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TechnoratiIf there is any fixed position in John McCain's policy agenda, it's that we must never, ever, set a timetable for leaving Iraq. He regularly flogs Barack Obama for proposing to withdraw by the summer of 2010. So it was a surprise to hear him say Monday, when asked if our troops might depart in the next two years, "Oh, I think they could be largely withdrawn, as I've said."
I guess that makes it unanimous. This week, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said he's amenable to bidding the U.S. goodbye on Obama's schedule. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown indicated his forces also will be heading home soon.
Even President Bush has now come around to establishing a "time horizon" for "the further reduction of U.S. combat forces from Iraq." In other words: "We're going to leave, but it's none of your business when."
Despite creeping toward withdrawal himself, McCain continues to lambaste Obama for setting a timetable. But if the current policy is the stunning success depicted by McCain, it should be eminently practical to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis by the middle of 2010. If it is impossible to do that, more than seven years after the occupation began, how can McCain say the existing strategy is working?
The Arizona senator sounded frustrated this week, insisting that Obama was "completely wrong" in opposing the Bush administration's escalation of the war in January 2007. "The fact is, if we had done what Sen. Obama wanted to do, we would have lost," he declared. "And we would have faced a wider war. And we would have had greater problems in Afghanistan and the entire region."
What McCain omits is that if he himself had been right all the times before 2007 that he said things were going fine, no surge would have been needed. He's like a weatherman who forecasts clear skies every day and, when the rain finally lets up after a week, expects a standing ovation for his accuracy.
If we had done what Obama wanted to do back in 2002, we would not have lost-because we would not have invaded Iraq to start with. We would not have suffered 4,100 dead and 30,000 wounded or burned through hundreds of billions of dollars.
We also would not have diverted ourselves from the correct focus of the war on terrorism. "Greater problems in Afghanistan and the entire region"? Apparently McCain hasn't noticed that we got those in spite of the surge, or more likely because of it.
The troop escalation has not been the complete failure Obama suggested it would be, but it has fallen far short of the triumph claimed by Republicans. The level of violence, though down from the very worst months of the war, remains at levels comparable with 2005, which were considered awful at the time.
Iraqi civilians died at a higher rate in the first four months of this year than in the same period of 2005. The number of attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces is about the same. Here is McCain's definition of success: returning to a pace of bloodshed that was once regarded as intolerable.
Even the progress made in the last 18 months is only partly attributable to the additional American forces. Equally important was the decision of Sunni militias to turn against Al Qaeda in Iraq.
McCain insists this shift was only made possible by the surge-when, in fact, it happened several months before. Does he not know what really happened? Or does he not care?
Also contributing to the decline in sectarian violence was that by 2007, it already had achieved its main goal: driving Sunnis out of Shiite neighborhoods and vice versa. Of the 5 million Iraqis who fled their homes in the last five years, only 30,000 have returned.
The refugee crisis is just one of the results of a war that McCain has supported all along.
The surge didn't provide a remedy to that or the many other afflictions that plague Iraq.
For good or ill, though, we have probably achieved about all we can with the means available.
That's obvious to most Americans and most Iraqis. Once in a while, the realization even dawns on John McCain. But he lies down until it passes.
Steve Chapman is a member of the Tribune's editorial board. He blogs at chicago tribune.com/chapman
Copyright © 2008, Chicago Tribune
45 Comments so far
Show AllThomas More, It is definitely wrong to say that we are fighting for our freedom in Iraq or that this war is good for our country in any way. The 16 intelligence agencies of the USA have said that what we did in Iraq has made us LESS safe, been a great recruiting tool for al Qaeda, and has given them a training ground. It has greatly strengthened Iran's influence in the area. Saddam was a buffer against the radical Islamists. It has stretched our army and marines to the breaking point, killed 4,124 of them, seriously wounded 30,000 more, and will cost our taxpayers $3 TRILLION. Therefore, the ones who opposed this war from the beginning are the true PATRIOTS.
I don't hasve to bluster sonny. I'm a proven prodict. Want to match records?
Want to continue this childish food fight. I don't.
