The Worst of the Worst
Jane Mayer's new book reveals details about the Bush administration's torture policy that go far beyond waterboarding
Jane Mayer's new book, The Dark Side, reveals in greater detail the utter depravity of the Bush administration's official policy of torture. Mayer's long investigation makes clear that the tactics employed by the CIA on suspected al-Qaida terrorists do not exist in some grey area protected by the euphemism "enhanced interrogation techniques". They are unquestionably torture. It is all the more shocking then that John McCain, knowing all that he does about torture past and present, would sacrifice his considerable personal credibility and vote to preserve the CIA's ability to torture detainees.
Waterboarding has been the focus of attention since confirmation from the agency's director, Michael Hayden, that it had been used on at least three al-Qaida detainees. The ancient technique that forces water into the lungs of a subject but stops just before he dies had previously been prosecuted by the United States as a war crime but now found its way into the "enhanced interrogation" programme authorised by the justice department and employed by the CIA. Hayden and attorney general Michael Mukasey said waterboarding was not currently being used but categorically did not rule out its use in the future.
That would be troubling enough, but what Mayer's book makes clear is that waterboarding was only a small part of the CIA's torture programme. In fact, even detainees that were subjected to waterboarding did not think it was the worst technique they had to endure. That was reserved for stress positions. These were often employed differently but included being shackled to the ceiling of their cells, forcing all the weight of their body onto their shoulders as they were suspended upright for eight hours. One detainee was locked in a box half his size for hours at a time. Most of them were deprived of sleep and bombarded with loud music and noises for 24 hours.
There has always been a troubling level of indifference to these activities, because these are al-Qaida terrorists responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. Rage and anger is understandable, but I hope people inclined toward this viewpoint appreciate that one of the principle divisions between us and our enemies is that we hold ourselves to a higher standard, we take our humanity more seriously and we intend to live up to our moral obligations. The United States should not torture prisoners in its captivity, no matter how grave their crimes.
Another rationale often used to condone such tactics is that they are needed to get information out of these detainees that could save American lives. It is vital that we are able to use interrogation to uncover information about our terrorist enemies. If that is in fact the objective, I have never been able to understand why that would lead anyone to think torture is the way to go. Torture is a poor instrument to produce reliable information. It is exceptionally good at producing false confessions. Perhaps it is not surprising then to learn that the Bush administration got some of its techniques from a 1957 US military report about Chinese interrogations during the Korean war titled "Communist attempts to elicit false confessions from Air Force prisoners of war."
John McCain knows this. In 2005, he said that he mourned "what we lose when by official policy or by official negligence we allow, confuse or encourage our soldiers to forget ... that which is our greatest strength: that we are different and better than our enemies." He has repeatedly said: "Torture doesn't work." He described waterboarding as, "not a very complicated procedure. It is torture."
Armed with these core beliefs, McCain led the congressional effort to require that the US military only use interrogation techniques included in the US army field manual on interrogation, a public document that has been approved as lawful by numerous authorities. After its passage, McCain said of a recent trip to a US prison in Iraq that an "army general there said that techniques under the army field manual are working and working effectively, and he didn't think they need to do anything else." It seemed, with Americans dying every day during an extremely complex, multi-sided conflict in which good intelligence was vital to saving lives, the field manual was working.
But that was senator McCain. Now he is running for president and things are a little different. In the wake of the reported success of the field manual in Iraq and Hayden's admission, several US senators attempted to force the CIA to follow the same standard as the military and only use techniques in the field manual. Several senators, that is, except John McCain. Even while reiterating his objections to waterboarding, he voted against the bill that narrowly passed but did not survive the president's veto.
If you had been living on another planet for the last six years you might be able to make a convincing case that the CIA needs to have more flexibility than the military during interrogations. But Jane Mayer has just told us again what that flexibility actually means: torture. Of course McCain knows this too. Unfortunately he has more important things to do, like running for president.
Ken Gude is the associate director of the international rights and responsibility programme at the Centre for American Progress in Washington DC.
