What a scary character.How would you like to meet him in a dark alley?I don't think so.

Dream Warrior if it is to be organized it needs to be more than just talked about....action which you seem to call for regularly...I'm at Peterntomsbro@aol.com shall we type? Linkalpha
any others interested just who are "WE" and what are we willing to do?

Ashcroft, just like the psychotic monkey, has the perfect excuse for all the harm they have done. Their best excuse is that God made them do it. Which god.

Look at that picture of ~ASHCROFT~ The rat s-o-b is wall-eyed, he cannot look anyone in the eyes with both eyes when he's lying.

Richard Paine: Indeed, it is our duty!

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"
-- Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776

I think we should post the bill of rights on everything that can be stapled or tacked, including the representative's for-heads.
God save the people—everywhere!

ummm okay.... lets see how many ppl i can piss of today...

so folks.. outraged at waterboarding TORTURE are you?

and these folks in govt... how did they get there?

and who pays their salaries?

ummm hmmmm ..... starting to see where i'm going with this?

paid your income taxes lately?

we are ALL responsible... no different then if we all stood in line and waited our turn to pour the buckets!!!

when will the amercian ppl wake up and realize that we have the power... that our dollars dictate this... since those in power have decided that amongst themselves that money is power and power is everything...

pay attention where your dollar goes... and umm... there are forms that you can get from the local "I" place that will start the process of untangling yourselves from the tax system... its long and the process is mind numbingly full of paperwork... but it can be done...

cause at the end of the day.. income tax was never made into law... just habit!

and anney... i love love LOVE your idea!!!!

so who's going to organize it? Or is it already being organized?

maybe it can be done on 9/11 and for those that cant travel can all stay home and pay their respects to those lives lost. The entire country will stop to observe this event!

ooo oooo oooo i know... since water boarding is not considered torture by our current administration... and what did they say... it was a viable method to get valuable information... and again... since its NOT torture... why not use this method of "questioning" for these fellows that keep ignoring congressional subpoenas?.. yeah? what do you all say?

ooo and better yet... it can be aired on cspan so that the american ppl can judge for themselves... yeah?

we can start a petition :)))))

"What have you done for your dream today?"

The last straw was the hearing they held for Rove as the featured 'guest'. They provided a microphone, a glass of water and extra seats for witnesses. Only Rove had fled the country on that particular day. I envisioned the witness seats begin taken by the ghosts of the founding fathers and imagined a conversation they may have held among themselves as well as a few choice words they might have had for the committee that held the so called hearing. I can not think for one minute that these illustrious gentlemen would have found any humore in the situation. Justice in the United States today is a mockery of everything they stood for. For the most part Congress could fold up their tents and go home for good as they have absolutely no sense of worth or right from wrong and have not carried out the business of the American public. AS the Queen said in Alice in Wonderland "Off with their heads!"

He (Ashcroft) said he does not believe waterboarding, as it was then described by the CIA, amounted to torture.

Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime
By Evan Wallach
Sunday, November 4, 2007;
…Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

"A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession."

----
So, he (Ashcroft) was wrong. He made a mistake and like the Japanese officers he and his administration colleagues who were aware of these interogation methods and authorised torture should be tried and when found guilty, they should go to Jail as a war criminal.

And, the return of the Republic!

And, the Declaration of Independence!

Long Live the Constitution of the United States of America!

A little to real? or Unreal? Must be dinner time it sure got quiet.......

Of course this is a dream and a full blown campaign with all they spend would be a waste of resource. Are you aware many in the first revolution which started this all weren't paid fed or clothed by the Constitutional Congress.
They had a dream, my dream is the showing....the standing of 'We The People" saying we will not back anything other than our Constitution and a quick candidate or no candidate just write in whom ever you want. The fact of setting a date and like I said everywhere all 50 states and we the People stand and demand our Constitution back.

