damn!

if this actually comes to pass, some of us are going to have to come down off our studied cynicism and get busy.

no more excuses for inaction! not all congresscritters are asbestos-footed freaks impervious to fire! public outrage has a measurable effect!

that funny feeling in my gut might just be optimism---it's been so long, i didn't recognize it at first.

Please note that while no public announcement of impeachment hearings has been issued by the Judiciary Committee, Chairman Conyers has notified Veterans for Peace that they will begin at 10 am on July 25 in the Rayburn Office Building. The National Impeachment Network is organizing a rally a the Rayburn Office Building on the Independence Av. side, to begin at 9 am on July 25. Anyone who can make it should be there. The hearing, of course, will be open to the public.

Dave Lindorff

Will the hearings be open to the public? What about a significant showing at the hearings themselves? I am nowhere near DC but if I were, I'd go.

http://www.healingmagic.org/articles/Narcissism.pdf

There is much to be gained by the hearings to expose and dwell upon the crimes. There is nothing to be gained by a formal Senate trial where the perpetrators are found "not guilty" on all charges by a Senate that, far from being an "impartial" jury, is stacked with enough Republicans to make any conviction numerically impossible. There is even much to be lost if hardheads go through with the trial anyway, lose it (inevitably), and then lose the election too from the backlash of Fox, Limbaugh, Hannity and crowd creating the great American flag-draped sympathy movement for "Righteous Republicans". Nancy Pelosi "gets" this and always has.

re 1:41pm

note how lesser-evilism and defeatism go hand in hand.

cave in now and avoid the rush, eh?

i don't think so, not this time. the rock has been turned over, and all the creepy crawly thingies are going to be exposed for everyone to see, including madame pelosi, her accomplices, and her lame apologists on CD.

"sunlight is the best disinfectant." (forgot the source)

The hearings are open, but space will be limited.

As to the idea that impeachment hearings are a good idea, but that actual impeachment would be bad, I find Daniel David's thinking to be thoroughly undemocratic and a gutless reflection of the pathetic thinking of the Democratic Party leadership.

The majority of Americans know that this administration has abused its power and crapped on the Constitution, and they want something done about it. If the Democrats were to act and actually try to punish the Bush/Cheney administration, they would have the overwhelming gratitude--and the votes--of most sentient and patriotic Americans.

Our country exists as a democracy only because it is founded on the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Rule of Law. As those have been eroded, so has America. It's like dying from a thoudsand cuts. What does it take to understand that our country has received mortal wounds at the hands of this administrtion? At what point in time do we stand up and declare that we will defend our democracy? At what point do we stand up and staunch the bleeding and save our country?

This fight to save our country is not about party politics or who wins the political battle. It is about the life and death of our country. It is a total conceit to support any position that ultimately throws our country "under the bus" of political gamesmanship. There can be NO compromise given or offered that weakens the foundation upon which this country is based. Every compromise is just another wound that evenually will drain the lifeblood out of America. And the wounds are now so severe, that we can see the life of our country flowing out.

I have listened to DD for a long time on many different subjects. He sometimes has added contructively to various discussions, though I generally do not agree with his version of "realistic" reality. His comment above, however, is beyond belief. Our country is dying and he is advocating that we understand the politics involved? Are you nuts?

This is our last stand folks. This is the only fight that counts right now. If we lose this one, we will have no tools left to fight all the other challenges that lay before us. If our government does not stand up for the people. the Constitution, and the Rule of Law at this point in history, the chance may never come again.

So get on the dam* phone and call your congress critters. Toll free: 800-828-0498. And FAX messages are very effective as well. Go to the links Dave gave you and sign the petitions.

A lot can happen between now and November. Pick your battles wisely.

Dave Lindorff,

As soon as you get off your high horse, tell us where the votes to convict in the Senate are going to come from, since they ARE NOT THERE. I like ideals as well as you do, but I don't buy bound-to-lose foolishness. You shouldn't either.

