"I do disagree with you about the soldiers. If your job is killing people, it isn't a job to be respected. I totally support those who resist, or refuse, and those who do the job and then repent. But, I don't think that the US is a force for Good, as you do, and even if it was, killing people to "do good" is an oxymoron."

Probably too late for you to see this, but a soldiers job is not to kill, but to keep the peace.

My respects to your Dad.

Thank you, Thomas More. I should have known anyway about my Dad. My Mom says he's been having nightmares about the war lately. I guess he saw bad stuff.

I think that most people are basically decent. It's amazing that so many people in the US still believe in peace at all, with so much hatetful propaganda directed at us.

I do disagree with you about the soldiers. If your job is killing people, it isn't a job to be respected. I totally support those who resist, or refuse, and those who do the job and then repent. But, I don't think that the US is a force for Good, as you do, and even if it was, killing people to "do good" is an oxymoron.

I think the US is an evil empire, willing to kill and destroy for rich man's profit. So I don't think that poor people should participate, even for college money.

greenerthanthou July 21st, 2008 2:15 am
That's how I am. I don't start fights, but bygod, someone else starts one, and it's on!

Frankly thats what I thought about your co-workers.

I didn't mean to freak you about your Dad, but there are taletell's of men who have been there and he had them. My apologies if I caused you distress.

"That's how I am. I don't start fights, but bygod, someone else starts one, and it's on!"

You get em' girl!

I find absolutely nothing wrong with your view of recruiters or your right to say anything you like to them. Kick his butt. My own personal opinion is they shouldn't be out in business's or High schools anyway.

"PS. I worked with 2 guys for over 8 years before I found out they were Vietnam vets. They just never mentioned it."

My guess would be that they both saw combat. Combat vets don't want to remember, they don't want to talk about it. The "Vets" you see telling the tall stories or talking about killing usually never served at all, never left the States or never came within 100 miles of combat.

I can rtell you that you, peaceman and others here know more, much more and thats not a lot itself than my wife or family know about my time in Vietnam. They know very little.

The only reason I keep doggedly defending our serving troops is they are doing their job and they shouldn't be blamed for decisions made by a bunch of cowardly draft dodgers that sent them there. I'll not have them treated like we were. Not fair.

I'm glad there are people like you, chessgame, peaceman,tailcap and others around. Maybe you guys will teach Farmboy the sancity of human life and the fallacy of linear thinking. Both sides of any disagreement have some truth on their side.

Thanks for sharing

P.S. chessgames56 I truly don't believe there are as many that no longer see each other as human beings. I believe the ideologies get in the way, but I believe people are better than most think.
You can even admire your enemies.

Pax

Reading your post, green, makes one wonder why so many have seemingly lost their souls; we no longer see each other as human beings, but vessels of opposing ideology. Farm boy should know that every time you slaughter a 'terrorist,' you breed ten more. That is why Israel will never know peace as long as it persists with its current tactics of slaughter and oppression.

Thomas More, I don't know that my coworkers were in Iraq. I tend to think that people I like aren't crazed killers.
You said before that it was obvious that my dad saw combat, and I freaked! I never thought of it like that. Believe it or not, I had cognitive dissonance about that. I knew that the Japanese were shooting at my dad, but I never thought of my dad shooting at them. It just is inconceivable to me.

When it comes to my coworkers, the first one was a military recruiter. I don't think he was ever in Iraq. But he did say, one time, "I love killing babies. I love to throw them down and stomp on their heads until their brains squish out." Then I rolled my eyes and called him an asshole, and he said "I love you. Next time I go to Iraq I'm going to take you with me"
But I don't think he was ever in Iraq. His comment on the necessity of killing Iraqi children wasn't a personal thing, as I took it. We were arguing about a letter that someone else had written supporting the war, and he supported the war, and I said that 1/2 the people in Iraq were under the age of 15, so the US was killing children and that's when he said what he said.

I don't know that the other coworker was even in the military. He was arguing against abortion and I pointed out that he was concerned about potential children while real children were being killed in Iraq and he said that the ones in Iraq were future terrorists while the ones in America weren't.
He's a big ol' country boy, sweet and stupid, and I think highly of him. I don't want to start another argument with him because he's not the arguing type. He didn't say he was in the military, just that it was OK to kill non-American babies.
I've worked here for 15 years, and I have a truce with my co-workers. Remember when you were a child- "he started it!"
That's how I am. I don't start fights, but bygod, someone else starts one, and it's on!
If I have to listen to their right wing bullshit, they have to listen to my left-wing bullshit!
So, they mostly don't start around me.
One day, a few months ago, an Air Force recruiter came on day shift. Well, they thought that was funny, and razzed me about it, until he showed back up on my shift (swing). I didn't even know he came back until they had hustled him safely out the back door, warning him against me! They didn't want to see the fight, so they took him out of it.
That's why I won't confront them, just so you know.
PS. I worked with 2 guys for over 8 years before I found out they were Vietnam vets. They just never mentioned it.

metal - "All me and my buddies was fightin' for over there was to make sure that my little daughter don't never have to wear no damn burkha."

Well metal, you have to understand that the administration makes sure that the troops get to hear Rush Limpbow on AFRATS (Armed Forces Radio and Television Services), but no liberal/progressive voices.

peaceman July 20th, 2008 3:52 pm

First paragraph...complete agreement.
Till "war." and Militarism become a relic of past barbaric behavior, we will be required to maintain soldiers for our defense.

"I understand your position, but there comes a time when EACH INDIVIDUAL must come to an understanding of these things and not take part in them."

If my country were attacked, I'd show up. And so would you. We differ in that I believe that the blame for Iraq rests on GWB and his boys. The military just does their job and to blame them for it simply isn't fair.

The military isn't and cannot be a democracy, so most of the suggestions of desertion or refusing to go or any of that is senseless because if it was allowed you'd have no military left. Thats reality.

Chessman says "We live in a society that worships belief over reality." I'd say that to believe you can do without our military or that it could function within the parameters you and others set is belief not reality.

I don't doubt for a moment that metal met the Iraq veteran he described or that the guy said what he said. There are those folks. I doubt he was a combaty vet, but in any case there are the John Wayne types.

