How Should We Respond To The Imploding Economy
Are We Facing Just Another Market Problem or A System Collapse?
Boston, July 25, 2008: The question we face in late July, as regulators seize two more banks, is: will we be engulfed by a further collapse in our economy or can the damage be contained, or, even turned around?
We know what goes up must come down but when will what's down go back up?
It isn't looking good---and, even now, the two presumptive major party presidential candidates are talking about everything but this deepening crisis. They are debating terrorists and Afghanistan and how to meander out of Iraq but not the reality that so many Americans are living with: a squeeze that is leaving so many of us broke, in deeper and deeper debt and disgusted.
Until now, the doom and gloomsters were mostly to be found in the margins, in financial blogs or in the campaigns of Ron Paul, Ralph Nader or the Greens. The mainstream media has been looking the other way and mostly downplaying the unfolding disaster. Even as foreclosures double, and the price of gas and food rises sharply, it's been business as usual on the business pages, and among the liberal political pundits who would rather debate the cover of the New Yorker than the growing desperation of so many Americans.
The Congress finally passed a housing bill a year into the crisis with most of the money allocated to try to shore up two housing agencies with more than a half a trillion in housing assets. The markets are melting down with more major stocks tanking, banks writing off still more billions. and unemployment rising.
People in the know like George Soros are saying this is the worst financial crisis since the depression. Others fear another depression. This pessimism has reached Newsweek, a guardian of conventional wisdom, which now says "It's Worse Than You Think, writing... "this downturn is likely to last longer than the eight-month-long recession of 2001. While the U.S. financial system processes popped stock bubbles quickly, it has always taken longer to hack through the overhang of bad debt. The head winds that drove the economy into this dead calm- a housing and credit crisis, and rising energy and food prices-have strengthened rather than let up in recent months. To aggravate matters, the twin crises that dominate the financial news-a credit crunch and the global commodity boom-are blunting the stimulus efforts."
We have two challenges: understanding the gravity of what is threatening us, and then discussing what could or should be done. We might also want to think about what the press should be reporting and what policy makers should be proposing.
On the foreclosure crisis, for example, I was just in Washington for five days with NACA, the Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America which took over a major hotel and set up a shop to counsel at risk home owners and advocate for affordable loans.
The Washington Post, based just across the street from the lines of some 20,000 people seeking help, did not cover it until it was over. But, to their credit, when they did they recognized that this effort by a not for profit citizens group was more effective in responding to the crisis than all the government agencies put together.
Writes Post Business columnist Steven Pearlstein:
"They came by plane and train, car and subway, starting before dawn and continuing late into the night, all of them clutching tattered folders and envelopes stuffed with the documentary evidence of their financial hardship and miscalculation.
"It was striking how well-organized and executed it all was. Outside, there were plenty of volunteers and staff -- 350 were flown in from around the country -- doling out information, advice and sympathy to those waiting in line. ...
"In the space of 30 to 60 minutes, the well-trained, upbeat counselors managed to win the trust of their new clients, wring promises of a more frugal lifestyle and enter into their computers the relevant financial details. At a push of a button, NACA's underwriting system declared how much the client could afford in monthly mortgage payments, and automatically requested the mortgage servicing company to modify the loan accordingly. Depending on the service and the loan, the answer might be available in a matter of days or even hours. In about half the cases, the result is likely to be a below-market, fixed-rate loan with hundreds of dollars cut from their monthly payments."
So here's one example of what can be done by an economic justice organization fusing services and advocacy. This all happened three blocks from the White House. While federal regulators visited, none of the progressive DC think tanks or even unions showed up in solidarity even though AFL-CIO headquarters is a block away.
Individuals need help but we all need change. Are we dealing with just another market mistake, the latest bubble gone bust in a volatile business cycle or a straining system on the verge of breakdown? Can we solve all this with an Alka-Seltzer-like infusion of new taxes or regulations?
Or, is Gerry Gold, economics editor of the UK's A World to Win, right when he argues, "The urgency of building a movement to replace capital, not to rescue it, cannot be overstated. This will mean a major program extending social ownership to all sectors of the economy, ending the distribution of profits to shareholders, and replacing the system of selling labor for wages with collective decision-making about the distribution of an organization's income."
Pie in the sky? Or is the sky really falling, made worse by global warming, wars without end, and resource depletion? If Obama or McCain are to "fix" what's broken, they better start talking about it. And once they inevitably do, will either one of them, once elected, be able to overcome Congressional inertia and the power of corporate/finance industry lobbies?
If the rest of us see what's coming, we better speak up too. Remember, when you see something say something? It's also time to do more than talk.
Mediachannel's News Dissector Danny Schechter has written PLUNDER (Cosimo). (newsdissector.com/Plunder) a new book investigating our economic calamity, and made the film IN DEBT WE TRUST (indebtwetrust.com) Comments to Dissector@mediachannel.org See Danny Schechter in Washington: Congress Helps Banks But What About Home Owners?
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99 Comments so far
Show AllIts all part of the big plan, the bar is being raised and eventually will be so high that only the most wealthy of the World will be able to afford to eat/live.
best thing we could do is stop supporting them, join an organic csa farm and learn survival skills. Shut them off like they are doing to us.
What I've noticed about the economy is that as it's sinking, and people have less money, the various corporations are raising their rates and fees to make up for America spending less. My propane company just stuck on a new $55 fee for filing up the tanks and checking for leaks. The electric company got a 30% increase. The credit card companies upped all the rates and fees. The bank upped all its fees. I no longer have enough money to pay the bills and still eat. I'm raising food plants in pots, I haven't bought a loaf of bread in six months, I use the car just once a week, and everything I own comes from yard sales and thrift shops--and I'm still broke and in debt. This economy will never recover until America wakes up to it's impoverishment by the military/industrial complex. I hear the effing Republicans and Libertarians blame government spending on social entitlements for our problems and they never say a word about the obscene defense budget. If we stopped buying planes that don't fly and missels that don't hit anything, maybe we'd all have housing, food, and medical attention.
Dear SiouxRose,
Go to the dirtiest underground rock club in New York, and find the loudest band. Take a photo of the most obnoxions performer in the rudest t-shirt. Buy the shirt for 10 dollars and keep it and the photo for 30 years.
Then sell it at Christies or Southebys for 20 Thousand dollars.
I wish I could tell you to invest in gold, real estate, or something else of value - but the Ponzi scheme is all that's left in Amerika, and those things have already bubbled. However, there are so many stupid billionaires right now - someone's gotta want that shirt someday.
Mark melchiori,
While you personally may think the money isn't being spent well, I don't think a civilian movement against African HIV aid is about to form. Therefore one could say that American tax dollars can be spent on humanitarian causes. BTW, I'm not trying to antagonize you with these posts, and I never said you specifically cared. In fact I never categorized you at all.
drbnp48: Is that your way of saying that you have your mind made up, and do not want to be confused by contrary realities? That is sad, as I sense that your heart is good, and humanity desperately needs your help.
but they make the drugs. Wait, i'm a taxpayer - and i don't care so please don't lump me into the "i care" catagory. How do you know we care - there has never been a vote on that spending. No one asked me if I wanted to spend my $ there. Why accept $ aids and not $ for halping people in afganacrap and Iraqastall. What the F ms. HO14. In fact I would rather have my $ back and spend it on a 14 YO ho.
Dear PissantNobody,
You're entitled to your opinion. We simply dissagree.
Ever see a dead cat bounce?
This is not a correction.
This is going to turn into a collapse.
Got your garden ready to go?
marc melchiori,
Your point about $50 billion in spending to fight AIDS in Africa is a sign that the American taxpayer is one that cares. Although you may not have intended an association between this statement and the topic of your first thread in this discussion, it should be noted that major corporations are not the ones investing in this scale of philanthropy. Corporations are not the types of 'people' we should necessarily give the benefit of the doubt to; the claim that they provide employment is overshadowed by the frequent observation of massive layoffs during any time of economic stress in order to keep the shareholders happy.
Jim Glover and drbnp48: Not only are you insulting, ahistorical and profoundly pessimistic about the power and will of organized labor, you are wrong. The Nazis did indeed spout a bunch of populist small-shopkeeper rhetoric. It was demagogic crap then, as it is now. In any case, the superstitious mysticism of the bogus Bible has no place in progressive discussions. Are you really so stupid that you believe the answer to today's problems lie in that whacky book? Even a pissant nobody could write a better book than that!
