be allowed to say ANYTHING about who to vote for.

I don't think its possible for a moral church to exist. It's not in their mission statement. They say "our's is the correct and only way to heaven" some may be more tolerant than others, that's fine for them. None of them should have any say whatsoever in our politics. It's called separation of church and state. It means you can believe what you want, but keep it out of government.

Including marriage.

SnowWolf July 28th, 2008 2:43 pm -- "Seperation of Church and State simply means no State sponsored religion (IE; Church of England) thats ALL"

But the U.S. does have a state-sponsored religion. It's called The Corporate Church of Unfettered Capitalism and its god is Mammon. Furthermore, you'd damn well better show up for worship regularly and on time -- unless you're a high priest, that is, in which case you need only hang around the alter as long as necessary to receive the collection plate.

On second thought, it might better be argued that, in this case, the "church" sponsors the state. I guess the founders and framers of the constitution overlooked the possibility of court-awarded "corporate personhood" when they were considering the institutional separation issue -- not that constitutional provisions matter much anyhow under current circumstances.

Barry Lynn is about as much a "Reverend" as Hugh Hefner is a gynocologist. In Barry Lynn's perfect world the "religion problem" would be solved in the same manner as Eichmann proposed to solve "the Jewish problem" by its extermination.

Just because there are religious hypocrites and con game operators does not mean that their religion is wrong, it means that their hypocrisy is wrong.

As far as recruiting efforts, nobody is about to compel anyone to accepot any faith because, see, Barry, faith is all about personal free will choice not compulsion. Those who imagine that they will use federal dollars to swell their ranks will soon enough discover that those whom they think to recruit are just as slick as thier manipulatiors ever hoped to be.

Hey Barry, next time you get sick or are threatened with a life ending disease, be sure you go to Atheist General Hospital or Skeptic Memorial Clinic.

Should you become homeless, a street person, or drug dependent (yeah, most of them never thought it would happen to them either!) I want you to go as quickly as your feet can carry you to the Agnostic Mission or the Free Thinkers Army where they will feed, clothe, and counsel you--if you can find such.

There are a lot of very sincere and sacrificial folks who reach out to others less fortunate than themselves for no other reason than the love of God animating their efforts. They often achieve economies of scale and efficient operations unknbown to many government programs trying to do the same thing.

Barry Lynn is about as much a "Reverend" as Hugh Hefner is a gynocologist. In Barry Lynn's perfect world the
"religion problem" woulod be solvewd in the smae manner as Eichmann proposed to solve "the Jewish problem" by its extermination.

Just because there are religious hypocrites does not mean that thier religion is wrong, it means that thier hypocrisy is wrong. Hey Barry, next time you get sick or are threatened with a lifwe ending disease, be sure you go to Atheist General Hospital or Skeptic Memorial Clinic. Should you becomwe homeless or a street person (yeah, most of them nevge4r thought it would happen to them either) I want you to go as q

It dawned on me last week that the human race is doomed.

Right now we have to deal with the implications of the industrial revolution (i.e., labor, capitalism, pollution, resource depletion, etc.), the nuclear revolution, the information revolution, and now the genetic revolution.

Yet we still haven't worked out the implications of the agricultural revolution. If we had, we wouldn't still be debating the merits of one Bronze Age sky god over another.

And people are still optimistic enough to think that we can figure out all the crises facing us when we still can't escape the mental traps of organized, primarily monotheistic, religion. Stick a fork in us, 'cuz we're done.

Religion is the opiate of the masses.

There is no god. It's the same deal for everyone, but you're own your own. When you die it's over. Whatever "it" is -- to see who can die with the most assets... whatever.