But if you read him, he still confuses soldiers with war. I'm just not smart enough to explain myself.

But be assured, when Georgie Porgie and his little band were clamoring to attack Iraq, I think Peaceman knows what I was telling all my reps, Congressman, papers and Senators.

I know its popular to say how little freedom we have, but I'd just say I have been to too many countries, seen too many governments that deny what we take for granted everyday. Maybe that another reason I feel strongly about this.

In any case my regards and respects to all of you, its you that will make changes not the rude callow folks that sometimes intrude. I wish you all well.

I'm reading all these posts. I see a lot of proper and necessary anxiety about teaching our children not to be dupes for a run amok military-industrial complex, and veteran vs. non-veteran wrangling about the most righteous justification for the natural and inevitable grief that decent human beings feel about "just" wars AND wars of aggression (no matter how macho, "manned-up" and merciless pro-war the ones who go to war are before they go). And that's all well and good.

But I don't think the ECONOMIC reasons behind the present state of affairs are well and fully grasped by the same people who need to include that ECONOMIC COMPONENT in the comments they make when they are teaching their kids not to be suckers for the military-industrial-prison-media-complex and its present assayers, the BIG neo-CON.

I suggest everyone read Martin Luther King Jr.'s speech entitled "Beyond Vietnam" he made at the Riverside Church on April 4, 1967. One link to a .pdf file of this speech is at:
http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/about_king/encyclopedia/vietnam.htm

Just scroll down in the text to "Beyond Vietnam" right-click and save the link as a .pdf file to your desktop to read.

MLK GOT the critical link between the ECONOMIC predators behind a self-incentivizing military-industrial complex and their political teat-clingers, and how these forces use (for them) profitable wars to divert vast sums of money that would be better spent improving ALL of our domestic society at EVERY class level--from education to middle-class job creation to health care to a sustainable energy policy not dependent on foreign oil or natural gas. It was perhaps the most important thing that he understood that was never adequately communicated in enough numbers to subsequent generations of Americans.

One last thing on this topic: One Iraq War vet of the current war I encountered was so deeply brainwashed by the military indoctrination he received in boot camp that he told me that, "All me and my buddies was fightin' for over there was to make sure that my little daughter don't never have to wear no damn burkha." Now, this statement of such complete ignorance--that he had never learned enough about the capabilities of the U.S. military so as to pronounce such gibberish--left me at a complete loss of words at the time.

Setting aside the logistics of a land invasion of N. America by enough well-armed Muslims to compel little American girls to wear burkhas, and the fact that terrorism is an idea--not a nation with whom you can negotiate peace treaties--were the U.S. to ever have PROOF of a State-sponsored nuclear or bio-chemical terrorist attack on the domestic United States (such as we were falsely threatened with BY OUR OWN LEADERS in the lead-up to the Iraq invasion), people seemed to have all forgotten about our Naval nuclear weapons delivery capability. There isn't one backwater failed State or dictatorship on this entire globe that ONE (1) U.S. Navy nuclear missile-equipped submarine couldn't irradiate for the next 2,500 years. The problem isn't the military victory, people, the problem is extracting the oil and other natural resources we want to prey upon without making them too radioactive to handle. Even some of the stupidest most blindly warmongering young dupes of neo-conservatism don't get that. Jesus, the stupidity of present generations of Americans even with all these degrading bloodbaths and ongoing war crimes stinking and screaming to high heaven for redress just astounds me.

Thomas More,

People the world over, regardless of race, creed, color, sexual orientation, educational level, economic status, and whatever else I left out have the same basic necessities for living on this planet.I don't care where you go, Thomas, but it is easier to make friends than to make enemies. Any sane person, male or female, would prefer a handshake, a hug, or a kiss rather than a punch in the nose or to be cursed at. There are exceptions to the rule, and on this point, quite minor. There's an old saying: "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." It was true in ancient times and it is true today.

Once people realize they have been duped by the power-elite whose main concern is raising chaos and dividing the working-class at home and abroad, "wars" or what I prefer to call "state-sanctioned murder" will cease and the true brotherhood of man (and this includes women, without saying) will unfold and "co-operation" rather than "confrontation" will manifest as a reality, and millions of lives, limbs, and broken souls will be free of the destructive activity of the term called "war." Militarism will be a relic of past barbaric behavior.

I understand your position, but there comes a time when EACH INDIVIDUAL must come to an understanding of these things and not take part in them.

Chessgames56 right above me makes a good case. I agree with he/she?

chessgames56 July 20th, 2008 12:16 pm

"This becomes silly semantics does it not?"

Sometimes thats exactly what it is.

This becomes silly semantics does it not? How can we 'support the troops' without supporting the war? And are the troops, which are the means to an 'evil' end, separate from that end? What if a soldier refuses to carry out an order or fight in a war on moral grounds? What happens to him or her?

We live in a society that worships belief over reality. So even if a soldier slaughters innocents out of some belief or ideal, does ignorance of his 'crime' absolve him or her from it?

And what 'freedoms' do you speak of when so many of us are wage slaves, overworked, and stressed out--gouged, sold out, and ripped off from every direction? No, our 'boys' and 'girls' fight for the 'freedoms' of a greedy and power hungry elite. But that is another matter.

Boy did we ever buy the 'support our troops' ruse hook, line, and sinker. I'm sure Darth Vader smiles every time he thinks about it.

greenerthanthou July 20th, 2008 1:28 am

I forgot to say......"Thomas More, if I could turn everybody anti-military, there wouldn't be any more wars."

If that could happen, you'd trip over me because I'd be right in front of you.

We can't mobuilize like WW2 because our industrial base is being stripped.

I really wanted to say...ask your source where he was, where he saw that and see how fast his answer comes out. Next ask him what two things he simply can't forget from Combat and then tell me. I'll know from that answer if he's ever even been close to a combat zone. Believe me.

tailcap
"never been in combat or Iraq-thank God"

I feel exactly the same way for you. May you or your children never be there.

Semper Fi

The United States is the world's big bully and most dangerous country on Earth and will eventually be cut down to size.

