What freedom?

It's pretty obvious to the outside observer, that the US government care not one iota for the Iraqi people. The US took it upon itself to destroy and occupy the country, therefore, they are responsible for caring for the Iraqi citizens. They've woefully neglected this duty.

Criminal neglect isn't reserved for Iraqi refugees, our Government has been hammering our nation and gutting our quality of life for years. Of course, many have profited immensely on the backs of others. So it is in Iraq.
After the 2000 coup and then the excuse to burn Afghanistan, the entire DHS was a gift from the Reich to Northrup Grumman. Tyranny and exploitation in the name of security, Dangerous paranoids have somehow been allowed to take the rudder, "war forever!" they'll shriek, as if some bad biblical dream from Leviticus is the exciting lifestyle they've always hoped for. Many Iraqis were an annoyance to be pushed out of the way, killed and marginalized so that the development and precious oil reserves could be controlled. For the likes of Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld won't they one day be our era's Himmler, Goebbles?

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

It's all over. I wonder how long before people find out.

POWER IS WEAKNESS

WEAKNESS IS POWER

Water, so soft and formlessly subtle, carved the Grand Canyon effortlessly.

NIETZSCHE says that "It's all over."
Is one's breathing over with the inward or outward movement ?

Is what we will loose so good as to encourage struggle against the tide that carries us to something truly amazing and transformational ?

Please do not push the river,
for it flows by itself

These are times that propel us to understand what it is that we VALUE, so how can this be a secret any longer ?

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

800 cats and dogs are euthanized EVERY HOUR in the US, every hour of the day, every day of the year....

Why do we want to import more dogs? There are plenty in shelters wanting a new home.

When the term 'marginalized' is used it has been separated from the economic aspect of 'profit margin'. Why are we so psychicly numb to this reality? What would happen if marginalized peoples were treated as one in power would like to be treated?

Early on, I used to keep wondering how much lower the US gov would be allowed to go before we Americans felt ashamed, or at least abused, and rebeled at what's being done in our name -- being done to us and to others too.

I finally stopped wondering because the answer always kept arriving in a day or two: We the People will let it go THIS much lower, and then THIS much lower still, and then THIS much lower still, still ... ad infinitum.

No point in wondering where something bottomless ends.

veracity----thank you for your breath of fresh air---I am choking on all the abominable things I keep seeing and hearing. Your reminders are important--especially to ones like me. Bless you!

… … … … … … … ☆_STAR_★ ◎F THE ♪♫_SEA_♪♫ … … … … … … …
I left you a poem

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

Well, of course the Iraqi's are to be dehumanized and treated as dogs! It's good ol' GENOCIDE, the neocon/AIPAC way. Why was John Negroponte, a seasoned organizer of death squads in Central America, sent to Baghdad in the first place?! The idea was to stir up the various factions from the very beginning, so that Iraq could be fractured and thereby looted and controlled through a weakened and divided state. We have a government beyond the pale which didn't blink an eye at murdering 3,000 of it's own citizens on 9-11 in a really horrifying spectacle, just to get the ball rolling.

I really do pray that this whole nightmare is coming closer and closer to being exposed and that those in our gov't, who have profitted from their greed and vanity in causing such terrible suffering will be brought down, both Republicans and Democrats. But it's 5 minutes to midnight, and it looks like we all may have to experience some terrible suffering before the wool is pulled from enough eyes. The system has devolved to the point where we have no representation, just a bunch of slavvering overlords. And I'm afraid Hobama would be just as willing to herd our asses on a bus or train to the FEMA camps as anyone.

Keep getting the word out. Someone posted a suggestion the other day about hitting newspapers (such as the St. Louis Post-Dispatch) and other publications--not just keeping the incestuous little CD "progressive" circle-jerk in motion. I come from a more liberal, even socialist set of sympathies. However, I voted for Ron Paul in the primaries, without feeling in the slightest that I was comprising my core values. There are a hell of a lot of good, eye's-wide-open conservatives, libertarians, and yes Christians out there (not to forget Jews and Muslims), who are aware that the most critical issue at this moment is how to stave off the sword of total fascism poised above our collective necks. Fight on and CONNECT, online and in the street. Here's a big Salute to Infowars, We Are Change, and all the 911 Truthers. And thank you Kucinich, Sheehan, Ventura and all those who are trying to make your
stands through the system. We need to shore up on all fronts because we are being attacked on all fronts.

