I avoid places where those Big Yellow WMDs have been used and I will not hold their stock either directly or in mutual funds.

lol, yes, of course.

A BULLDOZER IS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!!!!

You FOOLS. Don't think for a second this is going to make me forget about the latest barbaric arab attack in jews in Jerusalem. Its time to consolidate that entire city under israeli control.

I am sorry. This article is ridiculous.

I can think of so many worse things that both sides have access to. The AK47 for example. Specifically designed with the sole purpose of taking human life.

A bulldozer is not so designed.

And there is no mention of the percentage of Caterpillar's sales that go to perfectly legitmate uses, or even the number of times a given bulldozer was used in construction before some madman or asshole or army got hold of it in order to use it as a destructive machine.

You want to know the biggest effect that caterpillar has had? It is their coal-digging and strip mining equipment that is capable of leveling even the tallest mountains in a month with concerted effort. Then all that coal gets thrown up into the atmosphere as C02.

The new climate the planet is adopting is going to cause a multitude more deaths than all previous wars put together!

But again, I STILL wouldn't blame caterpiller. We as a people have, after all, voted out of convenience rather than demanding more serious attention be paid to our scientists. But Oh my GAWD! Those scientists tell us things we Just Don't Want To Hear!

Sorry folks. I'm as progressive as they come, but let's assign blame right where it belongs, with the people who commit these crimes and with the people who cannot seem to get off their butts, engage their brains, and do the right thing in the first place.

Gaza And The Warsaw Ghetto

same place

different time

while the world stood by

genocide

live

Thanks to Haaretz, the world can get editorials by peace activists like Gideon Levy that we can't get in the US.

We must not forget the American Girl who was in Palestine and killed by a Caterpillar bulldozer driven by a Jew. She was protecting a house owned by a Palestinian physician. Please read the story:

http://www.jabpage.org/posts/corrie.html

Here is her memorial page:

http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

The Jews started using this weapon so it isn't surprising the Palestinians would retaliate. After all, Obama said in so many words that Israelis have the right to defend their homes, children and family from falling bombs from the sky. Well the Palestinians, are humans as well, and should be granted those same rights to protect their homes, family and children. Rectify what you say Obama who speaks with forked tongue and justifies killing of Palestinians. Humans are equal and all have a right to live and defend their right to live.

physicscitizen July 24th, 2008 1:20 pm

"I am sorry. This article is ridiculous.

I can think of so many worse things that both sides have access to. The AK47 for example. Specifically designed with the sole purpose of taking human life."

Would you care to include F-16's that only one side has as well? Or attack helicopters?

No, sir, you are being rediculous.

Israel is a terrorist state. America is a terrorist state. If the deaths of one million three hundred thousand Iraqi's for oil is not terrorism, then what is?

The Palestinians discovered the bulldozer quite late. What is good for us is good for them.

As Mike Davis has shown in Buda's Wagon: A Brief History of the Car Bomb, it was the Zionist Stern Gang that introduced the car bomb to the Middle East:

In what is certain to be a revelation for many supporters of the state of Israel, Davis explains the car bomb's modern origins in the tactics of the Zionist terrorists known as the Stern Gang. This group, composed of men--some who went on to help rule Israel--was ruthless in its application of car bombs. They genuinely did not seem to care who died in the explosions they caused, although they preferred them to be Arab. It was the success of their terror campaign that helped "cleanse" Palestine of Palestinians so that Israelis could take the lands. The Stern Gang's success would also prove to cause what we nowadays call blowback. Indeed, car bombs set off in civilian spaces have been a favorite tactic of the Palestinian resistance to Israel ever since its founding. Davis relates this story, too.

Also an excerpt from David Hirst's The Gun and the Olive Branch on who first introduced techniques such as blowing up of entire buildings to that region:

If, in their preference for hit-and-run guerrilla tactics, the Arabs were spurred by folk-memories of the 'assassins' or the tribal ghazzia, the Jews introduced an urban, and far more effective, terrorism that was more in the tradition of Russian Nihilists or the Anarchists of Spain.

Peace Through Superior Firepower

@sl63

Glad you raised this. Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi (aka Stern Gang) members on 14 February 1949 and in 1980 honored the group by instituting the Lehi ribbon, a military decoration which may be worn by the organization's former members.

State sponsored terrorism?

Jews apparently are immune to their own insights ......... Jeremiah.

zaz - you're so right. I love Ha'aretz, which always has insightful commentary on the situation without the whitewashing that happens by the time the news gets to American media. It's kind of like the years I lived along the Canadian border and I had to watch their news to see pictures of our soldiers coming home in body bags...

By the way, there is a RachelCorrie Soccer Tournament in Gaza, donate if you can.

