'Justifying' Torture: Two Big Lies
One can assume that former Attorney General John Ashcroft didn't mean it to be funny, but his testimony on Thursday before the House Judiciary Committee might strike one as hilarious, were it not for the issue at hand -- torture.
Ashcroft is the Attorney General who approved torture before he disapproved it, but committee members spared him accusations of flip-flopping.
He explained that he initially blessed the infamous torture memoranda drafted by Justice Department lawyer John Yoo and others in mid-2002 because he (Ashcroft) believed it imperative to afford the President "the benefit of genuine doubt" regarding how to protect American lives in the "war on terror."
But Ashcroft added that, despite this, when concerns about that earlier guidance for interrogations were brought to his attention, changing his mind "was not a hard decision for me." A very flexible Attorney General.
"The benefit of genuine doubt?" Perhaps Ashcroft thought that this genteel way of looking at things would appeal to the poorly led, motley group calling itself the House Committee on the Judiciary, chaired by Rep. John Conyers, D-Michigan.
But the rest of us, whose time does not expire in five minutes, cannot buy his defense of torture. For it is based on two demonstrable lies.
Lie Number One
According to Ashcroft, "The administration's overriding goal...was to do everything in its power and within the limits of the law...to keep this country safe from terrorist attack."
His is merely the latest in a string of torture-exculpating statements adduced to document a myth; namely, that the Bush administration, having failed to prevent the attacks of 9/11, pulled out all the stops to keep us safe from a second attack; and that one of the necessary measures introduced was torture.
It was a situational thing, you see. But even that explanation does not survive close scrutiny.
First, for those with a strong stomach, a sample of recent statements; then proof of their transparency in aiming to create an exculpatory myth:
-- On May 22, 2008, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice publicly discussed the use of enhanced interrogation techniques: "After Sept. 11, whatever was legal in the face of not just the attacks of Sept. 11, but the anthrax attacks that happened, we were in an environment in which saving America from the next attack was paramount."
-- On June 5, 2008, CIA Director Michael Hayden told Jim Angle of Fox News that it was fear of an imminent attack that led to the controversial interrogation practices - including waterboarding, which Hayden referred to as a "high-end interrogation technique."
"Keep in mind...you have the nation suffering, reeling from a recent attack in which 3,000 citizens had been killed, until it was the collective judgment of the American government that these techniques would be appropriate and lawful in these circumstances."
-- On June 26, 2008, testifying before the Conyers committee, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff David Addington added, with some flair: "Smoke was still rising...3,000 Americans were just killed." Dana Milbank of the Washington Post used the quote to show how Addington "justified his legal reasoning" regarding enhanced interrogation techniques.
Since members of the Judiciary Committee did little to expose the myth, let us try to help.
Selective Urgency
The sense of pressing urgency conjured up by Bush administration folks to justify torture does not square with Coleen Rowley's direct personal experience in the FBI.
As some will remember, the FBI's joint terrorism task force in Minneapolis had detained Zacarias Moussaoui on Aug. 16, 2001. Flight school pilots acting as whistleblowers had notified the FBI, against the wishes of their airline employer, of detailed information making Moussaoui the most suspicious student they had ever encountered.
French intelligence soon supplied further background confirming Moussaoui's fighting for a "foreign power" -- Chechnyan rebels, whose leader was connected to al-Qaeda. By Aug. 23, the case was deemed so suspicious, it went all the way to the top of the intelligence community, to Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet, in a PowerPoint presentation entitled: "Islamic Extremist Learns to Fly."
As Rowley revealed in her letter of May 21, 2002, to FBI Director Robert Mueller, there was considerable frustration in her FBI unit in Minneapolis over the inability of FBI headquarters to get its act together and present these facts pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to obtain the secret FISA Court's permission to search Moussaoui's personal effects and laptop computer in the days before 9-11.
Odd Reactions
But once the attacks took place on 9-11, confirming the Minneapolis FBI unit's worst fears and finally overcoming FBI Headquarters' reluctance to conduct further searches of Moussaoui's belongings, there was still little sense of urgency.
At that point, Moussaoui sat atop the list of prime sources for information about any "second wave" of attacks. But the Justice Department persisted in its refusal to allow agents to attempt to interview Moussaoui even after the attacks.
During the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, the acting U.S. Attorney denied the unit permission to interview Moussaoui.
