"I do suggest the possibility that the larger Jewish population is being set-up by secular zionists to create even more dissension, and animosity — to control and dominate more people through fear and divisiveness."

Exactly what the nazis did, namaste, but they took their lessons from the Rothschilds:

http://www.iamthewitness.com/doc/RothschildsTimeline-filer/frame.htm

A R A Q U I N, ( & P M S too )

I agree with your comments generally, and specifically"So it's not about them being Jewish but about them espousing right-wing causes."

But I will go even further, as I have developed an intuitive sense of PSYOPS and propaganda.

The Zionists do appear to be hell bent on increasing anti-Jewish reactions, so a corollary to that could be stated:Perhaps the media ownership isn't "accidentally" predominately Jewish.

Let me be clear, I do not advocate blaming Jews for anything.

I do suggest the possibility that the larger Jewish population is being set-up by secular zionists to create even more dissension, and animosity -- to control and dominate more people through fear and divisiveness.

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

We can certainly agree on the lack of diversity. And on the role of AIPAC.

Araquin, I guess I should just take the compiled info about media ownership off the website and paste that on my blogs to make my point, but the article is just too long. Yes, you are absolutely correct I have no bone to pick with people of the Jewish faith (AKA Torah Jews), but I definitely have issues with the Rothschild type Zionists who I equate with Fascists. I see AIPAC as one of the greatest threats to American Jews, in fact to ALL Americans, and democracy. I believe we might agree on more than we disagree, especially regarding the radical element within the Jewish community (Christian & Islamic, too). Extremism is extremism, regardless of religion.

As far as the media goes I have no problem with any view being expressed, but the lack of diversity caused by consolidation I see as a threat to all but the extreme right.

No, Paul, I am definitely not Jewish. And where I come from, I can even prove it on paper, as I used to joke to Israeli friends who kept asking the same question.

And if you've read some of my posts, you know that I have tons of issues with the right-wing politics of occupation and "supremacy" of Israel. I also think that Maersheimer and Waltz were to a very large degree right in their appraisal of AIPAC's influence on American politics.

BUT: I would never ever use any Nazi propaganda as a tool to prove my point. NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You must not forget that you are not talking about Jewish influence but about the influence of RIGHT-WING Jews: I'd rather battle their claim to represent Jews as such. This is a political issue, i.e. that the right wing claims to speak for everyone. ItÄs like they until very recently thought they owned the trademark of what it means to be American.

Noam Chomsky, Norman Birnbaum and so many others would gladly subscribe to any criticism of right-wing Jews.

The real battle is between right-wing Jews who claim to represent Judaism, Israel, Zionists etc and those who dispute it and are harrassed by the right as a result.

CD carried an article the other day which reported that Norman Finkelstein, another one of the Israel-critical Jewish crowd in America, was detained at Tel Aviv airport, denied entry and sent back to the US by Israeli authorities because he was critical of Israel.

That's where the battle line is IMO. No progressive soul under the sun needs the help of Nazis to battle right-wing Jews and Israelis. We can do without them. You have no idea which pandora's box you are opening if you introduce that scum to mainstream debates!

Because that's how it started back in 1930 in Europe. And not only in Germany.

And if you think that too many Jews control American media, then my best bet is that your issue is with the fact that they are spouting their right-wing conviction about Israel. I doubt that you'd have a problem if Jewish-controlled media were thinking like Chomsky. So it's not about them being Jewish but about them espousing right-wing causes.

Again: THAT's the battle line IMO. That's the fight worth fighting. And for that, you definitely don't need and don't want any Nazi support.

Jewish people are not the only Semites; Arabs are too. That means there is more than one way to be anti-Semitic and the Zionists been practicing for over a hundred years.

It's disheartening to read Araquin's message. I appreciate this site allows for free expression. Not all Americans are ignorant. And certainly most of his European neighbors would agree. Araquin's comments prove he is not as educated as he claims. Degrees mean nothing when one's brain become clouded and darkened with prejudice and hatred.

Don't hate Israel, question US policies for over 60 years. Jews have been used, enslaved, and manipulated for the benefit of tyranical and predatory regimes throughout history (Pharohs and the US military complex). True, Israel receives huge monetary support from US but they immediately turn around and hand back at least 50% to purchase weapons, aircraft, and ground armor. They are our best customer.
Israel was established with European and US assistance as a middle east outpost for US policy makers and expoliters of petroleum business.

BS?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_%28United_States%29

The National Alliance is a well-known nazi outfit. Would be banned most places in Europe for that reason.

The claims and demands etc are verbatim(!!) nazi claims - get an education! And don't tell me about how many university degrees you hold. A lot of what goes for a college degree in America was part of my high school final exams in Europe.

You might be able to rely on the general lack of education in history of your countrymen for prividing stuff like that, but you better stay clear of places where European intellectuals are around if you don't want to be found out.

A Just Peace Is Attainable

"How?"

"First the Jewish settlers own up to having barged in uninvited and taken over the Palestinians' homeland."

"And then?"

"The settlers ask the Palestinians if it would it be possible for Palestinian and Jew to sit down together for the purpose of figuring things out?"

"Based on?"

"One equals one."

"And the Palestinian response?"

"Yes, of course, but if only you'd asked us that a century ago."

A R A Q U I N,

So how about you backing up your BS, with something other than denial of there being little or no truth on that site ?

