I heard that all them nasty A-Rab terrorist organizations are switching business, too, and will now focus on snack foods that are Halal AND Kosher.

Jeremy has been a warrior in disclosing the shenanigans of this SS squad to the public for some time now.

never mind what the founding fathers had to say about standing armies (after all what do they know about governments or constitutions)- now that we live in a state of constant fear (hey isn't that a state of mental illness or even worse cowardice) we need the new metric of murder and torture to stay safe. don't we?

have you notice how homeland security doesn't do the color code fear alerts anymore - it was too goofy to last even in cowardly america

i digress.....

this morph on blackwater's part is alarming - these killers and mercenaries will now be focusing on the continental states and this should be setting off the alarm bells - the sad part is that no one seems to be taking the call - nothing new there

i think we can now see how much like the german public circa 1933 we have become - oh the banality of evil

we used to be preoccupied with american idol, the war on terrorism, iraq, and so on

now we are preoccupied with the cost of food, lack of decent jobs, crisis in housing, stocks, banks

the spiral trend is clear

and i sense the growing fear americans have about their own government and what it could do to them at any moment - martial law is only a signature away - the supporting legislation is already primed and in place - and with good reason

it is a real concern

and what the american military may not do on moral grounds (killing citizens, rounding up entire populations, internment and prison camp management) i'm sure blackwater will only be too happy to oblige

probably with the same legal impunity the have in iraq

no other country in the world would allow this kind of private army on their soil but they are not as afraid as america - land of paranoid cowards

please protect me!

from my own government and blackwater

bah bah

john prine sings:

how the hell does a person
go to work in the morning
come home in the evening
and have nothing to say

The state department renewed Blackwater's contract for another year in April. Watch out! This current story could be a smoke screen to allow them to get in place around the US for when bush declares Martial law between now and November 4th.

Yellowater Worldwide, Number One in the privatization of mass violent death, will now expand into such businesses as men's underwear, chewing tobacco, heavy steel-toed footwear, condoms, beard trimmers, whiskey and automobile racing, competing directly against NASCAR by presenting a series of races called the Wog-O-Rama Cup in which colorfully painted, armored Humvees, driving at speeds well in excess of 100 MPH, run down orange clad Gitmo detainees who have refused to talk after being administered the entire regimen of enhanced interrogation techniques. Phil Gramm, having recently retired as Chief Economic Advisor to Republican presidential candidate George Anheuser Busch, has been been tapped by Erik Prince to helm this expansion. He recently told Neil Cavuto that "I can assure investors 110% that this entrepreneurial opportunity will not meet the same fate as Starbucks." The logo of the new and improved Yellowater Worldwide will be two charred corpses hanging from a bridge.

Bryan D,
While visiting Washington DC earlier this summer, I noticed the security alerts posted in the subways. No one paid attention that we were at "level orange" and I think no one really understands what that means or what we're supposed to do or watch for, anyway.
Maybe they should change it permanently to Black, for Blackwater.

Going into the air transport and bombardment business?
The Prince and his Luftwaffe won't need to get their feet (or hands) dirty. Does the world need another airborne plague?

Erik Prince, CEO, Blackwater
10.01.07 -- 8:50PM
By Josh Marshall

Here at TPM we're looking very closely at military security contractors in Iraq. Tomorrow, Blackwater CEO Erik Prince goes to Capitol Hill to testify before Rep. Henry Waxman's (D-CA) House Government Reform and Oversight committee. One issue that's got our attention about Blackwater is the firm's ability to leapfrog a number of much older and well-established US firms in Iraq. And that's got us interested in Prince's Republican political credentials.

Along those lines, a few details about Prince to help frame tomorrow's hearing.

Erik Prince is 37 years old. He founded Blackwater in 1997 with money he inherited from his father, Edgar Prince, the head of Prince Automative. The elder Prince and his wife were major Republican and conservative activists and funders. And Prince himself co-founded The Family Research Council with Gary Bauer and apparently provided the key early funding for the group.

According to Bauer, "I can say without hesitation that, without Ed and Elsa and their wonderful children, there simply would not be a Family Research Council."

Prince's sister, Betsy DeVos, is married is the former Chair of the Michigan Republican Party and her husband is Dick DeVos, failed candidate for governor of Michigan and scion of the DeVos family, founders of Amway and major funders of Republican and conservative causes.