Rowley -- having seen what just had transpired due, at least in part, to the FBI unit having accepted No for an answer in August -- decided to go a rung higher by calling Justice officials in the FBI's Command Post in Washington on the morning of Sept. 12.
In that conversation, Rowley repeatedly drew attention to the Supreme Court decision (New York v Quarles, 467 U.S. 649, 1984) granting an "exigent-circumstances" exception to the Miranda rule in cases where an interview is judged necessary to protect public safety.
Rowley was told by Justice Department officials that "no such public emergency existed." This is what Rowley encountered on 9/11 and 9/12.
Moussaoui remained the only al-Qaeda terrorist in custody for many months, but the Justice Department's ban on interviewing him remained in place -- at huge potential cost by forfeiting the possibility of acquiring information on other terrorist activities about which Moussaoui was very probably aware.
This is not merely theoretical. It appears that Moussaoui almost certainly was acquainted with Richard Reid, the "shoe bomber" who on Dec. 22, 2001, almost succeeded in blowing up American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami with nearly 200 people aboard.
So, in Rowley's May 21, 2002, letter to FBI Director Mueller, she reminded him that if, as he claimed, priority was now being given to prevention over prosecution, the FBI needed to explore how to apply the Quarles "public safety" exception.
Rowley also reminded Mueller that Minneapolis had not only been prevented from further investigation of Moussaoui before 9/11 but also was prohibited from interviewing him after the attacks on that day.
Muzzling Moussaoui
Rowley tried again in early July 2002, after learning that Moussaoui was hinting he wanted to talk. She called then-Assistant Attorney General Michael Chertoff to note the opportunity missed by not interviewing Moussaoui -- particularly in view of the suggestive information found on his laptop computer regarding crop dusting and wind currents.
Chertoff was not available; one of his assistants gave Rowley the brush-off.
Rowley's last try came on Feb. 26, 2003, when she wrote the following as part of a longer letter to Director Mueller:
"If, as you have said, 'prevention of another terrorist attack remains the FBI's top priority,' why is it that we have not attempted to interview Zacarias Moussaoui, the only suspect in U.S. custody charged with having a direct hand in the horror of 9/11?... Moussaoui almost certainly would know of other al-Qaeda contacts, possibly in the U.S., and would also be able to alert us to the motive behind his and Mohammed Atta's interest in crop dusting.
"Similarly, there is the question as to why little or no apparent effort has been made to interview convicted terrorist Richard Reid, who obviously depended upon other al-Qaeda operatives in fashioning his shoe explosive. Nor have possible links between Moussaoui and Reid been fully investigated...
"In short ... lack of follow-through with regard to Moussaoui and Reid gives a hollow ring to our 'top priority.'"
It may be that Mueller, too, felt powerless at that point but, for whatever reason, he did not respond.
In sum, Rowley's personal experience, and lots else, persuaded her that the please-understand-we-were-just-doing-all-we-could-to-prevent-a-second-wave-of-attacks excuse for torture is bogus -- an outrageous lie.
The time is far past when the President and his torture apprentices should be accorded "the benefit of genuine doubt," to quote again from Ashcroft's testimony.
(Remember, too, that in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, President George W. Bush allowed prominent Saudis, including members of Osama bin Laden's family, to be whisked out of the United States aboard private jets after only cursory interviews with the FBI.)
The Real Reasons Behind Torture?
What, then, accounts for the descent into Inquisition practices of waterboarding and other torture techniques? What accounts for the bizarre decision to round up a whole bunch of people with no provable attachment to terrorism, designate them terrorist suspects, herd them into prisons in New York, New Jersey, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and God knows where else, where they could be -- and were -- abused?
What accounts for the blithe departure from international and national law -- not to mention time-honored civilized procedures for dealing with prisoners and detainees?
What accounts for the marginalization of those military, FBI and other professionals who warned that torture is not only a war crime but also that it doesn't yield reliable information -- that, rather, it is the very best recruiting tool for terrorists?
We suggest four reasons why I-don't-care-what-the-international-lawyers-say George Bush and dark-side Dick Cheney opted for torture:
1 -- Deceit: Granted, torture does not yield truthful information. It can, though, be an excellent way to obtain the untruthful information you may wish to acquire. All you really need to know is what you want the victims to "confess" to and torture them, or render them abroad to "friendly" intelligence services toward the same end.