In your unbiased and fair point of view, what is not true on that site that PAUL MAGILL SMITH provided ?

If I just assert that all neoCONers are neoNAZIs, does that make it true ?

Sure I looked at your link, PaulMagillSmith. Otherwise I wouldn't know that it's a neonazi outfit that provided it!

Araquin, I don't agree with some of the hatefulness evident on the Nat/Van site, but there is no dispute that our media is in the control of too few hands, of a very small minority of the population, with a demented perverted Zionist intent at world domination (beginning with controlling what Americans see, hear, read, think). I don't accept racism, violence, or financial enslavement by a Jewish minority, nor should anyone else, or by any other group.

One thing must be made clear here. Being a Jew is being part of a cultural religious heritage, while Zionism is a political/financial movement, rife with acts of deception & violence, and completely at odds with the Jewish religion. Actually, a major number of loyal adherants to the honorable Jewish religion (even in Isreal) reject Zionism as contrary to God's wishes. God's promise to the Jews was that when the time comes for them to have a homeland he would 'give' it to them, but Zionists reject that preferring to 'take' one. I don't believe any people should hide behind a religion as justification for henious crimes against humanity, but this is what is happening with Zionists, both Jewish & Christian.

The reason I posted the link was to point out how overly controlled our 'free' press is by such a small minority, which bodes ill for liberty of US & world citizens. Sure, there are things on the site you don't like, me too, but there is no dispute about the 'facts' of the heavy consolidation of ownership presented. Perhaps you don't recognize this as a threat to democracy, but I do.

Are you Jewish by any chance? Are you a Zionist? Is there any possibility of you being objective & unbiased for the good of our country & world?

I hope you understand there is no hate in my heart, but when obviously used & manipilated anger & ire are the rational mental response. "We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore" seems to be , justifiably, the present national motto...as it should be, of course. Even Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto realized they must acually take a stand to make the words, "There's a time to fight & a time to win" more than just trifling verbiage. The time is now, but with minds/law not arms, or there will be no lasting peace.

If they can't or won't, it's one more piece of evidence that the Obama candidacy is as people-proof as any other corporate one, that there is and never was any "Obama movement" with an objective beyond November, and that Obama is just another brand name, like Monsanto, or Ford, or Exxon.
-Obama is a hypocrite.

He poses as an antiwar candidate during the primaries but now reveals himself to be every bit as hawkish as McCain.
-Obama calls for increasing military spending
-Obama want to add an additional 90,000 troops
-Obama wants to surge' in Afghanistan

Both the Democrats and the Republicans are parties of war and greed. Read article after article exposing their complicity and enabling of the Republican agenda.

Vote for McKinney, Nader or 2nd Party!

RE: opeluboy July 24th, 2008 8:06 pm

When I was a teen in the early 1960's there were 15 million Jews in the world, 6 million of them in the US, and 3 million in New York city alone.

RE: Araquin July 24th, 2008 6:53 pm
"Holy shit, you are peddling Nazi propaganda here with your link, "PaulMagillSmith"!!

I have no time or tolerance for the hangups of uneducated white American males."

FYI, I hold two university degrees (with honors). Do a bit of unbiased research and you will find what I stated was facts based on research, easily Googled, not anti-Semitic, and like most good information hidden from most of the public. If being opposed to a fascist takeover of our country is a 'hangup' I freely confess...and proud of it.

Did you even bother to click on the link I provided? Probably not. I guess ignorance really is bliss.

Hollow point says:

"it isn't get the Jewish vote since if I remember right they make up 4% of the US population it is keep in the AIPAC/Isreal controlled media good books."

Certainly that is part of it, but it is a fact that there are large concentrations of Jewish voters in key states like Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio. while Jews make up somewhere between 3-4% of our population, being concentrated in key areas is an important factor.

Actually, I am kind of amazed that so many people seem willing to dispute this as I hear it discussed on every major network and in election coverage constantly.

Holy shit, you are peddling Nazi propaganda here with your link, "PaulMagillSmith"!!

I have no time or tolerance for the hangups of uneducated white American males.

The only way Obama can get elected is by kissing up to Israel, and Big Media, otherwise he will be 'selected' out or smeared as many who have gone before. When you look at who owns & controls the media you will see there is too much foreign & Zionist influence:

http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/

When I was a Haight-Asbury hippie in the late '60's early '70's there were a number of people who thought they could change the system from within, sort of like Russian 'moles' during the Cold War. The only problem is instead of changing the system many of them sold out, started believing their own press, or were propagandized to the extent they BECAME THE SYSTEM (Stockholm syndrome comes to mind here).

Many people believe Obama might be trying the same strategy, but I don't believe it for a minute. This is not to indicate I almost tremble at the thought of a senile controlled McCain being the 'evil of two lessers', and becoming the third Bush I term. He's definitely the poorest of the poor choices the media 'selected' as the front runners. After Obama's support of the recent FISA legislation are his true colors showing? After all, he, McCain, Clinton (both), and even the internationally recognized war criminal Henry Kissinger (as well as all presidents stretching back to the 1920's) are members of the nefarious CFR (Council on Foreign Relations).

With the CFR, media, AIPAC, and Israel Obama has to 'kiss the devil's behind', so to speak (Kucinich had too much honor to play the game so he's 'selected' out), but I just hope he's playing the game for our sake, and not developing a taste for it as so many of his predecessors have gladly done. Time will tell if he's real or just a fake & flake.

