GwNorth, "The vast majority of that time the land was held either by Rome, by Egypt, by babylon or by Assyria. As an independent state "Israel" existed a short period of time, a blip in history"

1. Israelites and Jews had an independent state / kingdom for about 800 years till the Babylonian occupation. And another 200 years between the Greeks and the Romans. 1000 years is hardly a blip.
2. Even during Persian, Greek, and Roman Occupation (At least until 135AD) Jews were the majority of the population in Israel. So one can say that Jews were the Majority for about 1500 years.

---
GwNorth, "Regarding the Lebanon conflict newspapers from Tawain and India give a very different accoutn of what happened in lebaonon. THEY claimed that an Israeli patrol crossed into Lebanon NOT vice versa and that the Israelis captured were on the lebanese side of the border."

As per your weird claim that the 2006 Lebanese war started with an Israeli incretion. I would advise you to check your sources. Please give us a link that "prove" your claim.

It was the Hizballah who initiate the war by firing rockets at Israeli civilian targets, followed by a cross border raid.
The Israeli incretion happened only after the above cross border raid in a failed attempt to rescue the kidnapped soldiers.

Bluntly lying that the order of events is the other way around, is an Orwellian style revision of history. I'll be waiting for your "proof".

GwNorth July 13th, 2008 9:05 pm

"I live in Canada. Thre was no sign this treaty or die policy."

Thats nice BUT that's not the way it worked in the US. I ran the computer system in the Indian Hospital in Phoenix for 3 years, I probably know more Native Americans than you but if I do or not it is besides the point. Stealing or theft is against the law and has been for centuries, the 10 commandments say you can't steal, Hammurabi in his code of laws stated theft was against the law. The death penalty was freely awarded for theft and other crimes...

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.html

">>That indian is still correct and I am waiting for you to get on the damn boat and leave HIS land.

if you believe that then it is you that should get on the boat and sail back to Europe."

It is not I who says Israel stole the land from the Palestinians and should give it back WHILE totally ignoring (for your personal gain) the fact that the Europeans stole the land (North America) from the natives and refuse to give it back, it is you. The boat awaits you.

"Balforur declaration had no legitimacy. It is MEANINGLESS under the rule of law."

That's YOUR law, then you also believe the UN mandate partitioning Palestine was illegal and the UN is a lawless organization. That I am sure will come as a great shock to one heck of a lot of UN bureaucrats.

>>Native americans were FORCED to sign treaties under duress (sign or die) their land was stolen period and theft has been illegal in the world since laws were made.

I live in Canada. Thre was no sign this treaty or die policy. The NWMP that went to the West to sign treaties numbered no more then a few hundred. 2 or three officers would enter a native encampment to sign treaties.

>>The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was preceded by more than 50 years of efforts to establish a sovereign nation as a homeland for Jews. These efforts were initiated by Theodore Herzl, founder of the Zionist movement, and were given added impetus by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which asserted the British Government's support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

So what? Why would a nation be created by people who do not even live in the lands being given away? Neither the British or the Zionists lived in Palestine.

The Turkish Empire controlled Palestine in 1917. Once more the Balforur declaration had no legitimacy. It is MEANINGLESS under the rule of law. It is like Russia proclaiming Florida a homeland for the Tibetans.

>>That indian is still correct and I am waiting for you to get on the damn boat and leave HIS land.

if you believe that then it is you that should get on the boat and sail back to Europe.

Just last year I went to a wedding where my niece married an Aboriginal. I have been to family reunions where a third of the people there have Aboriginal blood.

None have ever demanded theat the white guys leave their country. The Aboriginals I have met and am related to are probably the most compassionate and sharing people i have met in my lifetime.

All they want is our respect and just compensation for the lands stolen from them, or of the treaties broken, which I whole heartedly support.

Your suggestion that they demand we all return to the Europe is in fact reflecting a profound misunderstanding of how they think.

You are inflecting your racism on them.

I sincerely doubt you know an Aboriginal.

PK

"treaties surrendering land were signed."

Native americans were FORCED to sign treaties under duress (sign or die) their land was stolen period and theft has been illegal in the world since laws were made.

"Why stop there..Russia has every right to invade Poland."

Actually Russia does at present occupies a part of Poland and Poland occupies part of eastern Germany.

"What occurred in 1922 was a direct violation of existing laws. What occurred in 1948 even more so."

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was preceded by more than 50 years of efforts to establish a sovereign nation as a homeland for Jews. These efforts were initiated by Theodore Herzl, founder of the Zionist movement, and were given added impetus by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which asserted the British Government's support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

In the years following World War I, Palestine became a British Mandate and Jewish immigration steadily increased, as did violence between Palestine's Jewish and Arab communities. Mounting British efforts to restrict this immigration were countered by international support for Jewish national aspirations following the near-extermination of European Jewry by the Nazis during World War II. This support led to the 1947 UN partition plan, which would have divided Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem under UN administration.

So what you are saying is the UN has no authority to do anything because it is against some law you made up.

That indian is still correct and I am waiting for you to get on the damn boat and leave HIS land.

>>If history should be different for Israel than as the native american above stated , GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY. Some how I fail to see you rushing to the dock to get on a boat to leave, TALK ABOUT HYPOCRISY

There is a great difference several of them in fact.

1>The Rule of International law has evolved. At one time if was perfectly acceptable to raze a captured city to the ground, kill or enslave the men and take the women to ones own bed.

The Imperialist powers of the 1600's and 1700's operated under different laws then we do today. laws have since evolved making what was once legal , illegal.

Had germany launched its war in the 1600's it would never have seen its leaders charged with war crimes. Nations are nations of laws.

Just because Spain had the legal right to torture its victims during the Inquisition, it hardly means it hyprocritcal to state that GW Bush does not have that right today.

Were people to condemn slavery today as Illegal and morally repugnant one could not use the rebutal "Well where were YOU in 1500 when hundreds of thousands of slaves taken from Africa" as a justification to allow slavery.

What occurred in 1922 was a direct violation of existing laws. What occurred in 1948 even more so.

2>The native tribes signed treaties with invading powers, surrendering their titles to the land in return for other considerations from the crown. Now many of these treaties were violated and compensation should be paid, but the point remains treaties surrendering land were signed.

This was using the framework of law that existed at the time wherein the aboriginals were seen by the crown as a sovereign power.

That said this does not remove the obligation of the powers that be to deal with the Aboriginal populations fairly be it with title to more land or outright cash grants which happens even as we speak. These are legal and moral obligations.

The Palestinians signed no treaties to give up their lands. They did not agree to surrender their titles and claim to the lands. They were not paid compensation for being driven from the lands, this all happening in 1948 when such obligations had long been seen as the lawful way in addressing such matters.

Just as the natives that were wronged in North America deserve justice, so too do the Palestinians.

>>If history should be different for Israel than as the native american above stated , GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY. Some how I fail to see you rushing to the dock to get on a boat to leave, TALK ABOUT HYPOCRISY

then by your own argument, iran and the Arab states, along with the Palestinians have every right to destroy Israel and drive its people into the sea.

Why stop there..Russia has every right to invade Poland. The USA might as well call Iraq part of US territory and open it to Immigration from Israel.

China can depopulate Tibet , Brazil can attack Columbia....Iraq can take Kuwait....Germany can recreate its third reich.

And you would be supporting such using the claim "Such has always happened through History".

The reasons why laws have evolved is so we can get past the fighting over territories and the stealing of one anothers resources and territories.

Tell me would you support Russia invading Finland and claiming the lands as their own, driving out all the Finns and repopulating with ethnic Russians or would you condemn it?

I mean throughout history thats how countries acquired territory..not so?

There has been some confusion of my responses to GwNorth and to JNS. I will try to clearer in this response, even though I think one could sort it out in any case.

JNS-
You say that I use the term anti-Semitism to stop criticism of Israel. This is a common claim, but has nothing to do with what I said. To repeat, anti-Semitism in the context of this discussion is lumping Jewish people together as a monolithic group that only behaves badly (Jewish control of government, banks, media, feelings of "racial" superiority, blood lust, smart, conniving, backstabbing, other selected items from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.). These are arguments made on right wing sites such as Stormfront, and are identical to ones parroted here. They are anti-Semitic wherever they are made, whether they are done to justify attacking Israel, or for any other reason.

You say "I can consider myself to have a spiritual genesis in YOUR house. It doesn't give me legal standing to TAKE IT." Did your ancestors live in my house, establish a globally recognized and copied religion there, get evicted as reflected in multiple historical sources, have a part of your family continue to live there throughout the intervening 2000 years, before having others finally return to live there in an internationally recognized immigration? Just wondering… Until you respond to any of my other points I'll leave it at that.

fedupwithpolitics July 13th, 2008 1:22 pm

"It tries to brand itself as the victim–having the right to "defend" itself–but from its earliest days it has stolen land, ..."

Jack Nelson Steward July 13th, 2008 8:52 am

"The State of Israel exists on land forcible taken from people who lived there. That fact ALONE makes it a criminal enterprise. The people from whom it was stolen have not given it up and are still fighting to reclaim it."

As I overheard a native american state in a rather heated argument, "IF YOU ARE NOT A NATIVE INDIAN THAN GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY".
Just when are you planning to get on a boat back to where you (your ancestors) came from?

GwNorth July 13th, 2008 12:57 pm

"Now why would you point out what Islam claims as a matter of their faith, yet not acknowledge that it equally absurd to claim a land belongs to a people because they are the chosen race and god gave it to them? I would point out that there are Zionists and orthodox jews who also claim that Jordan, South Lebanon and a great swathe of the Sinai belong to Israel as part of the biblical gift from their God."

Actually the qur'an also states this land was given to the jews by allah, non the less you totally ignore history in your hatred of the jews, all through history, through migration, wars and purchasing, land has passed from one group to another, why should it be any different for Israel?
If history should be different for Israel than as the native american above stated , GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY. Some how I fail to see you rushing to the dock to get on a boat to leave, TALK ABOUT HYPOCRISY !!!