One case that speaks volumes is that of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, who was captured and rendered to Egypt, where, under torture, he told his interrogators precisely what they wanted to hear.
According to the Defense Intelligence Agency, al-Libi had been identified as a likely fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements to prove that Iraq trained al-Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons.
Without mentioning al-Libi by name, President Bush, Vice President Cheney, then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and other administration officials repeatedly cited information from his interrogation as credible evidence that Iraq was training al-Qaeda members in the use of explosives and illicit weapons.
So torture can indeed provide the information you may want to have to grease the skids for war. Al-Libi was practically the poster boy for the Cheney/Bush torture regime; that is, until he publicly recanted and explained that he only told his interrogators what he thought would stop the torture.
2 -- Sadism: Cheney's open advocacy of waterboarding speaks volumes, but what about the President? Sad to say, as psychiatrist Justin Frank, author of Bush on the Couch, has noted:
"Bush's certitude that he is right gives him carte blanche for destructive behavior. He has always had a sadistic streak: from blowing up frogs, to shooting his siblings with a BB gun, to branding fraternity pledges with white-hot coat hangers (explaining that the resulting wound was 'only a cigarette burn')...
"His comfort with cruelty is one reason he can be so jocular...Instead of seeing a President in anguish, we watch him publicly joking about the absence of 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, in the vain search for which so many young Americans died."
3 -- Intimidation: Are you perhaps in some "shock and awe" at the prospect of the President designating you an "enemy combatant" and sending you off to the Navy brig in South Carolina for an indefinite stay? He now has court approval to do precisely that, and we are proceeding on faith that this joint article will not bring us "enhanced interrogation techniques."
Indefinite imprisonment is bad enough, but with the fringe benefit of the kind of torture suffered by Jose Padilla? Well, let us just say that the open advocacy of waterboarding and other "harsh" methods may, just may, be aimed at throwing the fear of Cheney into us, as a way of dissuading those of us who still believe in the Constitution from attempting to hold accountable those who break the law.
4 -- Because We Can: Lord Acton was, of course, right. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And closeness to it does the same.
Guided by the principle of an unaccountable unitary executive - not to mention the writings of torture apologist Alan Dershowitz, the acting performances of the torture evangelists on Scalia's TV favorite, Fox's "24," and using the fear factor to a fare-thee-well - torture has become the bellwether of exclusive dominant power.
The very transparency of the excuses for torture serves to demonstrate that this kind of power is in place, and is not to be questioned.
Lie Number 2: Torture Saves Lives
It was hard to know whether to laugh or to cry. John Ashcroft insisting that according to "the reports I have heard, and I have no reason to disbelieve them, these techniques are very valuable."
Ashcroft's source? He indicated that it is none other than former CIA Director George Tenet, who wrecked the CIA by creating a Gestapo in the operations directorate and cultivating fawning boot-lickers among managers of analysis.
To say Tenet's reputation for truthfulness leaves much to be desired would be the kind of self-evident revelation that CIA analysts were accustomed to assigning to their tongue-in-cheek "Great Moments in Intelligence" file.
It is, nonetheless, the White House line. Not only Ashcroft and Hayden, but also David Addington and John Yoo rang changes on the theme in their recent testimony before the aging Conyers.
Both Addington and Yoo argued that harsh interrogation methods had been crucial in preventing another terrorist attack on the U.S. after 9/11.
On Thursday, Republican members of the House Judiciary Committee picked up the theme, arguing that waterboarding and other harsh tactics yielded information that saved lives.
Rep. Elton Gallegly, R-California: "Had we not used those, would the probability of another attack not only be a probability but a certainty?"
Ashcroft: "It could well have been."
Have you, finally, no shame, Mr. Ashcroft? There is not a scintilla of evidence to support that claim. And, again, we are far past the point where the President and his torture apprentices merit "the benefit of genuine doubt." Not the way they continue to play fast and loose with the truth.
Quod Est Veritas?
Here it is the President himself, with his remarkable contempt for truth, who sets the tone.
Dr. Frank points out that contempt itself is a defense, a form of self-protection of Bush's belief system, in which he clings to his beliefs as if they were well researched facts: "Bush's pathology is a patchwork of false beliefs and incomplete information woven into what he asserts is the whole truth."
And Cheney, Fox News, and the rest of the fawning corporate media (FCM) follow suit. What is truth? Go ask Pontius Bush.