Thomas More Said: "Gaza hardly compares to the Warsaw Ghetto in any way"

Really? What makes you say that? You know, it's pretty darn easy for us westerners to sit here in our comfortable homes and make comparisons between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto, but really, we weren't in either place... What is truth though is that the conditions in Gaza are increasingly desperate and amounts to collective punishment by the Israelis on the people of Gaza. There's massive shortages of pretty much everything, raw sewage in the streets, death and destruction everywhere, and NO freedom to leave. The IDF can and does shoot anyone they want to... Come on Thomas, get real here. Gaza is one massive open air prison and a humanitarian disaster on a grand scale.

Ariel_Sharon July 24th, 2008 1:13 pm

Fuck you fascist.

Gaza hardly compares to the Warsaw Ghetto in any way.

Gaza And The Warsaw Ghetto

same place

different time

while the world stood by

genocide

live

A confusing situation. And who is where?

Where should the Israeli borders be? What do the Palestinians want the Israeli to do?

If the Israeli withdrew to pre 1967 borders would that do it? I can't seem to determine what they want exactly.

elm, oh, you mean the measures israel needs to take so palestinians won't be blowing them up?

That's not apartheid.

Thomas More Said: " "DAILY humiliations of the Palestinian people by IDF"
What did you mean by this?"

Well, things like:

- Checkpoints controlling general movements of the population
- LONG, LONG lines to get through the checkpoints
- People being denied travel between villages
- People DYING at checkpoints because the IDF won't let ambulance through
- Humiliating treatment of the people by the IDF at these checkpoints.
- Farmers prevented from farming by IDF and Israeli settlers
- Massive verbal and physical abuse by Israeli settlers towards the Palestinian villagers.
- Separation wall dividing up the land and even neighbourhoods

That's just for starters. There's so much evil happening here, that's it's hard to wrap one's head around it all.

Check this out: http://www.counterpunch.org/svensson03312008.html

Yes, of course they turn a blind eye to it.

BECAUSE ITS NOT FUCKING HAPPENING!

Idiots...

You know why is Obaming paying so much attention to 2% of the population when the ethnic catagories below make up larger percentages? Hmmm maybe cause these groups don't have very powerful lobbies.

In the 2000 Census, Americans were able to state their ancestries. The most frequently stated white ancestries were:

German - 15.2%
Irish - (10.8%) (not include Scots-Irish descent)
English - 8.7% (may be an undercount,in 1980 almost twice as many people claimed English ancestry)
Hispanic/Lainto - 6.0% (primarily Mexican)
Italian - 5.6%
Polish - 3.2%
French - 3.0%
Chinese 4%
African American 12%

I see that some people are still mouthing, with a straight face, the line that Obama has to shut up and play the game in order to get elected; the implication is that once elected, then he will unleash his goodness across the land.

Wrong. Observers of political culture in the US know this is not how it works, except under extraordinary circumstances (please, finally, stop with the inappropriate FDR comparisons!).

The patterns of behavior and values established by Obama now, in his pursuit of the presidency, are a very strong predictor of how he would govern. There are inescapable, uncomfortable facts, such that his campaign is thoroughly a corporate campaign.

I agree with the sentiment of the poster above, who said that this country probably has to be wrecked even further by Republicans in order for people to wake up and vote for people of real integrity and transparency.

UKnorthener: you've nailed it . Couldn't agree with you more.

Boycotts of goods and services though ,are an entirely different matter: ideal - but totally infeasible in practice. Can you imagine a people who've become soft and sated on every luxury imaginable, ever agreeing to give any of it up -even if it be for the noblest of causes. Even with gas @ USD 4 per gallon one hasn't heard of too many Americans 'tightening their belts ' and cutting back on 'non essential' car rides.

(Though I daresay , walking ,instead of driving ,does have its plus points . The main ones : being able to wolf down many more Big Macs & Fries and guzzle many more Cokes and Pepsis . All thanks to having worked up an appetite.)

The mass Boycott that worked was the Gandhiji-inspired boycott of Western goods . The response was overwhelming. Millions of Indians resolutely turned their backs on Western goods. But then ,the Indian of the 1930s was an entirely different kettle of fish . He could endure far more hardship and privation than the Westerner of the 21st century.

Thomas More, if you look at the "conditions on the ground" (to borrow a phrase from our military) the daily humiliations the Palestinians endure at the hands of the Israeli army and police are meant to keep Israelis "safe". These include the infamous checkpoints all throughout Palestinian territory that cut people off from their sources of livelihood or from their places of education or medical care. I think suicide bombing is a horrible act, but as has been so astutely stated above, the Palestinians are resisting Israeli efforts to slow-motion ethnic cleanse them out of their own land. The Palestinians do not have the backing of the world's superpower plus all the military hardware the US government has lavished on Israel. So they fight back in the way poor people fight back, with whatever means they have available. This means human-guided bombs.

Obama lost my vote because of his shameless kowtowing to the AIPAC last month, BTW. I can't in good conscience vote for yet another liar who openly blames the victims of Western colonialism for their own misery.