Now get on with it.

if nobody had told me about (invaded me with) their respective religions, I would have no knowledge of them...that is as it should be...having been born, alone, with the same mental and physical equipment as others, it is my business to observe my surroundings and learn and grow through my experiences...my observations and learnings are equally valid with those of any other's...separation of church and state means I should be able to be a free member of the state yet be as free of religion as I was the day I was born...without having to adopt any of the religions my fellow men have made up, or being forced to live under laws based on the religious beliefs of others, beliefs I may or may not share...without even having to appear to have adopted them, which is how so many get over this hurdle...how odd to watch candidates spout religious dogma...clearly, it's not really popular in this country to be other than a Christian, whatever being Christian means...I bet Jesus, if he existed, would have let me openly enjoy pot along with my wine...would have understood it wasn't even his place to decide whether or not to 'let' me...we all have unalienable rights: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...here we are: my religion, my unalienable right of the pursuit of my own personal happiness, leads me to smoke pot, yours tells me not to...who decided yours was right (I actually know, I'm just trying to make a point about the horrific injustice that was done that day), and why do you get to use weapon-laden zealots to force yours upon me, up to and including violence\imprisonment, yet I'm wrong if I fight back? It isn't right, and you know it...no cute chuckles, please, about how we all know it's wrong, but, it's illegal, so get over it...I'm very serious...this law is wrong, and, please understand, this is just one of the many inherent problems with religious thinking...it thrives on the conversion\killing of others, and the accompanying need for ceremony\money\secrecy, even as it speaks of the opposite...don't even get me started on the arcane notion of religious proof...

Now if the First Commandment had been "Wash Your Hands", I might be able to take these desert religions more seriously.

I'm quite certain that I read that after the last election in which the evangelical vote played a huge role and many preacher's instructed their "flock" how to vote, Bush's "justice" department only sought prosecution for its tax exempt status against one church -- one run by a preacher that favored Kerry.

Unbelievable.

I think we should all start attending church, taking our digital tape recorders, and start demanding that they either be prosecuted or stop talking politics in their tax exempt buildings.

A true Christian knows that you can only "lead" people to share your religious views voluntarily, and not through governmental policies or installing certain "faith based" curriculumn in schools or humanitatian endeavors.

The Bushites have declared war on big government, but have instead made it the most oppressive operation we have seen in this country. In addition, this administration , though preaching constantly about high-minded behaviour, have been secretive about their actions to the point of being law breakers, and thumb their noses at our juducial and legislative bodies, which are supposed to represent the people.

One only hopes the American people will learn their lesson and will not fall for this line again, as it has been a great disaster for our country. It is questionable whether we will ever be able to regain our place in the world or if we are in a free fall that may be very hard to stop.

If we were truly a Christian nation, we would not be making the poor and middle class worse off, while adding greatly to the fortunes of the rich. Als, we would not have invaded a poor nation that was no threat to us for the benefit of a few warmongers, oil interests, and weapons makers.

SnowWolf July 28th, 2008 2:43 pm

Correct.

I noticed something funny. First of all, I am an agnostic. I hate all religion equally. However, I notice that many of the progs on common dreams and elsewhere(if not the entire left) doesn't have as harsh a view of Islam as of Christianity. In fact, they only speak of 'Muslims' as a race or people, when all Islam really is is a religious affiliation. Wonder why the double standard.

Massud "First of all, I am an agnostic. I hate all religion equally"

How do you, as an agnostic, hate religions?

That Constitution thing hanging up in Washington D.C. spells it out pretty clearly to me:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

What part of that doesn't make sense? We are free to do and express our religion; as well as our non-religion; and the government can't force one, or none, on us. I can handle that...

Religion and Politics, never has worked out well. Both wish to control, and remove wealth from the weak. I wish there was no religion/dogma in the world. Just a spiritual awaking to what bounty this world can give us, if we do not force it from the earth and each other. Reason and love, over power and greed. Less suffering and death. Its a lovely dream to have...

It's okay. Obama also supports giving government money to religious groups. So we can all relax and have FAITH that a CHANGE is coming (unless we bother to face reality).

QBALDSMOOVE: Right on!

POET: The problem is that the concept of God is not universally understood or respected, and many churches divide TO conquer, often in literal bloodthirsty ways. What we need is a God-dess of INCLUSION, a concept that is so universal ALL tribes put down their arms to join hands... as far as I am concerned, a polytheistic Gestalt works a lot better than the angry, jealous god that precipitates the sickening belief that war done in 'god's' name is somehow holy, righteous, and worth implementing. THAT has cost thousands, perhaps millions of lives. Many who follow religions are by nature given to following rules and authority figures, and this ilk works extremely well in nations that move towards fascism, or arrive there in all but name.