These republican bastards don't give a rats ass about US citizens, why the hell should they show any concern for Iraiqi's? They're just good props for bush to point to on the balcony of the Congress, when he's making one of his BS state of the Union speeches.

iraqi dogs require minimal medical attention and do not have an opinion. they make the PERFECT refugees!!!

Didn't someone say that they are considering organizing a "Pitch Fork Brigade"?

I suspect that if we get enough people together that we can get a dxxxmn-good price on pitch forks from China wholesale.

"That more attention has been given to dogs than to people is a sad reminder of how, instead of liberating the Iraqis, the war has further dehumanised them."

I like animals, dogs, cats, etc. too, but I feel more responsible to try to help an Iraqi who didn't deserve the criminal attack on his/her country.

Why is it I don't hear about famous movie stars adopting Iraqi orphans? My hat is off to the Swedes who have accepted thousands of Iraqi refugees.

Yawn, zzzz. How do you say "so" in Arabic?

Heard it all before. Nothing will be done about this, ever. Only try to prevent the next war is the futile response.

Just like Suddam, we have doled out this same treatment to our own people-the American Indians, Blacks, Chicanos, Hippies, Japanese, et al. Remember all that hyperbole in low school about "Manifest Destiny?" Rearange the intent and it comes out spelling "Iraqi Freedom."

"We have a government beyond the pale which didn't blink an eye at murdering 3,000 of it's own citizens on 9-11 in a really horrifying spectacle, just to get the ball rolling.
I really do pray that this whole nightmare is coming closer and closer to being exposed and that those in our gov't, who have profited from their greed and vanity in causing such terrible suffering will be brought down, both Republicans and Democrats."

It's not that-much closer to "exposure"/Accountability than is [for Examples] the Rothschild manipulation of Nappy&theDuke (to nail-shut their final ascendancy over varied-Monarchies), or Pearl Harbor, or the sinking's of the Maine/Lusitania, the Archduke's-demise, or the Reichstag-fire, or the betrayals/plans for the proxy-war's in Korea/Vietnam/the-ME, or the assassinations of many prior-Presidents...
Our two-headed 'party-system' governs together, for the 'same-old-Interests' that have been string-pulling and Profiting for centuries now (rather than the Majority they still pretend to 'represent'). You might easily 'expose this Canard' for yourself, and Still -- but, don't expect suchlike to ever be "properly-Exposed and Accounted-for"...

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace"- I just hope there is a world left for our kids and their kids.

Positioning any positive action taken on behalf of animals against all the violence directed at humans is a cheap ploy. It is based on an underlying notion that there is a fixed amount of compassion and any expended on animals is less expended on humans. This is false. Rather, why not criticize the mainstream media's news focus on the handful of Iraqi children who are brought to this country to undergo medical treatment for war injuries while ignoring the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed, or the millions who have been displaced?

I am glad that a few animals and a few children have been spared at least some suffering. But I am not deluded into believing that these stories are somehow emblematic of American compassion. They need to be identified as what they are: propaganda aimed at masking the brutality of this occupation.

_ J _ P _,

Here, Here. Very well said, and clearly the PSYOPS stink of irrelevance
and subtle misdirection is nasty,

all the way UP to high heaven.Thank you.

We are constantly barraged and pummeled with the lying messages ofSCARCITY,

SEPARATENESS,

HATE & DEATH
( PATRIOTISM )While the reality is quite the opposite with the TRUTH ofABUNDANCE,

CONNECTEDNESS, &

LOVE & LIFE
( JUSTICE )We EACH have more than enough COMPASSION for all living beings.

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

W I L L I E _ B 3 7,

Thank you also, for your excellent comment and very powerful message of unconditional LOVE:"When the power of love
overcomes the love of power
the world will know peace"

P I S S A N T N O B O D Y,

You ask"what does the 'power of love' look like?"Perhaps like"Water,
so soft and formlessly subtle,
which carved the Grand Canyon

effortlessly."Wherefore do you think the power that builds galaxies comes forth, if it's not the LIFE force and LOVE of cosmic BE'ingness ?

Be the willow and not the oak,
or the winds might break your neck

To Veracity (and Lillulu and StaroftheSea):

I for one, appreciate the love / compassion which flows from you, into words, out into cyberspace, onto these boards, and elsewhere.

