I wonder how many rapes and murders Blackwater criminals have committed.

Bush and Cheney's only concern is that the suffering of these parents is not a cost that shows up on the books of Blackwater, Halliburton, and other war profiteers.

jj

Yeah. Were are all those people who support the troops when this kinda stuff happens. Support the Troops my ass.

those that show no mercy should not be surprised when the favor is returned. we could all use a stronger dose of this quality, and i know it will not start with our "leaders." it is up to each of us to begin, where we are, at this very moment, to become more aware of and demonstrate our deeper strength. the conditions of the world are our tests. when we fail them, we are "sent back" as in school, until a particular lesson is learned. as individuals and as a society we have a long way to go. pray that we can learn before we bring about the end of the world.

Anybody with a heart condition who drinks like Cheney does had to have made some kind of deal with the devil. He can serve Satan as long as he is alive; once in hell he will be capable of no new evil.

Future.me - Where were all those people who support the troops when this kinda stuff happens?

Spewing the crap that these were traitors, and they got what they deserved - no doubt even including PFC Lavena Johnson in the judgement in order to defend the military.

Yep, they learned from the 60's & 70's how to get back from Canada those who desert from their military for whatever personal reasons.

A person at another site a couple years ago asked, Why, weren't they allowed to show returning dead bodies from the war? I said because they learned their lesson from Vietnam, & wrote the law so the bodies of dead soldiers could no longer be shown by tv, and perhaps pictures for newspapers & magazines.

I tell other people of Native Heritage not to join the military, but that is all up to their own free will decisions. You sign the papers you take your chances.

Nietzsche - it's time like these when I wish I didn't believe that Hell is on earth, and that we're living it.

The thought of Cheney and the rest of those responsible for this particularly hellish nightmare spending eternity in one made to order for each of them is so pleasant to contemplate.

Whenever I see a car with a bush/cheney bumper sticker, I look at the driver and loudly think "FASCIST". And, sadly, and I can't help it, when I see the US flag flying from an SUV or car or always in front of a house, I loudly think "FASCIST" again. I think our flag is ruined and won't recover from this. When we rebuild anew one day, I'm almost certain a new flag will come.

There's an interesting HBO series about soldiers in Iraq.

Hey Ann--I saw you sitting behind Addington and Yoo during the hearings and lady, I don't know how you restrained yourself from getting up and slapping those jerks silly. Must have been the discipline of your military training.

Thanks for your service to our country then and now. Then by resigning before the wars in the mid-east began as a sign of rejection oif the policy from the git-go, (if a thousand or so other diplomats had done the same thing who knows what might have been?).

Now by continuing to keep us informed on the terrible costs this war is inflicting on everyone and the folly of this totally insane government doing these terrible things in our collective names.

This boils down to responsible parenting.
As a parent, it is utter nonsense that I am not responsible for my childs actions and influential to the decisions they make in their lives.
Parenting is a very serious responsibility and that obligation doesn't end when the child turns 18. A responsible parent doesn't recommend or allow their child to join a military service or military oriented organization like Blackwater.
Any military enlistment should be made by the child in direct violation of upbringing, counsel, and parental influence. A parent that recommends military service to their child is irresponsible and should refrain from future breeding.
So although it's hard for the families to deal with the lies regarding their son's or daughter's demise in a war zone, it should come as no surprise. Slap 'em on the back and ship 'em off to war. They'll come back in a box and you'll get a nice settlement. That's responsible parenting!

Truthseeker58,

you might find the following link of interest:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/uscivilflag.html

I have never seen such a flag depicted anywhere else and wonder if anyone can verify what the site says.

It's probably that much more agonizing for the parents who understand that The USA is neither officially nor Constitutionally in a state of war with any nation on Earth.

AW's message would be much more powerful if she refused the Rove-frame propaganda and called it as it is:

"The costs of the ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS in Iraq and Afghanistan continue to mount. The lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans and millions of Iraqis and Afghans have been permanently damaged by these ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS. Support the families, but end the ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS."

the lorax, teaching your children not to join the imperialist war machine should start long before they're 18. I taught my kids to be anti-military. Where did I get it? From my Dad, who came out of WW2 a war hater

We went to a couple of Blue Angel displays, just cause they were cool, and I asked my Dad to go the next time. He refused, saying that the Blue Angels job was to terrorize people and kill people and they wasted a lot of fuel to boot. That's the last time I went to a Blue Angel display!