Rebel Farmer puts it well:

"This is our last stand folks. This is the only fight that counts right now. If we lose this one, we will have no tools left to fight all the other challenges that lay before us. If our government does not stand up for the people. the Constitution, and the Rule of Law at this point in history, the chance may never come again."

The only problem is, this is being said about the hopelessly impossible cause of an impeachment---when these stirring words should be applied to the election, where it counts.

Put the proceedings on prime time and vote Bush and Cheney off the island.

@ Rebel,

How could you even claim that your country "exists as a democracy"? What is democratic in your electoral system where electoral college selects president, lack of choices, easily stolen elections, appointed not-elected executive branch, signing statements which nullify laws, pardons for well connected criminals ....

I would say that your country rather exists as moneocracy, where money rules, and nobody cares what demos ( people) wont.

Open hearings, we, Veterans for Peace have priority. We hand delivered the petititions, we met twice with Conyers and Dennis and we WILL be there very, very early. I expect nothing. 9 repugs voted For Impeachment, 10 abstained. Yea: Brady[TX], Gilchrest[MD], Walter Jones[NC], Manzullo[IL], Tim Murphy[PA], Paul[TX], Reichert[WA], Shays[CT] and Mike Turner[OH]. Walter Jones Represents Camp LeJueune.
800-828-0498. call conyers, ask him to schedule IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS. pelosi, too. your reps.
We'll see....

Daniel, you are a fool. Your argue that impeachment proceedings should not even be started because YOU have already counted the votes of the jury (the Senate) who have not even heard the evidence that would be produced at trial. So how does that work exactly?

Essentially we know that crimes have been committed. Kucinich has a list of charges against some of the folks that have committed crimes against our country. He has asked the Judiciary Committee (something like a grand jury) to review those charges to see if there is enough evidence to request a trial. If the Judiciary Committee gets to hear the evidence and votes to bring charges, then impeachment proceedings would move on to a trial in the Senate where evidence would be brought forward like any other trial.

According to your scenerio, the Senate and the American people do not even get to hear the evidence. Nobody gets to actually hear the truth. Because YOU have already decided how the jury will vote BEFORE they have heard the evidence. So YOU have decided that the Rule of Law does not matter. YOU have decided that a known murderer will not be charged and tried, because YOU think that the system can be rigged for a specific outcome. And YOU only care about any of this because it may affect an election outcome and how party members might benefit?

Personally, I want to have the opportunity to hear the evidence and the truth. I want to make up my own mind. I don't even care what the outcome is. I want the process to happen. I want the legal system set up in the Constitution to be enforced.

LET THE TRUTH BE HEARD BY ALL AMERICANS!!!

adnan - I totally agree with you! You're right. What we have left of our country is not the democracy that it should be. That's because of all those "thousand cuts" that have been inflicted since its inception. But the fact of the matter is that democracy does not have a chance if we don't bind up the wounds that it has suffered.

It's like the old saying: If you kill the body, the head dies. Well, if the Constitution dies, the country goes with it. We certainly didn't fix it when it needed repair, and we certainly can't put it back together once it is destroyed.

So, our democracy may be terribly broken, but it ain't dead yet.

Impeachment is good. Indictment is better. 'The Bush Indictment Project' is ongoing. Both Impeachment and Indictment have some drawbacks - for one thing they both give the impression that Bush/Cheyney are the big problem. THERE WOULD BE NO WAR IF THE CONGRESS DID NOT AUTHORIZE AND FINANCE IT. ONLY THE CONGRESS CAN DECLARE WAR.
Anyone who is serious about prosecuting the war criminals should vote for a State Attorney General and County Prosecutor who will bring forth Indictments. It CAN happen, but only if the voters all over the country are smart enough to vote for it.

Just a sidebar question: Will the media be there that day or will they be covering a celebrity's woes?
Seriously, Mr. Lindorff,--if you're still here--what do you expect as far as media coverage?
Thanks.

Rebel,

So you're ticked off. So what? Me too. Not a single Republican in the Senate will vote to convict Bush of anything NO MATTER WHAT evidence is "presented". The whole thing would merely rally the Republican base again (more than guns, more than gays, more than abortion) and they would all be thanking Kucinich and Company for preserving their wars and tax cuts without them ever breaking an electoral sweat. This is the problem and I don't mind being called a fool for insistently pointing it out.

