" I will accept what Miftin hss observed first hand,"

I never doubted her accounts of jazz clubs and museums.

"Take Care bud."

See you.

Ok, I tend to agree with you on that. But that's being a bit hard headed on some subject matter, as some things are difficult to prove, as there are always two sides to a coin and some subject matter speaks for itself.

For example, I will accept what Miftin hss observed first hand, but it may be very difficut to 'prove' with other witnesess or printed directives written by the Cuban government. I think that you were being a bit obtuse and you lost the debate in my opinion, ___ and so what? Who really cares? I'm sure you don't. Life's too short to worry about such things. ___ It's been fun, Take Care bud.

"but it is rather obvious that the intent of the program was to "provide jobs", because that was the end result and the workers did good. "

I generally agree with the above statement. However, the question on the table had to do with whether FDR's or Cuba's program *guaranteed* jobs. Even if someone stated it as such, and there has yet to be any indication of any such statements, we would then have to look at the details of the statements, to say nothing of the actual ability of those entities stating the guarantee to deliver.

"Wonder which of us has the harder head?"

The current discussion on whether anyone guarantees jobs is a good illustration of the general issue of the main article. A tenet in critical thinking is one of Burden of Proof. This tenet states that those who claim something to be true are obliged to make a case that it is true. If in response to the claim, someone politely and simply asks for evidence of the claim, there is absolutely no problem on the part of the person asking.

IMNSHO, as things stand now, we have some people who ought to rethink their position on whether FDR or Cuba ever guaranteed jobs.

I never have read the legislation ~JAKE~, but it is rather obvious that the intent of the program was to "provide jobs", because that was the end result and the workers did good.

Yeah, we have come a-ways, been fun too. Wonder which of us has the harder head?

Dumbing the People Down Throughout History

Religion was the original 'dumbing down' tool of the ruling classes, combining threats of physical punishment with mystical promises. It worked partly because people did end up being better off if they followed the rules. People who didn't follow the rules got punished, proving to the gullible that their really was a just God or gods. The priests of official theocracies had the power to create hell on earth for any who deviated from the official interpretation. The powers-that-be thus assumed the position of God or gods. It's only logical that sometimes they claimed to be gods.

The rituals of religion involve what are now know to be standard brain-washing and indoctrination techniques. Intense fear, repitition, one-way communication (top down) from the priesthood to the 'believers'. These techniques are used in our modern school system and in our mass media. There are many new 'priesthoods': intellectual, cultural, 'educational', political, etc. They all have one thing in common, the need to brain-wash and indoctrinate. It should be no wonder that techniques of 'dumbing people down', morally as well as intellectually, are prevalent throughout all fields of our totalitarian culture. Monopoly Capitalism inevitably leads all countries in this direction, which is back towards the dark ages. \

Until people understand that ALL forms of indoctrination are bad, we won't be able to fight it very well. Kids in school need to learn to think for themselves. But this means that we should insist that there should be NO required indoctrination of any kind. It is not the state's business, and the ruling class always dominates the state until we get much better democracy. This can only come through mass participation at all levels and through much better 'checks and balances.' The German Social Democratic Party in the 19th Century demanded that war and peace be determined by popular vote! Patriotic militia men in 1776 in Pennsylvania managed to get an amendment to that state's constitution which postponed all laws from going into effect until the next legislative session, but in the meantime, the people had a chance to study the bill and vote it down if they didn't like it!

Amendments to the Constitution like these could give us an actually working democratic republic, but the people will have to fight for them. They will probably even have to fight just to force the government to follow the Constitution at all!

"And the WPA was initiated to guarantee jobs."

Why do you think this is true? It would be so stated in the legislation.

"It is the official policy of the Cuban government to guarantee a job to anyone who wants one."

*sigh*

Simply restating your thesis does not support the veracity of your thesis. They should have taught you that in Library School. Now, *why* do you believe that in Cuba the government guarantees you a job? You cite no facts to support your position.

"This is funny ~JAKE~ I've never seen you lose so badly as this one. It's really funny. MIFTIN here has kicked your ass."

The question is there for you too Kem. Thank you for the other kind words. We sure have come a long way you and I.

And the WPA was initiated to guarantee jobs. The program provided jobs for more than eight and a half million Americans.

This is funny ~JAKE~ I've never seen you lose so badly as this one. It's really funny. MIFTIN here has kicked your ass.

You know I agree with you on some issues and your not a bad guy. But sometimes you get wound up and pole vault off into La-la Land and don't know when or how to quit. The score is: __ Drum roll..........Miftin (100) ....... Jake (6)......... LOL.

It is the official policy of the Cuban government to guarantee a job to anyone who wants one. It is also the official policy of the Cuban government to guarantee appropriate housing, free health care from cradle to grave, and free education through graduate school or professional school. And their municipal, provincial and national elections are much more democratic and transparent than are elections in the United States. This isn't just me "thinking" this, you clown, this is actually the way it is. High school kids run the polling stations and count the votes, and they take their civic responsibilities quite seriously. It is not necessary to be a member of the Cuban Communist Party to run for office, and in fact in most cases, if you are a Cuban Communist Party member you are prohibited from running for office on this count. Many members of the Cuban National Assembly are not even members of the Cuban Communist Party, they are simply elected officials who act as representatives voluntarily AND AREN'T EVEN PAID A SALARY TO DO SO. They maintain their regular jobs and act as members of local, provincial and national governments ON A COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY BASIS.

"What exactly are you trying to prove, anyway?"

*You* need to prove that "Cuba gaurantees jobs". You said it was so.

" "all you seem to be saying is "No, you're wrong because I think so." "

You have lost all focus, any that you may have had. You are wrong because there are no facts to back up your claim that Cuba or FDR "guaranteed jobs".

"You're a clown."

Only *you* are responsible for that unfortunate post just prior to this one. LOL!!!

Now will there be any evidence forthcoming from you concerning how Cuba guarantees jobs? Or are you quite done now?

What exactly are you trying to prove, anyway? That Rush Limbaugh is right about everything and everyone on CD is wrong about everything? I mean, really, man. What is your problem, anyway? People lay out statistics, reasoned analysis, first-hand experience, point-by-point rebuttals, and all you seem to be saying is "No, you're wrong because I think so." You're a clown.

"Uh, gee I dunno why I think that,"

Thought so. So don't say it next time. And get off the booze.

Uh, gee I dunno why I think that, shit my God yer smart Jake you just demolish all my arguments wit jus' a coupla keyboard strokes fuck why am I even tryin' to debate you, um, ah gee, you know, shit my face is meltin' from the pressure yer puttin' on me here Jake my god yer smart.

"Actually, all Cubans are guaranteed jobs"

Why do you think that?

"Ok ~JAKE~ what 'exactly' is it, that you deem to be the reason the WPA project was not productive, or was a waste of taxpayer's money?"

I cite the areas of criticism I cited previously. It was just a side issue, I am more interested in whether those programs constituted "guaranteed" jobs. I don't see where that is true.

Ok ~JAKE~ what 'exactly' is it, that you deem to be the reason the WPA project was not productive, or was a waste of taxpayer's money? Or that you are unsure if it was or was not beneficial. How about a hundred or so examples to nullify the accurate stats I gave on the project? How about 10 or 20 specific examples that have been proven to be somewhat credible.?

