i see no reason why a real progressive should go out of their way to help a Democrat gain office. The democrats betray their base again and again. Just ask Obama about his FISA vote! or Clinton about NAFTA! VOTE THIRD PARTY! maybe if and when the dems start to accually represent their base, instead of representing huge corporations, then we would give them the support. But that will never happen! they are the second head of the one party beast!!!

WAKE UP AMERICANS-BE SMART WITH YOUR VOTE-VOTE THIRD PARTY!!

This should not be a moment of premature celebration, as there is still much to do and the Repugs will not remain clueless about using the netroots for long. In fact, it is at this moment that the preparation for a titanic, no-holds barred street fight be well under way. And if the progressive netroots are anywhere successful, there must also be a due consideration for the endgame. For as recent history has shown, any triumph can be undone and made worse by bad management of the endgame.

Repug shills and lurkers inhabit CD and other progressive sites trying, like the conservative corporate media, to subvert public opinion by posting divisiveness and feeding the public right wing propaganda. Since no one wants to go to their dittohead sites, the oligarchy pays their shills to come to us.

The long time propagandized public knows what the fascists want by now and with the Internet, the people have found ways to satisfy their hunger for alternative progressive views long absent from the national discourse.

The Internet is a causing a popular uprising. The only way the oligarchy can stop it is to control it. They're trying hard, so far with no luck.

"Why do you wait until the year of an election before you start spouting and yammering "third party! third party!"?"

We haven't just started. We've been building a Green Party in the US since the 80s. Where were you in 2004? Did you vote for John Kerry, who didn't even challenge the Ohio results when it was clear from the exit polls that he won that state and thus the Presidency. It fell to the Green Party nominee David Cobb, and the Libertarian Party, to file a challenge and attempt to get a recount.

I voted for Kerry in 2004 because I didn't want to see Bush win another term. After Kerry's refusal to stand up for himself, much less America, I vowed never again.

5% for Cynthia McKinney will do more to change America than a solid win for Obama.

John M. Wages, Jr.
www.VoteJohnWages.com

Great picture of Winston Smith screaming "I am not a number!"

The right has complete dominance and control over all the media except the internet. If it weren't for the internet, we would already be a nation of jack-booted, goose-stepping fascists, shouting "Sieg Heil", with arms outstreched saluting George Bush.

That's why ClearChannel Radio is paying Rush $400 MILLION in his new contract with them, to keep the knuckle-dragging masses listening to his lies, propagandized, and resistant to change. If we think that the oligarcy and their corporate gatekeepers of internet access are just going to roll over give up the idea of controlling net content, the last thing keeping them from total control, then, we are very naive and sadly mistaken.

Join the fight for net-neutrallity or start practicing being a subservient Fascist, otherwise get in line to board the trains headed for the detention camps.

There's A Window Of Opportunity For Us To Ignite A Peaceful Revolution

"How?"

"Online."

"Why online?"

"That's where everyone is."

"But aren't the powers trying to close said window?"

"Yes, but they're too late."

"Based on?"

"The mass mobilizations about to take place."

"Mobilizations for what purpose?"

"Forcing Congress to impeachment President George Bush and preventing him from getting us into an Iran War."

"We attain these goals and then what?"

"Empowered by our victories over the powers that be, it'll be up to us, the what sort of world."

Revoltnow and Ezeflyer are correct. However, I do believe that building the Green Party is a worthy endeavour, that could pay great dividends down the road, but not in the presidential election this year. We must do all we can to squash the Republican worms into the dirt this year, and allow no chance for Bush III to assume the Neo-Fascist throne of the unitary executive.

Organize and vote Green in local elections until you have built a base and support structure to carry the party forward. As I have said before, you can even register as a Green and send a message to the Dems, that they need to move left or risk losing their progressive base. Here is the link -
www.switch2green.org

I also think that the people of San Francico should go all-out this year, "Damn The Torpedoes", to elect Cindy Sheehan to replace Nancy Pelosi in the House. We can afford to lose her seat to the Reps, if that's what it takes to make such a strong statement to the Dems, as we already have a substantial majority in the House that will, in all probability, increase after the November elections.