Thomas More:
You KNOW me? Riiiight. How long has my family been in this country? What unpatriotic acts have I committed? What PATRIOTIC acts have I committed? HAVE I ever fought for anyone's (including my own) freedom?
You know NOTHING about me, other than the tiny pieces of myself I've chosen to share here on CD (and maybe a bit from slashdot if you read that). Further, you absolutely CANNOT find any fault with what I said to you, I know this. You went off on me for the singular reason that I pointed out your own foolishness (and then you admitted said foolishness yourself, after ejaculating more 'tough guy' bullshit, of course) and hurt your fragile ego. Well TOUGH. Get over it toughguy! If you're as badassed as you really wish you were, a little something like pointing out your obnoxiousness wouldn't sting so much, would it?
I'm not trying to tell you that you're worthless, that you're hopeless, hell even that you're totally wrong, but I -AM- pointing out the utter disdain for logic, reason and morality (well, any morals other than loyalty to the State) you have been using as talking points are feeble and ineffective methods of discussion. Threats over the internet are the highest form of douchebaggery, and I think you know this deep down. Puffing your chest out at a screen doesn't make you tough, neither does shouting at pacifists.
You actually want to be tough? Point some of that bluster at those to whom it is owed. Contact your local Congressperson, your Senators and the rest of your government representatives and give THEM some of that Hell you seem to think belongs in the lap of someone arguing for sanity and less murder.
They told us that we had to attack Iraq, because at any moment, Saddam could sneak up and attack us with vague but ominous sounding "Weapons of Mass Destruction". In fact they said they were pretty sure he was already planning to do just that.
Then they told us they knew exactly WHERE these "Weapons of Mass Destruction" WERE… although initially, they seemed unable to say exactly WHAT they were.
When some of us sounded skeptical and demanded facts rather than vague generalities, they said that these "Weapons of Mass Destruction:' consisted of poison gas, biological weapons and possibly even nukes.
Some of them seemed to like the sound of "nukes", so they started describing images of mushroom clouds over the cities of America.
The told us that invading Iraq would be "a cake walk", and that it would only cost between $40 and $70 billion and be over in six months or less… in fact, some of them said the Iraqis would probably be willing to pay for the entire operation and reconstruction in the end.
When some of our military leaders stood up and said that we needed to send more troops than the Secretary of Defense was planning to send, they said "Nonsense, the Iraqis will greet us with flowers and dancing in the streets"… we can get by with 1/3rd the troops some of our generals say will be required.
Just a few months after the initial invasion, when it finally became apparent that NO "Weapons of Mass Destruction" were going to be found, the mission changed to "bringing freedom to the Iraqi people"… yet the Iraqi people seemed to resent the fact that chaos reigned in their cities, there was little or no law enforcement, various factions were taking advantage of the vacuum in law enforcement to slaughter their long-time enemies, and there appeared to be a lot of anger among the Iraqi people because there were no jobs, power, food and water were in short supply, and our soldiers showed no sign of going away in the near future.
The skeptics were derided with "Would you rather Saddam was still in power?" My thought at that time was "Saddam wasn't killing Americans".
For the next couple of years, we were told that our soldiers were fighting "insurgents and al Qaeda" in Iraq.
Eventually people caught on that "insurgents" doesn't mean "people coming IN from somewhere", but is just a fancy word for "rebel"…
and many of the military leaders were saying that only a small percentage of the fighters were from outside of Iraq… the buzzword became "sectarian violence"… it was Sunnis fighting Shi'a and vice-versa…. Our soldiers had the bad luck of "just being in the way".
In time, we were told that the various local leaders and "warlords" had tired of killing each other off and losing their own friends and relatives, so they were starting to cooperate… as long as our military PAID THEM LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY.
Then came the new 'PLAN'… the "SURGE"!
Suddenly the concept that we could "win the war" on the cheap, with a minimum of soldiers was a forgotten idea… and NOW suddenly, more troops was the answer!
By this point, the skeptics were asking "How will we know if we are winning?"