I still say you wrote a good paragraph we should admire as a rallying cry for electing Obama---even if you didn't know for sure why you were writing. It's so good, it's worth repeating, once again:

"This is our last stand folks. This is the only fight that counts right now. If we lose this one, we will have no tools left to fight all the other challenges that lay before us. If our government does not stand up for the people. the Constitution, and the Rule of Law at this point in history, the chance may never come again."

"but the American people will never forgive them or the rest of the Congress if it allows these two men to leave office next January without tar and feathers on their backs and a federal grand jury on their cases."
What are you smokin man, I don't know of any person in my daily life that even knows of an impeachment hearing. If I said "do you recognize the name Dennis Kucinich" I would get a blank look as they mentally go through the rosters of sports teams. The Administrations spin doctors have so successfully confused every issue that the U.S. Public doesn't want to be bothered much less "forgive".

Impeachment might at least keep them so busy that they won't have the time or the guts to start a war with Iran.

What Democratic apologists seem to not understand is even if Bush Co. is not convicted by the Senate (of course, assuming that the House votes for impeachment), the symbolism of the Democrats trying to do what they should have been doing all along by doing what is right would win them greater appreciation among voters than being complicit in a scheme to bilk the country out of hundreds of billions and even trillions of dollars. Unfortunately, the latter has proven to be far truer than the former, since the Republicans and Democrats basically are two sides of the same evil coin.

Barn Burner - Maybe people in your life don't know what's happening, but lots of Americans really do. Over 60% of Americans want to see impeachment hearings on Cheney according to a poll taken about 6 months ago. In the same poll, over 50% wanted to see the same for Bush.

So, don't give up hope. Even though the MSM has tried to keep the public in the dark, they really are starting to slowly wake up. And Bush is now polling at 28%. If the people got to actually hear some truth at an impeachment hearing, guess where that number would go?

Dave Lindorff July 17th, 2008 2:09 pm
I disagree, I have not met any of the public that are pissed off at Bush for crapping on the Constitution and abuse of power-NONE. Americans on the whole do NOT take interest in politics and think that what ever Bush does must be legal as they have been brain washed to think there is some magic mega cop out there that would stop him-plus they don't want to think about it. There are some notable exceptions but most the people I have talked to in the States are pissed-off about high energy and food prices and Bush gets their anger about that but not much else.
Yes, I think these hearings are good and one can hope but from my experience with my fellow Americans-they will change the channel.

On a side note, who the hell are these 28 percenters supporting Bush?

Rebel Farmer I would bet 100 pesos that if energy and food prices drop significantly before the election you will see an huge increase in Bush's popularity ratings. Most the people I talk to in the States are friends of my Son's in their late 30's and early 40's but I read yahoo and other Internet news and see no evidence of the 28% your are talking about. These poll numbers depend on the questions asked.
But hell, I hope your right!

Daniel David wrote:

"I still say you wrote a good paragraph we should admire as a rallying cry for electing Obama—even if you didn't know for sure why you were writing."

Political expediency is not my game. Voting for a party instead of principle got us into this mess in the first place. By not holding politicians accountable for their actions, they continue to work in their own best interest, not the people or the country.

And since you asked, I will absolutely NOT be voting for Obama in November. I really had hoped that I could. But not anymore. He has proven that he cannot even uphold his current oath of office, let alone as POTUS. With his vote for the FISA "fix" he abandoned the 4th amendment and the rule of law. And he is currently working to support the bailout of the Wall Street banksters/gangsters at taxpayers' expense. So, NO, my statement was not a rallying cry for the status quo or for a party or candidate.

If memory serves, impeachment is a political trial, not a criminal procedure. Therefore, the evidence presented is not so much to prove criminality than it is to test the political climate. Or even to establish clear political truth.

