Oh, Mister Robert, what would the world be like if we all awoke to discover that there were no enemies but only people?

What you mean by this, Robert, is that europe has a "duty" to make the US as pro-arab as the EU is.

I wouldn't call that a "duty".

No Ariel, just not quite as pro-Israel as the US currently is.

First, I'd appreciate it if Europe would educate America about the nature of WAR ... since we seem to be plagued by boomers who grew up (as I did) watching courageous WWII war movies on TV along with glamorous spies and derring do ... with an unhealthy mix of Superman and Perry Mason ... resulting in a "moral certainty" wholly without a foundation in reality.

I recall stories of the American troops in England -- astonishing for their robust health when England had been rationing for years. Yes, Americans fought and died but they never lost that safe "home" to which they intended to return. That well-fed, safe home that the Brits, the French, the Dutch, the Russians, the Chinese, etc.... well, everyone else lost for a period anyway... if not physically, mentally, that certainty.

While he is right that the US could learn a lot from Europe about war and ME politics, we do have a number of institutions and individuals in this country who fully understand the entire situation in an unbiased and apolitical way. The problem is that our government thinks they know it all and don't ever bother to seek advise or help.

To teach, one first needs a student who is willing to learn

Rats Samski! I was going to say something like that!

So many Americans actually strive to achieve ignorance. You cannot win friends or get laid in the USA without demonstrating an amazing lack of curiosity and a passionate desire to remain uninformed.

Many other Americans do not feel this way, of course, but they do not breed nearly as successfully.

Ariel_Sharon: Wow, you really are an ignorant asshole aren't you? I've come to the conclusion, after reading many of your posts, that you really have no idea what you're talking about and are living in some sort of fantasy land, where the Jews are threatened with extinction and the Arabs are nothing but murderous savages. I highly recommend that you leave your bubble and go see the world for yourself. Asshole.

Peacefreak,

You nailed it!

Susanparker,

I'm a "baby boomer," too. I recall stories that my mother told of her experiences in London during WWII, as a member of the U.S. Armed Forces, and her interpretation of the experience of being chased by a German "buzz bomb." Remember, London was reduced to rubble by the German Luftwaffe.

Perhaps you would care to comment on that selfishness and insularity of the American people?

Or is it that you're just another insensitive, boorish ignoramus on the net spouting your particular mental blindness from not eating enough of the carrot termed "enlightenment?"

In other words, when an individual of limited intellectual capacity begins to denigrate the culture and the political state of an ally through two of the worlds most horrendous episodes of "mans inhumanity to man" with a superficial interpretation of morality, perhaps that individual should start looking at itself before it runs into something called a mental wall.
Trust me, when you run into that mental wall, you will discover your humility.

In the first place I sure don't think I'd want lessons on how to handle the mideast from France or England. Their records aren't too good there. Who in Europe doeshe mean? No one that I can see.

To teach, first someone would have to know something.

"physicscitizen July 15th, 2008 3:37 pm"

We are just mortal's. Poor old Americans. But we are trying.

susanparker July 15th, 2008 1:31 pm

I have no idea what that was supposed to mean? Are you suggesting Americans should feel ashamed because our country wasn't invaded?

By the way, a little civility wouldn't go amiss here.

"Europe Has a Duty to Educate the US About Middle East".

Educate whom, exactly? The monkey who cannot even string two sentences together (let alone his shoes)?

Actually I was thinking of "America's" extreme impatience wrt Iran ... and our recentsaber-rattling wrt Korea and anyone else including Saddam Hussein... and the American people's acceptance of this behavior and the continuing civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Like Chris Hitchens' recent experience of waterboarding ... it's easy to form an "impression" or opinion of what is going on that is worlds away from the reality. Much as the Neocons apparently believed the rosy predictions that the Iraqis would be grateful and welcoming when we liberated them from Saddam. From what I gather, not all those we saved in what was Yugoslavian remember it as "good job, well done."