It seems from over here that Obama is just another, albeit with a different skin tone, professional, career politician, of the type who will say anything to get elected. McCain is hilarious tho, does anyone really think a man like that could get elected? He's a half wit that changes his opinion mind as the wind blows and his attempts at sincerity make me cringe, he seriously wouldnt get a vote would he?.... hang on I just remembered who's in the big house now. Oh my god. Obama wont bring any change for the good of your country because he will have no power to do it , he will do as he's told like they all have since JFK. I mean look what happens when you try to rock the boat. Support Palestine through any means YOU can. Boycott israeli goods, they are grown/made on stolen occupied land and tell everyone you can to do the same, forget about waiting for a poitician to do it for you, obey your consience.

Did you see the Washington Post's article this morning on Obama's visit to Israel, which describes it as a "campaign" event designed to shore up Obama's support from American Jews by emphasizing his "tough" stance in support of the Israeli government?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/23/AR2008072303276.html?wpisrc=newsletter

The symbolic feature of the day was his visit to Sderot, the scene of Hamas rocket attacks and, says the Post, the "central message" of the day was the "condemnation of Palestinian terrorism." There is not a word in the report to suggest that Obama may have gone to Gaza to see "on the ground" the results of Israeli and international "sanctions" against that woeful country, sanctions that the U.S. supports and that would presumably be supported by President Obama. Fair and balanced? Not!

opeluboy
it isn't get the Jewish vote since if I remember right they make up 4% of the US population it is keep in the AIPAC/Isreal controlled media good books.
Freedom of information is the first step to control the people just like what happened in Germany and the US tried to do in Venezuela just a few years back.
Canada is going down the same road right now under the Harper neo Gov.

Israel is in a slightly better position to give a lecture on torture, spying on their citizens, apartheid and double standards to the US than the other way around.

Funny, Israel was one of South Africa's main supporters and gave them weapons, including nuclear when the rest of the world had sanctions on South Africa.

FYI, details on the curious "incident" of 22 September, 1979 in the South Atlantic.

South Africa and Israel were close allies as racist, outlaw states during the 4 decades of the South African Apartheid system's existence. Although most nations in the world shunned South African Apartheid leaders, Israel welcomed these pariahs with open arms. During a state visit by South African Prime Minister John Vorster to Israel in 1976, an official South African government publication noted:

Israel and South Africa have one thing above all else in common: they are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples.

Interestingly, Vorster had been a fan of Adolf Hitler during early years of WWII and was even jailed for his Nazi sympathies.

The board of directors of Bell South has awarded the Zionist company Amdocs with a contract for billing a couple of hundred million Americans. With the information they possess, they can data mine their way to a thousand Jonothon Pollards. With the spying equipment sold to local, regional, state and national American government entities, Comverse Infosys can listen in on conversations between and amongst all of our representatives and all of our law enforcement officials.
Israel is at war with our country in the same way Spain was at war with the Aztecs, Incas and Mayans. After dividing them, and murdering their leaders, the Spanish kept them enslaved for 400 years.
While we are sold the notion that we ought to be staring, stupified, at Clyde and Cletus buzzing around in a corporate-sponsored never-ending ride to nowhere, the Zionist Jews, who hate us no less than they hate the Arabs they've been murdering and torturing for lo these past 60 years and more, are laying the groundwork for our enslavement. They know our leaders are corrupt, and hence will continue to work that angle which has worked so well in the past. If Americans were not spineless sheep, they would put a padlock on the door of AIPAC tomorrow.

Excellent piece.

The truth is that the Zionists have been working assiduously, ever since
World War II and even long before
to craft one of the world's most effective propaganda programs to eradicate all traces of their genocidal cleansing of the Palestinians from their racist "Jewish State". THe Zionist compulsion to eradicate all traces of the real history of mass genocide and expulsion of the Palestinian has duped the world.

The Zionists, from the very beginning, have looked upon their propaganda program as an integral strategy in its war against the Arab/Muslim/Islamic world. The mere fact that no Western politican or media network ever mentions, let alone criticizes the presence of its huge nuclear stockpile is one endice of the successfullness of its propaganda. Another is that they never address the real violent, bloody massacres, exterminations, expulsions of the Palestinians during the Zionists war of terror in 1948.

It has all been neatly swept under the table. Don'td hold your breath that Obama will shed any new light on these dark ugly truths if he is elected.

Funny, Israel was one of South Africas main supporters and gave them weapons, including nuclear when the rest of the world had sanctions on South Africa.

I wonder how Obama reconciles that against his African-American heritage. Of course, he does have to do the dance with them until the election. He just should not look like he is enjoying it so much.

But dmia is right. Israel is just following in Americas foot steps, and not the other way around.

There's one thing about Aparthied. The more you try to hide it. The more pronouced it becomes. And in the end either kills and/or greatly damages the socility that pracitces it.

That's what eventually happened to South Africa. And that is what I think is happening to Isreal now. It's slowly becoming the country it hates because of it.

Siouxrose - I really don't think that was the point, sorry. It had nothing to do with past elections and the context and the piece did not draw on that. I have heard this discussed over and over for weeks now about Obama having to win Jewish voters in key states. I have heard this discussed on every major network, along with his inability to win "white working voters."

It meant exactly what it meant.

Good one, Doug. One minor flaw in the analogy, however, is that the "whities" could simply move to Florida or California or Ohio or anywhere else and still be in the same country. The Palestinians cannot. They must go to another country or remain refugees on their own land.