The creation of Israel by the West was a huge mistake.

Overall, the article is good... but take a look at some of the language used:

"Palestinians' murderous bulldozer and the Israeli bulldozer"

As usual, the Palestinian has the word "murderous" attached to them...

"small backhoe the Palestinian terrorist was driving and the fearsome D9 driven by Israel Defense Forces soldiers"

Again, Palestinians are 'terrorists' while the Israelis are "soldiers".

The use of language is very powerful... you'll see it's the same everywhere.

Another useful link for donations:
www.rachelcorriefoundation.org

As I've said before, Caterpillar Corp. is equivalent to gas chamber manufacturers during the Nazi regime in Germany.

Americans are indoctrinated to think they need giant corporations to build things like bulldozers. How else could these giant corporations be sustained? We're working to break down the indoctrination. Americans are learning to re-think industry, break it down into much smaller enterprises and putting them in the local community to serve the local economy. In this environment, the product will not be put to evil uses because the producers will be held to much higher ethical standards, which are easily maintained in small empowered communities. The heightened ethical standard is dependent on this specific combination of community characteristics - small, empowered. If it's too large, it becomes corrupt. If it is disempowered, it becomes hopeless. The plan is to diminish and eventually eliminate these monstrous corporations like Caterpillar, pillars of a fascist society. Localism is the way. Small, empowered communities. Small independent farmers, craftsmen, merchants. We don't need "efficiencies of scale". We don't need capital.

Welcome to the world of fantasy, where Israel is always viewed as a poor victim, just seeking to live in "peace."

so they kill a few hundred or thousand Palestinians and the world yawns.

We have all become WMD's, more interested in what Paris or Lindsay is up to than what is happening to our brothers and sisters in Occupied Palestine.

If Jesus Christ was around today, instead of being crucified by the Jews, they'd just run him over with a bulldozer.

Down the cobblestone street above the baker's shop, glass shatters.

Men drag the baker and his many sons away.

In the square, the Viennese drink good beer. They pay no attentions to the far-away clouds.

Unforgiven: There is a HUGE difference between an F16 and a bulldozer.

And it was quite a ridiculous leap to assume that somehow, because selling bulldozers doesn't bother me, that supplying the Israeli war machine with cluster bombs and F-16's does.

Have you no appreciation of the difference between them?

The person who kills with a bulldozer is just as much a murderer as the person who kills by any other means. Go after those people. And those nations, like Israel that commit crimes against humanity.

You can kill a person with a hammer too, and Israelis might well use hammers to kill palestinians in their jails all the time.

I claim it is ridiculous to then go off and blame Craftsmen tools for making hammers.

It's exactly this kind of silly diversion away from the true abuses of humanity which handed the right wing-nuts a perfect way to brand all progressives as stupid and impractical. When, in fact, human rights and dignity are ultimately intelligent and highly effective at combating the terrorism so feared by the reactionaries.

So, If I ever need a bulldozer at some point, I'm going to hire a guy with a caterpiller.

But I'm also going to fight like hell with my representatives against the Jewish lobby and continued unrestricted support for that apartied state called Israel.

These are NOT incongruous positions to hold.

physicscitizen July 24th, 2008 1:20 pm

Thanks for the sanity.

Ariel_Sharon July 24th, 2008 12:56 pm

I seem to remember that Jerusalem was supposed to be a shared city with free access to all religions?

Gaza And The Warsaw Ghetto

These two bear no resemblence to each other. Not in size, not in population nor in any other way. An absurd comparison.

What the F is Levy spouting about "Israel might be able to go on claiming that it will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East"

When Perez LIED to the world with that BS in 1986, the cat was all ready out of the bag, for Mordechai Vanunu provided the PROOF that Israel was already nuclear with his 2 rolls of film documenting Israel's clandestine underground WMD facility which has NEVER received an IAEA inspection!

In 1986, Vanunu was a low tech worker in Israel's underground WMD facility in the Negev, but the sign out front back them still proclaimed it was a Textile Plant. All employees signed a secrecy agreement to never speak about what they did in the Dimona, and all jobs were compartmentalized.

Because Vanunu was a good worker, he was cross trained in many areas and woke up to the fact that he was but a cog in the making of weapons of mass destruction. Without talking to family or friends, he decided totally on his own to document the facts underground in the Dimona nuclear weapons plant by photographing the evidence.

Vanunu easily obtained the keys to the restricted areas after they had been carelessly left in the shower room by a supervisor. Vanunu shot two rolls of film but did not develop them until ten months later while in Sydney, Australia and just days after being baptized a Christian.

The photos were published in the London Sunday Times just as Vanunu was being kidnapped, clubbed, drugged and bound by the Mossad in Rome and then flung onto an Israeli ship heading home.