The people who breed conscripts also start early. You can see them at parades down here in the rural area. Little boys, dressed in camouflage, waving their plastic American flags and hitting each other with sticks, while their parents laugh indulgently. "Boys will be boys".

Truthseeker58, I found myself way way over the top the other day, chased a woman, had a BUSHI, BUSHII '00, '04, and a GD REAGAN BUMPERSTICKER, all over everywhere. Grocery store parking lot I'm chasing this woman with a bottle[plastic]screaming she took my Constitution away, She advocates Murder and torture, I hate yOU YOUY...then I saw what I appeared to look like, not that it varies that much at my age daily.
Yeah, Ann, I saw you at the hearings as well. I know how you restrain yourself, military after 29 years, AIN'T GOIN' NOWHERE! I've yet to hear you say 'No ' to a request, you may be near me in Philly and talking until 1 AM, get a call from Boise and off you go. I think people are surprised at your diminutive stature, your soft spoken voice and that grand smile. Don't give a damn what others say you've never brought harm to any of us and I find you quite engaging.

Ann Wright,

I would be less concerned about the well being of our soldiers who are fighting two illegal wars, and much more concerned about their victims.

"The costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan continue to mount. The lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans and millions of Iraqis and Afghans have been permanently damaged by these wars. Support the families, but end the war."

May this wish/prayer be granted so fast it seems like a reincarnation of the Concorde.

its time to bring them all home and put them thru intensive reverse cult brain washing program .. for who knows.. some day they may be asked to turn these practices that they've been trained… on us...

it is a soldiers duty to deny or turn down an order that is morally reprehensible...

think other then the handful of ppl that have deserted have practiced this?

they have brainwashed them to WANT to go back after their tour is over... when asked why... not because they believe in what they are doing... but because they want to be their for their fellow friends and soldiers... to help keep them safe... and they buy this...and we buy this... and yet when its time to honor them... when they come home less then alive from this travesty of "justice" we deny the right to every american citizen to see the TRUE cost of this war... not in dollars and cents... but the end of another young man or woman...

and when they attack iran... and then realize they cant leave iraq but need to get back into afghanistan... and you all wonder if they will institute the draft... ask yourself ... not if... but when.. because its coming... they just don't have enough ppl willing to go into the armed services anymore…

just as a side note... now that women are allowed in the military... think that the draft will be men only?

or will sick womens groups fight for the right for women to be drafted as well?

equality for all right?

protest our corrupt... evil and criminal govt... stay home on 9 11!

Our all-volunteer paid army has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's.

A stressful way to make a living.

Ever SINGLE one of those Dead Iraqi's HAD mothers also.
Or daughters or fathers or bothers or sometimes all.

How many Iraqi Mothers have had US soldiers murder their babies? 300,000? more, less, I'm unsure....
As the parent of a dead son, I can't help but think of them as real people. Even though their skin is not white and they did not speak English.

to those who righteouly blamed parents for children going into the army:
i have noticed that those persons who have a low income are targeted by the military ...lots of mail sent to the hs students advertising how wonderful it would be to realize their dreams of college education, employment etc.....yes, some of these parents do warn against joining...however, a lot of youngsters join out of the impulse to get a job ...earn money to support their mothers and siblings...and some see it as a way out of the ghettos....

i would say, blame our educational system that makes children into consumer robots....blame the counties and school districts that make mothers shake in fear of having their children taken away if they don't attend these schools....
blame ourselves for letting this government take over when the election was clearly a coup....
blame ourselves for not supporting single parnets
blame ourselves for driving
our personal WMD and buying the ideas that we need oil to live our cushy lives....ad infinitum....

9/11=False flag terror. We need our troops to protect us from the enemy within...

This woman worked for 29 years for the army and the state department and now she wants to be a voice of conscience. While I do not doubt her sincerity, I doubt that there is anything that she could do at this late date to make up for her past actions.