Begrudgingly, they laid out benchmarks that would be absolute proof the "surge was working"… among those benchmarks were;
1. A law that allowed all religious and political factions to share equally in Iraq's oil wealth.
2. Laws that permanently eliminated re-establishment of Baathist power.
3. A satisfactory method for the Iraqi Citizens to amend their constitution.
4. Permanent establishment of provincial elections.
...NONE OF WHICH HAS HAPPENED.
Well now they tell us "the surge is working" and we are expected to believe that simply based on the fact that the number of our soldiers being killed or maimed has gone down recently.
How do we know whether or not our soldiers are even allowed out in the sunshine these days, or if they are being kept in underground bunkers and bomb shelters to keep them from getting hurt?
I'm sorry, but Bush and Company has permanently damaged their credibility with me. I don't believe them.
Stop the holier-than-thou bull. Push a few buttons and you're true self comes tumbling out like garbage. Your post is uncanny in its resemblance to some of that right-wing crap that oozes out of fox news.
"Many men came before and bought your rights and benefits , paid for them in blood and in many other ways which you haven't faced."
Its called genocide ... go look it up.
The Nazi's on here are usually the ones that use the term.
They also usually can't make a point without Sophmoric profanity.
If you believe that you live in some special place and that you have some God given eright to all your rights and privilages, who can argue with such logic.
Many men came before and bought your rights and benefits , paid for them in blood and in many other ways which you haven't faced.
So let me say again you are not worthy of their sacrifice, you are not worthy of the country you hide in, you are not worthy of your fellow citizens blood if you really think that thses boys and girls are so much less than you. You are not fit to wash their feet, but thats your problem.
I have little use for anyone that accepts alll the goodies and refuses any of the duties and responsibilities.
But the most important point is that you don't know anything about what you are talking about.
fdlstyx July 25th, 2008 10:14 am
I agree.
kent shaw July 25th, 2008 7:12 am
You seem to miss the point that this has nothing to do with the occupation in Iraq. Nothing at all. If you haven't caught it, let me say to you I dion't think you can find anyone here that abhors this war and the deaths more than I do. I think I know more about it than many here.
I simply speak about the boys and girls that are there. Anyone that relishes their death is my mortal enemy, any that cannot find it their heart to understad, I feel sorry for.
But I'll not let any more of this trash talk pass about our neighbors that are caught in this.
Thats all I have to say. To everyone else my apologies for the inconvience.
Siouxrose July 25th, 2008 10:39 am
KENT SHAW: Great point about paying for support, but let's not forget the decimation of Iraq's population. Millions have fled, more than a million have died… to the extent a nation is wiped out leaves less people for "insurgency."
I totally concur.
fdlstyx -- "What a narrow view you have of people who are looking for a way to make they're lives better and meaningful."
Lets see ... they make their lives better and more meaningful by killing innocent civilians !!! What a bunch of crock ! Are you attempting to turn this into some sort of 'class' argument. Its a 'volunteer' army ... you have a choice to NOT commit these crimes and yet , like mercenaries (blackwater) they sign up for this assignment and im supposed to cheer them on because they have an American flag stuck on their lapels ! Excuse me while i vomit ...
Like lisa said above ... would a million 'white' deaths be tolerated if a volunteer Iraqi army had invaded us and destroyed our country and killed us and displaced millions of us ... i mean its kinda hard living under Saddam so we signed up for this .. forgive us while we bash your skull in ... in the name of freedom!! Keep fiddling ..
KENT SHAW: Great point about paying for support, but let's not forget the decimation of Iraq's population. Millions have fled, more than a million have died... to the extent a nation is wiped out leaves less people for "insurgency."
ALEMBIC: Good description of McCain. Exactly in my view why he is 100% unfit for any high office. However, the exposures of Obama's insider status and compromised decisions hardly make me feel gratified with our OTHER choice. As others have noted on CD there are enough disgruntled voters to form a new 3rd party coalition IF we had the media exposure to draw these disparate groups together. I see it in symbolic analogy to Star Wars, and the team of unusual forces that together were able to take down the Death Star (MIC).