Instead of Israel being grateful for the alert to their inadequate security in the nuclear reactor facility, Israel tried Vanunu for treason in a closed door trial and locked him up for 18 years, most all of it in solitary. Vanunu has not set foot into the Dimona in 22 years and International Inspectors never have.

On April 21, 2004, Vanunu was released from Ashkelon Prison, but still not free.

He has lived under the draconian 1945 British Mandate State of Emergency Regulations, which forbids him from leaving Israel and speaking to media and foreigners.

After WW II, Attorney Yaccov Shapiro, who later became Israel's Minister Of Justice, described the Emergency Defense Regulations which denies Vanunu the inalienable rights of freedom of speech and movement as "unparalleled in any civilized country: there were no such laws in Nazi Germany."[ N.S. Ateek, Justice and Only Justice p.34]

I met Vanunu for the first time in June 2005, and was curious about his childhood and how and why he-a secular Jew existentialist became a Christian. He filled me in on all of that and much more:

"This administration tells me I am not allowed to speak to foreigners, the Media, and the world. But I do because that is how I prove my true humanity to the world.

"The Israelis have 200 atomic weapons and they accuse the Palestinians and Muslims of terrorism. The Dimona is 46 years old; reactors last 25 to 30 years. The Dimona has never been inspected and Israel has never signed the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty but all the Arab states have.

"Twenty years ago when I worked there they only produced when the air was blowing towards Jordan ten miles away. No one knows what is happening now. The world needs to wake up and see the real terrorism is the occupation and the Palestinians have lived under that terror regime for 40 years.

"It's very sad that Hilary Clinton went to the Jewish Wailing Wall and forgot the real crying wall is the Palestinian wall; the apartheid wall, the wall is not for defense, but to keep this conflict permanent.

"The only way to peace is peace; the only way is nonviolence. The only answer to Israeli nuclear weapons, their aggression, occupation and oppression, and the wall and refugee camps is to answer them with truth and a peaceful voice. When I became the spy for the world, I did it all for the people of the world. If governments do not report the truth, and if the media does not report the truth, then all we can do is follow our consciences. Daniel Ellsberg did, the woman from Enron did, and I did. The United States needs to wake up and see the truth that Israel is not a democracy, unless you are a Jew. Israel is the only country in the Middle East where America can right now find nuclear weapons.

"America can also find where basic human rights have been denied Christians: right here in Israel. The time has come for the United States to see the truth of Zionism. It began as a secular nationalist movement, not a religious one. Then some Christians believed that when Israel became a nation, it was the beginning of the second coming. They are deluded if they believe peace will come through atomic weapons. Atomic weapons are holocaust weapons. Christians should be the first people against them.

"My human rights have been denied me because I am a Christian. When I was on trial, I was treated just like a Palestinian: no human rights at all, and cruel and unusual punishment, all because I told the truth. The government spread slander about me, that I was a homosexual, that I hated Jews, that I wanted fame and money. What I did was sacrifice my life for the truth. In prison, I really began to feel like Jesus and Paul. When Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple, it was like me in Dimona, exposing the Israelis' dirty secrets. I felt like Paul, being thrown in prison for speaking the truth.

"The only real way to worship is in loving one's enemies. It was not easy to love my tormentors; it was only because I felt so much like Jesus crucified on the cross, and as if I was crucified in prison, that I could do it. It was not ever easy. I have forgiven but not forgotten anything, and I never will.

"In Israel, a life sentence is twenty-five years. Even murderers go free after seventeen. They imposed the same restrictions on me that Palestinians receive: no human rights at all; no phone; no visitors, except family, and only through an iron grill; no vacation; no holidays; and no gifts. Even murderers get out for vacations! I was locked up for eighteen years and still cannot go on vacation; I cannot leave, and that is all I am asking for, just to leave here.

"For eighteen years in prison, they even attempted to control my thoughts on paper. I would write exactly what I wanted and they would censor words like kidnapped and atomic bomb. They would show me how they chopped up my letters, but I continued to write exactly what I wanted. They held my body, but never my spirit or mind.

"Israel is only a democracy if you are a Jew."

The legend of Vanunu continues to grow and WAWA is FREELY streaming video interviews with V from 2005, 2006 and 2008 under Vanunu Archives:
WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

MORE on Caterkiller's and those who are DOING SOMETHING!

"We all need a psychiatrist, but we cannot afford one, so we do activism."-Ashraf Abu Moch, Israeli Palestinian, ICAHD Volunteer.

I was last in Jerusalem, last July and attended ICAHD/Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions summer kick off.

ICAHD is a non-violent do something group opposed to the occupation of Palestine which resists the Israeli demolitions of Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories.