Wow, banjobama, what a kneejerk respose. I hope I am not as vile as you say I am. But it goes with paranoia that someone who tells the paranoid the truth is treated as an enemy. Just see Bush and Cheney and Rummy for this kind of psychosis. But I don't see myself as anti-Israel at all. Just as when I criticize captialism and Republicans and Democrats and our beloved leader, Bushshit hisself, I do not see myself as anti-American. But as a patriot who speaks up against coming injustices.

You ask why would the Jewish community talk to me? Why, are they forbidden by the rabbis to talk to others outside the tribe? Indeed, it happens to be that I am included in that community by friendship and spouse. And this community gets information from Israeli friends, to be prepared for this and that. Now, that is hardly spy-level material, but it is noteworthy when discussing the issue of an attact on Iran. Do you think I wish harm to Israel? I do not. Do you think I wish harm to the USA? I do not. But I want to warn both peoples that their leaders may be secretly planning things that are harmful to both, and harmful to the peace and well-being of the world.

Do I think all Jewish people are right-wing and in the AIPAC? No I definitely do not. But the most rabid active right-wing ones are, who may be referred to as Zionists/expansionists (in our country they are called NeoCon Republicans - same kind of thing - American Corporate Zionists). These AIPAC people get themselves and their 'friends' into positions of authority close to and within the American Federal government, so they can affect policies that affect Israel. And they attack and help defeat politicians who do not kowtow to their overt nationalist Israeli goals.

So there really is a coordinated effort to affect the high policy of the United States, and to slant that policy to the benefit of Israel. (And I won't delve into the lengths to which some are willing to go in order to draw the US pubic into Israeli conflicts via secret Mossad/rogue CIA ops, like say, actions back on a certain September day.)

Of course, better still if this AIPAC-slanted policy also slants the way it is wanted to slant by certain oil executive men(and a Condi) among the 60 or more that are appointed by oilman Bush into his Administration, and now can come with a cover label of "freedom is on the march', or "they hate us fer our freedums", Bush... (but must just love us for our rockets and bombs and bullets falling on them!) or, "gotta help our bestest friend, staunchest ally, and most glorious outpost, Israel." Look, I criticise my country too, as well as any country that warrants it. That especially means Israel, as it is the chief beneficiary of American Tax Dollars abroad.

These hidden agendas could be considered as acts of treason, but since it is done by the current government, as Cheney puts it to you very succinctly, 'so?' and then he requests of you to thusly 'go fuck yourself'.

And they make sure Israel is THE most favored nation on the Earth in the area of American largesse, and that any criticism of actions by Israel or US actions on behalf of Israel are given the AntiSemite Tag immediately, and are crushed by smearing, ad hominem critiques such as WHITE SUPREMACIST KILLER OF JEWS, whether or not the criticism is true (and it is as usual not, on all counts). This is like Rush Limbaugh calling Kucinich, Kerry, Kennedy and Nader US-HATING TERRORIST-LOVERS. What a pathetic prattle of drug-addled spittle Limbaugh vomits up.

I don't call Israelis ANTI-SEMITE PALESTINIAN MURDERERS or JEWISH EXECUTIONERS OF JESUS, as it would nake no sense and be worthless to boot. The same with banjo's rant. Because I do not want to see Israel OR America bomb Iran, I am a white supremacist, maybe complete with sheet? That is straight out of the playbood to stomp down criticism, as elucidated in the book THE ISRAEL LOBBY. Beleive me, the Supremacists are the ones who REALLY WANT to see Iran bombed.

It will be a big mistake if Iran is attacked. BUT I SEE IT COMING! And this action may be closer than we are led to believe, which is, no, they won't do THAT... it makes no sense, they are just saber rattling.

But that these sociopathic leaders would, in fact, do this, is my point. And my point is also that what Israel's current leaders think is a good idea, may not be so good for the US or rest of world. And what is a hot diggidy idea aroung the Bushite backwoods campfire, may in fact be the final hot diggedy doggy doggone act that brings our nation down.... and also Israel.

If Israel really wants to get along with its neighbors... and they ain't movin'... then there has to be some honey offered for the neighbors, don't just knock on their door and then shoot them and take their house. That ain't Honey. But I also understand the need for good fences and the UN blue-helmets, for a time. That is what I suggested (walls, bluehemets) before either one of these were set in place. So think about it some more. Stop the kneejerk namecalls against the bearer of truth, when there is criticism that may be correct. Because at this point, I for one see that Israel and the USA both really, really need an intervention and a cooling off period.

Pro-Israel group CAMERA's plan to rewrite history on Wikipedia:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9474.shtml

When will the Left wake up and realize what a dangerous fascist nation Israel is?! When will Leftists stop defending Israeli's war crimes?! Israel should be held accountable for every single Palestinian death, every Iraqi death, and every Iranian death because of its aggressive, pro-war policies. It tries to brand itself as the victim--having the right to "defend" itself--but from its earliest days it has stolen land, slaughtered Arabs, and endangered the entire world. Stop this fanatical paranoia, end the Occupation, and let's see how fast the Middle East becomes a peace zone.

Letto you continue to cite Wiki as a source. It is not a source. They are opinion pieces and can be edited by anyone.

Regarding the Lebanon conflict newspapers from Tawain and India give a very different accoutn of what happened in lebaonon. THEY claimed that an Israeli patrol crossed into Lebanon NOT vice versa and that the Israelis captured were on the lebanese side of the border.

They point out that two tanks disabled were on the lebanese side of the border. Neither account can be considered factual if there are different accounts.

Israel has a long history of intruding into the territory of other Countries. the UN in lebanon today is always issuing reports that Israel violates lebanese air or sea space and in fact had to warn that they would fire on Israeli planes that did so.

It was Israel that launched an attack on Syria recently. It was Israel that Attacked iraq at Osirak. It was Israel that invaded Lebanon multiple times. It is Israel that still occupies the Shaaba farms region which is not part of Israel.

It is israel running refueling flights to practice for an attack on Iran. yet when Iran warns that if attacked they will retaliate...all we here is how it proves how beligerent Iran is.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

>>According to the doctrines of established Islamic jurisprudence, any real estate that has ever been conquered or occupied by Muslims remains the sacred territory of the Ummah in perpetuity. Regardless of later events — the Reconquista, the establishment of Israel — Muslim land is Muslim land forever.

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that Palestinians lived on the lands they called Palestine and were displaced and driven from those lands by settlers form Eastern Europe.

These same settlers claming the land given to them by their god.

Now why would you point out what Islam claims as a matter of their faith, yet not acknowledge that it equally absurd to claim a land belongs to a people because they are the chosen race and god gave it to them? I would point out that there are Zionists and orthodox jews who also claim that Jordan, South Lebanon and a great swathe of the Sinai belong to Israel as part of the biblical gift from their God.

Both views are quite frankly idiotic and nothing one should base land claims on.

I can list as many nutball quotes from the mouths of Israeli religous and Political leaders as you can from the other side.

Take Judaism out of the argument, Take Islam out of the arguement. Comparing the two religions has nothing to do with the fact that a people were dispossessed of their lands, driven out by force, not compensated for those lands and some 40 years later still live in refugee camps.

Letto claims that it came about by peaceful immigration. This is not the case. The British were an ARMED force and brutally suppressed the Palestinians during two revolts when the Palestinians began resisting the influx of settlers from Europe the British were letting in.

In 1922 10 percent of the peoples in Palestine were Jewish. The British opened the floodgates to Jewish Immigrants and then told the Palestinians that the land would be divided .It was inevitable the Palestinians would resist.

I can guarentee you that if an Armed force took Texas, then opened Texas to Immigrants from China saying "We are going to form a new Homeland here for the Chinese persecuted in Asia....you will have to give up half of texas for them , Texans would resist WITH force.

Bama, you have responded to Gw about my post.

It is another of the apologists for the State of Israel's common tactics to assign any criticism of the country or any recognition of the conditions of its creation to "Right Wing, white supremacists."

Save it. I am neither. My information comes from Jewish historians and I have no antipathy toward Jews whatsoever.

You can save yourself the breast-beating howls of Anti Semitism as well.

My arguments haven't changed. The parts you are willing to address have.

Whether or not the State of Israel had the backing of the United States military on the date of its inception (and I believe it did) it does NOW, and that is what allows it to act like a schoolyard bully and worse.

You may not choose from among the resolutions and mandates of the United Nations which ones you will follow unless you are prepared to allow others to so pick and choose. If you want to dismiss resolutions because Arab states participated in their passage you will have others similarly dismissing them for other reasons. I am not particularly "enamored" of the United Nations. I don't think it had the power to cede Palestine in the way it did any more than I think it could give Georgia to the Cherokee. If you wish to lean on a United Nations resolution for the creation of the State of Israel, you MUST then consider that ALL United Nations resolutions require similar recognition.

You know what a criminal enterprise is. Cut it out. No I don't believe in the "divine right of kings" as a basis for ANYthing except the King's ego. The American Revolution was fought in part against such a notion.

It was you who brought up legal standing in claiming that because the Jews considered themselves to be from Judea no matter where they were born that they had some claim on the land.

I said," No, they don't!" I can consider myself to have a spiritual genesis in YOUR house. It doesn't give me legal standing to TAKE IT.

The State of Israel exists on land forcible taken from people who lived there. That fact ALONE makes it a criminal enterprise. The people from whom it was stolen have not given it up and are still fighting to reclaim it.

I would be, too.