Someone asks what love looks like?

~ I think it looks like the selflessness of (eg) a parent putting their child before themselves. It looks like those who sacrifice themselves for a *real and honorable cause* (-not the insanities conjured by malefic leaders like Bush, Blair, Berlusconi, et al).
Maybe it looks very much like the faces of those Great Ones who have, throughout history, faced down the abysmal leaders of their time, because they loved humanity that much.

Love looks like us, as well!!
Even though here and in other places we frequently read / hear indignant, angry words, these words are often uttered by basically loving friends of ours, who see how horrifying our current leaders are, and how those devils are violating god's creation and harming millions of beings (animals as well as humans!) ~ and wrecking little planet Earth into the bargain...

I think at root we are Lovers, :)
~ we love the planet and the life upon it enough to **CARE** and want to turn the whole mess around!

And... maybe sometimes we get our noses too close to the exhaust fumes from the various Hells our abysmal leaders exude, - maybe getting somewhat poisoned by the stench produced by those crazed devils at work?

That's when the likes of Veracity and other 'peaceniks' (?) here come into their own. In their individual ways they remind us that if we lose our souls, our hearts, our compassionate natures, then we fall into the wrong camp and can then act just as badly / unadvisedly / harmfully...

___________

All the major spiritual teachers have taught that god (Allah, Spirit, -whatever) is LOVE, and we could do worse than emulate those Teachers, in trying to be as loving as we can to our fellow beings.

And no, this route is really NOT the easy option! Such *challenging* folk get crucified, vilified, cursed, maligned, slandered, abused, tortured, raped and assassinated and more... But hey, all that's not forgot when the history books get written, ~ their exemplary courage inspires, and is celebrated and emulated many centuries later...

** Love builds worlds, hatred only ever destroys them. **

I know it's often dammed hard, but let's carry on being *constructive* around here? There's several important pay-offs from that approach:

1. We (personally) feel better in ourselves, -and are thus more ACTIVE and creative.

2. We inspire others into action more. ( -vide: MLK, Ghandi, Cindy Sheehan et al !)

3. We are then less likely to make gross mistakes, ~ such as coming to the (false) conclusion that the only way to defeat the lunatics in power is to mess with the same old devils of **Hatred & Violence.**

Many thanks to those who seek to inspire and raise consciousness. Yours are not wasted words, -- they DO find their mark!

As starofthesea said:: ~ Bless You!

xx
UCD

UN COMMON DREAMS: Thanks for guiding us posters back to the TRUTH of the heart. Our words too often reflect the inherent dualities of our minds; and it only through a return to the heart/center, that UNDERSTANDING, as well as the peace that passeth understanding, is cultivated.

U N _ C O M M O N _ D R E A M S ___ & ___ S I O U X R O S E

As in "Steel Magnolias", you've got me going == laughter through tears ==.

It is a BLESSING to have you as well ( "deeply" felt ), with the purity of gong harmoniously resonating with ALL of our hearts.

========================== reminiscing ==========================
Many years ago, whilst shaking from exhaustion and fear, balanced upon the edge of a 2x4 nailed 50' up to a tree ( on a mountain top ) -- I was challenged to the very depths of my soul. It was a "ropes" course, and that blessed teacher who ran it -- totally got my number -- and wasn't going to let me get by with anything easy.

For almost all, the challenge was climbing in "belay" harness up that very scary tree, but not for me. For most, once on top of that 2x4 -- the challenge was springing into the air, out over nothing at all for 6' or so -- to grab a big steel ring hanging from a higher branch. But not for me.

That teacher could see that that was not much of a challenge for me -- so he decided that I needed something really special -- and because I so wanted to swing from that ring, he had me hooked for the 'time of my life' ( several years later I did Tony Robbins' "fire walk", which was good, but not as … ).

Whilst most conducted their "tree trial" in a matter of a few minutes, I was called to a "higher" standard ( of cathectic purging ), so little did I suspect, and so much did I learn. What was my challenge you ask ?

I was up that tree in a flash, and then awaited the teacher's OK to jump for that shinning ring. My patience, stamina, and will, was to be really "sorely" tested that afternoon, as he decided on my fate. His gradient steeply stacked another Mt. on top of me, for he had my team of fellow "travelers" turn their backs toward me. He told that team, that each of them had to be convinced of my complete sincerity, in order for them to turn toward me and then for them to see me to jump.

