Subscribe to Common Dreams News Updates
Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
How Should We Respond To The Imploding Economy
Are We Facing Just Another Market Problem or A System Collapse?
Boston, July 25, 2008: The question we face in late July, as regulators seize two more banks, is: will we be engulfed by a further collapse in our economy or can the damage be contained, or, even turned around?
We know what goes up must come down but when will what's down go back up?
It isn't looking good---and, even now, the two presumptive major party presidential candidates are talking about everything but this deepening crisis. They are debating terrorists and Afghanistan and how to meander out of Iraq but not the reality that so many Americans are living with: a squeeze that is leaving so many of us broke, in deeper and deeper debt and disgusted. Until now, the doom and gloomsters were mostly to be found in the margins, in financial blogs or in the campaigns of Ron Paul, Ralph Nader or the Greens. The mainstream media has been looking the other way and mostly downplaying the unfolding disaster. Even as foreclosures double, and the price of gas and food rises sharply, it's been business as usual on the business pages, and among the liberal political pundits who would rather debate the cover of the New Yorker than the growing desperation of so many Americans. The Congress finally passed a housing bill a year into the crisis with most of the money allocated to try to shore up two housing agencies with more than a half a trillion in housing assets. The markets are melting down with more major stocks tanking, banks writing off still more billions. and unemployment rising. People in the know like George Soros are saying this is the worst financial crisis since the depression. Others fear another depression. This pessimism has reached Newsweek, a guardian of conventional wisdom, which now says "It's Worse Than You Think, writing... "this downturn is likely to last longer than the eight-month-long recession of 2001. While the U.S. financial system processes popped stock bubbles quickly, it has always taken longer to hack through the overhang of bad debt. The head winds that drove the economy into this dead calm- a housing and credit crisis, and rising energy and food prices-have strengthened rather than let up in recent months. To aggravate matters, the twin crises that dominate the financial news-a credit crunch and the global commodity boom-are blunting the stimulus efforts." We have two challenges: understanding the gravity of what is threatening us, and then discussing what could or should be done. We might also want to think about what the press should be reporting and what policy makers should be proposing.
On the foreclosure crisis, for example, I was just in Washington for five days with NACA, the Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America which took over a major hotel and set up a shop to counsel at risk home owners and advocate for affordable loans.
The Washington Post, based just across the street from the lines of some 20,000 people seeking help, did not cover it until it was over. But, to their credit, when they did they recognized that this effort by a not for profit citizens group was more effective in responding to the crisis than all the government agencies put together.
Writes Post Business columnist Steven Pearlstein:
"They came by plane and train, car and subway, starting before dawn and continuing late into the night, all of them clutching tattered folders and envelopes stuffed with the documentary evidence of their financial hardship and miscalculation. "It was striking how well-organized and executed it all was. Outside, there were plenty of volunteers and staff -- 350 were flown in from around the country -- doling out information, advice and sympathy to those waiting in line. ... "In the space of 30 to 60 minutes, the well-trained, upbeat counselors managed to win the trust of their new clients, wring promises of a more frugal lifestyle and enter into their computers the relevant financial details. At a push of a button, NACA's underwriting system declared how much the client could afford in monthly mortgage payments, and automatically requested the mortgage servicing company to modify the loan accordingly. Depending on the service and the loan, the answer might be available in a matter of days or even hours. In about half the cases, the result is likely to be a below-market, fixed-rate loan with hundreds of dollars cut from their monthly payments." So here's one example of what can be done by an economic justice organization fusing services and advocacy. This all happened three blocks from the White House. While federal regulators visited, none of the progressive DC think tanks or even unions showed up in solidarity even though AFL-CIO headquarters is a block away.
Individuals need help but we all need change. Are we dealing with just another market mistake, the latest bubble gone bust in a volatile business cycle or a straining system on the verge of breakdown? Can we solve all this with an Alka-Seltzer-like infusion of new taxes or regulations?
Or, is Gerry Gold, economics editor of the UK's A World to Win, right when he argues, "The urgency of building a movement to replace capital, not to rescue it, cannot be overstated. This will mean a major program extending social ownership to all sectors of the economy, ending the distribution of profits to shareholders, and replacing the system of selling labor for wages with collective decision-making about the distribution of an organization's income."
Pie in the sky? Or is the sky really falling, made worse by global warming, wars without end, and resource depletion? If Obama or McCain are to "fix" what's broken, they better start talking about it. And once they inevitably do, will either one of them, once elected, be able to overcome Congressional inertia and the power of corporate/finance industry lobbies? If the rest of us see what's coming, we better speak up too. Remember, when you see something say something? It's also time to do more than talk. Mediachannel's News Dissector Danny Schechter has written PLUNDER (Cosimo). (newsdissector.com/Plunder) a new book investigating our economic calamity, and made the film IN DEBT WE TRUST (indebtwetrust.com) Comments to Dissector@mediachannel.org See Danny Schechter in Washington: Congress Helps Banks But What About Home Owners?