© Guardian News and Media Limited 2008
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43 Comments so far
Show Allmy turn and a thank you to all those still thinking...
I live in one of the self-proclaimed radical fringe areas, laregly rural but well informed (Amy Goodman etc etc) where people have plenty of cash, time, and visionary ability, we're talking the ultimate capitalist utopia for most here, believe me. A clear majority are anti-war, pro-green, tax resisters etc etc. AND YET: hard to believe but after five years of war, those who get out in the street and remind all about the stupidity and the illegality of the neocons in Iraq, are rarely even thanked for their efforts! Lots of two-fingered peace salutes and honks and smiles yes, as we protest publicly for our friends and neighbors (this area has only a few thousand total population)......but no real adhesion or honors or requests to speak or any notice at all....no requests for editorials by either of our two weeklies, no radio interviews by our local hippy non-profit station....
So for 5 years we protestors are asking ourselves just WHY we see such near-complete apathy....and all we can come up with is that as Poet says it's a "vision collapse....." The radical local majority has given up fighting and holds no faith in political action of any kind. The back-to-the-landers went to the land and disappeared! My neighbors do not even talk about the issues confronting us on these blogs. They allow a half a dozen local muckrakers to do that for them and leave it at that. The dream of helping "save" our "democratic" experiment is completely dead...for most. Given the fact that these people are well versed in so-called "higher" learning, have 5 or 6 decades of experience yet have no interest in helping save even a semblance of national social sanity shows me just how far we have gone. We seem to hear the roar of complete destruction somewhere ahead, a chasm? waterfall? a fire?
Looks like a society welcoming oblivion, with no interest in helping our pitiful species even survive!
...the moralists, here, who live under the Empire's wing...
Thomas More: Don't really have time to do a search of your posts to provide answers to your question. Go to the archives and search your handle and review your past posts with an open mind. Perhaps you can see what I'm talking about. Nothing personal buddy, that's just my take on things.
jakenewton: Too lazy to look it up yourself? After ALL the articles you've read here on CD, you 'have no idea' that most of the people who have gone through the US 'detention' system are innocent? Anyways, here's an article to educate yourself with: http://www.slate.com/id/2136422/
P O E T,
Well said, we have the most mindfulness and proportionally "higher" interests to succeed in re-creating community and propelling the ever growing web of human kindness.
This occurs ( self referentially ) at all of the various levels { per Confucian ideals, always considering another level up to care about }:self,
ancestors & parents ( elderly are key knowledge sources )
family dinners together, w/o tv or other distractions
neigbhhors talking, open, discussing & working together
block parties & village level
communities & cities
state & regional
countries
global
local solar system vicinity
local milky way stars,
milky way & other galaxies
…
Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
McCain - "would sacrifice his considerable personal credibility" Huh? he has that? With whom? He's a drug-addled loose cannon, a traitor of everything fine and noble about America.
Leah 1946 July 15th, 2008 7:43 pm
Most of the people I know think we should never have attacked Iraq, shouldn't be in occupation now. That most Americans are happy about all this or are unaware of it is propaganda.
But Cheney and his boys did a good job getting us in, the Congress we have now and then aren't listening.
Almost all Americans are aware we can't just withdraw our forces rapidly.
But in any case, religion had nothing to do with it. The Evangelicals I know will be quick to tell you that Bush betrayed them too.
I'd suggest you blame the terroists for giving the neocons the excuse they needed, the mesdia for following their orders and Congress for not exercising better oversight. Thats where the blame lies.
elmysterio July 15th, 2008 3:52 pm
Still waiting
Americans have to understand that WE ARE TERRORISTS! It's hard to admit it. But we have commited terrorist acts throughout our history and we don't hold OURSELVES accountable! If we continue to support the same old same old, inevitably we will continue to torture and terrorize others all over the world. It is time, right now, to STOP THE MADNESS and start voting for only alternative party candidates at all levels.
Veracity/Namsate--
Psyops and self-inflicted wounds are merely the means to serve the larger end of unifying vision. Those who make up these myths (in emulation of their diaboical mentor Prof. Leo Strauss of the Univ. of Chicago) neither believe in nor care if their willing and eager coconspirators believe in their myths--so long as the public at large does.