GwNorth July 13th, 2008 5:28 am

"The war with Israel is not about a treaty, a cease-fire agreement, Sykes-Picot borders, national zeal, or disputed borders," ASAyman al-Zawahiri explained "It is rather a jihad for the sake of God until the religion of God is established."
(That would be SHARIA LAW)

Efraim Karsh, historian at King's College, University of London: "the Islamic connection to the Palestinian problem is … not out of concern for a Palestinian right to national self-determination but as part of a holy war to prevent the loss of a part of the 'House of Islam' that Islamists inveigh against the Jewish state of Israel. In this respect, there is no difference between Palestine and other parts of the world conquered by the forces of Islam throughout history. To this very day, for example, Arabs and many Muslims unabashedly pine for the restoration of Spain, and look upon their expulsion from that country in 1492 as a grave historical injustice, as if they were Spain's rightful owners and not former colonial occupiers of a remote foreign land, thousands of miles from their ancestral homeland.
According to the doctrines of established Islamic jurisprudence, any real estate that has ever been conquered or occupied by Muslims remains the sacred territory of the Ummah in perpetuity. Regardless of later events — the Reconquista, the establishment of Israel — Muslim land is Muslim land forever.

staying_sane_in_an_insane_world July 13th, 2008 4:20 am

"Israel is a religious state. The Jews are the only religious group that has ever managed to convince the "world" that they have a right to their own separate country. In that sense, Israeli is a complete anomaly."
SOOOOO
Islam is a law-based religion, to a much greater extent than any other religion we know of. And utterly incomparable to the Jewish religion that is also called a law-based religion by some. The Islamic law of faith, Sharia, is also the civil law of Islam. The main offering of Islam is to replace other legal systems with Sharia. As a Danish-speaking imam stated recently: "You request me to condemn stoning of women, but what can I do, when my god demands stoning of women?"

ALL Islamic countries are RELIGIOUS states thus according to you are a complete anomaly and have NO right to exist.

>>I'm an example to prove you wrong. I'm not religious at all. I don't even believe in God, Yet I see myself as a Jew.

If I convert to Judaism tomorrow my nationality does not change. Nor does my Ethnic group. I will be seen as Jewish DUE TO RELIGION.

The religion defines the group as Jewish because I can not convert to Judaism without a Rabbi and without going through a Religous ceremony that converts me to judaism.

An atheist can not go to a Rabbi and claim he wants to become Jewish. The Rabbi will not perform the ceremony.

That is again artifical and based on religous beliefs. Just as you can claim to be an Atheist but not jewish, there are people with Jewish ancestry who will deny they are Jews.

Under "Jewish Law" if a Jewish mother converts to Christianity before a baby born and that baby baptized as a Christian, then that baby is NOT Jewish.

This does not fit my definition nationhood indpendent of a religous belief.

>>First of all - just to be clear about your "MAY NOT" comment - There was a Jewish kingdom in Israel some 2000- 3500 years ago.

The vast majority of that time the land was held either by Rome, by Egypt, by babylon or by Assyria. As an independent state "Israel" existed a short period of time, a blip in history which hardly means that anyone who can trace roots to that land is suddenly entitled to move there, 2000 ears later and lay claim to it.

Why can Rome not reclaim it..Or Egypt? Or Turkey from whence Assyria sprang?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/davidjer.html

This is a Jewish source that admits that there little to no historical Evidence of King David outside the bible. Thye refer to one fragment being found mentioning his name.

When i was speaking to the historical record, i was speaking to the one commonly accepted , that being a great Israeli Kingdom embracing what is now Jordan, Lebanon and parts of The Sinai and a player on the world stage promised to them by "god".

That myth.

>>>Please explain your discrepancy: Why the claim (given by you) that Palestinians lived in Israel for thousands of years is not stupid and yet, on the other hand, the fact that Jews once lived in Israel is

I explained the difference to you.

People live in France today. Many of these descended from Germanic peoples that invaded after the collpase of the Roman Empire and drove out the native Celts.

There is absolutely no doubt that if you go to France today you will find people who have lived in various regions of France for hundreds of years and more continously.

If people from Ireland said "we are celts....The CELTS used to occupy the land until germanic invaders drove us out...we never surrendered that land. We were driven out at the point of a sword" no court in the world would give those people a legal claim on that land over and above those peopel that are living there today and have been so hundreds of years.

Palestine was NOT empty of people when the Jewish settlers started arriving.

The peoples LIVING there were not consulted, nor did they sign away title to the lands they were living on. Whether those returning could claim ancestry fromt he land some 2000 years ago hardly means they had to legaly accept them with open arms.

If you own a farm and one of your cousins says "You know yer grandad and my grandad are one and the same..I am moving onto the farm now, half of it is mine just by virtue of ancestry" what would your response be?

There is no "legal" right to an individual or a people to lay claim to a land because one of their ancestors may have come from that land 2000 years before, nor is there a legal right to displace persons living there based upon what happened 2000 years ago.

http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_science/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Rela...

This study shows the Palestinians genetically linked to the Ancient Canaanites. Btw it shows the jews as closest to them genetically.

Thus they have been living there continously for thousands of years. They never left. Whereas those jews returning from Europe after a 2000 year abscence DID.

staying_sane_in_an_insane_world: "the 2006 bombing of Lebanon was not only a terrorist atrocity, it was also an act of war"

I'm happy that you brought the 2006 Lebanon war as an example. Let us examine how it started and who was the one who perpetrated the war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

The conflict began when Hezbollah militants fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence.[20] Of the seven Israeli soldiers in the two jeeps, two were wounded, three were killed, and two were captured and taken to Lebanon.

And the rest is history.

I'll wright it again:
The conflict began when Hezbollah militants fired rockets at Israeli (civilian) border towns (A War Crime)

Thank you for proving my point staying_sane_in_an_insane_world.

staying_sane_in_an_insane_world: "JEWS ARE A RACE AND A NATION! Yeah, right!"

First of all I never said Jews are a RACE. This is something that only YOU and GwNorth brought. And before you, ithat claim was found only in Nazi propaganda. Why are you and GwNorth so obsessed with attributing the word RACE to a Jew?

As for the question of Jews are also a nation, did you read this?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

----
staying_sane_in_an_insane_world: "Jews have to claim Palestine was THEIR land stolen from them by the Palestinians."

Romans, Romans. Jews claim their land was stolen by the Romans, not by Palestinians. Stop inventing things that aren't there.

---

The Jews are the only religious group that has ever managed to convince the "world" that they have a right to their own separate country.

Jews are also a nation, and as such has a right, like any other nations, for self determination.

---

Letto writes: "On many cases it was Israel's enemies who perpetrated the war."

Unbelivable that you are allowed to get away with this crap.

I'm not writing a long post, but the 2006 bombing of Lebanon was not only a terrorist atrocity, it was also an act of war!

Hezbollah is not Lebanon, and Israel fired the first shot at Lebanon. Lebanon having done nothing. Israel then bombed urban areas, claiming that's where Hezbollah was firing from. It turns out Hezbollah was firing, overwhelmingly, from the countryside, where they had dug tunnels.

Perhaps Israel targetted urban areas in an attempt to kill the families of the Hezbollah fighters - get back at them that way! Over 1,000 innocent civilians were murdered in cold-blood by Israel.

And let's rembember how Hezbollah came about - it was orginally a group to liberate the Lebanese from Israel's brutal occupation of their country.

The Jews had no right to create a country in the Middle East and call it Israel. Religion - a pack of lies - is nothing but trouble!

A 150 comments later it still amazes me how far the zionist fucks on this board, are willing to lie and obfuscate and essentially cover-up the war crimes committed by the terrorist state of israel.

Its amazing that a majority of the people in the world can see through this zionist scam and the only people who pretend to believe the zionist scum are the U.S. and U.K. Clearly its for political reasons.

JEWS ARE A RACE AND A NATION! Yeah, right!

Letto writes: "Judaism is also a nation. I'm Jewish by nationality, and I have no religion (an atheist)".

This is ridiculous!

Jews are not a nation. A nation is an artificial creation, a creation of the human mind. Animals have no nations, yet a pigeon in New York is exactly the same as pigeon in London or a pigeon in Tokyo.

If you were born in Israel, then the most you can say is that you're an Israeli. If you weren't born in Israel, then Israel is NOT your nation.

Where is the land of the Jew? Jews have no land! Humans fight over land, then set up borders and called it a nation.

The land that is today Israel, and was Palestine - until certain Jews in the 1940s used terrorism against the British - was orginally called Canaan. And the people that lived there were the Canaanites. But, according to the bible, "God" told the Israelites to travel to Canaan and butcher every man, woman, and child living there, and take the land for themselves.

What a nerve, then, Jews have to claim Palestine was THEIR land stolen from them by the Palestinians.

To examine in minute detail the genes of a group of people, find an insignificant difference, and then claim this difference makes the group unique, is absurd in the extreme.

If you're going to do that with the Jews, then you may as well compile a family tree for every family on Earth, and use that as evidence of separate ethnic groups, races, or nations. In which case, there are millions upon millions of separate ethnic groups, races, and nations.

Races evolve over thousands - or tens of thousands - of years. They evolve on a continent, or on an island, IN ISOLATION! The Blacks are a race. Whites are a race. Asians are a race. Jews are not a race, ethnic group, or anything else.

Anne Frank was a German, Caucasian girl. Hitler was killing his own people. No one is born a Jew, and it is morally repugnant to call children Jews and embroil them in a mess created by adults. Until that child grows up, he or she is just a child, like any other child.

My grandfather was supposedly a Jew, until, that is, he reached adulthood; then he renounced his religion as utter nonsense. He was no longer a Jew!

I'm also not a Jew. I'm white-skinned, a Caucasian - identical to every other Caucasian. Unless, that is, you want to examine my genes for insignificant differences, but then if you do that with me, you must do that with everyone else, in which case we are all our own separate race, ethnic group, nation, or whatever other meaningless word you want to invent.

Israel is a religious state. The Jews are the only religious group that has ever managed to convince the "world" that they have a right to their own separate country. In that sense, Israeli is a complete anomaly.

Finally, Israelis like to talk about protecting their territorial integrity. Then why weren't the Palestinians allowed to protect theirs? The Jews used terrorism against the British when Palestine was a British protectorate. Then the "world" denied the Palestinians the right to protect the integrity of their nation. Now the Jews scream "anti-semite" at anyone who disagrees with their extremely selfish - and self-obsessed! - ways.

daneopa "It's time for Americans to tell Israel to piss off and stop screwing the world with it's self-righteous victimhood. They are the perpetrators of war in the Middle East and everyone is aware of that fact."