There's an interesting HBO series about soldiers in Iraq.I like this article.
____________________________________
peter
Addiction Recovery New Hampshire

twistoflex July 19th, 2008 1:37 am - "I doubt that there is anything that she could do at this late date to make up for her past actions."

Twistoflex, you really should do more research before making a comment like that. Col. Ann Wright is not a newcomer to the anti-war effort, as she resigned her commission when Bush began his illegal, immoral war-of-choice and occupation of Iraq. She has been fighting with the good guys ever since to put an end to the madness.

Enlightenment and understanding comes to different people, in different walks of life, at different times and in different ways. The important thing is that it does come, and when it comes, that you take whatever action you can to enlighten others. Ann has done that in spades. Enlightenment also carries with it, the responsibility to try and understand another's lack of it.

The misinformation and propaganda put out by the MIMIC (Military-Industrial-Media-Infotainment-Complex) is hard to resist, overcome and fight back against, especially if you happen to wake up deep in the belly of the beast. A great many of the people in the country still believe it.

Big Deal.

Spare a thought for the hundreds of thousands of parents of Iraqis and Afghans who have been killed as result of the so called US War on Terror.

HOW YOU SOW... SO YOU REAP

I am so sick and tired of hearing references to the "War in Iraq," especially here on Common Dreams, where you'd think folks would know better, that I can hardly bear to read Common Dreams any more. Please, please, please use the correct terms when referring to the travesty unfolding in Iraq. It is nothing less than THE UNLAWFUL, PREMEDIATED INVASION OF A SOVERIGN COUNTRY BY THE UNITED STATES, CAUSING THE NEEDLESS DEATH OF MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF ACQUIRING THAT NATION'S OIL SUPPLY!!!!! It's time we call a spade a spade and stop using the double-speak of the rogue Bush administration.

Who says there are no political prisoners in the land of the 'free' and the 'brave'.

Obama, the "antiwar" candidate:
We need more troops, more helicopters, more satellites, more Predator drones in the Afghan border region. And we must make it clear that if Pakistan cannot or will not act, we will take out high-level terrorist targets like bin Laden if we have them in our sights."

He wants 90,000 more troops for what? Peace? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Vote 2nd party or drink more Kool-aid.

lisa3210peace July 18th, 2008 11:09 pm

I have no idea who told you US soldiers go around murdering babies, but its a bald faced lie. Whoever it was has their own agenda.

I trust the skin color and English speaking remark were satirical......

MikeBinSC July 19th, 2008 4:00 am

Theres quite a lot of propagada put out by both sides, you are right about the Complex's skill, but what about counter propaganda thats just as hard to stop? I'd like to know what people would think if everyone was sucessful at anti-military propaganda? I believe we need balance in our thinking. As you point out, Ann Wright is demonized simply because she served.

lisa3210peace July 18th, 2008 11:09 pm

I don't know who told you US soldiers murder babies, but they are bald faced liars.

greenerthanthou July 18th, 2008 4:35 pm

What would be the result if you were sucessful and convinced everyone to be anti-military? Convinced every young man not to join? Your Dad obviously saw combat and I understand his feelings, but did you ever ask him if we should unilateraly abolish our military?

Sorry to double post, I thought the original posting was lost.

Thomas More July 19th, 2008 11:00 am
I don't know who told you US soldiers murder babies, but they are bald faced liars.

-Although, as a former Marine Sgt. myself, I'm sure it's not the norm, but I am also certain the military contains a certain number of sickos that have or are capable of murdering innocent men, women and children and even babies in cold blood and indeed there are documented cases of this happening. Check out the Haditha massacre. US soldiers have been charged with murdering entire families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident where 24 Iraqi men, women and children were killed on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraq province of Al Anbar. At least 15 of those killed were noncombatant civilians and all were killed by a group of United States Marines[1]. It has been alleged that the killings were retribution for the attack on a convoy of United States Marines with an improvised explosive device that killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas.[2]

With all due respect, Sir Thomas More, how would you know what is, has or will happen in a war zone?
A car races towards you, you "light it up", next thing you know it turns out to be a family heading to a picnic. Some killings are intentional and some are not but sick shit does happen.