When that faith waivers it is time for some inquisitional style behavior moidification and that does explain a lot of the random violence we see around us constantly. It's aim is to get the rest of us to either cringe in terror or lash out in similar violence necessitating further escalation of Draconian "solutions" on the part of our "minders".
The solution to this dilemma is to grow commnunity and maintain and build friendship/contact/unity among our families, coworkers, and neighbors. Our collective mind and will is greater than their collective mind and will if "we" will but use our minde in a unified manner as "they" do their mind.
jakenewton: The sources do exist. The figures I've heard quoted are that all but a couple of dozen people held at Guantanamo had any honest evidence against them. But you do not need to even believe this at all. At one point there were approximately 750 inmates at Guantanamo. More than 500 have already been released. Most had been detained for over 4 years. The excuse was that they were no longer of any intelligence value or that they were no longer a 'threat'.
So the US government at least agrees that they held over 2/3 of these people at your expense needlessly. That they were innocent of any crime. They were all tortured nonetheless and I'm sure the confessions extracted as a result contributed to their continued stay at Guantanamo.
(The fact that they were tortured was witnessed by the FBI, again not what I'd call a hot-bed of bleeding hearts, they complained and were duly nixed from the 'interrogations' after that. This came out in congressional hearings last year.)
Now this is what we can prove using the NeoCon's own government, their pretty boy in the whitehouse, and their highly flawed man running the attorney general's office. And you STILL get only a 33% retention rate???? What?!
Factor in all the caveats above and numbers like 'only a few dozen' become not only plausible, but likely.
P O E T,
I agree, and thank you --
although it neither mere MYTH nor run=of-the-mill political LYING
|______________ I T S ______________|
|______ P _ S _ Y _ O _ P _ S ______|It's the wickedest connivance of severe mental twisting massive cognitive dissonance, enhanced and manipulated F_E_A_R,
H_A_T_E
R_E_S_I_G_N_A_T_I_O_N,
S_C_A_R_C_I_T_Y. and
IDIOTIC APPEAL TO _ P A T R I O T I S M _,
|___BECAUSE ___ W E ___ A T T A C K E D___|
|___________O U R S E L V E S ___________|
Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
A "terrorist" chops of the head of a captive and people in the USA see this as evil....as they/we should. The USA bombs Iraq...Afghanistan and thousands die, many blown to bits literally and many, if not most Americans see this as part of war....not something evil. Saddam was deemed evil cause of aprox 300,000 of his people he had killed. The fact that the USA & the world supplied Saddam with the weapons he used (including mustard gas), knowing what he planned to do with the weapons....wasn't deemed evil. GW delares war on Iraq, a weak country that never had a part in harming the USA, hundreds of thousands are maimed & killed and more than 4000 American military is killed and this is not seen by most Americans as evil. Bush had to lie hundreds of times to get us in Iraq and still most Americans do not see this as evil. What is the difference between what Saddam did and GW is doing? What is the difference between GW & Saddam except one is dead the other isn't and one claimed to be an Islamic and the other a Christian?
Where are Bill Moyers and Professor Campbell when we need them to discuss "the power of myth" gripping us all.
Al Quaeda (as a terrorist network with thousands upon thousands of "sleeper cells" awaiting to strike) is a myth .
that serves the purposes of various multinational corporations and coniving politicians (Blair and Bush chiefly and the neocon ideologues more generally).
Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were a created myth that served the purposes of various multinational corporations
and coniving politicians (Blair and Bush chiefly and the neocon ideologues more generally).
Most if not all of the captives in Gitmo and the rest of the American Gulag of torture prisons were captured as a result of the economic stumulus program of rewarding collaborators who for the sake of lotsa lotsa money were willing to turn in all those they hated or with whom they politically disagreed.
There is no terrorist threat and even most of the totalitarian mischief engaged in by Blair, Bush, and the European Union are less of a danger than an even greater threat.