Not true .
Most wars in the Middle East has nothing to do with Israel (Sudan, Morocco, Algeria, Kurdistan, Iran-Iraq, Kuwait... to name a few). And those who does - On many cases it was Israel's enemies who perpetrated the war.

GwNorth, "who the frick cares what happened 2000 years ago?"

Apparently Jews and Palestinians do. And so do you since you claimed that Palestinians had been living in the country for thousands of years.

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GwNorth, "Just as those east Europeans who came to Palestine were invaders."

The Jews who immigrated to Israel from the late 19th century were immigrants / refugees and NOT INVADERS. They didn't have military bases nor army / navy in Eastern Europe. And they came as individual immigrants without any weapons, and not as a Polish invading army carrying arms and fight its way in by force.

Here is the dictionary definition of invasion.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=invasion

---

GwNorth, "Judaism is a religous faith. It is not a nation anymore then Muslim or Christianity is a nation. Any person can convert to Judaism. This means it can not be an ethnic group."

Not true. Jew is both a religion and a nation.. Unlike Christian or Muslim.

I'm an example to prove you wrong. I'm not religious at all. I don't even believe in God, Yet I see myself as a Jew.
I bet you won't be able to find an atheist Christian or an atheist Muslim.

---

GwNorth, "Please show me the Science that claims Jews as a race or ethnic group."

I never said Jews are a race. These are you words.

As for the fact that Jew is both a religion, and a nation - One just need read the definition of Jew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is used.

---

GwNorth, "the jews came from EUROPE for the most part and to claim they had legal right because of something that may or may not have happened 2000 years ago is to be blunt…stupid."

First of all - just to be clear about your "MAY NOT" comment - There was a Jewish kingdom in Israel some 2000- 3500 years ago. All main stream historians will tell you so. There are many Jewish, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Assyrians, Persian, Babylonian documents to prove it, along with numerous archaeological findings to support what you claim "May not existed..."

Your claim that a Jewish kingdom / Province may not existed in the past in Israel / Palestine - is stupid.

Please explain your discrepancy: Why the claim (given by you) that Palestinians lived in Israel for thousands of years is not stupid and yet, on the other hand, the fact that Jews once lived in Israel is?

---

"The palestinians are semitic. It rather absurd to lable them or any people who feel they were wrongfully driven off their lands as anti-semitic."

GwNorth, - Obviously you don't know what is anti-semitic. (Or what is the most commonly understood meaning in modern English) There is a very good book that can help you understand. It is called - A dictionary.

It's time for Americans to tell Israel to piss off and stop screwing the world with it's self-righteous victimhood. They are the perpetrators of war in the Middle East and everyone is aware of that fact.

"Hi, from the world's biggest polluter!"

The man genuinely does not care.

bamabanjo

What the heck are you talking about? You are all over the palce. I spoke nothing of mandates other then suggesting that the Balfour declaration was meaningless. It was not a legal document as the Palestinians had no say in it.

>>In regards to your definitive atlas, I don't know what kind of colors you are talking about for states (huh?). You have also shifted your argument from saying Israel had the backing of the most powerful military then, to that it has its backing now.

Where did I ever mention such? I never spoke of any powerful Military backing israel. I never spoke of any atlas.

>>Despite your unwillingness to acknowledge the history of Jewish life in the land of Israel, and hold the Britannica Atlas as a primary foundation for your argument, I will answer at least some of your questions.

I never mentioned the Brittanica atlas.

>>I am prepared to deal with the other mandates; are you prepared to accept that the vast majority have no actual legal power because they were passed in the General Assembly as resolutions, with a small group of Arab oil cartel countries strong arming the non-aligned states, and bringing along a few predominantly Islamic states for good measure?

I never mentioned any votes in the UN nor did I ever refer to the UN in my post claiming the Palestinians were wrongfully driven from their lands.

Now that all said. My mother does have an Atlas printed in 1909. There is no country called israel on that Atlas. Indeed the region called Israel is in the greater color of the ottoman Empire and subdivided into an area called PALESTINE.

Maps going back centuries label the region as palestine. Israel only shows up on a map from 1948 onwards.

>>Today, the only people who continue to adopt it, against all scientific evidence / luck of evidence, are anti-Zionists and anti-Semites, who wish to denounce any connections between Jews and the land of Israel

One more time who the frick cares what happened 2000 years ago? Queen Elizabeth has the blood of the prophet in her veins, that hardly means Britain is the rightful owner of mecca.

Your own source claims the Jews Genetically no different then the palestinians . The Romans did not expel all jews. That a fact. It also a fact that Canaan was inhabited by others before the Hebrews invaded and those others had lived there longer then the State of Israel existed. How far back do you want to go to conclude who has rights to a land?

The Hungarians ethnic origins are on the plains of Mongolia. If they invaded Mongolia and drove its people off claiming the land as their own, they would be called invaders.

Just as those east Europeans who came to Palestine were invaders.

>>They were not invaders, but immigrants / refugees returning to their home land after many years in exile.

No one I know of anywhere has lived for 2000 years. Those people were born in Eastern Europe. Their grandfathers and great grandfathers were born there.

See the Hungarians who were driven west by a group of Invaders. Or Celts in Ireland driven from Gaul and then britain.

Is it your claim that Ireland has the right to invade France and drive its people off? That the irish would simply be exiles returning to their rightful land?

>>Judaism is also a nation. I'm a Jewish by nationality, and I have no religion (an atheist)

Judaism is a religous faith. It is not a nation anymore then Muslim or Christianity is a nation. Any person can convert to Judaism. This means it can not be an ethnic group.

That you refer to yourself as a jew, yet are atheist is meaningless just as The nazis calling themselves Aryans and heirs to all Europe was meaningless.

Please show me the Science that claims Jews as a race or ethnic group.

Under the laws of Judaism, all that is needed ot be declared jewish is a conversion to the faith under the authority of a Rabbi. A person of any race, or ethnic group can convert to judaism and be considered Jewish.

It is not a nation. It is not a race.

>>Not all Palestinians lived in Palestine for thousand years. Many of them immigrated in the 19-20th centuries due to the improved economic situation. A Palestinian girl who studied with me in University - her grand parents immigrated to Palestine from Lebanon in 1940, hardly thousands of years.

Who said all had? Now as to the example of your girl. Look at a map for petes sake. Poland is a heck of a lot further from Palestine then is Lebanon.

I suspect that girls ancestry was more closely linked to the region called palestine then was some person living in Warsaw in 1940.

The point made is there were people living in Palestine that were Arabs and Muslims when the british took over. The British census put the population of jews in that are at 10 percent the rest Arab/Muslim.

The rest of the jews came from EUROPE for the most part and to claim they had legal right because of something that may or may not have happened 2000 years ago is to be blunt...stupid.

>>Today, the only people who continue to adopt it, against all scientific evidence / luck of evidence, are anti-Zionists and anti-Semites, who wish to denounce any connections between Jews and the land of Israel.

Ad Hominen. I tend to find that people who can not argue the facts like to hide behind the labeling of others as Anti-semitic.

The palestinians are semitic. It rather absurd to lable them or any people who feel they were wrongfully driven off their lands as anti-semitic.

GwNorth-
You don't respond to any of my points with some weak justification that my comments are talking points; well I could say the same about your comments, no?! Straight out of Right Wing, white supremacist sites, no less. But I digress.

Despite your unwillingness to acknowledge the history of Jewish life in the land of Israel, and hold the Britannica Atlas as a primary foundation for your argument, I will answer at least some of your questions.

In regards to your definitive atlas, I don't know what kind of colors you are talking about for states (huh?). You have also shifted your argument from saying Israel had the backing of the most powerful military then, to that it has its backing now.

I am prepared to deal with the other mandates; are you prepared to accept that the vast majority have no actual legal power because they were passed in the General Assembly as resolutions, with a small group of Arab oil cartel countries strong arming the non-aligned states, and bringing along a few predominantly Islamic states for good measure? Do you think this many resolutions makes any sense, in any case? How many were passed on Rwanda or Darfur?

What is your definition of criminal enterprise? So you accept that the US existence is based on the same type of legitimacy? Jordan, by your rationale, has a natural right to exist, or Saudi? What rights do their citizens have under that form of monarchy? Do you believe in the divine right of kings as a basis for nationhood? Have you heard of King David?

Finally, what legal standing do you keep referring to? Israel exists, as a state, as voted on by the very UN you are so enamored by. Your efforts to deligitimize Israel based on its history are weak, and unsubstantiated by the standards all other nations are held to.

GwNorth "Judaism is a religous faith. It is not a race or an ethnic group."

Judaism is also a nation. I'm Jewish by nationality, and I have no religion (an atheist)

---

GwNorth "The majority of Jews that left Europe and emigrated to Plaestine were Jews descended from a peoples whose king had converted to Judaism some 1000 years before, this kingdom based in East Europe ."

Koestler's theory in his book "The 13th tribe" - that suggest that the Ashkenazi Jews are descendant to Khazars, had been contradicted by Genetic research and other scholars.

Today, the only people who continue to adopt it, against all scientific evidence / luck of evidence, are anti-Zionists and anti-Semites, who wish to denounce any connections between Jews and the land of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirteenth_Tribe

GwNorth "The peoples of Palestine that lived there when the east European jews invaded the lands had lived there for several thousand years. The jews of east Europe came from east Europe."

A few facts you missed:
- The Jews of eastern Europe are by large descendant to the Jews who were expelled from Judea by the Romans. (Both genetically and culturally)
- They were not invaders, but immigrants / refugees returning to their home land after many years in exile. (To be in invader you need a base of operation and an Army abroad, and invade by force)
- ~50% of the Israeli Jews are not from Eastern Europe.
- Not all Palestinians lived in Palestine for thousand years. Many of them immigrated in the 19-20th centuries due to the improved economic situation. A Palestinian girl who studied with me in University - her grand parents immigrated to Palestine from Lebanon in 1940, hardly thousands of years.

Jack Nelson Steward, "have a world atlas from 1941. That sweet lime green sliver of land there on the eastern shore of the Med is boldly labelled "Palestine." Just a fact.