I truly believe its our leadership, not our country or our people.

greenerthanthou July 20th, 2008 1:28 am

I believe your co-worker is a liar. I don't believe he was ever near any fighting. For whatever reasson there are people like that.

I'm about as anti-war as you can get, more than you I'd bet, more than my friend peaceman. But yes, there are plenty of floks out there that would soon change your way of living for you without those poor slobs that stand between you and them. Your police right on up to the soldier.

My unfailing complaint is that I view these sugestions and goals unrealistic at this time or anywhere in the near future.

I would also say that you are utterly wrong about America being the biggest threat to World Peace. There are some really nasty types out there. Thats my opinion.
Any combat veteran understands, but I obviously do a bad job of conveying my meaning or thoughts to people that haven't been in a combat zone. But I'll keep trying.

Lastly I would point out to you that most of our soldiers are your neighbors, they are not some unknown fanged fanatic. Most are National Guard and Reserves.

Really lastly guys, I'm not speaking about Vietnam, Iraq or Afganistan....but I suggest you need to remember that the freedoms we enjoy were purchased at high cost and are maintained no matter who wants to disagree, by these maligned Marines and soldiers.

Those people that denigrate "support our troops" are simply an example of people that can't seperate the people that sent them there and the people that were sent.

dream warrior July 20th, 2008 5:31 am

I hate the idea of a draft, but I'm beginning to think we may need one for the reasons you state and other reasons. With no deferments or exemptions.

I'll not change my feelins about this and I doubt I'll change yours, but I respect what you say and agree with more than you think. But get the rocks ready, everytime someone tells you something I know to be untrue or I think dishonors the people that serve us I'll show up and speak my piece.

There is a poem above that says most of it.

Pax

wonder if the way to fix this military engagement at the drop of the hat is by having a mandatory military conscription.... imagine... no matter who they are .... or who's kids they were... they'd have to serve...

think that would have those in office think twice before committing us to war every time we turn around?

just a thought..

I wonder how many people with those asinine 'I support the troops' ribbons on their cars, trucks and SUVs have gone up to the parents of those who have died and said 'Gee, thanks to your kid dying, I feel like I have a right to complain about $4 a gallon gas.'

NativeSon July 19th, 2008 12:50 pm

i agree with just about everything you stated in this post... however we've excluded one very important group in this discussion...

we can try and counter the effects of military recruitment until we're blue in the face... and those that are conscientious enough to give their kids the flip side of the coin to joining the military are not going to have as many kids enlist...

mostly those that are targeted are from the areas a severe poverty... where they think that if they join they can have a future or to assist their families from financial hardships... but then you have those extreme ppl that believe they are true patriots because they believe EVERYTHING their govt espouses and not only do they believe we are just in all of our military actions but encourage their kids to join!

and then sit back and though worried for the well being of their children are proud of the fact that they have a child in the military as if it were some twisted badge of honor...

those that cry that we should continue on in iraq and afghanistan and that we're entirely justified in being there and we should stay until the "job is done"

and i'm not quite sure how this subversion of the conscious happens or how long its been going on... but these are the folks that are the worst... these are the folks that are shown in the MSM and are shown to be proud "god loving" americans .... these are the folks that we need to get to understand the absolute perversion of whats happening during times of war...

and after these folks are exposed to some real truth and deprogrammed from the media sponsored propaganda... there are those "armchair" warriors that need a talking to as well... those fine men and women that salute the grandeur of the right of the american military and govt to do all that the can and be all that they can where ever they so chose to be... but yet are too old to enlist or be qualified if a draft where ever to come about...

those folks that say that we're right were we need to be... and it doesnt matter that they cant serve or dont have children to see off to war... those are the worst of the worst... these are the folks that need to be weaned off the kool aid... and in a hurry!

for the rest of us know that war is never the answer... i'm not saying that we should do away with our military... for as long as there are ppl in this world and leaders that still think that might breeds right... there will always be a need for DEFENSE!!!

is there an excuse for an offense military!!! never never never!

greenerthanthou,

Well said. Well said!

Thomas More, if I could turn everybody anti-military, there wouldn't be any more wars.
If I could just turn Americans anti-military, there would be no more wars of aggression by the US.
Perhaps you believe that there are people out there just waiting for the US to disarm so that they can attack us. I don't believe that, but if that happened, we could defend ourselves. The US mobilized in WW2 very quickly.
The US is the biggest threat to world peace. It has a bigger military budget than the rest of the world combined. It sells WMD all over the world. It invades other countries at will. It has incredibly horrible weapons.
What kind of country bases its economy on vicious ways to kill other people? Ours.
We have millions of people employed by the military-industrial complex, making WMD. We have hundreds of thousands of soldiers all over the world.
We invented napalm, the atomic bomb, white phosphorus and many other appalling weapons.
We are the only ones to have used the atomic bomb. And we used it on civilians.
Maybe you didn't know anyone who killed babies, but I did. This was the reason,"Those babies had grenades hidden in their diapers".
And my coworker told me the same thing about Iraqi children- they were a threat and needed to be killed.
Another coworker told me that Iraqi children were future terrorists and needed to be killed.
I'm not impressed with American soldiers - except the ones in IVAW. Just like I only like Vietnam veterans who came back anti-war. And you must know that there were a lot of them - maybe a majority. I think that's why they ended the draft.
Here is a link to a Marine general who turned against the military. Major Smedley Butler. He was lauded enough that right wing capitalists in the 30s tried to get him to lead a military coup. But he was patriotic enough to refuse and expose it.
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Thomas More,

I believe we had the same kind of discussion several weeks ago, and must have apologized to each other a half-dozen times. But I'll reply, once again.

It is a nation's right to defend itself from a foreign invader. Call it self-defense. But when a nation invades another country, it is an act of aggression and the invader is the bad guy.

The United States is the world's big bully and most dangerous country on Earth and will eventually be cut down to size.

How many will die and suffer in the meantime? For What?

"This woman worked for 29 years for the army and the state department and now she wants to be a voice of conscience. While I do not doubt her sincerity, I doubt that there is anything that she could do at this late date to make up for her past action."