Richard Paine, anney: There are several names that I would consider for leadership, but Boy O Boy, we need new blood, and a lot of good sound reason and common sense. For starters I would suggest Bill Moyers as chief advior, and I would also second a willingness to develop a party news organization on a national level. With a few good loyal Constitutionalists like Robert Byrd it would be a facinating and worthwhile endeavor. All dreams are pipe dreams in the beginning, but the founding fathers had a dream and it was a good one, good enough to uphold and continue for many more generations.

Peterntomsbro@Aol.com is where I might be reached
are there others who think like Anney and Annabelle and myself?

Has this offense been the straw which has broken your back? There comes a time when it becomes not only right but duty, according to the US Constitution. If not now, when and where and who and how? I think/Believe we all know why.

Shall we make this the new reality instead of what appears to be happening? A real change/ for at least the next hundred years or do we accept and say nothing, not even good bye to the Constitution?

Richard Paine

A third party development would take time, and it would be a waste of resources to aim for this election. Much money and careful planning would be needed to be a serious contender in the next election. There would need to be big name recognition of and respect for candidates, though it could certainly be open to anyone as long as they're Constitutionalists, I'd think.

I don't know if it's dreaming or not. I'll do some checking.

The Constitutional Revival Party do you suppose we might get Credence Clearwater Revival for part of the show. Annabelle have you someone in mind for the President, VP and Cabinet?

Anney what is the time frame for pulling such a permit? And while I would agree on the filming and sound, the major nets if they even showed anything would definitely edit to their slant.....but the full show could be done on u tube as well as other internet. And I'm sure some independents as well as foreign press would cover such a thing.
This might be such a quickly put together happening that it couldn't be stopped......
are we for real or just pipe dreaming?

davewrite first of all, you need to get a life and stop blaming Christians for the problems of the world. Done.

Ashcroft is an idiot, a full blown idiot. No real person with any ounce of humanity would dare endorse such an act as waterboarding.

So long and goodnight America, we are going to *&^% the world until we are gone.

Richard Paine

While protests in other places would certainly work, Washington is where the destruction of the Constitution took place and is central for large gatherings of people with a permit.

annabelle

I think MoveOn or another large organization concerned with bringing back America's Constitutional strength (ACLU?) would be the best lead sponsor of such a demonstration, and there could certainly be a place somewhere for the origination of a new party. I also think the sponsor should bring its own camera crew and record it to send to major and minor TV news outlets. That way, the message could be presented whole, rather than in meaningless or watered-down bits.

Yeah, frank1569, you're right. Waterboarding sounds like surfing, a great and fun activity. (More of the Bush doublespeak). It should be called by its rightful name, "water torture".

But Christopher Hitchens called waterboarding torture, so it must be true.

Okay, anney. I am on board for your idea, which is a really good way of positive protesting. While your idea is simmering why not make your meeting the gathering of persons ready to form a new political party, The CRP...The Constitutional Revival Party. Simple, the party platform is already written, it only needs to be adopted and viola, a third national party with more clout than any party now standing!!

The truth is now coming out and we citizens have the chance to see and hear about how crimnal and ruthless our so called leaders have been these past 7 years. It amazes me on how these thugs lack any sense of common decency.

"Let the eeeeeeea-gle torture...."

"Shouldn't the discussion about the legality of water boarding have taken place during the confirmation hearings for Attorney General Mukasey ?" And that was done as a result of the Democrat's complicity.

John Aschroft is a fine specimen of Christian, isn't he? "let the eagle soar......"

Bush, Ashcroft, et al are not trying to defend or justify torture. They are trying to evade legal accountability, as set forth in our laws as many posts have pointed out.

The question is whether or not the rule of law will win out in the end. If so, in what time frame? If not... well, I don't want to think about it. It is hard to resist terms like "fall from grace."