Do you understand my point? Why are you arguing this and the economic situation in Cuba, which you obviously know very little if anything about? ___ You bored?

I did say I was sure there was some corruption and graft with the WPA program BTW. I'm sure the program was not perfect, I'm also sure that it was very beneficial when one consideres the economic situation of the times.

Just keep your eyes on the little swinging medallion. Actually, all Cubans are guaranteed jobs, and the government does its best to match the person's aptitude, intelligence level, training and education, etc...with the specific job. Even Cuban convicts are guaranteed jobs, and they wear street clothing and nobody knows they sleep in a prison every night except the supervisor at the nickel mine or soft drink factory.

"Well this is a dirty, thankless job, but somebody's got to do it. "

And who will that be?

"There are lots of guaranteed jobs in this society, clown. You just have to be born into the right families. "

Those aren't jobs. The "jobs" that you speak of require no work, and are essentially gifts.

You changed the subject. We were talking about jobs, where one is paid for work, guaranteed by government. Cuba and FDR neber did that.

Well this is a dirty, thankless job, but somebody's got to do it.

There are lots of guaranteed jobs in this society, clown. You just have to be born into the right families. That's even true at this local level, where if you carry the right name, you can, for all intents and purposes, get away with robbery, rape and murder in addition to have a guaranteed job.

"Yet you deride ~RSJ~ for only stating ONE example and then continue your rather childish argument. "

Because we have no way of knowing if the one example was a good representation of the whole program. Yes Kem, it's about thinking correctly. Sample size = one, too small.

" there are hundreds of thousands of examples "

While that may be true, how many examples of bridges or roads to nowhere, or substandard artworks? This question is still unanswered. In this forum at least. There are I am sure historians and economists who have looked into it in some depth. I posted a link describing the problems with the programs, you didn't address any of that.

And we still have the issue as to who provided a "guarantee" concerning jobs.

"This person completely discounts all my primary source material as "anecdotal" "

It *was* anecdotal.

"then he points us to a propaganda hit-piece from the New York times. "

It was also anecdotal, and made the opposite point that you made. Do you *now* see the problem with anecdotes? And of course you failed to state why you thought the article was a "hit piece". The reporter was lying? Just because it doesn't mesh with what you think I guess.

" What a clown."

Classy.

" I never applied for the so-called economic stimulus check. "

There was no application, Dum Dum. All you had to do was file an '07 return.

It is mildly troubling to see your type of "thinking" ~JAKE~. Sometimes It's like you are from another planet, or perhaps your brain cells seperated at some time and never have properly realigned. Sometimes you make a lot of sense, not here on this THINKING thread bud.

For example ~RSJ~ just wrote a perfectly sensible blog and gave ONE
very good example of what the WPA accompliised, (at a very low cost
to the taxayers over an eight year time frame) I would add. Yet you deride ~RSJ~ for only stating ONE example and then continue your rather childish argument.

Damn ~JAKE~ there are hundreds of thousands of examples and it is not sensible to list every single one of them when making a good point. Ya know, Congloium makes thousands of floor tiles, you don't have to see all of them to see what they look like. ONE sample and choices of colors is satisfactory.

It's rather ironic this tread is called "We are losing the ability to think." This person completely discounts all my primary source material as "anecdotal" then he points us to a propaganda hit-piece from the New York times. What a clown.

Hey clown, I never applied for the so-called economic stimulus check. Screw Bush and his stimulus check and the same to you, clown.

Sorry for the confusion:

"Still and all, McCain calls SS a "disgrace" while he continues to cash checks from them. "

I wonder how many here, after decrying the economic stimulus program as bogus, went ahead and cashed the checks anyway.

There.

"it's people as I experienced them, it's museums as I experienced them,..."

*Your* experience is what's called anecdotal. I should not have to tell you the problems with relying on such stories. We can simply find one to negate it such aas here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/world/americas/06havana.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

"You say RSJ's comments concerning the cost versus the benefits, or cost effectiveness of FDR's WPA program have to be "PROVEN" they were beneficial for everyone."

The idea that they were benificial to everyone is far from settled.

"FDR's program saved the nation and it was very cost effective,"

I am sure a proper analysis would take several volumes.

"How to Lie with Statistics"

Since you cited one single example of what you thought was a worthwhile project in response to my statement that it is important to evaluate the usefulness og the New Deal programs in total, I would say that it is *you* who might need this book.

"Still and all, McCain calls SS a "disgrace" while he continues to cash checks from them. "

"Just a few blocks from my house there's a train station built during the Depression which is still functioning to get people to and from work, which, I think even you'd agree, is good for the economy."

How in the world can this one example be seen to represent the program as a whole?

"Kem has produced some excellent facts "

Yes, but nowhere can we discern the actual usefulness of individual projects, and it is ignorant or disengenuous to suggest that the New Deal programs were universally considered positive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#Conflicting_interpretation_of_the_New_Deal_economic_policies

I wonder how many here, after decrying the economic stimulus program as bogus, went ahead and cashed the checks anyway.

"That's your issue since you're trying to reframe the debate on your terms, a habit with you."

Actually, my habit is to merely ask people to support statements they make. It was *you* who brought up the idea that government can guarentee jobs.

"The original issue was that you denied any government could provide a guaranteed job. You said 'no.' "

And this was in response to *you* who brought up the idea that government can guarentee jobs.

"That proposition on your part has been amply refuted — governments can and do provide guaranteed employment, usually to the betterment of the society at large."

Nonsense. In the first place, nowhere did you or anyone else articulate the terms of the alleged guarantees in the examples given of Cuba and FDR. All government activity is predicated on the activity of the private sector. Thus if anyone is guarenteeing jobs it's ordinary citizens with no say in the matter.

jakenewton [August 3rd, 2008 5:03 pm] wrote: 'John McCain.' Does not 'depend on' the Social Security check.

Well, Jake, I have known several people personally who 'depend on' SS but still think it's evil socialism, but that would cut no mustard with you, since you don't know them. Still and all, McCain calls SS a "disgrace" while he continues to cash checks from them. So does Bob Novak, BTW, who's is also no friend to 'socialist' government programs such as SS. If you'd like more examples, I'll be glad to provide them.

jakenewton [August 3rd, 2008 5:03 pm] wrote: I'm sorry, but to say the above you *must* produce some evidence that is true. Yes some of the projects were for useful infrastructure but not all. And the fact remains that the money for those projects came from taxpayers.

I'm sorry for you. Just a few blocks from my house there's a train station built during the Depression which is still functioning to get people to and from work, which, I think even you'd agree, is good for the economy. Not only that, but it's a beautiful example of Art Deco architecture. The taxpayers made an investment in something with a solid long-term return. Instead of sitting around behind your computer sifting through stale statistics which are often forged anyway (read "How to Lie with Statistics"**), you should get out into the world more and experience what real life is like. Better yet, talk to some people who lived through the Great Depression. It might open your eyes. Beyond that, Kem has produced some excellent facts and a good summation of how FDR's New Deal programs helped the country. I suggest you read more history of the era to get a full picture.

**How to Lie with Statistics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

jakenewton [August 3rd, 2008 5:03 pm] wrote: '07 per capita income in Cuba is about $4500.