Whether or not you are a Christian shouldn't detract from the fact that 29-year persecutor of Christians , Saul , converted to a Christian advocate Was he successful? Just because Christianity is espoused by liars and hypocrites like Nixon,Bush,Hagee,Huckabee...does not nullify the truth and wise applicability of the Sermon on the Mount.

John Newton , probably the most famous slave-ship captain gave up his "profession" and spent the rest of his life encouraging William Wilberforce to persevere in his fifty- year fight against domestic slavery in England and the British involvement in the international slave-trade. Was John Newton and William Wiberforce successful? Do we have in-your-face slavery in any western countries today ?

Mohandas Gandhi spent many years in an elevated caste in
India and South Africa referring to the "untouchables" as sub-human and not worthy of freedom . He changed his attitude and took the Raj of 700 million fellow-Indians away from the British "landlords" albeit with blood-shed of massecre-minded Hindus and Muslims,( much like Sunnis and Shiites today)

Admitting your wrongs and advocating for the better like Ann Wright has done , is only repugnant to someone who has always been and will always be perfect.

Sir Thomas More
"Two tours qualifies me as far as I'm concerned.'
-that's two more than me, I was in during peace time 76-80 and was an avionics tech working on planes, never been in combat or Iraq-thank God

"I can't think there is anything worse than war, its the most terrible thing there is,..."
-amen brother

countcoup July 19th, 2008 6:07 pm

Point made, wish you had shown up earlier. We agree totally.

Our people shouldn't be in either place. Especially Iraq. Which I would certainly call a war of agression since we weren't attacked.

Pax

Please note that I speak specifically against wars of aggression, which are condemned by international law as well as intelligent thinking. A fine well trained and equipped military is essential to defend one's nation from those who have not yet learned the lesson that wars of aggression are wrong and there is nothing wrong with a stern reminder with a stern defense. But in reality, is that not exactly what the US Military is experiencing presently in both of these illegal wars of aggression?

countcoup July 19th, 2008 4:28 pm

You tell those kids whatever you think they need to know and to Hades with anything else.

I simply am trying to point out that anti-military is not the same as pro peace and that avoiding the need for a military is not honest.

tailcap July 19th, 2008 11:21 am

Sir Thomas More...Thanks for the promotion!

I totally agree with you. If you served there you know as well as I do what can and does happen. And that part is no different no matter the war. We both know there are the sickos you mention. But we weeded ours out as soon as we could.

"How many Iraqi Mothers have had US soldiers murder their babies? 300,000? more, less, I'm unsure…."

This is what I was replying to. And I see I should have put the # in there too.

What I said was US soldiers are not murdering millions of babies nor would they, nor would they murder one no matter who gives the order. We both know what we'd do if some officer had given the order to kill children...he would be regrettably MIA. Not then, not now, not ever.

The Haditha killings turned out to be not quite as reported so far, but I don't know the truth of it at all yet.

Let me see if I can clear this up, I am simply trying to say that suggesting that our Marines, soldiers murder anyone, babies or otherwise as a matter of course or policy. is a bald faced lie.

Anyone that has served in combat I believe is more than qualified to speak to what happens there. Two tours qualifies me as far as I'm concerned.

I never for a minute would suggest that terrible things don't happen, that we don't have some real sickos running around as you point out. That civilians are not killed.....but as you say, the boy that lit up that car, is he a murderer? I don't think so. Its not his fault.

I don't seem to be able to make myself clear, maybe you could help me, you were there too apparently, do you know what I mean?

peaceman July 19th, 2008 11:45 am

I appreciate your civil response and suggestions. Differ with me anytime you like sir.

I'm not trying to defend things that happen, what I said was we aren't killing 3 million babies or any as a matter of course or policy. Simple as that. And I would tell you that I doubt its any different now than its been before, not as many as you'd think, but of course there are some.

As to Greenerthanthou I simply asked and ask the same of you, what happens if she could turn everyone anti-military? What do you do then? I think thats a fair question muself. What exactly would you do without our military?

chessgames56 July 19th, 2008 11:52 am

Old enough to remember it well my friend. I assume you refer to the Mai Lai killings? It happened and some otheres too I know. But not many. NVA and Charles killed more than you'd believe.

" women and children were slaughtered as a matter of course, directly, face to face."

Thats flat Horseshit.(excuse me ladies, but sometimes stronger language is required) Not true in 66-67 or 68-69 for sure, Whoever told you that is a liar.

I don't know where I go wrong trying to explain things, but let me try this.....I can't think there is anything worse than war, its the most terrible thing there is, at least to my knowledge. I'd rather shoot myself rather than send your children to it lightly. Its horrible.

But lies about how things really were or twisting the truth to make a political point is just not acceptable to me. There are some real fantasy's running around out there.

posted to me "there were no spitting on veterans episodes" he knew it was the truth because he read it. Now since I saw two seperate episodes of that I could assure him his information was a lie to my certain knowledge. He still prefers to believe what he read.

This is not to say that some of the things that you said weren't true. And you don't ever want to send your son to war.

Any Combat veteran can tell you there are two things you never forget and you live with the rest of your life.

st john July 19th, 2008 1:08 pm

I do understand, it breaks my heart. Seeing the faces is even worse. God bless you and grant you peace (and them.)

Pax

For any parents who have been forced to loose a child in any manner but especially in a war of aggression, is a tragedy of unspeakable difficulty. We teach our children to stay away from dangerous situations, warning them of the consequences of being careless, driving too fast, or the list could go on and on. To teach our children to avoid the hazards of being in a war of aggression in another country, for reasons that never survive close scrutiny is also our duty as parents.
If let's say someone such as myself, a Veteran of the Vietnam era, who "volunteered" . If I were to tell a young person, someone else's child, that they would be breaking the law by participating in an illegal war of aggression, and name that war,
I could be charged under the Sedition Act, and jailed. Or to tell a young person who is already a member of the US Military that they are not required to obey an illegal order; and yes it is a decision that should be made out of a higher conscientiousness. The same charge could be levied, violation of the Sedition Act.
If a parent were to use the very same words with one of their own children, they could not be charged, for sny crime. The law recognizes the duty and privilege of a parent, eve when the same words would land another in jail.
Native Son is correct.
If we all as parents make the effort to teach our children that wars of aggression are illegal, in any form, by international standards, international law, and international treaties that the United States has signed and ratified.
That the Uniform Code of Military Justice, another branch of Codified Law governing our military personnel also states that it is the duty of every member of the US Military to disregard and not comply with illegal orders. That there is nothing written anywhere in our Constitution, Codes, or Laws nor anything but "custom" which even implies that participating in an illegal war of aggression is acceptable.
If enough people begin defying the "Custom" teaching their children or allowing them to be taught that sending our Military Personnel to fight and die for other Countries, or Nation (s), or People, is acceptable behavior.
For anyone who loves freedom and liberty and life cannot possibly believe that shedding your own blood for someone else's Freedom is not contrary to intelligent behavior, and is deemed illegal in civilized society.
However long it takes, however how many generations are required to make this transition; the journey must begin somewhere and sometime why not now?