Yes, a number of senators will always see this as party war and ever stand by their party. On the other hand, impeachment procedings eventually make their way to barber shop chairs, doughnut shops, and laundromats. Those are places where the poliitcal tide may change and affect predictable Senate votes.

I vividly recall the Watergate hearings when many Republicans put their bravest faces on Nixon's abuses. Yet they knew, despite Nixon having won 49 states only two years prior, that the jig was up. The Watergate hearings effectively changed the climate: a bungled burglary had evolved into a tyrannical power play. The constitution, gentleman's agreement as it was and still remains, was being manhandled in a most ungentlemanly manner. Nixon's abuse did NOT reflect what voters and the elected understood to be the governing contract.

While I personally would have liked to see Bush thrown out of office in 2002 for his warmongering, at this juncture removing him and Cheney is less important than getting the Constitution and Bill of Rights back. Impeachment proceedings are the simplest way (well, sometimes the simple way IS the most miserable way!) to re-assert shared governmental power.

If not, then it is only a matter of time until we do exactly what the king tells us.

Prosecute

"Rep. Kucinich gets to make his case that the president is committing high crimes and misdemeanors and abuses of power and war crimes..." But only so the Congress is fully aware of how many more immunization bills they have to pass before January.

If progressives and liberals had a Rove team working hard, headlines around the world would be this: "Congress Begins Bush Impeachment."

We still don't have a clear idea of what to expect during Conyers hearing for Kucinich (and the World) next Friday.

Friday is usually a day when Congress is not in session. If Congressmembers go home Thursday evening, who will be present with Conyers? Will there be 5-10 House members? 30? Will they do more than make an appearance at the hearing and then leave?

Will the corporate media turn their lights toward Kucinich and Conyers? Will the event last beyond the weekend?

After fighting with Congress over taking members' oath seriously for more than three years, I will make calls ONE MORE TIME next week. (Please don't hector me about doing my part...that dog was put down long ago.)

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/34830

"We're not doing impeachment, but he [Rep. Dennis Kucinich, who introduced 36 articles of impeachment] can talk about it."

This is a "win"? Are you fond of eating crumbs, Mr. Lindorff? This is obviously a way to kill the bill.

"the House just voted 251-166 to send Kucinich's 36 articles of impeachment to the Judiciary Committee"

- to kill the bill. Otherwise, they could have simply voted to impeach Bush.

Remember that bill to impeach Cheney that was sent to the Judiciary Committee back in Nov. 2007, how's that coming? Oh, that's right, it was DOA.

"but the American people will never forgive them or the rest of the Congress if it allows these two men to leave office next January without tar and feathers on their backs and a federal grand jury on their cases."

So how come after 8 years of this, people are still Democratic supporters? How come everyone has forgiven Obama for opposing impeachment? The answer: Americans are easily distracted, and Democrats don't need to be forgiven if people will still vote for them. Even if this wasn't the case, what can we do? "People power" doesn't exist without organization and representation. The Left has neither.

We absolutely need to present the case for impeachment, even if this is not part of formal impeachment hearings. The point is to get this information before the public, who ideally will call for real impeachment procedures. We can't know now what the Republicans or the public in general will do, but we can't worry about this either. If we were always worrying about doing what we know is right, we'd never make any moves at all. This country is supposed to be a democracy and it won't be one unless we act as real patriots, to uphold the basic principle of rule by the people. Yes, the Constitution is imperfect, we don't have a real democracy, the Repubs and Timidocrats won't go with impeachment -- there are lots of such reasons. But let's act according to what we believe and try to get everyone else to see the point. If we don't act according to our principles, what kind of principles do we have?

Referring back to DD's challenge, the point is that not one Senator was ready to vote to convict Nixon when impeachment hearings began in his case either. But as the hearings progressed, and his criminal behavior and abuses of power became evident to all and sundry, even Republicans began to see that he was a lost cost and they decided not to go down with him. With little Bush's popularity ratings in the toilet (lower now than Nixon ever got), it wouldn't take much in the way of disclosures at a public hearing--a few low level WH aides telling the truth about what was going on--for the same thing to happen with regard to Bush. Does anyone think that the Republicans in the Senate would go down with that ship? No way. They's throw Bush and Cheney overboard to the sharks in a split second if they thought he was going to drag them down.