ICAHD has committed to rebuild the 18,000 homes the Israeli government has destroyed which has resulted in creating 18,000 extended homeless families who legally own their land.

According to international law, the Fourth Geneva Convention forbids home demolitions in occupied territories and demands that the occupiers maintain the status quo and not pilfer the resources of the indigenous population.

Indigenous Palestinians are denied building permits in the Orwellian democracy of Israel while USA fundamentalist Christian churches financially support and pray for the illegal settlements/colonies which have been erected on legally owned Palestinian land.

In contrast to the misdeeds of empire, last July twenty five internationals, dozens of Israelis and scores of Palestinians created a community upon the rocky barren land of the Hamdan family of nine and handed the keys of the house over to Hassan Yussef Hamdan and his family fourteen days later.

The land has legally been owned by the Hamdan clan with the deeds filled-out in Hassan Yussef's great-grandfather's name, during the Ottoman Empire. The oldest son, Mohammed's grandmother, Um Mohammad addressed the media in Arabic which was translated in English by Nadia another ICAHD volunteer, while the foundation of the house was being laid:

"We own twenty-five pieces of land, twenty-five meters is one piece. After building our home here, we received papers demanding we demolish our own home. We got a lawyer in Tel Aviv, and after paying $10,000.00 she did nothing. The soldiers came under our window and we hired another lawyer and had to pay 70,000 shekels within two hours to hold off the soldiers. The soldiers came back two more times, after more negotiations the soldiers came back a third time and destroyed our home."

ICAHD spokesmen, Meir Margalit admitted, "We are here because we are embarrassed and ashamed of our government. A decent person cannot handle what this government puts innocent people through. We are doing this for both sides; for the innocent families and to keep the moral values of Judaism alive."

American Israeli, Aviva Joseph wrapped it up when she informed the crowd, "We are here building on the 9th day of Av, the day the Jewish Temple was destroyed…I was born in Chile into an Orthodox Zionist home. Both my parents are Holocaust survivors. When I was ten I use to go to Bethlehem, but after the first intifada, things began closing down; physical walls and psychological walls. I lived in Gilo, some call it a settlement, some a neighborhood and I lived in a small box with my own myth. Now I live in California and things you see from there you can't see here and other things you must come here to see what cannot be seen anywhere else. I love Israel but until I began listening to the voices of the marginalized did I see I was living my own myth. The work is not just in the head, but in the heart; opening both sides to a new paradigm with compassion. It must be like hydrogen and oxygen the sides coming together; who could have thought that would make water?"

Jeff Halper, American Israeli, founder and coordinator of ICAHD and a twenty-first century prophet was unable to be at the site due to a family emergency, but on March 17, 2006, the 7th day of my third journey to Israel Palestine, Jeff greeted my group of nearly one hundred Internationals attending a Sabeel/Arabic for THE WAY, reality tour through the West Bank, in the East Jerusalem YMCA conference room with, "I don't want to depress you too much but the issue of the occupation is a global issue that transcends boundaries and Israel Palestine impacts all global realities...We have a country created by the UN and supported by the USA that has a brutal occupation while International Law defines occupation as a temporary situation.

"When you incorporate occupied territories, highways, settlements and use resources it is all illegal according to the Fourth Geneva Convention which states the status quo must be retained so that negotiations can happen. Unilateral actions are illegal. The occupying power is responsible for those under its control.

"Tony Blair said 70% of all the conflicts in the world can be traced back to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. What gives us hope is that as this conflict worsens maybe Europe will figure out that American policies are against their interests and intervene...This conflict impacts the global community and especially everyone in the USA.

"If we do fix this conflict it would be a tremendous step forward in global reconciliation...This whole issue is based on Human Rights and it is a global issue requiring global intervention. …Israel is not a democracy, it is an ethnocracy: full rights to Jews, but not Palestinians."

After our group said goodbye to Jeff and hi to Angela, another dedicated ICAHD volunteer, we went for a reality tour of east Jerusalem. We witnessed the remains of many demolished homes and saw the tents where the home owners now lived. Angela informed us, "There are forty-two illegal settlements in the Muslim, Christian and Armenian quarters of Jerusalem. The only green area for children to play will soon have a high rise for the settlers which will be 7 meters taller than the walls of the Old City...Out of site of most Israelis is the Hebronization of east Jerusalem. The Wall has been deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice but America continues to allow it to grow. The wall is way over the Green Line proving it is not about security but about grabbing Palestinian land. Israel's policy of Quiet Transfer: getting rid of the Palestinians is a huge humanitarian crisis.

"There is an advertisement that runs in the USA that reads: 'Have a Holiday Home in Jerusalem.' The ad does not mention this home is 100% ILLEGAL! It is clear how the wall zig zags that it is not about security but about grabbing the maximum land with minimal Palestinian occupation."