Just imagine, the Speaker of the House "Ripped out by the (net)Roots"!
LET's GET ORGANIZED AND GET IT DONE!!
Visit her site at www.cindyforcongress.org
SHE NEEDS YOUR HELP NOW!!

I have been a big fan of Cynthia McKinney since I saw her questioning Rumsfeld and Myers in a congressional hearing shortly after 911. She was asking the hard questions that the rest of our cowardly legislators never ask. She has the courage and convictions we desperately need in a president.

But . . . I think that voting for her now when only about one percent of the people know who she is would not help the country.
If we can elect Obama and he turns out to be as beholding to the corporatacracy as Pelosi and Reid, then I think voters might be receptive to a third party candidate. There would be no other choice. It would take at least a couple of years to get national name recogition for McKinney. Vote for her when she has a chance. We cannot let McCain be elected.

Revoltnow and Ezeflyer, excellent points. If the pro-third party voters were serious, you'd think they'd start to work earlier and not wait until the last minute.

I'm sure there are plenty of right-wing fascists here on CD trying to talk people into voting third party to reduce the chance of a Democratic win in November. I'm not falling for it.

If there were a chance for a peace candidate to win, I'd vote 3rd party. There isn't a chance, so I'll stick with Obama. Why waste my vote. Has anyone done anything to prevent another rigged election by the Rethuglicans and their Diebold voting machines? You know the treasonous bastards are going to try to steal another election.

dustdevil~
I understand you reasoning on this important matter, but I respectfully disagree. We've waited too long to gather crumbs from the wasteful masters. Your logic has no place when it's generally understood that Bob Barr will take an equal number of votes away from McShame. Your arguement grows tiresome, as many never understand that the time will ever be right to correct urgent and catastrophic problems. Forget the Dims...they have long forgotten you.

These good and reasonable posts are much appreciated. I wish Senator Obama shared all of Dennis Kucinich's high governmental ideals, perhaps they share more than we know. That's my hope.

FOR CONGRESS Support and Vote for Progressive Independents or Greens. Carol Miller in New Mexico needs your support.

For peace, social and economic justice and human rights:
www.carolmillercongress.com

Dustdevil, Cynthia McKinney is one of my heroes. She was also the first to enter into the House record, Articles of Impeachment against Bush. She did this after the '06 elections, before she left office in January of '07. She would be a great president, but, unfortunately, this is NOT her time. Depending on how the situation develops here in South Carolina, I may vote for her, to give the Greens support, if I determine that my vote for Obama won't make any difference in the outcome. The problem is, many southern states that were predictably "red" in the past, are now in play, like my neighbor states of Georgia and North Carolina, but the margin of victory for Obama would be very narrow.

wc652, Kucinich did endorse Obama when he gave up his bid for president. The article is still here in the CD archive.

beavercleaver - dustdevil has it right. The candidates in the green and other independent parties need to distinguish themselves in states and then congress before they have a chance.

And if "the left" be it democrats, liberals, greens, independent, dog catchers, or whomever, can't come together, we may as well not bother going to the polls in November.

Just look at how the repugs put down their weapons and united behind McCain once he was declared the winner, even though the majority of them can't stand him.

"Last year online activists inspired by DailyKos.com, the nation's most popular liberal blog."

It's a typo. It should read:

Last year online activists inspired by DailyKos.com, the nation's most popular democratic apologist blog.

Fight Fascism, Imperialism, Nationalism, Militarism, Capitalism and so on. Do what ever you think is best but do it!

TupeloGreens July 20th, 2008 1:26 pm nails it:
5% for Cynthia McKinney will do more to change America than a solid win for Obama.