Thank You

I share a poem I wrote in 2003, on my recollection of returning "Home" from Vietnam on January 1, 1969.

Coming Home
"st john"
April 14, 2003

Straight from the Killing Fields of Vietnam, December 31, 1968,
I arrive in an alien world in a New Year, January 1, 1969.
The streets of San Francisco are deserted,
There is a feeling of barrenness, abandonment
For there is no one to greet me
No one to assure me that I am really home.

Twenty-four hours ago I was an armed soldier,
Expected to kill without question, or be killed.
Today, I must practice reason and judgment,
Control my emotions and walk in peace.
Yet, I have not been prepared for this transition.
Armed only with Discharge Papers, I am free.

But what is this Freedom?
Haunted by the shadows of lives I have taken,
I must look into the eyes of those who know nothing
Of my pain, my fear, my remorse.
Yes, I killed and never saw the faces of those whose lives I took.
Transmitting orders to pilots and artillery batteries was easy.

But those lives are my life,
They are my responsibility forever,
And I don't know what to do about it.
There is no relief from this knowledge
Save perhaps in my own forgiveness
And can I really forgive myself?

The questions haunt me,
I think of the young men and women
Engaged in the current conflict
And wonder how they will handle this.
The horror of what they have been asked to do
Lives in my heart, for I know what awaits them.

Perhaps it will be years before it emerges,
Perhaps days or weeks or months,
But it will come out and it will be explosive.
The people around them will not understand.
How could they? They weren't there.
But those of us who know will understand, and we will weep.

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation

peace,
st john

Neither the children of privilege nor their privileged parents will ever know the costs of war. Only the profits and the pleasure they must derive from the murders attached to their profits.

Truth of the matter is---fighting and dieing for another country is a waste of one's life, time, energy, and even the thought of doing such a thing should be ridiculous and be so ingrained in a person that it be as known as ONLY the "TRUTH" .

It is very easy to fool an uninformed public, or one that is willing to be fooled, through their own lack of intelligent disbelief. The truth can only live next to information, and information is derived from many sources, never to be taken on "faith alone"
These current wars are basically huge feeding troughs for no more than 5 large corporations, one of the them the former employer of the VP. The only reason this could have taken place is that the majority of the voters are "conservative" --defined as one who believes that maintaining the status quo is essential to success. However that definition has proved "conservatism" to be a faulty doctrine---since maintaining the status quo prohibits the practitioner from learning from them mistakes of the past----and dooms them to repetition of those mistakes, even in defiance of the TRUTH. Which is exactly what the US is experiencing once again with these two wars, after so many other experiences in the past which have proved to be mistakes.
With a war however, the establishment still needs "bodies"---live bodies, that can be sent off and converted to "dead bodies". The "higher income members" (a 21st century euphemism for lower class) do not send their sons and daughters off to die for the USA mainly because they are better informed and NOT conservative --information and conservatism cannot coexist----don't confuse "education" with "being informed"--GW Bush has degrees from Harvard and Yale, and STILL cannot speak English well enough to converse effectively with anyone but another member of the "uniformed" or conservative.
To the "uninformed" "conservative mind" the thought of the USA being the "great liberator", the "nation that brings freedom to the oppressed"----is perfectly logical, and " part of Gods great plan for America"..
and they will over look any information that contradicts their beliefs. They are SLAVES to a faulty doctrine, doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past, because they do not know the TRUTH.

INFORMATION, "the TRUTH" should begin at home. If you tell a small child NO--usually the first word children learn in any language---the older they get the more you are required to elaborate as to WHY "No". When young people see movies or literature even comic books, concerning war they are almost always "pro"--using slogans like "America will bring Freedom to an oppressed people", etc. The glory of war is promoted before the gore of war. So switch that around here and now with this generation while they are still very young. Don't buy toys that they play "soldier or army" with. When they bring up the subject ridicule the subject---make is not only ugly but stupid and "uncool".
Then take your children to the VA facilities in your community, and let them see what they could "have to look forward to".
If every parent talked their children "out " of joining the military to go and fight for another country, then all of the big money who need war to make more big money---would need to pay for "mercenary forces" and that cost would be "cost" prohibitive. Why would they pay more when they have had parents helping them prepare their children for the "next great war"-----after all, those are all working class kids and they come cheap to those who have the money. Soon enough there would be history classes at the 3rd grade where the concept of an American fighting and dieing in another country, would be as ridiculous and "uncool" as eating dirt. They should know that if you do not know the TRUTH, you will be a slave.

I always try to throw something to the "conservative thinkers"---if any of them are reading this.---- Keep up the good work, next to birth control and abortion your current programs are doing a fairly good job at population control, and it helps to even out the playing field for future resources--the fewer you need to feed, the lower the feed bill.
A friend of mine recently complained to me that the local high school was required to allow recruiters to speak to the senior class members just before graduation. She objected, and rightfully so, but when I informed her that the school was required by Federal Law to allow this, (if they receive any Federal money) she was amazed. I then suggested that she and the other parents speak to the school board and ask that the seniors who were required to go to the auditorium and listen to the recruiters--be loaded up on buses and taken to the closest VA Medical Center. A good idea, but one quickly quashed by the school board for many reasons---none of which were intelligent but they used them anyway.
The parents were required to load the seniors up into various private vehicle and make a trip to the VA Med Ctr---- but were stopped at the door and not allowed to enter as a group............I wonder why? Is it because they are slaves and do not know the TRUTH?
John, 8:32 KJR
"KNOW the truth and the truth shall MAKE you free"

In AMURKA profit is privatized. Any major losses to the plutocracy: bank failures, Bear Stearns, subprime mortgage hedge funds etc. are fully socialized, with the taxpayers doing the bailing.