Trouble is, the truth usually gets out, and the President is beginning to squirm. One highly disturbing fact, from the President's point of view, emerged Thursday in the questioning of Ashcroft by Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-New York.
Nadler noted that "high-value" detainee Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded after his arrest in March 2002, and Nadler asked Ashcroft whether that happened before the memos from John Yoo justifying such activity were drafted. Ashcroft said he didn't know.
Nadler, at least, had done some homework. The videotapes of Zubaydah's interrogation were among those destroyed by the CIA, for obvious reasons. Nadler is really asking on whose authority Zubaydah was waterboarded, since Addington and Yoo had not yet completed their ex-post-facto legal acrobatics.
The congressman knows the answer. The reason that CIA interrogators felt comfortable waterboarding is quite simply that the President of the United States cleared the way for such techniques with his Action Memorandum of Feb. 7, 2002.
When FBI agents were taken off the job of interrogating Zubaydah and became aware of the "techniques" being applied by their CIA colleagues, they questioned their use. They were told by CIA interrogators at the scene that the methods were approved "at the highest levels" and that no one would get in any trouble.
But what about the main contention of Lie Number Two? Has torture saved lives? Milt Bearden, a 30-year veteran of CIA's operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, doesn't believe it for a minute:
"The administration's claims of having 'saved thousands of Americans' can be dismissed out of hand because credible evidence has never been offered -- not even an authoritative leak of any major terrorist operation interdicted based on information gathered from these interrogations in the past seven years. ... It is irresponsible for any administration not to tell a credible story that would convince critics at home and abroad that this torture has served some useful purpose."
Bearden said professionals he describes as the "old hands" in the CIA, the ones who know something of interrogation and intelligence, don't believe administration claims. Worse still, they say, torture is counterproductive:
"This is not just because the old hands overwhelmingly believe that torture doesn't work -- it doesn't -- but also because they know that torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize."
Bearden argues that if the claims of the Bush White House were true, it ought to stop hiding always behind the readily adduced need to protect sources and methods. He notes that in 1986 after the U. S. bombed Libya in retaliation for a Libyan operation that killed U.S. servicemen in Berlin, there was worldwide skepticism and consternation.
The Reagan administration decided it owed the world an explanation and decided it would be worth sacrificing a very sensitive method; namely, the ability to intercept Libyan encoded messages. Ironically, the Libyan message made public spoke of the successful operation, "without leaving a trace behind."
Frittering Five Minutes With Feith
One might ask why Conyers has not thought of inviting experienced professionals like Milt Bearden to testify.
One might also ask why Conyers continues to let people like Addington, Yoo, Douglas Feith, and now Ashcroft make a mockery of the committee's attempts to hold hearings on these historically important issues.
How painful it is to watch as the Bush administration's witnesses quibble about semantics, make sweeping assertions of executive privilege, and run out the five-minute clock on each congressman's questions.
Impeachment is what the Founders envisioned for the situation we face at present.
Quick, someone download for Congressman Conyers the President's Action Memorandum of Feb. 7, 2002, which provided the loophole through which George Tenet and Donald Rumsfeld drove the Mack truck of torture.
That memo is all you need, John. It is signed at the bottom with felt-pen strokes one and half inches high. If that's not good enough for the Judiciary Committee chairman, then please let members and staff go home for an early vacation and spare all of us further humiliation.
Coleen Rowley, a FBI special agent for almost 24 years, was legal counsel to the FBI Field Office in Minneapolis from 1990 to 2003. She retired at the end of 2004, and now writes and speaks on ethical decision-making and balancing civil liberties with the need for effective investigation. Ray McGovern, a former Army Infantry/Intelligence officer and then a CIA analyst for 27 years, now works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. Both serve on the Steering Committee of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
Distributed by Constortiumnews.com
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20 Comments so far
Show AllThe fifth "real reason" is alluded to in the text but deserves its own bullet point: far from protecting us against terrorists, the torture in question is quite possibly intended to create more terrorists and increase the chances of terrorist strikes against Americans in the next few decades. As several prominent Republicans have remarkably let slip, terrorism is a great advantage for the Republican Party, quite possibly the greatest. Both torture and the Iraq invasion are beautiful schemes in that regard, because they are so easy to sell to the uneducated and thoughtless as being exactly the opposite of what they really are. If I were one of the sadistic, traitorous criminals who came up with these ideas, I'd spend a lot of time cracking my knuckles and cackling, knowing that I am working the ultimate diabolical scam and guaranteed to get away with it. Whew. It would make Crowley the demon shake his head in disbelieving admiration.