MikeBinSC July 20th, 2008 3:03 pm
Revoltnow and Ezeflyer are dead wrong. What revolt? Sounds like status-quo.

Oh God.... here we go again:
1) Obama voted to fund the illegal invasion/occupation of sovereign nations without UN approval.

2) Obama has fine print weasel on his website to continue the occupation

3) Obama supports the destruction of the Constitution and granting Telecoms immunity

4) Obama has right wingers as advisers and dumped Samantha Power

5) Obama betrayed his friend of 20 years and spiritual adviser, Wright

6) Obama wants to add 90,000 more troops and increase military spending

7) Obama was mentored by the Bush-kissing Lieberman and campaigned for him

8) The list could go on and on………

These things are unacceptable to us as hard as that might seem for you to comprehend. He lied about opposing and filibustering FISA in order to get votes! Obama is unacceptable. We don't care if he's better than McCain.

Vote Greens, Nader or 2nd party!

FYI there are only two partys. Republican-democrats stand for the same things with minor differences. The other party is Green-Independent.

McCain Obama are different shades of red.
Nader McKinney are different shades of green.

zzz July 20th, 2008 4:17 pm
"Last year online activists inspired by DailyKos.com, the nation's most popular liberal blog."
- a modern day "liberal" is a slightly left of center Republican which swallows and compromises his antiwar stance in order to vote for a corporatist, militarist, anti-democratic Democratic candidate just because he's not a Republican. It's true he's not a Republican, he's about two inches to his "left" and just as odious!

The Democrats are complicit with the Republican war makers because they have enabled the Republicans and continue to fund the war. 41 Democratic Senators could stop this war if they wanted to. Obama just voted to fund the war (H.R.2642 77-21) The bill funds the slaughtering, raping and plundering through the middle of 2009 to ensure against the embarrassing specter of it coming up again during the election.

Two points escape the dinocratic party cheerleading crowd:
1) You speak as if, it doesn't work this time-there's always the next election. Response: Your very own Al Gore, amongst distinguished scientists have clearly stated that unless we make decisive shifts in our economy, living habits, military spending, judicial affairs, media control of content,etc. etc., we don't have more than ten years to get still more chances.
2) as a party that answered only to K st. and not the common person, there's zero chance of this party ever, EVER making the necessary changes to the election process. It's easy to see why this party has been so readily absorbed into the neoconservative branch of the Repuglican party. They have no desire to change things, so they've adopted brand "R" ideologies. Jeesh...how long is the learning curve for you folks anyway?

I'm going to assume all the third-party town criers on here are actually honest and not, in fact, Repugs in drag. Though this is not clear to me because it is pretty damm obvious what happens when there is a third party choice on the left, ready and willing to split the progressive vote. But there is no religious-facist-racist third party candidate on the far right (yes, even worse than McSame) to do the same for the Repugs. But enough of that, I'll assume honestly.

Then I have to say that the entire reason the US third pary movements never take off is bloddy obvious just watching the "debate" here. Because everyone talking on here about third parties thinks too short-term and too top-down. It's like buying straight into the corporate ideal. Control from the top and use trickle-down tactics... The way people are arguing on here you'd think that you have to win the presidency in order to have a Green party!

This is patently wrong, and the Vermont Progressive party is showing the way. You start by fielding candidates in state races EVERYWHERE. You start small and you get known. You demonstrate that as a party you have good things to say and you tap into that dissatisfaction that we all feel out there...and I can guaratnee you that even the right-of-centre crowd is honestly starting to question their fundamental beliefs.

The USA is in an excellent period to start a third party that would really start to make a difference. Has been for about two decades really. But all I hear is "Vote Nader" or "Vote McKinnley". Although I certainly agree that these third parties need to get a Presidential candidate on the books for visibility, the REAL fight needs to be at the State level and for House seats. You win your third party in stages, not in a corporatist, Reaganomics trickle-down way, but in a movement that starts from the local level and works its way up! For a state seat old-fashion stumping by members who believe in the movement will beat money every time. The districts are small enough that you really can send volunteers out to talk one-on-one with people. Even in the House this is just about possible.