Siouxrose___ I agree that following some religion can cause people to chuck their brains and listen to some supposed authority figure, which can turn out badly. However, just because the right-wing evangelicals highjacked the Republican party and pretended their ideas had anything to do with Gods plan for us does not mean all religious folk believe that.

We seem to have leaders who are living in the old testament where God did have a more violent nature, but Christians have a different pattern to follow with the teaching of Jesus in the new testament. We are setting ourselves up as being far superior to the Muslims, while acting as if we believe in the same violent behaviour we accuse them of.

It is a mistake to blame true Christians for the fiasco of the last eight years as it was a misguided group that got themselves in power and used religion as cover for some very serious actions that cost our country a tremendous loss of lives, families, wealth, and respect.

Also, if all God means to people is a concept instead of an actual being, then religion has no meaning at all and we may as well forget the whole thing, which is a bleak prospect. I believe that if people could agree that our complete world and everything on it and above it is working together in an amazing unity instead of trying to get some narrow minded theory forced on all of us, life could be better for everyone.

For instance, I believe evolution and creation can be looked at as working togrther, not in opposition. Some believe, wrongly, that using the stars to help figure out events and people`s behaviour is somehow evil when it can actually be helpful when combined with one`s religious views.

I think that the separation of church and state problem is difficult for people to negotiate for two main reasons: 1. People have a hard time distinguishing between personal spirituality and public policy, and 2. Universal, exclusionary religions demand one way of looking at the world, and a secular society demands an acceptance of pluralism - many ways of looking at the world.

1. People have a hard time distinguishing between personal spirituality and public policy.

The abortion debate is an excellent example of how this dynamic works. Legal abortion opponents see abortion as a sin -- a sin committed by an individual which is an individual offense against God. (For those of you about to discuss corporate sinfulness, just hold off for a while, it's not part of this argument.) They believe that they can create a law, which is an element of civil society, that will prevent people from committing a sin, which is a personal spiritual act. For this reason, trying to talk to abortion opponents who see abortion as a sin from a perspective of public policy -- public policy for maximizing the health and well-being of all women and children -- is missing the point. They aren't concerned about all women and children, they are concerned about the individual spiritual choices of each woman.

I think that this emphasis on individual spiritual choice is influenced by the evangelical protestant conversion structure that was popularized here in America. All of the emphasis is on the moment of conversion, the ritual by which an individual is saved. Evangelical protestantism does not imagine this moment as a ritual, however -- it is an existential moment in which the soul, alone with God, makes a choice to forsake sin and be saved. After this moment, the individual no longer carries the burden of his or her individual sins. The importance of this moment to our discussion is that it is a spiritual moment, and the individual is alone.

In order to support this model of conversion, religious services are organized around creating an emotional environment in which the individual can have a spiritual moment. Sermons, singing, and doctrine focus on getting people to that decision. Once people have been 'saved,' they are spiritually safe -- they may face hardships in life, but they will never more be in peril of individual spiritual death.

From this perspective, public policy is difficult to comprehend -- if only everyone were 'saved,' wouldn't all public policy work itself out? Looking at public policy from the macro level, looking at trends in demographics and planning for the health of the whole community is not what life is about, because it is distanced from the individual, spiritual choice.

Now I don't mean to denigrate the very good work many religious institutions do to help people. I'm just pointing out structures of thought that make it hard for people to think about public policy. I personally have no argument with discussion religion in public, with planning public policy to account for religions, or for individual public servants to depend on their personal religions to help them make good decisions, or inspire them to do good. What I have a problem with is violating the separation between government-sponsored public policy and specific religious institutions.

2. Universal, exclusionary religions demand one way of looking at the world, and a secular society demands an acceptance of pluralism - many ways of looking at the world.

Religions which claim to be both universal and exclusionary by definition demand that there is only one way to look at the world -- their way. They claim that the religion applies to everyone and that there is no other religion that is effective. For people who accept this claim, it is difficult to conceive of a secular society in which it is acceptable for there to be many ways to look at the world. Their religion tells them that these other ways are false, and so they think that the only way to do good government is to enforce their way of looking at the world.

I fervently believe that for American society to function well, we must have a secular, pluralistic approach to public policy. This involves belief on all parts as well -- we must believe that there are standards for life and behavior that we can hold in common regardless of our religion. I think that most human beings do believe this, but many interpret this general belief as being derived from the authority of religion. I don't think that shared standards for life and behavior must be derived from any specific religion, and this distinguishes me from many religious people. I think that when we, as human beings, gather together to form a society that will support us as well as restrict us, we have to agree on some basic common standards, and this is a practical response to the needs of a human society.