Amway is privately owned by the DeVos and van Andel families. And to give some sense of the scale of their political giving, according to a 2005 Center for Public Integrity study, Dick & Betsy DeVos were the fifth largest political givers in the country during the 2004 election cycle. Richard DeVos Sr. & his wife were ranked third. And Jay Van Andel was ranked second.

Let's just say they give some real money to the Republican party and its candidates. And of course there are the DeVos Family Foundations which give money to conservative causes.

Back back to Betsy's brother Erik Prince, founder and CEO of Blackwater. Back in 1990 Prince interned for Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA). Blackwater's lobbyist in DC is Paul Behrends, a former Rohrabacher aide who he met when the two worked for the congressman. Later he interned in the first Bush White House. But after doing so, he and his father broke with President Bush and supported the insurgent candidacy of Patrick J. Buchanan.

The then-22 year old Prince told the Grand Rapids Press, "I interned with the Bush administration for six months. I saw a lot of things I didn't agree with -- homosexual groups being invited in, the budget agreement, the Clean Air Act, those kind of bills. I think the administration has been indifferent to a lot of conservative concerns."

In addition to running Blackwater Prince also serves on the board of Christian Freedom International.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/054744.php

Let me see, first you gut government services, reduce the role of government, cut taxes, launch an invasion on innocent people, spy on your own people who have the gall to disagree with you, de unionize heavily, allow corporations to act with impunity, contract cheap labour abroad, and then hire Blackwater to rehire the unemployed, the goons who served pro American dicatatorships in South America, the poor from the third world, and deploy them as canon fodder to make the the rich even richer. Bush/Cheney et al pulled it off with narry a whimper from the drowsy drone like population who used sub prime mortages to buy houses . Nice job if you can get way with it - they did it. Yahoo!!!!! Erik Prince, you're an American slime success story. Ahh - the American dream -- getting rich any way you can and who cares if expendable people have perished along the way. Let's face it, it's the cost of doing business.

Great comments on a great article. It's a shame that we have to come to places like this to get the real news.

Yes, Blackwater can hire the unemployed and we all can become Little Eichpeople profiting from war. We will be really good people, just following orders - an entire nation of Eric Dorf's.

"Back back to Betsy's brother Erik Prince, founder and CEO of Blackwater. Back in 1990 Prince interned for Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA). Blackwater's lobbyist in DC is Paul Behrends, a former Rohrabacher aide who he met when the two worked for the congressman."

More about Rohrabacher:
"As a speechwriter and special assistant to President Ronald Reagan, Rohrabacher played a key role in the late 1980s getting money and arms, including U.S.-made Stinger missiles, to Afghan holy warriors, then at war with the Soviet Union. He once bragged of being "certainly a major player" in a coalition inside the White House that supported anyone "opposing Communist domination around the world." In November 1988, he even visited the Afghan front lines during a five-day hike with an armed mujahideen patrol in eastern Afghanistan. Among those fighters he encountered, he later recalled, were "Saudi Arabians under a crazy commander named bin Laden."

In fact, Rohrabacher's post-Sept. 11 finger-pointing was a fraud designed to distract attention from his own ongoing meddling in the foreign-policy nightmare. Federal documents reviewed by the Weekly show that Rohrabacher maintained a cordial, behind-the-scenes relationship with Osama bin Laden's associates in the Middle East—even while he mouthed his most severe anti-Taliban comments at public forums across the U.S. There's worse: despite the federal Logan Act ban on unauthorized individual attempts to conduct American foreign policy, the congressman dangerously acted as a self-appointed secretary of state, constructing what foreign-affairs experts call a "dual tract" policy with the Taliban.

A November/December 1996 article in Washington Report on Middle East Affairs reported, "The potential rise of power of the Taliban does not alarm Rohrabacher" because the congressman believes the "Taliban could provide stability in an area where chaos was creating a real threat to the U.S." Later in the article, Rohrabacher claimed that:

•Taliban leaders are "not terrorists or revolutionaries."

•Media reports documenting the Taliban's harsh, radical beliefs were "nonsense."

•The Taliban would develop a "disciplined, moral society" that did not harbor terrorists.

•The Taliban posed no threat to the U.S.