When I returned to Israel Palestine in October 2006, over sixty internationals gathered in Jerusalem for another ICAHD tour. Jeff informed us:

"It has been said that the Israelis do not love this land, they just want to possess it. There have been three stages to make this occupation permanent. The first was to establish the facts on the ground; the settlements. There are ½ million Israeli's and four million Palestinians here. They have been forced into Bantustan; truncated mini states; prison states. It is apartheid and Bush and Hillary are both willing collaborators.

"In 1977, Sharon came in with a mandate, money and resources to make the Israeli presence in the West Bank irreversible. The second stage began in April 2004 when America approved the Apartheid/Convergence/Realignment Plan and eight settlement blocs. This is just like South Africa! The Bush Sharon letter exchange guaranteed that the USA considers the settlements non-negotiable. The Convergence Plan and The Wall create the borders and that is what defines Bantustans. Congress ratified the Bush plan and only Senator Byrd of West Virginia voted no and nine House Representatives.

"Israel has set up a matrix of control; a thick web of settlements guaranteed to make the occupation permanent by establishing facts on the ground. Israel denies there is an occupation, so everything is reduced to terrorism. It is our job to insist upon the human rights issue, for occupied people have International Law on their side."

I asked Jeff if the settlements were in actuality colonies; meaning foreigners had invaded and set up residence in another's territory. He agreed and added that, "When Jerusalem was controlled by Jordan, the East side was 6 sq. km. Since 1967, Israel has added 64 km. The West side was 38 sq. km until '67 and is now 108 sq. km's. Israel plans to develop 17 settlements. Israeli policy is to maintain a 72% Jewish and 28% Arab population. Palestinians cannot get building permits to build upon their legally owned land. The Arab land has been re-zoned as green space, and the green space will be re-zoned for the settlements. Every single Palestinian home in Jerusalem has a demolition order. The entire West Bank has been zoned as agricultural land by Israel, and that will also be re-zoned again for more settlements."

Orwellian doublespeak has also been employed in the USA government and media to turn the illegal colonies: for all the settlements are considered illegal according to International Law, into neighborhoods.

A new highway has already begun to link all the settlements in a ring around the Old City of Jerusalem. The Eastern Ring Road will have bridges for Israelis but is just another wall against the Palestinians. As we rode past acres of olive trees that had been chopped off by the Israeli army, on our way to the house made for peace, Jeff stated, "I don't just have a political problem with this Judiaization of the Old City, it is ecologically and environmentally offensive."

I add it also is spiritually impoverished. The raping and pillaging of what is claimed holy ground refutes and denies the biblical meaning of dominion. The ancients understood dominion meant to nurture, love and protect and the destruction of Palestinian homes, the stealing and destroying of their legal property, is an abomination.

We concluded that day at the Beit Arabiya Peace House, which is at the crossroads of Areas A, B and C and which has been demolished and rebuilt four times and the owner has just received his fifth demolition order.

Beit Arabiya is the name of the home of the Arabiya family with seven children that has been demolished four times by the Israeli government and rebuilt four times by the efforts of ICAHD and the JCHR/Jurist Center for Human Rights, a Palestinian NGO focused on legal advocacy for Palestinians in the Jerusalem area.

The home has become a meeting place for Israelis, Palestinian and International peace activists and is the cornerstone and intersecting point of Areas A, B, and C.

The smallest of the three is Area A, which is under Palestinian authority. Areas B and C are under Israeli control. Since 1967 over 18,000 Palestinian families in the occupied territories have been left homeless due to home demolitions. According to Jeff Halper, the reasons for these home demolitions are purely political: to confine the 3 ½ million residents of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza into small, crowded, impoverished and disconnected enclaves.

The Beit Arabyia home/Peace Center's closest neighbor is a soon to be dismantled Bedouin camp. The Israeli government's policy of "Quiet Transfer" will mean extinction for the nomadic Bedouins for they have been denied the inalienable right to move about to graze their dwindling herds. On a hill in front of the Arabyia home/Peace Center is the newly erected Sheen Bet [similar to USA FBI] prison and interrogation center. A new portion of the Ring Road which will connect the illegal settlements/colonies runs between the two and The Apartheid Wall is in full frontal brutal view.

Upon the wall of the home is a mural donated by the North American Workers Against the USA occupation of Iraq and the Israeli occupation of Palestine. The mural depicts Rachel Corrie, the American who was run over by a Caterpillar bulldozer in Gaza when she stood up to defend the home of a pharmacist with five children, and a pregnant Palestinian woman of ten who was also killed in Gaza. The angelic images of the two women float above a depiction of a USA made Caterpillar bulldozer tipped to one side and flanked by tanks and weapons of destruction. On both sides of the weapons of destruction are many people. A railroad track reminds the viewer that prior to 1948, Jews and Palestinians once worked together in peaceful solidarity to build a railroad.