What would you do if your country were simply taken from you by a minority population backed and supplied by the most powerful military in the world? Would YOU just quietly cede your nation and scatter to the winds?"
---
The map was constantly changed before and after 1941.
First of all, in 1941, the land wasn't called "Palestine", but "the British mandate of Palestine".
In 1922 Jordan was part of the British mandate of Palestine.
In 1917 It was part of the Ottoman Empire and was named Southern Syria.
In Biblical times it was called Judea, Israel and before that Canaan.
The first one who called the land Palestine, was the Roman emperor Adrian, after he crashed the Jewish rebellion in Judea, 135AD and killed / expelled all the Jewish population to exile.

As for your claim that the land was taken by force by a minority: In 1947, the UN decide to divide Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews were the majority in the part of Palestine which was assigned to the Jewish state.

Iran is a very beautiful country, please see the photo gallery. I hope there is no war, Peace out!

http://www.pbase.com/k_amj/throughout_iran&page=all

The above photo gallery is the 3rd most popular gallery on pbase.com.

Enjoy it!

veracity, "Simple criteria, (for chosing a candidate for boycott)

IF ____ war criminal
THEN __ no commerce"

Am I to understand that you boycott Russia (for what they did in Chechnya), USA and UK (For Iraq), Turkey (For Kurdistan and Cyprus), China (For Tibet), Morocco (Spanish Sahara), Syria (For Lebanon) Iran (For Kurdistan and Bushehr), and India (Kashmir)?

Am I to understand you boycott the Hamas (for what they do in Shderot)?

I'm just asking to know if you are consistent with your boycott or if maybe your criteria is somewhat different.

forextrader, "Letto, you are the true mass murder war criminal wannabe"

I think all humans and all nations have equal rights. I don't want anyone to die or be displaced against his/her will.

You forextrader do.

Littlebrother there's been a lot of analogies about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but that's the first I've ever seen a comparison to the Wizard of Oz. Maybe if we click our heels we can get out of this mess..... What do you think:)?

Judaism is a religous faith. It is not a race or an ethnic group. Sammy Davis Junior was jewish...Thta harly means his ancestors were from the region called Palestine.

If I convert to the faith of Judaism, under The laws of Israel I am entitled to move to israel and become a citizen.

The Palestinians who were born there and driven off and into refugees camps have no rights to return to Israel.

This is asinine. It like my converting to the Worship of odin, then moving to Sweden to claim the lands my own and telling everyone else to get out.

The original hebrews were a semitic peoples JUST like the Palestinians.

The majority of Jews that left Europe and emigrated to Plaestine were Jews descended from a peoples whose king had converted to Judaism some 1000 years before, this kingdom based in East Europe .

Thew Balfour declaration was a statement issued by the british Empire disbursing lands they had no legal right to disburse.

It is akin to Russia stating Florida now a homeland for Chechnyans.

Bama, if you are going to invoke "other mandates" and resolutions and such you must be prepared to deal with the sixty or so "other mandates" and resolutions and such that the State of Israel is currently ignoring.

The questionable prospect that the Jews are the most oppressed minority in history, even if true, doesn't give that minority the right to steal a nation from another people. This is a classic guilt manipulation offered in support of the State of Israel.

Again, the Jews were a minority population in Palestine, as they were in many, many other places. This doesn't give them title to the land. Where the Jews consider themselves to be from has no legal standing and they never had a "right to this piece of land" to abandon. If I "consider" myself to be from your house, I still don't have the right to take it.

The United States was more brutal and more successful in its purge of the indigenous population of its intended territory. The world was not so easily informed about what was going on then as it is now and we used our military against them directly and accomplished a nearly completely successful genocide. As to the right of the United States to exist? You have a point.

Title always is altered by how far back into history one is willing to look. If you go far enough back everything belonged to immigrating Africans.

My atlas is fine... put out by a little company called "Britannica." You may have heard of them.

I did recall incorrectly. There are several colors to note different states on the map. I was NOT incorrect that the entire territory presently occupied by the State of Israel is clearly called "Palestine."

You drag up tired old specious talking points from all over. Here's the bottom line: A minority population in a place called Palestine was granted permission to establish a country on that land based on language in their religious texts and the crushing guilt of the west for knowingly allowing a Fascist state in Europe to attempt the century's most technologically advanced genocide.

Israel is a criminal enterprise occupying stolen land.

The State of Israel flies American helicopters, fires American artillery, drops American cluster bombs, shoots American rockets and is backstopped by a nuclear-armed contingent of the American military. There is almost no likelihood at all that Israel's nuclear weapons are not at least of American design, if not just plain American manufacture.

The State of Israel is an artificial imposition in Arab territory and the United States' support and protection of it is the root of most if not all the enmity between Islam and the United States.

Israel is quite likely to be the greatest disaster in Jewish history and may be the catalyst for the greatest disaster in human history.

GWNorth-
You say Balfour is meaningless. Do you also deny other mandates that have an internationally accepted status? Did I say that a "state" of Palestine shouldn't exist. No- what I said is that it has not ever existed, including during the period when Israel came into existence.

I would ask again, do you support national liberation for every minority group but the Jews, perhaps the most oppressed minority in history? Do you support violence by all oppressed minorities except Jews? Some were more comfortable when Jewish communities were the stepstools for the world, and pogroms could come and go without resistance.

Furthermore, I don't think that my list was the extent of Jewish rights in the land of Palestine. Of course it extends to the prior existence of Jews in the land of Israel, and their ongoing presence there throughout the period of the Diaspora.

Your statement is that Jews "invaded" and had no rights. What period of time do you believe there were no Jews in the area? Also, do you support Mexican immigration into the United States? Do you support Arab expansion into North Africa, displacing Berbers, Greeks, and Africans (ongoing in Darfur BTW). But then Jews are unlike these groups, as there is the obvious history of the Jewish connection to the land of Israel. How does any immigrant establish rights? Do you give special rights to Arabs that immigrated into Palestine at the same time as Jews from Europe? When is your cutoff date for the right to live in Palestine?

In terms of your analogy with the Sioux; Jews are from Judea(at least spiritually if not through actual ancestry), which is right where it has been since before the Arab conquest. Throughout the Diaspora, Jews never abandoned their right to this piece of land, or their hope for their eventual return.

Finally, I'm not sure I understand your concluding statement, which contradicts your first- who has the rights in the land mass of America- the United States, with its history of how it established its sovereignty, or Indians, in which case why does the US have any "right" to exist? Were the ancestors of Europeans here 2000 years ago, constantly expelled from other lands, before finally returning? Do you have any support that the entire mass of Palestinians and their ancestors have been there for "several thousand years?"

GwNorth, you responded to bamabanjo's latest posting with:
The country called the United States of America has existed on maps for a shorter period of history then has the region called palestine, which was referred to as Palestine in Roman times. Therefore by your logic the United States of America should not exist.

??? That statement makes no sense. Please clarify.

Once upon a time, the victorious Allied hegemony scratched its chin and thoughtfully considered the humanitarian question of the welfare of the Jewish population in Europe decimated in the Holocaust.

A haven, a refuge, a secure place... and a weregild, too.

Of course, the lordly and magnanimous leaders had no land of their OWN for this purpose-- not quite the ticket, eh, old chap?-- but the ancient Jewish desert homeland was just THERE for the TAKING. It was a win-win prospect.

And so the State of Israel burst upon the Middle East with all of the abandon and grace of Dorothy's house falling from the tornado onto Munchkinland.

From there, the story takes a different turn; the analogy would require that instead of being killed, the Wicked Witch of the East simply moved in with Dorothy. And from that day on, it was a house divided: decent, good-hearted Dorothy hoping to be a good neighbor; the Witch bent on seizing land and clearing out those pesky aboriginies.

The End? :?:

Bamabanjo

The country called the United States of America has existed on maps for a shorter period of history then has the region called palestine, which was referred to as Palestine in Roman times.

Therefore by your logic the United States of America should not exist.

The balfour declaration is absolutley meaningless. Who the heck cares what the balfour declaration states?

This is akin to the British Empire proclaiming that half the Continental landmass of North America belonged to the Hudsons bay Company.

The peoples of Palestine that lived there when the east European jews invaded the lands had lived there for several thousand years. The jews of east Europe came from east Europe.

They had no claim to the lands that the Palestinians were living on and had been living on continously for several thousand years. NONE.

The land was stolen from the palestinains, plane and simple and one does not have to be a "Country" to be a people.

The Sioux of the American plains are Sioux. They have been there a lot longer then white european settlers from Europe. That hardly means the Sioux do not exist or never have existed.

Jack Nelson-
Check your "atlas" again. Never has been a nation of Palestine. In the 20th century there was the Ottoman Empire, then British Mandate Palestine (which had as part of its mission the Balfour declaration, which called for the creation of a homeland for the Jews), then Israel and territories occupied by Jordan, Egypt, and then in 1967 Israel. More likely the atlas says Judea and Samaria, as those have been the accepted names for these areas for much longer than Palestine (which was Rome's name for it, after the Phillistines, Judea's ancient enemy, in an effort to erase any Jewish connections).

I also don't know which powerful military in the world you are describing as having backed Israel gain independence. At that time, Israel's largest arms supplier was probably Czechoslovakia, hardly that which you describe.

Theft of the entire country- that conveniently leaves out the existing Jewish population, the extensive land sales to Palestinian Jews, the former state lands that belonged to the sovereign, the Balfour declaration and Peel commission (that called in one way or another for a majority Jewish state), and the Arab population that remains, both within Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. Then there is the inconvenient fact that the Arab countries invaded and tried to wipe out the fledgling Jewish state. So while you could try to make some sort of argument about the justness of these events, you could hardly make the statement that an entire state was stolen. In any case it is a fact, with 6 million Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Arab Jews plus ~ 3-4 million Arab Christians and Muslims; what are you proposing?

curmudgeon99-
If you have specific questions I may be able to provide them, but I'm sure you can understand that identifying links for everything I've said, when you could just as easily Google them for yourself, isn't going to be how I spend my time. This is just a hobby; not an obsession.

