Sandyk77:

In re: "...But thanks to God this cabal is on their way out in November...We need a sea change...Obama `08"

So if i understand you correctly, this gawd of yours is responsible for evicting the Bush cabal in November 2008? If this were true, why didn't this supreme deity of yours not do so before January 2001?

You must be delusional to think that electing Obama will lead to a "sea" change. The people Obama picked for his cabinet is comprised of a mixture of former Bush and Clinton advisers; the Cabal lives on!

Under the GWB Administration, the situation was either a case of incompetence or something more sinister (public manipulation), or as usually the case a combination of both. Y A W N.

Just read the governments pdf that I placed the link to, talking of Tillmans "fratricide kept secret". I said Tillman was fragged when there was an article re;his Mom's book, her saying Cindy Sheehans view is too radical. I said in an earlier post on this thread, once again, Tillman was fragged by his Battalion.

Without willing participants, the volunteers who for generations have felt compelled to go to another country and die for that country are the only answer to this conundrum. If society made the mere thought of such a thing repugnant then the Commander In Chief, the Generals the Big Business participants would have "no toys to play with"
Even if a draft were to be initiated, as the biased and unfair draft from the Vietnam era, MY war (and yes I was one of those volunteers) if everyone, EVERYONE refused to go "over there", there would be no stories like young Mr. Tillman's family. Or any one's family.
Rather like if someone gave a party, and no one showed up, how soon would they give another party?
On the side of logic, this country has not tried that approach yet, and the other approach has proved to be disastrous.
Of all of the young Americans who have died in all of the foreign wars, if only one of them could have lived to become the Doctor or Scientist who discovered the "cure for stupidity"; how wonderful would that be?
Mtndog I have a script; and possible avenues for $$ ---but your address does not come up.
Send another to this posting.

The NFL keeps better stats and records than the mighty US military. I am sure that they could also do a better job with providing freedom for the Iraqi's as well. Roger Goodell for Commander in Chief! Lets go Lions!

chrismv-
You asked "Where did you hear this?". It's a fair question. Here is the link to the Washington Post article regarding the suspicion of the proximity of the wounds.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/26/AR2007072602025.html

Here is the AP release concerning the burning of Tillman's uniform.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/local/48990.php

Although Mr. Tillman had a meeting scheduled with Noam Chomsky which was rumored to be of an anti-war nature, the story has been twisted so hard by anti-war groups that it has been blurred and lacks credibility.

The circumstances surrounding Mr. Tillman's death and the Army's reaction afterwards can only be construed as highly suspicious. Although a serious investigation is warranted, the current adminstration has control of Judicial proceedings. Therefore, nothing will ever develop. It's like trying to grow roses in sand.

Always the indignation of the ill informed when corrected scream, "FASCIST", all the while not knowing what it is that it means. Typical and childlike......

chrismv July 15th, 2008 4:54 pm
How retarded are you? Am I censoring the anonymous Mr. jjpeter? Did I erase his post? How am I violating his rights? You're doing to me the exact same thing I did to him (or her for that matter), neither of which is a violation of the first ammendment. If you're going DO SOMETHING @ SOMETHING (seriously your post was barely coherent), brush up on our rights before the you get indignant over a different view, you fascist.

________________________________________________________________________

How old are you 11? "Duh, How retardeded are you? Nope indeed I'm not, I was saying what occurred not TELLING YOU WHAT YOU CAN SAY. That is the difference. Your interpretation of the Bill of Rights is quite irrational and self-serving, did Rayburn and the Hill confuse you? Only proves my point you aren't even aware of where the Representatives are housed. If you cannot make sense of something that is sensible, due to your lack of knowledge learn how to personally attack with a bit of information instead of saying that my post is "Incoherant" when it is your inability to understand daily newsworthy articles, or to actually go to the Rayburn and meet with your Congressperson.

http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20080714111050.pdf

________________________________________________________________________

chrismv-motor vehicle?, violating his rights by by TELLING HIM WHAT TO SAY, Big Brother.

Above is Government pdf on Tillman's death.