JERRY ROSE: Now THAT was fair & balanced! (So unlike the news network making such a claim.)

DOUG HYDEN: Clever parable.

ARAQUIN: Good post.

OPELBOY: The comedic reference to the old Jews deciding was a play on the chads from West Palm Beach that cast votes for Pat Buchanan, who many Jews see as anti-semetic. THAT was the actual reference being alludd to as per their power in casting an election!

AN INCONVENIENT PARABLE

It is the year 2016, and the powers that be are feeling guilty over three hundred years of the displacement and genocidal treatment of Native Americans. Recognizing that the Indians will never feel safe except in a nation that they can call exclusively their own, the United Nations creates a sovereign nation for those Native Americans who choose to settle there. This nation, named "Pre-Columbia," is comprised of all the most desirable parts of Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey.
The white people, or "whities," who already live in Pre-Columbia are considered expendable, even though many of them have roots in the land going back hundreds of years. The new masters of Pre-Columbia, supported by the strongest military powers in the world, treat them without mercy. Their homes are bulldozed and their land confiscated—without compensation—to create living room for the new Pre-Columbians. The whities are generally terrorized and herded into filthy and overcrowded refugee camps, where they are forced to live amid conditions of unbelievable squalor. They are provided rotten medical care and few educational opportunities. Massive concrete walls are erected around the whitey ghettos, and Pre-Columbia severely restricts or arbitrarily denies them their travel rights, even to work or to visit relatives from whom they have been forcibly separated.
White culture is systematically trampled upon. Those whities who, by chance, remain within the un-walled areas of Pre-Columbia are relegated to second-class citizenship, denied basic civil rights such as the right to marry Native Americans and send their children to decent schools, and forced to endure the continual humiliation of a smug racism. Those brave protesters who do speak up for their rights are routinely harassed or imprisoned on trumped up charges.
The world is mostly heedless of the whities' pleas of injustice and their cries for help. Any show of resistance by the whities paradoxically gains sympathy for the Pre-Columbians. The news media takes up the Pre-Columbians' cause and begins a long and systematic campaign of propaganda along the lines of, "Pre-Columbians good! Whities bad!" The Pre-Columbian government, a pretty good propaganda machine itself, portrays the whities as terrorists and thugs and uses any sort of resistance as an excuse to practice its own brand of violent terror. Any kind of resistance from the whities is met with wildly disproportionate acts of retribution—ten whities are killed for every Pre-Columbian—and ever stricter control of the whities.
There are some people outside Pre-Columbia who speak out in favor of fair treatment for the whities. With the aid of the press, the Pre-Columbian government successfully portrays them as Indian-hating racists and terrorist supporters.
Within Pre-Columbia, enraged by their treatment and frustrated by their inability to secure justice, a few whities take up arms. Despite the fact that their arms are laughably light and insignificant, they kill a few Pre-Columbians. The Pre-Columbian government portrays this modest revolt as an existential threat, and the world believes it. The government becomes increasingly belligerent and aggressive towards surrounding countries, militarily attacking them and otherwise attempting to subvert their governments. Pre-Columbia never negotiates the "Whities Question" in good faith. It doesn't have to; it is backed up by the strongest military powers on earth.
The whities are kept in utter subjection and poverty and increasing isolation. They are the victims of something that falls short—but not very short—of genocide. When the whities complain, the Native Americans justify their right to abuse them by saying, "Shut up! We're the victims here! The world has practiced genocide against us for hundreds of years! They've killed millions of us, just because we're red. Besides, God gave us this land thousands of years ago."
How do you think the whities feel? Can you feel their rage and frustration? Can you see how they're forced to resist with the only weapons they have? Do you understand that their resentment of their treatment by the Pre-Columbian government will morph into an unreasoning and generalized hatred for and desire to annihilate all Indians everywhere? Do you see that their rage is justified? Doesn't your heart go out to them?
Consider the possibilities. Connect the dots. Think about it.

Doug Hyden ©2008

jlocke123 - Were you a former Hillary supporter? Again, I heard none of this talk here at CD when she was running. Did you demand these same things of her? Of Edwards? Richardson? Kucinich is the only one who has had the nuts to stand up to Israel, and he is in the fight of his life to ward of AIPAC money coming in from everywhere to unseat him (ala McKinney).

Obama, as I have said endlessly, is hardly my ideal of the prefect candidate. As a 30 year activist for Palestinian freedom, I would prefer Nader, and Obama's obsequiousness towards Israel makes me vomit. McCain, however, is so much worse that the thought of him being in the White House is more than I can bear.

You make the world a better place in your fashion, I'll do it in mine. That would entail first denying McCain the presidency, then working with other like-minded liberals to get our country back.

Perfect solution? No, but the only viable one — short of armed conflict.

I wish no people harm, but I do think Israel needs to clean up its act. I also feel we should not back any non-defensive military action they take unless pre-authorized by our congress.

AGAIN, AIPAC/Israel tell the US elected officials what to say and do. It is time AMERICANS stood up and told the elected officials what to do.
TAKE BACK AMERICA

Biwee's response is the most cogent reasoning so far.