That's meaningless. It depends on how much it costs to live in a country. For example, Norwegians are taxed at a much higher rate than Americans but they spend substantially less for housing, health care, education and other necessities, so they actually have a standard of living equal to the United States.

jakenewton [August 3rd, 2008 5:03 pm] wrote: The issue is whether anyone can 'guarantee' a job, not whether some government projects make economic sense or whether the people in Cuba are happy despite their poverty.

That's your issue since you're trying to reframe the debate on your terms, a habit with you. The original issue was that you denied any government could provide a guaranteed job. You said 'no.' That proposition on your part has been amply refuted -- governments can and do provide guaranteed employment, usually to the betterment of the society at large.

The money to build almost all of the Intersate system came from taxpayer money JAKE. The money for our moon missions came from taxpayer money. The WPA project came from taxpayer money also, as you stated. ___ So what? It was taxes well spent for the most part. I'm sure there was some theft and graft that occurred, but the WPA was a fine program, it made jobs and helped to maintain the overall stability of our nation in a big way. It also helped to rebuild small business and boosted the economy. We came out of a depression and were well out of it prior to Dec of 1941.

I'll offer a little info ~JAKE~. During the eight year period of FDR's WPA, 8,500,000 people were employed. The total cost of the project was $11 billion.

Here are a few of the accomplishments. 651,000 miles of highways and roads were built.

124,031 bridges were built, and or decaying, unsafe bridges were repaired and re-opened.

125,110 public buildngs,schools, post offices, health dept facilities, fire stations, etc, were constructed, and most are still in use.

8,192 state and national parks, with facilites, were prepared and opened and 853 airports were constructed. Many millions of acres of state and federal land and forests were cleaned up and fire access roads laid out and opened. Want more info JAKE? Check it out. THINK you can do that? I'm goin to bed.

I hope you're a female ~MIFTIN~ I think I just fell in love with you. If you're male, I like you.

~JAKE~, what in hell is wrong with you? You are far from being stupid. You say RSJ's comments concerning the cost versus the benefits, or cost effectiveness of FDR's WPA program have to be "PROVEN" they were beneficial for everyone. That's a real crazy comment bud, being 'OBTUSE' on your part is the correct word.

Do you have any idea whatsoever what was built during those depression years by the men and wemon who worked for that social function? Do you realize that many millions were out of work due to no fault of their own? There were no, or very very few jobs and there was no money to purchase food or other essentials. Anarchy and a total breakdown of our government was a very distinct possibility.

FDR's program saved the nation and it was very cost effective, that is readily apparant for any who know the history of those years. It's benefits do not have to be "proven". The good of that program was and still is self evident, the results speak for themselves, ___ no proof is necessary ~JAKE~. You are out of your element by attempting to argue this thread.

Not exactly. I could sit here for three hours composing a very long and detailed description of Cuba, it's people as I experienced them, it's museums as I experienced them, it's schools as I experienced them, it's botanical gardens as I experienced them, it's radio stations as I experienced them, it's churches as I experienced them, it's restaurants as I experienced them, it's local government officials as I experienced them, it's jazz clubs as I experienced them, it's health clinics as I experienced them, it's street vendors as I experienced them, it's libraries as I experienced them, it's community woman's support center as I experienced it, and many other things I experienced in Cuba--and this guy would just shoot back with something like: "Castro is a dictator." or "They live in poverty." He essentially says nothing, and he's certainly not trying to discuss anything with anyone.

That was very condescending, miftin. But I would agree with you it's best for most of you to ignore jake.

Not because he says "nothing", but because he's just too different. You're not going anywhere by discussing stuff with someone who doesn't share your basic ideological grounds. In the end, it's going to be nothing more but "nah-ah/yah-ah".

"This person is best ignored."

Translation: I am very unsure about addressing the issues raised by "this person". LOL!!!

You're right. This person is best ignored. Twenty years from now he's still going to be saying the same things--which is essentially nothing.

"John McCain."

Does not "depend on" the Social Security check.

"The investment by the taxpayers was marginal compared to the return — bridges, roads, railroad terminals, dams, etc. built during the Depression have paid for themselves many times over and were used by rich and poor alike."

I'm sorry, but to say the above you *must* produce some evidence that is true. Yes some of the projects were for useful infrastructure but not all. And the fact remains that the money for those projects came from taxpayers.

'07 per capita income in Cuba is about $4500.

http://siakhenn.tripod.com/capita.html

The issue is whether anyone can "guarantee" a job, not whether some government projects make economic sense or whether the people in Cuba are happy despite their poverty.

jakenewton [August 1st, 2008 8:31 pm] wrote: And they live [Cubans], on average, in a rather low state of poverty.

They are not worse off than people in some of the poorer parts of this country, Appalachia, for example, except here we have no national health care and not much of a social safety net left. In any case, the Cuban people were worse off when Fulgencio Batista ran the Cuban govenment on behalf of American capitalists and gangsters.

jakenewton [August 1st, 2008 8:31 pm] wrote: Name one please.

John McCain. He just called Social Security a "disgrace" but he doesn't return his monthly checks.

jakenewton [August 1st, 2008 8:31 pm] wrote: And how long did that last? And Roosevelt's program was dependent upon the taxes of others who produced what the market demanded. Unsustainable, he couldn't possibly guarantee that forever, there is no free lunch.

You show a fundamental ignorance of how FDR's Depression-era work programs operated. It was no 'free lunch.' The investment by the taxpayers was marginal compared to the return -- bridges, roads, railroad terminals, dams, etc. built during the Depression have paid for themselves many times over and were used by rich and poor alike. Many are still in use today. Compare that to the Pentagon's DIVAD anti-aircraft weapon that was scrapped unused after many millions were spent on its development -- a total waste of taxpayer money, and that's only one small example. It was unnecessary to guarantee jobs after the Depression ended with WWII and in the post-war period when the US was the most robust economy in the world. Interestingly, that's when we had the strongest unions, the highest tax rate on the wealthy and corporations, and the largest middle-class, many of them returning ex-servicemen and woman able to attend college thanks to the 'socialistic' GI Bill that was opposed by conservative Republicans in Congress at the time, just as the current update of the bill was opposed by much of the right-wing.

I understand that tourists are very welcome in Cuba and if an American has a serious problem with eyesight and it was not treatable here, they can recieve healing treatment in Cuban hospitals at zero cost. There are no escorts ~JAKE~. It's not North Korea, and they don't sieze your laptop either, like they might here in our free country at an airport check in and search. I THINK that new development is really sad. This is America, ___ or it used to be.

I traveled everywhere I wanted in Havana with no escort. It was quite different than Zurich, Switzerland, where I was prevented from walking into a bank because I wasn't wearing a $2000 suit.

"It's true that I assumed without proof you you were a free-enterpriser type, jake."

I salute you for admitting so. As it is, I am, but only somewhat, there are areas that need regulation. I usually "start" with the free enterprise model regarding whatever issue and go from there. The devil is in the details.

"Why do so many who have vacationed or visited there for extended periods of time say that poverty is not an issue in Cuba? "

Are visitors allowed to freely travel wherever they please with no escort?

~JAKE~ you keep referring to "poverty" in Cuba. Why do so many who have vacationed or visited there for extended periods of time say that poverty is not an issue in Cuba?