Although he continues to describe himself as an expert on Afghan history and politics, Rohrabacher was obviously dead wrong on all counts.

Evidence of Rohrabacher's attempts to conduct his own foreign policy became public on April 10, 2001, not in the U.S., but in the Middle East. On that day, ignoring his own lack of official authority, Rohrabacher opened negotiations with the Taliban at the Sheraton Hotel in Doha, Qatar, ostensibly for a "Free Markets and Democracy" conference. There, Rohrabacher secretly met with Taliban Foreign Minister Mullah Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil, an advisor to Mullah Omar. Diplomatic sources claim Muttawakil sought the congressman's assistance in increasing U.S. aid—already more than $100 million annually—to Afghanistan and indicated that the Taliban would not hand over bin Laden, wanted by the Clinton administration for the fatal bombings of two American embassies in Africa and the USS Cole. For his part, Rohrabacher handed Muttawakil his unsolicited plans for war-torn Afghanistan. "We examined a peace plan," he laconically told reporters in Qatar.

To this day, the congressman has refused to divulge the contents of his plan. However, several diplomatic sources say it's likely he asked the extremists to let former Afghan King Zahir Shah return as the figurehead of a new coalition government. In numerous speeches before and after Sept. 11, Rohrabacher has claimed the move would help stabilize Afghanistan for an important purpose: the construction of an oil pipeline there. In return, the plan would reportedly have allowed the Taliban to maintain power until "free" elections could be called.

The idea was outlandish and even provocative. Though he is a member of the same ethnic tribe as the Taliban leadership, the 87-year-old exiled former king—who lost his throne in 1973—is known not for his appreciation of democracy, but for his coziness to Western corporate interests. With good reason, he was considered a U.S. puppet by the Taliban.

After Taliban-related terrorists attacked the U.S. last September, Rohrabacher associates worked hard to downplay the Qatar meeting. Republican strategist Grover Norquist told a reporter that the congressman had accidentally encountered the Taliban official in a hotel hallway.

But that preposterous assertion is contradicted by much evidence:

•Qatari government officials who told Al-Jazeera television on April 10, 2001, that Rohrabacher sought the meeting in advance and that they had assisted in the arrangements. Muttawakil said he agreed to the meeting "on the basis of allowing each party to express their point of view."

•The congressman himself told other Middle Eastern news outlets that his discussions with the Taliban were "frank and open" and their officials were "thoughtful and inquisitive." Hardly a casual chat in the hallway.

•Similarly, in an interview with Agence France-Presse, Rohrabacher's entourage described the meeting as "a high-level talk."

What's remarkable is not only Rohrabacher's attempt to rewrite history after Sept. 11, but there's also his glaring naivete, evident in his bungling assessment of the Qatar meeting. One member of his entourage, Khaled Saffuri, executive director of the Islamic Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based group that partially bankrolled Rohrabacher's trip, said he was impressed by how "flexible" Taliban officials appeared. Rohrabacher came away equally impressed. He announced he would travel to Afghanistan to work out details with the Taliban.

But Rohrabacher was out of his league. In the Afghan capital of Kabul the next day, Muttawakil presented Rohrabacher's plan to the Taliban. Mullah Omar immediately issued a statement denouncing American efforts to orchestrate a new Afghanistan government. "The infidel world is not letting Muslims form a government of their own choice," he declared.

More darkly, 137 miles east across the border in Pakistan, Osama bin Laden measured the distance between Rohrabacher and diplomatic reality. "I issue a call to the young generation to get ready for the holy war and to prepare for that in Afghanistan," he said during an April 11, 2001, pro-Taliban rally in Peshawar broadcast throughout the region. "I appeal to you to teach Muslims that there is no honor except in holy war." The hard-line crowd of 200,000 carried pictures of burning American flags and chanted, "U.S., listen to us! We are the death of you!"

While Rohrabacher waxed optimistic, American diplomats became increasingly suspicious of the Taliban. On April 27, 2001, the U.S. State Department officially rebuked Rohrabacher's meddling. Alan Eastham, assistant secretary of state for South Asia, told reporters that while the congressman belongs to the president's Republican party, he did not have authorization for a diplomatic mission. Rohrabacher "did not inform us in advance of his plans with the Taliban," Eastham said.