Religion has caused more pain and misery, at the behest of the rich and powerful, than any other ideological trend in history. I always get a chuckle when Catholics, for example, rail against the left (Socialists and Communists, etc.) for being "anti-God" or for their percieved errors. Being a member of the left (I'm a long-time member/leader of the CPUSA & a activist/leader with the USW), and having lived my entire life involved in struggles for justice, against racism, war, for worker's rights, etc., I'm certainly aware of the many errors, mistakes, even outright violations of democractic norms that have occured by revolutionaries in pursuit of their goals. We must, and do, work overtime to correct those errors, always in the pursuit of justice for working/poor folks. I'm always amazed at the levels of ignorance, or even plain avoidance of, religious zealouts in relation to their own ideological movement's history of violence and suppression in behalf of their (magical?) goals, almost always on behalf of the highest bidders.

In the first place, the ROMAN Catholic Church was the official church of the Roman slave empire, used to suppress the wider, babarian masses in Europe and beyond. The nortorious, vicious Inquisition was carried out at the behest of the newly emerging Spanish ruling class, to help consolodate the rule of that class. The Crusades were a series of violent ideological miliary campaigns of plunder, against middle eastern peoples. They also served the ruling classes of that time by getting rid of excess populace and keeping poor peoples' minds off their horrible day-to-day existance at home. An estimated 100,000 to 200,000 unforunate folks were sadistically murdered, burned to death, hung, drowned, etc., by religious zealots during the middle ages as witches, heretics, etc. Priests and ministers blessed the slave trade and rode along with the colonial masters on their way to the New World, ready and able to bless not only the slave trade but the suppression and war of extinction against the native peoples there. For literally thousands of years, Christian practice, based on books written by writters representing the emerging fuedal classes, were used to suppress women, poor and working people, as well aa to promote racism. The church was central to the suppression of knowledge, murdering Galeleo, as well as many thousands more, for daring to pursue truth and knowledge.

Not to be out done, Islam and other "mainstream religions" have their own history of suppression of their peoples and violence. While a much more tolerant religion during the middle ages, fundamentalist Islam is certainly as zealous in its pursuit of ignorance and death, especially in today's world. While the Bush regime, and its servants in the media, rail against Al Quieda and the Taliban, they conveniently leave out the central part played by the US government and the CIA in creating them. The attacks by these miscreants against the moderate, socialist oriented, democratic government of Afganistan were carried out by the largest CIA operation in history. These nut cases were recruited, armed, even tranported and housed/fed, by our own tax dollars, ultimately at the service of the oil corporations.

I could go on and on, even citing the role of the normally benine Buddists in supporting the murderous Japanese Imperial regime, allied with the Nazis in its vicious campaigns against the peoples of Asia, or the role of "Hitler's Pope" during WWII in aiding that vicious regime's extermenation of Jews, Communists, unionists and others, or the role of Zionism today in Israel's violent, racist occupation of Arab lands, or even the role of the David Korresh's of our nation in creating a climate of hatred and vilence, but, you get the idea.

The defeat of the Bush/McCain/GOP ultra-right wing, corporate, extreme religious cabal can begin to usher in a new age of rationalism and real human values. Let's hope (and work like hell for it!!

unionguy,

So your idea would be to amend the Constitution to repeal any and all spiritual references, rescind any biblical context, and expunge religion from any government function entirely?

That's a tall order, considering that freedom is the cornerstone of progressive thought. How can we be viewed as inclusive when you propose to exclude belief systems that are embraced by over half the population?

I try to look at things from various perspectives, and while I can't argue with some of your points, but I really can't see a complete removal of that which you rail against simply because of the rights of those who embrace theology. A believer cannot and should not force a theology on others, nor should a non-believer negate a theology from others ~ it's a matter of negotiating a peaceful coexistence.

History does not provide a positive scorecard, but perhaps mutual understanding and respect builds that path.

So the churches want a piece of the action? Go for it. The entry fee should be that they get to pay taxes on all their assets and incomes.