Thomas Moore,

Regarding your comments to lisa3210peace and greenerthanthou, I beg to differ with you. I don't know how much information you have read, saw on video, or heard on radio or television, but our "troops" have committed atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan and some have had the courage to testify during the recent 'Winter Soldiers' gathering in March of this year. The US military is supposed to protect American soil and our citizens, not venture to the four corners of the earth killing, maiming, torturing, raping, pillaging and plundering weaker peoples on this planet. It's called "imperialism" and there is no such thing as a war on terror, Mr. Moore. That term is false. The war is against the American people not willing to give the "Sig Heil" (not sure of the spelling) salute to the criminals running this country into the ground with the intent of enslaving the majority and returning to the days of feudalism. And pedaling the same thing abroad.

I second what these two women said.

The US has and is blatantly guilty of 'international gansterism.' Military spending of this magnitude must be self-perpetuating. Why? Conflicts must created and fueled to keep the machinery going.

This is how it goes: the US implants a dictator who serves it's interests for awhile (i.e., serves as a proxy for attacking someone else, as Saddam did with Iran). In the interim, America ignores the atrocities committed by said dictator until he no longer serves their interests. All the while, the US is providing him with weapons, meaning more $$$ for military corporations. Then he becomes an enemy who the US must attack--with what?--you guessed it, more military hardware! The whole military-industrial-complex has become a vortex with a life of its own and, as long as there is a war to fight or in the making, can never lose!

Moreover, there is MSM to glorify the military and the excitement of manning the latest and greatest military hardware. Video games are invented that provide the 'thrill' of battle simulation. And parents, poor sleeping parents, buy magnetic 'support the troops' stickers and attach them to their SUVs. Kids get this message: my parents will be proud of me if I join the military. Oh, and the movies show beautiful women swooning over men in uniform.

Now on to the reality of war. I do not know how old Thomas Moore is, but if we remember the Vietnam war, women and children were slaughtered as a matter of course, directly, face to face. There was a famous trial which took place when someone got caught. The problem is, dear Thomas, is that the 'enemy' becomes dehumanized, so he or she is not like my daughter of son. Deep down, though, many soldiers know this is wrong, and never get over it upon returning from a war zone, but that is another matter. Then there's the so-called collateral damage, which includes the blown off legs of little children who had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time when the bombs fell.

So let's not pull any punches and call war what it really is: state sponsored gansterism (terrorism works just as well.) We have been shielded here from the full horror of war, and I daresay, unless we've actually been in a war zone or fought in one, haven't a clue to what it's really all about.

Finally, even if we support a war in ignorance, we are still responsible for the results we beget, including our children dying on the battlefield.

To Thomas Moore:

What would be the result if someone were successful in convincing everyone to be anti-military? In the immortal words of Captain Yossarian, "Then I'd be a fool to think any different." And, there would be no more war which is the greatest crime of all.

To those looking to ascribe blame for children going into our now thoroughly corrupt, incompetent and neo-con poisoned military and mercenary cadres:

Blame the upper-class class warfare experts (plutocrats and their think-tanks, well-planted media shills, lobbyist pimps and whore politicians) who have designed and implemented a society that exports middle-class jobs instead of giving children of poorer families an economic alternative to military jobs in the permanent Warfare State now rendering the Welfare State unaffordable.

The economic conditions herding so many young Americans into the military were created, people, they didn't just happen by themselves. 99.99% of Americans didn't even read the "free trade" treaties after the multinational corporations wrote them--not even the whore legislators that voted for them.

Ralph Nader challenged every member of the House Committee voting on it to read the 800 page final summary for NAFTA and ONLY ONE ignoramus Republican (a slightly braver blow-hard than the rest) took him up on it. After the guy had actually read the damn thing he said in good faith he couldn't vote for it. STOP BEING A NATION OF SUCH SUCKERS, RUBES, HICKS, GHETTO CULTURE NAVEL GAZERS AND LAZY MINDED CORPORATE TOOLS: SHEEP TO BE SO EASILY SHORN!