News of Rohrabacher's Qatar meeting with the Taliban was unreported in the U.S. for 16 months. Then, last month, Gerrie Schipske—Rohrabacher's Democratic challenger in the November elections—issued a press release calling the congressman's unauthorized discussions "not only illegal but dangerous to our country." She believes he violated the Logan Act by meddling in American foreign policy and should be prosecuted.

"It is simply outrageous that this rogue congressman engaged in negotiations with the Taliban," Schipske said. "He needs to explain why he tried to cut a deal on his own and what he promised the Taliban during the meeting."

According to Schipske, Rohrabacher also lied to Congress about his April 2001 trip to Qatar. "He told the House that he was attending a conference. He did not disclose the meeting with the Taliban. Members of Congress are only allowed to accept paid trips that are connected with their official duties. Negotiating with Osama bin Laden's protégé isn't one of them."

Despite Rohrabacher's own April 2001 overseas admission of his Taliban dalliance, only a few media outlets on the East Coast picked up Schipske's press release. Mainstream news organizations in Orange County—including the Los Angeles Times and the Register—have so far ignored this tale of international intrigue. (For the record, the Times OC likely still reels from the congressman's wrath over its reports of his role in a 1996 voter-fraud scandal; the Register is Rohrabacher's ideological soulmate and former employer.)

"It's amazing that the local media won't touch this story," said Schipske. "I guess either it's hard to imagine Dana Rohrabacher negotiating with the Taliban or the story is just too big for them."

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0907-05.htm

A professional private army is anathama to a free country and a free people.

Blackwater and its ilk are another tentacle of the plan allowing Corporations to loot the public purse. They are a disgrace to America and another accomplishment of Rumsfield/Cheney's push for privitization of the military.

Knowing that Blackwater could assassinate any of us and get away with it gives me chills.

>> Blackwater is wrapping up work on its own armoured
>> vehicle, the Grizzly, as well as its Polar Airship 400

As it seems they are acquiring and developing their own hardware, will we eventually allow Blackwater to develop nuclear weaponry?

A corporate warlord with a privately owned army, airforce and intelligence service.

Didn't we used to believe in democracy?

A privately owned corporate army...with it's own intelligence service.

Makes you feel all equal as a citizen don't it?

Weren't warlords supposed to be a bad thing? We never actually had warlords in America before... till now.

This Prince would be a king. What a world we make for the kids.

The first international warlord. Gee I wonder just how a private intelligence service operates given the laws of a country would seemingly define such foreign intelligence gathering activities illegal?

Well aside from such small technicalities like say a country's laws or say ...a constitution... that would normally protect it's citizens from such activities, will be dealt with ...

in the memo.

Consider also, that a country can end a war without going "out of business". However a private concern always needs war or warlike work to continue as a going concern.

Not that nations have done much better, but still, with Blackwater, aren't we singing "give perpetual war a chance"? How long until the government finds Blackwater too big to fail or market watchers eye it's stock as a bellwether?

everything* will be dealt with...in the memo.

Can I have my own intelligence service? Wouldn't that be handy? Imagine what it could do ...under it's own rules? Does a privately owned intel service classify it's information?

Oh man, I gotta get me one of those! Imagine what I could do...playing by my own rules.

And my own army too.

Whose rules apply to an international warlord?

The way it looks... the answer would be... only his.

"A corporate warlord with a privately owned army, airforce and intelligence service."

Thats a very good description. Warlord is a very good label for a Prince.

Forgot to say, without government contracts Blackwater dies or moves to another Country.

Thomas More said: "Forgot to say, without government contracts Blackwater dies or moves to another Country."

Ah there's no shortage of third-world dictators to keep the money flowing to Blackwater...

elmysterio July 23rd, 2008 4:33 pm

Then I think they should go there ASAP! We are about to make a change.

It would appear as if Blackwater looks to combine aspects of the Pinkerton's and the Mamertines (both infamous mercenary outfits from history). Anyone slightly familiar with both and clear eyed about Erik Prince & Co. should be disturbed. An apt cultural reference is the 1975 version of "Rollerball."

WordPress will not let me in on Imperial Presidency or ACLU, I just got home, this was an email I recieved from the ACLU. This administration is completely devoid of humanity, they TRULY
want to RULE THE WORLD!!!!!!