Forget the President, unless you really do want McSame, in which case, by all means vote for anyone other than Obama....that'll teach 'em. Work on it from the local level, nationally organized, with common purpose.

Quit thinking 'trickle-down'. Quit thinking like corporatist managers. Start thinking like a movement with some serious staying power; like a party that expects to eventually WIN!

ezeflyer July 20th, 2008 1:16 pm

Repug shills and lurkers inhabit CD

Go shills and lurkers, i'll read ya!

The vast majority of Americans are moderates and slightly left-leaning moderates. Bush got elected by fooling americans into thinking he was more or less middle of the road. After 9-11 he got reelected by using fear and waving the flag. A strongly left-leaning politician will never win the presidency unless he's a consumate liar and pretends he's mainly moderate. Obama is the closest thing we're likely to ever get with a realistic chance to win. Some of you pie-in-the-sky types who think the green party has a chance are far more likely to ultimately bring on some ungodly awful true fascism after the crazies who control the republican party have hoovered up all the money.

physicscitizen July 20th, 2008 4:53 pm writes "You win your third party in stages"
-And how the hell will we do that when all the DPAs (Democratic Party apologists) continue voting for Democrats no matter how Republican they become? You are in their pockets pal.

If the Democrats can't win without us they should fold their tattered and traitorous tents and joins the Greens. At least that way could could genuinely call themselves an opposition party which is not what they are now.

DPAs please explain why your Democrats:
1) Refuse to stop funding the war
2) Refuse to impeach Bush
3) Refuse to hold Bush accountable for torturing
4) Allow right-wingers like Mukasey and others to be confirmed
5) Confirmed right-wingers into the Supreme Court
6) Rubber stamp gargantuan military budgets
7) Allow Bush to spew 935 lies about the war
8) Allow Cheny to out CIA agents and defy subpoenas
9) Granted Bush and the Telecoms immunity
10) Insert your favorite Democratic Party capitulation here

I say punish the sold out bastards and if they lose it's their God damned fault not ours!

All I hear from DPAs is lesser-evilism, now is not the time, and 3rd parties can't win. How can they win when so many so-called "liberals "continue voting for the Democratic-Republican Party?

I can just hear the idiotic cries of, "Republican shills....Republican shills...." What a sorry and weak non argument. Is that the best you can do? How about answer the questions and defend your candidate!

Physicscitizen, we are on the same page.

tailcap: PLease re-read my post.

I am not defending the Democrats. I am deploring the methods used by current third parties...and inparticular the town-criers on sites like this.

My model is the Vermont Progressive Party. Or even the Liberal Democrats in the United Kingdom (the UK ALSO has a system which is very difficult for a third party to take hold). Both are making important gains. (Though the Liberal Democrats sometimes shoot themselves in the foot...but I digress.)

Study them well. Build your movement from below.
Quit thinking in trickle-down politics but think in bottom-up terms.

Calling me an apologist isn't going to keep McSame from winning the election.

Or Obama for that matter.

physicscitizen - Absolutely EXCELLENT!!! Unfortunately, we should have listened to your logic starting about 16 years ago. But you are right, the only power we have to change things is on a more local level. Especially in the House where some of the critters actually listen to their constituents. Unlike our Senators who do the most damage and don't really care about the people at all.

I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter who is the next POTUS. The powers that be already own the agenda for the executive branch of government. Obama will not be much different that McSame. It's the old "Meet the new boss; same as the old boss". Obama lost me when he couldn't even uphold his current oath of office to protect the Constitution. His vote to gut the 4th amendment and trash the rule of law was the last straw. It doesn't matter what comes out of his mouth. His vote cannot be explained except as political positioning at the expense of American freedoms.