Some could easily say that Americans are suffering from poverty if they visited Aroostook county, Maine, or sections of Appalacia, etc. There are (millions) of homeless people in America and millions of children and adults go hungry every day and millions cannot recieve decent health care because of the high cost and lack of health insurance.

Millions more Americans have no elctrical power or heat, because they have not been able to pay their utility bills. Are Americans suffering from poverty? I've seen poverty in Mexico, S-E Asia, the Phillipines, Japan, Korea, Africa and England and here in the United States.

None of those American social problems are as near as prevelant in Cuba from all that I've read on the subject.

It's true that I assumed without proof you were a free-enterpriser type, jake. You did say that no one can guarantee a job and those who tried ended up being poor like in Cuba. The conclusion one draws from this is that getting help from the government like Cubans do, leads to what Cubans experience, that is, poverty.

I've never visited Cuba on my own so I can't tell if things are better than is usually said.

Kem, I am not particularly in support of the Cuba embargo. I just doubt that it has very much to do with poverty there, given the countries that do trade there.

No, the U.S. is not compelled to trade with anyone ~JAKE~. We Americans are compelled to NOT trade with Cuba. ___ Why?

The U.S. is not compelled to have diplomatic relation with anyone either, but we do have diplomatic relations with most contries, even some of those who are deemed to be our enemies.

In my opinion, whatever the reasons were that the U.S. is not communicating with the Cuban government, enough time has paassed to attempt to settle old grudges. It's a childish fued and arrogant pride is the deterrant and it's the childish pride of the U.S. government's leaders which stands out. In less words, ___ "It's stupid bullshit".

That's what I THINK. We're supposed to THINK are we not?

"A fool cannot be refuted by argument but only by facts."

Argument is predicated on facts.

"they didn't see much of any poverty there and said that by a vast majority, the Cuban citizens were quite satisfied with their way of life."

That may be true but the economic statistics regarding Cuba are widely available.

"But when he argues solely on the basis of his own ignorance, and practically forces everyone else into the position of either giving him kindergarten-level lessons or talking over his head, it become rather annoying."

And of course it would remain fro *you* to demonstrate that this statement is true.

"But then, that's the reason he's here anyway, to annoy "liberals."

I *am* a liberal, in the classic sense. This is not to be confised with socialist, of course.

"So the best thing is to just ignore him, her, or it."

That never happens with me. Thank you for your "contribution".

"Pointing to Haiti is not stupid at all, whether US-controlled or not."

Wrong. It was irrelevent to the point made that Castro guaranteed jobs.

"To say that helping people find jobs makes them poor"

Did someone say that?

"Also, is Cuba being poor a consequence of its system or a consequence of the US enforcing an embargo on it. "

The US is not compelled to trade with anyone. Other countries do trade with Cuba.

"For someone who calls for free enterprise and unfettered capitalism,"

Did someone say that? Can you say Straw Man?

I was in Cuba in 2003 and the people have it very good when compared to neighboring countries where the IMF, the World Bank, and Chicago School economics have held sway. Except for a few years here and there, the U.S. Marines have been controlling Haiti since its inception. I have no problem with jakenewton's right-wing ideology; to encounter that same ideology all I need do is leave my house and be among TV watchers. But when he argues solely on the basis of his own ignorance, and practically forces everyone else into the position of either giving him kindergarten-level lessons or talking over his head, it become rather annoying. But then, that's the reason he's here anyway, to annoy "liberals." So the best thing is to just ignore him, her, or it. This guy practically begs the statement: A fool cannot be refuted by argument but only by facts. Personally, I don't feel any real obligation to spend 45 minutes trying to give this moron a history lesson every time he opens his mouth.

Strange, this discussion about Cuba. Not too long ago there was an Article about Cuba here and several bloggers, most from Canada, stated that they had visited or vacationed in Cuba during the last couple of years, some traveled all around the country and they didn't see much of any poverty there and said that by a vast majority, the Cuban citizens were quite satisfied with their way of life.

Now this here article is about rational thinking. Am I thinking rationally about what I just posted as to my opinions, or my views about Cuba?

It's strange to me, because there are several other opposite viewpoints posted here about Cuba and the citizens. Now Cuba does not have a great deal of trade commodities, no major industrial manufacturing, or weapons manufacturing that I'm aware of, and most naturally the citizens would likely not have the same opportunities for individual wealth that many other nations may enjoy.

And since Cuba has been attacked militarily at least once and attempts to assinate their president have occurred a few times, they have to put a good deal of their GNP into national defense, which likely hurts their overall economy.

Personally, I don't favor Communism, but that's their business and I don't understand why the U.S. will not allow trade with Cuba, or have diplomatic relations with them. After all, they are close neighbors and they allow us to maintain a large military base on their land. ___ And a "modern, well maintained" ultra-secure prison.

"littlehorn [August 1st, 2008 2:30 am], good point "

Thank you RSJ. To tell you the truth I was just in the process of writing an entry about this, so there was a lot of thinking done on the subject before I wrote the above comment.

"You're "stupid" miftin, and I will explain why. When the subject was that Castro "guarantees" jobs, I pointed to the level of poverty there to show why such a thing was a failure. You stupidly responded by saying that Haiti is poor, which was stupid because it had no relevence to the point made about Castro. You then stupidly claimed that Haiti is controlled by the US, which was stupid because it isn't true and also because you failed to say why it is true"

Pointing to Haiti is not stupid at all, whether US-controlled or not.

Haiti is capitalist and people are poor there as well. I believe you are not unacquainted with US interventions abroad, in countries like Chile.

To say that helping people find jobs makes them poor is to vow allegiance to the neo-liberalism of Milton Friedman. If this is where you stand, I suggest you stop wasting your time with us. If not, then I suggest you do some research. You'll find that Milton Friedman created mass poverty too and capitalism strangles the poor.

Also, is Cuba being poor a consequence of its system or a consequence of the US enforcing an embargo on it. For someone who calls for free enterprise and unfettered capitalism, you have quite a strange view of how to let others try their own system. You don't. You impose yours and hurt and kill those who don't agree.

There is no doubt that if a system left alone truly does not work, then everyone would reject it. Instead, because the US has this embargo, no one can tell what is what. Perhaps it would work, perhaps not.

In any case, I find it ironic that Cuba is hated for its widespread poverty when the same happened to Chile 35 years ago.

But then, the rich were free, contrary to the situation in Cuba. And so I guess it was okay, right jake ?

I guess Namaste, or whoever he calls himself these days, will also refuse to address the issues being discussed. Typical.

You're "stupid" miftin, and I will explain why. When the subject was that Castro "guarantees" jobs, I pointed to the level of poverty there to show why such a thing was a failure. You stupidly responded by saying that Haiti is poor, which was stupid because it had no relevence to the point made about Castro. You then stupidly claimed that Haiti is controlled by the US, which was stupid because it isn't true and also because you failed to say why it is true

miftin, you are stupid.

"U.S. controlled Haiti "

Total bullshit.

Hey screwball, if you want to see real poverty, go to U.S. controlled Haiti where they eat dirt and get paid a penny for every baseball they make for use in your national past time.