99 Comments so far
Show AllDecades of corporate consolidation have left us with massive economic entities which cannot reconfigure themselves with practical efficiency, leaving them unable to maneuver as nimbly as they must to negotiate times of uncertainty.
One clear symptom of corporate gigantism (which is a medical term; look it up) is the obscene compensation of the chief officers of ungainly behemoths. The compensation itelf stems from an equally disastrous development: the continuing centralization of decision making which, if it doesn't work for Communism, won't work for capitalism.
The huge corporations need to be "busted" in the same way that Teddy Roosevelt implemented the provisions of the Sherman Anit-trust Act.
We need to start with the huge "national" banks and other financial institutions.
Then we need to return all food production and delivery systems to regional and local levels.
jj
Since the capital used in our economy is all borrowed, it should be harder to spend it on a large war. Unless capital used is of less value than the loot from the war ( Oil ). This is another pipe dream, as they don't see the full effect of running on this path.
Economy run on borrowed money , has a tendency to cut government services, including oversight ( consumer protection, anti-trust etc. ). This time there is no one left to bust up the hugh corporations. The integity of goverment is in doubt, it has been handed over to politicians, religous groups and monopoly players.
It is hard times coming to USA. It also shows that literacy is overrated. Critical thinking is easily short circuited by the message from our media. Democracy can be subjugated by changing capital.
It is time to loosen the bind we have been placed under and keep going forward using micro economy in our neighborhoods rather than support the hugh corporations.
Wish you all the best. It's time to use human capital to marginalize large corporations and its thumb on the goverment each one of us depended on to make our society fun to live in.
T. Boone Pickens wants Gore as Energy Czar in an Obama Administration. It's no epiphany. Oilman Pickens understands the problem better than most people.
"We have two challenges: understanding the gravity of what is threatening us, and then discussing what could or should be done. We might also want to think about what the press should be reporting and what policy makers should be proposing."
What threatens us are the never-ending failures of the Federal Reserve Bank!
"The Federal Reserve System is the central bank of the United States. It was founded by Congress in 1913 to provide the nation with a safer, more flexible, and more stable monetary and financial system."
If they were doing their job properly, tax-payers would not have to bail them out after creating more instability than we have seen since the great depression. They are suppose to "contain" systemic risk - not create it!
"Fed eyes Nordic-style nationalisation of US banks"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/31/cnfed131.xml
The above link is a good read. Why won't our government leaders follow the Nordic countries and allow the shareholders to take a loss instead of dumping the burden on tax-payers? Wall Street would certainly have some explaining to do if the big shareholders lost their money, wouldn't they!
It's good to hear the buzz in this thread about strengthening local economies and doing business on a human scale. I think the pendulum is swinging away from the jackbooted approach of globalization toward a realization that communities can meet many of their food, energy, and fundamental needs on a local level.
A good reference on this topic is Michael H. Shuman's "The Small-Mart Revolution: How Local Businesses are Beating the Global Competition."
How it is, "We know what goes up must come down but when will what's down go back up?" I know not. Although uncertain, the phrase "but when will what's down go back up?" implies the economy--presumably "what's down"(?)--will "go back up." What "law" of the universe dictates this is left unclear, apparently assumed self-evident. Indeed there is no necessity in it, things never appearing to "go back up" in Haiti, nor in innumerable lost societies.
Missing from discussion of the economy, even by certainly American economists since the Cambridge capital controversy, is that there is no such thing as capitalism, at least if it is defined as "free enterprise." Only chaos constitutes free enterprise. Whenever organized constraints are imposed on human activity, a planned system is introduced. Thus, the self-proclaimed libertarian Alan Greenspan headed the Federal Reserve System, socialistically planning the money supply.
If distinct from chaos, an economy is necessarily planned. All that distinguishes one economy from another is the planned structure. What has been in place since at least Ronald Reagan is neo-corporatism, whereby literally the state exists to foster the interests of the major economic interests. Classically wages are held down and government policy fosters corporate expansion.
It is this artificially instituted system which has failed. There is nothing any more "natural" to it than to any other economic system. A human creation, when humans cannot know infinity while existing in an infinite universe, all variables can never be controlled. As so, unexpected effects will occur.
Economists accommodate these assuming the "substitution effect," where we're just substituting one means for another toward the same end. Never assumed is Thomas Kuhn's "paradigm shift," when the entire enterprise is junked, and we start all over again. Doing the latter, to "go back up" loses all meaning.
We may well be at this point, the point of an economic "paradigm shift."
Why can't we co-exist with corporations? They provide goods and services, not to mention jobs. I do understand that corporations lobby, but is that not the purpose of government - to hear greivencess. Maybe we need to begin to elect more thoughful and honest politicians who do their job and listen to grievencess but don't give into every whim and request of a company. I don't like scapegoating people, races, sexes or entities, like corporations, for every problem we face. Lets have some balance and dialog rather than mindless bashing and finger pointing. Why can't we all get along? CO-EXIST as the good Lord admonished us to do!