Thanks

The hypocrisy in this issue is shocking. If you think that that Hezbollah does NOT have the right to violate UN Sec Council Res 1701, then you also must agree that Israel does NOT have the right to violate 242 and 338. It is in the long term interest of the United States of America to ABANDON Israel. This should have been clear with the attack
on the USS Liberty in 1967. It should be equally clear today, with dual citizenship Israelis in very high level positions in the US government, and with Israelis who live in Israel voting in US elections.

opeluboy July 23rd, 2008 6:32 pm : "You must surely know that if Obama did not kow tow to these thugs and traitors he would be finished.
That's very brave and noble of you to suggest he destroy his career. Reminds me of a lot of the war supporters who are thrilled for other people's kids to fight and die for them."

Opeluboy, you are right, Obama's career is more important than the lives of other people's kids. Errrr…Not so much.

If Obama can't stand up to these "thugs and traitors" why are you considering him for president? The job is "president" isn't it, or is it head waiter to the "thugs and traitors"?

…and take it easy opeluboy I'm not angry. I live in a very nice multiparty democracy. I do my best every day to keep it that way. I'm just trying to help my fellow humans, represented here on CD, make the world a better place for all of us.

jlocke123 - I agree completely with the need for accountability. I just find it interesting that this was rarely a topic here when Hillary was still in the race and that all you guys are insisting that Obama owes us his career suicide to atone for decades of bullshit perpetrated by others.

If you want to be angry, might I suggest you direct that anger at AIPAC, the criminal state of Israel and Zionist American media that demands this unswerving devotion of our representatives.

You must surely know that if Obama did not kow tow to these thugs and traitors he would be finished.

That's very brave and noble of you to suggest he destroy his career. Reminds me of a lot of the war supporters who are thrilled for other people's kids to fight and die for them.

Back in the early 80s, after a trip to Apartheid South Africa, a historian scholar friend of mine sent (pre-internet days, after all) for the exact Israeli laws governing the occupied West Bank to compare them with the SA ones he had acquired on his trip in order to study and compare them thoroughly. He had an inkling.

He showed me the result of his research. It was shocking.

And that was a few years before the intifadas, mind you!

Having said that, I'd still say that the intelligent way to go about an illegal (by international law) occupation would have been to pamper the West Bank with the best administration any place in the Middle East has ever seen.

To the point that the Arabs would have refused to be governed by their own again or at least would constantly have nagged any Palestinian administration with "but when we were ruled by Israel, this would have been unthinkable...!" compaints.

They could actually have made friends.

But the Israelis did the exact opposite (I've actually visited the West Bank and was truly shocked, mainly by the way the Israelis behaved and that was even before the going got really tough there!).

The Israelis behave like Ãœbermenschen and treat the Arabs like Untermenschen, quite apart from the blantant violations of international law going on there, aided and abetted by America.

That's no way to make friends at all but it has proved to be a sure recipe to make a lot of enemies. After what I have seen on the spot, I am not surprised at all.

elmysterio July 23rd, 2008 5:08 pm

I meant to say "really"!

"DAILY humiliations of the Palestinian people by IDF"

What did you mean by this?

I don't rally have a postion here. And I am thinking about these things, but its hard to get to the bottom of this problem.

I'm not blaming the Palestinians at all. (I certasinly never blamed the Iraqi's, except for the murderers among them for opposing our guys. I never blamed Charles or the NVA for fighting us. I would have if someone came to my country.) In fact I suspect they are really pawns in a larger game. But I have to be real sure of my facts before I take a firm stance on things.

I don't particularly have any love for Israel or for that matter particularly support them.

Differences arise though..... "Hamas is a terrorist organization. (They are a resistance group)"

They are terroists flat out, I have no doubt and they have a long history of it and cruel with it.

They at the same time are the legally, democratically elected government of Gaza. That poked one in Georgie Porgies eye! Didn't Israel withdraw from Gaza? Are they interfering in Gaza?

"Israel doesn't target civilians while the Arabs do. (They both do"
No question about it.

Frankly I think anyone that attacks unarmed civilians, children, women should be stood up against a wall and shot. Its a hard question though because if someone killed my family, I'd not be their friend.

I'll keep looking at what people say, go back and check the history...I sure don't know everything. (yet!) And I'm sure you will think of something you missed.

opeluboy July 23rd, 2008 5:39 pm: "So what it comes down to is that a lot of people are screaming for Obama to fall on his sword."

opeluboy, falling on swords is what people do to accept responsibility for their actions. So far Mr. Obama, in the senate, has a lot to atone for. If his giving immunity to Bush's illegal wiretapping is any indication, Obama's standard of ethical behaviour is sickeningly low. His AIPAC speech where he generously gives away occupied Jerusalem to Israel only puts more emphasis on his lack of principles.

What I hear people "screaming for" is a government that acts in the interest of the entire populace and not just the lucky few like the directors of AT&T who can afford to buy justice or the apartheid government of Israel that can afford to flout international law with the backing of US taxpayers to the tune of billions of dollars a year.

dmia,

Your "criticism" makes no sense.

Let's try this again. Big Media is owned and controlled predominantly by Zionist Jews. That is a fact. So what do you expect? Fairness?

And this same media can make and break candidates and end political careers.

While I absolutely detest Obama's disgusting embrace of Israeli criminality, I know that he would be done for if he did anything else.

See Daily Show the other night? While it was presented as humor, the segment on this election coming down to a few "old Jews" in places like Florida was no joke. These people vote based on who will allow Israel's arrogance and intransigence to continue unchecked. So do a lot of younger American Jews as well, this myth about a non-monolithic Jewish community aside.