"I'm accusing the Left of flip flopping on torture without offering a explanation for the transition."
Massud,
Since "the Left" split to go get a cup of coffee, I guess I'll have to offer my own point of view. Torture is torture is torture, regardless of ideology or rationalization.
For future reference, it's much easier to get explanations from real people rather than monolithic abstractions like "the Left."
Thomas More said,
"Everyone knows exactly what torture is, we all know its wrong, and anyone that authorized it or indulged in it should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I don't see any other point of view on this as valid."
I agree with you 100%, as do all those people (whether left, right, up, or down) who still operate at a higher moral level than a slime mold.
What sickens and saddens me is that the ethical equation "torture = evil" is in question in the 21st century. What will the USA call into question next? The idea that cannibalism is a no-no? The ethics of slavery? Toddlers sent to mine coal?
I'm definitely not looking forward to the rest of the 21st century...
Trust the Russians to come up with a typically cynical thought; "Torture only hurts if you are guilty". All of the supporters of torture should have it tattooed, or better yet, carved onto their foreheads.
Massus
It is torture.
Does anyone know how to find contact information for Feith. I want to write to him. Can't find an email address.
libertysghost;
I wasn't defending or advocating anything. I'm accusing the Left of flip flopping on torture without offering a explanation for the transition.
Just to clear this up, the vast majority of Americans bought the idea that the Mossad, and or Mossad/CIA, attack on America 11 Sept 2001 was a terrorist attack. And, then, most of you were happy when the missiles and bombs were falling on Iraq in Mar of 2003, at the start of the unnecessary war of choice for Israel. And, the sheeple supported Evil Bush and the NeoCons throughout
2004, 2005, and 2006, and into 2007. Then, the overwhelming evidence that the USA had, in fact, tortured and murdered captives began to sink in. And, too late, you came to realize that there was NO connection between Iraq and al Queda, or the 911 attacks. Now, what have you done??
It is too late. The problem in resolving this disgrace is that the only political entity that could bring redress is the Democrat Party. But, the Democrats can not do that, as the Democrats are equally guilty as the Republicans in supporting torture and the unnecessary war of choice. So, there will be no salvation. The NeoCons that rule America perfected the Nazi tactic of the BIG LIE. Take a look at Goering's words at Nuremberg. They exactly describe what the NeoCons did to this country. Reid, Pelosi and Hoyer are totally under the control of AIPAC. You have been scammed. If you do not believe that, checkout Frum, Bolton, Fleischer, Wurmser, Feith, Wolfowitz, Perle, Libby,
Addington, Adelson, Mukasey, and all the chickenhawk warmongers whose children are NOT in the US military. Nazis were executed after Nuremberg for crimes just like those of the Bushers. But, one bright spot....the managers of private equity and hedge fund operations will have their hundreds of millions, or billions of annual income taxed at the 15% rate.
Everyone knows exactly what torture is, we all know its wrong, and anyone that authorized it or indulged in it should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
I don't see any other point of view on this as valid.
i thought it was interesting that, when testifying before this committee john yoo found it impossible to think of any scenario where the president would not be justified in torturing someone.
he was asked, hypothetically, about whether or not a 6 year old could be tortured and he was not able to say no that would be improper.
ray mcgovern has the problem of having been in the cia - the world`s first and foremost terrorist group for his whole career - and he does seem to be proud of his time there. was he ok with the regime changes, assassinations, wars, torture etc that was taking place while he worked there.
sounds like it.
what exactly is he complaining about i wonder.
the boy emperor is different from mcgovern`s cia only in that he like to publicly brag about what they are doing more than was the norm in the past. bush is more in your face as is the want of a bully.
the cia is a sick organization, as are the nsa, fbi, etc and so on - the president`s private army, as chalmers johnson calls them.
they should all be disbanded but i fear that, along with the military, they are beyond any oversight or control by the puppet government.
as it always is in any self-respecting fascist state.
look, the whole notion of meddling in other countries is against the law - period, but we have the whitehouse and its cronies detailing the plans going forward to get one country after another with the same amount of concern one would have for deciding what kind of sunblock one would use at the beach.