Remember neo-conservative Republican economic guru Grover Norquist was the one who preached, "Starve the Welfare Beast!" One quick as hell way to do that is to (1) enact tax cuts for the super rich and, (2) more "free trade" treaties to rapidly export middle-class factory jobs and their tax revenue and, (3) allow in millions upon millions of illegal aliens in short period of 10 to 15 years (while superficially cracking on a few hundred here or there for domestic political "news" consumption--never punishing rich employers who hire them in any numbers) to drive up job competition for remaining jobs and drive down wages--ALL while trying to pay for MULTIPLE OPEN-ENDED "TERROR" WARS. It's Welfare State to permanent Warfare State, folks. Only guess who pays in their children's blood and treasure to bankroll it and guess who reaps the plunder in tax-payer subsidized family & crony contracts and oil (CORPORATE WELFARE). Socialism for the poor? BAAAAD! Socialism for the rich? GOOOOD! If you can't figure that out by now you are too stupid to vote, let alone reproduce.

Republican and DLC corporate Dimocrat interests are colluding to liquidate (at fire sale prices and revenue giveaways) any economic ability to continue to pay for programs of social uplift--including those that might spur the creation of middle-class jobs. Conservative super wealthy capitalists have ALWAYS despised the middle-class because, if it grows to a certain size, the middle-class starts actually wanting to participate in REAL self-government that annoyingly interferes with the cushy financially, legally and morally insulated wealth & POWER over-concentrated at the very top of the class ladder.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE FOLGERS, AMURKA!

In AMURKA profit is privatized. Any major losses to the plutocracy: bank failures, Bear Stearns, subprime mortgage hedge funds etc. are fully socialized, with the taxpayers doing the bailing.

Socialism for the people- NO!
Socialism for Big Business Losses- YES!

Truth of the matter is---fighting and dieing for another country is a waste of one's life, time, energy, and even the thought of doing such a thing should be ridiculous and be so ingrained in a person that it be as known as ONLY the "TRUTH" .

It is very easy to fool an uninformed public, or one that is willing to be fooled, through their own lack of intelligent disbelief. The truth can only live next to information, and information is derived from many sources, never to be taken on "faith alone"
These current wars are basically huge feeding troughs for no more than 5 large corporations, one of the them the former employer of the VP. The only reason this could have taken place is that the majority of the voters are "conservative" --defined as one who believes that maintaining the status quo is essential to success. However that definition has proved "conservatism" to be a faulty doctrine---since maintaining the status quo prohibits the practitioner from learning from them mistakes of the past----and dooms them to repetition of those mistakes, even in defiance of the TRUTH. Which is exactly what the US is experiencing once again with these two wars, after so many other experiences in the past which have proved to be mistakes.
With a war however, the establishment still needs "bodies"---live bodies, that can be sent off and converted to "dead bodies". The "higher income members" (a 21st century euphemism for lower class) do not send their sons and daughters off to die for the USA mainly because they are better informed and NOT conservative --information and conservatism cannot coexist----don't confuse "education" with "being informed"--GW Bush has degrees from Harvard and Yale, and STILL cannot speak English well enough to converse effectively with anyone but another member of the "uniformed" or conservative.
To the "uninformed" "conservative mind" the thought of the USA being the "great liberator", the "nation that brings freedom to the oppressed"----is perfectly logical, and " part of Gods great plan for America"..
and they will over look any information that contradicts their beliefs. They are SLAVES to a faulty doctrine, doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past, because they do not know the TRUTH.

INFORMATION, "the TRUTH" should begin at home. If you tell a small child NO--usually the first word children learn in any language---the older they get the more you are required to elaborate as to WHY "No". When young people see movies or literature even comic books, concerning war they are almost always "pro"--using slogans like "America will bring Freedom to an oppressed people", etc. The glory of war is promoted before the gore of war. So switch that around here and now with this generation while they are still very young. Don't buy toys that they play "soldier or army" with. When they bring up the subject ridicule the subject---make is not only ugly but stupid and "uncool".
Then take your children to the VA facilities in your community, and let them see what they could "have to look forward to".
If every parent talked their children "out " of joining the military to go and fight for another country, then all of the big money who need war to make more big money---would need to pay for "mercenary forces" and that cost would be "cost" prohibitive. Why would they pay more when they have had parents helping them prepare their children for the "next great war"-----after all, those are all working class kids and they come cheap to those who have the money. Soon enough there would be history classes at the 3rd grade where the concept of an American fighting and dieing in another country, would be as ridiculous and "uncool" as eating dirt. They should know that if you do not know the TRUTH, you will be a slave.