The Arabyia home/Peace Center is the cornerstone of the village of Anata and the Shufat refugee camp, in the very area where the prophet Jeremiah in the 6th century B.C. critiqued the violent conflicts in the Mid East, which were already old news: "I hear violence and destruction in the city, sickness and wounds are all I see." [Jeremiah 6:7]

The Arabyia home/Peace Center is a visible persistent witness of hope and solidarity that stands because of the cooperation and unity of locals, Israelis and Internationals with one mind, one heart and with The Great Spirit on their side.

Mohammad Alatar, film producer of The Ironwall addressed our group after we broke bread and ate a typical Palestinian feast prepared by the Arabiya family, he said:

"I am a Muslim Palestinian American and when my son asked me who my hero was I took three days to think about it. I told him my hero is Jesus, because he took a stand and he died for it. What really needs to be done is for the churches to be like Jesus; to challenge the Israeli occupation and address the apartheid practices as moral issues. Even if every church divested and boycotted Israel it would not harm Israel. After the USA and Russia, Israel is the third largest arms exporter in the world. It is a moral issue that the churches must address."

LEARN MORE:

http://www.icahd.org

The Iron Wall:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4866316426876380615

The wall is going to bring peace to the border regardless of if it is a land grab or not. Since Palestinians refuse to stop shooting rockets and morters, I actually support the wall. Once it is finished and then built along the Gaza, the wars will be over and then negotiations can start. Of course at that point the Palestinian hand will be pretty weak.

Palestine can end this any time they simply quit fighting.

Everyone states they have a right to defend themselves and of course that is right, but there is always a human cost to violence, in this case the wall. It also raises the corrolary that if the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves, then so do the Israelis. The only way to have peace is to get both sides to stop shooting and the Palestinains have not done that wile the Israelis have over and over again.

I find it rather sad that everyone here is so blind as to think that there shouldn't be peace till the Palestinians have "justice" while ignoring that that would be an "injustice" to the Israelis and therefor no peace.

Peace has to preceed justice or justice will never happen.

You can actually donate money to the IDF and earmark it for the wall. I think that may be the best money you can contribute for peace at this time because it is going to end in the absolute separation of the two groups for the forseeable future.

The Jews killed Jesus Christ? ouch, that one hurt

>>Gaza And The Warsaw Ghetto

These two bear no resemblence to each other. Not in size, not in population nor in any other way. An absurd comparison.<<

Truely. An absurd comparison. The Germans exterminated and leveled the Warsaw Ghetto. The Israelis, no matter how harsh, have never exterminated anyone. Simply hyperbole on the part of children with no real facts to argue.

exterminate means kill---right?

Thomas More said: "These two bear no resemblence to each other. Not in size, not in population nor in any other way. An absurd comparison."

I disagree... In the Warsaw ghetto, there was ~ 400,000 people... In Gaza, the population is 1.4 million. Both are/were walled in. Both have/had massive malnutrition and shortages of pretty much everything. Both were grossly over-crowded. While Gaza is much bigger, the suffering of the people isn't any less. The Ghetto was 1.3 sq miles while Gaza is 139 sq miles, but 3x the population. The only thing missing really, is the trains taking the inhabitants to the gas chambers... You're splitting hairs trying to justify the siege of Gaza by saying that the Jews of Warsaw suffered SO MUCH MORE than the Palestinians. I'm not saying the conditions are identical, but there is great similarity. I would argue that BOTH are/were crimes against humanity. I hardly find absurdity in any of this.

The 'fact' that the Jews have 'suffered so much persecution', and yet they are now the ones doing the persecution, that is what is absurd Thomas. But Oh No... nobody has suffered as much as the Jews right?

I'm glad everybody is so sure who's right here. I'm still trying to find out what each side wants. Especially the Palestinians.

Goose2 said: "Simply hyperbole on the part of children with no real facts to argue."

I say: Don't insult my intelligence fuck-wad. By discounting what I'm trying to say with simple conjecture, is sad on your part.

Physicscitizen,

You seem to be unaware that Israel purchases from Caterpillar, special, bullet-proof glass and armored cab-equipped D9's for use in the systematic demolition of Palestinian homes by the thousands over the past couple decades. And, in the case of Jenin, and later on Racael Corrie in Gaza, they used them to kill poeple too.

But yes, it is the ultimately dozer operators, not the dozer itself that is the probelm.