KERNEL: I, too, see a congruence between evolution AND a higher plan... but to give religion a pass when IT was a huge catalyst in getting a dangerous anti-Christ like Bush into office is too easy, friend. Can you look away from imbeciles like General Boykin who sees his role in the Middle East as a 13 year old boy's contest between who's God is bigger? Or how about the Christian evangelizing OF the US air force? With its "rods for gods" and other insanity... or just the idea of air bombs, so cosmetic, no blood on one's shoes and such. RELIGION has played a HUGE role in this conflict, and no, the suicide bombers get no free pass on team B, nor the radical Jews/zionists on team C... ALL are complicit. ALL act against the meaning of God, apart from a god that supports war, and there is a name for that entity, it's MARS! Hardly what Jesus would do.

VERACITY: Nice post... I'd ammend it to experiencing SACRED PRESENCE... or the presence of that which is sacred, if beyond our descriptive vocabularies.

TEXT GURU: Wise and excellent explanation; however it does not account for how someone like Bush--who the evangelical community accepts has been saved--can forge policies of such unlimited destruction (bombs, war, even the sinister economics of disaster capitalism that equally ruins lives) can win their favor? Is their idea of expunging sin a convenient means of giving a bastard a free pass to make hell for everyone now living? THIS is the disconnect that if diagnosed in a single patient would qualify as an advanced case of schizophrenia!

UNION GUY: I agree that religions' hands are VERY dirty; but I think your numbers are off. I've read that MILLIONS were killed in witch burnings as these spanned several centuries. Since I believe in reincarnation, it seems to me those that now espouse torture and invent their own rationals for barbaric practices ARE the return of that same Inquisition and its enablers. Some souls never learn!

I'm an agnostic, and I don't hate any religions. I simply find them all to be creations of human beings who are desparate for pat answers. My son has a sticker on his guitar case that says, "Militant agnostic. I don't know and you don't either."

Religion is used as an excuse for all kinds of horrific acts, but religion is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is probably human nature. People can be kind or mean, they can be generous or they can be selfish. Those who wish to oppress or control others find lots of justification, and it seems that religion is a perfect vehicle. I think the choices people make are often motivated by fear or lack thereof.

Fear makes people want obtain control. Fear creates religion because humans often fear the unknown. Fear generates the drive for power because people like Bush, Cheney, and the other neocons need to continually widen their control over their own lives. Anything that they can't understand, agree with, or defeat threatens them personally. When gaining some power doesn't alleviate their fears, they work to include more and more and more aspects of their lives - and everyone else's lives - into their range of control. It's really not about money because at a certain point, more money becomes useless.

Money represents power. The love of money is the root of all evil, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It all goes together.

Anyone who has any doubts about his or her religion can reinforce those beliefs by ensuring that as many people as possible believe the same thing. If everyone believes it, well, then, it must be true! Thus, proselytizing, inquisitions, denigration of those who believe differently or not at all, and missionary work are rampant in most societies. Especially those in which the specific dogmas are hard to believe upon examination.

When the fearful join together to become a powerful group, it's pretty scary for the rest of us. When people are contented and able to accept the uncertain nature of life, they don't need to push their religion, politics, or lifestyles on others. One of the most wonderful people I've ever known (disclaimer, I am married to this man) has absolutely no desire to control anyone, including his family or friends. He is highly contented, self-fulfilled, and unafraid.

We live in a fear-based culture, so it's not too surprising that religion, the wealthy and powerful, and politics are joining forces. That does not make it a good thing, and I sincerly hope a reversal is in order.

Siouxrose:
Thank you. I always appreciate reading your posts and receiving your commentary. In fact, that's one reason I post, hoping you'll read and comment!

I wish I could answer your question, "how someone like Bush–who the evangelical community accepts has been saved–can forge policies of such unlimited destruction (bombs, war, even the sinister economics of disaster capitalism that equally ruins lives) can win their favor?" I was raised as a Southern Baptist in the heart of the evangelical community, and I was certainly taught that the universal nature of Jesus' love should elicit love in believers, and values such as hospitality, charity, and acceptance. I was taught that lying, deception, and exploitation were contrary to the laws of God. I'm stumped, and I wish I could explain what is happening. I think Chris Hedges' analysis of the use of war as "a force that gives us meaning" and the symbolic union of America with Christianity so that American civil religion becomes nearly indistinguishable from the teachings of Jesus - to evangelicals - goes a long way to explain it; but to me it's still unsatisfying. I continually ask myself, "How can the people I grew up with, who I know to be kind, compassionate, and caring, condone the actions of someone like Bush?"