I strongly oppose anti-Jewish violence - especially the violence Israel carries out preemptively against people who happen to be Anti-Israel and dubbed ant-Jewish by the zionists.

That's anti-Jewish violence.

Bamabanjo - could appreciate your thoughts more if they were backed by facts.

Damn, I must learn how to type. Typos AMOK!

Either israel attacks Iran[US right behind 'ya]or Iran gets to make a sow of it. Either way just whom is going bto PREVENT an attack? _________________, exactly.
I am so done with this government, yet a ray of Sunshine, the Federal Courts in the District overthrew the renter's at 1600's request to, "Keep their visitor's log a secret", so now the MURDERER and his band of not-so-merry men/womAn do not want the visitors log known?
When a woman in reply to me behaving quite angered, dismayed and all around pissed off after FISA, me:rant, That's it they redacted the Fourth Amendment, I've...", her, "What's the Fourth Amendment?", a woman, not a 30 something. I said, "best you not know, Okay?".
I suppose I'll go to Berlin then the rails to Amsterdam, if I can get a ticket with my points, price has tripled since December, '07.
I still do have the right to snark...

Yes, yes, once again the portrayal of Israel as the innocent victim of irrational Arab hatred, overlooking the still unresolved FACT that the State of Israel is founded ON the country known as Palestine.

I have a world atlas from 1941. That sweet lime green sliver of land there on the eastern shore of the Med is boldly labelled "Palestine." Just a fact.

What would you do if your country were simply taken from you by a minority population backed and supplied by the most powerful military in the world? Would YOU just quietly cede your nation and scatter to the winds?

Address the initial theft of an entire country.

There's where the taproot of the problems in the Middle East is sunk.

To bottle- yes, true progressives can recognize that Iran is an ancient civilization worthy in some ways of respect; but you can't avoid the madness of the Iranian regime as well. Resolving the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is subject to past peace agreements, in which Palestinians forsook violence, and Israel handed over large chunks of the territories for Palestinian self-governance. In the meantime, Israel's occupation of the remaining Area C territories isn't illegal- just subject to international standards. In that light, defending Israelis from terrorism, and even intervening in the territories to stop attacks is justified under the rules of occupation. Israel didn't go back into Areas A and B for several years, or start building the barrier, until Arafat et al. proved their inability to govern effectively, or willingness to act against terrorism.

Palestinians recognize Israel, it's the fascist f_ks on this site that don't, and continue to parrot their long term WHITE SUPREMACIST agenda to kill Jews. By my quick scan, I would say this includes in various forms in this column alone Riddimboy, forextrader, criticalthinktank, Huck, motamanx, corpswave66, yap.chongyee, hedology, turce, ThinkForYourself, robinea, biwee, and FVhorn. Between them they have tried to justify destroying Israel or killing Jews, for being Jews, diminished their Jewishness through the Khazar claims, claim they control American foreign policy through "plants" because they have Jewish names, compared to Israel to Germany, said Israel only has a war based economy (ignoring hightech, medical supplies, irrigation,etc.)…

FVhorn- why would the American Jewish community have inside information, and why are they telling you? Veracity- your claim that news about Israel is throttled down has been shown as a sham; your hyperbolic, high falutin' sounding rhetoric rings hollow alongside your Jew hating broadsides, anyway.

Leftists shouldn't countenance this rhetoric, or behavior- any more than being critical of Israel's negative actions in the territories. This of course, in the interest of balance, has to be seen through the overall Middle East context, which is in a battle with extremist fascists justifying their actions with Islamic scripture, regularly cited in government sponsored media, that calls Jews sons of apes and pigs, and says rocks cry out to nearby Muslims to kill Jews. And that at the end of days Muslims will kill Jews.

In short, Israelis have plenty of reasons to be concerned, and I hope that progressives oppose anti-Jewish violence and rhetoric just as much as any other type of violence and negative rhetoric. I agree with others that hopefully the international community can come to its senses, get around Bush who is actually in bed with the Iranians (how else to explain taking out their two biggest Sunni enemies- Saddam and the Taliban), and resolve all outstanding issues without violence. In the meantime, I support peace, justice and truth, wherever they are in need throughout the world.

With all due respect to the well meaning posters on this site, ignoring the fact that Iran has pushed the battle with Israel, and not vice versa, is pure ignorance. Iran's rhetoric(death to Israel) is unmistakable, and not all that different from the WHITE, I mean RIGHT wing MFers that post hateful BS to these boards. Furthermore, Iran's arming and support of Hamas and Hezbollah is an unavoidable fact. Syria, Iran's ally, hosts the headquarters of many of the terrorist groups that attack Israeli citizens. Hamas continues to violate the terms of its ceasefire with Israel with rocket attacks. Hezbollah violates its ceasefire by moving missiles (currently 3X as many as before the last war) south of the Litani River. Iran tests long range missiles (although it lies about their success with Photoshopped pictures), and then states that Israel should be bombed, and neighboring Palestinians would just be unfortunate casualties.

People like Cedar would criticize Israel for supposedly bombing civilians, while totally ignoring the missiles intentionally launched at civilians from Lebanon during that war, as well as the cross border attack (from Lebanon into Israel) that precipitated it.

whatever4 –
I think you make some accurate points about the situation in the territories, but you are also making judgments based only on seeing one side of the story. For example, settlers throw rocks? Their children are vile? Palestinians put their kids on the front lines as rock throwers, proudly. Any rocks thrown by Israelis are chump change. They hate Jesus? That's why I lump you in with the X-tian identity, Supremacists described below.

I don't know what videos you are talking about, but many so called peacemakers are actually provocateurs, discouraging good relations between different religious communities, especially in Hebron. In terms of the difficulties of travel, I refer back to a prior post. Checkpoints didn't exist before the establishment of the PA, and in particular the second intefada and suicide bombing. A Nabulsian (someone from Nablus) could go the club in Tel Aviv, and drive home again, with nothing in the way. Just like an Israeli could visit the Market in Hebron, and go back home to Beersheva. Maybe those were the days, before the creation of the PA divided the area between the Jordan and the Mediterranean into a potentially unmanageable mélange of territories, overlapping authorities, and often weak security and disconnected economies. I know there are certainly many Palestinians and Israelis who remember this period before fences, walls and barriers fondly (as do I), although as a supporter (at the time) of the Oslo process, getting rid of the PA and going back to the former situation is certainly a hard position to accept, just as returning to the period of daily, often multiple, suicide bombings in Jerusalem is just as unacceptable.

Thanks and peace Veracity for your kind words and for standing up against Zionist malinformation. Peace and respects to ThinkForYourself also.

When Iran is bombed the stock market will go into freefall. That will be the time to pick up some bargains in the stock market. But what to buy? Monsanto has been doing well lately...

Ardee: If you're still around (LOTS of unease over the possible use again of pre-emptive war based on lies is what this is.)

Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency, and the American intel agencies (16 of them I believe) that produced the National Intelligence Estimate both say the Iran is producing energy only to the low levels required for peaceful use. The IAEA made at least a dozen unannounced inspections over the past year or so and found no equipment capable of the higher enrichment needed for weapons.

Iran is legally and morally entitled to develop nuclear energy for peaceful uses. It is also morally and legally entitled to defend itself with force IF force is used against them.

Bush, Cheney, McCain, Rice, Lieberman et al, and the Israelis all know this. There seems, however, to be a high degree of paranoia involved, and an invasion is seen as insurance against Iran switching to weapons production at some time in the future. Hence, we must stop them now, to which I can only say Good grief!!!!!! (Why the Congress listens to the administration instead of the IAEA is a real mystery.)

Wow, I don't read much optimizm here. A lot of fearsom prediction. I don't think that a single sole, wrote about the current peace talks underway with the Iranians. Under EU leadership, the West has offered a very generous and nearly unrefuseable offer to the Iranians. Can we wait for their answer and the completion of negotiations before we blow-up the world?

BTW, paranoia is an affliction that has permiated people around the world. Paranoia begets hate and the two sickness together are explosive. Paranoia is very common amoungst alcoholics and is hardly recognizable in a world of alcoholics.
Americans thrive on hate and neocons count on it.

verse 3

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

F O R E X T R A D E R,

I love your subtle response, and I suggest we PROMOTE you to _ FIVE_X_TRADER _ status.

I also blasted _LETTO_ thrice ( with his "swan" songs ):verse 1

verse 2

I see references in the blog to international law. Shrubco doesn't give a rat's butt about law, and anyone watching for the last 7.5 years might've noticed that.

If the rest of the reference to violating International laws has to do with implying that some (magical or real) third party will step in and arrest the corpo-fascists, then where have they been up 'til this point??

Is Shrubco capable of using what ever weapons the weasels deem necessary, on any country they and the PNAC henchmen choose? I think they've already answered that.

Are Shrub or Dickless Cheney humble enough to heed warnings from any third-party nation or source of moral leadership? I don't think so.

So, the mental midgets in power, including the spineless Dems in the Congress, will either sit by, possibly facilitating WWIII, or they won't.

I mean, we ARE talking about a country (the majority of Amerikan citizens) that sat passively by, while their own government gutted the Bill of Rights, violated international law, and committed any other damned thing that they wished to. For no other reasons than they're temporarily comfortable in their credit-card-purchased debt, they fear necessary revolution, or they're still frightened by their own shadows (or all three).

If it comes, we'll possibly glow in the dark for a bit. If it doesn't, we'll go shopping at K-Mart or Wal-Mart. Time will tell.

What ever the outcome, it's been real...

America has gotten the government that her apathetic, frightened-of-revolution (and their own shadows) masses deserve, for having put their own immediate selfish interests ahead of the issues of long-crafted princples and proper boundaries.

May they all be enjoying a 'blue-light special' when the heat/blast wave strikes.

Cannuckistani_Joe writes: "Israel should be careful with it's saber rattling. Another country might feel the need to preempt them!"

It's that kind of ill-informed comment that will lead to an attack on Iran.