So what it comes down to is that a lot of people are screaming for Obama to fall on his sword. Great, that gives Israel John Bomb Iran McCain.

Funny how I never heard this when Hillary was still in the race, especially on this site. Talk about an utter whore for Israel. Where was all the moralistic outrage then?

The hypocrisy and refusal to acknowledge the obvious here at CD has sunk below the pathetic.

Thomas More: Look at the situation objectively... what do you have?

- Israel created artificially by the UN (Western Powers) in land that is already occupied.

- Israel founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing.

- Plight of the Palestinian people ignored and opposed by both the western powers and their client Arab governments.

- Vastly disproportionate casualties from the conflict.

- Corrupt Palestinian 'government'

- Massive racism on the part of the Israelis towards the Arabs... (visa versa of course)

- Expansionist governments in Israel NOT wanting peace of any kind... except for getting rid of the vermin (Arabs).

- Palestinian people held captive in Gaza by an Israeli blockade.

- 41 YEARS of occupation in Gaza and W.B.

- Indiscriminate use of force by the IDF against the Palestinian people.

- DAILY humiliations of the Palestinian people by IDF.

- Loss of Hope of the people due to Israeli Oppression.

- on and on we could go...

So I know, your big beef is all about "suicide bombers"... but think of it this way... what other weapon do the Palestinians have against the Israelis? They don't have tanks, and jets, and attack helicopters (bought and paid for with your tax dollars by the way)... they have desperate people and low tech weapons. While I totally don't condone blowing up civilians by either side, I can understand someone who has NO hope, because of the occupying power, taking matters into their own hands and becoming a suicide bomber. Israel does not have the moral highground either because they indiscriminately fire high explosive bombs and missiles into civilian areas on a fairly regular basis.

So the couple of Big Lies that we hear all the time are:

- Israel is fighting against it's own extinction. (There is no threat to Israel's existence. They're here... they're not going anywhere.)
- Israel is acting in self-defense. (They are really the aggressor)
- There is no 'partner for peace' (There is just no 'peace partner' willing to abide by Israel's unfair terms)
- Palestinians refused Israeli peace offer at Camp David. (Offer was insulting)
- Hamas is a terrorist organization. (They are a resistance group)
- Hamas 'seized' control of Gaza. (they are the legitimate govt)
- Israel doesn't target civilians while the Arabs do. (They both do)

I'm sure there's much I've missed, but I implore you Thomas, to re-think your position here. Blaming the Palestinians for the whole problem is like blaming the Iraqi people for fighting back against the Americans. It's like blaming a victim of a rape for the rape (she deserved it)... I know a lot of people get really caught up in blind support for Israel, but that really does no service to Israel at all. If someone REALLY cares about Israel, they need to tell her that she's behaving badly and needs to change her evil ways. Instead, Israel is acting like a violence junkie and the US keeps on supplying the fix on a regular basis.

jlocke123 July 23rd, 2008 4:07 pm
Jerry D. Rose July 23rd, 2008 4:24 pm

Thanks guy's.

Anybody else got any thoughts on this problem and who's at fault?

PAX4all,

If Israel is not of primary strategic or economic importance to the US, then go to business execs and the guys who run the military industrial complex. If they thought their interests were in jeopardy, they'd cut Israel off so fast your head would spin.

Well said, jlocke!

It wasn't the Egyptians or Saudis who colonized Palestine. It was the West (The Brits, in this case).

What right do we have to blame colonized peoples for the mess we have made of their countries and regions. Or we could play blame the victim (how right wing of us).

I'm not sure that I would say the surrounding dictatorships of the Mid-East are "vassals of America", but I would say the surrounding dictatorships are powered by elites interested in oil revenues and not interested in the plight of their people.

Israeli is not of primary strategic or economic importance to the US; it is a liability for the most part.

Mr. Thomas More, 3;47: What some people are saying here (or should be saying) is that Obama, McCain and the whole hawk "foreign policy establishment" are treating Arab/Muslim people as if THEY are "wholly" (or very largely) responsible for the "mess" and so they are lectured on how THEY have to change their behavior if the "peace process" is to proceed. Meantime, as our "staunch ally" behind which we must stand, Israel gets the benefit of the blind eye for its contribution to the mess. Just like Obama lectures black fathers and others on their deficiencies and puts the blind eye on white racism in this country.

Thomas More July 23rd, 2008 3:47 pm: So everyone here is saying the whole responsibility for this mess is Israels fault and the Arab/Muslim populations and governments are blameless?

The short answer TM, is YES; the mess being Israeli apartheid. The Israelis couldn't do it without the US of course. All the surrounding dictatorships are also vassals of America. The people in Palestine don't get a vote; nor do the people of Egypt etc. Even in Israel, only some Israelis (the ones with Jewish id) get full citizenship.

Israel is treating Palestinians badly and have illegaly occupied Arab lands?

So everyone here is saying the whole responsibility for this mess is Israels fault and the Arab/Muslim populations and governments are blameless?

ACC said: "If not, and McCain gets in, the country will not recover."