First Amendment Rights Should Be Extended

Government influences our entire culture by subsidizing religious and secular ideologies of its choosing, either directly or with tax breaks — granting tax-free status to churches and foundations (letting them become tax shelters); requiring teaching of "social science" in schools for teachers, and funding various groups thereby making them political. [The "wall of separation" (Thomas Jefferson's phrase!) should be extended to prohibit ALL these forms of influence by ANY level of government!] Left wingers tend to want the government to support United Nations programs of indoctrination along with tax-free foundations, public school teaching of "social science," "comparative religion", programs of "counseling", etc. Right wingers tend to support "bringing God into the classroom" (traditional God, not "New Age" gods!), "teaching of values" (defined by them) and "promoting traditional values" by the government in general! NONE of these things is Constitutional. There should be NO indoctrination of ANY KIND in public schools. NO SUBSIDIES for any kind of institution ("value-related" or not!). NO tax breaks for any organization. Tax breaks lead to power for those organizations the government grants them to.

TextGuru July 29th, 2008 9:38 am

The only point in the Constitution is that the government shall not establish a state religion.

Other than that, we were left to work it out as best we could. But no law says you can't have prayer in classrooms or Wiccan incantations for that matter.

Some suggest religion is based in fear. I'd suggest its based in love. All religion is based on faith. The Pope hasn't spoken directly to God so I'd say my opinion is as good as his.

The beauty of our country is that no one limits whatever you want to worship....or not as the case may be.

Siouxrose___Sometimes I support religion and Christianity in posts here because there are too many in my view that have a wrong idea of what some religion can do for people.

Yes, I agree totally that our leaders show no sign of trying to follow what Jesus taught us and am amazed that so many folks are fooled by saintly rhetoric.

My feeling is that God made us a great planet to live on, and people have messed it up since time began. If we could just live and let live, there is no reason why everyone might have a chance at a decent life. However, human nature seems to spoil what could be because of the drive for power and control that so called leaders display and religion is used as a cover for misdeeds.

TO all who mentioned it. The statements "I am agnostic" and "I hate all religions equally" were remarks exclusive of eachother. I did not say "I am an agnostic, therefore I hate all religions equally."
See the diff?

IMHO religion as practiced today is how many souls on the planet attempt to experience the ineffable Presence. They haven't remembered yet as souls that they don't need an external authority spouting inflexible dogma to point their way back to Source, our common heritage.

Religions at their most benign, seem to me to be a kind of stepping stone for some souls searching for meaning to their existence. When seized upon by malevolent forces such as we have seen in the grotesque vagaries of the Religious Right, they can seem a kind of cosmic nightmare of huge proportions.

I am not religious myself but I do not feel superior to people who seem to want or need that sense of common cause that their religious affiliation gives them. It has the potential to become a force for good, or something twisted and ugly, but that is the doing of opportunists and zealots who use people's lack of confidence in their own internal spiritual compass to their own refarious ends. In benevolent hands, for example, the Liberation theology adherents in South America, it can be a force for positive change and actually support the evolution of consciousness.

We must be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

That said, I don't want religion of any sort trying to dominate government.

It appears that Human beings feel compelled to create the belief in a Supreme Being in most cases out of ignorance of the beliefs of others.

They are taught at an early age in most cultures of this Supreme Being ,or Spiritual World(s), or any number of possibilities and often combinations of possibilities.

The reality is that the existence of a Supreme Being, or Divine realm, or any combination of these thoughts are impossible to prove, and when closely examined individually most often present contradictions in the reality and plausibility and are often dispelled by science, or history or both.

But they linger, and change with each passing civilization and for many scholars offer areas of study in which to specialize in and make a decent living.