Socialism for the people- NO!
Socialism for Big Business Losses- YES!

To Thomas Moore:

What would be the result if someone were successful in convincing everyone to be anti-military? In the immortal words of Captain Yossarian, "Then I'd be a fool to think any different." And, there would be no more war which is the greatest crime of all.

To those looking to ascribe blame for children going into our now thoroughly corrupt, incompetent and neo-con poisoned military and mercenary cadres:

Blame the upper-class class warfare experts (plutocrats and their think-tanks, well-planted media shills, lobbyist pimps and whore politicians) who have designed and implemented a society that exports middle-class jobs instead of giving children of poorer families an economic alternative to military jobs in the permanent Warfare State now rendering the Welfare State unaffordable.

The economic conditions herding so many young Americans into the military were created, people, they didn't just happen by themselves. 99.99% of Americans didn't even read the "free trade" treaties after the multinational corporations wrote them--not even the whore legislators that voted for them.

Ralph Nader challenged every member of the House Committee voting on it to read the 800 page final summary for NAFTA and ONLY ONE ignoramus Republican (a slightly braver blow-hard than the rest) took him up on it. After the guy had actually read the damn thing he said in good faith he couldn't vote for it. STOP BEING A NATION OF SUCH SUCKERS, RUBES, HICKS, GHETTO CULTURE NAVEL GAZERS AND LAZY MINDED CORPORATE TOOLS: SHEEP TO BE SO EASILY SHORN!

Remember neo-conservative Republican economic guru Grover Norquist was the one who preached, "Starve the Welfare Beast!" One quick as hell way to do that is to (1) enact tax cuts for the super rich and, (2) more "free trade" treaties to rapidly export middle-class factory jobs and their tax revenue and, (3) allow in millions upon millions of illegal aliens in short period of 10 to 15 years (while superficially cracking on a few hundred here or there for domestic political "news" consumption--never punishing rich employers who hire them in any numbers) to drive up job competition for remaining jobs and drive down wages--ALL while trying to pay for MULTIPLE OPEN-ENDED "TERROR" WARS. It's Welfare State to permanent Warfare State, folks. Only guess who pays in their children's blood and treasure to bankroll it and guess who reaps the plunder in tax-payer subsidized family & crony contracts and oil (CORPORATE WELFARE). Socialism for the poor? BAAAAD! Socialism for the rich? GOOOOD! If you can't figure that out by now you are too stupid to vote, let alone reproduce.

Republican and DLC corporate Dimocrat interests are colluding to liquidate (at fire sale prices and revenue giveaways) any economic ability to continue to pay for programs of social uplift--including those that might spur the creation of middle-class jobs. Conservative super wealthy capitalists have ALWAYS despised the middle-class because, if it grows to a certain size, the middle-class starts actually wanting to participate in REAL self-government that annoyingly interferes with the cushy financially, legally and morally insulated wealth & POWER over-concentrated at the very top of the class ladder.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE FOLGERS, AMURKA!

The US has and is blatantly guilty of 'international gansterism.' Military spending of this magnitude must be self-perpetuating. Why? Conflicts must created and fueled to keep the machinery going.

This is how it goes: the US implants a dictator who serves it's interests for awhile (i.e., serves as a proxy for attacking someone else, as Saddam did with Iran). In the interim, America ignores the atrocities committed by said dictator until he no longer serves their interests. All the while, the US is providing him with weapons, meaning more $$$ for military corporations. Then he becomes an enemy who the US must attack--with what?--you guessed it, more military hardware! The whole military-industrial-complex has become a vortex with a life of its own and, as long as there is a war to fight or in the making, can never lose!

Moreover, there is MSM to glorify the military and the excitement of manning the latest and greatest military hardware. Video games are invented that provide the 'thrill' of battle simulation. And parents, poor sleeping parents, buy magnetic 'support the troops' stickers and attach them to their SUVs. Kids get this message: my parents will be proud of me if I join the military. Oh, and the movies show beautiful women swooning over men in uniform.

Now on to the reality of war. I do not know how old Thomas Moore is, but if we remember the Vietnam war, women and children were slaughtered as a matter of course, directly, face to face. There was a famous trial which took place when someone got caught. The problem is, dear Thomas, is that the 'enemy' becomes dehumanized, so he or she is not like my daughter of son. Deep down, though, many soldiers know this is wrong, and never get over it upon returning from a war zone, but that is another matter. Then there's the so-called collateral damage, which includes the blown off legs of little children who had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time when the bombs fell.

So let's not pull any punches and call war what it really is: state sponsored gansterism (terrorism works just as well.) We have been shielded here from the full horror of war, and I daresay, unless we've actually been in a war zone or fought in one, haven't a clue to what it's really all about.

Finally, even if we support a war in ignorance, we are still responsible for the results we beget, including our children dying on the battlefield.

Thomas Moore,

Regarding your comments to lisa3210peace and greenerthanthou, I beg to differ with you. I don't know how much information you have read, saw on video, or heard on radio or television, but our "troops" have committed atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan and some have had the courage to testify during the recent 'Winter Soldiers' gathering in March of this year. The US military is supposed to protect American soil and our citizens, not venture to the four corners of the earth killing, maiming, torturing, raping, pillaging and plundering weaker peoples on this planet. It's called "imperialism" and there is no such thing as a war on terror, Mr. Moore. That term is false. The war is against the American people not willing to give the "Sig Heil" (not sure of the spelling) salute to the criminals running this country into the ground with the intent of enslaving the majority and returning to the days of feudalism. And pedaling the same thing abroad.

I second what these two women said.

Thomas More July 19th, 2008 11:00 am
I don't know who told you US soldiers murder babies, but they are bald faced liars.