That even greater threat is the total loss of overall vision sufficient to inspire and unify our peoples. The visions of laize faire capitalism vs international socialism do not capture either the imaginations or yearnings of the greater masses of people.
Ditto for the notions of absolute right fighting absoute evil offered as an excuse to "take off the gloves" and channel the inner nazi of everyone from the military to political establishment.
All that is left to take its place is the vision of our fears--both in the US/Britain and in the Mid-East with Asia and Latin America not very far behind. That lack of contructive and unifying vision is the great moral vacuum needing to be filled.
"Bullshit. The vast majority of people that have gone through the US torture system were innocent of ANYTHING except being in the wrong place at the wrong time."
Source. Please.
Thomas More: Our society....many evangelical Christians....forgot the words of their diety when it came to invading Iraq and killing thousands of innocent civilians. I guess Jesus' Sermon On The Mount only counts in church.... Millions of Americans believe torture is okay and go along with it. Our society has rules for others that we cannot live up to ourselves....So YES! We have a great deal of evil that we cherish and glorify in our society. It starts at the top and rolls on down.
First of all, everything Rich M says in the first comment and then, re the statement "The United States should not torture prisoners in its captivity, no matter how grave their crimes," and none of the detaines has even been tried, let along found guilty of a crime, grave or otherwise.
Torture is always wrong and even Bu$h the inferior and Shotgun Dick know it. That is why they hide and deny that they are torturing and what the exact procedures are. Torture has also been completely ineffective in yielding any results that can be remotely termed as positive because ANY POLITICAL advantage is completely irresistible to these immoral bastards.
Secrets no mater how vital mean nothing. The outing of Plame was the classic example of blowing a corporate cover that cost millions to set up and risking the safety of every one who ever talked to Plame, her cover company or any of her other associates.
For f**ks sake - can we all stop using the Bush-frames already?
There is no such thing as "waterboarding." It's WATER TORTURE. You want more of We The People to be outraged? WATER TORTURE. You want them to remain half-awake? Waterboarding, which falls in between snowboarding and wakeboarding.
The USA is NOT in a state of war, officially or Constitutionally, with any nation on Earth. You want more of We The People outraged? The USA is currently illegally occupying Iraq, and sort of/kind of illegally occupying Afghanistan. You want them to remain disengaged? Say war.
elmysterio July 15th, 2008 3:52 pm
I'm wondering what those would be? Could you give me an example of wicked and un-empathetic posts?
Seriously, nothing intended but a request for your opinion.
You'd also have to define which definition or which connotation of "American Exceptionalism" you mean?
terremar July 15th, 2008 5:35 pm
poll's and questionaires are common liars I believe. I do think our culture is full of basically good people. Sometimes I use society when I actually mean culture. I hope we are better.
DUBET: I have felt the same way about those held in captivity given the likely perpetrators of the 911 crime.
I began reading Carlos Casteneda's books in college. One thing that stood out was this idea of doing good deeds because they enter into something akin to a spiritual bank account, what he termed "a payment to the spirit of mankind." The reverse of this operates in torture... those who survive would have been left with an imprint of the gravest depravity that flesh may be heir to. If only those on the "giving" end, many who purport to be religious (often Christian) recognized TRULY the metaphysical LAW related by the Master teacher Christ as "Whatsoever you do unto the least of these... you do unto me."
Again, this reflects the inviolate law of karma. Perhaps it seems cruel but I seek the evidence of this justice in our world. So when I hear about villages bombed I wonder if the present day citizens were themselves the ones who perpetrated crimes against their fellow citizens. This spiral must end, and that is why the greatest spiritual masters all teach forgiveness, and versions of turning the other cheek. Admittedly, the grotesque sum of sins, some so senseless, committed by this administration and those it protects, tests the capacity of anyone with a sense of justice, intelligence and compassion. However, I do not believe the Divine laws are ever truly mocked. The difficulty comes in recognizing they do not produce viable results on OUR mortal time line. This is where the belief in reincarnation proves helpful.