Thomas More: You want to know what the Palestinians want? Simple. PEACE. They want Israel to respect UN resolutions and international law. They want to have a country and an end to the occupation. Simple. Yes, there are 'extremists' who want to destroy Israel, the way Israel destroyed Palestine, you know, revenge and all that... but really, what they want is peace and an end to occupation. Is that too much to ask?

What do the Palestinians want?

Many Palestinians, those in their 60s or older, remember being expelled from their homes inside what is now Israel but what was then Palestine, in 1947 or '48. Some of them still hold the keys to their homes that they kept as they fled, thinking they would be back in days or weeks. Many more remember the terror of being expelled from their homes in the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, finding minimal shelter in refugee camps that became home for 35 years or more. Palestinians want dignity, human rights, and a state of their own.

In 1988, in an enormous compromise, the Palestinian National Council, or parliament-in-exile, voted to accept a two-state solution that would return to Palestinians only the 22 percent of their land that had been occupied in 1967. They accepted that the other 78 percent would remain Israel. While some individual Palestinians and some small organizations still reject that historic compromise, for the vast majority of Palestinians the goal is for an independent state--a fully realized and truly independent state--in the West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital.

Palestinians also want the right for refugees to return to their homes, from wherever they were expelled. The right of return is part of international law, and Palestinians are specifically guaranteed that right by UN Resolution 194, which states that "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return."

Simply an end to "the violence" is insufficient, because it would leave in place the structures of military occupation that prevent Palestinians from realizing their full national rights and their human rights to dignity and independence.

http://tinyurl.com/67sjg
http://tinyurl.com/5l7tby

Finally, how the hell can all you heartless bastards live with yourself trying to justify Israeli crimes against the Palestinians? Really, where's your frickin humanity!?! God, it makes me so angry! And Thomas, it's not a matter of finding out who's Right and Wrong... Think about it... Who's the oppressor? Who's the oppressed? There's your frickin answer.

Oh yeah, and Thomas, you want to know what the Israelis want? They want "Greater Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates. You know, their 'historical' homeland? What's fucked up about the whole thing is that the REAL Jews (Sephardic) are 2nd class citizens in Israel where as the FAKE Jews (Ashkenazi) run the show.

Israeli Army officers now ask their men to study tactics used by the Nazis in suppressing the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising:

If our job is to seize a densely packed refugee camp or take over the Nablus Casbah, and if this job is to be given to an Israeli officer to carry out without casualties he must before all else analyse and bring together the lessons of past battles, even--shocking though this might appear--to analyse how the German Army operated in the Warsaw Ghetto.

Regarding using the Nazi genocide as the benchmark of all morality, Ilan Pappe quoted a recently deceased Israeli journalist on this notion:

But we are still left with the chilling remark of Aryeh Caspi--a Haaretz journalist who died recently and prematurely--that, unfortunately for the Palestinians, so long as the state's policy toward them is less than genocidal, anything else is morally justifiable.

In 1988, in an enormous compromise, the Palestinian National Council, or parliament-in-exile, voted to accept a two-state solution that would return to Palestinians only the 22 percent of their land that had been occupied in 1967. They accepted that the other 78 percent would remain Israel. While some individual Palestinians and some small organizations still reject that historic compromise, for the vast majority of Palestinians the goal is for an independent state–a fully realized and truly independent state–in the West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital.

If Israel accepted this compromise why hasn't it been put into effect?

"Palestinians also want the right for refugees to return to their homes, from wherever they were expelled."

Does that mean the right to return inside Israel?

elmysterio July 24th, 2008 7:08 pm
Calm down my friend. I understand the emotion that drove these posts, but try and understand how hard it is to understand how these people can cheer a murderer released by the Israeli.

I did see the 100 video camera's that were given to Palestinians by a peace group and some of the pictures they took. That was an inspired gift.

As to Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Ghetto was completely walled in. No one could leave. They were directly under the military control of the Nazi's. They could not bring in supplies or anything else for that matter.

Gaza on the other hand is not surrounded by walls. Just between Israel and Gaza isn't it?
Can't any body in Gaza leave any time they like? Have the Isralei tried to interfere with any goods landed from the sea, departures? Gaza has a border with Egypt and they can bring anything they want in can't they? If they are malnourished why not bring in food? How is Gaza under siege by Israel? Its wide open to the sea and to Egypt.

These aren't rhetorical questions.

Israel's former thug-in-chief is comatose and so is Ariel_Sharon, But that doesn't stop the rants.

Hey elmysterio. You are wrong, your facts are wrong and you are facilitating violence and hatred.

In addition you are a liar.

"You want to know what the Palestinians want? Simple. PEACE. "

If they want peace they can have it. They don't though unless it is on their terms and that is not going to happen as long as people of good will support Israel.