You just can't justify torture... no matter how hard you try. It disgusts me that they think they can justify their illegal actions because they're used on "Terrorists"... That seems to be the excuse for everything. Terrorist, terrorist terrorist. There's NO SUCH THING as a terrorist. Period. There are resistance groups, militant groups, even criminal groups... but the only "Terrorists" are state sponsored.

Just remember, that when they refer to John McCain as a war hero because he underwent torture.

He was never tortured. He sang like a canary but the US Governments official position is that none of what happened to him was torture.

Anney,
Really seems as if you know how to organize or visualize a gathering........but why take it just to D.C. where they don't care and are the ones who have let the Constitution die......what is wrong with everywhere in the country's cities towns and rural areas. Are we not all Americans? Did not all 50 states make up what once was a country under a Constitution? Should we all not take the opportunity to mourn the loss at home, in our communities, for this is what we are losing. Also in your consideration are all the places in DC you mentioned "Free Speech Zones"? For if not you may be breaking the new law while trying to mourn the old law.......and gee, they don't like or allow that don't you know.

Ann R. Key: "Mocking a person's religious beliefs is torture?"

I was going with an allusion from the Gospels, where the Roman soldiers reportedly whipped Jesus and then mocked him, a day before the nailing ritual.

In modern times, one soldier was known to have flushed a Koran down the toilet, and soldiers make fun of the "hammocks" in which the prisoners keep their Korans. The troops' general slang name "Hajii" for Muslims probably refers to the Muslim journey to Mecca. I expect there will be other denigrations of Islam that I haven't heard. The troops don't seem to denigrate Presbyterians, Mahayana Buddhists or any other religious group with anywhere near the same ferocity.

I think mental torture counts. It's not "no harm, no foul", or as the administration once claimed, if it doesn't damage a major organ it's ok. For example, being forced to watch a good friend be tortured or raped would also count as torture in my opinion.

Shouldn't the discussion about the legality of water boarding have taken place during the confirmation hearings for Attorney General Mukasey ?

At his hearings he refused to say whether it was torture or not and the Democrats helped the Republicans get him confirmed. Obama didn't even bother to show up for the vote.

Why all the hearings now at the eleventh hour? What a mockery and a farce.

Something like this should make the warning bells go off in 31% of the voting populations heads who still support everything Bush does. But, I would bet money it doesn't. Most of them have been so brain washed with the fascist ideology they can no longer think for themselves. They don't resemble the old Republican Party in anyway! That died with Ronald Reagan! We put a man in the White House (or I should say the Supreme Court did) who has no respect for the law, the constitution or the American people. Who made certain votes were not counted in Florida to spoil his illegal grab for the office. So what do people expect????? He is going to put people in office who know the law or cronies who are steeped in his own fascist ideology?????? Who are going to do exactly what he says and never question Bush's decisions. I would have bet money that would be Ashcroft's response. He is cut of the same cloth Bush is.

Let's be BRUTALLY honest.

We are not stopping these criminals.

We have not done enough.

They ARE winning, we ARE losing.

Do you realize why people blow themselves up yet? Do you also realize why even using torture we will never stop them using the tactics we use?

How serious are you about survival? Has it hit your home yet?

When i see how the system divides us so that this shit becomes the status Quo, I think that the best way to deal with doing the right thing is to forget about parties.... our forefathers thought they would just let the Banks take over...

So our system is complex and has evolved under much corruption into two parties that count.... they are in the Major league and all the 3rd parties serve as a good place to learn and form connections but a vote for them just splits the most progressive forces and keeps us separated by scores of third parties that guarantee that if we do not become infidels, we well be safely divided from combining our power.... It is a rigged system against us People, so I sayeth.... we got to quit thinking in terms of parties and in terms of going forward..Progressing for a better world or not goin nowhere ... regressing.

We should tell the parties "sorry fellas but we aren't playing the house game anymore...we are playin to Win, Suckers!!! Ha.... so we are gonna vote for the strongest progressive with the strongest leadership and support to represent us".... Got It?

Viva the Revolution!