Reading Ray McGovern, former(?) CIA high level flunky, disdain torture is a little like reading Adolph Eichmann rejecting ethnic cleansing as a policy for ridding society of undesirables.
Yo Ray, who do you think developed all those nifty electroshock, psychotropic drug, sensory and sleep deprivation protocols?!! Your former (?) employer that's who!
Hey Ray (or anyone else who doubts the truth of what I am saying) google MKultra and Kubark.
The first was the CIA sponsered program to develope more effective "coercive interrogstion" (euphemism for "torture")techniques and the latter was the CIA manual that grew out of that program. A comprehensive and brief history of the whole stinking mess can be found (suitably footnoted so you can check out her sources) in Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism pp.25-48.
as long as we hold true to the absurd notion that this administration had NOTHING to do with 911 either by direct involvement or by not acting on prior information of the imminent event.... either way... they are duplicit!
torture has never been about truth... its been about demoralizing people... the inquisitionists of medieval europe were NEVER out for the truth... by using these tactics they drove people to fear and fear does what... it controls the masses...
its the only way that a few can hold onto power over thousand.... millions... billions of ppl.. thru fear... for if we ever just simply woke up one day and realized that these folks were full of shit and that it smelled just as bad as us commoners shit did... well then what would they do?
they live in fear every day that some day we'll wake up and no longer fear "them" so they have to come up with more and more vicious things to control the masses...
fear and intimidation demoralize the common man... and when that doesn't do it... the twisting of truth and out right lies will finish things off right nicely!
for those of you that would like to see history repeating itself... go out and rent goya's ghost... very enlightening i may add!
and for all of the ppl that want to fear the turbaned boogie man... may i suggest that you go out and rent arlington road ...
its amazing what ppl can be conned into believing...
and the biggest con of all.. that this admin does not hold the biggest group of terrorist all in one place
capt hill no less!
herald in 911 and voila... irrational fear now rules allowing those that would rape and pillage power to hide behind this curtain of fear.... the war on terror... dum dum dummmmmmmmm
and mz pelosi... i watched her interview with wolf blizter on CNN the other day.... i have to say... that she came off as nothing but a finger pointing whiner!!!
"its the presidents fault"
"its the senates fault"
oh phulez!!!!
the worst thing i've ever seen is the self-preservation of a politician.... its rank and cowardly... and she'd rather watch millions of Americans and middle easterners suffer this fate rather then do the right thing and let the chips fall were they may!
so many speculate that the reasoning behind these ppls actions is that they were spied on as well and that they are doing their best to hide the truth from the commoners because that would be the end of their careers... such short sighted silly ppl.... cause we the ppl have woken up... for the most part... and we will no longer be lied to!!!
so either way this womans career is over... she's just delaying the inevitable...
and who knows... we the ppl are so starved for an "honest" politician...
sorry had to step away for a moment... the tears where blurring my typing....
anyways... that if some of these politicians actually took that risky road of the truth... maybe we'd forgive them... out of shock most likely.... because we've never seen such a creature....
so pelosi.... do right by your country... the one the whole world sees... and not that one that you and your "esteemed" colleges see from the leather lined chairs of congress... and give us the truth.... and please please please spare us a bad jack nicholson impression... and the rest of us promise to spare you a bad tom cruise impression...
deal?
we're all supposed to as ordinary citizens find accountability for our lives and live within the law... and politicians apparently bought out the stock on "get out of free jail" cards from milton bradly.. and our banking system is now running off the paper money of that same game... ask the indymac customers trying to cash the checks now if that's not the case...
torture is wrong period end of story... and i always say... the best way to prove this to someone that says different...
have them submit to that which they defend... out in the open for the "public" to decide and then come back and say if that was effective!
libertysghost, you have to understand that anything "we" do
is OK. It's OK for the US to kill a million Iraqi civilians
because a few nuts from somewhere in that part of the world,
not Iraq from all investigations, killed 3000 Americans.
It's OK for the US to have nukes by the hundreds, but not
OK for Iran or North Korea. Of course they might use them
and we never wou...... oh, well, you know, we are the good
guys. Besides, those little children are brown and don't
talk to the same God Bush does.