I was trapped. So I struggled with myself, and after 30 minutes or so, I was still unable to convince the entire team -- and my desperately twittering balance and hold on that tree's little nailed ladder -- was giving way to exhaustion. I alternating my feet upon that 2x4, I tried to kick my leg over a branch for a rest, but that next branch was to high and my strength was waning fast.

That very clever teacher had challenged me to break through decades of superficiality, imagined understanding, and hard-nosed idiotic rationalizations, and my team wasn't going to let me go easily either. One dude held out so long, I was close to passing out -- all during that 45 minutes time my words were pouring forth in every imaginable combination -- to prove my sincerity.

What was it that finally allowed him to KNOW, and turn toward me ?

Well, the answer is right here above this post, as U-C-D so ably reminded me of this earlier moment. I had to scream to the universe that I needed people, friends, them -- in my life, that I needed to no longer be alone -- that real meaning was only from the mirroring I felt in others ( like namaste ).

With the teacher's rather dry comment "if you open your eyes, you'll see that they're all watching you now", I smiled, shouted something guttural, jumped, grabbed, and swung to my hearts greatest delight ever.

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

P I S S A N T N O B O D Y,

That's sad, but understandable.

Most people are not aware that their perceptions and awareness ( of being aware ) actually determines the world that they live in|_____ CHOOSE __ BETTER __ THOUGHTS _____|

|_______ TO __ LIVE __ BETTER _______|Reality is only one of the many possible illusions

Namaste « Presence »

veracity---- I feel like I'm in a maze---I keep tripping into a site just after you post. OH well, maybe you know the bread crumbs trail is working after a fashion and you'll check back as well. I may sign off and watch a good Netflicks film. Keep on sharing your inspirations!

I love it! " reality is only of many possible illusions."
So let's all get real by getting more loving.

S T A R,

Well, that's pretty close

Dear Siouxrose,
You and I have already 'connected' outside of these boards; I almost added you to my wee list in the post above, but as we are so often are on the same wavelength, I thought it might be a tad superfluous! ;)

Dear Namaste/Veracity,
Thankyou. I'm glad you laughed! Here's more on 'upward movements' which you may appreciate: "When you get to the top of the mountain, keep on climbing." (Zen)
(And btw, I did enjoy your: "Please do not push the river, for it flows by itself.")

Dear PissantNobody,
I can appreciate where you are coming from, - I was there too, briefly, (many moons ago). But I found that place too hard, too arid, too inclement. Nothing much seemed to really grow there!

Yes, there are ideas, some of them probably good ones, but I feel (personally) that it all comes from the 'Head' , ~ and too often any aspects of HEART get booted aside and trampled into the dust, lost under the cruel wheels of dogma and over-harsh, inhumane critique?
Self-righteousness and lack of humility often kicks in as well?

Yes, we need to be able to discriminate, -to be discerning, to reason well, but where is that *essential* spring which feeds our Souls? Where is the genuine *love and compassion* for our fellow beings, --without which we can easily become as callous, cruel and intolerant (and even murderous) as those we pit ourselves against?

My personal choice was to leave the often heartless world of political ideology to itself, and try to connect to the universe (and thus fellow occupants of planet Earth) with my *heart*, as well as my head.
~ The two seem to make ideal travelling companions!

These are not 'dreamy thoughts' and so I do not need to be 'shaken awake' (or so I believe!)
And re: "...Get off your lotus flower and actually DO something loving..." Well, -were you one of my students, or one of my psychotherapy clients suffering (eg) deep emotional trauma from childhood abuse etc, you would find me very well 'awake', and loving / caring, and able to heal and give practical help on many levels. Is that at all useful I wonder?

And as to the tone of your post above, any insults run from me like water off a gull's back, so it's maybe wasted effort on your part? Rudeness will sour only *you*, good Sir, but not me.
And, if your deep / sincere concern is to help improve the world, might I point out that insulting your 'brothers and sisters' is no way to win converts?

Btw Comrade PN: You probably are not aware that the concept of Communism was originally, - (quite literally) a *Divinely Inspired* idea, which was then picked up by our friends Karl Marx, et al.
There are major teachers in this world (you likely won't have heard of these particular ones) who are living in a *Commune*, and fully endorse harmonious communal living, and it was they who seeded this concept. - Shame it got a bit polluted en route? Just like many religions and good inventions, though worthy at the beginning, they often go sour when we semi-skilled tyros mangle them up!