Richard Paine

I wonder what might happen if we all got together and took a few days off to mourn for what once was the United States of America?

Interesting thought. Americans could make a profound statement by gathering by the thousands or even a million in Washington for a Day of Mourning to commemorate the destruction of the Constitution. In the morning, banner-carrying demonstrators could remain utterly silent and still, dressed in black, place funeral wreaths in front of the White House, Congress, and the Supreme Court, and conduct a ceremony where a copy of the Constitution is placed in a casket and driven away in a hearse.

In the afternoon, a mock trial in front of the White House of those who have destroyed America's greatness during the last 7.5 years. Cite them by name, list their crimes and complicity, declare them guilty, and pronounce a sentence for their crimes and complicity.

Then go home with no incidents of violence or disruption.

Ashcroft was never "right in the head" anyway, was he? He's the one who insisted that nude statues all over the capital be covered up, wasn't he? What a moron!
If only Ascroft had cared as much about human beings as he-apparently-does about statues. Ashcroft is just another right-wing nutter in search of a straight jacket. Think about it. Torture for human beings; but no nudity for statues. What a screwball he really is.

Unfortunately, at least in my understanding of history, crimes against humanity have never been successfully prosecuted by the government that has committed them. I doubt that we can expect much from these proceedings, especially if the congressional response to the FISA surveillance issue is any indication. It will be a good show, however, and great for the campaign... which, as we are starting to see, will occupy itself with the next best place to drop bombs and kill more little brown people.

One would hope that the international community will take up the call to investigate and prosecute the war crimes committed by a government hamstrung by complicity and laziness (and covetous desire for the top spot in that same government) as it has been able to do in the past, but again those bombs are a powerful deterrent for any serious inquiry and truth commission.

What should we look for next: A complete re-rendering of the course of this history as it has unfolded? Then we will all be satisfied that our tax dollars have been successfully siphoned off to pay for torture and to fill the pockets of the smallest fraction of the oligarchs who imagine themselves to be above the fray of real world events.... and somehow deserve to benefit from the bloodletting they have directed and called free market capitalism.

Does this mean that Americans can treat their fellow citizens any way they wish, except that an action causing pain similar in intensity to that caused by death or organ failure is illegal?

Does this mean we will need to re-write our laws on assault and battery? Does this mean that any of us can kidnap one of our fellow citizens, say a president who is a murderer and a fraud, and pull his fingernails out, sodomize him, cover him with excrement, wire him up with electrodes, make him stand for 48 hours shackled to a wall? Or his family, maybe his wife and daughters?

How far behind are American citizens themselves if the American government authorizes torture for "foreigners"? Won't that government consider this treatment for its own citizens sooner or later by designating them "terrorists", whether they are or not? There are already one million Americans on the government's "terrorist" watchlist. When will they be pulled off the streets or out of their homes and tortured?

We say this kind of thing is Kafka-esque. But as we've seen countless times throughout history, those with unlimited power have done just this.

Had it not been for the gross incompetence and arrogance of Ashcroft and Rice, the 9/11 hijackings would have been prevented and we would not be at war. When Bush appointed this Crisco-anointed, snake-handling, tongue-speaking nutjob as AG, I knew we were in for trouble. I just didn't know how much.

" when made in another time frame " another time frame is part of the excuse? There is no excuse, though it doesn't matter because we no longer exist under the US Constitution. Our government officials are doing whatever they wish...illegal or not, what is the difference? So!

Some 200+ years ago a group got tired of such nonsense as this.....they took a stand, they made a Declaration, they fought and died, then got together under a Constitution and formed a country.

We of today, just sit and watch and wonder what to do......what is going on. Well there's nothing we can do because those elected have given up the Constitution....it is over a grand experiment........

I wonder what might happen if we all got together and took a few days off to mourn for what once was the United States of America?

Frank1569 is right. We need to confront the propaganda about this issue. Lying about torture using propaganda terms like "waterboarding" to justify its use, is a crime against reality.