"The Cuban government can guarantee you a job. They can also guarantee you an education and free health care and a roof over your head and healthy produce."

And they live, on average, in a rather low state of poverty.

"other neocons, not necessarily homicidal, have the same glaring contradictions buzzing in their brains — i.e.: they depend on their Social Security checks but, at the same time, want to end SS because they think it's evil socialism."

Name one please.

"As to your point "And No one can 'guarentee' a job, no one," an American president already did that — Franklin D. Roosevelt. Read the history of the CCC, WPA and other New Deal projects that guaranteed a job to anyone who wanted to work."

And how long did that last? And Roosevelt's program was dependent upon the taxes of others who produced what the market demanded. Unsustainable, he couldn't possibly guarantee that forever, there is no free lunch.

"(BTW, don't take your history from World Net Daily or Free Republic — they tend to be a little biased.)"

I've never once looked at either of those sites. As you know, I spend all my spare time on Common Dreams.

"Simply look at the courses that have replaced them and that will tell you that it wasn't liberals but indeed it was radical leftists. Thats an empirical fact."

I have a degree in economics. There is an ideological monopoly in economics departments across the country, and it is dominated by "free market" economists of all stripes whose ideas have little relation to the real world. If you want an idea of what I'm talking about look at what conditions would have to exist for the "free market" or "libertarian" theories to work as they're constructed, then compare the conditions to the reality we live in. It's ridiculous nonsense that cannot be, and rarely is, logically defended. Yet it is, the engine behind the polices of governments, propaganda networks and corporations around the world. Does David Horowitz or anyone else who talks about leftists on campuses say anything? No, because feminist African American studies professors OBVIOUSLY carry more weight and have a larger impact on the world than economics & business professors…

"A multicultural education seems to be what they are trying to be impose now. Its a terrible trend."

I've never understood this. I have been brought up in America, I've been fed nothing but American culture and I disagree with most of it (freedom of speech, as long as elites aren't threatened, and the arts and music are a few of the bright spots I'm proud of as an American). Why is it so threatening to give people ideas from different cultures and to let them logically figure it out? Here we are talking about critical thinking and giving people different ideas to run through their heads is a "terrible trend"? Maybe if American's understood people outside their borders they wouldn't be so damn gullible or easily lead. Maybe they wouldn't be so caviler about stealing people's resources, bombing them and destroying their democracies and cultures.

You might disagree, but I think that closing Americans off from other cultures is one of the big reasons why we're at this point. We think we and our culture have all the answers and we have the most ridiculous polices and government in the world. Few policies that we enact and push for are even remotely logically defendable, yet we think it's a system that should be exported with a one size fits all mentality.

One personal story I was bowled over by: After college I moved out here to Cali, got a job at a company with other entry level people my own age roughly, about five years ago. I was reading "Confederacy of Dunces" (funniest book ever) and the person next to me asked what it was. I told him, and he said, "wow, you're smart". I asked what he meant and he explained, I crap you not, that I was smart simply because I was reading and didn't have to for a class. He got promoted shortly there after, had a nice car and thought he was hot $hit, because he's an American and you are what you own, no matter how little what you own really matters.

Uh, jakenewton [August 1st, 2008 7:26 am], I said that Adkisson was obviously crazy -- if you had read further you would have found that I only mentioned him to show that other neocons, not necessarily homicidal, have the same glaring contradictions buzzing in their brains -- i.e.: they depend on their Social Security checks but, at the same time, want to end SS because they think it's evil socialism.

As to your point "And No one can 'guarentee' a job, no one," an American president already did that -- Franklin D. Roosevelt. Read the history of the CCC, WPA and other New Deal projects that guaranteed a job to anyone who wanted to work. (BTW, don't take your history from World Net Daily or Free Republic -- they tend to be a little biased.)

And the hand rolled cigars.

The Cuban government can guarantee you a job. They can also guarantee you an education and free health care and a roof over your head and healthy produce. Down in Havana they have spontaneous street parties and their medical students have no experience in treating gun shot victims. Cuban ice cream is the best in the world and so are their ballet companies, and the Havana music conservatory probably contains within its walls more musical talent than is contained in half the states of the U.S. combined.

"Jim Adkisson, the killer, was angry because he couldn't find a job and his food stamps were being cut off and who did he blame — liberals. Yet it was the conservative Republicans he admired who have failed to act to guarantee him a job and want to end the food stamp program. "

Where to start, you try to apply logic to a csae involving an agitated violent man where logic may not apply. And No one can "guarentee" a job, no one.

KEM PATRICK [July 31st, 2008 8:17 pm], don't worry, Kem, just take this magic blue pill and your worries are over! Comes with a free wheelbarrow for carting around your new 'male enhancement'! Let a 'certain part of the male body' enter the room before the rest of you gets in the door! "Wow, I didn't know you owned a horse -- oh, it's Stan!"

And don't worry about all that fancy, schmancy elitist 'thinking' stuff -- most of your body's blood will be 'gettin' busy' elsewhere. At least, that's the Brave New World Order plan. ;)

littlehorn [August 1st, 2008 2:30 am], good point -- if you think you're already the greatest, why bother to strive to get better? Sadly, some liberals are partly to blame in this area -- when teachers hand out awards to every member of the class so as not to affect a student's self-esteem, why bother to try and win an award on merit or excellence?

Good quote by Silber -- in every field this kind of narrow 'tunnel-vision' thinking goes on, even among highly intelligent people, but it's particularly devastating in the political realm. Whereas in the past, the radical rightist could find few materials to support his boneheaded ideas or misreading of history, today a well-funded alternative media universe exists to serve his every bigotry and suspicion. And the target of blame has now shifted from blacks, commies, Jews or whomever to the more amorphous and less well-defined 'liberal' or 'terrorist' -- perfect for the purposes of the plutocratic neocons in power since either label is an empty vessel that the individual can easily fill with his own personal hatreds and bile. Without exaggeration, you could say that right-wingers these days -- at least those who immerse themselves in the Rush Limbaugh/Fox News culture -- are really 'aliens in America.'

As we've seen in the shootings at the Unitarian church in Knoxville, TN, most of the right-wingers have ceased making sense even within their own frames of definition. Jim Adkisson, the killer, was angry because he couldn't find a job and his food stamps were being cut off and who did he blame -- liberals. Yet it was the conservative Republicans he admired who have failed to act to guarantee him a job and want to end the food stamp program. Adkisson is, of course, obviously crazy, but many others in the radical right I've met have similar glaring contradictions buzzing in their brains.

F. Scott Fitzgerald said that a first-rate intelligence can contain two contradictory views in their head and still function, but what about those who aren't too bright? I guess we're finding out.

I just want to paste a quote from an essay by Arthur Silber:

"Brownback's article, and all those who offer similar kinds of "arguments," illustrate this point with considerable force. Whenever a preexisting and preselected narrative assumes primary importance in this way, the longer one clings to the preferred story, the stupider one becomes. This is why the truth or falsity of the stories we tell is so critical, and why our methodology matters so much. If a story that is central to our view of ourselves fails to comport with the facts, and if we refuse to give up or even question the story, this necessitates that we block ourselves off from more and more information that might "undermine" that story, to use Brownback's terminology. Rather than eagerly seeking out further facts and trying to find out if a given story remains accurate or needs to be significantly revised (and sometimes even jettisoned altogether), we will lower our heads, narrow the scope of our inquiry, and progressively restrict the kind of data we permit ourselves to examine and even acknowledge. As time goes on, our intellectual curiosity steadily decreases. We won't want certain facts and information, because we might have to wonder whether particular cherished beliefs are correct."