"this downturn is likely to last longer than the eight-month-long recession of 2001."
I remember GWB saying over and over in 1999 that "a recession is coming." I felt about that as I did about the CA blackouts.
And sure enough, we had a recession in 2001. And, gee, GW got it fixed just in time for 9/11. So why didn't he see this one coming before it hit him over the head?
This article presents a good example of how to deal with the housing crisis. Borrowers need to recognize that they screwed up buying more house than they could afford, and lenders need to recognize that the house they lent money on is worth a whole lot less. Once those two parties recognize their errors then they need to sit down and renegotiate the terms of the loan. It's in neither party's interest to have the home foreclosed on, so a voluntary agreement to compromise is the mature thing to do.
In addition, nobody should be asked to pay for another's mistakes. That is, we the taxpayers should not be asked to bail out Fannie Mae and Freedie Mac, which is now virtually guaranteed. They took risks and we are going to pay the price. I resent living my life responsibly, only to have to bail out somebody who didn't do likewise. If such people cannot renegotiate their mistakes as I described above, then they should suffer the consequences, not I.
Unfortunately, we seem to have the childish mentality today that we don't have to suffer the consequences of our actions. If we trip and fall, it's somebody else's fault and we should sue them for damages. If we get in over our heads financially, then the government should bail us out. If we do poorly in school, then somebody should just give us a good job anyway, just because we deserve it. That's childish mentality that only seems to apply in the U.S.
In some ways, I agree with Phil Gramm that we are a "nation of whiners."
Dave
marc melchiori - the problem is that the corporations have bought and paid for the government. They don't go there to air their grievances, and ask for help - they go there to tell their bought and paid for flunkies what they expect them to do.
Imagine if we the people lost ESPN for a day or two. Then we would really see a nation of whiners! We have got it so good in this nation that we take for granted simple things like indoor plumbing and clean drinking water. Even the poorest foks in eastern KY or the MISS delta have those things and TV and VCR's and cell phones. We have very little to complain about. I just hope we are smart enough to be forever vigilant and not become to fat, dumb and lazy.
Wilmoor, thats a little broad brushed - is it not? have some balance, not everyone is out to get you.
Imploding economy? For the rich, who are always protected in so-called difficult times, we see our representation lurch to shore up potential break downs in their entitlements.
Corporations carry out some of the most horrific human rights abuses of modern times, and they are exceptionally difficult to hold to account, additionally, they happen to run the government.
When our notorious republic claimed that they had to take "off the head of the serpent" in Iraq with cruise missiles, the goal was to brutally and quickly affect change, or to violently liquidate a corrupting world influence. No rational US citizen would agree with applying this same litmus test to our own haplessly corrupt management, but how long will the US masses continue to tolerate their own government's contempt and hostility?
That nutty guy that once advocated Social credit (and helped lead to the birth of Social Credit parties here in Canada, which have since vanished) does not seen so nutty after all.
His proposal involved no currency/money at all.
I always thought it pie in the sky..I might have to look at it again.
PK
If you've gotten all the way down this thread and still haven't clicked Gail's link above to the article in the UK's Daily Telegraph, do it now -- you'll read about a great way to solve a banking crisis without fleecing the taxpayers!
How interesting that this info had never showed up in the U.S. corporate media.
Mark,
I wouldn't care if we lost ESPN forever.
"I just hope we are smart enough to be forever vigilant and not become to fat, dumb and lazy."
Check again, I think it's already too late.
its never to late. The founders gave us a near perfect system of government - at least the best that man can devise. Lets see if we have the moral courage to return to a constitutional republic. I think its within us to do so - at least lets give it a try if not for ourselves than for my gaggle of kids and yours.
It also seems important to keep in mind that the process of fiscalization of a society is dependent on 'demonization'of systemic thinking that does not reflect its own agenda. It demands that it and only it represent the alpha and omega. This is an earmark of 'usury'. By negating the full breadth of dynamics the manner(s) in which they can be exercised can be limited to 'taking' and the modes of reciprocal interaction remain unexplored. We have begun to recognize and articulate the socialism of corporate fiscalization and the 'capitalism' of 'the consumer'. I bristle and grimmace when our knowledgable mid-levels speak in the conflated jingoism of human as economic unit. The label is fast losing its stickum.
Marginalization remains a highly abstracted (aoh, isn't that a shame, poor, poor 'them') term when it is in fact the margin by which profit is sustained. Today the marginalization of 'third world' societies has begun to unveil in a history that from Mark Twain, Zinn, Eduardo Galleano, the Navajo Court system, Naiomi Kline and innumerable others have articulated and documented.
History and documentation are tremendously valuable right now particularly on the local level. Conventional mass media lacks the capacity to address local and regional issues with sifficiency - though if they wake up it would seem to be the wave of the future (post-gigantism).