I for one would love to believe the notion that we are fundmentally a society of good people who hold a high moral standard for ourselves, and certainly there are many people in this country who are exceptionally moral and ethical. Unfortunately they aren't in control of our federal government. But you know, I hear far too many people "on the street" expressing ignorant and violent views. I was amazed to read a poll today on aol that asked two questions: 1) What do you think of the way the US handled suspected terrorists at Guantanamo? The majority, 58% said they "Approve" of how they were handled. 2) Do you think the US tortured any suspects at Guantanamo? The great majority, 71% said "Yes". Statistics can be interpreted in many different ways, but there seem to be a lot of people out there who think torture is just fine. And what's worse, this was attached to a piece about the 15 year old Canadian who was videotaped crying and begging for help at Guantanamo. I want to be hopeful about the future of mankind, but the "dark side" has been gaining a lot of ground. As one poster is fond of repeating "Be the change you want to see". I try to keep this in mind and it helps. Peace
Humans! Lowest form of pond scum on earth. Kill them! Kill 'em all!
The Worst of the Worst
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - He came into office touted as America's first "MBA president," steeped in deregulatory zeal and determined to run the economy like a business."
...and we all know how George W. Bush always ran his businesses - into the ground...
I consider this fake election torture.
"There has always been a troubling level of indifference to these activities, because these are al-Qaida terrorists responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. Rage and anger is understandable, but I hope people inclined toward this viewpoint appreciate that one of the principle divisions between us and our enemies is that we hold ourselves to a higher standard, we take our humanity more seriously and we intend to live up to our moral obligations."
We never held ourselves to a "higher standard" and "Al Quaida" is a catch-all term for a mythical boogieman. We demonstrate our love for humanity by conquering the world and dropping bombs on those who oppose us.
"because these are al-Qaida terrorists responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans"
Bullshit. The vast majority of people that have gone through the US torture system were innocent of ANYTHING except being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Lighten up DogLeg.
Thomas More Said: "I certainly deny deep wickedness in our society."
I say bullshit. You only have to listen to the likes of Ariel_Sharon and others posting her with their American Exceptionalism line of thinking. Hell Thomas, I've seen you make many posts that I would describe as wicked and un-empathetic.
Padraig Pearse July 15th, 2008 1:05 pm
"You mean to say that prior to the Bush Administration, we never summarily executed wounded enemy soldiers (Oh, excuuuuse me; "enemy combatants") in the field, tortured captives in places like Nicaragua, Guatemala, or El Salvidor, or encouraged the participation of interrogated POW's by tossing a few recalcitrant ones out of helicopters in Viet Nam?"
Yes I know one of those things you mentioned is true, but not the rest. Though that one thing I know has happened in every war on record I believe. When and where did you witness these things? Who was involved?
karlof1 July 15th, 2008 1:17 pm
Gosh, I've been out and about quite a bit lately and conversing too, I'd have to say that you are hanging around the wrong people. I don't find the ignorance you do. Not that there aren't some like that. I'm not speaking in absolutes of course. But about 80% or so are pretty good folks.
RichM July 15th, 2008 1:56 pm
"It's not simply a matter of the individuals in Congress, despicable though most of them are."
Ah-ha, you musdt know some Congressmen or
Senators!
"The US today is a wicked society because its government is deeply corrupt & dishonest; & because in the big picture, the society has become little more than a huge war machine. Its political & media institutions are corrupt to the core. Its economy is wasteful & disrespectful of the environment."
"This is what I'm talking about by using the appellation "wicked."
You are exactly correct about the Nazi's and about the cause. Hitler was as much the Allies from WW1's fault as the German people.
But we do disagree on some fundamental points. Our governmental leadership is corrupt, but many GS folks are not. No disagreement about our political machinery and MSM, though there are exceptions. We are not by any means nothing but a big war machine society. Though we spend a silly amount of money on the military, most wasted and more than any other country, its still less than 10% of our economy. Far less.
I fully believe our economy is wasteful and we need to respect the enviornment a lot better. But we will have to reach a balance.
I firmly believe that the American people and our culture are a lot better than you think thry are. Thats why I don't believe we are wicked and I hope you are wrong and I am right.