So, given that I still want my vote to actually count, I'm totally focused on unseating my senator who has also broken his oath of office. Unfortunately, the dimwits backed a party hack in the primaries, instead of an EXCELLENT peoples' candidate. But, oh well. It was a good primary.

And I am totally committed to holding Pelosi accountable for her traitorous actions. And the only way to do that is to support Cindy Sheehan. This race is the single most important way to send a message to the dimwits that they cannot afford to ignore their base and the American people. Can you imagine the fallout from such a thing? WAHOOooo!!!!

Oh, and just for the record, I don't think that liberals are the only ones being screwed by the current party system. Can you imagine what it must be like for Repugs that consider themselves to be fiscal conservatives? Their only hope was Ron Paul, and look what they have to contend with! Jeez, Louise. We're ALL being worked over by this corrupt system!

Greg R 5:03 pm " Obama is the closest thing we're likely to ever get with a realistic chance to win. Some of you pie-in-the-sky types who think the green party has a chance are far more likely to ultimately bring on some ungodly awful true fascism after the crazies who control the republican party have hoovered up all the money."

Greg, Greg, Greg, you must be new to CD.

You sound way too pragmatic and reasoning for the leftie purists on this website. To make any post here you have to hate capitalism (even though that's how Nader, McKinney and 98% of CommonDreams hypocrites make their living) and think 9-11 was a US government conspiracy.

And above all, refuse to work with anyone who doesn't fit a purist worldview.

Then you'll be liked. You'll have no real power in influencing policy in this country, but CD people will like you. What's more important than that!!!

hahahahahaha :-D

If readers to this site have ever learned anything...IT'S THAT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN.
Get it ...BROKEN
Yet you say progressives need to work within that broken system. Good luck to you, I disagree.
Reality Check

The Democrats Are The Real Problem

By Mike Whitney

20/07/08 "ICH" -- -- Obama's candidacy is over; kaput. He's already stated that he has no intention of stopping the war, so he has disqualified himself. That's his prerogative; no one put a gun to his head. His op-ed in Monday's New York Times just removes any lingering doubt about the matter. What Obama proposes is moving the central theater of operation from Iraq to Afghanistan. Big deal. Why is it more acceptable to kill a man who is fighting for his country in Afghanistan than in Iraq?

It's not; which is why Obama must be defeated and the equivocating Democratic Party must be jettisoned altogether. The Democrats are a party of blood just like the Republicans, they're just more discreet about it. That's why people who are serious about ending the war have to support candidates outside the two-party charade. The Democrat/Republican duopoly will not deliver the goods; it's as simple as that. The point is to stop the killing, not to provide blind support for smooth-talking politicos who try to mask their real intentions. Obama made his choice, now he can suffer the consequences.

Nancy Pelosi is a perfect example of what the Democrats are all about. Just look at the way she brushed aside the people who got her elected. They mean nothing to her. In a matter of months, the "San Francisco liberal" has achieved what former-Speaker of the House Hastert could only dream of; she's driven the Congress' public approval ratings into single digits for the first time in history making her the worst speaker of all time. She rubber-stamped the FISA bill, concealed what she knew about the CIA's global torture programs, and vowed to stop any public effort to hold the administration accountable for its war crimes. (No impeachment) She has betrayed her most ardent supporters and singlehandedly transformed an already-emasculated congress into a purely ceremonial body incapable of doing the people's work.

At least Bush never betrayed any of his supporters. Never. Pelosi is worse than Bush, much worse.

And yet, liberals still insist that we should vote the Democratic ticket. In your dreams!

What leftist or progressive is not totally fed-up with the Democrats cagey "bait-and-switch" hypocrisy? Voting the Democratic ticket is not a sign of "hope"; it's a sign of being a schmuck. The Democrats have done nothing to stop the war and will do nothing to stop the war. The Obama candidacy is merely a way to replace one group of genocidal maniacs with another. Who needs a charismatic, flannel-mouth glamor boy to lead us into battle when a senile fogy with "anger management" issues will do just fine.