I hope you enjoy yr life's work Mr PN, and are happy with your lot. But should you ever feel 'something is missing' in yr scheme of things, might I recommend attention to 'the Heart'?

With care,
xx
U-C-D
__________

Dear StaroftheSea,
I've often thought I'd like to chat with you once in a while, outside of these boards. Should you see this note, feel free to email?
deepart2000 (at) hotmail . com -should find the mark!
x

Dear PissantNobody,

I laughed out loud when I read, "...because your defeatism..." (etc) -because I'm afraid you are quite incorrect on that point! I am VERY far from ever being 'defeatist'!
I have been solidly at work trying to change this world (and, -most importantly- *myself*, btw!) for the last 35 years, and such is my strong commitment, I'll continue on that path till my dying day.
'Defeat' is not in my vocabulary m'dear.

~~~ Except of course for: 'De feet on de end of dese legs' !! :)

Please know that I am *Very Passionate* about ending the plight of, --not just the US-bullied / abused Iraqi citizens-- but the unnecessary pain and anguish of ALL human beings.

Maybe you and I are essentially coming from the same place Mr PN? --in that we are both very committed to trying to help this world, but have decided upon differing ways to approach the problems?
For my part, I have come to the conclusion that INNER rather than OUTER changes may have a more lasting and radical effect. By which I mean, if we first radically alter our INNER lives, (our consciousness, -our hearts, as well as our minds) then the outer is automatically changed?

To begin on the *outer*, and then try to work inwards, is another approach, but I feel one which stands less chance of success (if any) and takes a lot longer?
And, -practically speaking- what hope is there of ever summoning all the peoples of this world under any one political (or religious) banner?
We humans all have certain things in common, but regional, tribal, linguistic, temperamental, as well as spiritual / evolutional differences, are hard to cram into one narrow political, philosophical, or religious viewpoint / faction?
= "One man's Muck-Donalds, is another man's poison?"

*One political size fits all* ? I can't actually believe in that. But where ALL humans can meet is the recognition of our common biological and other basic needs. If we start from that place, -and add a healthy quotient of love and mutual respect thrown into the mix, maybe divisions and separatism creep in less, and more harmony can then come into being?
I wonder if you see my reasoning here?

So I'm afraid I can't agree with your bold assertion that: "There is no solution short of international socialism" -but I respect the fact you hold that view.

[And yes, I am acquainted with Rosa L.'s works.]

At root, I see how often the various political groupings, (as well as the various religious labels) so often divide people Mr PN.
In my time I have witnessed SO many factions breaking into still smaller factions, - and soon the 'International Black Socialist Workers Gay Anarcho-Syndicalists' are shouting angry abuse at the 'Anglo-Agnostic Libertarian Revolutionary Eco-warrior White Heterosexuals Bloc' ... (-or whatever!)

~ whilst just down the road, the 'Cathlo-Islamic Cartesian Church of the 15th-Day Jehovahs Witless' people have seriously fallen out with the ... ...
(etc, etc)

I chose not to be under ANY labels at all, as I don't like all the separatism that comes about. Instead I choose to look for the points of UNITY in human beings, and try to relate to people without any crude overlays and labels getting in the way.

So if I met you in a social situation, I would *LISTEN* to you Mr PN, and hear what you had to say, and see if there were edges on which we could *MEET* -- at least we could begin to relate to each other that way?

But if I call myself a '13th-Day Communist Lesbo-Fundamental Neocon Evangello-Hegelian Dialecticalist' and you passionately abhor such 'running-dog revisionism' (or whatever!) then we soon fall to disputation, and the relationship soon gets divisive, maybe even hostile?

~Daft examples I know, but do you see what I am trying to say here?

BTW: I don't "...noodle with my patients".
~ We therapists generally prefer whole grain rice over those wheat products! :)

And have you *smiled* at all today Mr PN? [~ said sincerely].
There are so many supra-urgent problems for us to solve in this world, but nonetheless, I feel that even as we are in the 'thick of battle' with the maniacal dark forces, there's real advantages in enjoying some love and laughter together as we work towards shaping a better world.

The wider and broader (ie: more *inclusive*) we can print our 'hymn sheet', the more everyone, everywhere, can sing from it.
~I'm open to all intelligent options / opinions, but personally, I don't yet see which narrow political faction actually achieves that beautiful outcome.

And Buddha once usefully said, "Better to light a candle, than curse the darkness."

I hope your day is an uplifting one brother PN,
xx

U-C-D