It is no surprise that among the ignorant, pessimism about light prevails at midnight, and that the cynical will exploit that ignorance. Day does come, though. Likewise, the misled (by misleaders like you two...) and downtrodden proletariat sees no hope in this moment of political darkness, but capitalism ensures there will always be another crisis in the offing. If somebody (i.e., the Lenist party) who knows what they are talking about and really cares about the future has shown their worth during the darkness, the workers will rally around them when an opening occurs, and a communist revolution becomes possible and very attractive. Sleepy, discouraged workers will suddenly and massively make 'impossible' strides in personal consciouness, and finally enable an affluent, egalitarian, peaceful and free society.
Your dead-end formulae, on the other hand, ensure unbroken dominance of the illegitmate rich over the ever-threatened masses. Whether you know it or not, you are acting as agents to salvage imperialism.
Real humanitarians and progressives have no moral choice but to build the party of world proletarian socialist revolution. That is THE task of today.
If we don't aspire to greater heights we deserve to wallow in the mire!
goebbles - the three acres is for my family the rest of it and i'm talking more than you know is for feedin' you pie hole - and for feedin' the pie holes of other livestock - oh... and for feedin' the pie hole of those who like a long drag after a cold glass a beer. My three acres keeps family happy including the hounds and the occasional rabbit or whatever else kids find along the way. My three acres is my own business - keep off it till invited for a summer cookout!
Jim Glover,
Thanks for the back up. Americans are pragmatist. Let's concentrate our efforts on what the citizenry will accept.
In addtion to the Scandanavian example, the British recently took over a bank that failed. The bank leadership was fired. They took no fancy golden parachute with them. The shareholders weren't bailed out. The plan is to rescue the bank and then reprivatize it.
there is no response to an imploding economy, but to let it implode...it will, anyway...simple math will tell you there are only so many molecules within the Earth's gravitational field, and we continue to remove more and more of them from the natural cycle of ingest, digest, excrete...you, me, everything you see around you, relies upon the exchange of 'natural' molecules to survive...the more molecules made unavailable (read: plastics) for this natural exchange by human industrial\chemical activity, and thereby removed from the working total, the fewer life forms able to survive on the remaining...not to mention the need to dispose of them 'somewhere'...continued chemical alteration of our world via industrialization will kill us all...the 'economy', and everything it represents, is a necessary sacrifice on the way to sustainable non-industrial living...
Pissant,
Maybe you want to rule society but the workers do not.
In fact no single class should rule society!
Only bigots who keep up the same old mumbo jumbo want to rule society in the name of the workers.
Just because you seemingly hate Nazis does not make you the next ruler of society.
Do you think you will get enough people to agree with you that you can declare the US communist because it is now imperialist?
You sound like you are totally out of touch with workers and everybody else.
Have you talked to your nieghbors about your plans?
The biblical quote was not Idiotic and was not anything like fascism. If anything it is closer to the Ideals of a just society.... You need to start being truthful first.
drbnp48: Communism is only a nonstarter amoungst those who have given up on the working class as the rightful heirs to economic and political power. What you are really saying is that the organized proletarian is inacpable of ruling society - that their rule will inevitably result in misrule by their political organs. Further, are you saying that imperialism is a starter? That is the alternative. Your idiotic biblical quote is the true nonstarter, and in fact is essentially the same line used by the Nazis to justify their ultimately corporatist agenda.
Intelligent workers will beware of reformists, and listen to those who speak to their OBJECTIVE needs.
Good idea, We can't afford a new planet.
PissantNobody's call for communism is a nonstarter. It's been tried and failed. I doubt very many people want to bother trading centralized decision making by Party/government leadership for the current quaisi centralized decision making by the Wall Street elites and their bought and paid for polititcians. It's his kind of talk that enables the elites to scare the masses into going along with the current broken system, because they fear the communist alternative more.
Try fixing the tax code that let's the Hedge Fund/LBO orperators to pay only 15% tax rate while the rest of us pay around 35% when you add federal income tax, social security and medicare together. Take away the tax advantage that enables all this debt paid for at the taxpayers expense. Try reestablishing real regulatory authority over Wall Street rather than the Mercantilist crap we are forced to put up with now. The central issue is redistribution of wealth. The wealthiest 1% own over 40% of the nation's wealth and 2/3 of corporate stock. The Year of Jubillee passage in the Old Testament talks about returning the means of production back to families so that they can earn a living. That would be reform!
Since there is no audit of US gold since the 50s if we assume what is said is true, there is only 130 billion dollars worth of gold in Fort Knox.
Now that it is getting g popular to realize that our banking system is based on unpayable debt, if we did go back on the gold standard and we did have the gold we think we do but not sure of, I don't think that would be enough gold to back enough money to keep the economy going..
This is gonna be the biggest challenge yet, coming up with a banking system based on something other than gold and silver... maybe on a progress of a sustainable economy.
There are some new economic models out there and i think we are gonna need some new ideas... Anyone?
Nationalize the Federal Reserve or similar to what the Scandinavian countries have done would be a good start.
http://mpelembe.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/20/2247941.html
http://www.livescience.com/mysteries/080111-fort-knox-gold.html
Hey! SiouxRose!
I am serious here...although it may not sound like it..but look into what i am about to suggest for yourself..YOU will SEE! it is the BEST form of investment in these times..
VICE!
Yup! VICE!..Liquor, Gambling, Tobacco..etc...one of only a FEW "Growth" industries in HARD TIMES...remember the Depression? the BEGINNING of the Mobs? They grew into financial powerhouses on Alchohol and..other vices...when times are tough..people will want to get high..to go to casinos..etc..the will spend the little they have to feel a little better...it is not anyones responsibility to tell them NOT to do that..it is not YOURS..or MINE..if they want to do that..fine! unless you are BushCo style "moral majority" type..if not..then invest WISELY...Invest in VICE!
Seriously! it will be quite a lucrative market as things get WORSE! and they WILL get worse...sorry..but it's true.
Thusly..Folks will want to smoke, drink..carry on..if you fel "guilty" about investing in VICE..then take some of the profits, and re-invest them in local shelters, or give to charity..etc..etc..there are many way's to go..but VICE will grow and grow..so invest now..this is the time..in fact there are several traders doing "packages" of these commodities..i have not looked into that..but i have heard it is available..even has a stock name..an index name...look into it..it is a definite sure thing..
marc melchiori sez: "Every time I spread chemicals on my three acre lawn the next week hundreds of worms make it to the surface and begin to die."
***
Apologies to readers for diverting from the topic of economic collapse, but ...
What possible function could your three-acre lawn be serving that it derives more value from chemicals than from worms, marc?
Politics is a dead horse in wealthy nations, that's why speculators are able to loot the piggy banks and get off scot free.
Hey, if the other guy fights dirty, then it's time for a free for all. Poke'm in the eyes: dump cable, satelites, movies, etc. Kick'm in the balls: buy only what you need to stay alive. And best of all, kick'm when their down: When political zombies, or celebrities come looking for your patriotic support, keep kicking till they stop breathing.
What do you think? Feel like a Big Mac with fries?
drbnp48 says: "Capitalism works on Main St with multiple buyers and sellers of goods and services. It's Wall Street and their addiction to debt and greed that's destroying the country."
This illustrates (in the negative sense) the point made earlier about the need for quality leadership; i.e., a Leninist vanguard party. First of all, Capitalism often does not work on Main Street. I won't bother with examples, since I am sure everyone knows their own. Secondly, the calous agents of capital on Wall Street are simply the Major League version of what is on Main Street. In fact, most American Main Streets are populated by subsidiaries of the Wall Street, anyway. Finally, the SEIU, though often courageous, is not calling for the decisive overthrow of capitalism by organized labor, and thus ensuring the continued dominance of illegitimacy. This illustrates the need to build a communist party, and gain leadership within the union movement. There simply is no other way forward for humanity.
On July 17th, the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) held rallies in a bunch of cities, including NYC and Washington, DC protesting Leveraged Buyouts (LBO). These are obscene, debt driven corporate buyout deals that screw the workers, screw the taxpayer and leave previously healthy, productive business saddled with crushing debt, while a handful of corporate and Wall Street insiders make $millions. I drove in to the DC event to support the effort. They demostrated in front of McCain's headquarters. Unfortunately, the Democrats are just as bought off by the Hedge Fund/LBO crowd. Check out Kevin Phillip's newest book, BAD MONEY. Check out SEIU's event site www.july17action.org. It's a step in the right direction. Capitalism works on Main St with multiple buyers and sellers of goods and services. It's Wall Street and their addiction to debt and greed that's destroying the country.
Note. The federal debt is $4.9 trillion. All business debt, excluding the finance industry is $9 trillion. The Finance industry (read Wall Street et al) is a staggering $14 trillion. Again check out BAD MONEY.
From the article: Or, is Gerry Gold, economics editor of the UK's A World to Win, right when he argues, "The urgency of building a movement to replace capital, not to rescue it, cannot be overstated. This will mean a major program extending social ownership to all sectors of the economy, ending the distribution of profits to shareholders, and replacing the system of selling labor for wages with collective decision-making about the distribution of an organization's income."