I was visiting the Greek Islands while a member of the US Military in the seventies, and one of my companions purchased two "blobs" of "Gold" (which later turned out to be electroplated aluminum) which were sold under the pretense that they were the remains of "two Gold coins which had been placed over the eyes of an ancient Greek "Marine" (we were young US Marine OCS grads) as payment to the "boatman at the river Styx"............before he was cremated in the funeral pyre. Several of us later commented that the "boatman had been cheated of those coins"---but since we had all grown up in missionary schools we could laugh at another's notions of an afterlife, and back then we could laugh at our own tribal ancestors notions of an afterlife as well.

In those days we had a joke that ran among us---being US Marines we lived in close quarters whether at sea or not. AS the joke goes: the Ships Captain announces that he had some bad news and some good news to tell, The bad news was that the ship was ordered to stay at sea for another six months; the good news was that everyone could have a change of "underwear"---Smith you change with Jones; Johnson you change with Jackson etc ,etc.

Now all of these years later, and many years of study, I believe as many others that Religion is a very personal thing; and like underwear should be kept private and not shared . It should never be forced or state sanctioned whether blatant or subtle as with the present situation in the United States.

And when some "showman" on TV asks for money, to "spread the gospel"; ask for a bank statement to show that he or she has spent all of his or her own money to "spread the gospel" before you send them any of yours. If they do not believe their own words; why should you believe them.

And like "Native Son", I would be skeptical about a God that needs so much help especially with money.

TEXT GURU: Much appreciate the recognition. I promise I'll get back to you on this. I have an appointment this evening, and am short for time.

KERNEL: Please... when we speak of HUMAN NATURE we have to remember the belief systems that have conditioned it across the ages. The 7 sins ARE part of our make-up, but systems that push competition also foster greed & anger. In a JUST society these sins would be diminished as there would be no resistance in many peoples' psyche, no PAIN as a given that the trapped human being then rails against. The past 4 millennia have been under control of top-down, force-first, rules oriented societies for the most part that pitted black against white, Christian against Muslim or Jew, woman against man, etc. These ism divisions have broken us, wounded us ALL... the healing required calls for a vision that unifies and transcends our differences by recognizing that each is a facet of an intended human puzzle... all together fulfill the whole, and any missing facet diminishes its holistic workings.

Seperation of church and state????

Right now, this country needs believers and non-believers to unite.

All of us are standing by and watching as this congress allows this Presitdent to destroy the constitution.

Soon there will be no first amendment, then they will go after the 2nd amendment.

The patriot act is anything but Patriotic.
When will the church crowds wake up, there rights will be taken as well, its just a matter of time before they get in the way.

They have already butchered the 4th.

Come on , there are agents all over this country , commiting warrantless surviellance ,illeagl entry and confescation of property , and then slappling gag orders on Americans with threat of 5 years of jail time if they report these criminal acts.

We must stand united to SAVE THE CONSTITUTION. And right now we need everyone , God , Jesus, all of heavens angels and the devil himself to oust his son from office.

Yes, even the Devil himself can not exist without freedom of speech.

And folks there is no God if there is no Devil.
What would we need God for if the Devil did not exist?

America is in trouble, it will take all of us to save this country.

We our on the path of Natzi extremeism, warrantless surviellance with our technology will allow evil people to doctor evidence any time they want, there are no checks and ballances. They removed them by not needing a court ordered warrant approved by a judge.

Is the ACLU the only group representing Americans that have balls?

Shame on our legal system. Its time to get into gear, your future livelyhoods are at steak.
I don't think Hitlers Germany allowed multimillion dollar law suits.This is a Police state using the IAFF and community watch groups, and we all know it.

Is the legal community blind, can't they see that the country been hijacked right wing lunitic fringe fearmongering pro-corporate militry-oil interests.

Who will stop them if not the law and the Constitution?

Born Free Men

"OUR COUNTRY, was founded by human beings who believed in a Divine Creator of some distinction — that was the source of our INALIENABLE SOVEREIGN rights — out of which ALL else comes forth."

You manage to offend every human when you talk of rights given by God. What utter nonsense. Basic human rights are what we determine to be the best way to survive, and to help others survive, without being under the control of others.

Control seems to be the reason for the existence of religion.

And to those who say it is not possible to prove the existence of God, that's not the problem, the problem is that not one shred of evidence exists that points to the existence of any god. We made them all up.

Ed Graham

the state is made up OF humans...religion is made up BY humans...they are as separate as reality and fantasy...