Think what our culture has produced in the last 40 years, the changes...its astounding. No other culture in the world could accomplish these things.
But you are right about our politicians and about our business leaders. There we need to make a few changes. Got an axe and block on you?
physicscitizen July 15th, 2008 3:05 pm
It all comes down to who, when and what form you ask the question in. Thats true.
But push to shove, you'd not get that amount of approval in real life.
That said...."Fundamentally there is a complete assumption that anyone who is being held is automatically guilty. Either we no longer teach our children about the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty by a jury of one's peers' or that lesson simply doesn't stick."
Unfortunately I believe you are correct here and its our fault for allowing what passes for teaching in our schools and universities.
I do believe the average American citizen is nowhere near as ignorant nor as stupid as protrayed. They simply don't have the luxury of time.
Pax
when the dickster proclaimed a willingness to move to the "dark side" in the new war on terror, he was giving official sanction to what had always been, at least covertly, "on the table". when there was no immediate follow-up demand to explain what this meant, it was as if our government was handed a nice gift wrapped permission slip to do whatever the hell they wanted. they had succeeded in "innoculating" themselves through a vague admission, justified by the oldest tactic in the book - fear mongering.
I strongly suggest that certain people here review their diction, their conceptual abilities and their pretensions to having insight as to what constitutes "culture" vis a vis "society" in relation to the "economic structure" of a "political state."
Call me back after about 5 years of study and actual research culminating in an advanced degree from a recognized college or university.
No wonder people scoff at the net.
If you ask the following question in any American poll:
"Is torture justified in the war on terror?" You will get about a 30% positive response. If you substitute the innocuous-sounding 'enhanced interrogation techniques', even today, that percentage will go up to something like 40%.
This fits my definition of a 'wicked' citizenry.
Fundamentally there is a complete assumption that anyone who is being held is automatically guilty. Either we no longer teach our children about the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty by a jury of one's peers' or that lesson simply doesn't stick.
I cannot tell you the number of times I have patiently won arguments using this principle but actually I know I haven't really won because the person in question still believes they are guilty. Even after they are released, even after they are exhonerated.
all of this activity is related to 911? I don't believe these inmates were responsible for that, so I don't know why they're being held at all (other than for appearances), much less tortured...to learn what? In my opinion, these inmates are patsies...the guys that are responsible for those 'deaths of thousands of Americans' are sitting in the Oval office laughing about the babes they hustled while getting drunk after their latest golf match...let these people go home to their loved ones...
The abuse of someone you have under your total control is torture.
Any definition of torture that excludes, either explicitly or implicitly, that premise is bullshit on a waffle.
Thomas More (12:53) - Let me explain what I mean. In Nazi Germany, which we can agree was a "wicked" society in many ways, it is hardly the case that all the citizens were individually wicked. Indeed, most of them were not. Many or most were simply patriotic, or frightened. And Germans had ample reason at that time to feel that they'd been treated unjustly by the Allied powers (by the Treaty of Versailles). For many Germans, their willingness to defend their country from what they believed were serious threats was very justifiable -- even admirable. It was not obvious to most ordinary Germans at the outbreak of WWII that their own country was the aggressor, any more than it's obvious to Americans today that their own country is the aggressor.
So, to refer to Nazi Germany as a "wicked" society (not a particularly controversial opinion) is no reflection on the ordinary citizens. In fact, even if you looked at the influential people behind Hitler -- say, the financiers & industrialists -- many or most of them were not "wicked" in their personal lives. Most were "good family men" who loved their children and went to church. They weren't sadists or murderers, as individuals.
The US today is a wicked society because its government is deeply corrupt & dishonest; & because in the big picture, the society has become little more than a huge war machine. Its political & media institutions are corrupt to the core. Its economy is wasteful & disrespectful of the environment.
This is what I'm talking about by using the appellation "wicked."
Torture is torture no matter how you examine it. McCain is a pandering liar and unworthy of the highest office in the land. John McCain has sold his soul to become that which he is ill–suited to do and I certainly hope he does not become president.