This is utopian, and dangerous. To talk about socialism and capitalism outside of economic class relations is deceptive. Implementing socialist reforms within a capitalist economy serves to feed malignant imperialism when excision is the correct prescription. 'Experts' who say otherwise are liars in the service of capitalism.
History is not ambiguous on this matter. Only proletarian revolution is capable of clearing out the capitalists and their selfish agenda. You might note that 'capitalist/socialist' Europe has participated in all manner of imperialist beligerencies, including the destruction of the Soviet Union and even the Iraq war. This is because the capitalist class still calls the shots in those capitalist countries. Again, nothing short of workers revolt and siezure of the factoies will do the job. This must happen internationally, but especially in the major economies like the USA and Germany. The path to successful revolution begins with building a Leninist political party, and integrating it into major sectors of the working class. Without a party to capture and hold the lessons of history, even a massive revolt is doomed to fail. Dablackanarch and others expressed some revolutionary impulses above, but nobody seems to get that without a party, their rage will surely burn out with no lasting results.
RICK: I read the link. I am not by nature one who puts a lot of thought into how economic systems work. The love of $ being the evident root of all evil. It's tough to wrap one's mind around how big this debacle really is... reminds me of the pyramid scam that came to Puerto Rico 20 plus years ago. Everyone was asked to put $100 into "the hat" and the one at the top got the full amount; but few stopped to wonder how it would end... that obviously the $ was coming from OTHERS who would (like the ones left without chairs in the children's game "musical chairs") be left with nothing. Wall street and its lender friends orchestrated a very sophisticated expansion on a similar theme.
My parents both recently passed away and left me and my sisters a little $. It's ironic as I never had ANY money and now that I have a small nest egg, I wonder what to do with it given this economy. Investing in real estate is iffy as the prices were jacked up many times over, and the "values" are only starting to resemble viable amounts in this real estate melt down. The dollar is almost a bad joke. MIMICCS has left interesting posts on how it's really fiat currency backed by NOTHING but more paper from the federal reserve. What of the EURO, then? Are all the economies tied together, all ships posed to sink due to the greed that ran the international marketplace? Invest in gold which is already ridiculously high priced?
Any ideas? I will buy seeds... and have begun some planting. I learned to live on little years ago. It's wishing for something for my grandchildren, although the issues related to global warming may make that ideal a moot point.
i pressed the wrong button and posted with misspellings and typos-meant to criticize those who refer to those who eschew the foxes' view of the state of the henhouse as "whiners".hell,the organization of the usa senate alone pretty much precludes us whiners from dinging up the schemes of "winner take all crowd" too much anyway-its just that the scams are so easy to see through at this late date.even winners MUST understand that no capitalist society can continue to have massive private profits and similar public debts without undermining its own legitimacy.
Help! The Invisible Hand of the Market is touching me inappropriately!! I think it stole my wallet too!!
THANKS gail for the article on the nordic bank bailouts-now a word to those who wish to "psychologize" our fetid financial crisis by calling those who don't want to unconditionally subsidize jp morgan while our friends,neighbors,children and possibly ourselves have to downsize radically to pay for a meltdown which the government helped to create.check out phil gramm's role in the securitization of those sorry mortgages.we americans don't really expect much personnaly from our government anymore-regardless of our political orientation.hell,most of the folks who post here know,or ought to know that 4 of the first 6 presidents of the usa basically owned adjoining estates in va,and that in the last presidential election both candidates were members of the same secret society at yale at pretty much the same time.moreover,what most of those stressed homeowners want is the opportunity to negoitiate with the lender to find a way to stay afloat-our leaders unfortunately frame "negotiating" as "whinning" and folks who advocate the process as "weak." we shall see what we shall see.in the meantime,some of you may enjoy the riviting depression era treatise "the folklore of capitalism" by fdr's anti trust guru thurman arnold.
does everyone in the site have such weird theories? Someone was talking about central Indiana. Been to indy may times and would agree the soil is not great - despite what the US geological survey maps tell us. Every time I spread chemicals on my three acre lawn the next week hundreds of worms make it to the surface and begin to die. Not even the birds want to eat them and their easy pickins'. But when so much emphasis is put on our nation to feed ourselves AND the rest of the world what are we to do? Feed ourselves and let the rest of the world be dammed? How many of us do gooders would sit around the TV or the radio and scream aloud "something must be done to save the children" how many of us can look the other way at a small african boy with flys it its eyes and say "maybe your mom should have kept her legs closed or your dad should learn how to plant better". Not feeding the rest of the world would take a lot of pressure of the back of Earth - not to mention me and my wife - but by design we are a nurturing species (MOST OF US) and will always come to lend a hand to those who can not help themselves. If we were to be so heartless why then not let the children of Africa die of HIV AIDS and keep the $50billion were about to spend for ourselves? I know I can't look the other way - its not christian. (I knw the last line might razz some of you but its my opinion and i'm stickin' to it)
Well, we could all move to China.
It is plain to see that the ideas that drive these systems of economies and so on, are subject to human nature, and that the larger and more complex the system, the more problematic it becomes. Consolidation and conglomeration are obviously not of benefit to everybody, but only to a few, who are then placed in positions of power that they abuse because as the rule goes: power corrupts.
But systems corrupt too. And why do they corrupt? Because people are put in untenable situations which leave them no other choice or option, or so they believe.
People then, are corruptible also.
But the systems we have corrupt people, because they see no other options open to them. Thus it is the system that benefits a few that is the problem.
Any new system must take these things into account.
As far as I am concerned the ideas that have created what we call a civilization today are faulty, flawed and stupid because the long term effect of them upon this sillivization mean that it must die, or we all die, because those ideas have lead us into a situation whereby all life on the planet is imperiled by those very ideas.
Those ideas need to be rooted out and exposed for the fallacies they are, so that everybody now and in the future, knows the consequence of embracing or following them and so we can avoid them in the future.
The very notion of sustainability needs far greater consideration than it has been given for sustainability means no longer relying on finite resources. Though finite is the case even with solar power, it may as well be an infinite resource for in terms of our own lives the lifecycle of a sun is near infinite by comparison.
Wind power and other renewable sources of energy, such as waste recycling of organic matter these are all sustainable energy sources.
The economic systems that are in use today are obviously flawed or they could not create the disasters they do, but their flaws were observed long ago and the man who observed them and wrote of them and proposed workable alternatives was initially lauded and then pilloried. Henry George's Progress & Poverty (http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=MX2yE_s0OV4C&dq=Henry+George&pg=PP1&ots=YXau6_KGTA&sig=Md9tByD6aeoR...)made it clear.
One of the ways in which Elite Power Structures work is to embrace those who see through what 'power' is doing, initially elevate one (who has a threatening idea) to the giddy heights of recognition and then in short order disempower. It's a tactic that maintains power, and removes threats to that power. Another way is to simply ignore.
However, the only power, power has is what we grant them, really.
We see the flaws in our systems, and in ourselves, but our folly is to do nothing effective about them, and thus history repeats itself, and therein we find that we are not the clever, bright, intelligent beings destined to rule over all as we seem to think but rather are the dumbest of the dumb for we simply build and destroy our own civilizations over and over and over, until we face the ultimate ability to destroy ourselves because we simply ignore the reality of what is happening, buying into our own hubris.
Elite power is well aware of such entrapment and utilizes it to keep us off-balance, confused, and unable to act. Thus is power maintained. Thus are systems maintained. Thus do the ills of each perpetuate indefinitely, until ALL are imperiled.
Until we understand these mechanisms thoroughly and completely we will not be able to counter them in any intelligent way that results in great benefit and the realization of the ideals which good and decent people otherwise strive to attain - for all, and not just a few.
The exposure and naming of the system of capitalism now dominant on our planet, The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein does much to reveal to us the patterns and mechanisms by which we are duped. They are sophisticated, and they are abominable. But now, we know how this works. To the degree we now utilize this knowledge then to that degree can we begin to assemble a new set of ideas and better models founded on them.
It will then become a matter of how do we get people to buy into the new ideas? How will we establish the commitment and stave off the Elite from subverting what is being done? The internet is a powerful tool for this, and I believe this community, the CD community, has tremendous and growing influence. Extending that influence is important and something we can each do by recommending to others and increasing the subscribers who attend these pages.
But we can also look for those who are endeavoring to make change and carve out new ways of doing things that do not have the same shape, nor goals as those of conglomerates. Companies and groups that provide alternatives. Supporting independent artists such as John Cusack to produce more such works as 'War, Inc.' is just one example.