I think Americans think they "know" what war is like ... but aside from the fact most of those who fought in extended deployments were men, those who fought in WWII are dying off rapidly... Vietnam was hellish, but usually in 2 year shifts, irrc -- and again, home was pristine.

I'm not saying anyone should feel guilty about anything ... but the reality of ongoing jeopardy for years, for not just oneself but also everything one holds dear is very different.

Many of our personnel in Iraqi have suffered through unprecedented repeated extended deployments -- but their home awaits them ... and much of the nation is oblivious to the sacrifices that they and their families have made for this god-forsaken occupation, except to pay it lip-service.

I have heard too many Americans enthralled by the WWII America Saved The World stories, oblivious to the losses of the Russians and the Germans and the rebuilding of society after devastation. America, in contrast, thrived and boomed in the post-war period.

I think our optimism and enthusiasm wrt the utility of warfare is bred of our inexperience with its true costs.

What's up lately with so many posters commenting on two, three and four persons posts?? That's ridiculous, leave people alone unless they are messing with you, if they want to rant, guess what? They can. If they are angry and say something another feels offensive, guess what? They can. A personal attack is one thing, which I've noticed is becoming the norm on CD, you all better remember why we come here and many of us it's to vent, others have great info, others are asses and have nothing to say except to denigrate another. Hope it makes those certain people, I'm sure they're aware of whom they are, feel incredibly superior because all it looks like is that you all a crew of pompous, self rightous miserable snarky do littles.

"I don't think they're going to listen, I mutter"

Sure the Americans are going to listen to the Europeans. They have to, because Americans do not think for themselves. They let everyone else think issues through, then Americans adopt the exact opposite conclusion. This is how Americans create external enemies. This is how Americans catalyze the competitive spirit among their rabble class and suppress the cooperative spirit. What, you thought the empire magically appeared out of nowhere? It was cultivated very deliberately in this way.

Americans and Europeans should listen to the rest of the world. Stop killing people of color for their resources. Thats what its been about all along.

susanparker July 15th, 2008 4:31 pm

Thanks, I see what you were trying to say.

Turce July 15th, 2008 4:43 pm

I know I commonly comment on two or three posts at a time, though its usually to someone thats made a comment to me. I don't feel that I'm what you described....but are you referring to me?

Being rude or interferring with people is not something I'd care to do.

WRT Iraq, I have almost never heard anyone mention lingering Iraqi memories of the Highway of Death (where we mowed down the retreating Iraqi army) or the prior horror of the Iran-Iraq war.

=========================================================
from Global Security:
>>> Casualty figures are highly uncertain, though estimates suggest more than one and a half million war and war-related casualties -- perhaps as many as a million people died, many more were wounded, and millions were made refugees. Iran acknowledged that nearly 300,000 people died in the war; estimates of the Iraqi dead range from 160,000 to 240,000. Iraq suffered an estimated 375,000 casualties, the equivalent of 5.6 million for a population the size of the United States. Another 60,000 were taken prisoner by the Iranians. Iran's losses may have included more than 1 million people killed or maimed.

Without diminishing the horror of either war, Iranian losses in the eight-year Iran-Iraq war appear modest compared with those of the European contestants in the four years of World War I, shedding some light on the limits of the Iranian tolerance for martyrdom. The war claimed at least 300,000 Iranian lives and injured more than 500,000, out of a total population which by the war's end was nearly 60 million. During the Great War, German losses were over 1,700,000 killed and over 4,200,000 wounded [out of a total population of over 65 million]. Germany's losses, relative to total national population, were at least five times higher than Iran. France suffered over 1,300,000 deaths and over 4,200,000 wounded. The percentages of pre-war population killed or wounded were 9% of Germany, 11% of France, and 8% of Great Britain. <<<
=========================================================

It is also almost never mentioned that Saddam released his army from any obligation to fight the advancing American army 2003.

=========================================================

Most people seem to think that people learn from the consequences of their acts ... no consequennce, little learning.