"The panel has failed, it acknowledged Monday."
-no shit!

question: Who did the whitewash I mean, "investigation"?
answer: The Democrats

Sorry, it was Native Son who called the fragging an accident. Whoops.

thank you, workreno. I, too, read Sandy's cheerleading with outraged disbelief. Shit for brains, indeed. Obama wants to send 10,000 more troops to Afghanistan and Sandy's calls that a "change"?

3 bulletholes to the forehead doesn't qualify as an "accident", Countcoup.

9-11 was an inside job, and there was never any intention of capturing BinLaden, Bush's business partner. I don't know what signed Pat Tillman's death warrant, but he was misled into joining the American imperialist army, and, apparently, was smart enough to figure it out.

Jessica Lynch tried to tell the truth, but she was muzzled and kept from the press.

um...Sandyk77...enough with the name calling OK? Or should I call you a Republican troll or Clintonista? Whatever. A little civility...maybe?

Countcoup: add me to the list of people that would like to make a film about your family and your ancestors sacrifices. I am a struggling film-maker in Colorado that would try to self-finance (that is a euphimism for go broke) to get a story like yours out in front of the complacent public to spur change. You can reach me at estespark.com. With much respect, Cliff

sandyk77
WAKE UP
Obama is a warmonger too it's the top story on todays page.
What kind of shit do you Obomunists have for brains?
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/15/10365

It appears fairly obvious that Mr Tillman was indeed murdered along with several thousand others over the last MANY years by this corrupt government.

The question seems to be :How long will the masses stand for these criminals controlling ,robbing ,monitoring and killing them so they can live like gods?

but as I recall he was awarded some medals posthumously.

The Lord George Bush is my Commander in Chief; I shall not want.
He asketh me to fight wars in Terrorist Countrys:
He leadeth me beside the still Afghanistan Mountains.
He restoreth my American patriotic soul:
He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name' sake OIL.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Dick Cheney,
I will fear his evil: For he art full of lies and with me;
Thy Karl Rove and his staff, they comfort me.
Rumsfeld preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies;
Thou annointest my head with middle east OIL;
My $147/barrell runneth over.

Wolfowitz World Bank goodness and former defense secreatary mercy shall follow Pat Tillman all the days of his Heavenly life,
and he will dwell in the War Mongering DHS House of the Lord George Bush forever.

Its easy to get into a war , when you have a bunch of rich greedy lieing World Bank bastards runing the planet.

Rest in Peace Pat Tillman , We will meet some day, I pray I can look you in the eye and tell you that the American people saved the constituion, put the checks and balances back in place for the three branches of government, and passed new laws preventing us from going to war unless actully attacked by a country , and not a group of thugs funded by middle east countrys with money WE gave them for thier OIL.

BornFreeMen

I'm very sorry for the Tillman family, their grief will take a very long time to heal.
I'm also very sorry that this war of choice didn't leave those recruits with any way out of the mayhem. The US government let you all down in a major way. And now they lie about it. But,thanks to God this cabal is on their way out in November and I am very glad to see them go.
We need a sea change... Obama '08!!

There are still a few teeth in the power of the purse. They could find the strangely defective memories as substantial indicia of incompetence, and order that the finding be placed in each individual's military record. They could further order that should any of these individuals be considered for promotion, or make a recommendation regarding a promotion, that this finding be considered as prima facie evidence in making the promotion decision, and that the promotion decision be reported back to the committee with explanation.
Sure there are major separation of powers issues are presented, but the fact they exist does do not effect Congressional funding decisions. There are lots of funding packages which can be affected by the military's show of respect or contempt for Congress. They swap stuff around all the time to meet situations presented. All the powers that be (except Cheney) read the papers. "Commander in Chief" does not trump any congressional action.
On the other hand, standing around with a blank expression and taking no action at all because of a perceived separation of powers issue is not exactly the position this administration has assumed by imposing it's theory of the "Unitary Executive" every chance it gets. Contempt of Congress is real, possible and powerful unless it's just ignored.