So I agree, "breaking the cycle of dis-understanding" is one of the imperatives we are faced with. We need to re-think the ideas that drive our systems, we need to identify their consequences and we need to make sure that they are plainly labeled as unworkable, unsustainable, etc.
I once had a notion to create an organization that would evaluate ideas. International Data Evaluation Association. But the problem with such things is that they are too easily taken over by those who seek to use them to their own ends and not to the ends of truly helping others. But I still think the idea of IDEA is useful. It certainly seems necessary. But how to set it up in a world where so few can trust or are capable of trust, or who even should be trusted? Establishing trust takes time and we don't have that much to waste.
Such is the state we find ourselves in.
It's not pretty.
But truth and action...there you can know.
OleManRiver: "Finally, regarding the Federal Reserve, most of the above comments are correct: it is an abomination, but at the time of its creation it was an improvement over a system of state-bank anarchy."
An improvement?? Not unless you think a private bank controlling the money supply, and lending it to the US gov't at interest (creating inflation and debt) is an improvement. Before the Fed there was no inflation except during the Civil War.
I edited the sentence below to remove the extra "not," but for some reason the edited version didn't make it to the post so I had to post the correct version here:
Why should the big lenders just get the cash, leaving the mortgage borrowers owing twice, which is what would happen if none of the money handed to Freddie and Fannie was passed through to lower individual's debt on the way?
What is wrong with the idea of bailing out the mortgage lending part of the economy by using federal funds to pay down everybody's mortgage by a set amount? I don't know how many primary home mortgages there are in the U.S., but if we are going to give Fannie and Freddie trillions, why not pass it through the hands of mortgage debtors on the way?
Lower everyone's mortgage $100,000 or something. Don't actually give them the money, pass it through electronically, lowering the peoples debts and then give the money to the big lending agencies that are having trouble.
It props them up and makes every homeowner $100,000 better off at the same time, which is only fair since the money is borrowed anyway and adds to the National Debt, which will have to be paid, at least the interest, through taxes.
Why should the big lenders just get the cash, leaving the mortgage borrowers owing twice, which is what would happen if none of the money handed to Freddie and Fannie is passed through to lower individual's debt on the way?
I am not proposing that only subprime "victims" mortgages be paid down. Pay down all mortgages on primary residences.
The IRS already has all the data necessary to carry this out. A big tax revenue bonus would also incur because mortgage interest is deductible and if everyone owed $100,000 less they would pay more in taxes.
If that is not a good idea, what are its flaws?
Ronald White July 27th, 2008 9:37 pm
I'd suggest to you that Europeans have more than enough problems of their own and considering some of the Draconian immigration policies many of them have enacted lately along with some of their other problems, I think I'd laugh right back.
Someone above said, "Marx has be proven long ago to be wrong". paraphrase. Please read the three volumes of Capital (Marx wrote), and get back to us when you have finished.
Today, electronics is eliminating human labor, destroying the source of all value, and ending that which makes capitalism what it is: a system of buying and selling based on the exploitation of human labor power, and the expropriation of the profit from the surplus value created from that labor power. Without the exploitation of labor power, profit cannot be realized, and without profit, capitalism cannot survive as a system. In this sense, capitalism no longer exists as it once was, and something new is struggling to be born.
Most of the above reminds me of an adage I opined a few years ago. "Just about the time you get really good at living, you grow old and die."
In the Olden Days people evolved language and told stories and taught Methods (like how to strike flint or cure a hide or suck marrow from a bone) to the younguns and knowledge accumulated in increments through Family and Clan and then Extended Families and Tribes, etc. Then came writing and Nations, and "religions" replaced totems, etc. Then came bookkeeping and scales, and "standardized means of exchange" replaced "simple" barter and then came MONEY.
All of the above remained within the "cultural context" of human discourse and intercourse. Then came the Corporation (e.g., The East India Company, etc.) after the King thing (who "chartered" the Corporation). And the Catholic Church!
The Magna Carta was intended to protect the individual from the predations of the King via Habeus Corpus---present the person to the Public. All of this was turned on its head by the defining of the Corporation as a "person" and then granting First Amendment rights to Corporate "persons." Does a Corporation have Habeus Corpus Rights?
The major outcome of U.S. law in re Corporations, especially since the rise of the dominance of the Corporate Media is the utter destruction of anything traditionally known as "culture." America no longer has a traditional Culture. Instead we have The Media Defining a so-called "Culture," which is antithetical to humans at nearly every level. People who still cling to Culture tend to feel "left out" and they turn to Big Pharma to feel "back in." Big Pharma is far more poisonous than are traditional herbal remedies which are of course demonized because they cannot be patented or copyrighted.
The entire American Capitalist System relies on destroying the basis upon which all of human society has been built for thousands upon thousands of years of linguistic evolution. The very nature of our language and thus all social relations is at stake. The Founding Fathers never intended this outcome and would be appalled.
Finally, regarding the Federal Reserve, most of the above comments are correct: it is an abomination, but at the time of its creation it was an improvement over a system of state-bank anarchy. Note that it came into existence just about the time of the first federal income tax! Sleep on that.
Corporations now perform the edifying that Family used to perform and they are destroying Family in the process. Got a question about gardening? Don't ask your parents because they lost the knowledge. Got a question about Family History? Don't ask your grandparents because by the time you got around to asking, they had died. Ask google!
Everything is about to be Corporatized and Digitized and when they come to take you away it won't be televized. We probably are not too far from patenting your sperm and eggs as "Round-Up Ready"!
As for the posts by marc melchiori and black anarch, love you both. You guys are a trip together. You need each other, down on the farm, which may be a good thing. Learn to grow your own food and let some of it create legacy seed, and if you meet a Monsanto Buddhist along the Road, Kill Him! (Don't worry, they never walk...They all drive those goddam SUVs to use as tanks in case the VWs chase after them and try to run them off the road!)
My Sunday night rant...I know this is a late rant, but I spent the evening driving around east central Indiana at low speed on country roads, witnessing the environmental damage caused by our agricultural "policies." Too much corn (for ethanol) and not enough beans (for nitrogen in the soil). Actually, much of Indiana soil was stripped of nutrients more than a century ago, and it was only with the introduction of "modern" fertilizers (ammonia) that it was revived. Look at a cornfield in Indiana and you will find it essentally sterile. For example, go down a foot: NO WORMS!
-30-
Q-1."How Should We Respond To The Imploding Economy"
Q-2."Are We Facing Just Another Market Problem or A System Collapse?"
A-2. System Collapse.
A-1. Let it.
Nothing Exists
Well, somebody had better figure out something and soon because more and more of us are facing a lack of financial liquidity on scales that many of us are not used to having to deal with. I've always lived very frugally - I live in a tiny, cheap apartment, drive a small fuel efficient car, shop at consignment shops and thrift stores and walk or take mass transit wherever and whenever I can use that to get someplace. And I'm still struggling financially with high food and medical costs that are strangling me. I can now barely make my rent each month. In June I had to borrow money just to pay the rent. I live in the cheapest apartment in Kent, OH and probably pay the absolute cheapest rent in the entire city.
The main thing that this can all be chalked up to is unbridled greed. Unscrupulous mortgage lenders bilking people who didn't know any better out of their hard earned money who thought that they were finally achieving the American dream of home ownership. Lenders saw a "get rich quick" scheme on which they could hitch their wagons and take advantage of a perceived housing bubble that they thought would never burst, only it did, and it took a lot of people down who are still wondering how to hold on to their homes. It also deeply damaged the economy and the damage is going to continue to be felt for years to come.
There is a great parallel between what happened with this housing crisis/credit crunch and the Depression. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the parallels. All you have to do is to crack open your history books to see that the Depression was caused by runaway credit and speculation and an eventual crash that brought this country to its knees. And that's exactly what is going on right now. People owe more on credit than they have to be able to pay it off, there's been runaway speculation on housing and now on oil and we're all paying the price and will be for years to come.
In the meantime, I'll just keep trying to scrape on by and hope that I can make my rent each month and keep the roof over my head that's been my home since 1984. But if the economy does finally nosedive so badly that it collapses under the weight of so much bad debt.....well, who knows how many of us will be left homeless and wondering where to go next? Not exactly a time to feel terribly optimistic about things, unfortunately, even WITH a regime change in Washington..........
"The US abhorrence of anything that smells of socialism also underlies the crisis of medical care."
Well said : That's why capitalist/socialist ( it's not an oxymoron ) Europeans are either laughing at Americans or shaking their heads sympatheticly at the figurative inability of most "flag-draped" Americans to walk and chew gum at the same time : controlled capitalism for making money ( car manufacturing ) and controlled socialism (public hospitals) for spending money.
At a time when we need RAMBO weve got Barney Fife!
The according to Satyajit Das who is one of the world's leading experts on credit derivatives (financial instruments that transfer credit risk from one party to another), Das is the author of a 4,200-page reference work on the subject..