I always try to throw something to the "conservative thinkers"---if any of them are reading this.---- Keep up the good work, next to birth control and abortion your current programs are doing a fairly good job at population control, and it helps to even out the playing field for future resources--the fewer you need to feed, the lower the feed bill.
A friend of mine recently complained to me that the local high school was required to allow recruiters to speak to the senior class members just before graduation. She objected, and rightfully so, but when I informed her that the school was required by Federal Law to allow this, (if they receive any Federal money) she was amazed. I then suggested that she and the other parents speak to the school board and ask that the seniors who were required to go to the auditorium and listen to the recruiters--be loaded up on buses and taken to the closest VA Medical Center. A good idea, but one quickly quashed by the school board for many reasons---none of which were intelligent but they used them anyway.
The parents were required to load the seniors up into various private vehicle and make a trip to the VA Med Ctr---- but were stopped at the door and not allowed to enter as a group............I wonder why? Is it because they are slaves and do not know the TRUTH?
John, 8:32 KJR
"KNOW the truth and the truth shall MAKE you free"

Neither the children of privilege nor their privileged parents will ever know the costs of war. Only the profits and the pleasure they must derive from the murders attached to their profits.

I share a poem I wrote in 2003, on my recollection of returning "Home" from Vietnam on January 1, 1969.

Coming Home
"st john"
April 14, 2003

Straight from the Killing Fields of Vietnam, December 31, 1968,
I arrive in an alien world in a New Year, January 1, 1969.
The streets of San Francisco are deserted,
There is a feeling of barrenness, abandonment
For there is no one to greet me
No one to assure me that I am really home.

Twenty-four hours ago I was an armed soldier,
Expected to kill without question, or be killed.
Today, I must practice reason and judgment,
Control my emotions and walk in peace.
Yet, I have not been prepared for this transition.
Armed only with Discharge Papers, I am free.

But what is this Freedom?
Haunted by the shadows of lives I have taken,
I must look into the eyes of those who know nothing
Of my pain, my fear, my remorse.
Yes, I killed and never saw the faces of those whose lives I took.
Transmitting orders to pilots and artillery batteries was easy.

But those lives are my life,
They are my responsibility forever,
And I don't know what to do about it.
There is no relief from this knowledge
Save perhaps in my own forgiveness
And can I really forgive myself?

The questions haunt me,
I think of the young men and women
Engaged in the current conflict
And wonder how they will handle this.
The horror of what they have been asked to do
Lives in my heart, for I know what awaits them.

Perhaps it will be years before it emerges,
Perhaps days or weeks or months,
But it will come out and it will be explosive.
The people around them will not understand.
How could they? They weren't there.
But those of us who know will understand, and we will weep.

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation

peace,
st john

For any parents who have been forced to loose a child in any manner but especially in a war of aggression, is a tragedy of unspeakable difficulty. We teach our children to stay away from dangerous situations, warning them of the consequences of being careless, driving too fast, or the list could go on and on. To teach our children to avoid the hazards of being in a war of aggression in another country, for reasons that never survive close scrutiny is also our duty as parents.
If let's say someone such as myself, a Veteran of the Vietnam era, who "volunteered" . If I were to tell a young person, someone else's child, that they would be breaking the law by participating in an illegal war of aggression, and name that war,
I could be charged under the Sedition Act, and jailed. Or to tell a young person who is already a member of the US Military that they are not required to obey an illegal order; and yes it is a decision that should be made out of a higher conscientiousness. The same charge could be levied, violation of the Sedition Act.
If a parent were to use the very same words with one of their own children, they could not be charged, for sny crime. The law recognizes the duty and privilege of a parent, eve when the same words would land another in jail.
Native Son is correct.
If we all as parents make the effort to teach our children that wars of aggression are illegal, in any form, by international standards, international law, and international treaties that the United States has signed and ratified.
That the Uniform Code of Military Justice, another branch of Codified Law governing our military personnel also states that it is the duty of every member of the US Military to disregard and not comply with illegal orders. That there is nothing written anywhere in our Constitution, Codes, or Laws nor anything but "custom" which even implies that participating in an illegal war of aggression is acceptable.
If enough people begin defying the "Custom" teaching their children or allowing them to be taught that sending our Military Personnel to fight and die for other Countries, or Nation (s), or People, is acceptable behavior.
For anyone who loves freedom and liberty and life cannot possibly believe that shedding your own blood for someone else's Freedom is not contrary to intelligent behavior, and is deemed illegal in civilized society.
However long it takes, however how many generations are required to make this transition; the journey must begin somewhere and sometime why not now?