I find this whole discussion that was started by gyptian's July 24th, 2008 2:35 pm to be childish and ignorant. You have basically stated that 4,000 lives are worthless and that they are "thugs" who have entered this war of their own chosing just to kill and murder. What a narrow view you have of people who are looking for a way to make they're lives better and meaningful. A large percentage of our military are victims of the economic policies which leave them little choice but to enter military life for hope of a better future. I have encountered many young people through my work at a local college who have gotten there via the military. These are not the kind of people have murder in their eyese or hearts, but good kids who are moving forward to be productive citizens.
Have you listened to any of the returning veterns who abhor this war? Have you read anything about the returning veterans who have been tortured mentally and physically by what they've seen done to the "fellow human beings"--those they view as human beings whether they are fellow soldiers or Iraqi civillians? This trivialization of human life needs to stop. If you "dont give a fuck" you've sunk to the level of those who started this dispicable war to begin with. Unfortunately, these young people are doing what they've been trained and told to do. Don't kill the messenger. The real culprit resides at Pennsylvania Avenue.
Ian McGarrett July 25th, 2008 8:59 am:
"People here who claim the surge was window dressing and that the real reason for the downtick in violence in Iraq owes to the Anbar Awakening and the Sadrist ceasefire ... "
The United States government PAYS the Sunnis in Anbar to be our "awakened friends". And of course the Sadrist ceasefire was brokered by IRAN. Stop the bribery and see what happens as Anbar goes back to "sleep". Attack Iran and see what happens to the Sadrist ceasefire.
" ... the surge made the American forces too busy to screw up the looming threat of reconciliation."
Good point. I and I'll bet many others had not considered such a possibility.
People here who claim the surge was window dressing and that the real reason for the downtick in violence in Iraq owes to the Anbar Awakening and the Sadrist ceasefire are ignoring the obvious fact that America can and should be taking credit for those initiatives as well given that the current administration has a well-nigh miraculous capacity for squandering opportunities and turning lemonade into lemons. Indeed the surge may have assisted those efforts by burdening the American forces with a logistical nightmare dealing with the increased troops levels resulting in a downtick in American operations... the surge made the American forces too busy to screw up the looming threat of reconciliation.
kent shaw; Thanks for making the point that we are achieving peace through bribery-that should be long lasting.
gyption; The MILLION dead Iraqi's, the women and children and men bombed, are a Testament to American Rascism and the USAF.
If their skin was lily-white, would it have been Okay? Would they still be Invisible, Unimportant to 'thomas more' and Steve Chapman? And the other millions that don't seem to care?
Sure.
Thomas More July 25th, 2008 12:11 am:
"And if there is anyone else here on CD that hates America, spits on the Marines and soldiers that defend them, the hell with you too."
Please tell us exactly how we are being "defended" by invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan? How is bombing thousands of innocent civilians "defending" us? Are you going to use the "fight them there so we don't have to fight them here argument?
Thomas More, the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not "defending America". According to the 16 intelligence agencies of the USA, it has made us LESS SAFE! It is stretching our army and marines to the breaking point. The $3 Trillion cost is destroying our budget (Is it good to be in China's debt?). It has lost us allies. It has increased our enemies.
Kent Shaw is right. Why won't this article mention the extremely important fact that the biggest reason for the drop in violence is that we have put 100,000 INSURGENTS ON OUR PAYROLL? Michael Ware and Peter Bergen have said this on CNN. Even Wolf Blitzer said this on CNN Wednesday (although he said 90,000).
Also, do only American lives count and not the 1,200,000 Iraqis? One in eight Iraqi children die before the age of five. Also, it is more precise to say that this will cost US taxpayers $3 Trillion (Stiglitz & Bilmes)---not hundreds of billions.
thomas more "I do acknowledge that I wasc wrong to say "YOU better be careful" Does sound like an asinine thing to say."
Look idiot ... the American military is voluntary ... they volunteer to kill and murder and you support this. You sit in your little armchair and support these cowards ... what does that make you ?? Hide behind your stupid patriotism ... doesnt make you more of an American. If supporting endless murderous wars makes you an American (substitute Nazi) then count me out shithead. By the way fuck God ... he doesnt exist.
Lifelong, profoundly narcissistic sociopaths like John McCain are rarely if ever internally confused. They are only momentarily out-maneureved. Their intolerance at experiencing any transformating moral doubt disallows self-reflective searching, and constitutes their human deformity, their social maddnesss.