Thomas More Said: "Gaza on the other hand is not surrounded by walls. Just between Israel and Gaza isn't it? Can't any body in Gaza leave any time they like? Have the Isralei tried to interfere with any goods landed from the sea, departures? Gaza has a border with Egypt and they can bring anything they want in can't they? If they are malnourished why not bring in food? How is Gaza under siege by Israel? Its wide open to the sea and to Egypt."

No, the Gazan people can not leave anytime they like... ALL entry and exit from Gaza is controlled by Israel. The Israelis are enforcing a blockade on Gaza and NOTHING can come in or out, even by sea. The IDF patrols the waters off Gaza and have been known to fire on vessels in 'Gazan waters'.

Even the Egyptian border with Gaza is sealed and controlled by Israel. Once in a while, the Rafah crossing into Egypt will open, but it's quite rare... Of course there was the "Tearing down the wall" between Gaza and Egypt a few months ago when the people poured across the border to get supplies from Egypt. It was resealed a few days later and the siege has continued. The border between Egypt and Gaza is NOT wide open. Gaza is surrounded, and Israel controls EVERYTHING in and out.

Check out this site: http://endgazasiege.net/en/

Goose2: How am I wrong? What fact have I said that is wrong? Are you trying to say that Israel is justified in their actions towards the Palestinians?

As for facilitating hatred... Israel doesn't need me to do that... they're doing just fine on their own by their actions. I can see it now... here it comes, you're gonna bring out Anti-Semitic aren't you? Go ahead! I don't care... I'm looking at it from the point of view that there are two parties involved. One is the oppressor and in violation of international law, the other is the oppressed, living under a brutal occupation. Frankly, I live with myself just fine. You on the other hand, disgust me.

An appropriate home for the Jews would have been Miami Beach. And the wailing wall? The parking garage walls of their condos.

Israel - the real evil state. I wouldn't mind if Israel were to exist no more.

physicscitizen July 24th, 2008 5:12 pm

(I don't mean to get into a pissing match, but)
Dude, you are missing the point. The D9's were not bought by a contractor and 'just happened to' find their way into the IDF. That's the difference.

I do see what you're saying. But I'm sure the IDF didn't dress up in bib overalls and mosey on down to the local 'cat' store & casually purchase 2 dozen (or whatever) D9's either.

Of course all the MSM will focus on the Palestinian using a bulldozer to attack Israelis as if this were a new and revolting idea, ignoring what the Jews have been doing for years.

Nope, no Jewish control of media. It's just "overpresentation."

Gotta love the Zionists who come here to defend Israeli depravity, inhumanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide, racism, theft and murder.

But what's really cute about them is that they demand we think of them as eternal victims, as they destroy and brutalize an entire people.

I used to have some sympathy for you guys, but now I have no difficulty understanding why you have been run out of every country on the planet.

It's people like yourselves who embroiled us in Iraq, who have made America hated in the ME (pissing off one billion Muslims) and are even now working feverishly to mire us in Iran, hopefully slaughtering millions more Arabs/Muslims for you as America spirals further downward in economic ruin and becomes as hated as your personal shitty little Valhalla is world wide.

Americans are stupid, but eventually they catch on. Should your dreams of war with Iran reach fruition, and the blowback is as horrible as every expert predicts, fingers will start to point to those who brought this all on us. If I were a Jew, I'd keep a bag packed.

Why do apologists for Israeli ethnic cleansing and expansion, such as Thomas More and Goose2, even bother to post their vicious nonsense on this forum? Go look for suckers somewhere else.

When Israel grants the right of return to Palestinian refugees, and Palestinians vote the Zionists out of power, we will have a chance for justice and peace in the Middle East.

Meanwhile, the powder keg fuse is burning, and the Zionists keep it lit with continual atrocities to further their own racist, expansionist agenda.

Thomas More says:

"I'm glad everybody is so sure who's right here. I'm still trying to find out what each side wants. Especially the Palestinians."

That may be the single most idiotic, dishonest comment I have seen here to date by a regular reader of this site, including the amoral, arrogant, Jewish supremacists who offer non-stop apology for their criminal state.

If you are still clueless as to what the Palestinians want, with article after article here on an almost daily basis detailing their plight, the oppression and universally recognized injustice, you are too severely retarded to feed yourself.

PissantNobody - Agreed. All Jews are not Zionists, and indeed all Zionists are not Jews.

But your recipe for peace and justice is going to take a bit too long to bake.

There will be no Palestinians or Palestinian land left by the time your highly unlikely solution could take place.

And it is not the only solution. International pressure should be applied to Israel, forcing her to honor conventions, international law and treaties.

There is precious little time to fuck around.