=========================================================

Wikipedia page for WWII deaths (military, civilian, genocide by country)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wwii_casualties

more striking when considering WWII's proximity to WWI.

Whatfools said it all - there are really no bad guys, just people.

Having been in Damascus earlier this year, I can vouch that there are many good people there - and the usual assortment of other types. Like anywhere humans congregate.

Sadly many suffering Iraqi refugees as well!!!

Americans are infants in the middle east, constantly shocked to discover that while we're playing checkers, they are playing chess... multiple simulataneous games.

We want everyone to sign on the dotted line, agree to get "bought" and then are shocked when our "negotiated settlements" are never quite realized or ratified or delivered on ... We really want to believe in SYMBOLIC acts of GOOD FAITH and FRIENDSHIP... when, as far as I can tell, much of it is theatre.

I vaguely recall an article of a few years ago about how the Saudis really resented our calls for democratization .... seems that democratic processes were really getting in the way of getting anything done in a culture with strict hierarchies, all of whom expected to be consulted and to have input on all decisions... the law making process with its bills, proposals, arguments and votes simply impeded the long-standing processes that led to consensus ... unable to do away with the "old way", the "new way" was redundant and often counterproductive, irrc.

This article assumes that the people of the USA are ignorant of the world outside the USA by accident.

Forget foreigners and foreign threats, a well informed US public is the single biggest threat to the USA war machine.

PHYSICS CITIZEN: Interesting post.

SUSAN PARKER: Excellent post (1:31) on the subject of (moral) certainty. In your last post you lend credence to the concept of "democratization" of Iraq. Don't you think that was just a theoretical fig leaf placed over the true motive, "free" trade, a/k/a disaster capitalism unmasked?

those with an interest in the rites of pillaging and plundering for profit need to find cover or "justification" for their predatory programs, so they dress these agendas up by hiring their right wing think tankers who are given ample funds to publish their opinions (usually in powerful, respected periodicals) and make them appear JUST and HIGH-minded, etc.

As has been stated in this forum, the idea of exporting democracy to Iraq can only be seen as dark comedy, for it's certainly been sent OUT of this land.

I know its a novel concept and all but perhaps the peoples of the Middle East can educate us directly Mr. Fisk on their own lives if we would only listen? You used to be one of my favorite writers but lately you seem to have lost your way. Best to hear directly from the horses mouth you know. I agree with those that pointed out that it was Europe that colonized and made a mess of the Middle East to begin with so listening to the Euros is probably not a good strategy.

Actually my greatest recent revelation has been the degree that American policy CREATED and has maintained the "sectarian violence" in Iraq.

The delay of elections in June 2004 when Bremmer skedaddled, the certification of the (boycotted by 90+% of all Sunni) elections, the "accomodations" created to insert Sunni "inclusion", the changing of the rules when the Constitutional Congress declared itself deadlocked to "permit" (force through) national ratification (after the constitution framers were unable to agree on the same "crucial" issues we continue to berate the now-almost-4-year old "democracy" from being able to "settle") ...

The Iraqis declared there would be no civil war -- the Sunni and Shiia populations were so integrated, so intermarried -- not gonna happen.

The two worst decisions -- disbanding the army and debaathification -- have never been undone, most notably the latter.

I am hoping that the national parliamentary election NEXT YEAR (coupled with the long-delayed, overdue provincial elections THIS OCTOBER) may permit some fresh-air on the, imho, morally responsible gridlock and delay, that currently holds the "government" in check.

It's gonna be a bumpy ride... and there are self-interested parties swaming like the vultures they are. The Iraqi "elections" -- travesties to the ideal that they were -- are the only accomplishment we may be able to take with us. It's been a disaster.

Democracy has many forms and easily devolves into tyranny by the majority .. I will still champion its cause in the face of is alternatives.

Monday through Friday, Informed Comment by Juan Cole is it for daily ME briefings.

If Syria wants their Point of View disseminated, a viable English language web-sight, creative and informing with interacitive threading might be useful.