U-C-D,

Thank you, but credit to Barry Stevens ( a fellow enlightened therapist ):"DOn't Push the River"

… … … … … … … __ P - N __… … … … … … …

Your appellation and tenor are much as I was, in years past, although I've continued on various spiritual paths since early college days ( with TM ).

Perhaps you've not experienced that moment, when coming out of meditation, where the world around is transformed completely?

For me, every color, hue, shadow, sound, form, and nature itself -- shouted new vibrant levels of perception -- as if I had entered into a high intensity VIVID,
textured, invigorating,
_c o l o r_ movieAs CONTRASTED to my 1-hr ago previous existencefrom a dry, stale,
mumbling, boring, dull, flat,
__ b l a c k __ & __ w h i t e __movie. __

Perhaps, I was blessed with lifetimes of diligent service in India ( as I've been told ), or it was all an illusion -- doesn't matter, and I don't care.

That experience is far better than any state of being that I've ever experiencedTo awaken and see the universe for the first time

It appear to me that you rate your spiritual existence as mostly irrelevant to your current pursuits, and that is fine with me.

I choose to perceive myself as primarily a spiritual being, that has in addition a physical existence. For me this opens up many doors otherwise invisible, to invoke changes in my world through non-causal non-physical means. Perhaps you believe that you're primarily a physical being, that once had a spiritual experience or two -- and decided that that pursuit was as you say a "… narcissistic focus is inappropriate in a world where most people do not have the resources"

I choose to believe that I have more power and can do more pro-actively, through my words, thoughts, and beliefs -- to create a new unprecedented CONTEXT -- that comes out pf a profound sense of the oneness of existence and unseen connections.

Everyone's mileage will vary …

… and I totally agree with U-C-D, that your passion for life and committed purpose, places you squaring on the side of those creating a better world through purposeful lives. Thank you for sharing your views.

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

Hi again Mr PN,
--this is the 'flawed' one again! (though happily not yet 'floored') :)

Thankyou for your considered response, I was hoping we could converse on more amicable terms.

You write: "I am all for inner development, but usually that seems to go on forever..."
Well, in purely *spiritual* terms you are absolutely correct there! Spiritual development / purification does indeed go on-and-on! We humans don't completely purify our 'shadow selves' overnight! Some purport that it takes many lives!

And this purification process is bifurcated ::: in that, we both try to sort out the junk in our own 'psychic attic' / backyard, ~ even as we try to act usefully in the wider world.

Please let me assure you Mr PN, that this dealing with our inner demons is no "escape" process!
- indeed, to try to *run away from our inner demons* is the *greater* escape / mistake! (vide: all of the poor dears relentlessly inebriated with drugs and drink).
It's usually darned hard work, -tackling all of our inner junk and dealing with it successfully!
[If you have tried this at all, you will know what I mean.]

Re: "You are needed on the front lines, comrade, and it is only there that your development will be truly realized!"
Well, we disagree just a tad on that one PN. I am indeed 'on the front lines' – and I deal daily with the cries for help from those in great (internal) distress.
Then again, I am also trying to help many folk on the OUTER levels, who likewise are perturbed with a variety of troubles. ~ I work on various fronts, and am often up against a variety of demons!
= My personal 'development' continues, even as I am on the 'front line' of life!

And please be assured that this work is never ever 'narcissistic'!
Maybe consider that if co-workers are healthier in mind, body and spirit, they are then more successful in their overall effectiveness?
I have worked with faaaar too many folk who were ostensibly 'revolutionary' in their outlook, and who attempted to change things, but often their inner demons kept them from successful conclusions, --they often blew it, due to personal shortcomings!

Yes Mr PN, we agree that *exterior* changes are very much needed (sorry you feel I didn't address that point). I was trying to say that I believe that if the INTERNAL revolution happens first, then, -as night follows day- the EXTERNAL changes would then naturally follow after...

___________________

Quote: "If not global socialist revolution, what external changes do you propose?"
Answer: I propound that when we are happier, healthier beings, in mind, body and spirit, the external changes / revolution will not be wholly designed by either you or I Senor!
--It would likely be a more 'organic' process, eg: less structured, ~ wherein people make useful changes to their internal and external lives, - viz: appropriate, pragmatic changes, which then supplied their various needs, each based on informed / autonomous wishes, as well as the agreed wider societal codes...