To all those who authorized torture and for those who still defend it's use, I have a suggestion. Submit yourselves to the same "enhanced" interrogation techniques. And afterwards, while the physical and psychological trauma is still fresh come tell all of us leftist "terrorist sympathizers" that anyone subjected to the same treatment wouldn't "confess" to anything. As a former Marine infantryman who participated in an abbreviated and milder form of SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training, I would have confessed to being Jack the Ripper if I thought it's what the interrogators wanted to hear. And to Massud, who unbelievably justifies it with the "they do it to our guys, so why shouldn't we do it to theirs" excuse, use this as an analogy: What limits do we set on our treatment of detainees? Hitler used the excuse of "national security" among others to justify imprisoning and exterminating six million Jews, and an untold number of "accused" Communists and other political dissidents. Would you draw the line there, or do you feel that the deaths of 3000 Americans on 9/11 justifies the deaths of over 4000 brave young Americans since, and by most estimates over a million innocent Iraqi civilians?
Thanks once again to Ray McGovern and Coleen Rowley, with the courage and commitment to keep speaking out.
I think the key here is the last sentence, to "spare us all further humiliation."
The real problem is Speaker Pelosi, who has now agreed to allow some discussion of Bush Administration "abuse of power," with no investigation of Bush crimes and no possibility of impeachment, on one Kucinich article.
And yet she had the gall this week to call Bush the "worst President ever,"
this coming from the worst Speaker of House in history! presiding over a House with the lowest approval rating ever, and much lower than Bush.
Where are the Sam Irvins, the Barbara Jordans, who would not have bowed to the pressure of the total collaborator Pelosi? What has John Conyers really been threatened with to have been so emasculated?
I believe the best thing we can do to spare us all further humiliation and world embarassment, and show we believe first and foremost in upholding the Constitution, is to help defeat Pelosi's bid for reelection. The country really needs San Fransico's 8th Congressional District to throw this bum out!
But sometimes there is good news:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/18/2307628.htm?section=justin
Let's hope Bu$h's (and his henchmen's) day comes.
Watching the House Judiciary question Feith again. I hate Issa, Trent Franks and King, not a damn thing Honorable about those pigs, invoking the scary, horrid Muslim terrorists that flew their planes into the Tower's, Trent Franks continues, "I'd like to know when we're 'gonna stop with the same torture trials, 'cos this is the 10th one.'So John Conyers asked Franks to supply him with the documentation of ALL TEN of these boring trials.
Fking King after 2 1/2 hours, wiseass, said, "This defendant is absolutely being Tortured, he's been without water and food ALL THAT TIME, he feels so badly for Feith."
WTF is wrong with these people, ?PEOPLE?, they are as disturbed as the lot.
Issa was on the Houde Floor the other day, he said, "And I'm an Arab American." That right there told me, I cannot remember why he pulled that out of his hat, he is Lebanese Christian or Armenian Catholic{not an Arab]or he never would have pulled the rabbit out of the hat...
A challenge to Common Dreamers. First, our enemies use torture, and did so even before 2002. That's a fact. Another point, our enemies in Vietnam and Korea used torture also. So here is the question...why? Why was/is torture always used by our enemies? If torture is so well known to be counter productive, why then do others use it? And I'm going to hit you with something even harder. The interrogation techniques we are using now are the EXACT SAME TECHNIQUES used by the Koreans and Vietnamese communists! Or did you know that? During Vietnam, left wingers like Jane Fonda argued that the tactics used by the Vietcong were not torture. Now the left is saying those very same methods are torture. Why do you progressives how to say to this?
"...but also because they know that torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize."
And therein may be another major truth - after all, ya can't have a "generational war on terror" without a steady stream of "freedom haters," right?
Rush "drug addict" Limbaugh to his 14+ million followers this week: "And these people who are writing all this outraged, righteous indignation over torture haven't the slightest idea what is at stake on the battlefield with this particular enemy, and we never, we never hear about the torture they inflict."
And that makes it okay, see? Since "they" torture, we can, too! That's what makes America "the greatest nation to have ever existed on Earth," as McCain loves to repeat daily...
Of course, OxycontinRush didn't explain where his vast awareness of "the battlefield" came from, nor how he knows about the "torture they inflict" that we never hear about.
Rule of Law, Common Decency, U.S. Constitution, Respect for U.S. Congress, International Respect for U.S.A., Etc.Etc.,....................................................................................RIP
When these criminals finally get their day in court, there will be (or already have been) another revolution in this poor country.
Reciprocity holds.
Heckovajob, now every American citizen
is subject to tit-for-tat, drop by drop.