Peace In Persia.

i am glad it wasn't Robert Fisk who said that ...

it is the Europeans who are responsible for the mis-shape of the "Middle East" today ... drawing lines on the map in their arrogance ...

no it is the responsibility of Robert Fisk and the other real people who have lived there to educate the rest of the world ... and that is what they have been doing with their books ... more people need to read their books ...

it may seem hopeless, but the solution really is out there and in the process of evolution just now ...

I think it's really clear what Susan is saying.

We in America look at war as a video game, an entertainment, a form of Olympics, complete with opening fireworks over the hosting country. (From Robert Scheer).

We don't go without food, or water, or electricity. We don't have our children blown up, our houses destroyed, our neighborhoods blockcaded. We can travel without soldiers demanding our papers. (Although that is changing. But at least they demand our papers in the language that we speak). We don't have to worry that our doors will be kicked in at 3am, with the men being hauled off to prison and the women and children traumatized, or killed.

We don't have 12,000,000 of our citizens dead, with 48,000,000 millions driven from their homes (based on an Iraq population of 25,000,000 and an American population of 300,000,000).

We had no civilians dead in WW1 or WW2. So, no, we don't have the experience with war that the Iraqis, or the Afghans, or the Russians, or the Germans, or the English, or the Vietnamese, or the Salvadoreans, or any of the other multitudes of peoples on this planet.

All we have is a false flag operation on one day, which generated the self-righteous belief that America can stomp around the globe, killing millions in revenge.

Sorry, I don't agree.

Walid Moallem basic premise is sound, but forgets an ongoing facet of American history: America would rather by their own mistakes, thank you very much. This manifested itself to deadly effect during WW1, when American commanders used tactics from 1914 initially and scads of their enlisted men were mowed down by German machine guns (this is a prime example). Only after that did American commanders re-examine their approach.
This had been a traditional American strength, learning quickly from prior errors and adjusting. Under the Bush crime family's reign, this strength has ridiculed and savaged. Moallem would be well advised to wait until a new administration comes in.

After WW2 I looked to the UNO as the beginning of a peaceful world. I was young and naive, true. Gradually, as I broadened my education at a few radical educational institutions of higher learning and became aware of the complexity of the big world out there, including the complexity of human relations it became apparent that the simple answers were the toughest and most uncomfortable answers. Peace is hard work!
Pogo said it (so did the child in "Lord of The Flies") "We have met the enemy and it is US!"
War is drama. Focus on the 'enemy' and we can ignore our own shortcomings.
Having been involved with the civil rights movement before there was a Civil Rights Movement I have observed 60 years of very slow progress, but progress, nonetheless. First comes the ideal we work toward.
Idealists are realists. If we can market the concept of Partnerships rather than Domination - change the media language....
Anyway - keep on sharing information and views - but sharing, not competing. Allow the ranters to vent, and be supportive of those who are contributing useful info. There, grandma has had her say for today.
I've been reading these comments for almost a year before getting sucked in, at last. But there's a load of firewood in my driveway that needs piling into the woodshed right now. Progress!!!

Democracy doesn't make sense. WMD doesn't make sense.
But somehow Bush's War on Terror still has legs. History will judge it as the most ever successful mass-manipulation through fear.
What DOES make sense is having shares in a factory which makes bombs, mostly in America and UK.
Your customers will behave atrociously once they buy them, doesn't matter who they are.
But you can put up with the hypocrisy as you head out (frequently these days) to bank the cheques. Tons more to come.
Kilotons.

************************************************************

This is what "civilised" nations did to as city with no military profile.

Read Slaughterhouse 5

The bombing of Dresden by the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and United States Army Air Force (USAAF) between February 13 and February 15, 1945, 12 weeks before the surrender of the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) of Nazi Germany, remains one of the most controversial Allied actions of the Second World War. The raids saw 1,300 heavy bombers drop over 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices in four raids, destroying 13 square miles (34 km²) of the city, the baroque capital of the German state of Saxony, and causing a firestorm that consumed the city centre.[2] Estimates of civilian casualties vary greatly, but recent publications place the figure between 24,000 and 40,000.[3]

What a joke.