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2007/06/government-commentariat-and-blogosphere.html

I couldn't agree more with Tundratony's comment on the importance of the willingness to think, read, reason, and articulate.

"I would argue that there are no bigger issues than the ability and WILLINGNESS to think, read, reason and articulate. [...] Ability and intellectual capacity are very important ingredients but without the willingness and intellectual curiosity to exercise critical thinking, we're all sunk, ability notwithstanding. The willingness and curiosity I write about is disturbingly un-encouraged in public schools and even at the University level."

I don't agree that ability and intellectual capacity are very important. To the contrary, these are absolutely not important. They'll influence the time needed to arrive at a conclusion with all the facts at hand. If you have the will and curiosity to think things through, what does it matter if it takes 5 minutes or 30 ?

No I really don't agree with that point.

Everyone's talking about how schools don't teach well. But teachers are Americans too. This is a problem of self-righteousness and it's general. You're told this is the greatest nation in the world, the best government etc. Why bother then ?

Oh-oh.

Read your spam, Kem -- 8 inches -- uh, 8 inches unerect.

We are? What size is below average?

People want to have powerful orgasms. They aren't interested in having powerful ideas. Just walk into any corporate convenience store and glance at the magazine rack. If the magazine title isn't "Big Breasted Beauties" it's "Well Hung Hunks." No wonder people can't think. Women are walking around feeling inadequate about their breasts and men are walking around wondering if their penis is large enough.

"If you tell me what group I belong to, I'll say the same thing about it. "

Alrighty then.

"I'm still not sure what's bothering you, however. "

Only that it took some proding to get you to suggest that you are somewhat equal opportunity on how intelligence is distributed within various political philosophies.

"The Republicans have become very adept at manipulating gullible voters into supporting policies that are harmful to those same voters; and the Democrats are continuing to learn from the Republicans in this regard. "

Add the Progressives, Liberitarians, etc.

"That's one reason it's important to face the fact that a certain portion of the population is innately unintelligent "

Yup.

jakenewton July 30th, 2008 8:17 am: You wrote:

"Feel free to substiturte "progressive" or whatever you would call the group you belong to for the term 'Democratic party'."

If you tell me what group I belong to, I'll say the same thing about it. One of the points many readers have been making is that our society would be better off if more people tried to think for themselves instead of following some particular political or social group. As Bob Dylan said, "Don't follow leaders."

"It seemed obvious to me that your intent was to "not quite" say that the population of Bush supporters and the lowest intellegence quadrant were the same."

It may have seemed obvious to you, but as I've already said, your inference is incorrect. I wanted readers to think about the relation between the two groups (I called my post "Food for thought"). If I had wanted to say that all Bush supporters were stupid, I would have done so explicitly. But as I indicated, I do believe that at this point, most of Bush's supporters are either thoughtless, morally corrupt, or just plain stupid, and given the damage that this administration has done to our country and to the world, I have no qualms about saying so publicly.

"I think the idea that 'I'm in the group with all the smart people' is extremely dubious."

Once again, you're arguing against statements I didn't make. I already indicated that I believe that some of Bush's supporters are "smart" (in fact, a lot smarter than most Democratic politicians). I'm still not sure what's bothering you, however. The statement "I'm in the group with all the smart people" is basically just another way of saying "I'm smart". Do I think I'm smart? In some ways, yes I do. In other ways, I think I'm not so smart. But why would readers of this forum care about that? And what about you: do you think you're smart? Is that relevant to the discussion? This seems like pointless bickering.

The Republicans have become very adept at manipulating gullible voters into supporting policies that are harmful to those same voters; and the Democrats are continuing to learn from the Republicans in this regard. Anyone who tries to oppose this manipulative strategy while insisting that everyone is equally capable of independent, critical thinking is bound to fail. That's one reason it's important to face the fact that a certain portion of the population is innately unintelligent (and that's true for any meaningful definition of "intelligent"). To suppress this recognition because it offends one's personal sensibilities is to willfully weaken one's power to oppose the forces of greed and selfishness in our society, merely for the sake of politeness or political correctness.

"I often do say something to that effect about the Democratic party. "

Feel free to substiturte "progressive" or whatever you would call the group you belong to for the term "Democratic party".

"I'm really not sure what bothers you about what I wrote. Perhaps you can be more explicit."

It seemed obvious to me that your intent was to "not quite" say that the population of Bush supporters and the lowest intellegence quadrant were the same. I think the idea that "I'm in the group with all the smart people" is extremely dubious. Intelligence is only one component in those things that lead to one's political philosophy.

"Perhaps my mentioning IQ distributions gave you the impression that I'm contemptuous of people of low intelligence. "

I glossed over that, I am familiar with how IQ and other similar things are distributed. As to your point that lack of intellegence is not inconsequetial, we agree.

Oh I can think all right. My father has dementia. If he is not asleep he just sits and smiles.

I can see how things are and I can't come to terms with it. I can't sleep. I don't smile much.

Which of us would you rather be?

I find it extremely interesting that this article has elicited so many responses while other articles on seemingly "bigger issues" do not. I would argue that there are no bigger issues than the ability and WILLINGNESS to think, read, reason and articulate. Without these Global Warming, tax cuts, illegal wars, energy costs, hell even psycho fascist government death camps will cut us down while the general populace plucks out a fresh bugger and wolfs down a triple scoop ice cream cone while watching the boob tube. Ability and intellectual capacity are very important ingredients but without the willingness and intellectual curiosity to exercise critical thinking, we're all sunk, ability notwithstanding. The willingness and curiosity I write about is disturbingly un-encouraged in public schools and even at the University level. I received a BA from the University of Alaska Fairbanks, an arguably "no-name" school and was lucky enough to have that intellectual curiosity fostered and encouraged but that was thanks to remarkably few excellent professors. By and large in the US, real education is often absent, laughed at or at worst, discouraged.

All the same, it is a pleasant surprise to see this article get such a response; it gives me some hope.

jakenewton July 29th, 2008 7:54 pm wrote: "Yeah yeah yeah, it wasn't a perfect example, but you seemingly admit that you came pretty close. Why would you even go there?"

I "went there" because the discussion concerns the pervasive lack of critical thinking skills and its detrimental effect on this country's politics, so the fact that the more thoughtless citizens among us are easily manipulated by disingenuous politicians is relevant to the discussion.

Many people seem to consider it a breach of etiquette to even recognize the fact that a large number of people simply lack the capacity for critical thinking. While this insistence that "we're all created equal" may be well-intentioned, I believe that it has destructive consequences, some of which were mentioned by other readers. To me, the essence of democracy is that we all should have equal rights, and be treated with equal respect, despite the inequalities in our abilities and circumstances.

"One could say the same about those in the Democratic party ... Again, why would you go down that road?"

I often do say something to that effect about the Democratic party. You shouldn't conclude that, because I'm critical of the Bush administration and its supporters, I support the Democratic party. Actually, I have a hard time deciding which major party is more deserving of contempt. It's like trying to decide who deserves more disdain: a murderous drug-pusher or his whore?