Countcoup: I am angry with our leaders and I am still angry that all Bush really had to do to garner support to invade Iraq was let Americans know he was a "born again Christian" and instill some fear and the assurance that he (GW) believed God wanted us to invade Iraq...to get millions to follow him and his goals. And...the gall to accuse those of us who question GW's honesty and the morality of invading Iraq as being "un-American". YUP! I am ANGRRRRRY!!!!!!

"SAN FRANCISCO - A "striking lack of recollection" by White House and military officials has prevented congressional investigators from determining who was responsible for misinformation spread after the friendly-fire death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman in 2004, a House committee said Monday."

Chairman Jerrold Nadler in today's torture hearings hit the problem right on the head. There's something in the water that they're drinking at the White House that is causing all of this amnesia.

I've always thought that the death of pat tillman was a conspiracy. he was in afghanistan when we had osama cornered on two sides and gave up the third side to afghan warlords who of course let him escape. I think tillman was involved here and did not agree to let the afghan warlords take over and was killed. He was a man with great honor, more so than any person in Washington or any ranking officer in the military. He would not let Osama escape, but Bush would because he's friends with his family. I think Pat Tillman was murdered not accidentally killed.

jjpeter: The only problem is it would be difficult for Jack Ryan to testify in front of Congress when many members of the Congress are complicit in the high crimes.

jjpeter: I agree.

kizzy: That is what I admire about his mother. I too, would spend the rest of my days relentlessly pursuing the truth. It just angers me that these morons know exacty what happened and have to blatantly lie to cover their own asses. I am sure Mrs. Tillman's book is heartbreaking, and I will be sure to read it. My heart goes out to the Tillman family.

Some very good posts here.
This is after all a free expression site.
That there seems to be so many Americans that are angry with their nation and government and so many of its leaders. That information is questioned by some and not by others. That so many people see that this country does not seem to learn from the lessons of history and therefore seems to be doomed to repeating the mistakes of history as a result. That it seems that just a few are in ultimate control of so many at the expense of so many for the financial benefit of so few.
This may prove to be the "undoing" of America, but it could very well be the "redoing of America". The one and only true fact that history will bear out is that when human beings learn from their mistakes those that refuse to repeat those mistakes are the ones who pass that trait on to the next generation; those that do not learn will most often not live long enough to reproduce, and when they do, their off spring either do not live long enough to reproduce, or they learn from the mistakes of the past.
NativeSon, even though his words are harsh, (and his other postings often show that he can be gentle) is correct in one point.
There is no other country worth shedding American blood for, on foreign soil, for foreign governments.
One of my Gfathers brothers died in Europe during WWI, a full blood Native American when his people served in the military in order to be able to be considered a "citizen". His son, a baby then, later died in Europe in 1944 in WWII just twelve years after his people had been granted "legal citizenship" in what was essentially a piece of "Unconstitutional Legislation". That young man had a son, born while he was in the European "theatre" in 1944, who died in Vietnam, at the age of twenty four during the Tet offensive 1968. Of all three, he is the only one buried in the USA. All three died not ever having known their own fathers ; all three died on foreign soil fighting in wars that were needless answers to histories repetitions of the same mistakes. Many people think that this story would make a great book, or a great movie, but it is so common as to be unremarkable. The USA has thousands of families with the same or similar stories. Foreign cemeteries in many countries contain the remains of thousands of Americans who made the mistakes of the past. The only way to stop it is for people like the ones posting opinions here continue to do so, and do their best to stop this madness.
Americans should all be willing to volunteer their services, even give their lives for their country when it is attacked on their soil; that happened last in 1812.
If more Americans accepted this, all of the corrupt political parties and their participants; the career Generals and Staff Officers, and other citizens who are willing to give up the sons and now daughters of others for political or financial gain in foreign lands, would have no one to send : because no one would go.
Perhaps the Tillmans will find some solace somewhere for their loss, I too lost a child, and the loss has never quite healed even after more than twenty years.