As a youth, raised by a conventionally mindless 'America First' US Navy admiral/father, McCain could be forgiven for thinking he was doing his moral duty by aerially bombing and murdering thousands of innocent civilians during the US invasion and occupation of Vietnam.
But today, as a much older person - who still has learned no higher truth from his earlier moral minldessless - McCain can only be seen as just one more fixed-wired sociopath who in effect touts his chronically unexamined conscience as a certifying qualification for the US presidency.
That such political insanities can keep happening on this planet, mistake after mistake is why I lost faith in a caring God, long ago.
As for you, THOMAS MOORE, roasting as you do, without understanding. the moral concern of a generation of semi-conscious idealists which your kind of blind, pseudo-patriotism helped to create, go stick it up your hypocritical butt.
neomunk July 24th, 2008 6:57 pm
gyptian July 24th, 2008 11:06 pm
You are both not too brave. That is quite obvious. Yes I love America and I am a patriot.
Neither of you deserve the freedom you each enjoy that was bought for you by boys just like those 4000 dead Marines and soldiers you two hero's don't give a fuck about. That you just spit on.
You are both callow little cowards and beneath contempt. And if there is anyone else here on CD that hates America, spits on the Marines and soldiers that defend them, the hell with you too.
Don't worry little guys, I'm sure that some more of our Marines will be killed and you two can have a party and celebrate. Drink a toast to your hero's.
I do know both of you, seen you many times. Good God I'd love to see you in a fighting hole.
God, you disgust me.
I do acknowledge that I wasc wrong to say "YOU better be careful" Does sound like an asinine thing to say.
F O R - I M M E D I A T E - R E L E A S E
FROM: McCAIN FOR PRESIDENT HEADQUARTERS
MEDIA DEPARTMENT
TO: ALL MEDIA OUTLETS
DATE: JULY 24, 2008
RESULTS OF SENATOR JOHN McCAIN'S RECENT PROSTATE
EXAM ARE IN. HIS PROCTOLOGIST IS PLEASED TO REPORT
THAT THE SENATOR'S HEAD HAS BEEN LOCATED. HOWEVER, IT
CANNOT IMMEDIATELY BE DETERMINED OF THE SENATOR'S BRAIN
IS INTACT.
MORE NEWS AS THIS STORY DEVELOPS. ###
OK, if you guys are going to flog each other you need to get a room. Or atleast make us believe you're having a good time wandering so far from the point. Perhaps Obama needs to stay overseas until the convention starts. So sorry 5 forgot to tell you assholes when I was no longer talking about your afflictions for each other.
"Your threats are empty, hollow and sound like all the braying of an overindulged ass."
Ha !! neomunk that was hilarious !
Thomas More you are an idiot and you represent exactly whats wrong with American militarism (read: murderous marines) .. they are thugs and commit murder in the name of democracy. The truth is our volunteer Army basically commits war crimes in the name of American Capitalism .. nothing more. They use this lube called 'patriotism' and shaft you in the ass and all you can come up with is 'be very careful' ... what a moron.
I dont even think that is as big of a factor, it just scares me how the right scares ignorants into voting against their best interests. I have spent the entire day fighting against them on blogs and I just dont get it. They have no inteligence, yell a lot and back nothing up and belief just silly facts that arent true. The stupid are prevailing I fear
jasoncocobolo - I share your puzzlement. There are real, obvious differences, but as you can see from reading responses here, Obama is just not pure enough for most CD readers. If even they will dump him and allow the abominable McCain the presidency, what can we expect from Joe Sixpack?
And, did I mention, he's Black?
But why is this still close? Am I the only one that gets the stark differences between the two? Are the dems going to screw it up AGAIN!!!?????
The old windbag JM should have been voted out of office long ago. He's trying to take responsibility for the surge working in Iraqi because he voted for it. The surge did nothing to quell the violence rather it was money, lots of it to the sunni's to help rid Iraqi of resistors. Someone proposed JM should move to Iraqi since he wants us to stay there. Here's suggestion, why don't that old fart jump on the front lines in Iraqi or Afghanistan and really show us the type of leader he is.