Water torture is controlled drowning, simulated death, and is, obviously, a form of torture.

The consequence of this according to US law is a felony conviction up to and including the death penalty.

Here is a link to the War Crimes Act of 1996:

www2.uakron.edu/low/War%20Crimes%20Act%20of%201996.doc

Here is a key provision:

"(a) Offense.--Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death."

If the rule of law falls completely apart, and the Constitution becomes not enforced by the government, then the key terms in the Declaration of Independence become the operating option.

Too much chaos circulating in the cosmos.

This is getting very very bad.

Representatives like Ric Keller and Steve King are perfect examples of how bad it has gotten.

This country is a sham.

Did he sing his fucking "Eagle" shitbird song? Now THAT is torture

Ashcroft:

Torture - OK
Statue Titties - EVIL

this guy is seriously fucked up

Where are the usual suspects that constantly repeat "Obama and all Dems are just as bad"?

The idea of America implies a certain basic respect for people. Violating those ideals debases everything we have stood for since our very beginning and the very foundation of our civilization. It is not a matter of parsing words and being constrained by the letter of the law. Rather it is a kind of affirmative patriotism, and those who claim Natural Law and Strict Construction should be particularly sensitive to this. They are not. If we cannot act without violating the "Rights of Man", we should not act, period. This to protect the validity of our ideals. Nullus en verba -- actions form the basis of our judgment, out of the abundance of our hearts. It has become apparent that our present leadership has utterly abandoned all of this, and there comes a time in the course of human events. Our nation threatens to consume itself. Alas.

Of course John Ashcroft defends water boarding. In his house, that's foreplay.

The NAZI was "just following orders",,,,, now that is a defense we heard after WWII.

He relied on Mr Yoo (magoo) the menatally sick twisted piece of shit pervert.

I wonder if Ashcroft was doing Mr Gannon too in the White House,,,,,,,

Coffeelover

Those who think they speak for a god think they are above all other humans. That is why religion and government should not be mixed. Our founding fathers noted this human abberation throughout history and explicitly did not include religion in our constitution.

It is not hard for those without compassion to torture fellow human beings, pull the wings off of flies or torture dogs & cats, and kill people by waging wars for profit.

This group are not Christians . . . .
I repeat NOT Christians . . . . .
At least Christians in the sense that I was lead to believe that Christians are . . . . They use religion and hide behind it to disguise the greed and power that they need and crave to feel good about themselves. These are sick individuals and some how they found each other and now America is paying the price.

Why is it always conservative Christians who have no conscience? Why are Bible thumpers the most dismissive of the admonitions to have mercy, to turn the other cheek ("Vengence is mine,' sayth the Lord), to treat others as they would have them treat them, to care for the least among us, especially the poor and hungry?

These brainwashed soldiers (often young boys) being tortured were only paying allegiance to their country and leaders just as American boys are brainwashed into paying allegiance to ours.

CYA for sadists. Nothing more.

The slippery slope is far behind us.

This is getting to be like the Great Depression.

"Buddy, can you spare a crime?"

I agree, and not until then.

OldBadgerToo, "[A]s long as a visceral, principled revulsion at the thought of torture fails to come into existence in the general population, torture will continue unabated and unashamed."

Thanks for verbalizing a great and eternal truth.

It fits with the bumper sticker on my Jeep:
WHEN THE POWER OF LOVE
OVERCOMES THE LOVE OF POWER
THE WORLD WILL KNOW PEACE

This guy apparently attended the same school of morality as did John Hagee and Pat Robertson.

As long as you make a show of an aversion to nudity, pray out loud in public, and believe that God has reserved for himself the land where Israel is located, then it's ok to do just about anything else you want to do, including wringing the last penny out of the poor to give corporate America an "incentive" to steal that very penny, Torture sentient beings for no reason, and make a mockery of the teachings of the very teacher you claim to revere.