The gigantism has built so much momentum that it may very well run itself over the cliff in classic scapegoat pattern. If that proves to be the case, our challenge would be to keep a keen and very specific eye on not mistaking effects for causes as things shake out. This why cool heads, documentation, dialogue and compassion will also demand that we remain open to the same occuring in innumerable 'local/regional' contexts and circumstances world wide.
There is a vast array of topical networks from international grassroots information exchanges on water, local organic sciences, community program development, legislative inniatives and activism, etc. it is simply a matter of defining one's focus. These are emergent and still developing - try looking at Catalytic Communities. Over the next year there will probably be an international web of such resources interconnecting.
I am reminded of the bumper sticker "envision whirled peas" - a sense of humor and seeing the crinkling of various forms of rigidity in rhetoric as a crack in a sterile cosmic egg - with the real macoy having an opportunity to emerge.
Participating in emergence of change calls for a perspective that is different from reacting to and being induced to shoring up a system in distress. It occurs gradually, even under crisis circumstances, it does not divide; it is about listening and respect; it is interdisciplinary engagement and looking for opportunities to engage positive reciprocal development.
Local can mean not only around the block, but in other communities and on other continents as well. The model for paternalistic post profit 'giving' can be more 'giving back' of resources in practices of restraint within concepts of sustainability and sufficiency.
Danny Schechter has been warning about this for years. I am sure it is of no satisfaction for him to have been right. We were warned.
OLD GOAT - please I'm from Mt Olivet KY, no college, no Harvard barely high school. Ya lost me on the first sentence. Can anyone translate. In other words what the hell did you just say?
Marc: "its never to late. The founders gave us a near perfect system of government - at least the best that man can devise. Lets see if we have the moral courage to return to a constitutional republic. I think its within us to do so - at least lets give it a try if not for ourselves than for my gaggle of kids and yours."
I'm sorry but your admitted lack of education is showing. Our so-called republic isn't even close to the best system of government and, in fact, wouldn't even have included representation for you if you weren't a land holding, rich white man.
I don't understand all this garbage about 'reclaiming' the Constitution. In it, my ancestors started off as counting as 3/5ths of a person, for the purpose of Census' only. The 14th Amendment to that 'goddamned piece of paper' was supposed to grant my ancestors full citzenship rights. Instead, it was used in the courts to give corporations 'personhood' and my people were still denied even simple human rights.
Fuck the Constitution. Rich folks have ignored it anyway. Why do all of us poor keep acting as if the way we live now is the best and only way there is? Do yourself a favor, Marc. Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. Learn how you've been fed, swaddled up in, and bathed in our cultural story and you'll see why you've espoused a system that was never designed for you to begin with.
The USA cannot fix its problems because it's too busy fixing Iraq's and Afghanistan's problems.
Marc, don't worry about not understanding old goat - he is rambling terribly, thinking he is clever and esoteric, but really the information density is very low.
But seriously, this mindless worshiping of the founding fathers and their document, does not help. Our constitution and bill of rights is actually quite antiquated in some ways. It was groundbreaking at the time, but as dablackanarch points out it has flaws, and it could not have anticipated the developments we have been experiencing.
Also, It may just be impossible to design an incorruptible system, no matter how smart you are. It could be that the elite class is going to figure out how to make any system work to their advantage, and if we the people want any fairness, we may just have to shake things up every couple hundred years.
Re: Old Goat's post, my parse, and if I misunderstand, take it as another plea for clarity.
"It also seems important to keep in mind that the process of fiscalization of a society is dependent on 'demonization'of systemic thinking that does not reflect its own agenda.... The label is fast losing its stickum.
[Economic systems need opposing systems that are seen as evil (like capitalism/communism). Usary – making interest off loaned money – is only one option, but you're not allowed to talk about others. Corporate capitalism is supported by government, that's a kind of socialism. The author doesn't like it when humans are only seen as part of the consumer capitalist set-up.]
Marginalization remains a highly abstracted (aoh, isn't that a shame, poor, poor 'them') term when it is in fact the margin by which profit is sustained....
[Poverty is seen as sad, rather than as a planned part of corporations making more profit. Famous people and examples have been talking about this for a long time, it's becoming pretty clear.]
History and documentation are tremendously valuable right now particularly on the local level....
[Do your own local research and make and support your own local media. Maybe the mass media will wake up if things change.]
The gigantism has built so much momentum that it may very well run itself over the cliff in classic scapegoat pattern....
[The centralized/big corporate government system may collapse, since it's not solving it's problems, just blaming others. If that happens, try to focus on root causes (and fixes). Calmly work together with other local/regional folks worldwide to create a well-researched, compassionate future.]
There is a vast array of topical networks from international grassroots information exchanges....
[There are a lot of single-issue groups. They can work together on the "big picture."]