Thank You

tailcap July 19th, 2008 11:21 am

Sir Thomas More...Thanks for the promotion!

I totally agree with you. If you served there you know as well as I do what can and does happen. And that part is no different no matter the war. We both know there are the sickos you mention. But we weeded ours out as soon as we could.

"How many Iraqi Mothers have had US soldiers murder their babies? 300,000? more, less, I'm unsure…."

This is what I was replying to. And I see I should have put the # in there too.

What I said was US soldiers are not murdering millions of babies nor would they, nor would they murder one no matter who gives the order. We both know what we'd do if some officer had given the order to kill children...he would be regrettably MIA. Not then, not now, not ever.

The Haditha killings turned out to be not quite as reported so far, but I don't know the truth of it at all yet.

Let me see if I can clear this up, I am simply trying to say that suggesting that our Marines, soldiers murder anyone, babies or otherwise as a matter of course or policy. is a bald faced lie.

Anyone that has served in combat I believe is more than qualified to speak to what happens there. Two tours qualifies me as far as I'm concerned.

I never for a minute would suggest that terrible things don't happen, that we don't have some real sickos running around as you point out. That civilians are not killed.....but as you say, the boy that lit up that car, is he a murderer? I don't think so. Its not his fault.

I don't seem to be able to make myself clear, maybe you could help me, you were there too apparently, do you know what I mean?

peaceman July 19th, 2008 11:45 am

I appreciate your civil response and suggestions. Differ with me anytime you like sir.

I'm not trying to defend things that happen, what I said was we aren't killing 3 million babies or any as a matter of course or policy. Simple as that. And I would tell you that I doubt its any different now than its been before, not as many as you'd think, but of course there are some.

As to Greenerthanthou I simply asked and ask the same of you, what happens if she could turn everyone anti-military? What do you do then? I think thats a fair question muself. What exactly would you do without our military?

chessgames56 July 19th, 2008 11:52 am

Old enough to remember it well my friend. I assume you refer to the Mai Lai killings? It happened and some otheres too I know. But not many. NVA and Charles killed more than you'd believe.

" women and children were slaughtered as a matter of course, directly, face to face."

Thats flat Horseshit.(excuse me ladies, but sometimes stronger language is required) Not true in 66-67 or 68-69 for sure, Whoever told you that is a liar.

I don't know where I go wrong trying to explain things, but let me try this.....I can't think there is anything worse than war, its the most terrible thing there is, at least to my knowledge. I'd rather shoot myself rather than send your children to it lightly. Its horrible.

But lies about how things really were or twisting the truth to make a political point is just not acceptable to me. There are some real fantasy's running around out there.

posted to me "there were no spitting on veterans episodes" he knew it was the truth because he read it. Now since I saw two seperate episodes of that I could assure him his information was a lie to my certain knowledge. He still prefers to believe what he read.

This is not to say that some of the things that you said weren't true. And you don't ever want to send your son to war.

Any Combat veteran can tell you there are two things you never forget and you live with the rest of your life.

st john July 19th, 2008 1:08 pm

I do understand, it breaks my heart. Seeing the faces is even worse. God bless you and grant you peace (and them.)

Pax

countcoup July 19th, 2008 4:28 pm

You tell those kids whatever you think they need to know and to Hades with anything else.

I simply am trying to point out that anti-military is not the same as pro peace and that avoiding the need for a military is not honest.