Voters of conscience should reject that choice altogether. Just as they should reject the "lesser of two evils" theory which does not apply when ordinance is being dumped daily on innocent civilians. It has to stop.

Obama is not an antiwar candidate, that is merely a fiction maintained by his public relations team. In fact, he wants to beef up the military with 65,000 additional ground forces and 27,000 more marines. He's also stated that he will add "two additional combat brigades to Afghanistan" and encourage NATO to make "greater contributions—with fewer restrictions". In his op-ed he boasted, "As president, I will make the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban the top priority that it should be. This is a war that we have to win."

He also added this ominous warning:

"The greatest threat to that security lies in the tribal regions of Pakistan, where terrorists train and insurgents strike into Afghanistan. We cannot tolerate a terrorist sanctuary, and as president, I won't. We need a stronger and sustained partnership between Afghanistan, Pakistan and NATO to secure the border, to take out terrorist camps and to crack down on cross-border insurgents. We need more troops, more helicopters, more satellites, more Predator drones in the Afghan border region. And we must make it clear that if Pakistan cannot or will not act, we will take out high-level terrorist targets like bin Laden if we have them in our sights."

OBAMA; THE CANDIDATE FOR ESCALATION

Obama supporters should take their candidate at his word. What he is proposing is a dramatic escalation and expansion of the war into another sovereign country. How is this consistent with the demands of his base or the millions of Americans who believe that Obama represents real change.

It's time for a reality check; the Democrats are the real problem not the Republicans. If the path to peace requires crushing the Democratic Party and its blood-thirsty candidates; so be it. The main thing is to stop the killing. If Obama won't do it; we'll find someone who will.

How can we avoid the blogger only blogging each other?

Instead of blogging why not type into the mainstram--like here. NEVER BEFORE HAVE PEOPLE ON THE SO CALLED MSM BEEN MORE RECEPTIVE TO THE IDEA THAT BOTH PARTIES ARE FOR THE BILLIONAIRES. WE JUST NEED MORE PEOPLE TYPING THERE INSTEAD OF ONLY ON ALTERNATIVE MARGINALIZED SITES!

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=6&topicdays=0&start=12

physicscitizen
Very nice comments about building a progressive party from the community you live in. Yup here in Maine we are doing just that. Not based on parties but what we vote on to do for ourselves. We have a great library now in a town of less than 1,000. A farmer's market and we are working on a "goods market". We are also working on a wireless umbrella to connect us at better than dial up speed.

So how does it work that the telecom industry writes the laws and sits on the boards that govern wireless systems and are preventing us from getting service to people who do not even have phones to call 911 when their child is injured or their house is in flames. While Obama, constitutional scholar, lawyer and Senator that placed his hand on the bible and swore to up hold the constitution votes for FISA and destruction of the 4th amendment. AT&T will pass out bags full of bribes to conventioneers in Denver.

Can you explain how we build community here and can accomplish our community goals of connectivity so we can be a part of the global community while Obama kisses the ass of the companies that have gotten the country that invented the internet into 22nd place in price, speed and connectivity in the world. We have the most expensive, worst service and slowest speed of all developed nations.Average speeds less than 1mbs.

Then explain our poorest, most expensive health care in the industrial world.
Then education.
Then labor union coverage.

Voting for McCain or Obama gets you wars and corporate rule. Sooner or later they will come to brake up your farmers market, goods market and any alternative system you may create for you and your families health, safety or community.

You go girl. Go to that convention and collect AT&T's bag of key chains, soaps and perfumes. Then buy plastic sheeting and duck tape for the next coming war that Obama plans in Afganistan. Get some band aids as falling industrial jobs turns you into a service worker without health insurance. Servus is Latin for slave, get it? Get rid of your guns cuz when Obama's police come to force you into paying for national health insurance which is about insurance not health you do not want guns in the house. Just like Iraq, They were armed we had to shoot them.