Finally, I want to say that I'm really not sure what bothers you about what I wrote. Perhaps you can be more explicit. Perhaps my mentioning IQ distributions gave you the impression that I'm contemptuous of people of low intelligence. If that's the case, I can assure you that I have infinitely more respect for people of limited intelligence who are honest and kind than I do for highly intelligent people who are dishonest and selfish. But that doesn't mean that lack of intelligence is inconsequential.

"Not quite. It would be a logical fallacy if it had been stated as a logical implication, but is wasn't."

Yeah yeah yeah, it wasn't a perfect example, but you seemingly admit that you came pretty close. Why would you even go there?

"There's no doubt that many of those who lack critical thinking skills are easily manipulated by the crooks in the Bush administration into supporting the administration's policies, thereby keeping Bush's approval rating from getting too close to zero. "

One could say the same about those in the Democratic party, especially at the municipal level where in nearly every large city the poorly educated underclass rally for the left and the Democrats, year after year, towards the same lousy corrupted governments.

Again, why would you go down that road?

Note to metal regarding Orwell-

Politics and the English Language: http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/go-politics.html

Thomas More [July 29th, 2008 2:53 pm] wrote: "They have indeed been replaced, but not by right wingers. Simply look at the courses that have replaced them and that will tell you that it wasn't liberals but indeed it was radical leftists. Thats an empirical fact."

Could you please cite who these "radical leftists" are who so influenced public education at the K-to-12 levels and what precisely they did? My friends who teach public high school inform me that under Bush's Secs. of Education, first Rod Paige and later Margaret Spellings, they were infomed by memo and formal letter that the new policy is to always 'teach to the test' to the exclusion of other 'extraneous' material, such as Plato, Mozart or Latin. Consequently, music, art, social studies, philosophy and language classes were cut from the curriculum. Even class discussions outside the realm of the test questions were severely discouraged. I am not arguing that there are not wingnuts on the left in academia, but the mentality that has eliminated liberal arts from our public schools can indisputably be laid at the door of the neocon right-wingers. I would also wonder what you define as a 'muliticultural education.'

KEM PATRICK [July 29th, 2008 2:33 pm], I don't know how anyone could argue that reading isn't important to understanding and reasoning, even if you don't have a lengthy formal education.

Tom Paine, Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain and many other great Americans didn't have much in the way of a formal education, but they were lifelong readers and great writers. How can you effectively put your ideas across if you can't write well, and how can you write well if you can't -- or don't -- read?

now seriously..
many read, but fail to comprehend.

It never ceases to amaze me how 10 people , of "average" intelligence , can read the same article, and come away with 10 completely differing and even opposite interpretations of what was just read.

Many readers simply read,see what they want and do not see what they dis-agree with.

"Actually, the teaching of the philosophies of Plato (a Greek) and Schopenhauer (a German); the music of Mozart (an Austrian); and the Latin language are the very definition of a multicultural education, and they have all been eradicated from the public school curriculum by the rabid right-wing in favor of teaching a single dumbed-down test. Although I agree with some of your points, you can't hold liberals responsible for this public school failure."

RSJ July 29th, 2008 11:21 am

Actually thats what a classical education is. What used to be taught for a liberal arts degree.

They have indeed been replaced, but not by right wingers. Simply look at the courses that have replaced them and that will tell you that it wasn't liberals but indeed it was radical leftists. Thats an empirical fact.

A multicultural education seems to be what they are trying to be impose now. Its a terrible trend.

..................................................
The ability to read and comprehend would have to be the most important skill anyone could have. Everything flows from it.

Its of more importance than speaking English well. With the ability to read you can learn to speak better.

Without these two skills you are destined for poverty.

hey yous makin fun of us common folk? Using all them big long words like intelegence and critical?..

i'll have you know we was talkin fine till you big shots wit all your fancy words tried confusing us...

so shut up now we's fixin to see who is gonna keep them arabs and ragheads from killin us cuase we are free, an they hate that.

just let the president and his gang take care of all that world stuff an we can keep being the best.
america love it or leave it

(editors note...a great deal of effort was required to get the gramar and spelling, up to US educational standards)

You got it ~MARK~. Those two silly posts ~VERACITY~ wrote are mumbo -jumbo. ~Veracity, aka ~Presence Namaste~, etc, he uses any of several code names here at Common Dreams.

You see ~MARK~ that person likes to give me lessons for all to read, and often attempts to discredit ANYTHING I may write here on a variety of threads for some personal reason and I do believe the primary reason is because he agrees with ~MIMICcS~ about the global warming issue and as they both are deniers of that and I strongly argue the issue with both of them, they wish to over time have enough others believe that I'm a ignorant fool. ___ They often team up here.

As soon as I posted a comment here that "reading" was very important, ~MIMICcS~ came right on and explained that reading was not all that important, reasoning was what is importnt he/she said, NOT reading.

Well, if I'm ignorant about a subject, I cannot "sensibly reason" anything about it, until I become educated on the subject. Therefore, unless I'm a student in a school studying the subject, one option for me is to read books to become educated. That option would apply to anyone.

I cannot, nor should I or any trust everything that we may read, so I read all I can from those authors who have the necessary credentials to write about it and then think about what I've learned and reason it out. I read the pros and the cons about issues of importance.

The reason I wrote my first post here, was because I believe our society, and our next generations by a large majority, no longer read, they watch television. The majority don't think, as the author of this article correctly states.

And many who do read here at Common Dreams, have a reading comprehension disability, or are neo-con trolls who are just obtuse adn attemp tto cnfuse issues and create dissention here. Some read, but fail to understand what's been written. ~Verocity~ and ~MIMI~ are two who obviously have that problem, OR, they are closet trolls. One or the other, I'm not sure which.

The comment by Recycle1 about her HS boyfriend made me laugh out loud. The remark about moral depravity is at the crux of the matter as well.

When I have more time to digest the column, the comments AND breakfast, I'll chime in again.

Moral Majority is neither. Even if it is defunct.

jakenewton July 28th, 2008 9:58 pm wrote:

'About 25% of the U.S. population have IQs below 90 (that's roughly 75 million people). Recall that Bush's approval rating tends to bottom out at about 23%.'

A perfect example of logical fallacy. No critical thinking whiz here."

Not quite. It would be a logical fallacy if it had been stated as a logical implication, but is wasn't.

There's no doubt that many of those who lack critical thinking skills are easily manipulated by the crooks in the Bush administration into supporting the administration's policies, thereby keeping Bush's approval rating from getting too close to zero. Another component of Bush's support base consists of smart crooks like Karl Rove. But I think the former group accounts for the lion's share of Bush's support base, and so there is some correlation between the two figures.

dablackanarch July 29th, 2008 3:50 am

Dear Dablackanarch:

You are a father that really adores his child. You can look in to the heart of the matter with empathy, and understanding. The anger is good and do not let anyone tell you different. Anger teaches us to be alive and to question our anger. To question is good.

My father once told me if I would learn how to read there wouldn't be a thing in this world that I could not do. He was right.