I am reminded of the bumper sticker "envision whirled peas" - a sense of humor and seeing the crinkling of various forms of rigidity in rhetoric as a crack in a sterile cosmic egg - with the real macoy having an opportunity to emerge.
[It's good if we can take a joke, and learn from it along the way.]
Participating in emergence of change calls for a perspective that is different from reacting to and being induced to shoring up a system in distress....
[Helping make change is different from reacting to problems. Change comes from people gradually (even under crisis) coming to listen to each other and see ways to work together.]
Local can mean not only around the block, but in other communities and on other continents as well. The model for paternalistic post profit 'giving' can be more 'giving back' of resources in practices of restraint within concepts of sustainability and sufficiency.
[Ummm... The world is "local." Rich people might give poor communities back the money they stole? In a restrained, sustainable, sufficient way.]
The system is nothing more than a, now, rickety house of cards. If we try to "save" it, all we end up doing is postponing the inevitable. In order for that paradigm shift, that was mentioned, to happen the old system must collapse in on itself. That means a lot of people will experience tremendous suffering and while I don't wish what's coming on anyone, except the corporate tyrants in my darkest moods, in order for growth to happen, for progress, for IMPROVEMENT, the pain must proceed. The surgeon's knife hurts, but you don't tell him not to use it to cut out the cancer.
dablackanarch - anytime ya want to come here up to the farm in MT Olivet and see how rich I am your welcome to it. Sounds like your the bigot - just because I'm from KY, never been to college and almost passed high school does not make me a ignorant person. I bet on any given day I could run street smart circles round ya when it comes to raising cattle, reading the seasons, and growing a cash crop. PS if ya ever do make it here be sure to bring your own TP - we just use cut up scraps of newsprint in the old three seater out back - and that aint no joke. PPS - can't read I'm jus a poor country cracker from the back hills of KY. PPPS - best neighbor in the world owns a 162 acre plot with a heafty head of cattle - guess what - he's as black and the ace of spades!
Old Goat - your screed of 2:46 PM is over-intellectualized. Save it perhaps to impress your professor or a book publisher, but it entirely misses the point here as have others' comments.
The problem is the Federal Reserve Bank, which is a private bank and not "federal" at all. Get rid of it and reinstate gold-backed currency that - according to the Constitution - only Congress can print and regulate. As Aaron Russo (among others) has said, do this and you'll solve 95% of the country's financial problems.
esarge - thanks agree - shake things up every so often. Thats what is so great with our system. we can change it if we have the will. the last big shake up in our favor was with FDR. Lets se if we can build of that model and move forward.
I watched this catastrophy coming together for months before 9/11.
I yelled at my elected officials until I'm horse to no avail.
I sure understand how Cassandra felt.
I think Henry Miller put his finger on it in Tropic of Cancer, we must reach complete degradation before we can rise again. There will be no Marshall Plan, no American Recovery Act after what we have done. Welcome to the New American Cemetery!
We are enslaved by the money system. The current economic crisis is a DEBT BOMB that has exploded. It is NOT the phoney 'liquidity crisis' that is being wheeled out by the very thieves-in-the-game themselves, to mislead the public as all conmen/hucksters/fraudsters do. 'Look over there, it's them that did it! Not me, I had nothing to do with it.'
The Bankers want people to be chained, and make them dance for their supper, for endless DECADES. So ways were arranged to enslave the public and suck even more 'money' to the top echelons, via Enron Accounting and Mark-to-Market Fraud, and 'Creative' Loan Structures, and the rigged-up CMO Packaged Off-Loading-to-the-Suckers of the Junk the banksters thus created.
Alan Greenspan, and now Ben 'we can't regulate derivatives and hedge funds or the players would leave the US and go elsewhere (take their stolen marbles and leave)' Bernanke, play major roles in this and the other recent debacles of finance (blowing bubbles with their NeoCon/Ayn Randian/Corpo-Fascist/MiltonFriedmaite outlook in exercising their total control of interest rates to banks, total control of bank rules, and total control of the American peoples' currency and money supply itself.
Read your money -it says "Federal Reserve Note" - so it is just a memo from Alan and Ben that says the bearer of the note can get another note just like it at the Ferderal Reserve printing press, controlled by Alan Greenspan and now Ben Bernanke, and their ilk. Perhaps soon, like Zimbabwe has, they will issue the one-hundred-billion dollar Federal Reserve note, so we can pay for a gallon of gas.
Alan and now Ben are in Thrall to banksters and are neocons themselves. For example, pal Sandy Weil of Citibank (with Robert Rubin of the Clintonistas) wanted to own a stockbrokerage, so Alan changed the rules, and retroactively had Congress change the laws, to let Sandy and all the other bankers do so. This had been against the law since the Great Depression... and voila, the neocons and freemarketeers and corpo-fascists have conjured up another one.