[Except for very necessary female emancipation, ancient Viking / Icelandic societies seemed to have got this fairly well sorted, how come we lost the knack?]

In this model, they would no longer be so subject to any vile 'mess media' which attempts to shape peoples' decisions based on crass modalities like 'fashions', vacuous whims, or via indoctrination, bent religions, and all that gunge, because their value systems would instead be based on refined ethics, humanitarian / cooperative and spiritual principles and verities, - each uncorrupted by capitalist dictates.
All this maybe guided by the likes of Henry Thoreau and Ghandi, MLK and Confucius, blent with Christ's 'Sermon on the Mount', Agni Yoga's wisdom, Buddha's Dhammapada, and a bit of Marxism thrown in?
Why not! ~~ And plenty more of that useful stuff besides!

The wiser ways forward are already known and delineated, -- our challenge seems to be how best to help people free their minds from the warping they have undergone at the hands of disastrous media barons, duff educational systems, barbarous governmental leaders, and various warped religions?

If we can succeed in helping our fellow beings to free their minds from those malignant fetters, then I feel that would be the inception of the 'revolution' both you and I vision as a wholesome necessity?

Respectfully, - from a 'flawed' co-worker! :)

U-C-D
__________

Ps:
Dear Veracity,
(-just seen yr post)
Re "...blessed with lifetimes of diligent service in India" I could well believe that to be true, ~ you have the flavor of an 'Older Soul' !
xx

PissantNobody July 13th, 2008 1:06 pm

By golly, even if you are wrong, I admire your consistency!

__ P - N __,

You ask "What is the route that will take us to the highest possible MATERIAL nirvana?"Perhaps you have been mistaken where the 'center of mass' of BE'ing human resides?

Perhaps individually ( and collectively ), one's inner life is the architect of the outer life? For the thinking brain, we know that it struggles with presence, BE'ing, and existence -- as these are to it mere conceptualizations ( purely mental forms ) to it.

Have you ever considered that ALL of life is endowed with actual BE'ingness, that exists as consciousness and enlivens everything? Perhaps your brain ( with concrete acceptance only of forms ) sees the null or empty set, as equivalent to anything w/o form ? If so, what is outer space, what is stillness, what is pure energy or a thought ?

There is a chasm or rift in the brain's intrinsic ( and conditioned attachments, systems of thoughts = beliefs ) patterns of thought, and that is where we must cross -- to reach the domain of MINDFULNESS, or consciousness -- BE'ing aware of one's own awareness.

You express "To think that, in some sweet by and by when everybody's demons are tamed, we will all spontaneously know what to do is a sure recipe for failure.

That is why I say that your approach is dangerous, and must be attacked as lazy/cowardly agnosticism that will leave the imperialist tyrrants in power."

To many, it's not about taming the beasts, but developing the skills of consciousness to sever the too long enduring associations and attachments that egoic thinking demands we focus upon, for in many ways ALL human beings are "insane" when the beast of thinking as master takes over all of the space within one's mind.

( 1. ) Consider the discernment of reactive and counter-productive thought patterns, and that these "entities" are a natural automatic mechanism for living one's life -- be it at a very limited level of consciousness. When the mind functions in automatic mode, events trigger reactions like hunger survival, although underneath there's a current of natures ( genetic ) imprint to propagate and nurture the next generations ( creating civilizations to support prolonged child learning in a safe environment ). I call this basic package mode, "MIND_as_MASTER", for it as we'll see takes over control of our lives in a subtle way.

( 2. ) When one actively patterns new thoughts, intentions, pays attention, and tasks purposeful ACTIONS, the MIND is shifted into a significantly more powerful mode, which I refer to as "MIND_as_SLAVE". The programing for a better "MATERIAL nirvana", might be one example, that allows our entire existence to act somewhat like a missile's navigation systems, as it is always seeking that desired target. Considerations, circumstances, obstacles -- are all overcome through focused intentions -- and goals are reached ( skills are learned ).

The OPPOSITE mode ( 1. ) is still always there "MIND_as_MASTER", and whenever one's intentions drops from MINDFULNESS, the auto-pilot will smoothly take over w/o missing a beat. The reality we live within is littered with chaotic outcomes of reactive patterns, following from little or no intention or planning.