Come to think of it, that's pretty much the official moral code of the Republican party.

He could care less if American troops are
tortured. I'm sure none of his family is serving in Iraq. He has to be one of very few,
if not the only, men who have lost an election
to a dead man. We also have to remember he covered a statue because it's tits embarrassed
him. (or maybe they excited him) A fitting
punishment for all the old bastards who can't
decide if water-torture is real torture would
be to put them on boards and "simulate drowning" untill their evil old hearts quit beating. Bush and Cheney should be the first
and second in line.

Waterboard Ashcroft? That's the attitude that means he and the rest of the cabal will get away with it. Point to one tv/fiolm "hero" who doesn't "bend the rules" by torturing and abusing and even killing "suspects" or "bad guys". Jack Bauer is just one example. The simple fact is that people are not physically revolted by the mere notion of torture - they cheerfully wish it on those they dislike. And as long as a visceral, principled revulsion at the thought of torture fails to come into existance in the general population, torture will continue unabated and unashamed.

Mocking a person's religious beliefs is torture?

gadsden08,

Rep. Maxine Waters asked Ashcroft that question "If it would be acceptable to use these methods on American troops?" And Ashcraft evaded the question.

Ashcroft is a typical chicken hawk conservative who if he actually had to conduct an interrogation himself, he would botch it horribly. So he benefited the Repugs affirmative action plan (borrowed from the Dilbert school of management), where the idiots are put into the place where they can do the least damage: management. If not for the Supreme Court, Ashcrack would have been known as the senator who lost a re-election campaign to a dead guy.

"He (Ashcroft) added that he relied on his staff attorneys - and Yoo in particular - to give him sound legal advice."

In other words, the standard Bush-wimp defense: I didn't do it.

Note to the AP: there is no such thing as "waterboarding." It's called, and has always been called, WATER TORTURE. Please refrain from using Bush propaganda terms, or cease referring to yourselves as a "news organization."

Someone in the Congress or the press needs to ask this sorry asshole just one question. "Are these same methods acceptable when used on captured Americans?"

I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen..

Ashcroft, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith - Are we eventually going to find out out that all of these fucking assholes were made in a factory by Dr. Frankenstein !

This sadistic war criminal will never see justice. The best that humanity can hope for now is to have this vampire buried with a bacon wrapped stake in his heart right beside his Presidential Medal of Freedom.

This is inconceivable.
How could anyone stand on the floor of the House of Representatives and state that torture is OK? Even worse is that he wasn't laughed out of the place or arrested.
This is a clear indication that many of our Congressional leaders are snubbing Constitutional Law. That being the case, it is up to State Governments to start holing them accountable for what basically amounts to treason.

I can assume that John Ashcroft defends various related types of torture too:

--The jamming of a crown of thorns down on a man's head.

--Whipping

--Mocking a person's religious beliefs

--Driving nails through a man's hands and feet doesn't count as organ failure, but leaving him on a wooden post to die, preferably slowly, might count.

To quote what that judge said at the trial, "And what is truth?"

"Waterboarding involves strapping a person down and pouring water over his or her cloth-covered face to create the sensation of drowning."

The sensation of drowning? My understanding, from someone who's undergone waterboarding, is that the lungs fill up with water. That's not the sensation of drowning, it's not simulated drowning - it's drowning. Controlled drowning, perhaps, but there's nothing virtual about it for the victim.

Wow! America, and by extension, the universe?! There's no question that the U.S. will not suffer alone, but the entire universe is a pretty big extension even for the "world's only superpower."

Why bother america, and by extension, the universe is fuckeded PERIOD.

The "waiting period" is all that remains -enjoy.

Waterboard Ashcroft. Really. See how he likes it.

I watched part of the hearings. Ashcroft is such an arrogrant *****. It was also one of the worst analyses and comparative sessions of US involvement in World War II to the present I have ever seen or heard.