He points the finger at 3 parties for the financial crisis:
Regulators who stood by as U.S. banks developed ingenious but dangerous ways of shifting trillions of dollars of credit risk off their balance sheets and into the hands of unsophisticated foreign investors, hedge and pension fund managers who gorged on high-yield debt instruments they didn't understand and financial engineers who built towers of "securitized" debt with math models that were fundamentally flawed.
So, to say this a subprime mortgage crisis is to overly simplify it.
Link to the article:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10380613/1/the-credit-crisis-could-be-just-beginning.html
Mistaken is "TheProf" who asserts, "There are three basic essentials for life, health, a roof over one's head and food." Water is essential as well, and neo-corporatists have privatized that as well in many "developing" countries. This, of course, ignores the absurdity of the population in "developed" countries who insist on drinking bottled water which has been taken from a tap. As for "a roof over one's head," well the poor in the northern favellas of Lima, Peru, have a saying, "the only thing the government provides is the roof over our heads." Living in shacks the inhabitants construct from whatever detritus can be found. They have no need for roofs because it never precipitates.
The mortgage crisis is a text book example of unrestrained (i.e. by government regulation) capitalism. The drive for bigger an bigger profits leads to unethical, if not criminal, activity.
The US abhorrence of anything that smells of socialism also underlies the crisis of medical care.
There are three basic essentials for life, health, a roof over one's head and food.
All of these have been abandoned by government as the integrity nation's food supply from contamination is also no longer being maintained.
Marc: "The founders gave us a near perfect system of government
- at least the best that man can devise."
if the above had read instead "- at least the best that a bunch of rich white men who wanted to protect their stolen property could devise," I would agree with you.
I am not sure I know what a constitutional republic is, but I certainly share your sentiments for taking care of our kids, and that it is never too late.
The comments here show little understanding about our economy and money. This is because they do not want you to understand. If you did, a lot of people would be hung up on lamp poles. First of all, you can not separate government and the economy. Second of all, capitalism is not the problem, not directly, and we are not 100% capitalists.
Capitalism and Socialism exist in every Democratic country, including ours. It is government that decides the balance of the 2. If it does it's job, corporate and individual citizens both prosper equally, although the better companies and smartest individuals will do better. But everyone who wants to work can, and those who do, earn a living wage.
The Capitalism part of the economy is in private hands and run in the interests of private owners whose main objective is to maximize profit. This is an essential component of economic growth. Governments main function should be to preserve competitiveness and prevent exploitation of the environment and labour through regulation. Capitalism is good when properly restrained.
The Socialist aspects of the economy are for areas deemed too important to the welfare of the nation and it's citizens to leave in the hands of for profit business. Congress was given the constitutional duty to safeguard the general welfare of it's citizens. The military, public education, health care and social welfare, firefighting, police, etc. have all been socialized in most countries. In fact, federal government spending accounts for more than 50% of all domestic spending, so we are more than 50% socialized. Our government spends more than almost any country with national health care on a per capita basis, with very little to show for it.
The medium of exchange for any economy is money. The constitution gave Congress the right to create money. Congress has allowed the for profit private banking monopoly called the Federal Reserve System to control the nations money creation. So instead of creating money for infrastructure development and social welfare, which has little profit in it, they create money for sub-prime loans that get bundled up and sold to their shareholders as securities. Big banks that have a couple of years losses after many years of profits get bailed out. Government can only borrow money at interest or tax it's citizens to spend money. Corporate citizens only pay tax on it's profits, and income generated abroad is untaxed unless they bring it home to invest in the US. Thats why citizens pay so much more of the tax burden than corporations today.
Whats given capitalism a bad name is crony capitalism. This is when government decides it's corporate citizens have more rights than its working class citizens, and when those in government profit as a result of their favouritism. This is the kind of capitalism in America today. Crony capitalism allows cartels and monopolies in the favoured industries, and allows excess profits due to the lack of competition under the guise of free markets, despite it being against the interests of the welfare of the nations citizens. Another name for it in it's most advanced form is Fascism. This is us.
The first step toward any recovery will be in recognizing the constitutional authority for government to create debt free money, and not having to tax it, or borrow it from our privately owned central bank, or other countries central banks, who just create the money out of thin air and charge us interest.
marc melchiori: "I thought marx had been proven wrong decades ago"
The idea that socialism may be defeated by capitalism in a contest of "king of the hill" may have been proven possible. That's like proving that it's possible for the bad side of human nature to prevail over the good side. Or for a predator to overcome its prey. But this does not prove that it's inevitable, nor does it prove that it should be. It's pretty damn obvious that capitalism should not defeat socialism, that some amount of socialism is necessary as a buffer to prevent capitalism from destroying everything. We spent the last seven years watching capitalism pull the USA over the edge. In their relentless quest to dominate the world and plunder its human and natural resoures, the capitalists have nearly destroyed their own system. Meanwhile, tiny little destitute socialist Cuba ranks at or near the top in education, food/nutrition and healthcare, by any measure. And looking at value (bang for the buck), socialist Cuba's performance is stratospheric, with no other society coming close. With the demise of Friedmanite neoliberal capitalist influence around the world, other societies will come to embrace the Cuban model. The difference between Cuba and the many failed third world states is that Fidel Castro managed to suppress elites corruption and keep the nation focused on maximizing value. It would be better if the people could perform these tasks themselves. Well it's a good start to recognize the benefits.
For Marc and Wilmoor: excerpt of 60 Minutes interview by Mike Wallace of then retiring Sen. Fritz Hollins:
…Hollings says senators spend hours a day, almost every day, just working the phones to raise cash. What's in it for him? "A good government," he says, laughing. "And Russell Long said, 'Those who give the money are getting more than good government.'" "In other words, I'll get access," says Wallace. "There ain't any question about that," says Hollings. "We say it's otherwise, but it's sort of adulterated us in a sense that we can't see everybody. …So you're bound to see those who are the big givers." But does access mean his vote? "Not only the vote. Wait a minute, it's all those K Street lawyers now and lobbyists and interests making up the legislation, and they work with staffs and everything else. The bills, and the special interests overwhelm us with submitted legislation," says Hollings. "Communications, defense, you got them all – farms, agriculture people and everything else like that …They get their piece of the pie. That's our problem. Today, you can't find the real interests of the country."…
Interview can be seen at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/10/60minutes/main660368.shtml
The problem is not so much the corporation per se (although there are definite problems with the way that corps are treated as "people" in the US system) - the problem is the people within the corporation who *internalize* the corporation's imperative to do nothing more than provide value to the shareholders. We should not abdicate our other responsibilities to our fellow humans and the planet for the sake of corporate profit - but far too often, we do so for the sake of advancing our careers. The term for this, of course, is well-known: "selling your soul."
I thought marx had been proven wrong decades ago. I'm not sure this site is for me. maybe I'm not as progressive as I think I am. In the end, if were to make the changes that dems want I need you as much as you need me. And if KY is to vote dem, then I would think a FDR dem would find better company here. Could be wrong. I'm not sure that some of you folks are thinking carefully about things. i wish everyone agood night and GOD BLESS. Might return later - most likely just tend to cattle and talk to them - they always agree with me - its a captive audience! HA
As Marx pointed out when he analyzed capitalism, as capitalism develops (matures), production becomes more socialized while the appropriation of surplus value falls into fewer and fewer hands. This imbalance leads to the necessity to socialize ownership. A previous writer questions, "why can't we just get along?". The answer is rather simple - what is in the interests of the capitalist class is in direct contradiction to what is in the interests of the working class, that comprises the vast majority of the population. As long as political and economic power wrests with the capitalist class, the rest of us remain on a never ending spiral of increasing exploitation and ultimately impoverishment. The only answer is to democratize our economic system, so that the surplus value is accrued by the working class. IE, socialism.
old goat July 27th, 2008 5:05 pm:
"Marc M - thanks - no more screed. next time if a head of steam builds i'll really think first. my point is that just as you have your spread in NY - the ammount of knowledge you've got is a treasure trove of real nuts and bolts, exactly what is most valuable. it isn't necessarily shared unless called for - I bet you share/network answers for any kind of problem on a daily basis with neighbors and thats the real model."
old goat,
I'm not Marc M, my handle here is "seditious". I haven't a clue what the NY reference is about, nor the rest of your attempt at insult and/or derision.
Suffice to say that IMO, you have a tendency to ramble off on tangents. Just saying. Try not to take offense next time. Why not stay on-topic, since it already contains plenty of dead horses to beat upon?
Also, try to use a spell checker and your "Shift" key more often. ;^ )
To all,
Please ignore marc melchiori and his elk. There are quite a few of them
trolling progressive websites. Their only mission is to irritate and
possibly infuriate progressives and waste their time and energy. It is
obvious that it is futile to try to engage in any real serios discussion with the like of those trolls.