_______________________________________________________________________

Tell Congress: Reject Endless War and a Torture Cover-Up

President Bush and Attorney General Mukasey have a plan to make the entire globe — including the United States itself — a "battlefield" where the president decides who will be locked up forever.

The legislation Mukasey is pushing would also subvert the Constitution, authorize indefinite detention, and permanently conceal the Bush administration's systemic torture and abuse of detainees.

We can't take for granted that Congress will reject the Bush/Mukasey plan. We must meet this outrageous proposal with an immediate wall of protest that says to Congress: "Don't you dare."

Tell Congress to reject a new declaration of war and the Bush/Mukasey plan to subvert the Constitution. Or, read more first.

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Subject:

Dear [Decision Maker],

Please personalize your message
I urge you to reject Attorney General Michael Mukasey's request that Congress issue a new declaration of war and subvert the Constitution.

The Attorney General is asking Congress for a law that covers up torture and abuse under the guise of protecting "sources and methods." He is also asking Congress to authorize indefinite detention with a new declaration of armed conflict: a new, worldwide war without end.

With the House Judiciary Committee investigating whether torture crimes were committed by the Bush administration, it is no surprise that Mukasey and the Bush administration are pushing this legislation as a diversion. However, I will be shocked if Congress falls for this power grab, and I urge you to reject it.

The Courts have a long history of considering habeas petitions and of handling national security matters, including classified information. As Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid pointed out, "The courts are well equipped to handle this situation, and there is no danger that any detainee will be released in the meantime."

Again, please let the courts do their job and take consideration of the Bush/Mukasey request that Congress subvert the Constitution -- and have a new, worldwide declaration of war -- off the table.

Sincerely,

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Spam Control Text: Please leave this field empty

Thanks Natew - you're dead right.

Who do you think has been training civilian PD SWAT teams and teaching PDs how to round uo dissidents (especially Muslims) for the KBR concentration camps (otherwise known as FEMA illegal immigrant detention centers).

Thanks Natew - you're dead right.

Who do you think has been training civilian PD SWAT teams and teaching PDs how to round uo dissidents (especially Muslims) for the KBR concentration camps (otherwise known as FEMA illegal immigrant detention centers).

That letter/petition go to action@aclu.org to see it all.

Ole blackwater keep on rollin......
As a veteran, I pledged to DEFEND the CONSTITUTION from ALL ENEMUES, foreign AND domestic.
Defend the Constitution AMERICAMS.
Elected oficials take the same pledge, but do not seem to take that oath as a vzlued pledge.

All we are saying... is give peace a chance
All we are saying... is give peace a chance

(Yeah, right! PEACE IS BAD FOR BIDNESS!)

Can you imagine the Blackwater boys going door to door in New York or LA or Chicago, pulling out people and putting them in unmarked trucks, copies of the constitution burning in their hands as they laugh at our incredulous and feeble protestations?

This "company" has to be stopped.

The likes of Gerald C. MacGuire and his ilk wouldn't have to seek out a Smedley Butler, hoping that heretofore loyal republican would side in a big-banking coup (1934) aimed at FDR. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

Nope, today, the corporate neocons can simply ring up Erik, make use of the facilities designated under Directive 51, and this once-noble experiment is at an end.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

The fact that a load of bull from Blackwater executives gets a lot of 'play' all over the corporate media, while Mr. Scahill has to write for a BRITISH paper speaks volumes about what's going on in this country.

---------------
Naomi Klein made an interesting point in her book, "The Shock Doctrine".

She said that if you look closely what you see is the governments that hire these companies (and its not just Blackwater) to do a job. In doing so, they pay the company to develop infrastructure and buy equipment to do the job.

But, that remains with the company once the job is done.

For instance, what Blackwater charges the US gov for 'security' in Iraq undoubtably included enough money to buy the equipment and train new hires to do the work. Plus they probably built infrastructure outside of Iraq to do the job. Should Blackwater leave Iraq, they keep all of this. Even though it was paid for with US taxpayer money, the way the contracts work we gave that money to Blackwater so Blackwater could buy all that stuff and keep it.

So, we basically just paid to build a private army. And that private army is now completely out of the control of the taxpayers that ponied up the money for it.