-Although, as a former Marine Sgt. myself, I'm sure it's not the norm, but I am also certain the military contains a certain number of sickos that have or are capable of murdering innocent men, women and children and even babies in cold blood and indeed there are documented cases of this happening. Check out the Haditha massacre. US soldiers have been charged with murdering entire families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident where 24 Iraqi men, women and children were killed on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraq province of Al Anbar. At least 15 of those killed were noncombatant civilians and all were killed by a group of United States Marines[1]. It has been alleged that the killings were retribution for the attack on a convoy of United States Marines with an improvised explosive device that killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas.[2]

With all due respect, Sir Thomas More, how would you know what is, has or will happen in a war zone?
A car races towards you, you "light it up", next thing you know it turns out to be a family heading to a picnic. Some killings are intentional and some are not but sick shit does happen.

Sorry to double post, I thought the original posting was lost.

lisa3210peace July 18th, 2008 11:09 pm

I don't know who told you US soldiers murder babies, but they are bald faced liars.

greenerthanthou July 18th, 2008 4:35 pm

What would be the result if you were sucessful and convinced everyone to be anti-military? Convinced every young man not to join? Your Dad obviously saw combat and I understand his feelings, but did you ever ask him if we should unilateraly abolish our military?

lisa3210peace July 18th, 2008 11:09 pm

I have no idea who told you US soldiers go around murdering babies, but its a bald faced lie. Whoever it was has their own agenda.

I trust the skin color and English speaking remark were satirical......

MikeBinSC July 19th, 2008 4:00 am

Theres quite a lot of propagada put out by both sides, you are right about the Complex's skill, but what about counter propaganda thats just as hard to stop? I'd like to know what people would think if everyone was sucessful at anti-military propaganda? I believe we need balance in our thinking. As you point out, Ann Wright is demonized simply because she served.

Obama, the "antiwar" candidate:
We need more troops, more helicopters, more satellites, more Predator drones in the Afghan border region. And we must make it clear that if Pakistan cannot or will not act, we will take out high-level terrorist targets like bin Laden if we have them in our sights."

He wants 90,000 more troops for what? Peace? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Vote 2nd party or drink more Kool-aid.

Who says there are no political prisoners in the land of the 'free' and the 'brave'.

I am so sick and tired of hearing references to the "War in Iraq," especially here on Common Dreams, where you'd think folks would know better, that I can hardly bear to read Common Dreams any more. Please, please, please use the correct terms when referring to the travesty unfolding in Iraq. It is nothing less than THE UNLAWFUL, PREMEDIATED INVASION OF A SOVERIGN COUNTRY BY THE UNITED STATES, CAUSING THE NEEDLESS DEATH OF MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF ACQUIRING THAT NATION'S OIL SUPPLY!!!!! It's time we call a spade a spade and stop using the double-speak of the rogue Bush administration.

Big Deal.

Spare a thought for the hundreds of thousands of parents of Iraqis and Afghans who have been killed as result of the so called US War on Terror.

HOW YOU SOW... SO YOU REAP

twistoflex July 19th, 2008 1:37 am - "I doubt that there is anything that she could do at this late date to make up for her past actions."

Twistoflex, you really should do more research before making a comment like that. Col. Ann Wright is not a newcomer to the anti-war effort, as she resigned her commission when Bush began his illegal, immoral war-of-choice and occupation of Iraq. She has been fighting with the good guys ever since to put an end to the madness.

Enlightenment and understanding comes to different people, in different walks of life, at different times and in different ways. The important thing is that it does come, and when it comes, that you take whatever action you can to enlighten others. Ann has done that in spades. Enlightenment also carries with it, the responsibility to try and understand another's lack of it.

The misinformation and propaganda put out by the MIMIC (Military-Industrial-Media-Infotainment-Complex) is hard to resist, overcome and fight back against, especially if you happen to wake up deep in the belly of the beast. A great many of the people in the country still believe it.

There's an interesting HBO series about soldiers in Iraq.I like this article.
____________________________________
peter
Addiction Recovery New Hampshire

This woman worked for 29 years for the army and the state department and now she wants to be a voice of conscience. While I do not doubt her sincerity, I doubt that there is anything that she could do at this late date to make up for her past actions.

9/11=False flag terror. We need our troops to protect us from the enemy within...

to those who righteouly blamed parents for children going into the army:
i have noticed that those persons who have a low income are targeted by the military ...lots of mail sent to the hs students advertising how wonderful it would be to realize their dreams of college education, employment etc.....yes, some of these parents do warn against joining...however, a lot of youngsters join out of the impulse to get a job ...earn money to support their mothers and siblings...and some see it as a way out of the ghettos....

i would say, blame our educational system that makes children into consumer robots....blame the counties and school districts that make mothers shake in fear of having their children taken away if they don't attend these schools....
blame ourselves for letting this government take over when the election was clearly a coup....
blame ourselves for not supporting single parnets
blame ourselves for driving
our personal WMD and buying the ideas that we need oil to live our cushy lives....ad infinitum....

Our all-volunteer paid army has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's.

A stressful way to make a living.

Ever SINGLE one of those Dead Iraqi's HAD mothers also.
Or daughters or fathers or bothers or sometimes all.

How many Iraqi Mothers have had US soldiers murder their babies? 300,000? more, less, I'm unsure....
As the parent of a dead son, I can't help but think of them as real people. Even though their skin is not white and they did not speak English.

its time to bring them all home and put them thru intensive reverse cult brain washing program .. for who knows.. some day they may be asked to turn these practices that they've been trained… on us...

it is a soldiers duty to deny or turn down an order that is morally reprehensible...

think other then the handful of ppl that have deserted have practiced this?

they have brainwashed them to WANT to go back after their tour is over... when asked why... not because they believe in what they are doing... but because they want to be their for their fellow friends and soldiers... to help keep them safe... and they buy this...and we buy this... and yet when its time to honor them... when they come home less then alive from this travesty of "justice" we deny the right to every american citizen to see the TRUE cost of this war... not in dollars and cents... but the end of another young man or woman...

and when they attack iran... and then realize they cant leave iraq but need to get back into afghanistan... and you all wonder if they will institute the draft... ask yourself ... not if... but when.. because its coming... they just don't have enough ppl willing to go into the armed services anymore…

just as a side note... now that women are allowed in the military... think that the draft will be men only?

or will sick womens groups fight for the right for women to be drafted as well?

equality for all right?

protest our corrupt... evil and criminal govt... stay home on 9 11!