What you gonna do...what you gonna to do when they come for you? Vote for the candidate that you think best represents your progressive view of your community. Work on the local level. Don't buy what they sell or rent yourself to them. Either demos or repubs are serving the same dish. Does not matter which you get they taste the same.

MikeBinSC n pysicscitizen

Same but not on the last page of history!

Vote D, or esel 3rd party'll lose to McCain an histories gone!

kman2: Please don't get me started on the 911 conspiracy theorists. They are our own home-grown equivalent of the climate-change deniers.

Just goes to show that all parts of the political spectrum are fully capable of shutting their brains off.

........ You're probably right about the rest of your post though. :)

kman2 says:

"And above all, refuse to work with anyone who doesn't fit a purist worldview."
Well there ya have it-the DLC in collusion with the major networks wouldn't allow Dennis Kucinich in on the televised debates, but...according to you, C.D.er's ("leftie purists") won't work with anybody who doesn't fit....what view?
You make my point very well...thank you!

Greg R, you should listen to kman2, that IS the way it is here, and Norma, read all the comments, I think we agree.

"Who needs a charismatic, flannel-mouth glamor boy to lead us into battle when a senile fogy with "anger management" issues will do just fine."

Beautiful phrase :once in a while we need a bit of insightful humour like this.

MikeBinSC, kman2- yes, I know.

Just as I thought, not one DPA (Dem Party apologist) is up to the task of apologizing for all of the Democratic Party capitulations and explaining why it is Democrats are not traitors. I will reissue the challenge:
1) Explain what the Democrats have done in the last 8 years that merits a vote.
2) Explain why we should vote for Democrats in terms that aren't lesser-evilism.

No explanation will be given. Instead, we are to listen to the likes of physicscitizen (who sounds reasonable) and kman2 (who sounds like an idiot) and just do as physicscitizen claims we are already doing; "shutting their brains off" and continue voting for the very people who are selling us, our Constitution, our Bill of rights and our tax money down the river to enrich the PTB (powers that be).

Who is it that has shut off their brains? The ones that got fed up bashing their heads against the same brick wall or the morons that keep doing it?

kman2--Thanks for reminding us that 911 was a US government conspiracy. We tend to forget if you don't remind us often.

"5% for Cynthia McKinney will do more to change America than a solid win for Obama."

Aside from the fact that that will never, ever happen... how exactly do you figure?

All the talk about how there is no difference between the 2 parties sounds like the talk of privileged white liberals. Ask the people of Haiti if they want John McCain and his International Republican Institute in charge. Or the people of Venezuela. Or Iran. Or any of the other desperately poor nations that absolutely feel a difference between a Republican and a Democrat administration in Washington.

How easy for rich white people to yammer on about how there is no difference, or to flip out when Obama acts like what he is- a mainstream Democrat. Obama's FISA vote was pandering and stupid and safe. And so, to the people of Haiti: Let Them Eat Mud.

physicscitizen: "You start by fielding candidates in state races EVERYWHERE. You start small and you get known."

Progressives are organizing at the local level and are putting our principles into practice, individually and locally. All of this is happening. But while we are organizing locally why should we vote against our principles in the national elections? Those votes are merely exploited by the massively corrupt extreme right gutter dwellers - Repuks/Demoks. The fatal flaw in the "lesser evilism" is that it amounts to defeatism - the people's submission to the rule of elites. We prefer to use the national elections as a stage for showcasing our principles - progressive principles. Do the Demoks really need us to help them reign in the Repuks? Then let them earn our vote by moving their sorry butts to the left, i.e. abandon Iraq and impeach the criminals by election day.

"Voting third party at this stage is voting Republican. Face it, the audience you're preaching to is already converted. The rest of your target is fast asleep."