For years people kept telling me that I you can't to do this or you can't do that …or that trying to do that is impossible. Wrong! If you never try, you will never know. I only politely listen to others now and I do what I think is best. Hey! I am still upright and at the plow. If I had of listen to dem dare peeps..I would surely not be here today.

Do not hold the poor spelling or punctuation against others. The talent is there but because of a poor missed education, the skills are not. Just being able to read will cure some of this.
So hang in there and keep after your daughter. They hear our voices long after we are gone. Make your voice one of encouragement. Let her know how you feel. Yes, this is very hard for a parent to let down their guard in front of their child. My Pop did.

He had only an eight-grade education. He had to quit school to shine shoes and sell newspapers to help his Russian-Jewish immigrant family survive. But he was the smartest, sweetest, and kindest man I ever knew. If I had not had him for a role model, I would have believed that all men were born with wicked hearts.

Doom n Gloom [July 28th, 2008 2:07 pm] and miftin [July 28th, 2008 2:50 pm], anyone who has ever been involved in a peace organization, third party or even a neighborhood watch group knows the truth of what you wrote. Such gangs of people tend to devolve into either a flock of automatons dominated by a power-hungry egotist or a useless gaggle held hostage to the stupidest, loudest and most narrow-minded members in the room, generally a very small minority, but they almost always seem to embody those three qualities simultaneously. Eventually, in the latter case, the group renders itself ineffective by catering to the demands of the SLMNM faction. The most commonly-heard phrase at these dismal affairs is "Let's hold another meeting to decide that!" so nothing ever gets done. Interaction with such bands of humanity at some point rots the brain, as the smarter folks are beholden to constantly explain to the dumber ones why such a thing is necessary or why, logically, a certain result is inevitable from a certain action they've proposed. Not only is such an exercise exhausting, but the smarter ones start speaking and writing in terms that the ignorati can understand -- no polysyllabic words, short and simple phrases, no compound sentences, no complex concepts, no new ideas.

This is not an argument for elitism, but for improving our education to the point where the average four-year college graduate of today has the same basic knowledge of the average high school grad of 50 years ago, and those who don't at least have the grace and good sense to shut up and learn.

Of course, having a lowest-common-denominator dumbnocracy rather than an enlightened democracy is good for profits and votes, and for stifling meaningful dissent, as the elitists who run our mass media, our corporations and our government have discovered. The only thing they apparently didn't count on is that low-paid, dumbed-down populations don't function well as high-end innovators and consumers, which has brought us to our current state of economic decline. The Corpo/Political Elite have been trying to pull off the balancing act of educating someone just enough to run the machinery of the Plutocracy without garnering enough sense to rock the boat, but that isn't working even in the 'soft' Maoist despotism of China -- the Chinese are demanding more freedom and democracy along with their slightly improving wages.

NMlib [July 28th, 2008 3:45 pm], according to the teachers I've talked with, dumping Bush's asinine No Child Left Behind tests would be an excellent place to start our crawl up out of the pit of ignorance; eradication of the current 'corporate Christian fanatic' incarnation of the Republican Party would be another.

udaboodah2 [July 28th, 2008 2:57 pm] real education is subversive to the Plutocrats, which is why such ardent neocon Kneelers to the Throne as David Horowitz and Lynne Cheney desperately want to put a stop to it.

Gene Therapy [July 28th, 2008 2:31 pm], good point -- thanks for the quote.

nohick [July 28th, 2008 3:05 pm], it was baffling to hear the murderer's rationale for the shootings in Knoxville; one cable news story yesterday said he was upset his food stamps had been cut so he decided to kill the liberals at the local church. Talk about a lack of logical thinking...

ezeflyer [July 28th, 2008 3:28 pm], good point. As long as there's a buck in it, our elite 'Masters of the Universe' will continue to pour on the fertilizer to make the dimwits grow. Only now the profit margin has been reduced and even the dumbstruck are fuming, so they may have to move in different direction.

JBPM [July 28th, 2008 4:50 pm], I'm not surprised that some of your students didn't know that Jesus was Jewish and was preaching exclusively to Jews. (Read his disparaging comments regarding gentiles in the KJV of the New Testament.) Some of my 'Christopublican' email correspondents, who believe every word of the Bible emanated directly from the finger of God, also didn't know this fact, and some refused to believe it when informed. One who admitted Jesus was Jewish also claimed that he 'converted' to Christianity and rejected Judaism while hanging on the cross -- it said so in the Bible! I asked for chapter and verse for that extraordinary assertion and never heard from him again.

Referring to your other comment, at one time a recipient of a BA was expected to have a broad general knowledge of history, science, politics, etc. -- the 'fifty great books' liberal arts education promulgated by the University of Chicago and generally accepted nationally. Then you encounter an MBA from a 'name' university who's never heard of James Joyce, thinks the Scopes trial had to do with mouthwash, and that Sacco and Vanzetti was an Italian sportscar. These are the people running our government and our corporations these days, nearly as ignorant as those they diddle for profit.

joneden [July 28th, 2008 5:36 pm], I forget where I heard it, but some right-wing evangelical preacher frankly admitted that installing Intelligent Design in the classroom was the first step toward bringing in Creationism. Next would be to elevate unprovable 'faith' to the same level as scientifically-proven 'fact.'

jruebl [July 28th, 2008 6:02 pm], glad you're not a right-winger -- you just sound like one. Actually, the teaching of the philosophies of Plato (a Greek) and Schopenhauer (a German); the music of Mozart (an Austrian); and the Latin language are the very definition of a multicultural education, and they have all been eradicated from the public school curriculum by the rabid right-wing in favor of teaching a single dumbed-down test. Although I agree with some of your points, you can't hold liberals responsible for this public school failure.

On the bright side, a large majority of Americans from all walks of life loathe Junior as the Worst President in History and I've been seeing those 'countdown to Bush's last day in office' bumper stickers cropping up everywhere, so perhaps there's a slim, faint hope yet. Total economic disaster has that effect on a nation.

mind you they only take currency that folds.... not the kind that makes a sound when dropped!

Cocoaswann - same word can be used to describe my financial situation after the town, state and federal government rifle through my billfold.

To further that thought...the word of the day:
impecunious
\im-pih-KYOO-nee-uss\ adjective
Definition: having very little or no money usually habitually: penniless

Used in a sentence:
According to Barbara Ehrenreich's article "The Suicide Solution," the current housing crisis is leaving many Americans in an impecuious situation; thereby increasing their chances of considering suicide as a solution to their money problems.

The main reason that critical thinking/analysis is becoming a "lost art" is because those who are able to do so make much less satisfactory corporate slaves and mindless consumers.

That's the reason the republi-fascists want schools to focus on standardized testing and privatization: the corporate fascists can impose the "1984 limited thought/language" that jlocke123 mentions...

Fight the power!
CS

I was once summoned to the head corporate office of one of California's largest employers at the time -- a defense contractor. The "well suited" corporate executive was informed of the nature of the seminars I was teaching. He had me sit down in front of his big desk and ordered me to stop my work! His reasoning was that I and these seminars were "dangerous" as they got "people to think." He went on to say -- and I kid you not -- "If people around here start thinking, they'll lose their jobs!"

Isn't this the telling of the society we now experience?

I think we are losing our ability to make sence. anybody know how to translate that stuff. Sound like mumbo jumbo to me.