Claudius,
I just read Pat's mother's book, Boots on the Ground. It is heartbreaking. She and her family are heroes, because they will not stop trying to find out what happened to Pat. Do you realize how many years ago this happened?

claudius, right on, great movie. They need to release a 2008 version of it, with Iraq as the back drop, and a 2008 version of Jack Ryan giving damning testimony on all of it, every last crime commited by the Bush crime family.

It is eerily similar to the movie "Clear and Present Danger" when Deputy National Security Advisor Ritter says to Jack Ryan "No, you need to learn how to say 'senator, I have no recollection of that'"

Wow, imagine the hell that Pat Tillman's mother is going through, having to sit there and listen to these people blatantly lie by invoking the convenient amnesia game, if she was allowed to be at the hearing. I know if Pat was my son and I had to sit there and listen to these a**holes openly lie, I would have had a very difficult time restraining myself from taking these guys down to the woodshed and beating the hell out of them. The real sad part is his mother knows the truth but never will get an admission of the truth from the military.

No one is taking away my right to post and issue my opinion. So you guys relax. I can defend myself, but thanks Turce.

In an environment where our surrogates (the Dems) are good at holding "hearings" and not following up on indictments and arrests, we have the fortunate option of speaking our minds here, without being censored, no matter how twisted the imagery we may use and portray.

Maybe too many of us thirst for frontier style justice, but can you blame us? While we used to use guns or a bow and arrow, or spears to hunt for food or settle arguments, today we are soft handed and just push words around on a computer screen to satisfy our blood lust for justice.

Count me among the frustrated, pissed off and bitter. That we who can dot connect, see these criminals lying, laughing and joking, and given national air time and a pedestal to speak their lies from while the truth is spit upon.

And IF the thought police come for me about what I say here and on other blogs, I'll just say: I don't recall writing that.

Think "they'll" buy it?

How retarded are you? Am I censoring the anonymous Mr. jjpeter? Did I erase his post? How am I violating his rights? You're doing to me the exact same thing I did to him (or her for that matter), neither of which is a violation of the first ammendment. If you're going DO SOMETHING @ SOMETHING (seriously your post was barely coherent), brush up on our rights before the you get indignant over a different view, you fascist.

REAGAN

IRAN - CONTRA
I DON'T RECALL
fill in ISSUE OF THE DAY.

I DON'T RECALL
i don't remember I DON'T RECALL anything, anything at all....

chrismv July 15th, 2008 1:21 pm
Madhoosier,

I'm curious about these events. Where did you hear this? I'm not arguing one way or another, but I'd like something solid if this really is the case.

jjpeter,

If I was as mad at the government as you seem to be, I'd actually do something about it instead of posting violent prose.

________________________________________________________________________
chrismv, this is a site, a forum where people vent, we are angry, and actually DO SOMETHING @ THINGS. Opine if you wish, but you are trashing jjpeter's First Amendment Rights. That is unacceptable, by the by how often are you inside the Rayburn "Doing something about IT."???
I livestreamed the Judiciary question Feith[sic]today for about 2 hours, same garbage, "I'm not sure, cannot remember exactly, if it happened I was unaware.", same crap, deny, deny, deny.
Tillman was fragged, Jessica Lynch was beaten by her battalion, these are facts from firsthand accounts of Iraq and Afghanistani Vets. You should do your own thing and not chastise others for how they feel.

Of course it did.

Something like this is all for show. Its just to get some cheap headlines and soundbites for the Democrats. Its never meant to go anywhere.

Two general thoughts. In any criminal case, no one involved is going to talk easily. They all will either say they don't know or lie. But a determined investigator can still dig through it bit by bit. Note that determined is the key word.

Also, at some point, someone is responsible. That's why businesses like heirarchies. No matter what, there is someone they can point to and say 'you are responsible'. If that person says they don't know or don't recall, you fire them anyways because if they don't know or don't recall, then they weren't doing their job.

Oh well, this was all just a grandstanding little show by our lovely Democrats. They see parents grieving, and instead of helping them in their quest, they just do some showboating and postering to score political points. Disgusting.

Imagine that, and these educated people who can't recall are our fearless leaders and are receiving a paycheck from us taxpayers. Ignorance is bliss but you shouldn't get paided and get to retire for it.