How friggin' dare you, you conceited Democrat. When I vote for a third party or Ralph Nader I am voting FOR a third party or Ralph Nader. If your Democratic Party didn't back stab the working class, didn't enable BushCo to invade and occupy Iraq, didn't give the criminals in the White House everything they wanted including the PATRIOT ACT, FISA/spying immunity, funding the war, torture, etc., then I would be voting Democrat. You know why I'm voting for Ralph Nader? Because you and your Democratic Party behave like Republicans. You see, it's called projection and it won't work any longer. I say, take your vote AWAY from the Democrats to the point where they notice and watch how fast the opportunists come kissing your behind to get your vote back.
_
As for the guy who wants voters to ask what the people of Haiti and Venezuela want for a U.S. president, these people don't vote here. And oh, by the way, haven't you noticed that Democrats vote with Republicans on issues pertaining to these countries. Lest we forget, who gave us NAFTA? Bill Clinton. Spare the rich white liberal guilt crap and bigotry.
_
As for those who accuse non mainstream voters of being purist, well hah, rich white liberal Nancy Pelosi and the party powerful have muzzled impeachment Democrats and taken "impeachment off the table." How's that for being a purist? Protect and defend the U.S. Constitution? Bull. Run. Ralph. Run! You can see why you must clearly enough.

How to identify a Republican shill on CD:

1. Usually criticizes Obama exclusively.

2. Pretends Dems are as bad or worse than the Repugs.

3. Admonishes, pleads and exhorts you to vote third party like a broken record.

4. Insults others and uses foul language to create division.

5. Makes like he or she is more progressive than thou.

6. Feigns outrage at people like me.

7. Is an unfamiliar poster.

8. Repeats his anti-Obama mantra constantly.

9. The dumb ones are easy to spot as per above.

10. The smarter ones will give you a long heartfelt spiel ending in why they're not voting for the lesser of two evils.

11. They all disregard the fact that voting for third parties elects McCain.

12. They base their arguments on "moral principles".

13. They spend the whole day posting long arguments on CD because they get paid by the hour.

14. They are organized and can be bussed anywhere to disrupt recounts at a moment's notice.

15. Anytime any candidate is mentioned in a CD article, they jump in to bash Obama.

16. They'll sometimes bash Obama no matter if the article concerns growing lettuce.

17. They dig up and post obscure stuff Obama is supposed to have said.

18. They seldom if ever mention or criticize McCain, Republicans or conservatives unless they happen to be Democrats.

19. Republicans and Zionists have sunk so low that stealing elections is not enough for them to win and now they lurk here. By their actions thou shalt know them.

Tailcap July 20th, 2008 7:26 pm -"I will reissue the challenge: 1) Explain what the Democrats have done in the last 8 years that merits a vote."

I can, and I will answer your question, but first, you answer one for me, that I have asked on numerous other threads here on CD about this same subject.

How is voting for Nader or any other third party candidate with no chance to win, going to make America, or the world, a safer, more progressive, better place in which to live? WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? PLEASE SHARE IT WITH THE REST OF US FOOLS WHO DON'T SEE IT!

Ezeflyer, I think they are paid by the hour, with a bonus on word count!

ezeflyer July 20th, 2008 8:43 pm
How to identify a Republican shill on CD:
-typical lack of arguments.

Your list does not substitute for addressing issues. Like I told you last time, lets pretend you're right and I am paid minimum wage by Republicans to present you with arguments you have no answers to. How does that invalidate the argument?

Why does your antiwar candidate support the war?
-answer: Republican shill...Republican shill.. (do you actually think that's an answer?)

You are s serious waste of time and I think I'll quit wasting it.

MikeBinSC July 20th, 2008 8:57 pm
I can, and I will answer your question, but first, you answer one for me, that I have asked on numerous other threads here on CD about this same subject.
-You answer mine first. I asked you first. And I did answer you, maybe you didn't see it.

1) Explain what the Democrats have done in the last 8 years that merits a vote.
2) Explain why we should vote for Democrats in terms that aren't lesser-evilism.