( 3. ) It's actually insane, when one considers what happens -- as the "MIND_as_MASTER" still has the intrinsic navigation system -- it just has no specific target to aim for and to empower purposeful actions toward. You might ask, " so where does it get a target from ? ", when we are so careless to ignore feeding it one we desire ? The answer is one of those secrets everyone needed to be told, before all else, but that doesn't happen -- because we're mostly all on auto-pilot.

Our minds, being primarily devices for survival ( at this level ) -- will desperately LATCH ONTO almost anything, as the navigation system is just a ( very hungry ) mechanism in itself. Imagine what occurs while watching TV or standing in a line waiting for something, or while in traffic. If one isn't actively propagating a pattern of what to do next1, next2, … -- whatever floats past the "limited" attention window, gets grabbed as a new random target. The autonomous systems all gear up and launch actions and other thinking to make that outcome more possible, whatever it is. At some point, we hope, our awareness comes to the realization "that isn't what I want", and new directions of new targets are sought.

( 4. ) This makes our individual lives appear like a drunk stumbling along, or a missile that gets half-way and turns back -- again and again -- all over the map with false starts, back-tracking, resting, restarts, stops, re-targeting etc … until we eventually get focused again with out intentions and attention

So controlling the most powerful of mental machine ( ever created ) is not all mamby pamby, as w/o active control and targeting -- it just goes off half cocked in every possible direction, bumping sometimes into "good" things, and sometimes not so "good" -- which sets up more conditioning patterns to revert to when "MIND_as_MASTER" has to take over again.

So this brings us right back to your idea that "If your 'spiritual being' reaches a level of awareness where you care about the material world and how it ruins lives, then you must counter the pro-communist perspective with an alternative."

So perhaps "counter the pro-communist perspective" is simply to think the intention, and maintain that focus of intention ( targeting ), and when that mindfulness drops as it will, just learn to RECOGNIZE THAT, and then pick up the pieces and assert control again, to run the "MIND_as_SLAVE".

Yep it that simple -- but it's far from being EASY

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

__ P - N __,

Consciousness or MINDFULNESS, is that wee bit of space that the automatic mind has yet to totally dominate.

Spiritual practices, like meditation or simply being aware of one's breathing actually __ G R O W __ more consciousness,

which can be conceptualized as an awareness 'of being aware', or a way to detect when the auto-pilot has taken over.___ Consciousness is likened to an upgraded auto-pilot,
___ that replaces the survival mode's
___ UN-consciously reactive one

Dear PN,
My time is invariably very short, (I have *tons* of responsibilities, --to a wide swathe of differing folk) so please excuse brevity:::

I'm a tad surprised you didn't 'get' what I was trying to say before, and we would probably have to meet face to face for me to successfully address your comments and questions.
I will try to make this one point succinct::

**"If we change our consciousness, we then change the world."**

Does that aid your understanding?
If you wish for a *method* to achieve that outcome ::: think writing, think education, -think about all the very many other ways to beneficially help change human consciousness!

Your various references to things like 'mental masturbation', and so on, are a bit lost on me, as I have no real idea what such phrases *actually* mean, but I kinda suspect you hope to further denigrate and disparage some spiritual practices? –Or any other thing which you have not yet understood?

Well you may! -- we are free to thus express if we will!
However, may I express a caring sort of thought: ~ which is a kindly caution that, if you 'throw the baby out with the bathwater', you will then find you have disposed of a great deal which, - to date, (please excuse) *you have not yet understood* and which would likely *help you* a great deal.
~ And so that maybe smacks of an arrogance at work here?

I find that my arrogant students are the hardest ones to teach, because they 'already know it all' and thus have nothing more to learn!
I am not an American by birth, so am able to look at the USA with a slightly different perspective, and that viewpoint (most unfortunately!) shows both myself, and many another being around the world, that the USA *does* seem to have (alongside it's many good points) a recurrent problem with arrogance, ~as something of a national trait?

The current administration epitomises that to the Nth degree!

Okay, 'fraid I must leave the topic for now as I have to care for some people.

Good luck on yr path, PN, may it yet reveal lots more than you thus far have discovered!
(-- I know that for my part that I have *oceans* of stuff yet to learn!)

xx
U-C-D