"The costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan continue to mount. The lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans and millions of Iraqis and Afghans have been permanently damaged by these wars. Support the families, but end the war."

May this wish/prayer be granted so fast it seems like a reincarnation of the Concorde.

Ann Wright,

I would be less concerned about the well being of our soldiers who are fighting two illegal wars, and much more concerned about their victims.

Truthseeker58, I found myself way way over the top the other day, chased a woman, had a BUSHI, BUSHII '00, '04, and a GD REAGAN BUMPERSTICKER, all over everywhere. Grocery store parking lot I'm chasing this woman with a bottle[plastic]screaming she took my Constitution away, She advocates Murder and torture, I hate yOU YOUY...then I saw what I appeared to look like, not that it varies that much at my age daily.
Yeah, Ann, I saw you at the hearings as well. I know how you restrain yourself, military after 29 years, AIN'T GOIN' NOWHERE! I've yet to hear you say 'No ' to a request, you may be near me in Philly and talking until 1 AM, get a call from Boise and off you go. I think people are surprised at your diminutive stature, your soft spoken voice and that grand smile. Don't give a damn what others say you've never brought harm to any of us and I find you quite engaging.

the lorax, teaching your children not to join the imperialist war machine should start long before they're 18. I taught my kids to be anti-military. Where did I get it? From my Dad, who came out of WW2 a war hater

We went to a couple of Blue Angel displays, just cause they were cool, and I asked my Dad to go the next time. He refused, saying that the Blue Angels job was to terrorize people and kill people and they wasted a lot of fuel to boot. That's the last time I went to a Blue Angel display!

The people who breed conscripts also start early. You can see them at parades down here in the rural area. Little boys, dressed in camouflage, waving their plastic American flags and hitting each other with sticks, while their parents laugh indulgently. "Boys will be boys".

It's probably that much more agonizing for the parents who understand that The USA is neither officially nor Constitutionally in a state of war with any nation on Earth.

AW's message would be much more powerful if she refused the Rove-frame propaganda and called it as it is:

"The costs of the ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS in Iraq and Afghanistan continue to mount. The lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans and millions of Iraqis and Afghans have been permanently damaged by these ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS. Support the families, but end the ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS."

Truthseeker58,

you might find the following link of interest:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/uscivilflag.html

I have never seen such a flag depicted anywhere else and wonder if anyone can verify what the site says.

This boils down to responsible parenting.
As a parent, it is utter nonsense that I am not responsible for my childs actions and influential to the decisions they make in their lives.
Parenting is a very serious responsibility and that obligation doesn't end when the child turns 18. A responsible parent doesn't recommend or allow their child to join a military service or military oriented organization like Blackwater.
Any military enlistment should be made by the child in direct violation of upbringing, counsel, and parental influence. A parent that recommends military service to their child is irresponsible and should refrain from future breeding.
So although it's hard for the families to deal with the lies regarding their son's or daughter's demise in a war zone, it should come as no surprise. Slap 'em on the back and ship 'em off to war. They'll come back in a box and you'll get a nice settlement. That's responsible parenting!

Hey Ann--I saw you sitting behind Addington and Yoo during the hearings and lady, I don't know how you restrained yourself from getting up and slapping those jerks silly. Must have been the discipline of your military training.

Thanks for your service to our country then and now. Then by resigning before the wars in the mid-east began as a sign of rejection oif the policy from the git-go, (if a thousand or so other diplomats had done the same thing who knows what might have been?).

Now by continuing to keep us informed on the terrible costs this war is inflicting on everyone and the folly of this totally insane government doing these terrible things in our collective names.

There's an interesting HBO series about soldiers in Iraq.

Whenever I see a car with a bush/cheney bumper sticker, I look at the driver and loudly think "FASCIST". And, sadly, and I can't help it, when I see the US flag flying from an SUV or car or always in front of a house, I loudly think "FASCIST" again. I think our flag is ruined and won't recover from this. When we rebuild anew one day, I'm almost certain a new flag will come.

Nietzsche - it's time like these when I wish I didn't believe that Hell is on earth, and that we're living it.

The thought of Cheney and the rest of those responsible for this particularly hellish nightmare spending eternity in one made to order for each of them is so pleasant to contemplate.

Yep, they learned from the 60's & 70's how to get back from Canada those who desert from their military for whatever personal reasons.

A person at another site a couple years ago asked, Why, weren't they allowed to show returning dead bodies from the war? I said because they learned their lesson from Vietnam, & wrote the law so the bodies of dead soldiers could no longer be shown by tv, and perhaps pictures for newspapers & magazines.

I tell other people of Native Heritage not to join the military, but that is all up to their own free will decisions. You sign the papers you take your chances.

Future.me - Where were all those people who support the troops when this kinda stuff happens?

Spewing the crap that these were traitors, and they got what they deserved - no doubt even including PFC Lavena Johnson in the judgement in order to defend the military.

Anybody with a heart condition who drinks like Cheney does had to have made some kind of deal with the devil. He can serve Satan as long as he is alive; once in hell he will be capable of no new evil.

those that show no mercy should not be surprised when the favor is returned. we could all use a stronger dose of this quality, and i know it will not start with our "leaders." it is up to each of us to begin, where we are, at this very moment, to become more aware of and demonstrate our deeper strength. the conditions of the world are our tests. when we fail them, we are "sent back" as in school, until a particular lesson is learned. as individuals and as a society we have a long way to go. pray that we can learn before we bring about the end of the world.

Yeah. Were are all those people who support the troops when this kinda stuff happens. Support the Troops my ass.

Bush and Cheney's only concern is that the suffering of these parents is not a cost that shows up on the books of Blackwater, Halliburton, and other war profiteers.

jj

I wonder how many rapes and murders Blackwater criminals have committed.