No country in the Middle East is capable of "pre-empting" an Israeli military attack, let alone has the desire to do so. Israel is backed by a superpower. Israel is also a strong country, not at all an isolated, frightened, and vulnerable nation, as Israel likes to portray itself.

In 1967, British and American intelligence agencies estimated that Israel could defeat all of its neighbors in a war in about a week. Then came the six-day war, which Israel started by firing the first shot at Egypt. It knew it would win, and it saw in a conflict the opportunity to grab more land from the Palestinians. So, Israeli Prime Minister, Levi Eshkol, went for it - while the pretext was still present!

So, Cannuckistani_Joe, unless you want another war (and suffering aside, it's actually what's needed to wake Americans up and temper future U.S. military aggression), I wouldn't go around making such remarks, if I were you.

(Although, actually, what you or I say will have no impact WHATSOEVER on world events).

Israel should be careful with it's saber rattling. Another country might feel the need to preempt them! Etc, etc,...

vfhorn you say your sources say Israel will attack....

OK If you are correct we can say we heard it first on Common Dreams...

Who can argue with confidential info...

Believe what you want and dig it!

I don't believe that Israel is that suicidal.
Now you say you will prove me wrong....
Time will tell.

Letto: "forextrader is a mass murder war criminal wannabe who wants to see millions of innocent people killed and / or displaced against their will. Are you sure you're with him?"

And that coming from a Zionist troll muthafucka who supports a phony state run by gangsters and thugs engaging in state supported terrorism against the rightful inhabitants of Palestine. Letto, you are the true mass murder war criminal wannabe so don't be projecting your pathological world view on me. I say respects to President Achmedinejad for standing up against psychopathic Zionism.

Jim Glover asks why Israel would hint it might do something against its own interests, and then posits that it must(!) be disinformation... they can't possibly mean it, could they? Well, for sure, disinformation abounds, but I recall some saber rattling not so long ago made by one crazyman called Bush who 'hinted' and 'hinted' and then DID ATTACK!

Israel is a garrison state. Everyone of age is in the Army. Their Fort Apache status guarantees paranoia. Ever hear of the biblical character Sampson? If Israel sees itslf going down, its leaders have already promised to take the world down with it, thanks to the three hundred nuclear weapons it has, courtesy of the USA and the Zionist plants in the American government from Henry Kissinger on through Wolfowitz. And I don't think too much oil will be coming out of the radiation zone the Middle East will become if that happens. Apart from the planetary mass death aspect of it.

Israel's very existence depends on its manipulation of the American government in the areas of Israeli concern, from its weaponry to its welfare funds lifeline to the elimination of its regional enemies. This is why I am very suspicious of Israeli intent, for its major concern is to bring the USA into its quarrels, aims and ends. An attack by Israel on Iran would most certainly drag the US into an all-out war with Iran. Another Israeli enemy will be taken out by its Uncle Sam. But who really knows where that action will lead us?

So, Jim, it is wrong to say that if they were planning on a peace Deal, saber rattling is just the hot preview ticket! Just look at the recent (century) past. Saber rattling usually means an attack is imminent.

And at this point, Iran would not believe any pretense of gestures of friendship, as the world has, because of the forked-tongue, sadly become far, far too cynical for that old switcheroo crap. That kind of crap is usually only played by leaders on their own people, as the people have a need to believe their leaders are not just some crazy sonsofbitches even if they are; for example, see the US of A. So the most credulous, or corrupt, of the population suspends disbelief. It only works within a country though; for example, see the US of A.

As for Israeli intent, I hear from people within the American Jewish community that an attack is actually about to happen. Whether by Israel or their US toady has yet to be determined. ETA: August - right around the Democratic National Convention.

I guess I don't see War Games as a sure sign of Armageddon... I have been accused of being the lone optimist... but every time they ask which Jews and WASPs want to nuke Iran? I don't see many Hands do you?

I don't assume nations are suicidal.... Iraq woke up the world.

Scaring yourself is bad for your Health.

jim glover
your rationalization - fairly widely believed - that declaring intent removes that particular intention, even if there is ambiguity concerning particulars, from being taken seriously by the larger community, is based on the premis of past "war strategy." in this moment of extreme uncertainty and outright fear, all bets are off.

there have never been any absolute guanentees of survivability or even of anything like peace in the history of humankind. most take for granted that somewhere in the world someone is killing, maiming, starving or otherwise inflicting enormous suffering on another or other individuals, or wanting to.

the more or less complete acceptance of this state of affairs has been brewing a more and more lethal climate wherein the insanity reaches previously unheard of proportions and the lack of "control" of the circumstances becomes more and more obvious. things tend to "spiral" out of "control" - we revert to animalistic "fight or flight" and yet as the hyper(stressed/insane) power we are, flight will seldom be a popular option.

so i submit, with all due respect, as i believe also in the merits of viewing these things in terms of "conventional wisdom" that the more positive senarios you offer are well within the range of possibility, still there is no reason whatsoever to assume that a line somewhere has not been crossed and that spiral has not simply started, but in the slow motion unfolding of events (but based on longer historical contexts, a virtual instant) is well out of "control". do not rest in any type of complacent overconfidence about the real world possibilities of certifiably lunatic "leaders" making that next very "regrettable" choice.

Well, of course, one should ask WHY the Israelis are so determined to start another unnecessary war of choice.
Many answers......first and foremost, the Israelis are determined to maintain dominance in the MidEast so Israel can continue to steal Palestinian lands and ignore UN Security Council Resolutions. Also, the Isrealis are, in truth, largely Ashkenazi Khazars who have no real connection to Palestine (read Hungarian Jew Koestler's book). To continue this scam, Israelis must feel so powerful that they will get away with it. Lastly, the Israelis OWN the cowards in the US Congress. Just look at the USS Liberty. Only when the evil yoke of Zionism is thrown off will Americans be free again.

Hinting at a preemptive attack is insane...only a angry school kid would come up with such a plan... It prevents Israel from claiming that Iraq started it... the world is now waiting to blame the next war on Israel and the USA....

So Why would Israel "hint" that it might do something totally against its own and the whole worlds interest??? ....

Have you ever heard of "Dis information"!

If they were planning on a peace Deal, saber rattling is just the hot preview ticket! If they were planning on a surprise attack, they would be shaking Iran's hand. Because this is a psyops and real War this is fundamental war strategy....

Now if we are all gonna speculate, somebody's gotta jump outta this Common Dreams funk of the worlds gone mad because they don't listen! Dig it People....We are winnin' and Cheer up... things could be worse!

We'll accelerate our demise one way or the other.

dcbeltway July 11th, 2008 10:56 pm
"we don't get our oil from Iran."

I am well aware of that... But, that does not answer my question.

"Quotes from the article":

"No one should doubt US resolve, said Condoleezza Rice, the Secretary of State, on a visit to Georgia."

What a laugh! American "resolve" is and has been always unpredictable - and everybody knows it!

"We are sending a message to Iran that we will defend American interests and the interests of our allies."

Actually what we are doing is defending 'interests that we assert' in the region.

"Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, noted pointedly -- Israel 'is not afraid' to take action when its vital security interests are at stake"."

"not afraid"? What a laugh! Without American power, Israel would be a non-player in the Middle East - a mere pipsqueak!

"a pre-emptive attack, by the US at least, is most unlikely.--- Gates warned, among them possible closure of the oil lifeline through the Strait of Hormuz, the risk of generalised war in the Middle East"

What is left unsaid is what would be the reaction in the world (EU, Russia, China, Japan, etc, should oil supplies be cut off as a result of American arrogance and stupidity.

"Pentagon commanders too do not want to plunge the country's overstretched armed forces into another war. An attack would be "extremely stressful" for US forces, Admiral Michael Mullen, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and the country's top uniformed officer, warned a few days ago."

That is another hope for America - that the American military will refuse to obey orders from their shithead excuse for a "commander in chief".

"if the Bush administration is to strike, it probably has to do so before the general election campaign moves into high gear this autumn."

Yes, and therein lies the biggest danger to America. It is very possible that nothing could stop Bush from pulling off an attack on Iran if it is done without further warning.

"This is another reason for Israel, to act sooner rather than later, even alone and without the explicit collaboration of the US."

Have no fear of that. Israel would not dare to act alone - and without explicit consent of the U.S.

Chossudovsky's article puts the economic factors in perspective:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9501

Russia is loving the increase in oil based energy costs.

But...didn't Russia say an attack on Iran would be as an attack on Russia? Didn't they say that less than a year ago, as part of a speech, while visiting another nation? I wish I could remember, but I remember the important part.

Will Russia attack us if we attack Iran, or if we help Israel attack Iran?

It's even more insane an idea than Iraq was, impossible as that is. And Iran hasn't attacked anyone, ever, right? Jeez. Yeah, that's us, land of the free, home of the brave.

One other thing, about hating Israel...from what I've seen about how settlers treat Palistinians, all I can say is, I'd hate Israel too. I'm sorry, but it's true, and anyone that doesn't see that simply hasn't taken a good look at the situation. What they do to those people and their property, how they chop up property and make travel difficult. I saw video of women, grown women MOTHERS throwing ROCKS at school children. Yes, it's true, they do that. Those "settlers" are fanatics. I saw boys throwing rocks at teachers. No one does anything to stop it. A little old british lady was standing in the way, yelling at soldiers doing nothing to stop it. Brave gal. A boy throwing a rock at a Muslim women carrying her baby, and the father of the boy did NOTHING. Throwing rocks at babies. That's what they deal with, aside from shortages of water and food and just about anything else that matters.

It's horrible, and it happens all the time. So, I can say I'm quite sure that if I were the target of that amount of hatred and injustice and violence at the hands of people who have decided they own the land they call Israel, I'm sure I'd hate them too.

Throwing rocks at kids, how do these people live with themselves??? I realize I can't paint all the Israelies this way, and I'm sure most people wouldn't do such things. But I swear, were I living in a house that settlers threw rocks at every day...man, I'd hate them too. I would. Their fanatical children are VILE. I can't see how anyone wouldn't see it that way. And I'd say ALL KINDS of things about Israel and those settlers. Those rock-throwing bastards. Big rocks too, not little pieces of gravel. They ought to be ashamed. Oh, and apparently some of them don't like Jesus. Don't ask me why I find that funny. I guess it's all the neocons, and them their best friends, hating Jesus, what a hoot.