This debt-bomb has been ticking since Reagan started it up. Reagan needs to be pulled down as an icon much like the statues of Lenin were in Russia. But Reagan was actually very mild compared with the current gang of crooks, conmen, warnuts and neoconservative zealots running this nation now.
They have managed by their greed-is-good 'filosofy' to practically destroy the American Republic in seven years, and yet have the gall to nominate another of their corrupt, dunderheaded, ultrawealthy, warmongering kind in McSame.
McSame has, of all people, Carly Fiorina and Phil Gramm as his ecomomic team! Carly, who as a corporatist CEO was destroying HewlettPackard and outsourcing the computer industry from this country... and Phil, who in Congress had Enron deregulated to let it go out and rape and pillage California and its very own employees... and Phil, who in Congress has banking deregulated to let it go out and rape and pillage Amrica and Americans... these are his so-called 'economic advisors'.
These 'people' are two of the most foul, venal, corrupt people in the world. This is McSame's proud economic team... the SAME people who actually caused the downfall of America and the current economic crisis. And all Phil can do is say that the duped suckers/wageslaves whine too much when the whip is applied. He says this from his perch as a director at Union Bank of Switzerland, a firm now under federal investigation for enabling tax fraud upon the American nation. Yes, what a proud team McSame has.
Yes, we need a new paradigm to run society. Controlled Capitalism is now seen to be unable to move us forward with its accounting gimmicks without substance and its rigged game for the benefit of the controllers of 'money'. Command Communism is able to move forward only at too great a human cost. Command Corpratism, the free-market equivalent to command communism, is too greedy to serve the public instead of the avarice of its owners, the 1% of America that owns 95% of its equity.
First thing, truly Federalize the Federal Reserve and FannieMae and FreddieMac. The taxpayers are paying anyway. Then, have the Fed call in ALL the Federal and State debt from the rich flat-worlders and lender nations, and refinance it through the Fed 'Discount Window' at Zero interest to governments and NGOs. Thus, eliminating/saving the taxpayer-financed redistribution of wealth upwards to the rich. And have the FMs refinance all loans under their umbrella on simple reasonable flat terms to save only homeowner-family-occupied homes, not speculator houses, paying for this through the Fed 'Discount Window' as well.
Then, bust up the mega-banks through antitrust action (a la Adam Smith, who would destest the state of economic fraud and immoral gamesmanship going on now) which is sorely AWOL under the Republican corruption of government, divest the banks of stockbrokerages, and appoint Real regulators, not to pester with make-believe rules and paperwork compliances, but to set Social Cost Control on the naturally-greedy banksters and owners, who are the Real Perpetrators of the current crisis, and are the Real Criminals in this Tragedy of the Commons.
The model for the near future is Scandinavian Socialism. And the goal is to better even that excellent social system. There are ways that some have devised that I have read about would give us a more perfect Union; let us begin.
marc melchiori this is not the saturday night live audition thread...redirect your browser. "I don't like scapegoating people, races, sexes or entities, like corporations, for every problem we face." what, then do you perceive is the problem? FDR was an elitist that gave away a little to to avoid having the ruling class lose it all. i do not believe that your simplistic (to be nice) view is legit. i think you are trying to have fun playing forrest gump on a site that does not share your real perspective.
Marc:"dablackanarch - anytime ya want to come here up to the farm in MT Olivet and see how rich I am your welcome to it. Sounds like your the bigot - just because I'm from KY, never been to college and almost passed high school does not make me a ignorant person. I bet on any given day I could run street smart circles round ya when it comes to raising cattle, reading the seasons, and growing a cash crop. PS if ya ever do make it here be sure to bring your own TP - we just use cut up scraps of newsprint in the old three seater out back - and that aint no joke. PPS - can't read I'm jus a poor country cracker from the back hills of KY. PPPS - best neighbor in the world owns a 162 acre plot with a heafty head of cattle - guess what - he's as black and the ace of spades!"
First of all, I did not accuse you of bigotry. You yourself have stated that you are not very well educated and I merely reiterated that and acknowledged that, based on your inital post, it showed.
To showcase the obvious flaws of the Constitution doesn't make me a bigot. I could point out many others that have nothing to do with my race but, those I mentioned were dear and near to me as a black person.
Your personal wealth means nothing to me. As a matter of fact, you detailed what I would consider valuable about you when you listed your ability to grow food, farm, etc.
You should also be prepared for a backlash when you make a statement such as, "The founders gave us a near perfect system of government - at least the best that man can devise." I can't prove it but, the assertion that you're some troll on this site becomes hard to ignore, with you spouting obvious propaganda.
I will state my inital premise again. Fuck the Constitution. There is no government that you can tie down with a piece of paper. As for this government, please give Bush and Company what they deserve...a short drop and a sudden stop. Black Anarch out.