What is McCain NOT confused on?
Also, WTF (1:33 p.m.) is exactly right.
Occupation = "war"
Troop escalation = "surge"
Economic exploitation = "sovereignty"
Death = "freedom"
This cheesy crap was discredited back when my namesake had himself charred, but the mice continue to lap it up.
Chapman sez: "We also would not have diverted ourselves from the correct focus of the war on terrorism."
***
Which runs along an axis from K Street to the Dick's office, if you really want to find the source.
Thomas More:
Your threats are empty, hollow and sound like all the braying of an overindulged ass.
YOU better be careful. (See how meaningless that sounded? Yeah, it was about the same when you said it.)
gyptian July 24th, 2008 2:35 pm
Be very careful my friend in speaking about those 4000 dead Marines, though they are obviously not all Marines. I certainly give a "fuck". Be very careful indeed.
One is not exclusive of the other. The Iraqi dead and the destruction can certainly be acknowledged and regretted.
WTF at 1:33,
Thanks for setting the record straight.
It's a shame that Steve Chapman neglected to mention this essential factor.
All candidates for national office need to pledge that the number-one priority is rehab. Dubya has spent our money like a drunken sailor, and Flattop-Killer McCain has promised more of the same. The country can no longer be run by anybody with an addictive personality. Hide the pills & needles, put the liquor cabinet in the landfill. Betty Ford is our saviour, we shall not wage war except on homelessness & joblessness. You CAN be HEALED!
So Goiter-face wants to model himself after another war-preznit, Teddy Roosevelt. Wow, let's go back to the Philippines and slaughter some more people. Can't wait!
McCain is being paid well to play the Gerald Ford role here, and what we fail to see is that Obama is being set up to play the Jimmy Carter role and the Republicans will have another Reagan in the wings for 2012
I'd take Dole over McCain or Obama, and I'm no Dole fan.
And McCain is Bob Dole, without the sunny personality.
Iraq is a baseball game with no set number of innings.
Apparently, McCain ain't the only one who's confused.
"We also would not have diverted ourselves from the correct focus of the war on terrorism."
This author should know better - there is no such thing as a "war" on the tactic of terrorism. So stop f**king saying it. And that goes for you, too, BO. It's enough already.
If McCain wants to stay in Iraq to badly, why doesn't he move there?
Maybe they will elect him Grand Poobah?
the situation in Iraq today looks pretty good from the USA , mainly bwecuase the corporate media have obediently stopped reporting on it..even the ugliest woman looks pretty good when you close your eyes, or drink yourself into oblivion.
"We would not have suffered 4,100 dead and 30,000 wounded or burned through hundreds of billions of dollars."
Why is it that we completely dehumanize the Iraqis by not acknowledging the million Iraqi deaths and millions of displaced Iraqis that our occupation of their country has resulted in ? We've destroyed their country and their lives and even amongst liberal/progressive/whatever journalists all we can think about is 4000 dead Marines !! Who gives a fuck ?
"Even the progress made in the last 18 months is only partly attributable to the additional American forces. Equally important was the decision of Sunni militias to turn against Al Qaeda in Iraq."
Because the United States is PAYING the Sunnis. PAYING them. Stop the bribery and see what happens.
Chicago Tribune, mainstream media, HALF TRUTH. Typical.
Um...
Occupation, not war.
The drop in violence in Iraq is due to al-Sadr's cease-fire, brokered by Iran's Ali Khamenei. That the surge was responsible is US Government propaganda, parroted by Faux News and CNN, and now, Progressives.
Sigh. The MSM is winning.
"For good or ill, though, we have probably achieved about all we can with the means available."
What exactly has been achieved? I must have missed that part.
Was it the dead and wounded?
The "greater problems in Afghanistan and the entire region"?
The ethnic cleansing of Sunni and Shiite areas?
The refugees?
The introduction of al qaeda in Iraq?
what matters is the fact that the troops are coming home from iraq much sooner rather than later.......mccain and his buddies really don't want to set a so called "timetable"because they want to keep the united states in a war type setting for the up coming elections.....for mccain and the neocons,that is the only way they know how to govern.....PEACE ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS THEM