Perhaps Mr. Tillman's family (and I grieve with them, honestly) could use his death as an example for others, with another approach.
A handsome young man with a bright future as a professional Football player, gives it all up to serve his country, in an International Criminal endeavor, in a foreign country, for all of the wrong reason, only to be killed by mistake by his own service members, and then have the corrupt Military from very high up cover it up-----and propagate more lies in the process. His death might represent more than the eye sees-------or--just another wasted life that comes cheap to a corrupt nation-----the USA.
SPEAKING AS A VETERAN OF ANOTHER LIE; VIETNAM;
BEING EXEMPT FROM THE DRAFT AS A NATIVE AMERICAN, LIKE A FOOL I VOLUNTEERED---LIKE MR. TILLMAN. I SURVIVED THOUGH, AND I HAVE NEVER STOPPED TELLING OTHERS NOT TO MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID........
Mr. Tillman's worries are over----the ones left behind have a duty to seek justice, but also assure that his mistake is not repeated.

THERE IS NO FOREIGN COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT IS WORTH ONE DROP OF AMERICAN BLOOD.
Thank you for your time.......

What a blatant lie.
The truth is that they know EXACTLY where the misinformation trail leads but are unwilling to publicly release it.

Who cares about Tillman? He went to Afghanistan to kill Arabs.

I know this is true because Ted Rall said so.

Since they don't consider it torture, we should waterboard some of these people and see if they remember anything then!

That's it? No one's talking so the congressional investigation ends? It's that easy!?

When investigating the Mafia do municipal and federal police say 'Well nobody will say anything (Omerta)... I guess we should cancel the investigation'?

I guess whoever would be charged would just be pardoned anyway. Can the President pardon himself?

As long as Democrats keep impeachment "off the table" (note well that impeachment has not been "off the table" for Republicans since Nixon resigned to avoid impeachment), there will be no consequences to continued criminal behavior by Government officials. Why should they stop when they know that fellow criminals in the White House and Congress will ensure that they never have to pay for their crimes? Since President Bush let convicted felon Scooter Libby off the hook, it has been clear that anybody with connections has a free pass for any crime our "leaders" in Washington want done for them. The Mafia were pikers compared to the folks we now elect to public office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman

Above should have been "invasion of Iraq"

Madhoosier,

I'm curious about these events. Where did you hear this? I'm not arguing one way or another, but I'd like something solid if this really is the case.

jjpeter,

If I was as mad at the government as you seem to be, I'd actually do something about it instead of posting violent prose.

Rest in peace Pat Tillman, your death will be avenged.

The blood soaked clothing of the bush administration one day will be thrown into the public square, and God willing, the naked bastards whose vile bodies it came, from will be seen in the distance, twisting at the end of ropes in the wind.

Little Brother: Don't hold your breath.

Madhoosier: Well said!

Bane Richter: The Code of "Omerta."

Tillman had made an appointment to talk to Noam Chomsky when he returned from Afghanistan and Kevin Tillman, his brother and Army Ranger, quoted Pat as saying about the invasion of Iran "This was is so fucking illegal."

The three bullet holes in Pat's forehead were so close together that they had to have been fired from close range and the initial medical examiners wanted an investigation to see if his death was a crime but there was no investigation at that time.

Tillman's uniform, body armor and journal were all burnt after his death.

And now nobody can remember anything....

Code Of Silence: not ratting on your colleagues once you've been pinched. Credit the mafia with adhering to process.

A "striking lack of recollection"...rather similar in nature to Reagan's Iran-Contra fiasco, no doubt.

Yet another Congressional investigative tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Look, it was all just a Merry Mixup, OK?

The homicide, the coverup, the prolific disinformation-- stuff happens. The fog of war and such.

Nothing to see here, might as well just move along.

Besides, this will give that pit bull Waxman a chance to focus on all of the OTHER Questionable Activities he's constantly pursuing-- it's like he's chasing an entire FLEET of getaway cars!

He may even finally find time to listen to Sibel Edmonds!