I guess thats what black anarch thinks of me a poor stupid dumb farmer. Heck, I dont have a decet vocabulary and a diploma in my den - therefore my viewpoint means squat. Well, I am middle class and more wise than most would think. I hate being hurt by folks who think they are better than me. maybe I should tend to the cattle tonight and let the rest of ya starve.
"T. Boone Pickens wants Gore as Energy Czar in an Obama Administration. It's no epiphany. Oilman Pickens understands the problem better than most people."
this is true. but, where was this chickenshit cocksucker ten years ago when he could have been USEFUL. why is he speaking up now? no doubt he has an ulterior motive. this prick cares about as much about the environment and the economy as exxon mobile.
Doom n Gloom July 27th, 2008 5:39 pm
A good one!
..................................................
Surely we can exchange views without resorting to racism and the "if you don't agree with me, you are an idiot" conversation.
We have differing views. But I'd hope we are all rowing in the same direction. With civility I hope.
As NativeSon says, thank you for your time.
last dregs - as to the problem. take a look at yourself. I never hurt you - yet you put me in your crosshairs. lets work together here and continue with the progress we dems have made so far.
lastdregs, I can't stand the elitists that call me a forest gump. I make no apologies for my up bringing and who I am. Sorry I don't go to starbucks and eat lobster tails with the NYC crowd. just a man with a point of view. When I signed up for this channel I though it was for folks with a democratic point of view who wanted to make things better. Would not be the first time i was wrong. it never ceases to amaze me how other folks can hate one another becasue they have a different opinion on things. I may not agree with someone, but when they need my help I give it to then because their part of my extended family - americans!
It's tax policy stupid! Middle Class people need to get some money in their hands fast. Reversing the Bush tax cuts, taxing wealth at a higher level, then providing relief to the middle class would result in immediate funds in the hands of people. Claiming more dependents would increase the money in the hands of people in their paychecks. It would all balance in the end.
Talk about exports... wow...the U.S.A sure knows how to sell a product! Never mind just selling weapons to everyone, the great democracy also sells bankruptcies ta boot.
But seriously folks, are you getting just a little bit excited about all the shit that's coming our way?
Personally, I love a good Sci-Fi as much as the next person - but holy shit - this is going to be reality check of fucking epic proportions!
Ever been to India? No? That's alright because it's on its way, complements of our sponsors, the good folks who brought you such memorable shows as "The Waltons" and "The 70 Trillion Dollar Pyramid".
Remember what you have for dinner tonight, better yet, take a picture of it, and put it in your wallet. Sometime in the near future, you and a couple of friends can pass it around and laugh till you cry.
Best respond as the Boy Scouts advise - be prepared!
Stick to those hippie values - don't waste, don't take risks, and foster good will in your community. Wait, aren't those conservative values? Nah. They tossed 'em away, we picked them up at the side of the road after they'd only be rained on once...
Already, the chickens come home to roost for "konservative" towns like Houston, where with any decrease in income, you can't afford to drive anywhere, and I guess you hafta starve in macho self-assured silence. "Kommie" towns like SanFran allow folks to struggle through carlessness with "hippie" things like villages in the city and walkable communities and transit and bike lanes. Now, the "konservatives" are the ones needing the government bail out, for they lived like this time would never come.
If you read stuff on this site, I reckon you're much much much much much much much more aware of how you should respond, than, say, a Fox news viewer, who prolly figgers the best thing to do is pick up a new pickup truck and big TV to get that 'ol worlds-strongest-economy humming along again...
http://www.michael-hudson.com
Michael Hudson was Kucinich's chief economic policy advisor. He also frequently contributes to Counterpunch:
http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson07152008.html
Marc M - thanks - no more screed. next time if a head of steam builds i'll really think first. my point is that just as you have your spread in NY - the ammount of knowledge you've got is a treasure trove of real nuts and bolts, exactly what is most valuable. it isn't necessarily shared unless called for - I bet you share/network answers for any kind of problem on a daily basis with neighbors and thats the real model.
Baby Bloc - bingo! thanks - restraint of corporations and the idea of gigantic export models. they are dysfunctional.
sorry - this is way too long - won't happen again
If i look at history, there is always somebody at the bottom of the western model. People who are different, defined as 'less', by race, education, religion or language etc... Marginalized countries with natural resources, try to develope the resources equitably (natural resources not being a God given right limited to the corporation) - get the media whine - like the treatment of president Chavez.
As these people say - "woah - not on my back!" the profit margin has to find another framework. Hey! How about credit?? 20% interest on a credit card. Not bad if you can get in on it some say ... How do we define usery? Where do we find it?
Thou shalt not have a local economy of exchange and barter (much less an national or international network - except banks and financial institutions). The printing of the money: legal tender>'alpha'- beginning, and name the system>> omega: The End. We choose this.
Massive corporations, say, Shell oil in Nigeria, or for example Aracruz Celuose, plants scores of thousands of hectares in eucalyptus for cellulose (toilet paper etc) was taken to court in Brazil. Its scandanavian stockholders pulled out years earlier when a group of Guarani Indians proved that AC acquired their ancestral land unconstitutionally. They were able to prove their case. If you look at AC website you will no longer find page after page denouncing the indians as "acculturated" and "supposed indians" - anyway... by AC claiming the right to say who is and who is not indian, it ...poof... disappears the Guarani and is no longer responsible for their 'marginality'/profit margin - can't do it without the land. At the same time AC presents a very heart warming account of the post profit programs they 'give' (tax deductible of course, a fiscal mechanism) to the marginalized people in the region. By the same token - AC has the opportunity by respecting the court finding, to redefine itself.
Someone else has a project of 'marginalized eucalyptus' for small scale regional rather than international export- growing as windbreaks at property edges - no agro toxins etc... just a different model. Imagine in your county, small eucalyptus groves specifically cultivated for the the county's toilet paper production. Where do imported things come from and what is their story?
The Guarani have an incredibly rich spiritual/intellectual/horticultural/ musical/dance/martial arts culture and they are also ancestral forest stewards - all integrated and sustainable (until their land is taken) but it must be said that they do not generate profits - they function according to a an ecology/economy of reciprocity. Do they want to be "consumers"? not primarily. Will they have to defend their right to their own seeds in court against the likes of Monsanto despite some strains hundreds - maybe thousands of years old?
So what is cause and what is effect? Marginalized people have not always been so. As they are defined as "marginalized" so is their way of knowing and living. Yet we are looking at increasing failure of the system that marginalized them in the first place, never shared what actually exists about them, so we have all been losing doubly.
Breaking the cycle of 'dis - understanding' might be one of our greatest challenges and gifts. Its a different way of functioning. For all the limitations and fears the current system claim exist, there are innumerable options to explore - some tousands of miles away, some next door.
"ending the distribution of profits to shareholders". Distribution of profits to shareholders has largely already ended. Many companies don't pay dividends to their stockholders. The ones that do usually pay a token dividend amounting to about 2% per year (and that is considered generous). Microsoft paid the first dividend in 2003, eight cents. Microsoft's latest dividend is up to eleven cents for a guarter, which is 1.7% per year at the current stock price. Exxon? 2% per year for Exxon and the stock price has been relatively flat for the last two years. Have Exxon's profits been relatively flat? Collapse of the stock market will not be because companies are not making a profit. The collapse is taking place because companies don't share the profits with stockholders. So, investors have found something else. Commodity futures, e.g. oil.
Marc:"dablackanarch - anytime ya want to come here up to the farm in MT Olivet and see how rich I am your welcome to it. Sounds like your the bigot - just because I'm from KY, never been to college and almost passed high school does not make me a ignorant person. I bet on any given day I could run street smart circles round ya when it comes to raising cattle, reading the seasons, and growing a cash crop. PS if ya ever do make it here be sure to bring your own TP - we just use cut up scraps of newsprint in the old three seater out back - and that aint no joke. PPS - can't read I'm jus a poor country cracker from the back hills of KY. PPPS - best neighbor in the world owns a 162 acre plot with a heafty head of cattle - guess what - he's as black and the ace of spades!"
First of all, I did not accuse you of bigotry. You yourself have stated that you are not very well educated and I merely reiterated that and acknowledged that, based on your inital post, it showed.
To showcase the obvious flaws of the Constitution doesn't make me a bigot. I could point out many others that have nothing to do with my race but, those I mentioned were dear and near to me as a black person.
Your personal wealth means nothing to me. As a matter of fact, you detailed what I would consider valuable about you when you listed your ability to grow food, farm, etc.