"ending the distribution of profits to shareholders". Distribution of profits to shareholders has largely already ended. Many companies don't pay dividends to their stockholders. The ones that do usually pay a token dividend amounting to about 2% per year (and that is considered generous). Microsoft paid the first dividend in 2003, eight cents. Microsoft's latest dividend is up to eleven cents for a guarter, which is 1.7% per year at the current stock price. Exxon? 2% per year for Exxon and the stock price has been relatively flat for the last two years. Have Exxon's profits been relatively flat? Collapse of the stock market will not be because companies are not making a profit. The collapse is taking place because companies don't share the profits with stockholders. So, investors have found something else. Commodity futures, e.g. oil.
sorry - this is way too long - won't happen again
If i look at history, there is always somebody at the bottom of the western model. People who are different, defined as 'less', by race, education, religion or language etc... Marginalized countries with natural resources, try to develope the resources equitably (natural resources not being a God given right limited to the corporation) - get the media whine - like the treatment of president Chavez.
As these people say - "woah - not on my back!" the profit margin has to find another framework. Hey! How about credit?? 20% interest on a credit card. Not bad if you can get in on it some say ... How do we define usery? Where do we find it?
Thou shalt not have a local economy of exchange and barter (much less an national or international network - except banks and financial institutions). The printing of the money: legal tender>'alpha'- beginning, and name the system>> omega: The End. We choose this.
Massive corporations, say, Shell oil in Nigeria, or for example Aracruz Celuose, plants scores of thousands of hectares in eucalyptus for cellulose (toilet paper etc) was taken to court in Brazil. Its scandanavian stockholders pulled out years earlier when a group of Guarani Indians proved that AC acquired their ancestral land unconstitutionally. They were able to prove their case. If you look at AC website you will no longer find page after page denouncing the indians as "acculturated" and "supposed indians" - anyway... by AC claiming the right to say who is and who is not indian, it ...poof... disappears the Guarani and is no longer responsible for their 'marginality'/profit margin - can't do it without the land. At the same time AC presents a very heart warming account of the post profit programs they 'give' (tax deductible of course, a fiscal mechanism) to the marginalized people in the region. By the same token - AC has the opportunity by respecting the court finding, to redefine itself.
Someone else has a project of 'marginalized eucalyptus' for small scale regional rather than international export- growing as windbreaks at property edges - no agro toxins etc... just a different model. Imagine in your county, small eucalyptus groves specifically cultivated for the the county's toilet paper production. Where do imported things come from and what is their story?
The Guarani have an incredibly rich spiritual/intellectual/horticultural/ musical/dance/martial arts culture and they are also ancestral forest stewards - all integrated and sustainable (until their land is taken) but it must be said that they do not generate profits - they function according to a an ecology/economy of reciprocity. Do they want to be "consumers"? not primarily. Will they have to defend their right to their own seeds in court against the likes of Monsanto despite some strains hundreds - maybe thousands of years old?
So what is cause and what is effect? Marginalized people have not always been so. As they are defined as "marginalized" so is their way of knowing and living. Yet we are looking at increasing failure of the system that marginalized them in the first place, never shared what actually exists about them, so we have all been losing doubly.
Breaking the cycle of 'dis - understanding' might be one of our greatest challenges and gifts. Its a different way of functioning. For all the limitations and fears the current system claim exist, there are innumerable options to explore - some tousands of miles away, some next door.
Marc M - thanks - no more screed. next time if a head of steam builds i'll really think first. my point is that just as you have your spread in NY - the ammount of knowledge you've got is a treasure trove of real nuts and bolts, exactly what is most valuable. it isn't necessarily shared unless called for - I bet you share/network answers for any kind of problem on a daily basis with neighbors and thats the real model.
Baby Bloc - bingo! thanks - restraint of corporations and the idea of gigantic export models. they are dysfunctional.
http://www.michael-hudson.com
Michael Hudson was Kucinich's chief economic policy advisor. He also frequently contributes to Counterpunch:
http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson07152008.html
Best respond as the Boy Scouts advise - be prepared!
Stick to those hippie values - don't waste, don't take risks, and foster good will in your community. Wait, aren't those conservative values? Nah. They tossed 'em away, we picked them up at the side of the road after they'd only be rained on once...
Already, the chickens come home to roost for "konservative" towns like Houston, where with any decrease in income, you can't afford to drive anywhere, and I guess you hafta starve in macho self-assured silence. "Kommie" towns like SanFran allow folks to struggle through carlessness with "hippie" things like villages in the city and walkable communities and transit and bike lanes. Now, the "konservatives" are the ones needing the government bail out, for they lived like this time would never come.
If you read stuff on this site, I reckon you're much much much much much much much more aware of how you should respond, than, say, a Fox news viewer, who prolly figgers the best thing to do is pick up a new pickup truck and big TV to get that 'ol worlds-strongest-economy humming along again...
Talk about exports... wow...the U.S.A sure knows how to sell a product! Never mind just selling weapons to everyone, the great democracy also sells bankruptcies ta boot.
But seriously folks, are you getting just a little bit excited about all the shit that's coming our way?