Please note that I speak specifically against wars of aggression, which are condemned by international law as well as intelligent thinking. A fine well trained and equipped military is essential to defend one's nation from those who have not yet learned the lesson that wars of aggression are wrong and there is nothing wrong with a stern reminder with a stern defense. But in reality, is that not exactly what the US Military is experiencing presently in both of these illegal wars of aggression?

countcoup July 19th, 2008 6:07 pm

Point made, wish you had shown up earlier. We agree totally.

Our people shouldn't be in either place. Especially Iraq. Which I would certainly call a war of agression since we weren't attacked.

Pax

Sir Thomas More
"Two tours qualifies me as far as I'm concerned.'
-that's two more than me, I was in during peace time 76-80 and was an avionics tech working on planes, never been in combat or Iraq-thank God

"I can't think there is anything worse than war, its the most terrible thing there is,..."
-amen brother

"This woman worked for 29 years for the army and the state department and now she wants to be a voice of conscience. While I do not doubt her sincerity, I doubt that there is anything that she could do at this late date to make up for her past action."

Whether or not you are a Christian shouldn't detract from the fact that 29-year persecutor of Christians , Saul , converted to a Christian advocate Was he successful? Just because Christianity is espoused by liars and hypocrites like Nixon,Bush,Hagee,Huckabee...does not nullify the truth and wise applicability of the Sermon on the Mount.

John Newton , probably the most famous slave-ship captain gave up his "profession" and spent the rest of his life encouraging William Wilberforce to persevere in his fifty- year fight against domestic slavery in England and the British involvement in the international slave-trade. Was John Newton and William Wiberforce successful? Do we have in-your-face slavery in any western countries today ?

Mohandas Gandhi spent many years in an elevated caste in
India and South Africa referring to the "untouchables" as sub-human and not worthy of freedom . He changed his attitude and took the Raj of 700 million fellow-Indians away from the British "landlords" albeit with blood-shed of massecre-minded Hindus and Muslims,( much like Sunnis and Shiites today)

Admitting your wrongs and advocating for the better like Ann Wright has done , is only repugnant to someone who has always been and will always be perfect.

Thomas More,

I believe we had the same kind of discussion several weeks ago, and must have apologized to each other a half-dozen times. But I'll reply, once again.

It is a nation's right to defend itself from a foreign invader. Call it self-defense. But when a nation invades another country, it is an act of aggression and the invader is the bad guy.

The United States is the world's big bully and most dangerous country on Earth and will eventually be cut down to size.

How many will die and suffer in the meantime? For What?

Thomas More, if I could turn everybody anti-military, there wouldn't be any more wars.
If I could just turn Americans anti-military, there would be no more wars of aggression by the US.
Perhaps you believe that there are people out there just waiting for the US to disarm so that they can attack us. I don't believe that, but if that happened, we could defend ourselves. The US mobilized in WW2 very quickly.
The US is the biggest threat to world peace. It has a bigger military budget than the rest of the world combined. It sells WMD all over the world. It invades other countries at will. It has incredibly horrible weapons.
What kind of country bases its economy on vicious ways to kill other people? Ours.
We have millions of people employed by the military-industrial complex, making WMD. We have hundreds of thousands of soldiers all over the world.
We invented napalm, the atomic bomb, white phosphorus and many other appalling weapons.
We are the only ones to have used the atomic bomb. And we used it on civilians.
Maybe you didn't know anyone who killed babies, but I did. This was the reason,"Those babies had grenades hidden in their diapers".
And my coworker told me the same thing about Iraqi children- they were a threat and needed to be killed.
Another coworker told me that Iraqi children were future terrorists and needed to be killed.
I'm not impressed with American soldiers - except the ones in IVAW. Just like I only like Vietnam veterans who came back anti-war. And you must know that there were a lot of them - maybe a majority. I think that's why they ended the draft.
Here is a link to a Marine general who turned against the military. Major Smedley Butler. He was lauded enough that right wing capitalists in the 30s tried to get him to lead a military coup. But he was patriotic enough to refuse and expose it.
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

greenerthanthou,

Well said. Well said!