You should also be prepared for a backlash when you make a statement such as, "The founders gave us a near perfect system of government - at least the best that man can devise." I can't prove it but, the assertion that you're some troll on this site becomes hard to ignore, with you spouting obvious propaganda.
I will state my inital premise again. Fuck the Constitution. There is no government that you can tie down with a piece of paper. As for this government, please give Bush and Company what they deserve...a short drop and a sudden stop. Black Anarch out.
marc melchiori this is not the saturday night live audition thread...redirect your browser. "I don't like scapegoating people, races, sexes or entities, like corporations, for every problem we face." what, then do you perceive is the problem? FDR was an elitist that gave away a little to to avoid having the ruling class lose it all. i do not believe that your simplistic (to be nice) view is legit. i think you are trying to have fun playing forrest gump on a site that does not share your real perspective.
We are enslaved by the money system. The current economic crisis is a DEBT BOMB that has exploded. It is NOT the phoney 'liquidity crisis' that is being wheeled out by the very thieves-in-the-game themselves, to mislead the public as all conmen/hucksters/fraudsters do. 'Look over there, it's them that did it! Not me, I had nothing to do with it.'
The Bankers want people to be chained, and make them dance for their supper, for endless DECADES. So ways were arranged to enslave the public and suck even more 'money' to the top echelons, via Enron Accounting and Mark-to-Market Fraud, and 'Creative' Loan Structures, and the rigged-up CMO Packaged Off-Loading-to-the-Suckers of the Junk the banksters thus created.
Alan Greenspan, and now Ben 'we can't regulate derivatives and hedge funds or the players would leave the US and go elsewhere (take their stolen marbles and leave)' Bernanke, play major roles in this and the other recent debacles of finance (blowing bubbles with their NeoCon/Ayn Randian/Corpo-Fascist/MiltonFriedmaite outlook in exercising their total control of interest rates to banks, total control of bank rules, and total control of the American peoples' currency and money supply itself.
Read your money -it says "Federal Reserve Note" - so it is just a memo from Alan and Ben that says the bearer of the note can get another note just like it at the Ferderal Reserve printing press, controlled by Alan Greenspan and now Ben Bernanke, and their ilk. Perhaps soon, like Zimbabwe has, they will issue the one-hundred-billion dollar Federal Reserve note, so we can pay for a gallon of gas.
Alan and now Ben are in Thrall to banksters and are neocons themselves. For example, pal Sandy Weil of Citibank (with Robert Rubin of the Clintonistas) wanted to own a stockbrokerage, so Alan changed the rules, and retroactively had Congress change the laws, to let Sandy and all the other bankers do so. This had been against the law since the Great Depression... and voila, the neocons and freemarketeers and corpo-fascists have conjured up another one.
This debt-bomb has been ticking since Reagan started it up. Reagan needs to be pulled down as an icon much like the statues of Lenin were in Russia. But Reagan was actually very mild compared with the current gang of crooks, conmen, warnuts and neoconservative zealots running this nation now.
They have managed by their greed-is-good 'filosofy' to practically destroy the American Republic in seven years, and yet have the gall to nominate another of their corrupt, dunderheaded, ultrawealthy, warmongering kind in McSame.
McSame has, of all people, Carly Fiorina and Phil Gramm as his ecomomic team! Carly, who as a corporatist CEO was destroying HewlettPackard and outsourcing the computer industry from this country... and Phil, who in Congress had Enron deregulated to let it go out and rape and pillage California and its very own employees... and Phil, who in Congress has banking deregulated to let it go out and rape and pillage Amrica and Americans... these are his so-called 'economic advisors'.
These 'people' are two of the most foul, venal, corrupt people in the world. This is McSame's proud economic team... the SAME people who actually caused the downfall of America and the current economic crisis. And all Phil can do is say that the duped suckers/wageslaves whine too much when the whip is applied. He says this from his perch as a director at Union Bank of Switzerland, a firm now under federal investigation for enabling tax fraud upon the American nation. Yes, what a proud team McSame has.
Yes, we need a new paradigm to run society. Controlled Capitalism is now seen to be unable to move us forward with its accounting gimmicks without substance and its rigged game for the benefit of the controllers of 'money'. Command Communism is able to move forward only at too great a human cost. Command Corpratism, the free-market equivalent to command communism, is too greedy to serve the public instead of the avarice of its owners, the 1% of America that owns 95% of its equity.
First thing, truly Federalize the Federal Reserve and FannieMae and FreddieMac. The taxpayers are paying anyway. Then, have the Fed call in ALL the Federal and State debt from the rich flat-worlders and lender nations, and refinance it through the Fed 'Discount Window' at Zero interest to governments and NGOs. Thus, eliminating/saving the taxpayer-financed redistribution of wealth upwards to the rich. And have the FMs refinance all loans under their umbrella on simple reasonable flat terms to save only homeowner-family-occupied homes, not speculator houses, paying for this through the Fed 'Discount Window' as well.
Then, bust up the mega-banks through antitrust action (a la Adam Smith, who would destest the state of economic fraud and immoral gamesmanship going on now) which is sorely AWOL under the Republican corruption of government, divest the banks of stockbrokerages, and appoint Real regulators, not to pester with make-believe rules and paperwork compliances, but to set Social Cost Control on the naturally-greedy banksters and owners, who are the Real Perpetrators of the current crisis, and are the Real Criminals in this Tragedy of the Commons.
The model for the near future is Scandinavian Socialism. And the goal is to better even that excellent social system. There are ways that some have devised that I have read about would give us a more perfect Union; let us begin.
I watched this catastrophy coming together for months before 9/11.
I yelled at my elected officials until I'm horse to no avail.
I sure understand how Cassandra felt.
I think Henry Miller put his finger on it in Tropic of Cancer, we must reach complete degradation before we can rise again. There will be no Marshall Plan, no American Recovery Act after what we have done. Welcome to the New American Cemetery!
esarge - thanks agree - shake things up every so often. Thats what is so great with our system. we can change it if we have the will. the last big shake up in our favor was with FDR. Lets se if we can build of that model and move forward.
Old Goat - your screed of 2:46 PM is over-intellectualized. Save it perhaps to impress your professor or a book publisher, but it entirely misses the point here as have others' comments.
The problem is the Federal Reserve Bank, which is a private bank and not "federal" at all. Get rid of it and reinstate gold-backed currency that - according to the Constitution - only Congress can print and regulate. As Aaron Russo (among others) has said, do this and you'll solve 95% of the country's financial problems.
dablackanarch - anytime ya want to come here up to the farm in MT Olivet and see how rich I am your welcome to it. Sounds like your the bigot - just because I'm from KY, never been to college and almost passed high school does not make me a ignorant person. I bet on any given day I could run street smart circles round ya when it comes to raising cattle, reading the seasons, and growing a cash crop. PS if ya ever do make it here be sure to bring your own TP - we just use cut up scraps of newsprint in the old three seater out back - and that aint no joke. PPS - can't read I'm jus a poor country cracker from the back hills of KY. PPPS - best neighbor in the world owns a 162 acre plot with a heafty head of cattle - guess what - he's as black and the ace of spades!
The system is nothing more than a, now, rickety house of cards. If we try to "save" it, all we end up doing is postponing the inevitable. In order for that paradigm shift, that was mentioned, to happen the old system must collapse in on itself. That means a lot of people will experience tremendous suffering and while I don't wish what's coming on anyone, except the corporate tyrants in my darkest moods, in order for growth to happen, for progress, for IMPROVEMENT, the pain must proceed. The surgeon's knife hurts, but you don't tell him not to use it to cut out the cancer.
Re: Old Goat's post, my parse, and if I misunderstand, take it as another plea for clarity.
"It also seems important to keep in mind that the process of fiscalization of a society is dependent on 'demonization'of systemic thinking that does not reflect its own agenda.... The label is fast losing its stickum.
[Economic systems need opposing systems that are seen as evil (like capitalism/communism). Usary – making interest off loaned money – is only one option, but you're not allowed to talk about others. Corporate capitalism is supported by government, that's a kind of socialism. The author doesn't like it when humans are only seen as part of the consumer capitalist set-up.]
Marginalization remains a highly abstracted (aoh, isn't that a shame, poor, poor 'them') term when it is in fact the margin by which profit is sustained....
[Poverty is seen as sad, rather than as a planned part of corporations making more profit. Famous people and examples have been talking about this for a long time, it's becoming pretty clear.]
History and documentation are tremendously valuable right now particularly on the local level....
[Do your own local research and make and support your own local media. Maybe the mass media will wake up if things change.]
The gigantism has built so much momentum that it may very well run itself over the cliff in classic scapegoat pattern....
[The centralized/big corporate government system may collapse, since it's not solving it's problems, just blaming others. If that happens, try to focus on root causes (and fixes). Calmly work together with other local/regional folks worldwide to create a well-researched, compassionate future.]