Agreed that McCain would pretty much destroy anything that's left of the United States. Perhaps that's a good thing. Perhaps McCain is just the thing needed to destroy the empire. Perhaps, McCain destroying the country will be the catalyst that will push the citizenry far enough to rebel. I fear that under Obama, the awakening that's been slowly happening will stall and the people will go back to sleep, safe in the knowledge that Obama is protecting them from the Terrorists. Perhaps the country needs to be destroyed in order to save it. Something to think about anyways...

I wonder why Iran and other endangered countries haven't acquired nuclear weapons from the black market?

"For the US, Israel is a kind of offshore military base, a nuclear-armed white enclave in the middle of millions of brown people who sit atop a large share of the world's most accessible oil."

Bingo! And the above, rather than alleged "guilt" over the Holocaust, has been the driving force behind western support for Zionist colonization all along.

We lose either way - McCain or Obama. I hope most of us will vote outside the system and overthrow our sick government. The higher the percentage the more power we will have in the long run.

Kolea: Yes. Nudging is about all one can hope for. Let's hope there are enough nudges to get Obama into office. If not, and McCain gets in, the country will not recover.

I have not always agreed with Bruce Dixon, but I have always found his writings to be well-reasoned, courageous and challenging.

Obama's cheerful acceptance of Israel's policies are offensive to me. And a particular disappointment, as he has demonstrated a sympathy towards the treatment of the Palestinian people just a few years ago and I was hoping for more from him on this issue.

The dishonesty on Israel is not particular to Obama, or the corporate media. It pervades American society. Only a very few politicians at the national level have been able to freely criticize Israel and remain in office.

The difficulty is not limited to mainstream, electoral organizations. Liberal and progressive organizations have similarly had difficulty discussing the issue without falling apart over internal fighting and/or the withdrawal of funding. A few years ago, the MoveOn leadership attempted to use its structure to promote education on the issue among its membership and ran into a firestorm of internal and external attacks, which threatened the existence of the group. They were forced to drop the effort.

I have personally spent a great deal of time on working on the issue in my community and have felt the pressure firsthand. But I have never run for office.

Nader and McKinney have the freedom to speak honestly on this. They are able to speak freely because they are marginalized AND they have been marginalized because they speak freely. Dennis Kucinich is a rare congressman who has survived, but Dennis is also, unfortunately, fairly marginalized.

Obama is not auditioning to be a prophet at the fringe of American politics. He could not speak the truth on the Israel-Palestine conflict and attain the office of the President. Our wishing it to be otherwise is not an adequate reply to the problem he faces.

Obama is not just "wrong" on Israel or FISA or NAFTA. Progressives will find he is "wrong" on a wide range of issues because he is not seeking to be a part of the "progressive activist" subculture. He is seeking to be president of the United States and that requires compromises and choices not faced by Nader, McKinney or Kucinich.

The choice facing progressives is whether an Obama administration will be less agressive, less destructive and more reasonable Bush or McCain on a wide range of issues affecting the lives of Americans and the people of the world. I am not eager to "spread illusions" about the man, but I think the answer is unambigously "Yes!"

The act of voting means different things to different people. Some people feel they must adore the candidate in order to vote for them or they will be compromising their own integrity. I take a more "pragmatic" view and think my personal vote is only one of millions trying to nudge this country into a slightly better direction.

Israel remains true to the vision of Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism who wanted his dream state to be "a protecting enclave of Europe against Asia, a civilisation against Asiatic barbarism". I suppose had Barack Obama been running for presidency 2 decades ago, he would have gone to South Africa to show solidarity with white settlers such as Eugène Terre'Blanche while preaching virtues of "moderation" to a "terrorist" such as Nelson Mandela.

Obama will not bite the hand that feeds him. He has received campaign funds from AIPAC. Israel all the way for him.

People need to read the transcript on his speech to AIPAC. He is sold out.

Obama the fake grinning Rock star!

DMIA writes,
Dixon is a pot calling the kettle black (pardon the expression). We need to clean up your own back yard before we criticize someone else's.

You are an absolute fool! Israel and America are thick as thieves. We completely support their actions and their apartheid state. These are our own actions. These are the actions that blacken the US pot/kettle.

It doesn't matter if Israel doesn't advertise itself as a melting pot. Bottom line is they are doing terrible things to the Palestinians and have illegaly occupied Arab lands.

Bruce Dixon, is, as always, right on the money.

Obama is abysmal on this issue, and well, practically every issue.

It is becoming more clear every day that if you vote for Obama you are essentially going to get McCain's policies.

Bruce you as an editor should know better than to believe what politicians say in an election and judge them by their past actions.

Unless you are a conservative, you just shot yourself in the foot.

well said. If you read the MSM Obama appears to be just and evenhanded in his handling of the Israel and Palestine, but the reality is Israel is an apartheid state and Obama is to the right of just about every other president since Nixon when it comes with Israel.

Wow. That's some schpeel coming from a resident of a country (the USA) that has a long history of not only keeping people apart but also enslaving, torturing, and discriminating people who are not "American".

In fact, we're so paranoid about "other people" being amonst us that we have built a fence along one of our borders. If anyone gets across it, we treat them like scum and work them to death. We've even made into law the absurd idea that everyone inside our borders must speak English.

Isreal on the other hand does not hide its ambitions and purpose, nor does it advertise itself as a "melting pot".

Dixon is a pot calling the kettle black (pardon the expression). We need to clean up your own back yard before we criticize someone else's.