Israel. Ha. No better than us at all. For now, I just hope they aren't dumb enough to attack Iran. Because they surely aren't sane. Here's hoping they aren't stupid too.

Clark Kent " Englehart assumes rational decision-making on the part of the Bush administration. I wouldn't bet on it"

This was a good article but your concern is a valid one. Another article by Pepe Escobar that readers here may find informative is on Asia Times:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JG11Ak01.html

There may still be enough pragmatic individuals in enough administrative positions of power to cool opportunists and Evangelical Christian Rapture creationists and their fundamentalist equivalents in Iran and Israel and in so doing keep them at a low boil. Sadly,it will only take one 9/11 type incident, arranged or otherwise, to make them irrelevant and for self-fulfilling prophecies to take over. Have these Rapture believers ever considered they might be jumping the gun?

Rapturosis, also known as Armageddonosis should, in my opinion, be added to the list of identifiable mental illnesses; one that can be treated with heavy doses of reality and other blind belief antidotes -deprogramming in effect.

Do you know why a dog licks its own dick?

Answer: Because it can.

I do not understand the mindset that would make Israel more of a pariah state than they are already. After Israel attacks Iran we will most likely see greater instability in Iraq and oil prices spiking to over $200/barrel-not to mention demonstrations and attacks throughout the world. The pain this would cause would be felt worldwide and the world would rally around Israel's destruction. I know some people want this to happen-evangelicals come to mind-but how can Israel think this will endear them to the greater world outside Islam?

Lennon:

"But if you want money for minds that hate, all I can tell you, brother, is, you'll have to wait."

Gandhi:

"An eye for an eye simply will make the whole world blind."

Buddha:

"What we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage.

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule."

For all the folks here at CD who believe in Peace, we need to calmly figure out ways to stop this madness.We are scaring the shit out of each other! Saying that Israel needs to die, is no better than telling the Muslims that they must die. We're all brothers and sisters on this land called earth, working to see innocent civilians die because there governments are evil is not helping matters! Do I think Bush and Company are evil? You Bet! Olmert and his brand of zionism is evil, the more radicalized parts of Islam are just as evil.
For every evil act, an act of goodness and love must replace it...Power and money seem to go hand in hand. I have no ready made answers, but perhaps if we could reach out to the commom people of other countries and assure them that we are againist War and build friendships it might help the world,at least we'll feel better knowing we tried to stop the madness as the bombs rain down!

On one level this is about oil & world domination, but please remember that these crypto-facists are also religious fanatics. They believe that, before the messiah can return, Armageddon must occur. Their warped interpretation of a collection of ancient writings actually has the power to bring this about. This is the religious basis for their actions.

Hazel Henderson wrote last century that the collapse of the global economy is inevitable. Those that have power and financial dominance will go to any length to maintain their position, even to the point of destroying their children and their children's children. Sound like today?

On one level this is about oil & world domination, but please remember that these crypto-facists are also religious fanatics. They believe that, before the messiah can return, Armageddon must occur. Their warped interpretation of a collection of ancient writings actually has the power to bring this about. This is the religious basis for their actions.
Hazel Henderson wrote last century that the collapse of the global economy is inevitable. Those that have power and financial dominance will go to any length to maintain their position, even to the point of destroying their children and their children's children. Sound like today?

ThinkForYourself, "I'm with forextrader (July 11th 10:09 pm)."

forextrader is a mass murder war criminal wannabe who wants to see millions of innocent people killed and / or displaced against their will. Are you sure you're with him?

forextrader July 7th, 2008 3:52 pm
All I can say is FUCK "ISRAEL".

forextrader May 15th, 2008 4:00 pm
My message to "Isareal" on it's 60th "anniversary". Happy birthday you land stealing jerks! May you not see 61!

forextrader May 15th, 2008 4:02 pm
Palestinians are paying a debt they never owed in the first place. Relocate "Israel" to Germany, Austria, Brooklyn, Miami Beach or the damn Moon!

forextrader May 9th, 2008 11:21 am
mikep: screw your emotional blackmail and screw you for playing the phony "anti-Semite" card. Israel is a phantom nation and it needs to be exorcised from Palestine once and for all. Hamas has been more than kind.

robinea "It's (Israel's) only real economy in the world market is its military and its weapons manufacturers."

Not true.

Israel's total export (2006) was above 41 billions
Israel's weapons export (2006) was 258 million.

http://www.cbs.gov.il/reader/?MIval=cw_usr_view_SHTML&ID=461
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_trade

Bush launched 'Shock and Awe' on Iraq, a brutalized and blockaded country, which didn't even have a single functioning fighter jet in its air force or a ship in its navy..., and he and millions of American swaggered in bellicose unison.
What will attacking a well armed nation of over 70 million with broad borders and a large battle-tested military do to America's economic crisis? Iranians will fight back. After seeing the slaughter and mutilation of millions of Iraqi civilians under US occupation...imagine what kind of resistance the Iranian soldiers and the masses of young Iranians are going to mount. The US military will be consumed in the process - having no real mass support at home, it will be a large, under-funded, demoralized, mercenary force despised and feared domestically and internationally. The US economy will not benefit in from a pre-emptive air-strike against Iran. A national conscription would be both necessary and impossible. But then why did the US Congress and Senate recently pass resolutions in virtually identical words (written by AIPAC operatives) calling for a military blockade of all goods and supplies entering and leaving Iran by air,sea and land - an aggressive act of war not unlike a pre-emptive attack?

Israel, on the other hand, is incapable of any other course of action but aggressive military confrontation and pre-emptive attacks. It lacks a viable civilian economy and skilled and disciplined, productive work force. It's only real economy in the world market is its military and its weapons manufacturers. It is a foregone conclusion that the ethnically self-defined, Jewish State will have to attack its non-Jewish competitors in the region - having no other capacity as a society and absolutely no inclination to diplomacy and trade.

This is a very doable operation for Israel with "bunker buster" nukes and "surgical" nuclear attacks to take down Iranian nuke facilities with minimum collateral damage. They should go for it. This could be called the final solution.

Donkey, I remember "neutron bombs" that were relatively blast free but generated radiation that supposedly would kill living things and leave the infrastructure standing. Is that what you're talking about?

By the way ...

I was not, and AM not, and WILL not EVER advocate the use of such weapons. I agree with you that their use, or even advocacy of their use is reprehensible.

Having re-read the post I can understand why someone might think I was actually describing a battle plan. I was not. In attempting to be ironic or facetious I was considering how such an attack might happen: What could happen if Israel attacked Iran and how we COULD, with this collection of Neo-con zealots in power, if we HAD the kinds of weapons I was describing, possibly end up using nuclear weapons in response and what the effect might be.

Sorry. My mistake.

I went to Plum Village in 2004 and heard Thich Nhat Hanh say we all have to send positive energy to George Bush and anyone where we had anger built up. We must forgive. I was thinking "i'm never going to forgive my father for all his drinking", but he kept me thinking. Two years later, I called my dad after 12 years, and last year, I went to see him, and gave him a hug, and now we talk every week. He still drinks. It was a huge burden lifted off me, and my greatest accomplishment. This might not resonate with everyone, but I do think some type of spiritual shift, no matter what faith, can change anyone. So I pray that George Bush wakes up soon, and says no to any more violence, and tells anyone who is making decisions, "not on his watch". I pray for the strength to embrace the wonderful people all over the world. I had my own war going for 12 years, it was complete suffering.

To followup on my last post:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/911655.html

Bush is facing enormous domestic pressure as economy is in tatters and his popularity is at its all-time lowest. Olmert also has domestic problems as he is facing enormous legal inquiries involving own integrity. In order to divert their people's focus on to a different subject, they may most probably hit Iran. But then Iran is in the embrace of Russia which is providing Iran with military defence. Russia is known to possess military strength which is unknown to the rest of the world. A simple job of throwing a normal bomb at Iran can lead to a violent, bellicose, adverse reaction from Iran that will lead to an ultimate destruction of Israel and USA. Oil prices will climb to unprecedented levels and the whole world will be dragged into war one way or the other. Initiation of war can be controlled but not its consequences. In war, there is no one loser as both sides will lose. An unprepared Iran fought a war for a decade with US-equipped Saddam Hussain. Iran is not as easy as Iraq for USA. The consequences of Iraq are there for everyone to see. Similar to a defeat in Afghanistan led to USSR's destruction, a defeat in Iran and Iraq will lead to the destruction of USA and its 51st state in the middle east.

Imfedup we don't get our oil from Iran. Majority of America's oil comes from Canada and Mexico followed by Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. China buys Iran's oil. We don't get our oil from Iraq either. But guess who does:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=332835

By the way before 1979 that country got their oil from Iran.

if there is war with Iran, will we still hear the politicians say stupid things about America being the greatest nation? If it's always about money, can't they see that it won't last, or are these people just too old to change, and don't really care? Can we start throwing pies in any politician's face when they say "free economy"? Is anyone talking to our children in grade schools and telling them how competitive it is in China and India school systems of the same age? If America is the greatest nation, it would lead my example, without force, and be solving the worlds problems peacefully. If we are honest, we should all admit that we're a violent people acting pretty shallow the majority of the time. Even our words we exchange with each other can be small acts of violence.

Maybe the end is in fact near in 2012 as the Maya calender predicts. With assholes in power in the White House, and paranoid pricks in Israel, both trying to buly everyone, maybe nuclear China and Pakistan and Russia will go against US/Israeli imperialism.

I'm with forextrader (July 11th 10:09 pm).

Thank you shakker for the estimate.
$5 to $10 to produce at this point = $130+ per barrel in profit for Iran (Not a bad profit margin) I don't think even the pharmaceuticals at their best make that kind of spread. Don't they profit more from chaos than stability? They say no to the UN about nuclear weapons and the price goes up. They make more being renegade than playing nice.