Personally, I love a good Sci-Fi as much as the next person - but holy shit - this is going to be reality check of fucking epic proportions!
Ever been to India? No? That's alright because it's on its way, complements of our sponsors, the good folks who brought you such memorable shows as "The Waltons" and "The 70 Trillion Dollar Pyramid".
Remember what you have for dinner tonight, better yet, take a picture of it, and put it in your wallet. Sometime in the near future, you and a couple of friends can pass it around and laugh till you cry.
It's tax policy stupid! Middle Class people need to get some money in their hands fast. Reversing the Bush tax cuts, taxing wealth at a higher level, then providing relief to the middle class would result in immediate funds in the hands of people. Claiming more dependents would increase the money in the hands of people in their paychecks. It would all balance in the end.
lastdregs, I can't stand the elitists that call me a forest gump. I make no apologies for my up bringing and who I am. Sorry I don't go to starbucks and eat lobster tails with the NYC crowd. just a man with a point of view. When I signed up for this channel I though it was for folks with a democratic point of view who wanted to make things better. Would not be the first time i was wrong. it never ceases to amaze me how other folks can hate one another becasue they have a different opinion on things. I may not agree with someone, but when they need my help I give it to then because their part of my extended family - americans!
last dregs - as to the problem. take a look at yourself. I never hurt you - yet you put me in your crosshairs. lets work together here and continue with the progress we dems have made so far.
Doom n Gloom July 27th, 2008 5:39 pm
A good one!
..................................................
Surely we can exchange views without resorting to racism and the "if you don't agree with me, you are an idiot" conversation.
We have differing views. But I'd hope we are all rowing in the same direction. With civility I hope.
As NativeSon says, thank you for your time.
"T. Boone Pickens wants Gore as Energy Czar in an Obama Administration. It's no epiphany. Oilman Pickens understands the problem better than most people."
this is true. but, where was this chickenshit cocksucker ten years ago when he could have been USEFUL. why is he speaking up now? no doubt he has an ulterior motive. this prick cares about as much about the environment and the economy as exxon mobile.
I guess thats what black anarch thinks of me a poor stupid dumb farmer. Heck, I dont have a decet vocabulary and a diploma in my den - therefore my viewpoint means squat. Well, I am middle class and more wise than most would think. I hate being hurt by folks who think they are better than me. maybe I should tend to the cattle tonight and let the rest of ya starve.
To all,
Please ignore marc melchiori and his elk. There are quite a few of them
trolling progressive websites. Their only mission is to irritate and
possibly infuriate progressives and waste their time and energy. It is
obvious that it is futile to try to engage in any real serios discussion with the like of those trolls.
old goat July 27th, 2008 5:05 pm:
"Marc M - thanks - no more screed. next time if a head of steam builds i'll really think first. my point is that just as you have your spread in NY - the ammount of knowledge you've got is a treasure trove of real nuts and bolts, exactly what is most valuable. it isn't necessarily shared unless called for - I bet you share/network answers for any kind of problem on a daily basis with neighbors and thats the real model."
old goat,
I'm not Marc M, my handle here is "seditious". I haven't a clue what the NY reference is about, nor the rest of your attempt at insult and/or derision.
Suffice to say that IMO, you have a tendency to ramble off on tangents. Just saying. Try not to take offense next time. Why not stay on-topic, since it already contains plenty of dead horses to beat upon?
Also, try to use a spell checker and your "Shift" key more often. ;^ )
As Marx pointed out when he analyzed capitalism, as capitalism develops (matures), production becomes more socialized while the appropriation of surplus value falls into fewer and fewer hands. This imbalance leads to the necessity to socialize ownership. A previous writer questions, "why can't we just get along?". The answer is rather simple - what is in the interests of the capitalist class is in direct contradiction to what is in the interests of the working class, that comprises the vast majority of the population. As long as political and economic power wrests with the capitalist class, the rest of us remain on a never ending spiral of increasing exploitation and ultimately impoverishment. The only answer is to democratize our economic system, so that the surplus value is accrued by the working class. IE, socialism.
I thought marx had been proven wrong decades ago. I'm not sure this site is for me. maybe I'm not as progressive as I think I am. In the end, if were to make the changes that dems want I need you as much as you need me. And if KY is to vote dem, then I would think a FDR dem would find better company here. Could be wrong. I'm not sure that some of you folks are thinking carefully about things. i wish everyone agood night and GOD BLESS. Might return later - most likely just tend to cattle and talk to them - they always agree with me - its a captive audience! HA
The problem is not so much the corporation per se (although there are definite problems with the way that corps are treated as "people" in the US system) - the problem is the people within the corporation who *internalize* the corporation's imperative to do nothing more than provide value to the shareholders. We should not abdicate our other responsibilities to our fellow humans and the planet for the sake of corporate profit - but far too often, we do so for the sake of advancing our careers. The term for this, of course, is well-known: "selling your soul."