There is a vast array of topical networks from international grassroots information exchanges....
[There are a lot of single-issue groups. They can work together on the "big picture."]
I am reminded of the bumper sticker "envision whirled peas" - a sense of humor and seeing the crinkling of various forms of rigidity in rhetoric as a crack in a sterile cosmic egg - with the real macoy having an opportunity to emerge.
[It's good if we can take a joke, and learn from it along the way.]
Participating in emergence of change calls for a perspective that is different from reacting to and being induced to shoring up a system in distress....
[Helping make change is different from reacting to problems. Change comes from people gradually (even under crisis) coming to listen to each other and see ways to work together.]
Local can mean not only around the block, but in other communities and on other continents as well. The model for paternalistic post profit 'giving' can be more 'giving back' of resources in practices of restraint within concepts of sustainability and sufficiency.
[Ummm... The world is "local." Rich people might give poor communities back the money they stole? In a restrained, sustainable, sufficient way.]
Marc, don't worry about not understanding old goat - he is rambling terribly, thinking he is clever and esoteric, but really the information density is very low.
But seriously, this mindless worshiping of the founding fathers and their document, does not help. Our constitution and bill of rights is actually quite antiquated in some ways. It was groundbreaking at the time, but as dablackanarch points out it has flaws, and it could not have anticipated the developments we have been experiencing.
Also, It may just be impossible to design an incorruptible system, no matter how smart you are. It could be that the elite class is going to figure out how to make any system work to their advantage, and if we the people want any fairness, we may just have to shake things up every couple hundred years.
The USA cannot fix its problems because it's too busy fixing Iraq's and Afghanistan's problems.
Marc: "its never to late. The founders gave us a near perfect system of government - at least the best that man can devise. Lets see if we have the moral courage to return to a constitutional republic. I think its within us to do so - at least lets give it a try if not for ourselves than for my gaggle of kids and yours."
I'm sorry but your admitted lack of education is showing. Our so-called republic isn't even close to the best system of government and, in fact, wouldn't even have included representation for you if you weren't a land holding, rich white man.
I don't understand all this garbage about 'reclaiming' the Constitution. In it, my ancestors started off as counting as 3/5ths of a person, for the purpose of Census' only. The 14th Amendment to that 'goddamned piece of paper' was supposed to grant my ancestors full citzenship rights. Instead, it was used in the courts to give corporations 'personhood' and my people were still denied even simple human rights.
Fuck the Constitution. Rich folks have ignored it anyway. Why do all of us poor keep acting as if the way we live now is the best and only way there is? Do yourself a favor, Marc. Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. Learn how you've been fed, swaddled up in, and bathed in our cultural story and you'll see why you've espoused a system that was never designed for you to begin with.
OLD GOAT - please I'm from Mt Olivet KY, no college, no Harvard barely high school. Ya lost me on the first sentence. Can anyone translate. In other words what the hell did you just say?
Danny Schechter has been warning about this for years. I am sure it is of no satisfaction for him to have been right. We were warned.
It also seems important to keep in mind that the process of fiscalization of a society is dependent on 'demonization'of systemic thinking that does not reflect its own agenda. It demands that it and only it represent the alpha and omega. This is an earmark of 'usury'. By negating the full breadth of dynamics the manner(s) in which they can be exercised can be limited to 'taking' and the modes of reciprocal interaction remain unexplored. We have begun to recognize and articulate the socialism of corporate fiscalization and the 'capitalism' of 'the consumer'. I bristle and grimmace when our knowledgable mid-levels speak in the conflated jingoism of human as economic unit. The label is fast losing its stickum.
Marginalization remains a highly abstracted (aoh, isn't that a shame, poor, poor 'them') term when it is in fact the margin by which profit is sustained. Today the marginalization of 'third world' societies has begun to unveil in a history that from Mark Twain, Zinn, Eduardo Galleano, the Navajo Court system, Naiomi Kline and innumerable others have articulated and documented.
History and documentation are tremendously valuable right now particularly on the local level. Conventional mass media lacks the capacity to address local and regional issues with sifficiency - though if they wake up it would seem to be the wave of the future (post-gigantism).
The gigantism has built so much momentum that it may very well run itself over the cliff in classic scapegoat pattern. If that proves to be the case, our challenge would be to keep a keen and very specific eye on not mistaking effects for causes as things shake out. This why cool heads, documentation, dialogue and compassion will also demand that we remain open to the same occuring in innumerable 'local/regional' contexts and circumstances world wide.
There is a vast array of topical networks from international grassroots information exchanges on water, local organic sciences, community program development, legislative inniatives and activism, etc. it is simply a matter of defining one's focus. These are emergent and still developing - try looking at Catalytic Communities. Over the next year there will probably be an international web of such resources interconnecting.
I am reminded of the bumper sticker "envision whirled peas" - a sense of humor and seeing the crinkling of various forms of rigidity in rhetoric as a crack in a sterile cosmic egg - with the real macoy having an opportunity to emerge.
Participating in emergence of change calls for a perspective that is different from reacting to and being induced to shoring up a system in distress. It occurs gradually, even under crisis circumstances, it does not divide; it is about listening and respect; it is interdisciplinary engagement and looking for opportunities to engage positive reciprocal development.
Local can mean not only around the block, but in other communities and on other continents as well. The model for paternalistic post profit 'giving' can be more 'giving back' of resources in practices of restraint within concepts of sustainability and sufficiency.
its never to late. The founders gave us a near perfect system of government - at least the best that man can devise. Lets see if we have the moral courage to return to a constitutional republic. I think its within us to do so - at least lets give it a try if not for ourselves than for my gaggle of kids and yours.
Mark,
I wouldn't care if we lost ESPN forever.
"I just hope we are smart enough to be forever vigilant and not become to fat, dumb and lazy."
Check again, I think it's already too late.
If you've gotten all the way down this thread and still haven't clicked Gail's link above to the article in the UK's Daily Telegraph, do it now -- you'll read about a great way to solve a banking crisis without fleecing the taxpayers!
How interesting that this info had never showed up in the U.S. corporate media.
That nutty guy that once advocated Social credit (and helped lead to the birth of Social Credit parties here in Canada, which have since vanished) does not seen so nutty after all.
His proposal involved no currency/money at all.
I always thought it pie in the sky..I might have to look at it again.
PK
Imploding economy? For the rich, who are always protected in so-called difficult times, we see our representation lurch to shore up potential break downs in their entitlements.
Corporations carry out some of the most horrific human rights abuses of modern times, and they are exceptionally difficult to hold to account, additionally, they happen to run the government.
When our notorious republic claimed that they had to take "off the head of the serpent" in Iraq with cruise missiles, the goal was to brutally and quickly affect change, or to violently liquidate a corrupting world influence. No rational US citizen would agree with applying this same litmus test to our own haplessly corrupt management, but how long will the US masses continue to tolerate their own government's contempt and hostility?
Wilmoor, thats a little broad brushed - is it not? have some balance, not everyone is out to get you.
Imagine if we the people lost ESPN for a day or two. Then we would really see a nation of whiners! We have got it so good in this nation that we take for granted simple things like indoor plumbing and clean drinking water. Even the poorest foks in eastern KY or the MISS delta have those things and TV and VCR's and cell phones. We have very little to complain about. I just hope we are smart enough to be forever vigilant and not become to fat, dumb and lazy.
marc melchiori - the problem is that the corporations have bought and paid for the government. They don't go there to air their grievances, and ask for help - they go there to tell their bought and paid for flunkies what they expect them to do.
This article presents a good example of how to deal with the housing crisis. Borrowers need to recognize that they screwed up buying more house than they could afford, and lenders need to recognize that the house they lent money on is worth a whole lot less. Once those two parties recognize their errors then they need to sit down and renegotiate the terms of the loan. It's in neither party's interest to have the home foreclosed on, so a voluntary agreement to compromise is the mature thing to do.
In addition, nobody should be asked to pay for another's mistakes. That is, we the taxpayers should not be asked to bail out Fannie Mae and Freedie Mac, which is now virtually guaranteed. They took risks and we are going to pay the price. I resent living my life responsibly, only to have to bail out somebody who didn't do likewise. If such people cannot renegotiate their mistakes as I described above, then they should suffer the consequences, not I.
Unfortunately, we seem to have the childish mentality today that we don't have to suffer the consequences of our actions. If we trip and fall, it's somebody else's fault and we should sue them for damages. If we get in over our heads financially, then the government should bail us out. If we do poorly in school, then somebody should just give us a good job anyway, just because we deserve it. That's childish mentality that only seems to apply in the U.S.
In some ways, I agree with Phil Gramm that we are a "nation of whiners."
Dave