If we built our own army to do the task, probably for about the same money or less, then at least we'd own the gear and the employees would be working for us.

Now, instead we've paid for and created a mercenary army that is completely out of our control.

Turce...on the news today it was reported that the Gitmo trials are irrelevant because even if found NOT GUILTY, the prisoners will be locked up at Gitmo forever. Kiss 'the rule of law' good-by.

Actually, I beleive that the window of opportunity to change things closed when The Black Budget was authorized by Congress in the 1940s. That's when a secret government was authorized.

All of the great comments here, and no one has a solution. No money, no power, no guns, no hope.

If no one voted for an incumbent, it would help but there is no way to make that happen. Let's face it. The people in the US like war. It is the great national business plan.

NICE STORY FROM ENGLAND, notice how no american( israeli run) paper or TV have the nuts to tell the truth?

when america is not run by americans and the people spend more time watching TV than attending a protest or writing your elected criminals you get what you get YOU SHEEP. I just bust a gut laughing at you clowns every night. Cry me a river and Diebold is still up and running. HA HA HA

Samson July 23rd, 2008 6:46 pm

So, we basically just paid to build a private army. And that private army is now completely out of the control of the taxpayers that ponied up the money for it.

"If we built our own army to do the task, probably for about the same money or less, then at least we'd own the gear and the employees would be working for us.

Now, instead we've paid for and created a mercenary army that is completely out of our control."

Extremely valid point. Except our own military would have cost half what Blackwater charged.
.................................................

"The people in the US like war"

Thats absurd.

"The people in the US like war".
Proof - currently 90%+ of those expected to vote are supporting a War Party candidate.

Living in denial is how we got where we are.

A police state needs a police force.

Yeah, without the Blackwater 'brownshirts', peace might break out.

r jackowski July 23rd, 2008 6:50 pm
Turce…on the news today it was reported that the Gitmo trials are irrelevant because even if found NOT GUILTY, the prisoners will be locked up at Gitmo forever. Kiss 'the rule of law' good-by.
__________________________________________________________________

Thanks, I already knew that, this is an entirely different subject. The GITMO victims cannot use evidence of being tortured since they WERE tortured and they can be locked up until doomsday, which isn't that far away.
If you would have read the letter from the link, http://www.action@aclu.org/mukasey
It is about another thing entirely. Whatever, I don't give a shit anyway. Tired of this place. It fucks.. Pretentious and filled with lazy persons that hurl one-liners. All bullshit.

Jeremy Scahill has said it all perfectly. top analyst.

dmgreenaz July 23rd, 2008 3:29 pm

>>" Blackwater is wrapping up work on its own armoured
>> vehicle, the Grizzly, as well as its Polar Airship 400

As it seems they are acquiring and developing their own hardware, will we eventually allow Blackwater to develop nuclear weaponry?"

Maybe they already have one.Isn't there one missing from the B-52 that flew over the continent last August?

This Army was built to invade the U.S. while our Army is tied up in illegal conflicts around the globe.

Hope you all know how to defend yourselves.

Oh' that's right you don't think citizens should have guns.

workreno said: "Oh' that's right you don't think citizens should have guns"

Your popguns will do alot against their bazookas

r jackowski July 23rd, 2008 7:21 pm
"The people in the US like war".
Proof - currently 90%+ of those expected to vote are supporting a War Party candidate.

With logic like that I could get you a job with Dick Vader.

Blackwater-no accountability-no restraint-and no humanity.

A little haiko poem I wrote last year:

"Blackwater"

your name betrays you
out of reach, or so you think
history dives deep

so before i here write my own fear of blackwater domestic operations, i look to see if anybody else has already said as much. yep, they have.

the near future; it's like watching a tsunami come ashore at a clip much faster than i or anyone else can outrun, but to say more i'd be going offtopic as far as blackwater goes.

Until we shift control of the government away from the politicians and back to the people nothing is going to change.

FREE AMERICA

DIRECT DEMOCRACY

I am so tired of Israel playing the poor me card.
FACT: Israel is a nuclear super power with several hundred warheads.
SO if they have the right to defend themselves why can't anyone else AGAINST an attack from Isreal?

ubrew12

So I take it you don't mind if we keep our "pop guns" cause they beat the hell out of pitch forks.