And that's why we need hearings.

Anyone who says otherwise is the kind of person who can never cross the street for fear that there might be a car coming that would run the light. In defense of our Constitution, you have to be willing to trust in the good sense of the American people. I know they don't seem like they have any sometimes, but when it's put in front of them, as it would be with an impeachment hearing, they usually come around.

So no more chickens*** political cowardice. Let's do this thing!

Let the games begin!!

PLEASE????

Dave Lindorff,

You were a better author before you resorted to "chicken___" talk. That's what Republicans do, attempt to bully people with trash talk. You have your opinion, but it's cock-eyed, possibly even a plant from conservatives wishing to see Obama lose. It's otherwise a tad inexplicable from someone who ought to know better.

Republicans are going to hold the line that elects McCain, if they can. That is all they are going to do--in absolute lockstep. And you know it.

This explanation that the Dem leadership is dragging its feet on impeachment because of "complicity" concerns seems unconvincing to me.

Much more likely that they are terrified of getting the "Wellstone" treatment.

Brian Brademeyer,

You might look at the Democrats who were privvy to a briefing on torture and advocated it:

Jane Harman
Nancy Pelosi
Jay Rockefeller
Steny Hoyer

They won't impeach Bush because if Bush goes down, these people go down. The Dems also have given Bush the funds to continue his illegal occupation of Iraq. There are several other examples I can give.

Repeating the argument doesn't make it any more convincing (to me at least).

Bush & Cheney will just attack Iran to cause a distraction for the "sheeple" of the USA..FOX and CNN will cover the invasion 24/7, snd not a peep about impeachment.

Do any of you "lesserevilists" really think that we would even be discussing this under a Bush/Republican-Controlled congress? 'Nuf Said!

The hearings just might be covered BY C-SPAN. Anyone know?

At least the hearings, if they are really held, will be entered into the public record. Whether anyone pays any attention or not (I'm predicting that very few will), posterity will have the chance to learn that not all of us stood by. Some of us, but certainly not enough, still cared about the Constitution. As for the rest of us, I still agree with Mr. Franklin-- they deserve neither safety nor liberty.

DD,

You are SUCH an incredible tool. A twit. A nincompoop.

You just got bitch slapped by the author of the article your commenting... tiredly, tediously... upon.

Just give it up, already. You only dig your hole deeper. You've lost all credibility on this website.

Wake up and get A CLUE. Your act is tiresome. You've played yourself.

Daniel David,

I won't insult you. You get enough of that here, plus you seem to enjoy it. So let me politely ask you a question. You say that Pelosi is right not to pursue a formal impeachment trial. But is this her choice to make? If crimes have been committed by Bush (which I'm sure even you would agree that they have) my understanding is that by her Congressional duty she is legally obligated to pursue impeachment. According to the law, she should have no choice in the matter. By avoiding this constitutional responsibility, it makes her an accessory to those high crimes committed by Bush.

In addition to her legal obligation, every available poll shows that her constituents in San Francisco want her to pursue impeachment. Being their only Representative to Congress, and despite her personal beliefs, what gives her the right to NOT represent those who elected her? Are you opposed to the fundamental aspect of democracy that voters be allowed representation?

Barn Burner : you are right:"but the American people will never forgive them ". Let's say 200 million Americans don't even know that MSM has aided and abetted the trashing of the Constitution by Congress , White House and US Supreme Court . That leaves 100 million who know but may or may not care and are too lazy or stupid to realize that mass boycott of MSM would silence the propoganda machine.

Dave Lindorff's heart is in the right place but he is dead wrong in his appreciation of the collective low pain-threshold of the American people.

I try to ignore Daniel David's comments.

I am reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's Book, Mother Night, where during WW2, an America living in Germany is recruited by the US government as a spy. His cover, becoming a radio figure spewing anti-USA propaganda for the Germans, aka Tokyo Rose. Near the end of the war, a German Nazi reflects that he suspected the American was a spy. But in the end the German concluded that even if that was the case, he helped the German side even more with his anti-USA rants and propaganda.