Mullem would do well to study European history. As if a fool can´t figure out the continuously ongoing French/German games of hovering in the wings waiting to snap up any little tidbit of influence(say profit) they can gain.

Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, "Saudi" Arabia, and Itsahell, just to name a few of the most obvious crimes, are ALL colonial creations of western European regimes.

Criminals and their interests are the same all over the planet and the language/food preferences don´t even matter.

Free the planet.

Start wherever you are, there are handy criminal targets at every location 365/24/7.

dcbeltway -- "You used to be one of my favorite writers but lately you seem to have lost your way."

dc my friend as always is dead-on right. Fisk is ultimately the Empire's courier boy. His frequent outbursts these days sound more and more like someone crying out for the 'good old days' of the british empire or something. The language he uses to describe Arabs and other 'firangs' is borderline racist. His own countrymen can commit the worst of crimes (wars, genocide, etc) but he cant get himself to hate them as much as he hates 'unfriendly arabs' !

greenerthanthou July 16th, 2008 1:43 am

While I agree with what you said and I hope that it always remains like that in our country, there is one point I would like to differ on if I may.

I believe there are still many in our country that do not view war as a video game. That view it as the very worst thing that you resort to. And I firmly believe that if the leadership we had in 2001 had contained anyone with influence that had experienced combat in war, we would not be here now.

You are very welcome 80Lady.

yes, Americans seem to want a "quick fix" - a treaty, an agreement, etc, rather than forging an ongoing relationship ... compare France's generally cordial and cooperative relationship with Iran and then our own ... compare the history ... We really seem intent on being as confrontational and unforgiving as we can get away with ... even as trade goes on ...

We are the emperor who has no clothes ...

The US has been siding with right-wing Israelis for as long as I can remember. RIGHT-WING, mind you. Which includes a constant violation of universal human rights.

There are many Israelis and Jews who dislike that policy, but they are beneath the radar of American politics. Or else they get kicked out of Israel, see the Norman Finkelstein piece yesterday.

Europe isn't as prone to blackmail on the media
front as is America, that's why you find some balanced views there, occasionally.

Any, anyway: There would always have been the other option in the occupied territories: Make them a showcase of good governance to the degree that Palestinians would have had qualms about being governed by their own again. "Under Israeli rule, this would have been unthinkable", uttered by Palestinians, is the snetence Israel should have strived for!

Israeli administration could have been the benchmark for the Middle East re good governance. This would have been an intelligent solution; actually the one I'd have expected of Jews.

But no: Instead, Israeli occupation is a benchmark for violations of human rights. Nasty, ghastly, cruel, unjust, nauseating.

I've been there and seen it, and it is just digusting beyond belief how Israelis are treating the Arabs. As if someone had read a handbook called: "How to make enemies for life".

America first has to overcome the myth of Israel and Zionism. I do not expect this to happen in my lifetime, but still hope for it.

Of course, Israel attacking Iran could speed this process along nicely. When Americans can no longer afford to drive due to $10 per gallon gas and our economy is totally destroyed, they might just have time to actually put two and two together, to remember who kept pushing this war and why all this seemed to be about Israel's security.

Lot's of folks are going to be filing for legal name changes. Again.

I take issue with the idea that Europe has a duty to educate the US about the middle east. Wouldn't it make more sense to start by educating Americans about things like international law, not shipping Canadians off to Syria to be tortured, not treating child soldiers as terrorists, now waging illegal wars of aggression against country after country, either in person or through some proxy, etc. Could we not educate Americans regarding the fact that they are seen now as a nation of torturers. While we are at it could we not educate Americans regarding what is and what is not torture. Could we not educate Americans regarding how to prosecute their own war criminals, as required by their own laws.

If the intent is to help American's by educating them, I don't think the first thing one has to do is point at a map and say -- see that is the Middle East -- and that's Australia. A moral compass is more important than a familiarity with geography.