Thomas More (12:53) - I'm not "confusing politicians with citizens." You're not understanding me. I'm not describing the qualities of the citizenry; I'm talking about qualities of the social structure. I'm not blaming the bulk of citizens (who are actually the "victims" of this wickedness) at all.
On the other hand, it's also more complex than just "the politicians." The structure of the society determines who can be selected as politicians. It's not simply a matter of the individuals in Congress, despicable though most of them are.
Padraig (1:05) - I don't know if you're addressing me, but I do NOT mean to say (nor did I in any way imply) that any of this stuff is new with the Bush admin.
Torture is a form of terrorism. There's no way they would use it just to extract information from the captive. That does not work, as has been known for centuries. The information is not reliable and the torturee will lie to have it stop. The Bush people use torture as a message to the Muslim world that if they don't buckle under, the torture will continue. This is terrorism aimed at whole populations in Bush's jihad against the Muslim world. I hope to read Jane Mayer's book and expect this might be discussed in it.
Padraig: Forceful writing and good economy of words. I feel exactly the same way and My Lai is the perfect example.
Thomas More: I like to think our citizens are better than our politicians. Unfortunately, most Americans--mostly on the right--are alarmingly ill-informed or downright stupid. And to quote the profound Forrest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does."
I propose that Mr More get out and converse with his fellow citizens to learn where they stand concerning torture and war for oil, etc. What he will find will shock him, if what I've encountered can be considered the norm. What I found proves how well, complete, and effective the Indoctrination and Propaganda Systems are. You cannot easilly rid the deeply entrenched ignorance and American Exceptionalism from the Indoctrinated Majority. Observed behavior trumps all and proves the "deep wickedness of our society," for if we were as morally upstanding as Mr More suggests, Congress would have Impeached, Convicted, and expelled from office because guilty the vast majority of the Bush Administration because of the intense pressure caused by the many massive, nationwide protests.
"- Bullshit. We do not "hold ourselves to higher moral standards" than Al-Qaida. We don't "take our humanity more seriously," nor do we "intend to live up to our moral obligations." It's precisely this kind of denial of the deep wickedness of our society, that lets our government get away with torture in the first place."
You mean to say that prior to the Bush Administration, we never summarily executed wounded enemy soldiers (Oh, excuuuuse me; "enemy combatants") in the field, tortured captives in places like Nicaragua, Guatemala, or El Salvidor, or encouraged the participation of interrogated POW's by tossing a few recalcitrant ones out of helicopters in Viet Nam?
Peoples who "take their humanity more seriously" don't run terror academies like the School of the Americas ("Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation"), enthusiastically support animalistically repressive militaristic countries like Israel, proudly lead the world in arms exports and imprisoning their own citizens, or for that matter destroy, invade, and occupy other countries without provocation.
"It's precisely this kind of denial of the deep wickedness of our society"
I certainly deny deep wickedness in our society.
Don't confuse politicians with our citizens. That is the intent of the majority of our citizens old and new.
I guess lesser evilists would say that if you torture a helpless prisoner, but you do it with a pleasant demeanor & a polite smile, that it is not quite as bad as if you do it with a mean-looking scowl.
In other words, Democratic torture would be less evil than Republican torture. (Right, boys and girls?)
Ironically, though this article tries to sound "anti-torture," it's so saturated with the implicit assumptions of American exceptionalism that it unintentionally shows us how we got where we are today. For example, check out this paragraph:
"...There has always been a troubling level of indifference to these activities, because these are al-Qaida terrorists responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. Rage and anger is understandable, but I hope people inclined toward this viewpoint appreciate that one of the principle divisions between us and our enemies is that we hold ourselves to a higher standard, we take our humanity more seriously and we intend to live up to our moral obligations. The United States should not torture prisoners in its captivity, no matter how grave their crimes...""
- Bullshit. We do not "hold ourselves to higher moral standards" than Al-Qaida. We don't "take our humanity more seriously," nor do we "intend to live up to our moral obligations." It's precisely this kind of denial of the deep wickedness of our society, that lets our government get away with torture in the first place.