Anyone claiming that there are reasons not to pursue impeachment have no understanding of justice or history. If Bush is not impeached, history will look back at this period as the dark ages, where there was no justice, reason, or law.

Ignorant people fail to pursue justice, and it will always bite them in the end.

Impeach.

Support third party candidates.

Something has to change.

I think it is VERY, VERY, interesting that "Daniel David" has chosen to make "himself" such a strong presence HERE, on this thread about impeachment when "he" has been so absent of late on CD.

I would like to re-iterate my hope that "DD" IS some sort of paid shill or insider. The alternative, that "he" is a real person who feels the need to twist EVERYTHING into "that's why we should vote Obama" is just too damn sad for me.

I agree with Mr. Lindoff here.

What exactly is there to stop us from just TAKING this as a victory, whatever anyone else thinks?

I'm for Drawing and Quartering myself, but most everyone I know is for Impeachment -once they have it, and the offenses, defined for them- and I live in a No-Stop-Light-Three-Bars Mountain Town.

Don't underestimate people you've never met, and don't listen to what the "Media" tells you about them -go out and get to know them you shy bastards!

Have Fun,

-matti.

Two things are important imo

1. Bush and Cheney are removed from power before more damage is done by them. (for example: war with Iran)

2. Its clear to all that what they did was criminal so that there is no repeat in the future of their policies.

Why not hold impeachment hearings in secret? (But maybe that also is a bad precedent)

Just get them out of power...before they kill more people and destroy more lives...and further weaken America.

I don't care about punishment...they can live their lives in luxury in Dubai and Paraguay for all I care...just get them out of the White House.

Daniel David is a such tool of corruption. Prosecutors issue indictments because a crime has been committed, not because there might or might not be enough jurors to convict.

The House impeaches, only a simple majority is necessary, and the Dems have the majority. Case closed.

Dems' single article accuses Bush of lying about the war, probably the single Bush crime that Dems are not involved in. Let's see how far this goes, I suspect it's just more political theater from corrupt Dems, the usual Dem sham.

Maybe DD just holds a different opinion? Is that bad? If someone disagrees they are a schill or a troll or a plant?
Goodness gracious, lets get a bit of sanity here.

I would like to suggest the following. 1.Impeachment now would make no difference as it wouldn't get started good and they would be out of office anyway.
2. Don't forget you can still impeasch even when someone has left office.
3.Wouldn't it be better to press for the pursuit of war crimes now and follow it up the chain?
4. If anyone here thinks Pelosi or Reid have the guts to impeach, I've got some Texas desert land to sell them.

Let me qualify my opinions with the fact that I believe impeachment now would be mistimed and .

T More,

We are all entitled to our opinions, this much is indeed true. It could be my opinion that the Cheney-Bush junta is the finest Adminitration our country has ever had, but then if I really believed that, I would clearly be suffering from chronic CRIS (Cranial Rectal Insertion Syndrome), now wouldn't I?

So the same holds true for DD. He is tedious, boring, predictable, and cowardly, too, I might add. He was conspicuously absent from threads weeks ago when Obama voted to give cover to the Administration by capitulating on the FISA bill.

As to your "sane" suggestions, I admit that I don't know if assertion #2 is correct or not. My suspicion is that it isn't. How could you impeach someone not in office? You COULD criminally prosecute them... But if it is true, then it contradicts your first assertion.

As to #3, I would submit an Impeachment hearing would be a MUCH easier method of exposing war crimes as it is the constitutionally sancioned remedy for a criminal administration, whereas war crimes tribunals are bound by international law, and therefor much trickier to pursue.

And #4: The entire POINT of Lindorff's article is that this hearing won by Kucinich, Wexler, et al is a win BECAUSE it was attained by running an end-around the Congressional Democratic leadership, and that we as progressives need to keep the full court press on now more than ever.

And I couldn't agree more. Thanks so much for your work, Mr. Lindorff. Damn the torpedoes...